Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour - Mental health and dating, Charlotte Worthington BMX gold & comedy writer Georgia Pritchett

Episode Date: August 14, 2021

Dating apps have seen a growing trend towards individuals disclosing that they have a mental health disorder in their online profiles. Jo Hemmings a behavioural psychologist and Beth McColl a lifestyle journalist, tell us how and when to tell someone you are dating that you live with a mental health condition? We look at the issue of maternal discrimination with Dr Katie Lidster a scientist who has just won £23,000 damages against her employer – a government backed body. She won the case against UK Research and Innovation (UKRI) after an 18-month battle following the arrival of her second child. She tells us about her case alongside Claire Dawson an employment lawyer. Charlotte Worthington won gold for Team GB in the freestyle BMX event at the Olympics – the first time BMX has ever been represented at the games. She tells us about becoming the first woman to ever successfully land a 360 backflip in a competition.The journalist and co-chair of the Mayor of London’s Violence Against Women and Girls board Joan Smith tells us how new research appears to show that extremist attackers are often united, whatever their ideology, by a significant history of domestic violence. She wants reports of domestic violence to be taken more seriously so that acts of terrorism can be prevented. We have music and chat with the singer-songwriter Joy Crookes And Georgia Pritchett is a multi-award winning comedy and drama writer. She has written for numerous TV shows like The Thick of It, Veep, Succession, Smack the Pony and Have I got News for You. She tells us about collaborating with comedians such as Miranda Hart, Lenny Henry, Ronnie Corbett and Jo Brand, and about her memoir ‘My Mess is a Bit of a Life’. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor: Lisa Jenkinson

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. Fresh from the Tokyo Olympics, Charlotte Worthington will be talking about her gold-winning performance in Freestyle BMX. We'll discuss online dating when you suffer from a mental health issue. How much should you mention it online? Obviously, if you have an eating disorder, don't go on a meal for your first date.

If you've got issues with alcohol, don't go out for a drink. I mean, there are various things that you can do to minimise issues that you have, but my general view would be to not include it in that very small dating profile. We'll have beautiful music and chats with the singer-songwriter Joy Crooks. We'll find out the links between domestic abuse and the men who commit acts of terrorism.

And the multi-award-winning comedy and drama writer Georgia Pritchett tells us why comedy writing chose her. I knew I couldn't write prose because I don't like describing things and I don't know enough adjectives. And I knew I couldn't be a journalist because I don't care about facts. And so it was actually my mum that pointed out that I would sort of watch my favourite comedians and sketch shows and memorise the dialogue. All that coming up. But first, we often talk about gender discrimination on the programme, but an additional area of concern for many women is maternal discrimination. We've been prompted to look at this following the news that Dr Katie Lidster,

a scientist working in UK research and innovation, which is a government-backed body, has just won £23,000 worth of damages because after her maternity leave, she was told that she'd return to less responsibility and that her old job no longer existed. However, she found out that an almost identical role to hers was then advertised. In a moment, we'll hear from Claire Dawson, an employment lawyer specialising in discrimination cases.

But first, Dr Katie Lidster took me back to when she had her second child, Daisy. Daisy was born at 30 weeks, so she was 10 weeks early. I went for a regular scan and they found out that she wasn't growing properly. My placenta was failing, so her best chance of survival was to be born early. And she was born weighing 2lb 11oz. She was tiny. She was whisked away to the neonatal intensive care unit where she would spend two months of her first life.

She needed some breathing support and she was fed by a tube. And we slowly got her bigger until she got home two months later. And what toll did that take on you? It was massive. It was probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do. It completely changed me as a person I think because you just had to go into this kind of survival mode and be there for her and I also had a two-year-old at home as well so being there for her as well and spending my days in the hospital but also leaving Daisy at night in the care of the nurses. And you

were seeing a therapist through this time weren't you? So I briefly met the therapist when I was in the hospital and it was only when I got home I think the biggest challenge really started when you got away from that security blanket of the hospital and still taking a really small fragile vulnerable baby home. I really struggled with anxiety so I got back in touch with her. So it was clear when I spoke to her that I was still living very much in the moment. She diagnosed me with post-traumatic stress disorder and that my anxiety was stopping me from doing day-to-day things. It was the therapist that then urged you to return to work as part of your recovery? Yes, when we were chatting, it was very clear to her that my career was really important to me. It was a major part of my life.

She very much encouraged me as a way of healing to move forward and look at the future and be positive. So I started those conversations with my work. And when you contacted them to go back to work, what did they say to you? How did that conversation go down? It was actually a very short telephone conversation. I called my manager and he just said, it's not appropriate for you to return to the role you were doing before maternity leave and we've made a new job and we'll be telephone conversation I called my manager and he just said it's not appropriate for you to return to the role you were doing before maternity leave and we've made a new job and we'll be sending you a job description and I just went into a complete state of shock it can come completely out of the blue and in the matter of minutes I'd lost the job I loved the job I thrived in and the job I was looking forward to returning to. So how did you find out then that they were pretty advertising for what seemed

like the same job? It was only actually after I raised a grievance that one of my friends in the office forwarded me an email and said oh are you not coming back after your maternity leave there's a job being advertised that looks pretty much like your job and she forwarded it to me and it was my job but just with the addition of one word in the title. I mean how do you react to something like that? Well at this point in time the grievance procedure word in the title. I mean, how do you react to something like that? Well, at this point in time, the grievance procedure had already been started. So I was then dealing with HR. And I think that's where the biggest shock came in, is when I started raising my issues with HR,

they completely backed and double-downed with my line manager. And it seemed to be a whole cultural system that was against me, not just one person in the organisation. The whole of HR seemed to back what they were saying and that they were not doing anything wrong. And then you spoke to the pressure group pregnant then screwed how helpful were they? I don't think I would have got this far without them I don't think I would have even tried I think it was just a first step let's just see how they can help and I rang their hotline and I spoke to one of their solicitors for

free free advice. And she said, they can't do that. It's unlawful. The first step is a grievance. And then she actually followed me all the way through to the tribunal stage. And I definitely wouldn't have started the ball rolling without Pregnant Then Screwed. It's an incredibly expensive process to have gone through. How did you manage to afford it? So I use legal representation up to the tribunal case. So it's really up to the tribunal case so it's really complex submitting a tribunal and there's lots of deadlines to meet and I did use a solicitor for that part but then when it got to the tribunal itself I couldn't afford the barrister

and I had to cancel the barrister I had booked in and it's at that point that my husband stepped forward. Is your husband a barrister? No, he's a meteorologist. So what made you think he could do the job of a barrister? Well, he communicates the weather really well. So I thought, and he knows my case inside out. I mean, I'd been living it for 18 months at home in lockdown. He was the only person I ever spoke to. He knew my case so well.

He knew all the caveats, like he knew the law by then. He was just so into it. Yeah, so so supportive. Claire are you surprised by this story? Well not not really because obviously I've been advising women in similar situations for many years as as an employment lawyer and I think Katie's case has some very uh sort of clear-cut examples of unlawful discrimination because of her maternity leave. But it's not untypical for clients of mine to find that they've been told that their role has disappeared, that there's been a restructure, that a new role has been created.

And it's not unusual either for them to find that perhaps their maternity cover, the person who was brought in to do their job while they were away so that they would have a job to return to, has ended up doing a role that looks very like theirs going forward. So while I understand that it was a really difficult situation for Katie, and I'm really glad that she found the resources and the strength to go ahead and fight her case and achieve some justice. Unfortunately, I'm not that surprised. Of course, it's very disappointing because women who go on maternity leave have a statutory right to return to the same role or an

equivalent role in most circumstances. We have had a statement from Katie's employer UKRI and a spokesperson said it's our policy not to comment in detail on individual cases but we have conceded liability in this case UKRI is committed to equality and to fostering a positive working culture and we will learn and change in the light of this experience. We wish Dr Lidster all the best in the future. Are you seeing, Claire, more of these cases coming through? Well, I think the Employment Tribunal's own statistics have shown that in the last few years there's been an increase in cases for pregnancy-related dismissal and detriment. Certainly, I've been advising women in similar situations for a long time.

And the Equality and Human Rights Commission did a report back in 2016. They said that about, you know, 11% of women who take maternity leave lose their job as a result. I do think that since the Me Too movement took off in 2017, and since we've had gender pay gap reporting in the UK, there's been a heightened awareness of issues facing women in the workplace, including maternity discrimination. And I think what that has done is it's allowed women to feel like there's a bit of a collective behind them if they take these cases. Because as I'm sure Katie experienced, it can be quite a lonely process

fighting a case all the way to the employment tribunal. And so I think Me Too and other movements like that and this refocus on the issues facing women in the workplace has actually given women the strength to kind of go ahead and go ahead with the case when they might otherwise have felt quite daunted by it. What warning signs should women watch out for when they're on maternity leave? Well, I mean, a typical thing I think has happened to Katie here is that if somebody, it doesn't bode well for a woman if she contacts her employer and they don't really want to engage with a return to work plan and be clear about what's happening. So I think poor communication during the maternity leave period, a failure for the line manager to engage with one-to-ones, those things don't tend to bode well. I mean, I don't want to be all doom and gloom because

obviously a majority of women don't experience these problems. And, you know, a lot of employers are very well aware of their legal obligations and they want to abide by them and they actually think they're doing the right thing by by abiding them and by facilitating a smooth return to work for women so I hope that for most women listening that they'll be able to enjoy their maternity leaves without worrying about it. I just want to come back to Katie. Katie what I mean is it like as Claire has said an incredibly vulnerable time you'd been through such traumatic experience what gave you the strength to just carry on and do this? I think going through that with Daisy being premature,

I'd already shown myself that I could be strong in that situation. So why can't I be strong in a situation? And also having two daughters, I just want to fight for a better future for them as well. I never thought it would get this far. I thought, oh, it would be settled at the grievance stage or the appeal stage. And you just can't stop going when it gets to a tribunal claim. Dr Katie Lidster and Claire Dawson. Now, dating can be tricky for everyone. But if you have a mental health problem, and one in four of us will at some stage, this adds a whole new layer.

At what point do you bring it up? Dating apps have seen a growing trend towards people disclosing that they have a mental health disorder in their online profiles. Is that a good idea? Jo Hemmings is a behavioural psychologist and relationship coach and Beth McColl is an author and lifestyle journalist who writes openly about mental health. Andrea Catherwood asked Jo what she thinks about disclosing a mental health disorder in an online profile. I think if you've got either a mental health disorder or a neurological disorder such as Tourette's or OCD you might need to put it on there. Put it on there if you think this will come out on your first date,

if it's something that you can't necessarily control and it might happen. Otherwise, the whole of app dating is ridden with anxiety anyway for people. So I feel if you've got some form of social anxiety, you've got a mood disorder, I wouldn't put it on your profile. I think it defines you too much. I do think it's something you might want to have in a conversation, phone conversation with somebody before you go on a date. You might want to mention it while you're on a date. But if it isn't something that's going to materially affect your actual dating process. Obviously, if you have an eating disorder, don't go on a meal for your first date. If you've got issues with alcohol, don't go out for a drink. I mean, there are various things that you can do to minimize issues that you have. But my general view would be to not include it in that very small dating

profile, a few sentences that you're actually allowed to have. Yeah. I wonder if there's a balance here between getting rid of the stigma around mental health, so therefore being more open about it and protecting your own privacy by allowing, of course, you know, anyone who is also on the app to see that quite private thing about you. I think that's absolutely right. So it is a private thing. You know, dating apps are very public. You can't filter who sees you. And I also think you don't want it to define you. There are other things that you do with your life, in your life, that you can put on a dating app. And when you want to reveal it, when you feel that you know somebody well

enough, or even trust enough, even during your initial conversation or your first date, by all means say it. We don't want a stigma attached to it, but we also don't want to influence people who may not understand what that is to not swipe right on you because you said that. Beth, you live with depression and anxiety and it's something you've been very open about. You've written a book about it. And I know that you've written that telling a potential partner that you live with these issues was like confessing to a crime. When you were first dating in your teens and 20s, how did you cope with telling someone you were dating

about your mental health? Yeah, I was really nervous about it. I sort of waited as long as possible. I treated it as though I was disclosing this sort of terrible information, this sort of shadowy secret. You know, I treated it as though this was going to be a deal breaker. I waited as long as possible. I kind of would try and get them to like me as much as possible

so it wouldn't drive them away, which is kind of the antithesis of what I do now which is you know within the first few conversations even on a dating app or in person we'll discuss it you know really really calmly but before I absolutely approached it um with this air of fear and this air of of shame almost We've got a lot of viewers getting in touch with us about this. James says, it's so hard to know when to bring up experiences of mental health problems when dating. Sometimes it helps the other person to open up too,

but too often people can prejudge the rest of your personality negatively. It's a stigma we don't talk about often enough. Beth, I wonder if that's something that you experienced it is I mean so on dating apps I don't have in my bio you know I have depression anxiety but I do have my job so from the off people know that I work in mental health which inevitably leads quite quickly to the questions about what I do and why in my experience and I'm really comfortable with that but there's definitely been been times where that has led to judgments that's led to sort of

someone revealing that they have either a stigma or a misunderstanding or a kind of closely held belief about you know depression anxiety personality disorders which is is which I find either upsetting or I find you know just, just doesn't gel with me. I find ignorant. And so, yeah, early on in this conversation, I've definitely come up against that ignorance on dating apps, especially. Jo, I wonder if you've got clients who've had any very negative experiences where, you know, a potential partner has just said, look, I don't want to see you again after they've brought up their mental health issues. I mean, that must be very hard to deal with. It is hard to deal with and actually it doesn't happen that often,

partly because I think I sort of advise my clients to tell a partner when they're ready to tell a partner, by which time if that partner then says, okay, this is a deal breaker, I'm moving on, they weren't the right person for you. And so your instincts will tell you when it's a good time to say, I have a lot of clients, for instance, with Asperger's syndrome. Now, that absolutely makes no difference other than they're concerned that sometimes they don't read body language messages correctly. They don't respond in their behavior in the way that one might expect. And they say, should I say that in my dating profile? I go, absolutely not. But if you want to say it on a

date or you want to mention it to somebody before you go on a date, by all means, but don't put it down in your actual profile, because a lot of people don't understand what that means. They don't understand how behaviour could be different. In some cases, like many mental health issues, there's a huge spectrum from very mild to really quite strong. So I hear what Beth is saying so much, and I think she's absolutely right. I'd say the same for a physical disability. I would say don't put that on your app profile. Don't let that be the thing that defines people's decision, whether they swipe right or left. We've had an email from Charlie who said that having borderline personality disorder can make

you more susceptible to getting into an abusive relationship as well as having what she calls the crazy girlfriend stigma attached to it. She says that she just doesn't think it's very safe to display your mental health disorder on your profile. It could make you very vulnerable to the wrong kind of people.

Would that be a concern of yours, Jo? 100%. I think that is the other side of it, the flip side of it. When people put out certain disorders on there, it will attract people for absolutely the wrong reasons. We're all vulnerable when we expose ourselves on dating apps. You're putting yourself out there in a relatively public forum, you know, giving away your age, your job, your location, etc, etc. And there are unfortunately people out there who will look at that and abuse that information in some way to their own advantage. And I don't think we should give them any more opportunity than they already have. Beth, I wonder, having been through this, what your advice is for how to bring up that conversation

because it's not an easy thing to do. What have you learned over the years? I think the main thing for me is to just check in with yourself first. You know, definitely there's truth in sooner rather than later. There's so many benefits to that. But check in with yourself first. Am I ready? Do I feel that I have the words?

Even if you just sort of broach it very gently, you know, if someone asks, what have you been up to this week? And you say, well, I made a lasagna on Monday. I had therapy on Tuesday. And, you know, you sort of, you feel your way forward to see, okay, is this person receptive?

Are they going to ask questions? So definitely plan ahead take it as as slow as as you want to take it you know it's a lot of mental health is about maintenance so it might just be that you you reveal to them this is this is what i live with and this is what it looks like for me rather than just saying you know i have depression um because it's not a kind of one size fits all. This is perhaps how it might affect, you know, where we're going on dates or what we're doing. But reveal information at your own pace and as it's pertinent to the person that you're dating, rather than feeling that you have to

completely unload everything, you have to sort of share all of your trauma, all of your symptoms, all of this, you know, this is not information that you have to disclose early on until you really trust someone. Jo, I don't want to give the impression that one size fits all. Obviously, everybody's mental health issues are different and of course they can change over time. But I wonder what would your advice be for the other party, for someone perhaps who doesn't have much knowledge or experience of mental health when someone they're dating says to them, you know, I'm in therapy or I've got borderline personality disorder or whatever it is that they divulge? What's the best way if you don't really know much about it to handle that? Well, it's a really good question. And I think the best way is to ask questions,

not probing intrusive questions, but certainly say, you know, how does that manifest itself? You know, how do you cope with that? Be empathetic, but find out more. I mean, I sometimes think that people who do have mental health issues are very offended by being asked what that means in everyday life. And I don't think they should be because I think this is the way it's de-stigmatised and it's the way that people get to understand in person with somebody else who's got something they may have only read about or heard about. Don't sweep it under the carpet. Don't pretend you haven't heard. Don't think, oh, well, that's it. You know, in my mind's eye, I'm not going to see that person again because of it. You know, definitely find out more. Thank you so much, Jo. And Beth, just very quickly before you go, I must ask you, how successful has the online dating been? You know what? I think it has been quite successful.

I've met so many understanding people, so many wonderful people. I mean, I'm single at the moment, but it's still, I think, it is a landscape that really frightened me as someone with mental illness. And actually, I have met the most wonderful understanding people there. And, you know, whatever your mental health condition, you know, you do deserve and can have a stable relationship. And I think online dating is actually a great way to find that. Jo Hemmings and Beth McColl, and they were both talking to Andrea Catherwood there. And your emails came in. Susie says, in dating, we are allowed to discriminate with height and set perimeters. Therefore, it should be fine to state you want your potential partner to be in good mental health. And Liz says, I've been affected by mental health issues myself and within my family.

I felt that people throw the mental health card around easily these days. And the overall effect is that what can be a life-confining condition is treated like a fashion accessory. Living with mental health issues is hard. It should not be belittled. It should be treated as a precious piece of personal information to be shared with those we trust. And if you'd like to get in touch with us about anything you hear on the show, go to our website.

Now, Charlotte Worthington won gold for Team gb in the freestyle bmx event at the olympics the first time bmx has ever been represented at the games not only that but she also became the first woman to ever successfully land a 360 backflip in a competition described as the holy grail of bmx tricks fresh from returning from Tokyo, Charlotte spoke to Andrea from the UK National Cycling Centre in Manchester. She told her how she got into the sport. I was always into extreme sports. I used to ride scooters throughout most of my teenage years.

And it was when I got a bit older and I was a little bit bigger and could handle a bike a little bit better. I was about 19 when I decided to switch to BMX. It was the same kind of adrenaline rush thrill. I picked it up pretty quick because I kind of already had the balance skills and I'm 25 now, so I've been doing it five or six years. When you went to Tokyo, did you have an expectation that you could win a gold medal? We always knew it was a possibility.

We knew if this run got pulled off and things fell into place and we thought it was highly likely that other people wouldn't be able to step it up. But we definitely went into the games thinking it's a possibility, but it's kind of not the goal. I set that as the goal and it was the goal this whole time but when we actually got there i think the goal changed to let's just do our best to pull off that run and the result will come now of course you know you've you've become famous really for

this 360 backflip i'm not going to try to explain it because you know you really have to see it it's extraordinary um i wonder how on earth you learn to do that because, I mean, if it doesn't come off, presumably it's really nasty. I mean, you're up in the air spinning around. I mean, if you didn't make it, you would hurt yourself, I guess. Yeah, I mean, when you're on a BMX 20 feet in the air,

there's not a lot of room for error or time for mistakes or hesitation because, yeah, it can come off quite nasty. And the first time I attempted it in contest in the first run, I did come off the bike, but I got away very lucky just with some whiplash. But tell me, because this is, I find this an extraordinary kind of just insight into the mind of an Olympian and a gold medal winning Olympian. You were there under all that pressure and it didn't work out for you the first

time, this incredible jump that no woman had ever done before in a competition. And yet in the last round, you chose to do it again. I mean, I just can't imagine the kind of pressure you were under. What made you choose that? Because you could have gone a different route, couldn't you? You could have had a safer routine and probably got a bronze medal I could have changed my mind but we literally didn't have a backup plan so that that thought didn't really enter my head at the time um after the first run I felt like a rush of adrenaline for even trying to do the trick so that definitely helps me along the way but I've worked really hard with um a lot of the team behind me at British Cycling and friends and families advice on being in those high pressure situations and I've practiced them and I've come

out the other end not as well as I did in the Olympics before and I've come dead last but you have to practice and take the risks and learn how to what to focus on in that situation because there is thoughts that creep in and you do start to think is this the right time is this the right trick is it the right plan and you know if I got kind of whisked away with those thoughts in the half hour between the runs then I probably wouldn't have pulled off the next trick I probably would have hesitated um so I think all I was actively focusing on was that I can do it and well regardless of the result I was going to at least try and do it I didn't have a backup plan and you did it maybe maybe not having

a backup plan is a great thing definitely you must have been so focused on on this uh on your training in the run-up to the games what happens now for you well now I'm definitely taking a little break. I might look at getting my shoulder fixed up. I've had some issues with my shoulder and I even dislocated it and took an injury six weeks out of flying to the Games. So it's been a bit of a whirlwind.

It's been very intense in the weeks leading up. There's a lot that's been going on. So I'm going to be glad to take a little break, throw the diet out the window for a while. Good idea. For a holiday. I know that because it's been so successful, BMX, at the Games, there's supposed to be a lot more funding coming in,

I think about a million pounds. What's that going to mean for the grassroots of the sport? Oh, it's absolutely incredible news that I think British Cycling and UK Sport announced a million pounds to go towards BMX freestyle. And that's massively going to go towards the grassroots of creating a contest structure. It allows kids the opportunities to go out there and practice that. Is it a good sport for girls?

Definitely, definitely. I think it's very intimidating for young girls to go to a skate park and see that it is male dominated. Maybe 80% of that it is male dominated it may be 80 percent is of the sport is male um but i think it's such a great community within bmx and the skate park that once you get in there and make a couple friends you know everyone's there to support you and help you learn tricks are we going to see you in the next olympics i definitely hope so i think you will we all hope so too. That was

Charlotte Worthington speaking to Andrea Catherwood. I did a 360 in my BMX once. Didn't land it very well though. Now new research appears to show that extremist attackers are often united whatever their ideology by a significant history of domestic violence. In the last year, the government has led an investigation into this link called Project Starlight. Joan Smith is an author, journalist and the co-chair of the Mayor of London's Violence Against Women and Girls Board. She's been feeding into this review after researching the area, resulting in a book called Homegrown, How Domestic Violence Turns Men Into Terrorists. Emma began by asking what first prompted her interest.

About five years ago, I began to notice how many men who went out and killed lots of people, complete strangers, turned out to have a history of abusing women and children at home, whether it was mothers, partners, ex-partners and so on. And the link didn't seem to have been noticed. And I thought it cannot be accidental. So if men are doing this at home and they're used to controlling people, they're used to a high level of violence in the home, their threshold might be lower for committing public acts of violence. So that was where it started from. And it built on the fact that in the States, there'd been quite a lot of research on, you know, the men who go out on killing sprees, the mass shooters, and over half

of them turned out to have a history of domestic abuse. And they often include a female partner or ex-partner in the people they kill. Is it them as always as perpetrators? Or do they also, do you notice anything around them growing up in a home where there was domestic abuse as well? Yes. So when I was writing the book, I looked at about 50 violent men or young teenagers who'd committed offences. And it was clear there was another pattern, which is youngsters who'd grown up exposed to violence, who then, you know, initially were horrified by it, but then started to identify with the abusive parent. And of course, there's nothing inevitable about that because there might be a protective factor like, you know, an inspirational teacher or an aunt or uncle or something. But there is a subgroup of terrorists who actually grew up with a huge amount of violence before they perpetrated it on other people.

What is it about going from the home to then an ideology or moving to being a terrorist because that's a you know being an extremist of some kind because that's a that's a leap. It is but I think the link is male violence so what I realised when I when I started looking at this is that there's a tendency to think there's male violence on one side of the room and that's rape and sexual assault and and domestic abuse and all of that and then there's this other thing which is called terrorism, which is also violent, but it's seen as primarily a matter of ideology. And the question I've been asking is, what if it's not just ideology? What if, instead of perfectly normal people coming across a website set up by a terrorist organisation, whether it's far-right or Islamist,

and thinking, oh, these are interesting ideas, what if these are already men who are already inclined towards violence and they're looking for an ideology that actually says, yes, you're right, you're right to feel angry, you're right to feel this rage. And so the ideology comes later in the process than we've realised in the past. And if that is the case, and as some of your research will have borne out, what can the government, what can the authorities use that to do? Well, I think, you know, there's quite a lot of people every year

who come to the attention of the authorities because they're interested in school shootings or they're interested in, you know, a literature from Islamic State or the far right or something like that. The question is which of those people are the most dangerous? You know, the security services have limited resources and they have to know who to concentrate on. And having looked at a whole series of cases like the Westminster Bridge attacker, the Manchester Arena attacker, who had histories of abusing women

that wasn't known to the authorities. So that wasn't factored in when they were assessing whether they were posed danger to the public. So what I've been arguing for a long time is that a history of violence in the family should be a red flag when you're looking for those people who are most likely to commit offences. And what would that red flag ideally from your perspective then do? What would they do with it? So they'd be the people that you would, first of all, you wouldn't close the cases. So we've had a series of terrorist attacks where someone's been investigated by the counter-terrorism police or MI5. They've decided that they don't pose a

threat. And so they stop watching them, stop keeping an eye on them. I think there's a very strong argument if a man is a violent abuser to actually keep him under surveillance for longer, to look at his behavior, see if he's continuing to abuse the family. And I did find a subgroup of men who were abusers but only became interested in extremism when the family finally escaped from them. And we know that women are at the highest risk when they leave their abuser. That's the next year is when they're most likely

to be very badly hurt or even killed. What we haven't appreciated until very recently is that those men, when their primary victim, the wife or the partner is no longer available they sometimes are so angry that they go out and start attacking people in public there's a whole series of those in my book so um lord anderson's report on the 2017 bombings did actually terrorist attacks did actually say that we need to look very seriously at these men if they have a traumatic life event by which he meant if their relationship breaks down. The red flags idea would of course make a lot of sense

to anybody listening who's not familiar with this but does that mean then we also have to get better at even knowing that that violence is going on in the home in the first place? That's exactly right so a report from a watchdog last month, one of those organisations with a very long title, said that something like three quarters of domestic abuse incidents are closed without anyone being charged. And we also know from academic research that a huge number of these incidents happen

before a woman actually reports them to the police. And that's understandable because she's quite often living with the man that she would have to report. And we don't have enough refuge spaces, not enough violent men are removed from the home. And, you know, if you're asking a woman to give evidence against a man who's beaten her up over a long period and she's still living with him, that's very difficult.

So I think what this calls for is a revolution in how we handle domestic abuse. Just looking at people thinking about also specific examples, you mentioned a couple, but also we of course remembered Biba Henry and Nicole Smallman, especially a few weeks ago when their mum spoke out and we played out that clip and she spoke to my colleague on the Today programme. A 19-year-old man was convicted of their murder. And how does that fit into this? So the killer, who, as you say, was only 19, he had been referred to Channel when he was only 15 by his school. And Channel is a statutory body that supports and assesses risk in people who've

come to the attention of the authorities for one reason or another. He came to their attention because he was using school computers to look at far-right propaganda. He was working with Channel for several months and then they closed the case because they thought there was no further evidence, anything to worry about in terms of extremism or radicalisation, terrorism. But what they seem to have missed is his very, very extreme misogyny. So when he planned these murders, which are almost too horrific to think about, he was actually writing notes in his bedroom at home promising. And, you know, there's been a lot of headlines about a pact with a demon and so on. What he was actually writing about was he was promising to kill six women in the next six months, only women. And he was also obsessed

with spells to make him more attractive. So it's well known that the police didn't get cooperation from the tech companies, so they weren't able to look at his browsing history. But one of the things that we really need to know is whether he was looking at incel sites, and these are involuntary celibates, very angry young men who blame women for the fact they're not having sex.

So I think that calls for a wider definition of radicalisation to include manifestations of extreme misogyny. Well, it's a whole issue, I suppose, that we could discuss at more length, which I would very much like to. And also, I'm sure a lot of people would have a view on. I wanted to just read aloud, though, to you because of your work with the government, what the Home Office sent to us in a statement. The Home Office and our law enforcement partners have a duty to protect the most vulnerable in society by working together to consider the relationship between violence towards women and girls and radicalisation we can better understand how to look for signs of concerning behaviour and offer further protection to those who might be at

risk as well as reducing the risk from terrorism. Prevent, the government programme provides bespoke interventions to individuals who are vulnerable to any form of radicalisation. By preventing abuse and intervening early, we may also be able to prevent radicalisation, which often builds on similar complex traits that are exhibited by abusers. You sound like you're singing from the same hymn sheet. What confidence do you have that this will now be used? I think talking to senior people at Prevent, and one of the things I wanted to say is that there's now quite a large number of senior women in the counterterrorism programme. And I think that's made a difference.

Some of them come from backgrounds where they've dealt with domestic abuse. There's a much greater openness to this. And what's come out of Project Starlight is a number of recommendations, including the fact that up till now, they do a domestic abuse risk assessment on adults. The question is, is it effective? Is it picking up the worst abuse? But they don't do it for under-17s.

And so, you know, there's a very strong argument that they should be doing that for under-17s as well, children who come from this background. And I think there is a real determination to use this to both safeguard women and children who are in abusive families and to safeguard the public. The question is always resources, because domestic violence simply does not have the priority

it should have in the eyes of ministers, politicians generally. I mean, it amazes me just how much violence there is towards women and girls in this country and how few resources the authorities have for investigating and getting convictions, which is very important. So it's like you've won perhaps a theoretical argument but the deployment of it you're concerned by. Yes, I mean, I'm always hopeful. You have to be.

I mean, I think, you know, getting this shift, looking back 10 years. Yes, it's fascinating to hear about it. And, you know, that connection is hugely interesting and important to have recognised. I just wanted to ask you while you were with us that this story today that you may or may not have seen about Eve Aston, a 20-year-old Manchester Arena survivor. You mentioned, of course, that attack, Salman Abedi. She was an Ariana Grande fan. She's been found dead in her bedroom. She struggled with depression. She couldn't bear loud noises since the suicide bomb attack, which, of course, killed 22 people.

I just thought while we were talking, especially about violence against women, but also terrorism and the linked with extremism, that the effects of this are long-lasting. Oh, they certainly are. And they're long-lasting on the families of the abusive men as well. I mean, this is an absolutely tragic story that she survived the attack and then, you know, four years later,

it's still having these dreadful effects on her. And I think sometimes, you know, when there is a terrorist attack, we concentrate on fatalities without actually thinking about the... you know, hundreds of people were injured in that attack. And I think that was a targeted misogynist attack. I think he chose the Ariana Grande concert punched her in the head for wearing a short skirt. That's very important information. He was referred to the police, but it was dealt with through restorative justice and he had no convictions for it. Joan Smith talking to Emma there. Now, the singer-songwriter Joy Crooks

was nominated for the Rising Star Award at the 2020 Brit Awards. GQ described her sound as thoughtful neo-soul, her voice a natural gift that exudes the warmth and huskiness of jazz's great vocalists. She incorporates details about relationships, self-reliance, her culture, her South London roots and her identity in her music. Born and raised in Elephant and Castle, London, the daughter of a Bengali mother and an Irish father, she grew up listening to an eclectic mix of genres,

everything from Nick Cave to King Tubby, Kendrick Lamar and Gregory Isaac. She was only 15 when she came to the public's attention. She's still only 22 after uploading a cover of Hit The Road Jack on YouTube and later performed Mother, May I Sleep With Danger on the global music platform Colours. She's now released Feet Don't Fail Me Now as the lead single from her upcoming debut album, Skin. Here's a clip.

I've been posing with red skies Retweeting picket signs Put my name on petitions But I won't change my mind I'm keeping up appearances The dark side of my privilege. And thank God I got my vice, the dopamine to wish them will keep me wrong from right. But I don't like when my better side takes hold of me.

The voice, amazing Joy Crooks, welcome to Woman's Hour. Feet Don't Fail Me Now, what's the song about? I wrote it in light of the protest, the Black Lives Matter protest last year and I didn't think it was my place to have particularly any answers but I think that as an artist it felt like the right time to talk about what was going on and write a political song from a more anthropological angle. And I was just very interested in how people around me, who used to never really care about politics or racism, for example,

pretended to kind of care and performative activism became extremely rife. But then at the same time, I found people that I was very close to be very quiet and not have anything to say at all. They were very complicit. And I wrote this song from the angle of someone that finds it much easier to stay quiet and assimilate

and stay in a group rather than speak out during a turbulent time for society in fear of the consequence of speaking out. One of the songs you've written is London Mind because you're a proud Londoner. So we've got to talk to you about growing up in Elephant and Castle. When I first moved to London, I was way up in North London

and I got on the wrong branch of the Northern Line and ended up in Elephant and Castle. And coming from Yorkshire, I'd never experienced anything like it. How has that environment shaped you? I guess Elephant and Castle is a reflection of London. I think London is probably the most multicultural city in the world. And having grown up around basically every culture you can think of, it affects everything.

It affects your mannerisms it affects whether you decide to take your shoes off when you walk into someone's house or not whether you address someone as auntie or by their first name uh you know how much seasoning you use in your food um and yeah it's i was just very fortunate to grow up here, in my opinion, as much as a lot of people viewed South London as a very dangerous area, this, that and the other. And of course, there was turbulence and there was struggle. But there is so much beauty in it being a very multicultural area and different people, different music, different food,

different superstitions. Yeah, and of course course your own background as well because your mum's a beautiful Bengali auntie Jasmine and your Irish father so you've got a mixture of cultures and how did that influence you growing up? Did you live in both worlds at the same time? My parents weren't together so I lived majority of the time just with my mum so it would be my mum and I and my brother came along and then I'd see my dad on weekends and during the week sometimes. So what sort of music were you listening to growing up? My dad was the one that got me into koala music but he also obviously listened to like very detailed and beautifully written Irish music which often has many stories in it and bands like the Pogues and

musicians like Van Morrison, Sinead O'Connor but also kind of everything and the same with my mum my mum kind of got me into like 90s and early 2000s kind of tunes and Kelis and you know Shakira and and all sorts and and encouraged dancing and so did my dad's kind of so music was you know Shakira and and all sorts and encouraged dancing and so did my dad's kind of so music was you know when you're from two very different backgrounds it is like a language that we all know how to speak. I have to mention there was an iconic moment for me when you went to the Brits and you went dressed in a lengua and I'd never seen anything like it before at the Brits and I think I actually cheered when I saw a photograph of you wearing that. Why was it important for you to wear

a South Asian outfit to the Brits? I kind of thought it would be funny. And not funny in like a ha-ha way, but funny in the sense that I knew that no one was going to have the same outfit as me. And unfortunately, that's because the amount of South Asians in the music industry, in the Western music industry,

is scarily low. And I did it because, at the end of the day, wherever I go, I'm representing myself for my community. For me, it's important that I turn up to places as myself. I knew that would make my mama and grandma proud. And also just to cause a little bit of controversy you know because I knew that as much as it's a beautiful outfit there was going to be some kind of controversy attached and it wasn't what I found really funny

as well is that it wasn't designer it was just from Mongust in Southall so even when all the fashion people were talking about these outfits on the red carpet, they're like, and this is this person in Burberry and this is this person in Jumanji and this is Joy. I don't know what this,

I know that this is Nassari. And I was like, this is so hilarious to me because it just goes to show like, really be no Asians in the music industry. But okay, cool. That must be quite an interesting space to be in then quite I mean it's depressing isn't it when you think about it no it is depressing

but it's also just like it's it's hilarious to watch everyone else do your job for you I like causing a little bit of disruption and it was just fun for me and at the end of the day our traditional wear is beautiful and I don't feel like I necessarily have to be in a design or this, that and the other to represent myself. I was comfortable and I felt strong and that was the most important thing for me in that kind of space. This is Skin from the upcoming album. Don't you know the skin that you're given Was made to be lifted

You've got the life You've got the life Worth living Wasn't that something? I was living Wasn't that something? That was Joy Crooks and her song Skin. Now, if you've laughed at shows like The Thick of It, Veep, Smack the Pony, or Have I Got News for You, then you've probably been laughing at lines written by Georgia Pritchett,

a multi-award winning comedy and drama writer. She's also collaborated with a huge range of comedians, Miranda Hart, Lenny Henry, Rory Bremner, Ronnie Corbett and Joe Brand are just a few. And she's a writer of the hit drama Succession, just about to come back for a third series. Can't wait. She's now written a memoir,

My Mess is a Bit of a Life, Adventures in Anxiety, which is about her life from childhood through to almost now. Here's a small taste. We're all doomed. My earliest memory is of sitting in my buggy in the snow. I was three. My mum said to my brother, don't fall over in the snow. Then my brother fell over in the snow.

This made me realise, one, bad things happen. Two, bad things happen even if you tell the bad thing not to happen. Three, we're all doomed. George, you're welcome. Your writing credits, both here and in the US, are quite spectacular. Before we get on to them, though, I'd like you to just tell us a little bit about how you started. You grew up in London, but how did you get into comedy writing? Well, I always knew I wanted to be a writer.

I think that's the one thing I've never been confused about. But I wasn't sure what kind of writing. I knew I couldn't write prose because I don't like describing things and I don't know enough adjectives. And I knew I couldn't write prose because I don't like describing things and I don't know enough adjectives. And I knew I couldn't be a journalist because I don't care about facts. And so it was actually my mum that pointed out that I would sort of watch my favourite comedians and sketch shows and memorise the dialogue. And that I obviously

enjoyed dialogue. So that made me think I was going to give script writing a go. Now, your first credit when it was read out, actually read out on Radio 4, it was read out as George Pritchett. And you say in your book, I'm quoting from your book, of course it was, I was the only woman in the room. Just how male dominated was the comedy writing world when you started, Georgia?

Well, it was all men. And I didn't have to bother with having imposter syndrome because I was the only person who wasn't a man and who hadn't gone to Oxford or Cambridge. So I was an imposter. And I thought at the time, you know, things will improve, more women will appear. But it was 25 years before I sat in a room with another woman and worked. That's just an extraordinary fact. 25 years. And you know, you write with a number of people. So it's not like there's just two of you. So there might have been what, six or seven writers and all of the rest of them were men all the time for a quarter of a century. Yes. Wow. Wow. And, you know, even when you started writing, you say in the book, you started writing for Jo Brand, one of the few women that you actually wrote for.

But you had to write jokes about her weight. I know. I mean, it was fantastic writing for stand ups and a great training for writing characters because you have to sort of inhabit them. But I remember at the time, you know, saying, should we do some material that isn't about your appearance? And she said, if I don't mention my appearance in the first minute of being on stage, I will get the most terrible heckles. And that's not a good way to start a set. So, yeah, we had to adapt to the situation she was performing under. I wonder how it works writing for comedians. You've written for many huge names. I mentioned

a couple of them, Ronnie Corbett and Lenny Henry. Miranda Hart. I mean, they're all very different. How does that collaboration process work? It's wonderful, actually. It's exciting, kind of, becoming these different people and putting yourself in their shoes.

I remember at one time I was writing for Joe Brand and Lenny Henry and Ronnie Corbett all at the same time. And they all talk about their physicality quite a lot. So I was sort of switching personalities. But it's yeah, it's a wonderful thing to collaborate with them. Such incredible performance. I learned a huge amount from all of them. And that must be quite different from writing collaboratively on shows like The Thick of It, Succession, Veep. I mean, I wonder if there are very many differences

in the way things work in the UK and the US. Yes, absolutely. It's incredibly different. And part of that is to do with money. You know, there's more money over there to pay for more writers to sit in a room. We don't really have that kind of money over here. So it's generally quite a solitary endeavour at home in your pyjamas. But in the States, I think it is very different, not just for those reasons, but they have always had a different attitude towards women in comedy.

So right from the earliest sitcoms like Lucille Ball and Mary Tyler Moore and Rhoda and Roseanne and Ellen coming through the decades, there's always been fantastic sitcoms with the women in the lead. And we just haven't had that over here. We've had women playing nags or slags, basically, either the sensible wife providing the setup line or the sort of hilariously oversexed older neighbour or something. Georgia, throughout your book, you're wildly self-deprecating. And you do say that writing is the perfect job for an anxious person. Until now, you've never written about yourself. And I wonder to what extent it was helpful writing about yourself. I'm asking this because one line in your book, you say, feelings are like pickled

eggs, best left unopened, no matter how drunk you are. Yes, I stand by that. It is the perfect job for a shy person. I literally get to put words in other people's mouths and hide behind the lines and, you know, only express myself by stealth. So to write a book about myself, I don't know what happened really. It was a terrible lapse in judgment or a moment of lockdown madness. Yeah, it's it's pretty horrifying to discover that I've written something so personal. Although this book made me laugh a lot, it covers so much and there are some, you know, very sad moments in it as well.

Before we go, I wanted to talk to you about Succession. It's such an amazingly, you know, it's a famous and a huge hit. The third series is about to come out. I wonder when you were first writing it, when you were approached to write about it, what you thought, what are the challenges and pleasures of working on Succession? Yes. Well, when Jesse Armstrong, who I, you know, started off in comedy with, suggested it, my initial reaction was I don't want to write about a bunch of entitled white men who are poisoning our world. But actually, it's been a really exciting challenge to dig deep into their characters and try and make the audience sort of feel compassion. Right. The other thing I wanted to ask you about was hanging out with

the First Lady of America and the First Lady of Comedy, along with, just by the way, Joe Biden, who's now the president. You were filming at the White House. I mean, it's just not something that you would expect from an anxious girl from Elephant and Castle. Tell me how that happened. I know, that was extraordinary. They asked us to film a sketch for Barack Obama's correspondence dinner. And I'm sure you know that at the correspondence dinner where all the sort of journalists and everyone in Washington attends, the only person who can't attend

is the vice president for security reasons. So at the time that was Joe Biden. So we did a sort of sketch with the real vice president for security reasons. So at the time that was Joe Biden. So we did a sort of sketch with the real vice president and Veep's fictional vice president, played by Julia Louis-Dreyfus. We did a kind of Ferris Bueller's Day Off sort of idea of what these two people got up to while everyone's backs were turned. And that was an extraordinary experience. And you said that Michelle Obama has got natural comedy timing,

I think. Oh my goodness, she's hilarious. She was absolutely brilliant and wonderful. When you can end an interview with a Michelle Obama anecdote, you've just dropped the mic. Emma's back on Monday. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. The deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.