Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Ms Tina Knowles, Tennis at Queens, Dr Grace Spence Green, Bernardine Evaristo

Episode Date: June 7, 2025

Tina Knowles, the mother of icons Beyoncé Knowles-Carter, Solange Knowles and bonus daughter Kelly Rowland, has just published her memoir Matriarch. It tells the story of how a resilient little girl, born in difficult times, became a powerhouse, guiding her daughters to their potential. How she, the great-granddaughter of two enslaved women, went from what she describes as a little, two-bedroom “poor house” with seven people in Galveston, Texas, to being the head of one of the most successful and high-profile families in the world. Ms Tina joined Nuala McGovern in the Woman’s Hour studio.For the first time since 1973 women will walk out to compete at Queen's Club as the Queen's Tennis tournament gets underway. To mark this moment, the Lawn Tennis Association is launching a series of initiatives to support the health and wellbeing of British women's tennis players. Anita Rani spoke to the LTA's Chief Medical Officer Dr Guy Evans and former British Number One and Tournament Director of Queen's, Laura Robson.Dr Grace Spence Green’s spine was broken when a man fell on her in a shopping centre. At that time, Grace was part-way through her medical degree, and found herself going from being a trainee doctor learning about how to work with patients, to being a patient herself with serious injuries. Ten months after her injury, Grace continued her degree and later qualified as a doctor who is also a wheelchair user. Grace told Anita about her experiences, as described in her new book, To Exist As I Am.Bernardine Evaristo is the winner of The Women’s Prize Outstanding Contribution Award - a one-off literary honour to mark the 30th anniversary year of the Women’s Prize for Fiction. Bernardine joined Nuala to discuss her huge body of work and career highlights including winning the Booker Prize in 2019 for her novel Girl, Woman, Other, and her role as a champion for women and women of colour in the creative industries.Model Hailey Bieber has sold her make-up company Rhode in a deal worth up to $1 billion. She joins a list of other celebrities earning millions from their cosmetic brand. Nuala was joined by make-up artist to the stars Val Garland and Beauty Editor for the Telegraph, Sonia Haria, to discuss.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Rebecca Myatt

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome. Coming up, some highlights from the week just gone. Ms Tina Knowles, who's been a driving force in the success of her daughters, Beyonce and Solange on her new book, Matriarch. Supermodel Hailey Bieber has sold her makeup company in a deal worth up to one billion dollars. But just how involved are celebrities in the

creation of their own products? And do you need a recognisable name to make it big in this business now? The remarkable Grace Spence Green, whose life changed in a split second when a falling man landed on her from a height and broke her spine, leaving her paralysed from her chest down. She'll be telling me her story. And Booker Prize-winning author Bernardine Everisto, whose courage to take risks and offer readers a pathway into diverse and multifarious worlds over a 40-year career on receiving the Women's Prize Outstanding Contribution

Award. People weren't particularly interested in that aspect of my career. I remember somebody saying to me once, why are you behaving like a social worker? And I've never forgotten it. It was about 30 years ago. And they said, you should be focusing on your writing. And I said, well, I'm focusing on my writing. But at the same time, if I can create and co-found and initiate projects that bring along other writers, then I will do that. So let's get started. Now Tina Knowles, the mother of icons Beyonce Knowles-Carter, Solange Knowles and bonus daughter

Kelly Rowland, has just published her memoir, Matriarch. It's already reached number one on the New York Times bestseller list. It tells the story of how a resilient little girl born in difficult times became a powerhouse, guiding her daughters to their potential. And also how she, the great-granddaughter of enslaved women, went from what she describes as a little two-bedroom poorhouse with seven people in Galveston, Texas, to being the head of one of the most successful and high-profile families in the world.

Ms. Tina joined Nuala this week and she began by asking her, what does it mean to be a matriarch? To be a leader in your family, to be the person who everyone calls when there is a problem or when there is some great news. I'm the first one usually that they call. And just to help, you know, as a matriarch, you are kind of the fixer. And I think that my mother saw that in me very early because they have all these stories about me protecting, you know, the underdogs, even my older brothers, my nephew. And I think she thought that I could handle it. And she kind of groomed me a bit to be a matriarch.

Because what Miss Teane and I were speaking about just before we came on air is, you know, who is the person that becomes the matriarch? What qualities do they need? And when is that mantle passed down? But as you say, from little badass teeny B, as you were known, like even at five, six years of age, of which you go into great detail in the memoir, you were this feisty, resilient little girl. Yes.

Where did that come from? Well, I think it came from the fact that my parents were 44 when they had me, and they were tired. They had raised seven kids and six kids at that point, and I got to really speak freely. I got to ask why not or why. And I was just very outspoken. And I realized that it saved me because, you know, the nuns, I

went to this Catholic school where my parents, I found out later, bartered for me to go to. And I didn't understand why we were so poor, but I was at this private school. And the nuns, you know, felt like I didn't belong there. So I had to fight them. From a very early age of five, I became a warrior, and I would talk back and I wouldn't allow certain things in my psyche, and that is why I was able to make it through that. You made it from those first days, but I mean, they were harrowing experiences that you had at the School of Holy Rosary, that you describe a very restrictive and cruel

at times upbringing within that particular sphere. It didn't stop you, obviously, and perhaps gave you more ammunition to push back. But you are very much in contrast to your mother Agnes that you speak about. Who was fearful? Yes, she was fearful of everything. I mean, in the outside world, she had been through such trauma in her life. And of course, as a kid, I knew these things, but I didn't associate it with trauma. So I didn't understand why she was not this person who was, you know, fighting back. But I found out later in life that she was in her own way.

But it was very quiet. She was very soft spoken and very kind. So sometimes people kind of pushed her around. And so it made me angry as a little kid. I was like, I'm never going to be like that. So I always had my dukes up. You know, I was ready to fight. That's the picture I heard as I heard your voice telling these stories. And I really think that your book is the story of the experiences of the black girl and the black woman in America in recent history. Yes, I absolutely believe because I grew up with such racism and just restrictive ideas, you know, in society. And so I always felt like I had to fight back. And I'm still to this day,

my kids say to me all the time, mama put your dukes down. You know, you don't have to fight all the time, but I'm just always hyper aware of anything that's going on. Well, let's talk about this because let's talk about your foremothers. The line of female ancestors in your life. And I should tell our listeners that there's this beautiful mother tree that you have, which goes through your family. But your great, great grandmother, Rosalie, was enslaved. Your great grandmother, Celestine, also also who gave birth to 10 children with a

man who was an enslaver, and that included Odelia who gave birth to your mother Agnes. So this is very recent history and it makes your present seem all the more extraordinary. How did knowing those stories affect you growing up? When I think back on that, I just wonder if that did have something to do with the fact that I was always fighting and fighting to do better, fighting to protect my family. And I think it did.

It was subliminal, maybe. I didn't make the connection of my great-grandmother's until I was doing this book. And just how amazing that was for them to keep their families together, being enslaved. They kept their kids with them. Can you imagine what that took for them back in that time? And how that legacy subliminally was instilled in me to fight and to keep my family together, because that is the most important thing for me in life is to, you know, as long as I have my family, I feel like I could lose everything and I would be just fine. One of your very early stories that you tell was when you asked

your mother about your surname, and a lot of these stories take place under the pecan tree in the garden. So Beyonce, which of course we know as your daughter. But this was a surname often spelled differently for each of the seven children, including yourself. Tell us a little bit about that because it intersects with racism. Yes, it does. Well, the name is originally spelled B-O-Y-A-N-C-E. And when my parents came to Texas, they had the spelling somehow of B-E-Y-I-N-C-E. And then when we enrolled in school, whatever our birth certificate said, that is what you become, you know, in school. And I remember asking my mom, because my brother was teaching me how to write my name. And he said, Oh, no, your name is spelled differently. And I said, Why? And he said, I don't know. And so I asked my mom and she said that whatever your birth certificate said in the

hospital, that's what you went by. And I said, Well, why didn't you make them change it? And she said, well, I did try once. And the nurse told me, be happy't you make them change it? And she said, well, I did try once. And the nurse told me, be happy that you got a birth certificate. Because my other brothers and sisters, other than me and my youngest brother, they were all born in a colored hospital. And so I'm sure that they had no rights.

Like, we didn't care enough to correct it. So the names are all very different, which was embarrassing for us as kids. You know, my brother's name was B-E-Y-I-N-C-E. One brother's name was B-U-Y-I-N-C-E and my name was B-E-Y-O-N-C-E, which is where Beyonce's name came from. And where, if you'd like to share with our listeners, where you got the inspiration to call your daughter that name? Well, because there were no boys. We have one boy to carry on the name, and thank God he's had a son named Avenue Beyonce, which is so cool. But we didn't have any boys, and so I thought it was a

gift to my father to name her Beyonce, and I thought he would be happy, but of course he said, that baby's going to be mad at you because you named him a last name. And I'm like, nobody knows it's the last name but us. Could you imagine what that word then became? Oh my God. And the fact that my dad did not get to see that and my mom didn't get to see their name just everywhere, even though, you know, spelling is different. Yeah. Who would have thought that that name would be, you know, a household word now? But you came from those modest upbringings.

Yes. To now being this powerhouse for once of another term. There's so many ways I could describe it. And we're very familiar with your daughters, but you were forging that path anyway. You were a hairstylist, you opened your own salon called Headliners. How appropriate! Oh yeah, I mean and I didn't even know that. I thought about that because I wanted it to be a place that everyone was a star. So it kind of had that showbiz feel, but that was not the big intention.

It was just for everyone to be important. Let's talk about your daughters for a moment. And I know you very much want to give equal billing to your daughters as well, of course. I saw Solange was more focused on school. She kind of wanted this structured life. Beyonce instead was more of a free spirit and didn't mind what time the meal times came out, for example.

Tell us a little bit about Solange. Well, you kind of got told off for not for not sending them to school or letting them stay off school and having a beach day one day. Yes. And she said, what kind of parent doesn't want their kids to go to school? What kind of parent doesn't want their kids to make A's and B's? And I'm like, I would love for you to make A's and B's, but if you don't, I'm okay with it. And so she just needed more structure. Kids are very different. And you have to respect the differences and try to encourage them, you know, and treat them as individuals.

I might surprise people, anyone who has watched Beyonce on stage, they might be surprised with her as a little girl. She was a shy girl. Yes, she was. And, you know, was trying to find her voice perhaps in school, but with great difficulty. But I think she was about seven when she was, and I'll put it in inverted commas, discovered. Yes, because her dance teacher entered her into a contest with all the parochial schools. Because ironically, she went to a Catholic school as well.

But she won this contest and we were like blown away because we knew she could sing, because that's all she did was sing and write little songs when she was like six. But I was just put her in dance class because she was shy. But I have to say that it's a complicated thing because she was shy around strangers because she always checked them out and studied people. But once she got comfortable with you, she was so outgoing and she was so outgoing with us. But then she would go to school or go to somewhere else and be, you know, kind of shy and laid back. And she's still pretty much that way today.

I don't know if I would call it shy, but she is not the belle of the ball. She's reserved. She's very reserved and she checks people out. She's still checking them out, just fill them out before she is comfortable. Yeah, yeah. It must be quite something though to see. I've been lucky enough to go to some Beyonce's shows and I have another one coming up Thursday week. Very exciting here in London.

I don't even know how to put it into words if you haven't been there. It's like an out of body experience, the most expansive, alternate universe experience. That little shy seven year old and that woman, can you, I don't know, understand that the two are the same person? Yes, I think that is why on the stage it's such a dynamic show because I think that she gets out of herself and she becomes this other being. And that is why I think she can be this artist because on stage it's almost like a

whole nother persona and then she comes off stage and she's the most normal person you ever see. And that's not always the case with people. Ms Tina Knowles and what a brilliant listen that was and her memoir Matriarch is out now. Now the tennis season is well and truly underway and with it next week sees the return of a new fixture in the women's schedule. For the first time since 1973 women will walk out to compete at the Queen's Club as the Queen's tennis tournament gets underway. For over 50 years only men have taken part in the fixture. To mark this moment the Lawn Tennis Association or LTA has launched a series of initiatives to support the health and wellbeing of British women's

tennis players. In a moment, we can exclusively bring you some of those details with the LTA's Chief Medical Officer, Dr Guy Evans. But first, I was joined by the former British No. 1 and Tournament Director of Queens, Laura Robson. I asked her how it feels to be welcoming women's professional tennis back to Queens for the first time in more than 50 years. It's wild that it's 52 years since they last played here, but the excitement from the players' side of things has been amazing. Over the last few days to see them all come on site for the first time, they would have watched it on TV over the years as a men's band, but to actually experience

the sort of tradition and the history of the club in person has been really cool and yeah we've spent the last few days giving everyone tours because the club is a bit of a maze and so everyone's figuring their way around but yeah I think there's just a general excitement to get on the courts here to start matches and you know in terms of ticket sales as well we're doing remarkably well for a year one event. I think last I checked it was over 50,000 tickets sold for the WTA week which is amazing. But yeah I think there's just a general excitement to get on the courts here to start matches. We just hope it's a massive success and we hope

it doesn't rain. I'm sure it will be. Why were women excluded for so long? It wasn't that they were excluded, it was that the tournament moved. So initially, you know, it was a combined event, then the women's event got moved down to Eastbourne due to lack of space. So even though now it's moved back to Queens, it's still, we don't logistically have enough space to hold both events at the same time. So it's moved back to Queens, it's still, we don't logistically have enough space to hold both events at the same time, so it's the women's first and then the men will follow the week after, and that is because of a lack of courts, a lack of, you know, facilities basically. We can't really build out, you know, any more than we already have,, yeah, we are absolutely at capacity, but the fact that we can make it almost a combined event

and make it overlap for a few days, yeah, it's almost like a two-week tennis festival in a way now. And what about the prize money? Wimbledon has had equal prize money for men and women since 2007, but that won't be the case at Queen's, will it? The men's tournament will have a substantially higher pot

of 2.1 million compared to the 900,000 available to women. Yes, so the prize money this year has been a massive increase on the WTA side. That was something that the LTA announced yesterday, where by 2029, they're going to have equal prize money, but it doesn't happen overnight. And, you know, there is a big step year on year to try and get it as close as possible, which we have done this year.

There's been a massive increase and across the year, it's now the second highest paid WTA 500 level tournament. And I think what people don't necessarily realize is that outside of those foreground slams, the WTA and ATP set the prize money markers themselves. So it's not something that's decided tournament by tournament. And of course, we can do all that we can, you know, in the meantime, to try and close that gap. But it, you know, from the LTA's

perspective, we're ahead of where the WTA is year round. So yeah, it's, it's a step in the right direction, but in order to close that gap eventually, we need to run a successful event. We need to, you know, sell as many tickets as possible and make sure that we do everything we can over the next few years to, you know, create a legacy in its own way for the WTA weekend. Absolutely. You know, it's one of many tournaments female tennis players can compete in now.

It's a crowded schedule with lots of travel and players are expected to be their best during every game. This is one of the reasons the LTA has today launched a series of initiatives aimed at improving the health and wellbeing of British female tennis players. As I mentioned, we're also joined by Dr Guy Evans, who is the organisation's Chief Medical Officer. Morning Guy, welcome. Good morning, Nita. Give us an overview of what you've launched today. Yeah, so we've been working for about two years following player feedback on the support that we provide to our female players. And broadly, I kind of divide this into two parts. One is the very player-facing part, and we've introduced regular screening of our players,

so at least annually, where we sit down with each individual player, and we look for issues that are related to female athlete health problems, women's health issues. And when we identify an issue, even our players are kind of transient creatures flying in and out at any given time, you know, all the way around the world. We have set up bespoke quick referral pathways to specialists

who can see, diagnose, offer scans on the same day and potentially even treatment so that our players are not disadvantaged given their occupation as a tennis player. The second part of it is focused more on education and a lot of our female players wanted to know more about areas related to female athlete health, such as do periods affect performance? What's the best contraceptive choice for a female player to go on? What is the implication on fertility for career and elite sports? And so we've developed a podcast series that players can listen to. And we chose podcasts because again, they're on the road so often that they can just, you know, link up to the podcast when they're

in the airport lounge or waiting to see their warmup and get the information they want. We've also done a couple of other bespoke initiatives. So for example, we offer sports bra fitting service which sounds a bit odd, but it's important to have a little bit of sports bra. How important is that? Why is that so important? Yeah, hugely important because we've partnered with the University of Portsmouth

and it's fascinating talking to their research team about breast health in sport. And they told me a stat the other day that in a poor supporting bra, a breast will move at a poor supporting bra when you run, the stride length will shorten by four centimeters. So it just shows you the biomechanical change that having a poor sporting bra can have. And if you're running a marathon, that's a mile extra that, you know, if you add up all the four centimetres. So having a really good supporting bra is both good for breast health, but it's good

for performance as well. So you're doing some really important work in looking into the sort of unique needs of female athletes. And so let's, we've talked about this, the importance of a well supporting sports bra, but you mentioned the menstrual cycle. How, what advice or how might a female athlete adapt their schedule around that? Yeah, that's a good question. And the answer is it needs to be really bespoke. There's a lot out there at the moment about something called phase-based training. Should we be changing the schedule and the training according to where a player is in their cycle? And I don't think we have the evidence to say that we should be at the moment,

to be honest. I don't think that's backed up by evidence. So what we encourage is firstly, a period of tracking, using a tracking device, maybe two or three months, and encouraging our players to note down symptoms and feelings and the way the training goes over that period of time, and look for any links throughout the cycle. And generally, they fall into two categories. Some players don't notice any real link and they're very happy and I don't nag them and I say, look, if you're happy and with your cycle, it's not impacting things and you've got a

plan in place, I'm happy. Others will identify cyclical issues that cause either an issue with the way they feel or their performance. And that's when we set about trying to improve things for them. A good example of this is, over in the year, a player identifying that at the same time every month,

they felt their balance was disturbed compared to normal, and they noticed an increase in their double fault rate. And so they didn't initially think that this was a medical problem, and it isn't really in many ways, but it was an interesting observation that was flagged and we worked with her team to improve that scenario for her. So we're still sort of gathering information but also finally people are actually paying attention to what the requirements of female athletes are. Laura, none of this was around I suppose when you were playing. How might this knowledge and support have impacted you do you think? What do you think about all of this?

I think it's absolutely great and a step in the right direction. Something that feels like it's been a long time coming. The fact that we haven't had access to this kind of research and developments in this area is going to be massively important for people as they plan their year out, as they plan their schedule. And we talk about tennis as being pretty non-stop, but you need to be able to fit in your downtime, your training weeks,

make sure you're peaking for the right tournaments. And all of this goes hand in hand with that. So yeah, it seemed like, you know, women's football was sort of the first push in this area to try and figure out what's going on in your body. And now tennis is trying to catch up a little bit. But yeah, it's all really good stuff and I know the players have really bought into it. But yeah, I can just see it helping massively as the year goes on.

Laura Robson and Dr Guy Evans and you can follow coverage of Queens across BBC Sport. Now Grace Spence Green is a junior doctor about to start paediatrics training and a disability activist. In 2018, when she was aged 22 and partway through her medical degree, she was walking through a shopping centre in East London when she was hit by a falling man. He suffered a broken leg. Grace's spine was broken. She underwent major surgery and rehabilitation and has since spoken about her experiences the day of the injury and recovery, navigating being a medical student and becoming a trainee doctor as a wheelchair user. Well, Grace joined me this week and I started by asking her why she wanted to write about her experience in

her memoir, To Exist As I Am. When I was first in hospital, I think around day three, I was still in HDU, as soon as I could I opened my laptop and I just started to write, just on a Word document. I think around day three, I was still in HDU. As soon as I could, I opened my laptop and I just started to write, just on a Word document. I think it was a way to anchor myself to this very surreal reality I now found myself in. And since then, I've been chronicling my life ever since. And I started to feel like I had something important to say

and something that I hadn't really found when I was newly injured and looking for. The day when everything changed for you was so random, it was so normal, but set off a chain of events which you very eloquently describe in your book. The first thing you mentioned after it happened was hearing someone screaming and then realising it was you. What was it like to look back on that? It's funny talking about it now because it feels like I'm talking about a story of a different girl. I feel so so far removed from it but I remember at the time that the strangest thing for me was waking up again that day when I hadn't been asleep and then exactly hearing the scream before realising it was from me and then understanding quite early on that I had been hit and that

there were a crowd of people around a figure and they were telling him that he had fallen and I found out later that he had jumped. Yeah and you'd broken their fall, saving their life, but breaking your spine. You describe it as a bloodless injury. What do you mean by that? I think that really fueled my denial at the start when I was first in acute care because I could look down and I just looked the same. Apart from this tiny bruise on my big toe, everything that had happened to me was inside. And I remember the junior doctor taking a

picture of my staples. I had 25 staples all the way down my back. And I remember looking at the photo and I just couldn't believe that was my back because I couldn't see it. How do you look back at that day now? How do you process it now having written the book and where you are now in life when you look back on that day? I think when I look at that day and that person I feel really sorry for that girl that I was then because I know she had so much hardship to come, so many difficult experiences as a patient and it makes me feel quite sad for her but I think of how I am now and I look forward to the different person I'll be in five years so it's it's it feels quite hopeful to me. How do you feel about the man who

fell on you? I've read that you don't resent him. How have you managed that? No, I never had any anger towards him and maybe because it was such a random event that helped. I wasn't targeted as such. I think what was overwhelming to me at the start was everyone else's anger. I had healthcare workers around me tell me they would have wanted to kill him, they were so angry. And that was really difficult at the start when I was still trying to understand my own feelings. And I almost was waiting for this anger to come. I felt like there must be something wrong with me. But

even when I saw his picture in the newspaper and found out more details, it just wasn't there. And I think actually what I realised was the anger that I wanted to experience was anger at inaccessibility. It was anger about the way society portrays disabled people and treats disabled people and that felt like a much more productive anger that I could do something with See when I've read that about you and your response to it first I thought yeah how what's a brilliant way of telling us that how quick people are to project what their Interpretation of something is oh, I would be angry or why are you not feeling this and how then you kind of process that and

dealt with it kind of shows that's where I found like how remarkable you are. The way you processed what was happening and where you've channeled that anger and I sort of wonder where that came from, just your ability to kind of think things through in that way. I think I'm a very pragmatic person so early on it was really helpful for me to understand that he likely would have died if I hadn't broken his fall. So I could understand that, well, I saved someone's life. I wouldn't take that back. So I can go ahead with this injury knowing I wouldn't take it back. And that was a really helpful platform to start from, I think. And then later on on I actually now

think I wouldn't take this injury back because of all it's given me in terms of community, in terms of my confidence, in terms of my power but I'm so grateful for kind of friends and family around me that let me have the space to think all these concepts through without projecting their own own views. You were four years into your medical degree, you decided to carry on just ten months after your accident, was that an easy decision? To me it was really the thing that I was holding on to after my injury because I felt like suddenly, I think at 22 you don't really know who you are yet anyway, but I was feeling like I was starting to get an understanding of myself and then suddenly the tracks changed and everything

just fell away and I had no idea who I would now be. But what I could hold on to was my identity as a medical student. So I was so eager to go back as soon as I could. And at this point you hadn't ever seen someone with a visible disability as a healthcare provider so you actually sought out a doctor who used a wheelchair and by chance you also had a therapist who had a disability. How helpful was that visibility for you and to speak to them? That changed everything for me. I remember when I was still in HDU my medical school professors came and reassured me that they would support me back.

But I didn't believe them. It was two able-bodied men telling me this when I'd never seen that before. And it took finding this Dr. Lizzie in Scotland, and it just took an hour phone call for me to realize that it might be really difficult, but someone else in the country is doing it. So it's possible. So that helped you to see that open your eyes but also I suppose you talk a lot about how people react to you being in a wheelchair and some of the things quite shocking and really awful

things that people say to you. Yeah absolutely and I think that was really difficult once I was discharged because rehab was difficult in itself but you're sort of safe in this in this bubble and as soon as I was discharged because rehab was difficult in itself, but you're sort of safe in this in this bubble. And as soon as I was discharged, I felt like every day was an onslaught of microaggressions. So it was constantly it was strangers asking me what's wrong with me. It was people telling me how sorry they felt for me. It was people telling me I was inspirational for being in the supermarket, it was constantly feeling infantilised, so people talking to my standing partner or friend, whoever I was with. And that was the most difficult to navigate actually.

You also said, I think this is really interesting, that you were always someone who never made a fuss or want to be confrontational and just got on with things but that's changed. How has that changed? Yeah I think and I think this is true particularly with young women is I was a people pleaser to the point it was almost pathological. I wouldn't, I would always put other people's comfort above my own and I think I started just doing that with my injury. I felt like I had to tell people what happened because they had asked and I didn't want to make them feel uncomfortable. Or I had to say thank you for things I didn't feel grateful for. And it got to the point about a

year in that I just thought, I actually can't live like this. It's not sustainable for me, for my self-worth, for my self-confidence and that change was so powerful for me and creating boundaries, really clear boundaries in the way I want to be treated and the way I don't want to be treated was just the kind of huge turning point for me. You're still with the same boyfriend Nathan, in fact you're about to get married next month. Yes.

Congratulations. Thank you so much. And there's been many assumptions made about you in a relationship as well hasn't there? Yeah and I found that really interesting. I explore it a lot in the book about care and me being a caregiver at work but also a care receiver and how those things work together and I think especially in a romantic relationship where Nathan does care for me but I think people assume that I don't reciprocate that care in other ways that I can in emotional or financial or anything like that so to me it really made me consider the importance of interdependence rather than independence. I am much more willing

to accept care from anyone from friends and family and I think exploring that relationship with care while being a doctor has been really interesting for me. And you are a doctor very good congratulations going to start training in pediatrics. Are you prepared for all the questions that children will have? This is what I love about children actually is that they might ask more questions but as soon as you explain to them why I would use a wheelchair because my legs don't work very well or I find this much easier to move around in, they just accept that as fact. There's no judgement, there's no kind of pre-conditioned stigma or awkwardness. It's just okay move on

How does that compare to the adults who ask? It's just so refreshing to me and I I give I give patients adult patients a lot of grace when you know They might say something inappropriate because they might be going through their own Huge physical changes and I know at that time I was patient I had lots of confusing ideas that you know that I was trying to grasp hold of. But it's so refreshing to work with children, yes. An incredibly thought provoking and inspiring conversation between myself and Grace Spence Green and her memoir To Exist As I Am is out now.

Still to come on the programme, supermodel Hailey Bieber has sold her make-up company in a deal worth up to $1 billion. But do you need a recognisable name to make it big in this business now? And remember you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. Just subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Now this week, the Women's Prize Trust awarded the Outstanding Contribution Award a one-off literary honour to mark the 30th anniversary year of the Women's Prize for Fiction. The winner, who receives £100,000 prize money along with a special sculpture, was Bernadine

Evaristo, a prolific writer who won the Booker Prize in 2019 for her novel Girl, Woman, Other. Her other novels include Blonde Roots and Mr. Lover Man, a brilliant adaptation screened on BBC One last year. And her non-fiction includes her memoir, Manifesto, on Never Giving Up. She is Professor of Creative Writing at Brunel University London and also President of the Royal Society of Literature. Well, she joined Nuala this week to talk about what it means to win this award. Well, you know, it's an amazing prize because until they announced it about four weeks ago, nobody knew it even existed, right? And it's so interesting that they honour not just my

creativity but also my advocacy and activism. And I think I'll take any prize at any age, to be honest. But this is really something because you talk about all those achievements, whether it's on the page or not. Yes. Well, I think advocacy of underrepresented groups, in particular women, people of color, working class people, queer people, etc. has been something that I've been involved in since the early 80s when I co-founded Theatre of Black Women, you know, with Paulette Randall and Patricia Saint-Hilaire, and it's been part of my life ever since. And, you know, to be honest, for

much of that period there wasn't a lot of interest in that kind of advocacy, and that interest only really started to come about after the Me Too and Black Lives Matter movements and suddenly people were kind of very proudly demonstrating their activism. So I started to talk more about the projects I'd done because before then I felt even though they were very successful I felt that people weren't particularly interested in that aspect of my career. I remember somebody saying to me once why are you behaving like a social worker? And I've never forgotten it was about 30 years ago. And I, they, they said you should be focusing on your writing. And I said,

well, I'm focusing on my writing, you know, you know, my creative writing is my number one priority, but at the same time in tandem with that, if I can create and co-found and initiate projects that bring along other writers and people in the arts, then I will do that. And it's actually a real joy to do that. So many hats that you are wearing, I should also let people know you are the second woman and first writer of colour to hold the position of president of the Royal Society of Literature as well. And I was

struck with, from Manifesto that that I had mentioned that you wrote, my creativity can be traced back to my heritage, to the skin colour that defined how I was perceived, but like my ancestors, I wouldn't accept defeat. And went on to say there was nothing in the British society of my suburban childhood that endorsed the concept of blackness as something positive. And as I was reading through some of your achievements this morning, I was thinking, what is it like for you now to process the positive contribution that you have made to black British people?

I feel incredibly validated and also incredibly grateful that I have, you know, been honoured in this way. But I also think it's really important for people to remember what it used to be like in this country. Well, let's talk about that because and let's talk a little bit about your upbringing as well. Your father was Nigerian and your mother was a white woman who was English. They came together much to what would we even call it? I can't Opposition, like vehement opposition on your mother's side in particular. Yeah, so my parents married in the 50s. My father had come from Nigeria in 1949. My mother was a white English woman of Irish and

German heritage and my mother's side of the family really opposed the marriage in the 1950s. And so my mother was, you know, she was a good Catholic and she loved my father. She married him in spite of the opposition and then went on to have eight children and ten years of which I'm one of the middle children. And but that was the narrative of my childhood in a sense that my parents coming together was something that had been so disapproved of. Some members of my mother's family never spoke to her ever again. And then my parents became political activists. My father was a Labour councillor in the borough of Greenwich. He was known as Danny Evaristo and he was a shop steward in the factory where he worked. My mother was the trade union rep in the school where she taught. So they had come together in the face of opposition, but then they became people who fought for the rights of others. And Woolwich, where I grew up at the time, was a very white

working class town. So my father was actually advocating and supporting as a counsellor white working class people in our environment. Which is quite something considering how much people tried to suppress him when he arrived in society. Where do you think he got that from? I don't know. It was 1920s Nigeria he was born in. He was born in, yes he was, and I never met his father died before he was born. His mother died before we could meet her in the 1960s and I've never really understood where that fighting spirit came from, except he was an amateur boxer back home

in Nigeria. But in terms of sort of that political activism, I don't really understand the roots. But I think he was somebody who believed in contributing to society beyond his own family. And I think I grew up with that. And I think my activism probably stems from growing up in a household where my parents fought for the rights of others, as well as obviously

nurtured their own children. And let's talk also about people will know you for so many different things. We've talked about some of the hats that you were there, but you are writing when we talk about on the page fiction, short fiction, poetry, essays, literary criticism, radio and theatre drama. Do you feel a need to immerse yourself in all those different genres? It's just been part of my process. You know, I started writing for theatre at drama school.

I went to the Rose Brouford College of Theatre and Performance, as it called now. I trained to be an actor but I was also trained to create theatre and my theatre came out as poetry and then I left theatre behind for a long time and just focused on writing poetry and then I started to write verse novels and then just as a writer you are presented with opportunities to write essays, for example, or to, you know, maybe I'm commissioned to write something for the radio. And it's a very long career of over 40 years, where I've sort of, you know, engaged with lots of different literary forms. But essentially, I see myself as a writer of books.

I've now written 10 books since 1994, and that's how I see my future developing but these very interesting commissions come my way and it's very hard to say no. There's a great listen on Desert Island Discs of Bernardine's life and choices of music. You said there that through writing your novel Lara that you reconciled your identity. Tell me more about that. Yeah, because I grew up in, people who know Woolwich today, which believe it or not has a creative quarter,

but when I grew up, it was a white squaddy working class town. And we were a mixed family, a large family, living in a very rundown house, in an area where we stood out. And there was really very little around me to validate my sense as a person of colour or a biracial person.

I did not know anything about my father's heritage because he didn't pass anything on to us much at least. So it was only when I went to Rosebrewford College that I met other black women other than my sisters and became much more politicized and sort of racially aware. And then had some struggles in my late teens, early twenties because I didn't really feel that I belonged in the sort of predominantly Caribbean community at that time, which was the case then. I think now sort of black Britain is probably more African based and then also experiencing racism. And it was only when I wrote Lara, which I wrote in the 90s and my 30s, where I explored the different strands of my

family ancestry and also my own childhood, which, you know, growing up mixed race in the 60s and 70s, but then also my mother's Irish and German and British heritage and my father's Nigerian and Brazilian, that I then through the act of writing found peace with myself. Because I'm wondering, because reading in Manifesto as well, you said that you've never had therapy as you like to live with your demons and not that you're living with unresolved trauma, but that you've become adept at self-interrogation and haven't been driven to seek help, that you work things out for yourself, which I think that's what that sounds like. I guess so, you know. I think therapy is obviously very important for a lot of people, but I feel

that whatever issues I've got, I embody them and they make me the creative person that I am. So I'm not seeking to resolve anything beyond what I can manage myself. I love that, that it's to live with it and explore it and feel it. Yeah, I probably could have, you know, earlier, I could have done with some help, I'm sure, you know, but I, yeah, I think all the contradictions and the complexities are what I put into my writing, you know. Let's come back to the outstandingstanding Contribution Award. What does this mean to you? You know, because some of these projects that I've developed over the years, the Complete Works Mentoring Scheme, which I have to say was directed by Natalie Titler for 10 years. 30 poets were mentored over a period of

10 years for a year or two each and they're all poets of colour and they're now all out there in the world publishing books winning most of the top prizes in the country. What a legacy. I'm not saying that we take credit for their success but this was a scheme that was definitely an important part of their development as writers. But these schemes were developed before anybody thought they were important to do or anybody was really acknowledging that there was an issue with the fact that Poets of Colour were not getting published.

And then I think back to the Brunel International African Poetry Prize which ran for 10 years and is now has a new life in America, run by the African Poetry Book Fund. Nobody seemed to think there was an issue that generally speaking African poets were not getting published and so this price was to celebrate and develop African poets on a global scale and and that's what it's done you know along obviously with lots of other schemes but when I think back to you know the 90s when I started doing this sort of work and the and the noughties and then the 10s and the sort of hours put in where you're just kind of beavering away and most of it completely voluntary unpaid

and then for that to be acknowledged all these years later with somebody saying look we've noticed what you've done and we just want to acknowledge that but also to inspire other people to go beyond what they're doing with their careers but to think about how they can lift others up. The incredible Bernardine Evaristo speaking to Noola there. Now after only three years on the market, supermodel Hailey Bieber has sold her makeup company Rode to Elf Beauty in a deal up to one billion dollars. The 28-year-old now joins a list of other celebs including Rihanna, Selena Gomez and Kylie Jenner who've all made millions from their cosmetics companies.

But just how involved are they in the creation of their products? Are they worth the hype? And do you ultimately need a recognisable name to make it big in this business? Well, Nuala was joined by beauty director for the Telegraph, Sonia Harrier, and by celebrity makeup artist and judge on the BBC series Glow Up Val Garland and she started by asking Sonia to tell us more about the deal. So it's a phenomenal achievement after only three years in the market. Hayley is still staying on as chief creative officer for the brand and head of innovation because that's really

what people want I think but the the deal with elf elf has this amazing kind of power to really scale up a brand so while road is quite a small brand it only has 10 products it's well it's yeah a very streamlined makeup company the real potential I think that elf have identified is the fact that you you know, Hayley's captured this real essence of where makeup is moving at the moment, this kind of skincare beauty hybrid and they've got the opportunity now to really get it out to, into big retailers globally.

So ELF currently themselves are in, you know, boots in lots of retailers across the country. And Rode is launching into Sephora later this year. So it's much more accessible and they've got the potential to really grow that offering from 10 to dozens and dozens. And I suppose Hayley, she's had her TikToks and Instagram of her doing her makeup, so kind of had the run-up shall we say to that. Vivald, what do you think about this? Do you have to have a famous face or famous person at the head of a beauty brand to be a success these days? Well obviously it helps but in my opinion our audience today are so far advanced as consumers. We want products that we know will work and give us the bang for our buck. So you can put a celebrity at the top of a brand, but the product's got to work.

Because there's the various celebrities that I'm talking about here, ones that were known for whatever it might be as a model or a reality star, etc. Then there's the celebrity makeup artists who I'm speaking to right now, for example. And do celebrity makeup artists reach for the celebrity named product in their makeup bag? I think yes. If the product is good enough, everybody, well, I think mostly everybody has got some

Charlotte Tilbury in their bag. They might have a Lisa Eldridge product, a lipstick perhaps. You know, you're probably going to have Sienna Gomez's Rare Beauty. I mean, there are some cult products on the market that everybody's reaching for now, and that's because they work. But I think with the numbers, there's not Selena Gomez, but the others, they wear makeup artists first. And I wonder, does any makeup artist like Charlotte Tilbury,

just to, for example, to name one, feel that pop stars, models, etc. are elbowing in on their territory? It's too late for that. It's too late for that. You know, that was kind of like 20 years ago. You know, if you are, if you have a great product now, you can be a success. Everyone's a makeup artist, you know, if you are, if you have a great product now, you can be a success. Everyone's a makeup artist, you know, blame YouTube when people started doing makeup in their bedrooms, like, you know, you have young TikTokers who have perhaps never left their bedroom. They are famous and they have, you know, famous brands. But Sonia, who do you think, for example, the likes of Haley's or others, who are they trying to reach? Is it that younger demographic?

I certainly think for Haley's key audience, it's that younger girl who's not really... What age are we talking? I'd say Gen Alpha, Gen Z. So girls under the age of 30. It's, you know, it's makeup for everyone but I think the people that she really appeals to are into that sort of clean girl aesthetic. Which is? Which is really skincare focused. They want their skin to look super glazed and hydrated. They want just little touches of makeup. It's the girl that has just been to reform her pilates and she comes out with her, you know, green juice looking really

fresh and that's the aesthetic I think that Rode is so different to the makeup artist and the celebrity brands from 10 years ago, which was so focused on these great, enormous eyeshadow palettes that you sort of needed a science degree to work out how to use and the real kind of makeup artist products that sometimes are really difficult for consumers to understand how to use. And think where Rode really sort of has it's captured that real ease of makeup. It's not the most long lasting, it's you know it's not the most inventive when it comes to the product offering but I think that's not the point. It's more selling a look and a lifestyle.

A lifestyle. How involved do we know are celebrities like Kylie Jenner, Selena Gomez, Rihanna or Hailey in their brands? I think it definitely varies. I think where the celebrity really sort of captures at the beginning is the need and well, I mean, there's never really a need for any more makeup but they capture what their audience wants. So they really have a real understanding of what products do their followers really want to capture. But whether or not three years or five years down the line they're still part of that innovation. I know with Hayley's brand in particular she's now going to be in charge of the innovation. So I like to think that she's probably still very going to be very involved. It's amazing how many fingers people can have

in so many pies shall we say with the merchandising side of it as well as everything else. But Val you know it is interesting that point that Sonia brings up who they are targeting it towards. I mean, do you see these celebrity brands targeting ever towards the older woman? I think the older woman is a given anyway. Really? Yeah, I do. I think explain that to me a little bit. A more mature woman perhaps has a better

paycheck So, you know she can she they then they can have access to the product. So Yeah, it's all about hype, you know, and I but it's been all is it all about hype or do you think I mean I can't believe the revolution that I've seen in the makeup world since I was a teenager, for example, and I'm in my 50s now. I feel you almost can't escape it now, even if you want it to. Now, maybe that's the way I'm being marketed to. But it's it is all in the marketing.

And today, more than ever, products, products in the drugstore And today more than ever, products in the drugstore are so, so good that they are accessible to anyone. And if you look back in history, whatever was happening for the youth culture, that was what took off. And it's no different today with kind of like Instagram and TikTok. You know, if your product goes viral on TikTok, you're a winner. Val Garland and Sonia Harrier there. That's it from me on Monday. Nuala will be talking to Hollywood royalty actor, Julianne Moore, about her latest film, a thriller called Echo Valley.

Make sure you don't miss it. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.