Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Michelle Yeoh, SEND system, Friends 30th Anniversary, Living in a van

Episode Date: December 28, 2024

Oscar-winning Michelle Yeoh’s career has spanned four decades. Starting out as a martial arts actor, she became a key figure in the Hong Kong action scene. But it was her role in James Bond film Tomorrow Never Dies that catapulted her into Hollywood. She's since starred in many hits including Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and the multi-Oscar winning movie - including for her own performance - Everything Everywhere all At Once. Now, she’s in the film adaptation of the musical Wicked. She joined Nuala McGovern live in the studio to discuss it.We look back at a special programme, that came live from the Radio Theatre in Broadcasting House in London, looking at the support for children with Special Educational Needs and Disabilities – or SEND as it’s often known in England. Nuala heard from guest panellists including Kellie Bright, an actress in EastEnders but also a mum to a child with SEND, Katie, who is 17 and says she was completely failed by the SEND system, and the Minister for School Standards, Catherine McKinnell.On 22 September 1994, the American TV show Friends premiered on NBC and the characters Monica, Rachel, Phoebe, Joey, Chandler and Ross became household names. To celebrate its 30th anniversary, Anita spoke to one of the show’s writers and producers, Betsy Borns and the journalist Emma Loffhagen about why the show still resonates today.We hear from listener Siobhan Daniels. She wrote to us on Instagram: 'I would love you to talk about van life and an alternative way of living.' Siobhan is 65 years old and after selling her home and possessions has lived in her motorhome for the last five years. Preterm birth is the leading cause of neonatal deaths in the UK. Last month the House of Lords Preterm Birth Committee published a report calling on the government to do more to reduce the risks of babies being born prematurely and to improve the lives of those families who are affected. Anita discussed the proposed changes with Nadia Leake, who gave birth to twins eleven years ago at just 22 weeks and is the author of 'Surviving Prematurity,'Corinne Bailey Rae's latest album is a complete departure from her previous work. Black Rainbows is inspired by a trip to Stony Island Arts Bank, a Chicago-based archive of black art and culture. The record spans punk, rock, experimental jazz, electronica and more. She joined Anita for a very special performance live from the Woman's Hour Glastonbury picnic table back in the summer.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Welcome to a very special Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani, as we look back over the last year on the programme and what a year it's been you're about to hear a few highlights but there's a treasure trove of

programmes on BBC Sounds where you can listen back to the huge array of fascinating topics we've managed to cover on the programme in 2024 in the next hour As the very first episode of the iconic US TV sitcom Friends was first broadcast 30 years ago,

we hear from one of the writers, Betsy Bournes, on its enduring appeal. We look back at Woman's Hour's special programme broadcast back in September from the BBC Radio Theatre on the mums bridging the gap in the SEND system, that's Special Educational Needs and Disabilities, and the children being impacted. We'll hear from mum Kelly Bright, an actor in EastEnders,

and from 17-year-old Katie about their own experiences of the SEND system. We also hear from Woman's Hour listener Siobhan, who sold her possessions and now lives in a van. And if that's not enough, there's music from the lead writer and songstress Corinne Bailey-Ray, who was part of our Glastonbury special. But first, Oscar-winning Michelle Yeoh's career has spanned four decades. Starting out as a martial arts actor, she became a key figure in the Hong Kong action scene. But it was her role in the James Bond film Tomorrow Never Dies that catapulted her into Hollywood.

Since then, she's starred in many hits, including Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Memoirs of a Geisha, and the multi-Oscar winning, including for her own performance, Everything, Everywhere, All at Once. Her latest role is in the film adaptation of the musical Wicked, titled Wicked Part One. There is, of course, Part Two coming. Playing the character of Madame Morrible,

the headmistress and high witch of Shiz University. Michelle joined Nuala and Nuala asked her how this role had come about. Well, first of all, I was very privileged and honoured that John Chu, who I had worked with and Crazy Rich Asians, called me and said, please read the script. I would love for you to play the character Madame Morrible. And at that point, I had not seen the musical on Broadway or anywhere. So then I read it and I called him back and said, John, darling, it's a musical, right? And you know, I don't sing,

right? And he's like, nah, don't worry about it. You'll be fine. And he could have thrown a phone book at me. And I would have said yes to him because he's truly such a talent. He's such an amazing storyteller. And so I went off to New York and saw it in New York, came to London, saw it in London. And I guess I could understand why it's gone on for 20 years and still going strong. Because it is very relatable on many different levels. And you think, well, it's a land of ours. It's Munchkin land. How do you relate to that?

But if you listen to the lyrics in Defying Gravity, it talks about not allowing someone to limit you and what you can do for approval or love, but most important by yourself initially to find that journey and then to be able to choose for yourself what is the right path for you. You know, the way you speak about that, it resonates for me about what I've heard about your life. True, I guess. Because you've had this amazing path and martial arts was a spin-off, right? Let's talk about the beginning because you were destined to become a ballerina. You came to London to study ballet. I did, I did. I had aspirations of having my own ballet school back in Malaysia because my love was for the dance, the joy of expression on a dance floor and being able to teach that same kind of passion and love to little kids, little girls and boys to be able to feel what I did. But the fact that you've moved into acting and films came

because you had what you called a shattered mirror moment, this huge disappointment when an injury meant that you would not be a ballerina. How did you regroup and find that path that took you to becoming the first Asian woman to win the Academy Award for Best Actress in a Leading Role? It was like literally the mirror just go because the specialist basically said to me, you can't do this kind of dancing from nine till five because your back will just not be able to take

it. And but I was very blessed because Mrs. Hammond, the principal of the school, and I remember her so clearly in my head. She goes like, darling, it's okay. It's all right. Because, you know, there's so many paths to dance, to ballet. There's choreography, there's history, there's this, there's that. And she really helped me to find the Kruen Alsager College of Higher Education, where they did a degree in dance. So I was, my horizon was not, no longer just ballet, but into other things that could help. Martial arts came, well, I was given the opportunity

to go to Hong Kong to do a commercial. And in that commercial, my first person that I ever worked with was Jackie Chan. I know. You know, start at the top, Michelle, right? I don't know how it happened. And then I was very fortunate because the company, the production company, they're fairly new in the business in Hong Kong. And so they signed me up as an actress. And in the first movie, it was in Hong Kong in the heydays, in the 80s, action movies, comedies were the blockbusters. And so I was in an action film,

but I was doing the damsel in distress. You know, we were the women that needed to be rescued. And I looked at the whole action sequences and I thought, that's very similar to dance. It's all choreography. You know, you choreograph it and then you perform, execute it. And it's very much like dancing to a rhythm with a partner or a few partners. And that's how you make this whole thing work. So I bravely asked if, you know, it's possible that I could. And fortunately, one of the wives of the producers was like, and she was a great editor in her own right, says, yeah, you know, you bring Michelle. She's not a local girl, yet you fit her in the local box and do the same things. Why don't you open the box and let her try? Give it a go. Yeah. And it fails, put her back in the box again.

But you wouldn't go back in the box. No, I wouldn't. I know. I guess it's just something that my parents always taught me is like, believe in who you want to be, you know, be bold and take, yes, risks, right? Because if you don't try, you've already failed. That's the thing, I think, that the risk-taking is wonderful. And sometimes, this is Woman's Era, they talk about women being risk-averse at times compared to men. That's not you. That's not me. But life is about new beginnings, new adventures. You could call it a risk, but you can minimize the dangers or, you know, the risk factors. I think that's where you discover things about yourself and

give yourself new opportunities. I mentioned one of your shattered mirror moments about ballet and having that injury, which, of course, you went on to do great things. You don't have children. That was not by choice. You called it another shattered mirror moment, which I think is so descriptive. And I think it's important we hear your voice and your experience after that particular door closed. And I say that as we often hear about infertility struggles and what that entailed, but often with a miracle baby at the end. But that's not your story. No, that was not my story. I wasn't, honestly, not for the lack of trying because I have always and still do love babies. And I have, I'm very blessed. I have six got children. I have nephews and nieces around the world.

But I don't know, you know, that maternal instinct is something that's very you. I believe that it's a woman's choice. It's your choice whether you want to have children and it shouldn't be imposed on you. Just because you're a woman, you should have a child. That should not be the case. But as a very personal thing was I wanted, I always wanted to have children. And when I was married the first time,

that was very clear in our path that, you know, this was a marriage about having children, a next generation and all that. And when the first time it didn't happen, so I went and did fertility to aid in the process. And I think that that's the worst moment to go through is every month, you feel like such a failure. And then you go like, why? And I think at some point, you stop blaming yourself. You know, there are certain things in your body that doesn't function in a certain way. That's how it is. You just have to let go and move on. And I think you come to a point where you have to stop blaming you. I think getting to that point of letting go or acceptance, I'm really interested how you reconciled that and how long that took. Sometimes, honestly, I still think about it. Sure.

Yeah. You know, I'm 62. Of course, I'm not going to have a baby right now. But we've done some stories on women's health. But the thing is, you know, like, we just had a grandchild on the first day of January. I saw that. Congratulations. Thank you. So, you know, that makes the miracles. Then you feel you're still very, very blessed because you do have a baby in your life. I think it took a long time because that also maybe would be the main factor that broke up my first marriage. That is heartbreaking. Yeah.

But you also have to understand, I think these are conversations that you really have to have with yourself and be able to look ahead and think, yes, we love each other very much now. But in 10 years or 20 years, I still can't give him the family that he craves for. And you have to be fair. You know, that's why this dialogue between a couple is so important. Yes. Like if one wants and the other doesn't, this is something you have to face right at the beginning. That was the quite frankly awesome Michelle Yeoh

talking to the equally as awesome Nuala. Now, let me take you back to September when we recorded our special programme on Mums Bridging the Gap in the SEND system, that's Special Educational Needs and Disabilities. It was recorded in the BBC's radio theatre and it was a really passionate conversation. We heard from a panel of guests including Kelly Bright who's an actress in EastEnders but also a mum to a child with SEND. Also Katie who is 17 and says she was completely failed by the SEND system and

the Minister for School Standards, Catherine McKinnell. Well, Nuala kicked off the programme by speaking to Kelly about her experience. My experience, like many other SEND mums, is not a good one. I feel like I'm letting my son down most of the time. I feel frustrated. I feel fearful. I'm full of worry. I always question if I'm making the right decisions for him and his future. I think there's a huge responsibility that you feel as a SEM parent. And mostly I sort of feel like there isn't a place for him, that somehow he sort of falls between the cracks of what is actually out there on offer and he is in a mainstream school at the moment he is he's year

eight of a mainstream state school and what are the challenges then that he is going through on on a day-to-day basis well my son is lucky enough to have an EHCP which was not easy to come by and let me just for people who are not familiar with that, that is an education health and care plan, as it's called in England. It has different names in the different nations. And that is a legal document that follows a formal assessment. And it means that legally, your local authority must provide the provision agreed in your child's plan. That is it on paper. That's on paper it's a legal document effectively between the local authority and the school um and although he has this really and truly every day is still a struggle for him because unfortunately or whichever way you look at it the way education

is set up it's not set up for children with neurodiversity. It just isn't. And so it does affect his mental health. He does, you know, it's a constant stream of tests. And, you know, unfortunately, that's never going to serve him. And I worry, the worry for me is that I'm sort of putting him through this in a way I can't I can't sort of sit back and watch him struggle for the next four years but then what do I do because actually I don't think he's suited to a special school either but even if I did decide that we would try that I probably wouldn't get a place for how many years I don't know but the waiting lists are endless um so what then I just I would love to see an education system i don't i don't

think you can talk about send without talking about education as a whole really really that's that's my sort of standpoint and i think we have to look at making big bold changes to the whole thing if we're going to make education more inclusive and we're going to make it work for everybody and I want an education system that nurtures all children then those changes need to happen. It's funny, I don't think you think about yourself as a parent really very much. All my energy goes into my children, all three of my boys and I think I'm exhausted.

I mean, I think any send parent is exhausted. And it's not really, you know, neurodiverse children may bring their own challenges, but actually it's the fight that's exhausting. It's the absolute fight. And actually we all probably have jobs and looking after our children, just raising a family, trying to, we're on the treadmill of life, aren't we? We're running faster and faster just to stand still.

And on top of that, you're trying to fight for your child. And, you know, I definitely feel like I have days where I think I can't, I can't do it anymore. I'm overwhelmed. I can't do anything anymore. I wonder what it feels like when you are a child in the middle of it. I want to welcome Katie, who is a teenager. What did the SEND system do for you and your life? Well, honestly, it's completely ruined it. I'm 17 now. I haven't been to school since I was 13. I'm autistic. It all kind of started when I was five. I was having meltdowns. I was referred to CAMHS they didn't see me so I carried on through primary school I had intermittent bits of struggle and

then got to year six of primary school and the teacher was so focused on sitting SATs and getting SAT improvement scores that the pressure was just piled onto us as students so much and I started to really struggle I did get some accommodations agreed with the head teacher but my teacher ignored them because they weren't legally binding so I dropped out for quite a while. I didn't sit my SATs. I did get a referral to CAMHS but that takes quite a while. Mine was only six months which is remarkably quick but still not a good time frame and by that point I'd started in a big mainstream secondary school. I gyda fi. Roedd fy mhrofiad yn ddewis yn ddewis yn ddewis, ond ddim yn dda o amgylch amser. Ar hyn o bryd, fe ddechreuais yn ysgol ddynol mawr. Roeddwn i wedi bod yn ysgol ddynol mawr. Roeddwn i wedi bod yn ysgol ddynol mawr am 3 mis o'r 7 mlynedd, ac wedyn mi wnes i ffwrdd yn llwyr.

Roedd gen i gyfrifiad iechyd sy'n llawn i'r cyfan. Doeddwn i ddim yn gallu gwysio, doeddwn i ddim yn gallu codi, doeddwn i ddim yn gallu bwyso. Roeddwn i wedi cael fy diogelwch gyda disodr bwywyd ac roedd yn anodd iawn i'w rhieni hefyd oherwydd roedden nhw wedi cael swyddi, roedd yn rhaid iddyn nhw ddod a edrych arnynt, eu plentyn ddim yn gweithio. Ar ôl hynny, fe wnes i gael ei gyflogi gyda chyfarfodau HEC a roedd CAMS yn cefnogi fy rhieni ac fe wnes i geisio mynd yn ôl i'r ysgol honno ond doedd fy nghymorth meddwl yn ddim yn dda ac mae ysgolion ail-dynol yn mor amrywiol ac yn llawn ac yn bryd ac nid yn cael ei gyflogi ar bobl autistig. good and mainstream secondary schools are just so overwhelming and loud and busy and not built for autistic people so we looked at specialist schools but because I was already in secondary school they were all full it's so hard to get places for those and tried some alternative schools but they didn't work out so I got eventually got an EHCP that

specified education other than at school so I'm training to be a horse riding instructor now but fighting every step is so hard and I was diagnosed with PTSD last year from my time in year six of primary school which is why I can't go to school at all and I started speaking to my County Council because they were yn y prifysgol, ac mae'n rhaid i mi ddim mynd i'r ysgol arall. Fe wnes i ddechrau siarad â'r cyngor y cyrff cyrffol, oherwydd roedden nhw'n ffynnu'n llawer, ac yn siarad â rhai o'r cymiteithiau a chyfrannu i gael fy nghyffordd a chyfforddau pobl ifanc eraill yn cael eu clywed, oherwydd rydyn ni'n eithaf yn anghyffordd. Mae'r holl dynion sy'n gweithio'r systemau hyn yn ceisio gwneud ymddygiad â'r rhieni a chyffordd y bobl ifanc, ond pan mae person ifanc yn seilio yn y blaen ynddynt, yn eu ddweud mai dyna'r hyn sy'n digwydd, the adults who are running these systems like to just try and blame the parents and ignore the young people but when there's a young person stood right in front of them telling them that this is what happened they really can't ignore it which is what you're doing today yes well done katie and

if there was one thing katie that you'd like changed what would it be to be believed and not be fought on every single step. I would like my voice to be believed. I would like my parents' voices to be believed. I should be sitting my A-levels right now, but I'm not. That is not good enough because I know I am smart and I would like to learn. And it just impacts every aspect of your life. Listening to all of what we've been discussing so far is the

Minister for School Standards, Catherine McKinnell. Welcome again to Women's Hour. Thank you. What have you heard this morning from these mums that will stay with you? This is a really important opportunity to really hear you, to hear your voices, to really listen because we have said very clearly we want to put education back at the heart of national life and we think that children with special educational needs and disabilities should be at the heart of our education system and I think by doing that we get education right for everybody in our system and we get the best for every child no matter what their needs. In a Westminster debate last week one Labour MP Richard Bergen said it's not a crisis, it's now an emergency.

You've been listening. What will you now prioritise? As a Minister for School Standards, we want to see high and rising standards for every child, and that includes children with special educational needs. So the very specific changes we have made immediately, the first thing we did was change the role of the Schools Minister to include special educational needs as part of the remit because we see it as absolutely core to what we do in our schools and how we deliver education arising standards for every child we want to see inclusion as part of the way schools are measured so Ofsted we have already made the first step of changing the headline grades and Ofsted are looking at a report card system so that every parent every child and every school has a clear sense of how

they are doing on a whole range of factors and that for us will hopefully and obviously it's for Ofsted to determine those inspections but the report card system will include some element of inclusion as part of its measure. So schools will be striving to achieve inclusion. But fundamentally, we also want to focus on the early years. And I think one of the messages I've taken very clearly from today

is the earlier you intervene, the earlier you identify needs, the better you can meet them and mitigate anything that might develop later on. So we want to, we're rolling out actually next month, a training tool for those people that work in early years so that they can spot the signs of a special educational need or disability

and they are better trained and better supported. And fundamentally as well, we want to see more staff in our schools. That's why we are pledging to put 6,500 more teachers in our schools, because we recognise that if schools are going to achieve that inclusivity that we really want to see, they need the support staff, they need the teachers to be trained, they need a cohort of school staff that can really meet that need as well. So there's a number of issues there, funding not the least of them. I do want to read a little of Paul Whiteman, General Secretary of the School Leaders Union, the NHT, said schools work extremely hard to support pupils with special educational needs

but they're operating within the constraints of a system in crisis hamstrung by shortages of funding, capacity and specialist staff. Now I know you have just outlined what you plan to do but how long will these reforms take because for too long as i've been hearing mums have felt they've been fobbed off and the question is how do you prevent another generation of children missing their chance at a suitable education like we heard from katie um how long we've we've made a range of announcements um to get moving straight away because this is a priority for us but I can't pretend that this is going to be fixed quickly. It is going to take time. I want to turn to you Katie on what you've heard. Funding is an issue but the system has no

empathy for what children and families are going through. The education system likes to put children in little boxes and if you don't fit in that box you get pushed out and I don't see that government doing enough to tackle that particular issue. Bridget Phillipson recently tweeted that all children belong at school. I don't. I have PTSD. If I go into a school right now I will have a meltdown. I cannot go to school. I just want children, young people to be treated like individuals. That was Kelly Bright, Katie and the Minister for School Standards, Catherine McKinnell. And if you want to listen back to that programme in full, you can find it on BBC Sounds. It's

the episode from Tuesday, the 10th of September. We had such a huge reaction to this programme and to our other Send coverage on Woman's Hour and we will continue the conversation right here on the programme. Phoebe from Friends played by Lisa Kudrow singing the unforgettable Smelly Cat and this year we marked 30 years since the sitcom premiered on NBC. Yes, we've had three decades of Monica, Rachel, Phoebe, Joey, Chandler and Ross being household names.

And amazingly, it seems to still be as popular today as when it first started. Since it was added to the UK's version of Netflix in 2017, it's often been the most watched show on the streaming platform. Betsy Bournes was a writer and producer on the show's second season. She joined me from New York along with journalist Emma Luffigan, who's a fan even though it was created before she was born. I started by asking Betsy how it felt hearing Smelly Cat again,

a song she wrote. I enjoy hearing it. It was actually like many things on TV based on my dog, who smelled so badly that his name was Gouda. And the smelly dog didn't rhyme quite like, not rhyme, it just sounded ridiculous. And for some reason, smelly cat, completely normal. You actually co-wrote Smelly Cat with the pretenders Chrissy Hynde, who also appeared on the show. Tell us about writing it. What was that experience like?

Like all experiences, you're in a room with mostly screaming guys, usually work till four in the morning if we're lucky, and you get a little punchy and tired. And the Chrissie Hynde character is named Stephanie after my sister. It was really, really exhausting at the time. But, you know, in the morning, it seemed like a great idea. And it's great to see it on TV. Yeah. 30 years later. Can you believe it? No. I mean, I can when I look in the mirror and I think, wow, this is I've become my grandma who

wrote Smelly Cat. Why do you think it's endured? You know, it's funny. I have heard it on TV, the show in Italian, in French, in Hebrew. And for some reason, comedy is very hard to translate historically because of expressions and things like that, that don't translate. And for some reason, the song and the characters hit a note. And there's humanity. I mean, you can see Phoebe struggling through it. So there's some humanity, even in the most ridiculous things. And it's all in the writing.

I mean, every single episode, they are just brilliant and flawless. You mentioned being in the writing room then with all the men and staying up till 4am. brilliant and flawless. You mentioned being in the writing room then with all the men and staying up till 4am. I don't think we fully grasp what a writing room is. Can you just explain how an episode comes together? What did you do? I don't know. There have been movies made about the French Revolution and it's not funny. And this is sort of the the equivalent of that with jokes. But each writer will get a script, go off and write the script. Then you bring it back to the room. Hopefully it's funny. And it's, you know, eight screaming people saying, I can beat that joke. I can beat that joke. And that's how it's done. And the show has to be written every day, rewritten. You read it on Mondays. Then the next day, the actors have it. And either it's funnier than what you wrote or it's, oh, my God, what was I thinking when I wrote that? And that's the main process.

And it has to be ready for the Friday night taping no matter what. And we actually wrote new lines even on stage while it was being filmed. You know, there were six people and sometimes they would come, specifically Matthew Perry, could come up with great stuff on stage during filming. How did Friends change TV at the time? I mean, this was a time of telly where we only, well, in the UK, we only had like four or five channels. Friday night, it was on, it was appointment to view, you'd invite your friends around,

and if you missed it, you missed it. How did it change telly? Did you know what you were doing at the time? In the beginning, no. I was on Roseanne and I met a guy who I was trying to impress. And he said, you know, there's this really funny show that just started called Friends. And I thought, OK, I got to get on that show. So he'll he'll just be overwhelmed with me. Marry him immediately. But not knowing that this would change TV, It changed the status of my dating life. But then when it went on, it was appointment TV, and it would be the show Seinfeld and Friends,

and everybody showed up and would talk about it the next day. And I don't recall that in my life as being normal. And it was so different because it was younger than most shows. And it was, the characters were so well defined. And it was one of the, we used to say in sitcom writing, first write the story, don't think about jokes. And I think a lot of shows before that had thought about jokes and wrote the story around it. But this had real moments, but then they were broken by something. And I'm thinking of the scene where Ross and Rachel are about to kiss and you're waiting. And then out of nowhere, an angry cat jumps on Ross's shoulder and it goes from awe to ah, which is a lot of my life frankly but it was so silly and so in depth I think it became popular because it just hit people in their lives yeah it was something so universal about it I'm gonna bring Emma Luffigan in because Emma wasn't even born but she is a when it when it was first on tv but

she's a diehard friends fan why are are, Emma, Generation Z or Z just as attached to the show as the Generation Xers that first watched it 30 years ago? Yeah, I was not born. I'm born in 99. Alright, no need to rub it in. We know you're young. Methuselah should be my

pen name. So I started watching Friends when it was on reruns on Comedy Central. And then obviously it came onto Netflix and that opened up to even more audiences. But I think what you were saying about it being universal is probably the biggest draw. Like no matter when you're in your early 20s, those themes of kind of bumbling through life and trying to figure out what you're doing with your life they they're always relatable but I think more than that it's kind of the balance that it strikes between being relatable and still being kind of aspirational like you know Monica and Rachel have this amazing apartment and they all dress really well and you

know all the characters are beautiful and very conventionally attractive so it's this like kind of relatable but also very glamorous version of being kind of floating around your early 20s not knowing what you want to do with your life so some people just just to pick up on that because some people use that as a criticism of how it's not actually aged well because there is that kind of you said aspirational it's not really that real and also the lack of diversity he said conventionally beautiful what do you think about that i mean yeah that is obviously i think a lot of people are a little surprised that it's still so popular with gen z because we're seen as a generation that's very critical of that kind of

oversight. And, you know, you're right, it is in this kind of fictitious version of New York where there are only white people. But I think that kind of thing, it kind of underestimates us as a generation because, yeah, there are bits of the show that are dated. I mean, some of the jokes about Monica, for example, being overweight is just a punchline in and of itself and seen as a kind of moral failing. And the jokes about Chandler's dad as well, being trans, that is also a punchline. And it is uncomfortable, those things. But I also think we can kind of put it in the context of when the show was made. And it doesn't tarnish the entire show and much of the brilliant writing. I think, you know, there are a few episodes that I don't watch back,

particularly the ones with Chandler's dad. But yeah, it's one of those things that I think we can put it in that context and still enjoy the fun of it as well. What about, Emma, the fact that there are no mobile phones or internet? Yeah, I think the lack of social media is really nice to see and those relationships not being impinged by the internet at all. It is kind of this nostalgia that we all, you know, that seems like the good old days to us.

And it's kind of like a period piece now. Like you look back and you're like, oh, wow, they have all this connection without ever being on the phone. I'm just going to bring Betsy back in for that. A period piece, Betsy. Yeah, I feel like I was co-writing with Oscar Wilde at this point. I'm really, I promise you, even though apparently none of you were sentient when it was

born, it was great. And also, I think with the internet, you can get in more trouble. I used to love to use people and situations from my life. And now I think, wow, those people wouldn't be talking to me anymore, including my parents. Including your dog as well. My dog. And I wanted to comment on the lack of diversity. Yes, please do. I absolutely agree. And I, with Chandler's dad, I mean, you wouldn't think of making that joke. It's incredibly insensitive.

On the other hand, Ross was married to a woman who was a lesbian and left him for that. And when I was on Roseanne, we did that story. And as far as I know, on Friends, that was the other story. And we got network notes saying, no, too much. That was Betsy Bournes and Emma Lofaghan. Still to come on the programme, music from Corinne Bailey-Ray. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any day of the week. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, just subscribe to the podcast.

It's free via BBC Sounds. Back in the summer, here on Woman's Hour, we gave the reins over to you, our lovely listeners. During Listener Week, we heard stories as diverse as widow's fire, tummies and risky sports. But our first guest of the special week was Siobhan Daniels. Siobhan got in touch with us on Instagram about her alternative way of living. Five years ago, she sold her home and most of her possessions to do something that might appeal to some of you. She decided to live in a van, a motorhome to be exact, at the age of 60 and has been travelling around the UK for five years. Well Siobhan joined us from her van, Dora the Explorer, and Nuala started by asking

her why she decided to take to the road. Well basically I got to a stage in my life, sort of mid-50s approaching 60, where I felt really broken. I'd had a brother and sister who'd both died of lung cancer. I was struggling with the menopause and I was struggling at work. I felt marginalised and voiceless, something that I know a lot of women, when they get to my age, sort of approaching 60 feel. And so I just, one day I had an incident at work and I remember going into the toilet and just looking in the mirror and sobbing to myself, I want to stop pretending I want to find me I want to find my happy place I know it sounds melodramatic but that's genuinely how I felt and so then I just started trying to figure out a way of doing it and eventually I came up with the idea of a motorhome but where did that

come from and what we do I don't know scrolling used cars and went, oh, you know what? I'm going to live in a van. No, I really don't know. I had all these ideas in my head and I literally woke up one morning and I thought motorhome and it was like a eureka moment. And I'd never holidayed in one, never driven one, hadn't got a clue. And that is a big leap though,

because at first I would have thought that you would have kept flat or wherever you were living, rent that out and then maybe do your thing in the van but why did you feel you needed to go the whole hog I think also I I felt in society we were working long hours to earn lots of money to clutter our lives fill our lives with stuff I had my flat was full of beautiful things and on the surface it looked great. But I was so, so unhappy. And just really going through the motions just existing to pay bills for all this stuff. So I kind of thought with my crazy mind, if I get rid of it all, and I'm not worried about

spending on all this rubbish, then I can focus on finding my happy place. And I've realised after five years, I really don't need much. So how did that feel, though, selling up or whatever way it was that you donated? Like when the house is gone, the clothing is gone, the possessions? It was a bit of sort of hysteria at the beginning. I thought it was all absolutely hilarious, giving my friends my possessions and they'd come round for dinner and I'd say, you can take this, you can take that. But when the reality hit in, and I remember turning the key in the ignition in the motorhome in 2019, sort of giggling and crying at the same time thinking, what the heck are you doing? Where are you going? And I genuinely didn't know, but I somehow had this innate belief that

it was going to work out. You know, I've never felt happier. But, you know, immediately I began thinking of, let's take it from brass tacks. You get in, you've put the key in the ignition. Where are you going and how are you figuring out how to manoeuvre that motorhome if it's something you haven't driven before? Well, the dealers were brilliant. When Ioeuvre that motorhome if it's something you haven't driven before? Well, the dealers were brilliant. When I first bought the motorhome, they knew, they could tell I hadn't got a clue what I was doing. And they paid for me to stay on a motorhome site for a night to get to grips with various things. And driving it, I got terrified. But my brother, Paddy, had had a motorhome. So I was forever ringing him up. And eventually I just thought, go my own speed,

calm down if there's people behind me. And I've got to grips with driving it now. And I absolutely love it. Let's talk about the good, the bad and the ugly. Okay, the good. What's the upside? I imagine it's that freedom. It's being mistress of your own destiny. And I, through this, I found my voice and my inner warrior and I'm more courageous about exploring places. So I'll go to parts of the country that I really don't know. I went up to the Outer Hebrides at the end of last year and spent five weeks just going from island to island and it was just heaven. And I went to Ireland itself and travelled around Southern Ireland for five weeks and spoke to the locals and found places. So I found my courage and I found my sense of adventure and I found me.

I really, really, I'm living. When I was before with all the trappings, I was existing. I wasn't living like many of us do. Now I literally stop and I have my cup of coffee and I sit on the doorstep of the motorhome and I listen to the birds and I feel the wind on my face. Things my mum used to say to me and I'd roll my eyes thinking, oh, for goodness sake. But I'm doing it now and I feel the benefits of it. I go and walk in bare feet on the grass. So let's talk about the bat.

I mean, immediately I'm thinking something you mentioned there, maybe the motorhome place. I was thinking, OK, how do you ensure your safety wherever you go? You are a woman traveling by yourself, possibly to places that there mightn't be many other people around. I don't know. You tell me. Yeah, I take all the precautions that you would do when I lived in the flat on my own. I've got an alarm on the motorhome. I've got locks that I put on the pedals, metal locks. I've got locks on the wheels. I get the seatbelts, wrap it round the door

and then put it in round the seat and that stops it opening. I wedge things up against the door. I stay on a lot of certificated location sites which only take five vehicles. They're not the big sites, but they're in lovely remote places and farms and fields. But I feel secure staying on those.

For me, staying wild camping is one step too far. I've done it in Scotland because it's geared up for that. And especially on places like Harris and the Outer Hebrides, you just text the council and you can stay in the most beautiful places. But listen to your gut instinct. If it doesn't feel safe, if it doesn't look good, then move on. Okay, let's get to the ugly.

What about, I think I was reading about, as you were learning the various aspects of van life, you have to do quite a bit for yourself. Some of it may be not so pleasant. Yeah, the emptying the toilet. In fact, I put on my TikTok emptying the toilet and I've got 50 odd thousand people who viewed it. There's all sorts out there.

But yeah, emptying the toilet, filling the water. Other than that, though, there are not a lot of negatives. Now, Siobhan, I think you've inspired me, although I'm not really sure. It's the toilets that would be of biggest concern for me. Anyway, Siobhan Daniels's there living life the way she wants and that we fully approve of now the evidence is unequivocal the government's target to reduce the rate of pre-term births from eight percent to six percent by 2025 will not be met that was the finding from a new report by the house of lords-Term Birth Committee published

last month. Pre-term birth is the single biggest cause of neonatal mortality in the UK. This report is the end result of an inquiry looking into how the statistic can be improved in England. Among the recommendations, the report calls on the government to put greater focus on the needs of parents, as well as develop the maternity and neonatal workforce. I was joined by Nadia Leek, who gave evidence to the committee of her experience. She gave birth to twins pre-term and has written a book called Surviving Prematurity.

You may find some of the details distressing. We also heard from Caroline Lee Davey, who is CEO of Bliss, the leading UK charity for premature babies, and Conservative peer Baroness Laura Wilde, who sits on the preterm birth committee. I started by asking Nadia why she felt she wanted to share her story. As soon as Harrison was born, and his brother Rafe, who sadly died at three weeks old we knew that these circumstances we were in were so far from what we wanted we'd been desperate for our family our twins were the

product of the fifth attempt of IVF and we had been trying for so long so when we arrived at the hospital unfortunately at 23 weeks pregnant to be told that it was too early. I was fully dilated with bulging membranes. I didn't really know what that meant at the time. But I understood that I was about to deliver, it was imminent, and there's nothing they could do. So not only were we in a situation where these babies we'd longed for were set to be born and then die, we were told we could hold them in our arms and they could take their last breaths with us. We then got to the point where the care team there said, actually, let's give this a go. We will try to intubate these babies, which is to insert the breathing tube to help them survive.

Where were you? So we were at the wonderful Barnet and Chase Hospital who saved our children. And again, this story meanders a bit in that we live in the northeast of England. I'd come to Hertfordshire for a family celebration at 22 weeks pregnant thinking what could go wrong? And on the way home,

this is why we ended up at Barnet and Chase on the approach to the motorway I said to my husband I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable let me use the services and there was bright red blood evident so that's what led us into the nearest hospital which was Barnet and Chase and this night of absolute terror where we stayed overnight. I delivered the boys at about 6pm. By midnight, they were transferred to Queen Charlotte's in Hammersmith, fantastic hospital there and unit there. But I wasn't taken to, well, we couldn't leave to go to Queen Charlotte's until the following afternoon. They moved, it was the right thing for them to be moved to a unit that could support them and stabilise them.

But I didn't see my children again until the following afternoon. How was that experience? The emptiness left in you. I slept because I'd been awake for 24, 30 hours at that stage. But it was fitful. And I was up and dressed by about 6am the next morning, desperate to get out and go and find my babies. They were across London.

When did you get to see them? It was about 2pm the next day. We went to the hospital where they spent most of their time at that point. Rafe died in Queen Charlotte's at three weeks old and our journey continued with Harrison. And the separation, so because we were actually in London when we live in the North East, they managed to find us some accommodation,

which very rare to have accommodation so near your baby. So that was life-saving for us all, that we could actually be with him as much as possible that is not the case for so many families and this is what has brought me to continue to advocate and campaign for families who need that additional support to be with their families if you have other children at home now these were our first children yeah so I could spend all the time um I wanted to with with Harrison and Rafe. But there are so many barriers to keeping families together.

And this is what this work is about. And it was, you know, my heart swelled when I saw in the report talking about accommodation, talking about family integrated care and keeping families together. So tell me what you think could have been done differently for you and what you spoke about. Yeah. So because, and this is where my real understanding of how different other families' experiences comes from. So we had our babies in London. We stayed in London for about 10 weeks and then transferred back up to the northeast once Harrison was well enough. And what I saw there was that the difference in care

was around the environment it was around the staff ethos in how they would support families to be together so in London through sheer luck we had accommodation near our family we had a department who included us in all care decisions who very much enabled us to be parents and have those moments of intimacy and love and bonding and those firsts that are just so precious to pick your baby up. And they really supported that and enabled that for us. When we moved to the second hospital back in the northeast, they were very much pract a i would say a less

evolved model of care called family-centered care and at that stage our role in our baby's care and and development was lessened a little bit just through the model of care so i'll give you an example unfortunately harrison's first bath was in this second hospital and at the time the nurse says well i'll show you how to bathe your baby and the nurse bathed our baby while we watched and took a video of it and looking back you're so disempowered yeah when you're in any hospital environment you are beholden to the people who are looking after you so we watched and we enjoyed it at the time but looking back that was our baby's first bath and i did not touch him these are the small things that now there's been so much education, so many initiatives now to think about first for families,

that first bottle, that nappy change, the things you take for granted at home, that unfortunately in a care situation, and this could be months worth, we were in hospital for over four months, where those things might not happen and you can't get them back. And in the case where your baby dies it's lost forever yeah it's crucial you're grieving one child and then you have this

desperate situation where you don't know what's happening um with harrison and and you you just have to go with what the professionals around you are telling you right because you don't know any what what what's the right thing to do absolutely and I will say I never questioned the medical care yeah of course we were looked after so well it was the things that make you a family that were taken away on occasion and those are the things for me that led to the long-term mental health concerns, PTSD even. When Harrison came home, I would pick him up in the night, as you would do to feed your baby, but I could see his dead brother's face when I was holding Harrison. And were you given support?

The understanding of the impact of a neonatal stay, It's getting there. But I would say most healthcare professionals in the community don't understand what you've been through. And therefore, the support that's offered is often not what you need. So I did go to my GP and I said, I'm not okay. And I was offered bereavement support, but that wasn't the problem. I've got to ask about your boy Harrison. How is he now? Harrison is a 12-year-old boy doing 12-year-old boy things. He is absolutely wonderful. Just back to the prematurity, he is autistic, he has ADHD

and these are the things that are at higher risk for babies born preterm but he is smashing life and he's well liked at school. His teachers are extremely proud of his progress and how he's doing. And as parents, Martin and I could not be more proud of that boy. Nadia Leak there. And if you have been affected by anything you've heard in this discussion, you can find help and resource links on the BBC Action Line website. We have a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care.

They said, while change will not happen overnight, we're working urgently to address stark health inequalities and ensure all women and babies, regardless of background, receive safe, personalised and compassionate care. We've committed to training thousands more midwives and we will tackle wider social determinants of ill health which increase the risk of pre-term birth by shifting the focus from treatment to prevention as part of our 10-year health plan. An NHS spokesperson said the NHS is committed to ensuring all women and babies receive high quality care before, during

and after their pregnancy and while the health service has made improvements to maternity services in England over the last decade, we know further action is needed. We are increasing the number of midwives and obstetricians and our three-year delivery plan for maternity and neonatal services, which is supporting midwives and doctors to reduce the number of babies born early and provide the best care when preterm birth cannot be prevented. That's it from me. On Monday, Claire MacDonald is joined by the author and feminist campaigner Joan Smith, who in her new book asks why, despite the huge amount of interest in ancient Rome, one story doesn't seem to have changed.

Rome's imperial women are still portrayed as wicked stepmothers, schemers, murderers and nymphomaniacs. So do join Claire at 10 on Monday. Have a lovely weekend and I'm not going to see you before. So have a wonderful new year. Over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.