Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Miscarriage, Maggie O'Farrell on stammering, Women and alcohol-related liver disease

Episode Date: November 30, 2024

Losing a baby in the early stages of pregnancy can be an extremely painful experience. Having to explain to your employer why you can’t come to work only adds to the difficulty. In the UK, there’s currently no entitlement to time off for miscarriage within the first six months of pregnancy. The Women and Equalities Select Committee is hearing evidence on extending the right to bereavement leave to cover losses up to 24 weeks. Sarah Owen MP, Chair of the Committee and someone who has experienced baby loss, joined Nuala McGovern to discuss. When the Stammer Came to Stay is award-winning author Maggie O’Farrell’s third children’s book. Based on her experience of living with a stammer, it celebrates differences and explores children’s resilience in facing new challenges. She talks to Anita Rani about the book and how her stammer has shaped her life. Why are more young women dying from alcohol-related liver disease than ever before? BBC journalist Hazel Martin, diagnosed with the condition in her early 30s, has been investigating how her social drinking habits put her life at risk. Hazel joined Nuala along with Professor Debbie Shawcross, Consultant Hepatologist at King’s College Hospital, to explore the growing crisis and its causes. After writing her Spinal Column for The Times since 2010 —beginning just two weeks after breaking her neck and back in a riding accident—Melanie Reid has decided it’s time to stop. She joined Nuala to discuss why she’s stepping away, her reflections on the journey, and her plans for the future. Song-writing partnership Abigail Barlow and Emily Bear are making history by becoming the youngest and first female songwriting duo to compose for a Disney feature film in Moana 2. The Grammy Award-winning pair joined Nula to discuss their musical partnership. Kim Cypher, a saxophonist, composer, and vocalist, is a regular on the London and UK jazz circuit. She recently launched her third album, Catching Moments, and joined Anita in the Woman’s Hour studio and performed live.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. On the programme today, writer Maggie O'Farrell on her experiences of living with a stammer. We look at the growing number of young women whose social drinking habits are leading to alcohol-related liver disease. We'll hear from Barlow and Bear, aka Emily and Abigail, the youngest and first all-women songwriting duo to score a Disney film

with Moana 2. And if that's not enough, we've got music from teacher turned jazz saxophonist Kim Cipher. So don't go anywhere and turn it up. But first, losing a baby in the early stages of pregnancy can be an extremely painful experience. Having to think about what you're going to tell your employer about why you're not able to come to work can compound the difficulty. In the UK, you are not legally entitled to any time off work if you experience miscarriage in the first 24 weeks of pregnancy. You do have maternity rights after 24 weeks of pregnancy when it comes to pay and leave. This week, the Women and Equalities Select Committee heard evidence for the case of extending your right to bereavement leave to include the first 24 weeks of pregnancy. Nuala asked Labour MP and chair of the committee, Sarah Owen, why it was so important to have this conversation.

I think this is a priority because it happens to so many women and it affects so many families across the country. We've had a lot of progress in other areas of women's reproductive health, but I feel that this area of miscarriage and particularly bereavement leave for miscarriage has been lacking. What are you looking for? So the inquiry that started this week by hearing from people's personal testimonies, we'd heard from women who'd had up to 10 miscarriages and actually wanted to do something very different each time and it affected them in different ways. So first of all we want to look at why it's needed, how employers can do this and why some are choosing to do this. We'll be hearing from the NHS and Dentsu and does it need legislation to force all employers to do it? And what do you think at first blush?

I don't want to predetermine the outcomes and the recommendations but from what we've heard there is such a mixture of experience out there. There are some really good employers, there's really good management skills out there but actually it has been lacking for a large number of women particularly women in insecure work or in low-paid jobs. And so if somebody miscarries in those first 24 weeks, what are they eligible for? It depends on their employer's policies, but legally they're not entitled to anything other than sick leave.

My understanding, you talk about personal testimony that you have been hearing, and I'm sure it's very moving. I know you yourself have had personal experience of it, if you're comfortable speaking about that. I am. I've had three's very moving. I know you yourself have had personal experience of it, if you're comfortable speaking about that. I am. I've had three miscarriages since the age of 38. I'm 41 now. Two while we were trying to conceive my beautiful rainbow baby and one following that.

And each were very, very different and painful experiences for different reasons. And I wanted different things from my employer at different times. and one of them was whilst I was an MP as well. And can you explain that a little whether it's your experience and I'm sorry for your losses, whether it's your own experience or what you've been hearing about what might be needed that's different in different scenarios? I think it's women's choice whether it's my experience or the women that we've heard from in this inquiry or people that I've heard from in my constituency, it's choice. It's knowing that they have the choice to not choose sick leave because it reinstates that there's something wrong

with you. And quite often you will have something physically wrong with you. If you have to have a DNC procedure, you have to go on to general anaesthetic, there's a lot of medical support there for you. And it may be physical, but also there is time to grieve, there needs to be time to grieve, otherwise you store up problems later on. And I think that that's what some of the employers will be outlining, that actually it saves time and money, and also the individual pain in the long run. And DNC, a procedure that people may need to undergo following a miscarriage. And I think with that as well, the first 24 weeks, it can be such a tricky area, depending on the employer as well, and the individual, over whether you want your employer to know you're trying for a baby. Yes, and this is the problem that many women face.

They don't want to be overlooked for promotion or a project or to be seen as that person that's just wanting to start a family and that's their focus. I mean, even when I was shortly elected, I had a journalist ask me, I was seven and a half months pregnant when I was elected and they were very much like, oh, well, you know, you're going to be going on leave, what's going to happen? And I explained the proxy system,

I explained what was going to happen. And they were like, well, baby's always going to come first, which is a really shocking thing to say, because there's no right answer. You're either left with, you know, no, baby doesn't come first, and you're an awful mother, or yes, of course, baby comes first, and you're an awful MP. So I think that we are in a place where actually we don't talk about pregnancy in the way that we do talk necessarily about menopause now we've seen progress in this area but I'd say that miscarriage and the journey of pregnancy isn't talked about enough it is a complete myth that we see on television and in movies where a woman pees on a stick and it you get the double line and then

it fast forwards to this montage where she's pregnant and there's baby showers and things. That's not the majority of women's experiences in getting pregnant and staying pregnant and having a baby. That's not the experience for many of us. It's a journey and miscarriage, unfortunately, is a part of that for a quarter of all pregnancies. And if there was statutory bereavement leave pre-24 weeks, do you think that could change the conversation, the culture? Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's just knowing that we're entitled to that. I know that many women probably wouldn't take a huge amount of leave. It also means that they wouldn't be adding up or totaling up sick pay, which I know is a worry for many women workers. And it would stop the reinforcement that there is something wrong with your body, that there is something wrong with you, that you could have done something different.

Because in many cases you can't. And it actually acknowledges the loss and it's not just the loss for the woman it's the loss for the partner for the husband um for the parents both of them that were expecting and hoping for a baby it is interesting actually just as you talk about that and i suppose pulling back the veil in a way if you know a colleague is on leave for that specific reason, I suppose it could make it a more compassionate workforce as well, because I imagine many women go back in without saying anything to anybody. Absolutely. I've heard care workers talk about how they lied and said that they were off with flu. And actually then sensitive conversations and conversations can't even with the best will in the world. Colleagues will probably be insensitive by accident and it causes unnecessary pain. And also it's not a healthy workplace where a woman's loss cannot be acknowledged.

I had in my second pregnancy loss, we actually went to a memorial and in the the team meeting, I'd said, oh, I'm going to a funeral. I didn't say who and I would have said who normally, because I thought, oh, maybe they might be thinking this is a bit silly, or, or why would you do this for somebody you never met? But actually, you carried them, you knew them, you hoped that you imagined what they were like and um eventually I just said actually no I want to tell you all why is where I'm going and of course they were incredibly supportive the men and women there and I'm really grateful to them but they had to have the opportunity to do so because they otherwise they just didn't know that is incredibly moving Sarah I think this is the experience that women have across the country.

Like I say, that's why I think this inquiry is so important. We don't talk about it enough. And I am done with feeling like they're my secret. And they're not. They were part of our life. They're part of our family. They're part of my story. They're part of my body.

And I think that it's time that society honors them and honors the fact that you know we talk about paternity leave paternity leave why aren't we talking about miscarriage when this is part of a pregnancy journey in the same way IVF is the same way adoption is for some parenthood. There is a journey and this is part of it. Pregnancy is not a simple thing for many people. We've been speaking particularly about women's experiences, but of course there will be partners in this, men and women. Would potential statutory leave for miscarriage also extend to partners i think we'll look to the outcomes of the recommendations i would say that there is an argument for it given what we heard from the testimony from the women one woman she nearly died driving herself to a and e because

she bled out her husband wasn't offered leave um and had to go to work. And she drove herself to A&E. Like that is shocking. When you have a DNC, as I say, you're put under general anaesthetic, you need a person to come out with you. You're not allowed to leave the hospital alone because you've been under GA and you've had an invasive procedure. So in an ideal situation, you would have somebody with you every step of the way. And also, if you are on leave, what are you doing? Sat at home by yourself with your own thoughts? Actually, if you have time to grieve, you usually do that best with somebody else.

So I think it is something that we'll be asking in the inquiry. And we've been talking all about pre-24 weeks potential leave. How different is it post-24 weeks of pregnancy? You will get the maternity leave, you'll get bereave potential leave. How different is it post 24 weeks of pregnancy? You will get the maternity leave, you'll get bereavement leave. And it is a very strict cut off. I would hope that employers are flexible, but we do know that there are bad employers out there. And particularly that women are paid less, they're less secure in the workplace already. So actually tightening that up and recognising the loss pre 24 weeks is really important. Is there a timeline on it, I should ask? We are open to hearing as a committee, as Women and Equalities Committee, from hearing from people's

experiences. So please do log on to our website, email us your experiences if you feel that you want to, and also to hear from employers that are doing this and that are finding it beneficial and and the reasons why they are is really important and if you're a business as well that feels that this isn't for you i do want to hear your concerns because i think we have to address those and make sure that we lift the barriers for employers to be able to do this for all of their workforce sarah owen mp speaking touala and if you've been affected by anything you've heard links to help and support resources can be found on the BBC Action Line website and a spokesperson for the Department of Business and Trade told us losing a child at any stage is

incredibly difficult and we know many employers will show compassion and understanding in these circumstances. Our Employment Rights Bill will establish a new right to bereavement leave, make paternity and parental leave a day-one right, and strengthen protections for pregnant women and new mothers returning to work. Now, When the Stammer Came to Stay is award-winning author Maggie O'Farrell's third book for children. Beautifully illustrated and based on her own experience of living with a stammer, it's a story that celebrates differences and explores the resilience of children as they

learn to navigate new and seemingly very difficult challenges. I spoke to Maggie on Friday's programme. It's one of my most autobiographical works of fiction because I'm writing about a little girl who develops a stammer, as I did when I was about six or seven. What happened? What do you remember about it? I remember with that kind of weird child logic that when I started, when I was really little, my stammer manifested as this kind of repeated sound, a kind of classic stammering. And I remember as a really young child thinking, maybe no one else can hear it. Maybe it's just inside my head. And then unfortunately, my classmates, some of my classmates started

taking the mickey out of me and imitating me. And then I thought, oh, okay, other people can hear it, which is not so good. So, and I, as a child, it was, it was very much like that. It was that kind of, that trapped syllable and being unable to launch the word. And then when I was an adolescent, you know, obviously adolescence is, everything is embarrassing when you're a teenager. And, you know, being unable to speak is just horrific at that age. And so I kind of swallowed it and I kind of clamped down on it.

And instead my stammer morphed into this problem where I just blocked and I had this kind of total stoppage and fluency and I couldn't speak. I mean, I never really put my hand up in class to answer questions. And I see the most painful thing for me was because English literature was my favourite subject. So when we were reading aloud a novel or we were reading aloud, say, Macbeth, I was never able to put my hand up and say, I'd like to read Lady Macbeth or Banquo.

I had to just keep quiet. Well, in the book, there's two sisters, Bea and Min. And Min is the chatty one and the sort of out there and wants to vocalise everything and it's her that gets this stammer and you just feel it and she goes within herself. But then she has this beautiful older sister who helps her own her power. You have sisters.

I was thinking about this relatively recently and I was thinking, gosh, it's so lovely. My sister's never, ever made fun of me. That's nice. And I mentioned this to my mum and she said, yes that's because I threatened them but to be honest to be fair my sisters were very supportive but uh I think really with the book I wanted to write about a stammer from a kind of serious point of view because too often unfortunately in films and in books when stammering is represented it's always for laughs you know you're we're always being invited as a reader or

an audience to look at the comedy and how hilarious it is that this person can't get their words out or repeats this syllable or said strange things or sometimes stamps or you know stammerers have been known to kind of hit themselves because they're so frustrated and somehow to release the word and we're always you know that, it's always presented in that way, which I obviously really hate because it's very, very far from amusing to have a stammer. You know, we are, as a species, we are wired for communication. We are wired for speech and language.

We're the only species in existence that has that facility. And it's absolutely crucial to every single interaction you have throughout the day. And if that is problematic for you, it is nothing short of a nightmare. So I thought I really want to write about having a stammer, which is serious, and show people actually what it's really, really like. Yeah, it's heartbreaking when you're reading it, when it happens to her. Because you see her retreat into herself when she gets this,

because obviously she's a child and she doesn't know how to deal with it, or know what's happening to her. You described your stammer as being the single most defining experience of my life. How has it impacted who you are as an adult? Well, having a stammer, being unable to rely on your voice and on your spoken language, it affects you in all kinds of different ways. And it can dictate who you can and can't be friends with. It can dictate what kind of job you can do

I mean I could never ever have done a job where I had to say cold call someone I could never have worked in a call center I could never do anything that I had to initiate conversations particularly on the telephone that would have been my tele telephones were an absolute nightmare for me and the day that email and texting was invented I was a very very happy woman I mean my husband I'm 52 and my husband still makes my dental appointments for me because just because I hate doing it makes me very flustered and start to stammer again. So it does. Or you could just use it as your, you use it as your excuse to make, get him to make all your appointments for you. No, he does it very kindly. I just say to him, could you make this call for me?

My stammer is a kind of weird, it has an unerring eye for people that I maybe perhaps wouldn't trust very much. I used to find this particularly when I was in my 20s and I was going on dates, that if I met a man and I would start stammering, I'd automatically think, okay, there's no future in this relationship. Brilliant radar. As a child, if you stammer, it gives you, or it gave me anyway,

and I'm sure it gives other people, a real hypersensitivity to language and grammar and meaning. Because if you're in a conversation and you're a child, you're automatically thinking ahead of what it is you're going to be expected to say or you want to say. And you realise that you can't launch off. You see, I always have, all stammerers have problem sounds. One of mine was M. Bs and Ps and Es were really, are really difficult for me. So saying my name was very problematic, for example, still is actually sometimes. But when you're in conversation, you're performing this kind of linguistic slate of hand in your head. And you're thinking, well, if I want to say that, I can't launch off on that letter. So how can I flip the sentence? Can I flip the cause?

Can I think of another synonym to say that? You're automatically editing yourself at all times. I think that's been instrumental in making me a writer, actually. And also, you cannot overestimate, if you're a stammerer, just the absolute joy of writing, the physical act of it and seeing those words and sentences and paragraphs just coming out of your pen with no problem. It's just absolute bliss. Yes, and the joy we get from reading those sentences and those words. Is it known why people get stammers? I don't think it is. I think there are lots of theories, but nothing very concrete.

Some people think it's neurological. There has recently been some research that it is linked to dyslexia. I'm not dyslexic as it happens, but I don't know. And I had a slight brain damage from encephalitis as a child and a speech therapist. I didn't get speech therapy until I was 40, actually. I self-referred myself on the NHS to do it then. And she was saying, yeah, it could be something to do

with the damage I got to my cerebellum when I was a child. But who knows? Nobody really knows. It affects more men than women. It's about 1% of adults had it eight eight percent of children's have have it so it's a bit mysterious what happened at 40 actually weirdly enough it was connected to this very program what did what happened well it was I was talking about one of my novels and it was I was being interviewed by Jenny Martin I'm absolutely not saying it was Jenny Murray's fault, not at all. But she asked me about a character and I, for reasons unknown to myself, I called my character, and I'm going to have trouble saying it now, Elina.

And suddenly she asked about the character and I needed to start the sentence by saying Elina. And I just couldn't do it. And there was this awful long silence, which to me felt like about a year. And Jenny Murray looked at me over her half moon spectacles and they looked at the producer and actually i did suddenly think okay i can say she and then i was able to do it but just that moment on live radio of suddenly blocking i thought i felt i thought i was going to be sick um so i came out of that interview and i thought i have to do something about this i can't carry on like this and I've never had speech therapy it wasn't really suggested it wasn't really a possibility I believe it is now which I'm very glad to hear I think I've heard now that if you start stammering often

teachers or parents or doctors can intervene and you get to see a speech therapist but in the 70s and 80s it wasn't really a thing at all so anyway I self-referred myself at 40. And amazingly, I got sort of, I don't know, five sessions on the NHS and I saw this wonderful therapist and she was great. But so yes, in a way, it was Woman's Nail that spurred me to do that. And we've had you back on to tell us the story. I mean, the message of the book is about the acceptance of stammering and it not to be something that you feel shame around. How long did it take you to come to that understanding? Well, it was a really long time. I think I had been operating for most of my life on the sort of the logic of my adolescence,

which was that you have to hide it. You have to pretend it's not happening. You have to try and avoid letting people know that this is happening. And somehow I'd got kind of stuck in that mindset, I think. And when I went to speech therapy when I was 40, I imagined, I don't know why, I thought it was a bit like physiotherapy and we do lots of kind of exercises and vocal

exercises and things. But actually it was more like therapy therapy. And we talked a lot about why I stammered and when, and she asked me to keep a stammering diary. And one of the incidents I told her about was going into a chemist and trying to pick up, which is hard to say, pick up a prescription. And the chemist had asked my name and I suddenly couldn't say it. And the chemist had kind of tittered and said, oh, have you forgotten your own name? And I just was so kind of embarrassed

by the whole interaction. I told my speech therapist this and she said, but why is it so terrible? Why don't you look this person in the eye and say, I have a stammer. If somebody laughs at you, you know, look me in the eye and say, I have a stammer. And she said, I want you to practice that. Say it back to me now. And so I said to her, I'm sorry, I have a stammer. And she

said, no, you're not to apologize. You just say, I have a stammer. And that was a really revelatory thing for me, because I don't know if it's true of children particularly, but I think, you know, if people do laugh at you when you stammer, it's not really coming from a place of cruelty. It's coming from a place of ignorance. They don't really know what's going on. But if people know, and if I do say that to people now, and they're absolutely horrified and they say, I'm so sorry, please, you know, take your time. And that's the magic thing you have to say to a stammerer, I find. If you have a stammerer in your life, please, please don't ever finish our sentences. Don't ever suggest a word. Don't ever try to second guess what it is we're trying to say. Just please look us in the eye and say, I see that you have

a stammerer, you know, just take your time. And if somebody does that to you, it's like a key turning in a very rusty lock. Suddenly the speech comes out and it's all okay. So I think getting it out there and saying, you know, I have a stammer, I have a problem with fluency. It's a kind of magic spell in a way, for me anyway. Maggie O'Farrell there giving us a wonderful magic spell. Now, Disney soundtracks have a way of capturing the hearts of not just children, but adults too. A couple of years ago, We Don't Talk About Bruno from Encanto broke records as the first Disney song to top the UK charts, holding the number one spot for five weeks. Now Disney fans have a new reason to celebrate.

This week, Moana 2, the long-awaited sequel to the 2016 film, opened in cinemas. Behind the soundtrack is Abigail Barlow and Emily Bear, a Grammy-winning songwriting duo. At just 26 and 23 years old, they're making history as the youngest and first ever all-female songwriting duo to compose for a Disney film. Nuala began by asking Abigail how they met. A mutual friend introduced us and said we might make good music together. And we just sort of hung out as friends first. She came over to my house and we watched The Bachelorette and I made French macarons. said we might make good music together. And we just sort of hung out as friends first. She came over to my house and we watched The Bachelorette and I made French macarons.

And we just connected over being young women in the music industry and not going to college and not having many friends. I mean, it's hard out there for a young woman. What do you remember about that? I mean, were you saying, oh, there's the woman I could win a Grammy with? No. Oh, my God. We just really bonded on like a personal level, which I think set us up really for success when we wrote together for the first time. Because there was like a really nice comfort and mutual respect in the room that sometimes is harder to get when you're working with much older people or a bunch of guys or people that are more established.

Because you're so afraid to like stand up for your ideas and not be pushy or overbearing and not disrespectful. But the first time we wrote together, we were like, oh, okay, there's something here. There's something there. That must be so exciting to realize that you've got that creative compatibility. Who got the call about Disney and that you were being asked to write the score from one or two? Well, it was funny because people take general meetings all the time. It's just like a way of life in the industry and nothing really comes from them. Except we took a general with this guy, Tom, who ended up hiring us.

So what's a general meeting? What, it's like the company says, come in, let's have a chat? Yeah, like either your agent or the company will just set up like a let's get to know each other sort of thing. But nothing like specific in mind. And at the end of our general, he said, you know what? I think I might have a project in mind for the two of you. Stay tuned. And when was that?

Four years ago. Four years ago. And then about a year later, we got an email that said they're making a Moana sequel and would we want to talk to the creative team? And of course we said, what? Obviously. And we sat down with them just on Zoom and made a case for ourselves telling Moana's story this time around. What was the case? As young women who are just trying to find our place in the world, we definitely related to Moana's emotional journey in the second film. She's a little older, a little wiser, but this time everything's different

and her emotional stakes are a lot higher. She's got everything she ever wanted from the first film and now she's been asked to give it all up. I think it's really special to write for a peer because I was literally Moana's age when we got the job and musical theater is all about putting yourself in the shoes of someone else and honoring their perspective on the world.

And it's shockingly rare that we get to see women telling women's stories, especially in the Disney universe. So no one knows a girl's mind better than a girl. We're going to give our listeners a little bit of a sneak preview here. Let's hear a little of Beyond from Moana too. How does that feel to hear it again? Both of you immediately went into a different world. I mean, it feels wonderful. We love the music and we've lived with it for so long. We've been working on this album for two and a half years and it's finally going to get to see the light of day and sort of take on a life of its own. Yeah, so it's exciting to hear it kind of like fly off from the nest.

But it's surreal. I mean, we grew up on Disney movies. We love the movies. They're part of our childhood. And the fact that we're able to help continue on the legacy is a pretty crazy thing to say. I went down a rabbit hole off your TikTok account here, which I really enjoyed, I have to say.

But, you know, I was watching you, Emily, conduct, you know, this wonderful orchestra with music that you have scored. And I'm wondering what that feels like. Hearing an orchestra play my music is the happiest place on earth for me. I'm happy as a clam. It's like peak Emily Bear. And there's nothing quite like standing in front of them. It's terrifying because you're looking at the face of like 60 to 80 incredible musicians and you know they've spent their entire life dedicated to music. Standing there and knowing that like what your arms are doing and what you're trying to convey emotionally is

controlling the sound is, it's crazy. They're big emotions just even a little clip that we heard you know what I mean this is swell you know. But the conductor is there for emotion. You're really rallying all of those players to feel it with you. And it's a very special thing. Let's talk a little bit more about TikTok though, Abigail. I really enjoyed your videos as well. And for you and for Emily, it really was a game changer, I think. Definitely. Tell us a little bit of that journey. You know, I've been growing my social media following since I was 16 years old, still living with my parents in Alabama. So I've always been a child of the Internet.

And, you know, I think getting to just express myself and grow something organically was really, like, formative for my inner artist. And when I met Emily, I just kind of, I suggested that we do what I used to do online, which was to sing and write songs in front of strangers. And, you know, we found a little pocket of the internet who loved watching that process. So it was definitely a game changer. I'd say a big pocket. Yeah, I'd say so too Shockingly big pocket. What about the unofficial Bridgerton musical? For people that are not familiar with it, how would you describe it? I'd say it is an album that we created, a concept album that was sort of imagining a hypothetical Bridgerton stage musical.

After watching the TV series, we sort of just got inspired to write music. It was born out of the worst part of COVID when all creatives were really suffering. And we just started writing, and it was so fun, and we were feeling so creatively fulfilled. And we found community online, which I had never really experienced before because I really only started social media truly because I saw how Abigail was using it and I was inspired. It forces people to listen, you know, because a lot of times you don't really get taken seriously as a young girl trying to make your way in the industry, even with everything that we've done. And so the TikTok experience was crazy because it just forced open the door and said, hey, we know what we're doing and people like it.

What are the creative differences? What do you argue over? Be honest. Honestly, we don't argue very much. Our Venn diagrams are kind of perfectly placed. You know, we're so different. Our backgrounds in music are so different. We see music. What are your backgrounds in music are so different we see what are your backgrounds in music i started really young in the industry i was in the ellen show six times when i was starting i think at five to eight years old and every time i was in the show i'd write a different piece of music and that kind of started like a whole performing career on ellen degenerative yeah and so i started performing everywhere but i i studied at juilliard where i did classical piano jazz piano and composition.

And then I met this guy, Quincy Jones, when I was like eight, nine. This guy, Quincy Jones. No big deal. You know, he was, I read, a mentor to you in many ways. He sadly died, of course, earlier this month. We heard about, you know, again, what an amazing musician he was and also a force really within the industry. What was the impact of his mentorship on you? He was many things to me.

He was like a musical grandfather. But I met him at a really wonderful place in his life where, you know, he didn't need to do anything. He just lifted up young musicians because he cared so much about the spread of knowledge. And I feel like so many people at that level, at that level of success, they lose their love for the craft along the way. And his hunger for music and his love for the craft was the most important thing in his life. And I think it was probably the most inspiring environment to be in as a young musician because, you know, he realized how powerful it is. And it's all he ever wanted to learn and do. And your background, Abigail?

Yeah, I grew up in the theater, in musical theater, and I thought I was going to go to school for it. And then I did a scholarship program and met a songwriter in the U.S. of A. And fell in love with songwriting, wanted to, you know, make pop music and be an artist. So I started growing my social media following, started posting on what was musically, it was TikTok before it was TikTok. And then, you know, moved out to L.A., graduated high school early,

and just kind of started songwriting and building a portfolio of music. And then this beautiful marriage of minds came together. Two of the songs from Moana 2 are for consideration for the Academy Awards, which must be amazing. One question for both of you before I let you go. There was kind of this whole conversation Dwayne the Rock Johnson weighing in on the UK premiere of Moana 2, whether people should sing along in the theatre or not. I say you should. That's Abigail?

It's a case-by-case basis, you know. But with Moana 2, that you have a dog in the fight. Yeah, I mean, nobody really knows the music yet. So if you're going to go a second time and sing along, we'd love that. I agree. I agree. I think it depends on the movie. For Wicked, I understand.

For Moana, do whatever you want. Enjoy. It's all about joy. And what a joyful interview that was abigail barlow and emily bear and moana too is in cinemas and the soundtrack is out now still to come on the program jazz musician kim cypher will be blowing her saxophone and remember that you can enjoy a woman's hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10 a during the week. All you need to do is subscribe to the podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Now, why are more young women dying from alcohol related liver disease than ever before? That was the subject of a BBC Panorama documentary this week. The BBC's Hazel Martin was diagnosed with the condition she's never been dependent on alcohol,

but used to drink on nights out with friends. Doctors told Hazel she could die if she didn't stop. She's been investigating how she became one of a growing number of young women surprised to discover how their social drinking habits put their lives at risk. Nuala spoke to consultant, hepatologist, Professor Debbie Shawcross, but began by asking Hazel about her experience.

I was 31. I had not long been back from maternity leave to work and I was tired and you think of course you were tired but I went to the GP and the GP ordered blood tests. And what came up from them was my liver function, which was elevated, the numbers that they were supposed to be. So that led to more blood tests and then eventually led to an ultrasound and then eventually led to what's called a fibroscan. And that showed that I had severe alcohol related liver damage. I mean, what was it like to get that news? Because I'm just thinking young girl out about town, have a little baby, maybe whatever celebrations here and there. What was it like? It was, I think the biggest shock was actually, you know, in the run up to that, because that because you know I had been told this could be happening to you you know this is something that we're exploring but I think it's not until you

sit down and you are told this is what has happened to you this is how it has happened and you need to stop otherwise you're in big trouble because this is the words that were that were used you know liver disease is a silent killer and most people don't know until it's too late and to hear that I mean it hit me like a ton of bricks and you know but at the same time it was strange because there are no symptoms in the early stages and so even though I was tired I felt fine on the one hand, I was being told this big diagnosis, you know, this huge life change for so many reasons, which I'm sure we'll get onto about alcohol in our society

and a big part of my life, but also with, but I feel okay. So how can my liver be so upset with me right now? And I think people might be thinking, how much did she really drink, okay? And I think the part of the documentary that really struck me is what binge drinking is. I mentioned it at the top. It's more than six units for a woman at one sitting, shall we say. So that could be equivalent to three medium glasses of wine. I'm talking about 175 mils, for example. That is binge drinking.

Yes, and actually, Nuala that it's even less than you think so I just want to say that I don't make any excuses for the fact that I drank a lot socially I did you know in my my late teens through my 20s um you know life kind of took over and I did a lot less but it was I still um you know I I ended up with this liver damage so I'm not going to make any excuses for that however I truly believe that I wasn't drinking in a way that was different to anybody else around me and that's not to blame anybody

because it's not what this is about, it's not what this film is about it's not how I am as a person but I do truly believe that it was just so normalised and I didn't realise at the time just how much damage was being done to part of my body. And actually binge drinking, you mentioned it there, saying that it was, you know, three glasses of wine. Binge drinking is anything over six units from a woman and it's actually only two glasses of wine, two large glasses of wine in one sitting and if you do that say once a week over a long period of time your risk of developing alcohol-related liver disease or ARLD increases two or even threefold and if

you drink three glasses of wine or you know heavy binges as it's known as you know your likelihood as a woman of increase of developing this increases by up to four times. I want to read some of the messages that are coming in that I want to speak to Professor Debbie Shawcross as well. Hazel, you're staying with us. Catherine wrote, she says, I began binge drinking in my teens

and continued until my early 30s. Once I started, I couldn't stop. I would drink way over the official binge drinking limit. I think most women are unaware of this. Now at 53, I barely drink as I feel awful after just a little bit of alcohol.

I'm pleased I was able to stop for the sake of my health. And I'm going to come back to your health and how it is now, Hazel, a little bit later. Here's Carrie in London. I gave up alcohol when after menopause, my body couldn't no longer tolerate it. Kickstarted by a dry January almost two years ago. I noticed how amazing I felt when I cut out alcohol. Professor Debbie, what are you seeing in the hospital? We are seeing a huge increase in men and women, but particularly women presenting younger and younger with alcohol-related liver disease. And it is shocking because if you look at the national statistics,

the incidence of heart disease, cancer, strokes, they're all going down. Liver disease is going up exponentially. And each year we are seeing more and more cases presenting with liver disease. So what's happening? I mean, why has this changed if everything else is going down? Do you have any thoughts on that? Well, it's very much lifestyle related. Alcohol, of course, we're talking about today, is the number one concern that's driving this. But also, liver disease can also develop when we have unhealthy diets, when we put on weight as well. So we're having an obesity epidemic. And that's also making people's livers more susceptible to the effects of alcohol.

But actually, when we look at the statistics post-COVID, people are just drinking more alcohol than they were before the lockdowns. So we've changed our drinking habits and we've not changed them back. And it's a worrying concern. And the ages we're talking about, for alcohol-related liver damage, it is still older men that are most effective. But it's here that we're seeing this exponential growth you're talking about. What age women? So we're seeing it in all age women. But actually, in the most recently published Office for National Statistics report, actually, the highest rise were in women in their 50s.

So we've seen a huge jump. And that probably represents drinking from the age of you know from the early 20s and 30s because it usually takes about 10 to 20 years for women to actually develop the signs uh you know of advanced liver disease it's not something that happens overnight usually it's it's something that as hazel mentioned you don't realize you've got it until it's too late and you develop symptoms and Hazel was actually very fortunate because actually she presented to her GP and had the relevant tests to actually identify this but actually many women will not do that

and will not know that their livers are damaged or certainly at harm from drinking And Hazel you gave up the booze you got a much better result on your liver. Congratulations. That's great. Thank you. How long did you give it up for? So I gave up for 10 months and between fibre scans. And that was my result, which went from... So a fibre scan is a non-invasive ultrasound and it tests your liver stiffness.

So anything over a reading of seven, sorry, under a reading of seven is considered normal. Anything over a reading of seven is considered fibrosis and anything above kind of 12, you're kind of heading more towards a cirrhosis. So my reading was 10.2 initially. It's high, right? I mean, there's no doubt.

And Debbie is nodding her head here as well. And I'm glad it came down. But I'm wondering, what response or reaction did you get from people? I don't know whether you've become evangelical about this with your friends, because you've still got the same set of friends, I imagine, that are still drinking. Oh, of course, of course. But listen, you know, I would never judge

anybody. I still serve wine. You know, I don't hate on alcohol. I don't have any regrets, you know. Alcohol played such a big part in my life, but I don't look back on it and think, oh, I wish I'd never done that. You can't take it back and actually look what we've done as a result.

You asked me about my kind of relationship with alcohol. Yeah, because I'm just thinking if you're a poster girl now you know in a way among your friend group at least maybe more after the documentary goes out about the risks of having X amount of glasses of wine. No of course and I think you know I don't know whether I was

unlucky or you know what happened has happened but I certainly think you know whoever I have spoken to about this film not one person has said I don't know what you know whoever I have spoken to about about this film not one person has said I don't know what you mean when I've told them this is what we're doing this is what I'm looking into this is what I'm working on everybody's got a story and everyone wants to share they're coming in thick and fast Debbie I want to run this first one by you because I was talking about the couple of glasses of wine Hazel was saying even once a week could be binge

drinking my wife and I drink a bottle of wine a night is was saying even once a week could be binge drinking. My wife and I drink a bottle of wine a night. Is it still considered binge drinking if you do it every day? Yes and it's probably more than binge drinking actually because it depends whether it's a bottle of white wine or a bottle of red wine. A bottle of white wine probably has 10 or 11 units and a bottle of red wine probably has closer to 12 or 13 units because it's usually stronger and whether you're sharing that or whether you're having that yourself, that's too much alcohol. And we recommend really that anybody who does drink alcohol regularly should have two or three days each week when they... To let the liver recover.

To let the liver recover, absolutely. So you shouldn't be doing that every day. It's so important that we watch what we drink. What are the symptoms? I know Hazel mentioned being tired all the time. Well, actually, as I say, for probably the first 10 years, you won't have any symptoms. And this is the scary thing. You will have damage that will gradually be developing in your liver over 10 to 20 years. And you won't necessarily feel anything. Although probably you will have lower energy levels. You will feel tired. You won't be as fit as you would normally be. But that could be a touch of a hangover or liver damage. Well, it could be. It could be, you just don't know

and this is why it's important. I think if people who are listening today are thinking actually maybe I am in this category where I am drinking more than, you know, having binge drinks or drinking more than I should be each day that actually you go to your GP, you go and get a blood test, you go and get a fibro scan like Hazel did

and you actually go and identify if you're somebody who could be at risk or have early signs of liver disease. That's such an important message. Professor Debbie Shawcross, consultant, hepatologist, King's College Hospital and Hazel Martin speaking to NULA. Details

of organisations offering information and support are available online on the BBC's Actionline website and you can watch BBC Panorama's Binge Drinking and Me on iPlayer now. Columnist and author Melanie Reid wrote her first spinal column in the Times newspaper in 2010, just two weeks after breaking her neck and back in a riding accident. She thought she might have enough material for a month.

Almost 15 years and many awards later, she's just published her final spinal column. So what does she remember of those early days? I typed it out painfully with one finger and pressed send. And I didn't reread those columns for several years. I didn't have the strength to. I was just expressing the grief and the bewilderment and it was like dispatches from the front line. I think that's a really powerful way

of describing it, dispatches from the front line. And for those that are not familiar, as I mentioned, you had broke your neck and back in a riding accident. This was life changing injuries that had happened to you. And you'd just come off a ventilator, I understand, i understand when you wrote that i mean what was going through your mind when you're like i need to get this down in some way shape or form well i think i was slightly bonkers with all the morphine and i was convinced that i was going to get sacked because i was something so terrible it happened that i would lose my job and i was a the main breadwinner. And it's totally irrational. But I thought, well, if I give them something, they won't fire me. And also my journalistic instinct kicked in. I could tell that this was good stuff. This was good copy. It was,

I was in this strange, strange world that nobody knew existed. Nobody in the fit, happy world existed, knew existed. And things were fit, happy world knew it existed. And things were happening to me that were quite extraordinary. And it was kind of like, hey, there's something to tell here, guys. So I just, I rambled into a dictaphone in the beginning. And when the opiates were reduced, I got in front of a laptop and started typing. Have you reread those early columns now? It took several years and it was very painful.

I probably took about 10 years before I could read them. Yeah, I mean, you never really recover from something like this. You just learn to live with it. And yeah, I don't enjoy going back and reading some of those columns.

Yeah, it could be re-traumatising, I am sure. But you are at this point now, 50, I find it difficult that it's 15 years later, so I can't imagine how it feels to you. You've decided to end this column. Why now? Do you know, it's absolutely my choice. And I just felt that I wanted to go out on a high.

Again, the journalistic side of me knows that when columns start to get tired, they get tired. And I didn't want that to happen. Also, my husband, Dave, the beloved Dave, who made so many sacrifices for me. He's quite a lot older than me and he has a condition that's quite cruel. And he needs a lot more time and attention. So it's time for me to devote more time to him. And I couldn't I can't write about him and his condition. So I didn't want to do fake cheery.

And I I just felt go with grace, go, go. You know, I mean, I've written a lot of undignified stuff because spinal injury is undignified. But I thought, gather the tatters of your dignity about you and get out in a high mail. So that's what I did. And I read it. And for people who haven't, it is very moving. And I suppose it does bring one chapter to a close, shall we say, as we read it. What do you think, however, will be the legacy of this column? Don't be modest.

I am. I just can't help it. It would be great to think that I helped. I certainly helped raise awareness on spinal injury, for sure. I I mean there are 50,000 people like me who've suffered this kind of traumatic injury at any one time in the UK. Up until I started writing the column, you know, people had heard about Christopher Reeve but that was it and nobody knew what it meant really unless you had someone in your family. So I've definitely helped move the dial on that. I helped raise a little bit of money. I started writing about what it meant to be disabled at a time when disability wasn't really discussed like it is now. I think there's been quite a revolution in those terms. We didn't have identity politics. We didn't have that whole thing about disability politics. I'm not totally into disability politics, but it's great that it's a thing and it is great for younger people. I do think I was part of a start of something

that helped change public attitudes. Did you make a conscious decision that nothing would be off the table, so to speak. Yeah, kind of a no holds barred. Was that conscious or is that like, that's my life, just deal with it? Well, you know, there's a lot of pee and poo involved when you're paralysed. And I got away with quite a lot in the times. There were things that my magazine editor couldn't go with.

And I, you know, there were things that I ended my magazine editor couldn't go with um and i you know there were things that i i ended up not writing about um but it's darkly funny it is it's real life um and there are tell you there are there are hundreds of thousands of other people out there with chronic illnesses who go through it every day you know fra, frail elderly, you know, it's just that nobody ever writes about it in the mainstream media. I did what I could. It was, I mean, I self-censored. I ended up self-censoring because you can't write about, you can only write about so often.

And when I wrote a book, I was a bit more frank in the book, but I, you know, in newspaper columns, you could only go so far, but I went a lot further than other people had gone before. And, you know, maybe I can be proud could only go so far. But I went a lot further than other people had gone before. And, you know, maybe I can be proud of that. Of course you can. That's my legacy, maybe. And I think there's a couple of things. I think definitely that.

I think when you talk about, you know, whether pee and poo, for a lot of people, towards their end of their life, they will need care in some way. A lot of people also talk about just being, you know, nobody is that far away from it. I'm always struck by one woman who is in here talking about caring, saying, you know, we live in breakable bodies and that's just a fact of life that some people do not want to recognise. But I was struck by just how many people got in touch with you, you know, that brought your photograph, I don't know, up the Himalayas or brought you to a beach or wanted to get your name tattooed on their arm?

It was really, really lovely and overwhelming. I feel very loved. There are many people out there who are lovely, friendly strangers to me. They're strangers, but they feel that I'm their friend and they feel like friends to me, a lot of them. I've tried to correspond with them. People who are in my circumstances and who feel that I've me, a lot of them. I've tried to correspond with them. People who are in my circumstances and who feel that I've given them a voice,

but also healthy, fit people in the nice, shiny world who I've given them pause to think a bit. And that's great if I can help give people a little chance to put things in perspective a bit more. Melanie Reid speaking to Nuala. And finally, a little something to jazz up your afternoon. Described as funky saxophonist meets 1940s jazz singer, Kim Cipher is a saxophonist, composer, vocalist

and a regular performer on the UK jazz circuit. She's wowed audiences with sold-out performances at venues like Ronnie Scott's. But it could have been so different for her leaving school when she was encouraged to pursue a career in banking and insurance. She trained to become a teacher and taught music in primary schools for 17 years until she knew she had to pursue her first passion, jazz. She's just released her third album, Catching Moments, and I started by asking her where her love of jazz came from. I've always loved music. I don't know, you know, from an early age, I just felt that I could go up to any instrument and just, I was drawn to it, you know, I wanted to pick it up and play it. And my mum and dad always had big band music going on.

My dad used to stand in the lounge and pretend to conduct the band, you know, so there was music all the time at home. How magic. I know, it was wonderful. And then one year, my sister and I were bought a piano. And I just remember going up to it and thinking, oh, yeah, play some melodies on the piano. So it kind of started from there. When I found the saxophone, it was just like that moment of like, wow, what was it? because people often say it's the hardest hardest thing to pick up what was it about the saxophone oh I don't know I think because I went through you know the usual instruments like recorder and I dabbled a bit on the piano and then I played the clarinet but for me they they weren't sort of they weren't funky enough they weren't enough to allow

me that sort of um slightly rebellious kind of expression and when I found the sax it was just like yes now you're talking yes right funky so right. Funky and rebellious. It's not a coincidence that Lisa Simpson plays the sax. I know. So cool. So, and then you went off and you met your husband, Mike. Yes. And it's a reason we mention him because he's in the room.

He's going to be playing in the band. He went into banking. He went into teaching. Yeah. And then decided to change your lives completely. Well, we did. I mean, we both loved music from an early age and we were always in bands we met in the Gloucestershire Youth Jazz Orchestra when we were 15 and I think you know that was always kind of the path we wanted

to take but I think so why not well so I think back in the day if you said you wanted a career in music they didn't really know what to do with you you know what do you mean a career in music it's a hobby. So I ended up training to be a teacher purely because the course was expressive arts. So it allowed me to play and compose and do other expressive, creative things, which filtered me into the primary school role, which I absolutely loved. You know, working with the children and doing music, it was wonderful. All children can do music, you know, and this is what the beauty of the arts is,

is that, you know, all children can do it in their own way. They've got to be allowed that freedom. But, you know, it's difficult because when you're in a classroom and you want to create music, you have to have noise. And, of course, all the other teachers would be like, oh, can you keep the noise down a bit? It's like, well, no, we can't. We're making music. Wonderful. Bring the noise. All children can do music. You haven't heard me play recorder. Oh, that's the only no we can't we're making music wonderful bring the noise all children can do music you haven't heard me play recorder oh okay that'll be all we need to know no one needs to hear that um and uh and then i also need to ask you about this i read that you recently turned

down at a local music festival because they said they already had a female saxophonist what was your response to that it was shock i think well think. Well, I'm part of something called Women in Jazz Media. So we're all about kind of, you know, women can do just as well. But it's a bit more of a struggle, perhaps in the world of, you know, music. So I was quite taken aback. I won't name in shame. But yeah, it was a festival I've played at before. I always go down an absolute storm. They said they wouldn't book me because they already had one of those. Yeah. And the stupid thing is, is that, you know, just because we're female sax players, we're not all the same. You know, we're all different. Are you? Well, we're going to hear that right now. We're going to hear you perform. I'm very excited about this. In fact, when I walked in, the studio manager said, you're going

to be dancing today, Anita. I'm very ready for a bit of a dance today. So this is from their third album. It's called Catching Moments. And the piece is called Bertie, Bertie, Bertie. It's about your rabbit. Kim Cipher and her band bringing the most joyful music to us on a Saturday afternoon. It was even better seeing her do it live. That's it from me. On Monday, we'll be discussing a topic that doesn't get talked about enough, uterine fibroids. Noola will also be joined by Indian film producer Kiran Rao, who'll be telling her all about India's entry to the Oscars.

Join Noola on Monday. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long

has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.