Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Maureen Lipman, Women in security, Female birdsong

Episode Date: May 2, 2026

Dame Maureen Lipman joins Chloe Tilley to talk about Allegra, the joyful new musical play that begins a nationwide tour just two days after her 80th birthday. She tells us about playing a woman who finds happiness in a world that can't quite handle it, and the physical demands of singing and dancing eight times a week.The use of illegal, unregistered children's homes in England has surged by more than 370% in five years, according to a new report, Hidden Children: An investigation into Unregistered Children’s Homes, published by Commonweal Housing and written by Public First. Nuala is joined by Fraser McLean, Policy and Communications Manager for the charity Commonweal Housing and Rebekah Pierre, Deputy Director of the charity Article 39.Simone Pennant, the founder and CEO of The TV Collective, has just been presented with the 2026 BAFTA Television Craft Special Award at this year’s ceremony. It was in recognition for her outstanding contribution in championing diversity within the screen industries. Is it time to retire the term 'bouncer'? We hear from Satia Rai, CEO of the International Professional Security Association, who told the largest gathering of the security profession in Europe this week that we should ditch it in favour of 'guardian' to help women feel safer, and to attract more women into the job. We also get the view of Tee, a female door supervisor at a Birmingham bar.And as the spring dawn chorus reaches its peak, a new book is challenging long held assumptions about birdsong, and revealing the overlooked role of female birds. Researcher Lucy McRobert, collaborator for the new book, The Sound of Birding: Second Edition, joins Anita to tune our ears to a richer, more complex soundscape.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty McQuire

Hello and welcome to the program. Coming up, a BAFTA-winning TV producer and change maker on why she still has to silence her inner saboteur voice, why some of the most vulnerable children in society are being temporarily housed in caravans and Airbnbs, and could renaming the nightclub bouncer help make the role more female-friendly. Plus, we'll hear the unsung heroines of the dawn chorus, female birds.

But first, in just a fortnight, Dame Mauree Lippman turns 80. And how does a Dame celebrate such a milestone birthday? By kicking off a nationwide tour of a joyful new musical play called Allegra, in which she'll be acting, singing and dancing eight times a week. When she came into the Woman's Hour studio earlier this week,

she told Chloe why the title role appealed to her. Well, I suppose you'd call her neurodiversant now. She is just relentlessly happy in a world of, as you know, vitriol cancellation, hatred, abuse. And she's just chirpy and she doesn't really look after herself. She lives on her own, but she's part of the play, is the brother. And it sort of examines sibling relationships and the brother trying to get a carer to come and live.

And she doesn't want it. She says, I lovely living on my own. She's got one grapefruit in the fridge and then nothing but empty tins. And yet she thinks life is great and she goes and sings in Indian restaurants and they have to throw her out several times because there's a revolving door. And nobody wants her kind of normality. They said, we just want you to be normal. Now what happens in life when you meet someone who's, you know, too shammergy short of a picnic, all those expressions? It's annoying.

And so the idea is that really they just want for her own good to kind of bring her down. She's got an orchestra playing in her head, and every so often, she sort of just drifts off into a song, which is quite hard to do. Also, sometimes she just sings, you know, the carer says to her at one point, well, is that all right? And her response is, that's all right, Mama, that's all right for me. That's all right, Mama, anything you do. Oh, she says, you like to sing. Oh, yes. endlessly. I don't care if anyone's here or they're not here.

You know, it just makes me feel good. And she is endlessly joyful, isn't she? Even when people are reacting differently to her, that doesn't stop that joy. No, no, because she says, no, you know, the policeman who comes after her, says to her, you know, nobody wants a song in the petrol station. They want a bag of Doritos and some fuel. And she says, well, no, this is the thing. People don't ask for a song because they don't know they need one. Did you, why did you choose to take this role?

Was it because it was a slightly different portrayal to maybe the negativity around at the moment? It's joyful. It makes people view maybe people who see the world slightly differently in a different way. Well, this is written by Peter Quilter. His play glorious was about Florence Foster Jenkins, you know, the woman who thought she could sing. And we did nine months of that. And so ever since then, he's been sending me his plays, and I've been sort of commenting. But this one struck a chord because, to be perfectly honest, Chloe, I am happy.

I'm very happy. I am going to be 80, which is ridiculous. I got married in September to a beautiful human being. Thank God my kids are okay. And the world around me is this vicious, you know, the morass of people. We won't go into anti-Semitism, but you know what I'm saying. And the leaders of our society are just truly tyrants and horrid people. Not necessarily in this country, but he's trying his best.

And so it just seems to me how it's a bit smug to be happy because there's so much pain in the world. And so you pull back a bit on saying, oh, you know, life is good. And so I thought this would be, thank you. This would be a nice play to take around the country. I don't really want to leave home at all. Well, I wanted to ask you about that. If you've recently got married, is that really hard to sort of up sticks and tour around? I think it will be.

And David, my husband said, you know, I'll come with you to Brighton when you open. I said, no, you won't because you won't like what you see. You won't like me at all. Don't be with me on an opening night. Well, I mean, I shall just, I'll be, you know, a gibbering wreck. but we'll get by. We'll get by. And I'm going to places like Aberdeen

where I've never been and playing bath where I've been a lot and Malvin where I always go to the Morgan factory and watch car being built. This is the good thing. It's a good way to celebrate

a ridiculously aged birthday but while I can and also after six years in Corrie, which I've loved. Evelyn is a great character. They didn't kill me. They didn't electrocute me in the bath. I can go back.

But I want to do something different. New challenge. New challenge. And to be honest, I don't get offered that much. I know that sounds. Really? I work a lot. I do work a lot.

But I don't get offered a Netflix series or, you know, something that might really challenge me. Why do you think that? Because I don't think you'd really buy me as a detective, really. and one of those people with a battered hat and a car that you have to kickstart. I don't think you'd accept me as that. I'm not really that interested in autopsies or games of thrones and things. I think, I don't know why not.

But when something comes along that just actually touches you, then get on with it and do it and don't complain. At least you're working and making people laugh. And it sounds challenging though. I mean, eight performances a week. You're singing, you're dancing. you're acting. Is that going to take a physical strain? I'm just thinking, and you're travelling around the country. I'm not talking about your age. I'm just talking as a human being

working that much. Yes, it's going to be tough. But you think about the actors who made the Ealing comedies. They were all in a show in the evening. They got up at six o'clock. They went out to Elstree. They'd clown about all day. And then they came back and did, oh, darling, anyone for tennis in the evening. So we do. It keeps us young. We keep going until the end of the road and there's some Sean Phillips is on the road, she's 90 and Judy is still giving what she can and being

in theatres talking about her life and I think we just like we don't want to drop out before drop off the twig before the twig falls on us How do you feel about the singing opposed to the acting? Ah!

I have sung in the past in wonderful town, in thoroughly modern Millie, in a little night music in Oklahoma. I've never been very good, but I get by. If the character sings, I sing, who knows how good Allegra is?

At one point, she says to her brother, do you think I could have made it as a professional singer? And he says, honestly, of course. No. He says, all right, dishonestly. I think you could have been Maria Callas. And that's the truth.

We do singing in the rain. We do some sort of fairly, because sometimes she just sings out loud, like the one I take, the Elvis one. But sometimes she actually slips. And this is what the brother's worried about. She imagines she's actually on a Hollywood sound stage and she starts dancing around and things happen in the room.

It's going to be a challenge, you know, to sit. Because when I get the steps right, and Stephen Mear is the choreoperate, when I get the steps right, I stop singing. What from shock that you've got it right? Yes. That's wonderful. That'll be part of it, though. What I'm interested to know what you feel about the portrayal of Allegra in this,

because it is about a woman trying to hold on to life. Society, the way we view older people, and actually talk about people aging within society is something that isn't necessarily handled terribly well at times. And was it a deliberate decision of yours that the idea of showing a joyful older woman is just a different, view on the world? Well, I must have thought that when I said I would do it. Because here I am exhausted. There's no tub thumping in this. It's slightly frivolous, but it does make a poignant point that when you try to bring down a person who is eccentric, when you try to make them normal because society wants them to be a particular way, then what you get is perhaps not what you want.

and that's the brother's journey. Because then he's frightened to death when she's morbid and sitting in a chair like a sack of potatoes. So, yes, I mean, what's fascinating, I've been doing a bit of volunteering with my granddaughter at a care home. And they can't wait to hear her. They love having, you know, one of the problems of society is the fact that we're not living in groups. where with the old, the young, the middle, the, you know, this is where we get a proper view of life's journey. Who expects to be 80 for goodness sake? You know, I'm 46.

It's ridiculous. And when I think of them, both my parents died at 80, so this probably will be my last broadcast. No, absolutely not. But it sounds wonderful. And of course, Woman's Hour is turning 80 this year. Is it? Yes. Oh, can I be your mascot?

It could be a joint birthday. Chloe speaking to Dame Maureen Lippmann there and her play Allegra opens in Brighton on the 12th of May before touring the UK. Now, the use of illegal, unregistered children's homes in England has surged by more than 370% in five years, according to analysis of Ofsted data in a new report. Hidden children, an investigation into unregistered children's homes

is published by Commonwealth Housing and written by Public First. The Care Standards Act 2000 legally requires all children's homes to be registered with Ofsted, the regulatory body. But, in the worst case scenarios, vulnerable children are being temporarily placed in caravans and Airbnbs when Offsted inspected homes cannot be found. Private companies have been accused of charging local governments exorbitant fees, in some cases, £30,000 a week to look after children in unsuitable settings. Well, to find out why this is happening and what can you. be done about it, Nula was joined by Rebecca Pierre, Deputy Director of the Children's Rights Charity Article 39, and by Fraser McLean, Policy and Communications Manager for the charity

Common Wheel Housing, who began by setting out the parameters of their report. So this report is about unregistered care settings, as you mentioned, so they are illegal because they're unregistered. There's no line of sight, no official oversight. I know that Rebecca's worked on the issue of unregulated homes. So there are some legal, sort of legal. allowed unregulated care settings for 16 and 17-year-olds who might be moved out of a care home after their 16th birthday into supported housing, shared housing with adults.

There is a debate that I know Rebecca's been a sort of vocal participant in that says that is actually inappropriate as well. But this report was really our desire to find out more about the hidden sector, the illegal sector. That have not been registered with Austin. They're not getting inspections to see if they're appropriate. So tell me about the main findings that you feel. found. Yeah, well, so

calling them illegal care homes this whole time, but over the last few months I think it's become pretty clear that they're not really homes, they're makeshift, as you say, they're makeshift settings. You know, they're care staff taking the kid to an Airbnb or a budget hotel room. It might be existing sort of supported housing that is then

turned into a sort of, you know, child's setting, but it's not really for that. And there's a number of sort of drivers of this that have caused that increase. And just as we try to visualise the places where these children are, Who would be looking after in those homes? Care staff.

So they might be council staff. They might be hired care staff. They will be DBS check. But, you know, one report we heard of was, you know, a very, very, very vulnerable young girl, you know, mid-teens, you know, two security guards with DBS checks in a hotel room. And you just sort of think, right, this is the kind of back foot last-minute procurement of these settings

that mean that you're scrambling and the cost becomes astronomical as a result. But the reason people are. scrambling is because there is no other place for that child to go. Right, or the other places the legal sector have waded up and said no. I mean, I think one of the findings was the children that often end up in these settings are on the acute end of the risk, very, very vulnerable kids, maybe very traumatised, quite complex cases. And there's a shortage of the kind of specialist provision that they would need.

And there's a reluctance from the legal sector in who have to take on liability, you know, to take on some of the most at-risk kids. They would rather have the vacancy than take on, you know, the child who keeps running away from the foster placement. Why? Why do they say no? Well, they are, they take liability for their existing residents. So if they deem that this child might be a danger to themselves and others

and they don't have maybe the staffing in place or the facilities, they are terrified of a damaging offstead review. They will have to weigh it up. And also a lot of them are private providers that will have some sort of risk threshold as well, right? But they can say no. They're not obligated. They're not obligated. And if the state wants to obligate providers, it would have to do something like take on sort of shared liability but not be on site.

And I think it's one issue. And I think one thing that's really important is, you know, a lot of these kids, instead of being in the real sort of specialist, you know, really good supported places there in that, you know, might need a two or three to one staffing ratio, they end up in these, you know, very, very, very. very sort of improvised settings. The outcomes for kids in care are pretty awful as well known. There's a lot of homelessness risk when they age out. They're committing crime or end up with substance issues. They're very unsafe settings sometimes anyway. The idea that the most traumatized or vulnerable or in a very sympathetic term,

challenging cases are in these settings is a great concern. I mean, it sounds like some of the most vulnerable could be the least supported. Yeah, in places, yes, because they'll because they need the most, amount of provision, or they need that sort of most support, and I think what the report shows is that there is a shortage of that provision and that, you know, we didn't aim

for local elections, but with a whole load of new councillors probably coming in in the next few weeks, I think local authorities are going to have to get to the grips with who their good providers are and what their challenges are very, very quickly. You know, I mentioned a figure at the top. I know it's made headlines as well, that it could cost 30,000 pounds

a week to care for a child in an unsuitable setting. How could that be? I think that in a way I'm almost glad at the sort of intense cost because if councils were doing this to save money, it would be a really insidious development. I think that kind of incredible cost shows that councils just get desperate and the providers know they can charge what they like

because the councillors already now basically acting unlawfully by being willing to place a child there. So it's a 4 to 1 staffing ratio. They're paying for an Airbnb on a nightly rate. And also a provider anecdotally, we heard that, you know, a provider can basically say, well, you know, this child we think is at risk of self-harm. So we need another staff member. And then they can just add to the cost.

And the council is terrified of placement breakdown because then they're back to square one. So you would be paying for every person who's involved in taking care of that child? Paying for the whole thing. And there'll be profit taken home there as well. And, you know, 20 grand a week is, what, a million quid a year? And that's not unusual. I think the children's commissioner, Rachel DeSuzer, has done really, really good data transparency stuff on this the last couple of years. I think in the last one that she did, which was maybe four or five months ago, I think it was 38 cases were per child per year over a million quid.

Just some more details on that report that she published in January, found 669 children wearing unregistered home on one day in September 2025 that she pulled out that day and looked at it. Rebecca, let me bring you in here. Were you surprised by what Fraser is saying? Not at all. We've been sounding the alarm for years. I mean, it's been a perfect storm of increased need. So we've seen childhood mental health skyrocket, especially since the pandemic. We've seen poverty, which we know increases the risk of children going into care. And so we've also seen what we call contextual safeguarding issues. So that's where even if, you know, parents are able to fully support children in the home, there are, outside factors, organised criminal gangs, child sexual exploitation, digital risks and so on, which means risks are higher. And so within all of this, there's been a real soft-touch approach from the government. It beggars belief that there's been no criminal convictions whatsoever in relation to these settings. When you say soft-touch, what do you mean? What we mean by that is

the deterrents are simply not there. Offsted has sent out warning letters. but only a very small percentage. I believe it's about 6% of those were then responded to. And so, you know, you have these profiteers who are essentially making a mockery of local authorities. They have the monopoly and nothing's been done. We do have a number of statements in relation to this. An Ofsted spokesperson said too many children are being placed in unlawful settings

where they're at risk of harm. The use of placements must stop. Offsted is working hard to investigate unregistered children's homes and compel them to either register or close. Another from the local government association that I want to read. It says no council wants to place a child in an unregistered setting. However, a lack of appropriate homes means that provision is sometimes not meeting the children's needs. The rising cost of placements also means that less funding is available for earlier support for

children and families. Councils need sufficient, long-term funding to invest into family help, child protection, and child in care and care lever services while greater financial oversight of the largest providers is also needed to ensure that profits are invested into supporting children. Now there's a lot in those two statements but I suppose one thing strikes me

and I'd be curious for your thoughts on this Rebecca. There's a difficult choice if today a child with complex needs presents and there is no provider willing to take in that child in a registered setting or an offstead regulation. placement, the child has to go somewhere or else, what is it, leave them to fend for themselves? I think that's a really well-worn argument and of course directors of children's services are in really difficult situations but ultimately so are the children who need those settings and I'm speaking of someone with lived experience of a setting like this and I can't tell you how intimidating

those can be. I think it's really easy for leaders to, you know, sit on the high horse and give these platitudes. But ultimately, there need to be investing in homegrown provision that really meets those children's needs. I think a lot of the time, when we hear horrific stories like these, people kind of turn the other way and think, oh, that's the care sector it's expected. But if we were to think about children of the same age and compare it to the education sector, you know, it would be unthinkable that society would allow teenagers in high school to be taught by teachers with criminal convictions, to be taught in a classroom with other unsafe adults to be taught outside in a caravan with no checks. Of course, that would be

horrific, but because it's care, you know, that there is that lack of care. Tell me a little bit more if you are able about your own experience if you're comfortable. I'm more than happy doing this and I think part of the reason is because it's so hidden and out of sight, I'm happy to bring that light and make this less of a statistic. So I was placed in a hostel, which was in the red light district of a very poor town up north with not a lot of kind of support for children and young people at all. There were about 30 residents between the ages of 16 and 25. So, you know, already you have girls who are in year 11 with men in their mid-20s who have just come out of prison who themselves are vulnerable.

The very first thing that anyone said to me when I walked into the hostel was, if you want any green, you know, where I am. So, you know, within... Meaning if you want drugs, I'm down the corridor. So, you know, within minutes, as a young person offered drugs, I was once in hospital for four days, seriously unwell before any staff member even realized that I was gone.

And that would just be unthinkable in a... in a children's home that's regulated or foster placement. The other thing I will quickly say is I remember doing my A levels in the dark because, you know, there's no money to top up the electric meter, which again, it's Victorian, isn't it? And thank you for sharing that. And so you know what some of these children and young people are going through. But coming back to your phrase, I mean, what are you recommending?

Yeah, it's a good question. I think, I mean, the Children's Commissioner has admitted this herself, There's a transparency problem here, not least because, as Rebecca alluded to, there's a lot of nervousness in local authorities to report this stuff, to report that they are effectively acting unlawfully. So one thing we're asking for is real transparency on it, maybe even over a sort of focused period of time. Is it an amnesty you're looking for?

No, an amnesty is mandatory reporting of every local authority and what they have to do and how long the placement lasts and why it happened. There in the report are some recommendations about the procurement of care, especially in exceptional circumstances, you know, not having to go through the sequence of getting a paper trail that shows that normal children's homes have rejected you when you know that this special case will require you to go and look for something a little bit more expensive but legal. Sort of building out this shortage of specialist capacity as well really important. And I think one last recommendation just because of what's coming next week is that local candidates get to grips with this really, really quickly, know what the pressures are in their own borough, know what good providers they have and work with them to increase capacity. messages coming in on this. I work for an out-of-hour social work team weekends and evenings.

This report very accurately reflects reality. Sometimes the care staff cannot speak English. The food is all takeaways. There's no activities in educational facilities. Truly, it's a scandalous situation. I've been a social worker for 35 years. The costs are frequently 10,000 a week,

and it's appalling care, often in caravans and nasty hotels. I was struck, Razor, and I don't know whether your recommendations gets into this, but some of the statements I was reading there, there are for-profit private companies involved in care. But that is surprising to some. Yeah, well, they, adult social care as well. They dominate the sector.

I mean, some of the biggest owners of care homes in this country, adult and child, are private equity. So, you know. Does your report get into that? No, we've not. And I don't have, I've not done enough, I think, you know, to say that there's no place for that. but I think one thing that does need to happen is councils can't be subject to just private provision like this.

They need to build out some of their own facilities, develop that institutional knowledge and how to do that. Before we go, Rebecca, a last word. I would say the advocacy is a huge part here. Lots of children and young people are led into these settings and maybe fed the myth that, you know, you're finally going to be independent. I'm not given any instruction as to what the reality is that they're going to have to bend for themselves, three meals. a day, who they're going to be lived with, what support they will miss out up until the age of 25 if they're not granted, you know, care status. So we really need to be giving children information and empowering them. And the other thing that I would say is that we really need

a crackdown on profiteering. It's absolutely not acceptable that in this day and age people venture capitalists are profiting of vulnerable children. And I don't obviously have a response for many of those involved in that particular aspect. Thank you for, I want to actually read one more statement. This is from the children's minister, Josh McAllister, who said running an unregistered children's home is illegal and wrong. Anyone running a children's home or supported accommodation must be registered with Ofsted or face serious consequences. We're cracking down on the scourge of illegal homes through new laws that give Ofsted the power to issue unlimited fines and shut down illegal homes. Newler was speaking to Fraser MacLean from the charity Commonwealth Housing

and Rebecca Pierre, Deputy Director of the charity Article 39. Still to come on the programme, the underappreciated sound of female birdsong, just in time for International Dawn Chorus Day. And remember that you can enjoy Women's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week. All you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Now, how's this for an acceptance speech?

Give thanks and remember, If you can believe it, you can conceive it. Believe the hype. Manifestation is real. Look at me. Daddy! That was Simone Pennant, MBE, founder and CEO of the TV collective, accepting the 26 BAFTA Television Craft Special Award at this year's Glittering Ceremony.

It was awarded in recognition of her outstanding contribution to championing diversity within the screen industries. When she joined me in the Woman's Hour studio, I started by asking her if she could believe what had happened. It's truly amazing. I'm absolutely shocked. It wasn't something that I was expecting or even looking for, actually, to be fair. Well, it's well deserved. Let's find out.

Let's tell people why this is well deserved. Because you set up the TV collective in 2012. Why did you think it was needed? I think the conversation around the lack of diversity has been going on for a while in TV. And particularly when it comes to people of colour, or people that feels marginal, There is always a concern in terms of how their stories are told, how they're portrayed, whether they have agency in their stories, not being able to tell their stories on their own terms.

And also just in terms of career progression, it's always difficult. So I started, I worked in TV well before starting, the TV production, TV collective, and I worked on a lot of black programs, which is great, but I found that nobody would call me for just lovely programs, or not even lovely programs, but like, come down with me, or anything else that was outside of that kind of black social issues, kind of. kind of stuff. It starts to get really frustrated. And you feel really marginalized. Sometimes when you're in the spaces, the assumption is that you're there because you're on some special screen or scheme or you've got some special dispensation to be there and never been taken on your own terms. It's like, I have something to offer this industry. So what does that do to you when you're working in an industry and you're kind of only being picked for certain jobs? You start to really, your sense of self, right? Do you know,

You know what I mean? That noise, that you're just not good enough. You start to feel, you start to get over insecure in spaces, right? You're ones, you're not people judging me. Am I good enough? I remember working in, like, I'm my mum. So you would work and at five o'clock, I've got to go and get my children, man. I've got to go and pick up nurseries and stuff like, but you're worried if I leave early, does it make me look bad? So you sit there doing nothing, but your computer up, waiting for somebody else to leave so then you can say that I've left, or you come in early and send an email just to let everybody know that you're in early. So you're always conscious. kind of working and looking behind your back and never relaxing. So you're never able to just bring your creative self, your best self to the table. So it's important to create space. People can say, you know, we belong and you can bring your best self, your best creative work without the noise of, can I, do I belong here? Am I able to be here? Are they constantly thinking I'm good enough?

Is it because I'm all of that noise, get rid of it and just bring your purposeful self? And do you know, because anecdotally I know people who have felt this in the past, but I've ended up leaving the industry. But you decided to set up the TV collective. When did that, when and how did that come about? When did you decide that you wanted to do something about it? I suppose I'd been frustrated. I'd been working in the industry for a long time

and not feeling like my career was going too far. I had a very, I had a personal incident that happened that I mentioned in my speech. I'd lost my son. And during that moment, the way he was treated, was just, there was a lot of stereotypes that had come up, in terms of who he was. So he had passed a muscular dystrophy.

He had muscular dystrophy. And there was an assumption that he was a basketball player or that he was really strong or strapping, but actually the opposite was quite true. And just understanding that I had worked on a lot of black programs for that time and that in some way I might have reinforced some of those stereotypes. It felt really uncomfortable.

And I wanted to be in a space where actually all types of stories should have the space to be told, right? Do you know what I mean? The good, the bad, the indifference. And actually I don't want to be judged, or I don't want to go into a space. And actually my life chances is dependent on the kind of my skin because of a story that you've heard on TV.

I don't want to be a part of that. So I definitely want to just want to give agency and ensure that stories and representation happens fairly and openly. And like, God, who knew that so many years on, I'll be still sat here doing it and receiving a both. See, I know. Well done. It's really important.

And you create a collective, you've created a community. Yeah. Community is really important, I think. And one of the things we've noticed that community is important is every Friday what we tend to do is we kind of highlight or spotlight somebody who's doing something amazing. It doesn't even have to be amazing. They might have just got a job promotion or they might have got a new commission

or they might have landed a project and we do this thing called Friday flowers. I like the sound of this. So what happens on Friday flowers? So we give flowers, we say, listen, this person's got a new promotion. Let's give them their flowers. You're all about giving people the confidence and honestly your BAFTA speech really that was an empowering moment as well

also you looked fantastic by the way and you do that because you're empowering people to take up space in the creative industries but you've also talked about your saboteur voice the voice that tells you that you're no good tell us about that voice and how big a problem it is and what you can do about it Well it's funny because the last couple of days

everybody's told me I look fantastic and the last couple of days I've been in my house going oh my God, why am I so fair? Do you know what I mean? Why did I sound like that? Why do I look so angry? Sabatars, but they're important, right? And originally they were there to protect you.

So years and years ago when you was out in the wild, you needed something to protect you, you'd have your saboteer. Well, not your saboteer, but you'd have this protector that would say that this is a dangerous situation of this. It's not. Life has changed, and we don't need that anymore. So oftentimes in situations, what happens is when we're feeling a bit nervous and a little bit scared.

We kind of are saboteur will jump in and say, don't do this. Don't put yourself out there. Keep yourself small. The works that we're doing, particularly with breakthrough leaders, is to get into people's ear and remind them that they actually, there's space for them to take up and they belong here. So your mindset, no matter what the systems are, your mindset can change everything, can really create opportunities for you.

You represent all kind of diverse groups, people from marginalised backgrounds, but we are a woman's hour. So how are women particularly faring? I think it's really difficult because traditionally as women we don't necessarily show up and put ourselves out there, right? Do you know what I mean?

You start to take this moment personal you start to over personalise this and start thinking, is it about me? Is it something I've done wrong? Do you know what I mean? Maybe I should be more quiet and this is the time actually to get louder actually and to remind the industry

that you're out there, the stuff that you do, the value that you bring and actually the problem you solve. So we have to be, we have to constantly remind ourselves and get kind of strong and leave your, that kind of, it's about me, it's all about me, no, it's not the time for that. Do not personalise, this is not time to get personalized. This is the time to get committed to what it is that you want to achieve.

And sometimes I say even, if you're in service of something bigger than you, that also inspires you, right? So when you feel that it's not just about you, actually, I want to tell this story because it's so important and people need to hear this story. When you hear the nose, it kind of shields you a little bit and you're able to get on because it's not just about, they said no to Simone. No, they're not going to say no to this story because it's so important. So all of those, those are the tools that are needed right now to kind of get through this moment. In your acceptance speech, you used the word, you said manifestation is real. And he said, Daddy, I want a BAFTA. Okay, first of all, Daddy, I want a BAFTA.

What did that mean being able to say? I lost my dad about eight years ago. And eight was a very particular special number for him. And eight years on, there's been a number of things where I felt my dad's presence. And I know he would have been extremely proud of me. winning in a BAFTA and it's one of those things I was spoken to when I was little. I went, I'm little. I'm going to get an award and I'm going to get an award for what I'm going to do. But actually being focused and saying that actually we're going to do

something, the work that we're going to do. So one of the other things that was really important for me is that I talked about being less impressed and more involved and the fact that we don't do it for the light. So we're not doing it for the accolades or anything. But when it happens, it's a really bloody good feeling. And that's what I've learned. It's a really great feeling to be acknowledged for the work that you do. So being able to acknowledge my dad in the moment, it felt so special. Congratulations once again to Simone Pennant, MBE on her BAFTA.

Next, is it time to retire the term, bouncer? With women now making up 20% of door supervisors, as they're officially known, is the image it conjures up just too macho and outdated? Well, Chloe was joined by Satya Rai, the CEO of the International Professional Security Association, or Ipsa, who told the largest gathering of security professionals in Europe this week that we should ditch Bouncer in favour of Guardian

to help women feel safer on a night out and to attract more women to the job. Chloe also heard from T, a female door supervisor at a busy Birmingham bar, and she started by asking why the job title matters. Look, you don't call a police officer, a postman. You know, it just doesn't fit. And Chloe, you know, dancer, in our sector, we have banned this term. We do not use it.

It's macho. It's aggressive. It's masculine. When actually, it's disproportionate to the role that the professionals are carrying out on a night out. It is all about de-escalation, diffusion, communication. And let's face it, women are absolutely superior at that. You know, and, you know, 50,000 women on the front line. There's about 50,000 DS licensed operatives that are out there

that are doing an absolutely cracking job would absolutely say that, look, no. And language matters. When we are trying so hard, we've got about 11% of women that are licensed in the sector. We want to change that, actually. You know, we were at the security event. I was there yesterday, Chloe. Honestly, our arenas, there were only women panels, some women talking from the front line about the experiences.

some of their life-saving experiences and basically the arenas were full so there's a huge huge appetite and desire to change this and actually women that are attending these venue spaces actually agree with what we're saying that actually we have a better night out we actually feel safer when we see women on the door so the terminology should fit the role

and the skill set of our operatives on the front line. Well let's get Tia T's thoughts on this. Do you agree with that T's? Do you think that your role is more of a guardian? Is that a more appropriate word for what you do? Yeah, I do agree with that. I think when you do security, it's not just keeping everyone safe. You have many customers, especially younger females now that are just touching 18 or getting 19,

not just coming out for a good time. They come out to compensate as well. You find yourself being a therapist halfway for your shift. So I think it's way more than just being a bouncer. That's interesting. So tell us what you think that women bring to the role that's different to a man. for example. The most basic answer is the feminine energy.

We're soft there. We're more nurturing. We have more patience and we're more caring towards certain situations that sometimes men generally just don't understand. Would you agree with that, Satya? Oh, absolutely. You know, I was at the prodigy concert on Friday and there was a situation that was going to escalate

and a couple of female colleagues got involved. And you should have seen how it just changed, how the mood and how the approach, the attitude of these individuals. One guy who's about six foot seven totally changed. We bring a coolness and a calmness and actually 90% of our role. The data suggests, depending on venue, suggests that it's through communication, de-escalation and so on. So that term balancer is outdated. It doesn't exist.

We are the difference between a good, holistic, brilliant and a safe night out for people going out. And look, there will be callers at Dahlia and say, actually we did have individuals. It was aggressive and actually our male colleagues and the doors prefer working with their female colleagues because it brings a balance, a great balance to the teams and the experiences on a night out for people that are not just a night out, but whatever, you know, space, everyone they're at an event and et cetera. And don't forget, you know, women are taking this very personally, you know, there's a situation up north in Manchester where, you know, a woman was so agree.

the daughter came home, she was absolutely devastated how she was treated by male door staff. That woman went out, got licence and said, whatever my daughter has experienced will not happen. And now we've got a community of women that are licensed and said, we're not taking this. We're actually going to go and be part of the solution. Yeah, change it, change it. T, I want to bring you in because you talk about the sort of the femininity and the different approach that women have. give me specific examples of what you would do if you are in a situation

maybe particularly with men maybe they're drunk or certainly they're inebriated to some extent and it is escalating what would you do talk us through your approach I can give you a personal experience that happened just the other week there was two groups one group of about five

another group of three all males different ethnicities a bit mixture that the group of three was clearly more drunk than a group of five. So the way I handled it was the calmest ones, you speak to them, you get them to walk away. If you can get one group to go away, you can calm down the other group. And that's what I did.

And I was completely honest with them. But they're all taller than me. They're all bigger than me. If there was a kickoff, honestly, I wouldn't be able to handle it by myself. So I told them the truth, like, if this escalates, you're putting me in danger when I'm here to have fun and protect you guys. I'm a woman, you guys are men. I can't take you guys head on.

So the best way you can do with this is finish your drinks, leave the venue and continue the rest of your night. And it worked. Wow. Have you ever been in a situation where you felt physically threatened? Yes, I have, but you don't show it. As long as you got confidence, who's going to know? Interesting.

And have you ever been struck or hurt in working on the doors in Birmingham? No, actually, I've never been physically assaulted by a male what I was working on those in Birmingham. What do you think, Satya, is probably the most tricky situation that you've had to face and how you've managed to diffuse it? I've got to say it was, you know, a real, again, not, I mean, I don't work at the doors as much as tea in, so in my experience was probably the concert that I went to on Friday again.

where I was supporting the front door staff, and it was, again, similar to what T said, which was, you know, this gentleman, a couple of gentlemen, and look, they were towering over us. And what you nailed it, Chloe, it's almost like they saw a woman coming in. And the gentleman just pointed, listen, you know, I just want to speak to her.

I'll be all right, I'll be cute and I'm calm. And you de-escalate and you separate the parties, like T said, because it was quite, you know, they were acting and behaving badly and etc. and so on. But what we did to establish all that was listen, talk, separate the parties, take them away and so on. And, you know, it allowed the rest of the people around them to be safe and continue with their night and equally for them to enjoy the rest of their night. People are paying customers. They go there. They're excited. You should see their faces

when they come into venues like this and so on. You know, we're there to help that holistic spinks to continue and so on. But when it does come up, when situations do come up like this, like T said, you deal with it. There's on the training, the behavioral detainees, protection training, we could even preempt situations from occurring due to the training that the staff have now in the venues and etc. and so on close. So they are well equipped to do what they need to do. They have radio contact with control rooms and the teams and etc. So it's a holistic communication everywhere that, you know, makes it all work. I want to read this message, which has just come in. I passed out a very hot gig in a basement and when I came to

I'd landed in a wine glass. My arm was bleeding and I had no idea where I was. I tried to get up and passed out again. When I came to, I was being carried up the stairs by a female bouncer so I could go outside to get some fresh air. She was impressively strong and very kind at a time when I had no idea what was going on. T, do you think that's something different that women bring to this role, that they're maybe looking out for women more to make sure that their safety is insured on a night out?

Yes, 110% Anywhere I've worked on the doors, especially, they literally call me too nice. You don't have to... Some venues have rules of if you're not paying customer, you can't come to the toilet. I would never refuse a fee. My couple are using the toilet.

If they're waiting for that Uber, you are waiting inside until Uber gets here. It doesn't matter. Safe is the most important thing. And as long as I know you're able to continue the rest of your nice safe, that's what that matters. And what can you do, for example, you know, if you see a woman who's on her own, if it's the early hours, maybe you think that she's had a bit too much to drink, she might be vulnerable.

Do you see it as your job to help her get a taxi or is it very much that you're, you know, you feel that you're just within the venue that you're able to help people? Oh no, it's definitely my responsibility to help. If I've noticed that there's something wrong with you, then it is my responsibility. For example, I was working at a venue. There was a young lady. She had just turned 18. she's been out drinking and somehow she's departed from her friend group she originally didn't come to me a family founder and they said it was walking around everywhere and everywhere was just men so they didn't know where to leave her

luckily they came across me that also shows it's it's men in the family that brought her over and they don't even trust other male bouncers all the time so much she came to me i helped sober up once i knew she was sober enough i allowed her to show me to unlock her phone so i could find some former family member to get in contact with and that's exactly what I did. I ended up speaking to her mom who booked her an Uber. I walked her to the Uber and told her mom to call me so I knew she got in safe and that's what happened. Do you see male bouncer doing that as well? I shouldn't use her bouncer. Sorry, door supervisors. I apologize. I've just fallen into that trap. It's fine. I have seen it, but I do notice they're more skeptical with doing it. And I do understand why as men,

you don't know what people are really like and dealing with drunk females, you don't know what they're like once they become sober. So in order to protect themselves, they do their job and nothing more. Let me read you some more of these messages. Lovely that are coming in. Andrew says, great interview about the female guardians.

Women are just better at diffusing situations. We need more of them in positions of power as well. Thanks for the education, says Andrew. And this message is from Maria, from Austria. She says, when I was studying in London, I was one of London's first female bouncers in the 1990s. It was an incredible experience that shaped my life in a very positive way. And having a woman on the door makes a huge difference to how situations might escalate.

I'm still friends with some of my former colleagues from then. Chloe was speaking to Satya Rai there, CEO of the International Professional Security Association and T, a female door supervisor in Birmingham. Now, what do you make of this? I had to listen to that with my eyes close. Well, the birders among you will have correctly identified that as a robin, but you may be surprised to know it's a female robin, not a male.

So much of what we think as beautiful birdsong has traditionally been attributed to males, but a new book is asking us to rethink that assumption and to pay closer attention to what female birds are contributing to the soundscape. It's a particularly timely conversation because this Sunday marks the peak of the dawn. chorus, the surge of bird song that happens around sunrise, especially during spring. Well, to explore this, I spoke to researcher Lucy McRoberts.

She's contributed to the sound approach to birding, second edition published last week. She's also a columnist for Birdwatch, the UK's leading birding magazine. If you go back into history, so much of birding or nithology was conducted by males, and in the Victorian era, that was done with guns. So when they were going out, they were experiencing new species and they were collecting them, it was much easier to find the males, but they have typically brighter plumage and they're singing much louder. And also they kind of look better on mantel pieces because these birds were being collected and bought home. So a lot of the focus was on the male of the species and that attitude has just pervaded through the whole of ornithology ever since with the male bird defining what we perceive as,

a bird. So Jasmine Donahey, who's an author, wrote a brilliant book called Bird Splaining about this a few years ago. And essentially, it's all to do. It's an amazing title. She's an awesome lady. And she explains this so well. The male defines the species. And the male defines our experience and gives more pleasure. We are very clear that we want to challenge this. We want a lot more attention put on female bird song and a female bird. And a female bird. bird biology as well so that we can understand more and do more to conserve these species. So this book, which is a delight, by the way, I love it. It's written by Mark Constantine. He's one of the founders of the beauty brand lush. But his true love is bird song, as is yours.

So why did you want to come together to understand more about female birdsong? I've worked for Mark for about three years, and it's a really weird combination of bathbombs and birdsong. But he really is a really inspiring guy, and he's so passionate about birdsong. and I now work with some of the best birdsong experts in the world and it takes geekery to a whole new level. If you've ever thought, imposter syndrome, I have that all the time because these guys know so much. They know so much.

You can be walking along and they just get distracted. They're not listening to you. They're constantly listening and analysing birds. It's amazing to be part of that. Mark's been rewriting this book for a long time. And we started doing research. And we went down this rabbit hole of female birdsong, and we found a paper from less than 10 years ago,

and it said that the two major bird sound collections in the world, so the biggest ones with literally millions of recordings, for both of them, less than 1% of the sounds were labelled as female. Wow. So we have literally forgotten 50% of avian life when it comes to bird sounds, and that is terrifying. So what have you discovered? Oh, we went back into our own recordings

and it turned out the sound approach were doing better than these libraries which thank goodness. We had about over 40% of bird sounds like labelled female which was good. That was a good strong start. But we started like looking at things like garden birds. So for example, you heard a Robin there.

Oh, should we re-listen to the Robin? And then we can talk up. We'll dip it behind us. Let's get some lovely beautiful birds on. Okay, so tell us about this recording. This is a female Robin. Yes, this is a female Robin, and they are incredibly hard to sex unless you are holding them at a very certain time of year in the breeding season.

They look identical, the males and the females. You just can't separate them based on how they look. So for a very long time, everyone assumed that the robins that you heard singing were males. And actually, female Robin song at certain times of year is just as complex, beautiful and so on, as the males. This one's actually recorded in September, so this robin is probably beginning to hold a winter territory. What we did discover with robins is you still can't separate them based on their sound. Should we move on to another? Let's have another bird. This is the northern wheat here. I'm really enjoying this, by the way. I hope everyone listening is finding

this as pleasurable as I am in my headphones. So what can we hear there? Tell us about that. I always think this one sounds quite robotic, almost like sound effects from Star Wars or something. And essentially, this is a northern wheat here, so this species breeds in like the north and west of the UK. And this is the female of the species. She's got a mate and they are singing at another pair close by. Because birds, we like to think of birds as being terribly virtuous and all they mate for life. Most birds don't do that. There's constant rivalry competition, extra pair copulation.

They're not faithful in most cases. So she's probably warding off that other female. mail and saying, nope, stay back, stay away. This is my territory. This is my fella. And he also will be doing the same to the male of that species. Sorry, I just, Dolly Parton's Jolene just popped into my head then whilst we were explaining that. Maybe that was a detail too far of what goes on in my head. And let's finally hear the mallard, the most common duck species.

Yep, yep, we get the picture there, don't we? Nice and clear. So tell me what we're listening to. Oh, she is tenacious, isn't she? So when you think of a duck quacking, again, it's very easy to go out. That's a male duck with the classic like green head. That's a mallard. And even the French word mallard comes from wild drake is what it directly translates as. Female ducks do not have an easy life.

And if you've ever kind of been to a park in the breeding season, you will have seen like a female being relentlessly pursued by male ducks. They'll chase her into the air. They'll chase her onto the water. female ducks can even get like drowned in the breeding season because the males are so relentless and so tenacious. But that quack is part of their display. And if you imagine a kind of quack, quack, quack, quack, quack, quack that you hear if you go to a park or a canal, that is always a female. That descending quacking that goes down is always the female.

And if you imagine the voice of like Donald Duck, he has been misgendered, frankly. Donald should have been Dolores because his voice is categorically female and female mallards I've been constantly overshadowed they have it really tough when they're out in the wild and we need to do more to appreciate female mallards because that quack quack quack

that we all associate with ducks that is female in my head that is a sign of feminism in the bird world and this is brilliant you see this is why they needed to do more research in the first place and then Donald Duck would have been given the right voice. Why is it important that we understand the sex of the bird we're here?

Well, it's one of those things in science where we've always made assumptions in ornithology about what birds mean and how they're communicating and we're learning all the time. Bird populations around the world are in freeful, in many cases. We are losing our dawn chorus. It is nowhere near as varied and enriched and as speciesful as it would have been even 20 years ago.

If we can't even correctly sex, the birds that we're hearing, how can we possibly understand the complex biology and ecology that is needed to save these species? At the sound approach, they're using bird sounds to identify new species, to drive forward kind of conservation initiatives.

We have to be able to understand what is singing, how it's singing, why it's singing and where it's singing if we're going to protect the areas that will ultimately save the birds. What got you into birding, Lucy? Oh, that is a very tricky one. I kind of got into it

after university. And I met some really amazing people doing it. It's very intimidating as a young woman trying to pick up a pair of binoculars. It is really scary. Luckily, there's lots of groups out there now that have kind of popped up in the past few years and a really kind of good community of female burders. And there are a lot more women involved. But God, when I was like 20 years old and just starting out,

it was really scary and I was lucky to have a lot of support from some really great male birders who helped me get into it. it and I got the column a couple of years later. So I've always felt quite welcome in the community. Well, look, we're intimidating. We want everyone to do it this Sunday, right, whether we're birders or not, and whether we know anything about this song or not. I mentioned the dawn chorus.

Tell us about what's happening this Sunday and how we can hear it best. Oh, it is international dawn chorus day. So no matter where you are, even if it's just a case of opening your window, at about 5.30 at the morning, you'll begin to hear all of the birds starting to sing. And they're setting up their territories, They're advertising their availability. They're trying to attract mates. And it is just the most magical time of year.

Lucy McRoberbert there, and the book The Sound Approach to Birding is out now. That's it from me on Monday's program, especially for the bank holiday, how to have difficult conversations, whether with your partner, your parents, your doctor or your boss, all with the help of conflict mediator, Gabrielle Rifkind, comedian Helen Thorn,

and reality star Vicki Pattinson. So join Nula at 10 a.m. on Monday. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. and particularly Sunday morning's birdsong.