Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: National Care Service, Miranda Hart on walking, Parenting adult children, Beth Moran on fostering

Episode Date: January 4, 2025

The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Wes Streeting, has proposed "a new National Care Service", as part of the government's plan to shake-up adult social care with increased funding and an independent commission headed by crossbench peer Baroness Louise Casey. As adult social care is a predominantly female work force - and women make up the majority of people carrying out unpaid caring responsibilities - what impact could these changes have? Kylie Pentelow was joined by Melanie Williams, President of the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services and Helen Walker, Chief Executive of Carers UK.On New Year’s Day, Nuala McGovern explored all things women and walking in this special programme. She was joined by the comedian and author Miranda Hart to discuss how her battle with chronic illness gave her a new appreciation for getting outdoors and walking, following 10 years out of the spotlight with chronic fatigue.Many people will have visited or been visited by their adult children over the holidays. Being a parent to adult children, as well as being the adult child, can be complicated. What are the pitfalls? How can we ensure that relationship stays strong? Clare McDonnell was joined by psychotherapist Dr Julia Samuel and actor Helen Lederer to discuss.Four women from Pembrokeshire in Wales are about to set off on an Atlantic rowing challenge that’s been three years in the planning. They’re set to break two world records along the way. 32-year-old Sophie Pierce will be the first person with cystic fibrosis to row any ocean and 70-year-old Janine Williams will be the oldest woman to complete this challenge. She’s due to set a Guinness World Record. Along with Miyah and Polly, the women will spend 60 days together in a 10-metre-long ocean rowing boat to cross 3,200 miles unaided from Lanzarote to Antigua. Sophie and Janine spoke to Kylie on the day before they left for Lanzarote.What’s it like fostering in your forties? Author Beth Moran had three children in her twenties but decided to take up fostering once they flew the nest. Her new novel It Had To Be You is inspired by her experiences of fostering 13 children in five years and she joined Clare to discuss the challenges her family faced.A new Dolly Parton musical Here You Come Again is packed with the biggest and most rhinestoned hits from the country legend, and is currently playing at the Riverside Studios in London before it heads on tour across the UK next month. Actress Tricia Paoluccio joined Clare to discuss what it’s like becoming Dolly in the show – and gave a live performance in the studio.Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Louise Corley

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Hello, this is Kylie Pentelow, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Kylie Pentelow and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Kylie Pentelow. On today's programme, actor, comedian and author Miranda Hart on the restorative powers of walking and the outdoors. Plus, how to parent your children when they're adults. They've already moved on to a life independent from you. The question is, have you? We'll talk through that tricky shift from being the main event to a supporting actor in their lives with psychotherapist Dr Julia Samuel and actor Helen Lederer. Also,

the women hoping to break two records rowing across the Atlantic. One will be the oldest, the other, the first person with cystic fibrosis to row any ocean. We'll find out how tough the challenge will be and those all-important questions about how to take discreet comfort breaks on a 10-metre rowing boat. And if that's not enough, we've got the music of Dolly Parton, the subject of a new musical with its star Trishaelluccio as Dolly. All that to come, but first, you'll have likely heard yesterday about the government's plan to shake up adult social care. The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Wes Streeting, has promised a new national care service with increased funding and an independent commission

headed up by crossbench peer Baroness Louise Casey. Adult social care is a predominantly female workforce. Women make up more than 80% of staff working in this sector. They also make up the majority of people carrying out unpaid caring responsibilities. 10% of women and girls in England and Wales provide unpaid care. That's nearly 3 million in total. So what impact could these changes have on them and the many people who rely on adult social care,

either themselves or for a relative? Well, to discuss this, I was joined by Melanie Williams, Director of Adult Social Care in Nottinghamshire and also President of the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services, and Helen Walker, Chief Executive of Carers UK, a national charity supporting unpaid carers. And I began by asking Melanie, what was her reaction to this news? You're quite right to note that this is a particular issue for us women.

So my immediate reaction is the time scale so um secretary of state did call me yesterday and i was really pleased to hear him give commitment to interim report findings in a year but for me it's what is the scope of those findings because quite honestly we were promised a 10-year plan to run alongside in parallel it's really important it's in parallel to the NHS plan. But that work has already started, so the NHS is really gaining momentum about the changes they want to achieve. So I'm really interested to know, is the commission a part of that plan

or is the commission the plan and we'll have to wait for three years for the plan and then ultimately some people may not experience some change to the quality of their life for 14 years. So that's my immediate reaction. Well, Struising has said that public services are on their knees. He's acknowledged that. He said that so much more needs to be done, but that the process would take time. So do you acknowledge that this kind of long-term plan needs to be put in place?

That time needs to be taken to get a system that actually lasts? I think there are a number of elements to reform that we can get on with without needing that long-term plan so i'm sure helen will touch on this but a carer strategy across government carer strategy that we heard about at the labour party conference be one of those areas of reform and tackling unpaid care we can do much about our workforce strategy So you mentioned wanting to hear from care workers. There's a lot we can do and the sector united actually in the summer to develop a draft workforce strategy to talk about the things that don't require investment, but the areas that require some investment that could really change the experience of the care workers, how we support them, how we just support development and how we sustain the recruitment and retention of this important workforce and then not least some of the models of social care support there's lots of evidence

out there from people with lived experience about what can make a difference their lives now but certainly things like paying for care they're really knotty issues that have undermined reform in the last 30 years to me that is right for somebody like somebody like Louise Casey leading a commission that's intended to implement. So this resulting in a bill that delivers some change, I think is the right approach. There's so much more we could be doing now to tackle the quality of people's lives. There are some shorter term measures that the government have put in place, £86 million to boost the Disabled Facilities Grant this year. That's a grant to help people adapt their homes, isn't it, for their needs. Will that help?

To me, that sort of feels a little bit like a tiny sticking plaster. So that would impact on probably around 2,000 adaptations for people. So that's quite a small amount. So if you think of just Nottinghamshire, so I support 13,000 people with long-term care needs, about 20,000 people we have contact with in a typical year so that's quite a small amount of people what it doesn't do is tackle the impact of the national insurance contributions a blended living wage package and

some of the complexity of need we know that people need more care now than they did three years ago so it kind of doesn't cover those costs of care in the shorter term. Can we just briefly go back to basics and can you explain who adult social care is actually for? Yes, adult social care is about supporting people to live a good life in a place they call home. If we think about the just short of a million people that draw upon adult social care support, they're kind of in two groups. So one group is working age adults. So it might be somebody of my age. I mainly support 24 hours a day or I mainly just a little bit of support with a bit of prompting and support some of my daily living. The other group of people that we support are people who are older. And some of those people have some health

needs there are many people that have social care support where really what they're needing is about their social life so it's quite distinct from health care and it works in a whole range of ways so we provide support to people maybe who are detained in mental health hospitals or in prison we support people who are living in their own home. It's like a range of settings and a range of things that we do to support people to enjoy that good life I mentioned. And who pays for it? That's a really good question. So it will really depend on the individual, which is what really complicates us thinking about what the long-term plan would look like and how we tackle some of these issues. for example if you know I'm in my early

50s so if I have a mental health difficulty a lifelong mental health difficulty and I need support from somebody to help me manage my my day-to-day living to prompt me to get up and to find work and do the things that are important to me I would make a small contribution to my care so if I even if I received welfare benefits I would make a contribution contribution to my care. So even if I received welfare benefits, I would make a contribution to that from my own income. It's very likely that my care would be funded by the council. So council tax would be a contribution. But if I had my parents who were older, it may be that my parents had some health needs as they were ageing.

Some may not. And they, again, would be funding their own care and doing that quite independently. So there may be an element of NHS funding that somebody receives. But again mainly the person would be making a contribution to their care and if they're a younger person again it would be the same thing. So maybe I have a learning disability, I need quite a high degree of support, I'm paying for my social care. That may be alongside other things like housing support or DWP support. There may be a whole range of things that someone's accessing.

As we've been saying, the vast majority of care workers are women. From people that we've heard anecdotally, I've got a family member who is a care worker, tough and quite low paid job, I think it's fair to say. Why do you think it is that more women do it? And how can they be supported in your view? I think part of womanhood is part of caring. So, you know, I was drawn to care, I did care work in my early career, some 30 years ago, and I really felt like I wanted to give back. And I think many women feel that they want to be supporting others so I think it's a profession that we're attracted to and it's also become a low pay workforce over time so when I started 30 years ago I was paid more than the national living wage I think over time as we've reduced our

investment into adult social care and it's competed with other public services we pay people less and less because of those reductions it's become unfortunately a low-paid workforce. Let's bring in Helen Walker chief executive of Carers UK. Helen the Carers UK is a national charity as we said supporting unpaid carers there there are 4.7 million unpaid carers in England three million of which are women. So this leads on from what we were just talking about. So how do you think these proposals that we've been hearing about could affect them? Well, I mean, it's very difficult to say, isn't it? I think we have to welcome the fact that this government are looking to reform social care long term and looking to have cross-party consensus so we

actually get the reform that we need. I think the issue though, as Melanie has already said, is the timelines. So the short term is where we see there isn't sufficient funding, there are massive problems for social care and we need to make sure that in the spending review there's enough money to prevent further cuts in social care and to keep it going, if you like. Because at the moment, unpaid carers are picking up the slack. And I think that's the big anxiety is that, you know, unpaid carers, you know, we've gone through COVID where social care in many places shut down. They haven't had respite breaks. They've gone into the cost of living crisis. And now suddenly they're continuing to prop up a crumbling health and social care system. And at some point,

they themselves will break if they don't get adequate respite. Many carers say that they just can't cope anymore. They're not getting adequate support. They're not getting adequate respite breaks. So I think there needs to be some short term solutions. And as Melanie said, a national carer strategy to get cross government support for unpaid carers to recognise that they are everywhere. And they need support in a variety of different ways. That's something that could be done in the short term, whilst Baroness Casey is undertaking this review. And what do you think of the fact that she's undertaking the review? Do you feel optimistic with her at the head of it? Yes, I do feel optimistic. I think she's done some really good work in the past. I think that she's a cross-party peer so that there is a greater

chance of having cross-party consensus on the outcome of this review. And so instead of it failing at that final hurdle, as it has so consistently done, that we've got a fighting chance of actually getting a sensible solution for social care, which will help unpaid carers in the longer term. But my anxiety, as with many of our colleagues in social care, is that we need some short-term investment. You know, we've got this big issue with the national insurance increase and the increase in national living wage, which has a particular impact on social care because it is so low paid. So we need to make sure that there's adequate funding in the short term

to prevent any further crumbling of that social care service. That was Melanie Williams and Helen Walker there. Well, we approached the Department of Health and Social Care who directed us to West Streeting's statements. He said, we are appointing one of our country's leading public service reformers and Whitehall's greatest doer to finally grasp the nettle on social care reform. We also asked you for your views

and experiences of social care. And here are some of them. Brenda says, none of your guests mention the elephant in the room. Many get no financial help whatsoever as they have savings in excess of £23,500. However the cost caring companies charge can be from £20 to £40 an hour. Care home costs also vary. She goes on to say my husband's care for the final 10 months of his life was just over £1,200 a week. Savings often do not last long.

And this one here from Paul. Paul says, I cared for my mother at our home in Essex for over nine years through her dementia illness. I believe that only a national care service that's free at the point of need, like the NHS, will provide a fair ongoing solution to the care crisis. Thank you very much for all your comments.

Now, we had a very special Woman's Hour programme on New Year's Day, all about walking. If you missed it, don't worry, you can listen back on BBC Sounds. Nuala looked at what really happens to our bodies and our minds when we go out for a stomp. She also heard from women who find inspiration from walking. And she was joined by the comedian and author Miranda Hart, whose love of walking became even stronger after she was unable to go out for a walk for a prolonged period of time due to illness. And Nuala began by asking Miranda how important nature has been through her life. Yes, I've always loved the great outdoors. It's the most wonderful playground, isn't it? And I love space and solitude and quiet and often prefer animals to people as an introvert,

you know, all that. But the fascinating sort of discovery I went on was that when I became ill I was bed bound and house bound on and off for many years suddenly my beautiful playground that bought me peace and regulation and excitement was was no longer there so I now have an even deeper respect for it and love for it because I lost it for a few years. So it's been a really interesting experience. And maybe we could take a moment just to talk about that, because I saw you have described dealing with your fatigue as almost being in lockdown for years. And yes, in lockdown, which many of us went through, we were able to get snippets of nature. Many people talked about nature kind of keeping them sane but I can't imagine what it must have been like to physically not be able to go

and immerse yourself in a way that you had previously. Yeah it was really tough and also it's that feeling just missing movement generally as well so what what I've I often did was imagine myself moving and I felt the effect on on my body sort of a little light in that and there's some extraordinary science research upon the effect of visualizing movement helping the helping the body but that's not really my area but I then found myself going right I'm really missing that connection I'm really missing the sense of movement because even if you're still in nature it's moving you know the grasses are the streams are moving the grasses are blowing in the wind it's just that sense of I'm going to be okay everything's progressing and gently rather than

in the pace of our modern nature so I started just looking out of the window and just kind of connecting with nature in a very different way so So the tree outside my window on and off years became my friend, which might sound rather trite, but it was seeing this, having respect for this amazing, living, growing, moving thing and seeing it through the seasons and realising I was a part of that. You know, I'm often surprised by seasons. I mean, it gets me every year, you know, when the trees turn, for example, in September, October, or when buds begin in spring. I can totally understand you having that connection, particularly if it is your window, I suppose, onto a life that you want to get to. And also, what I really learned from it was, you know, often when I was well and fit and healthy and just, I suppose, took that movement for granted or the ability to get out and about. Often in February, I was like, oh, come on, spring, you know, we sort of moan in January, don't we?

And that sort of pace, I think, that often modern life has got us into, I was suddenly like, gosh, when you just have a window to stare at, you realize how slow it is, but how right that is. You know, and the winter for me now has become a time where I allow myself to go fallow as well. You know, and I think I can sort of trust the process, rest more, trust that things will be OK, that actually the slower pace is better for me. So I learned a lot from that as well, just being more present and still rather than trying to rush nature. And that is something that I found fascinating with you, that it was kind of when you reached a level of acceptance, which you're talking there in a way about nature as well, kind of respecting it'll take as long as it takes, that that was almost when you began to turn a corner. And I want to speak about a butterfly that was in your room that you detail in your book.

Can you tell our listeners about that? One morning I went, I wasn't fully bed-bound at that point. I went downstairs to my parents' house where I was spending lockdown. And I heard this fluttering against a window and I saw this butterfly frantically sort of you know against the window trying to get out and I got it on the edge of a book and took it to an open window and it just sort of sat on the windowsill kind of almost like getting its breath and its wings sort of slowing down. And the metaphor was easy for me to see there, that I really felt when I heard and saw the butterfly

flapping against the window, I thought, that's how I feel internally. I'm still so angry that I'm unwell. I'm still so angry I can't go for those big stomps. I'm just wanting to get out there. And actually then this butterfly showed me by, you know, its natural process, just take a breath. This is where you are now.

What is the point of fighting against it? Is this going to be exhausting? And so I had this beautiful moment with this butterfly who eventually then just flew off and gave me this beautiful lesson and acceptance, which, can I just say is still blooming hard every every day but you did start those steps to getting better and I'll move from butterflies to bluebells it was really walking and getting out of my mum's garden and just taking very small steps literally metaphorically that really did help my fatigue-based illness. But maybe six months after I'd first started walking,

I went the first place I'd been in Cornwall for a long time, so outside my own house. And it was like being in a film. And I just wasn't expecting bluebells. I was walking on this little path, and I saw a clump of little bluebells. And I thought, oh, my gosh, am I going to come across a carpeted woodland? And I did. And I just sat down and couldn't stop crying

not only I think it was the initial beauty of those bluebells but because I'd imagined them and never thought maybe I'd never see them again it then also made me think about what I'd been through so I was crying on many griefs there as well but yeah I will never take for granted seeing something as exquisitely beautiful and simple as a bluebell ever again. And if I were to ask you how you think those first steps in your mum's garden, for example, or nature helped you heal. And obviously, it's not the same for everyone. This is your personal experience. What would you say it was?

I would say it was a sort of mind-body connection of me trusting my body again, that it did have some energy in it. Because with fatigue-based illnesses, you do lose a lot of your energy cells. And, you know, ME is a very real physical condition, not a behavioral one. And then you lose a lot of trust in your body thinking how much have I got will I do too much and all that sort of thing so it was literally sort of we'll do 10 paces and working with my body and and it telling me when I'm pushing it and I would do things I'm doing it now with my hands I'm just sort of like a conductor I'm just sort of would just move my limbs about even when I was sitting up in bed and I could feel my body and energy coming back. I'm just thinking back to something you said a

few minutes ago. You know, when you talked about you would imagine yourself moving before you were able to, what did you imagine then? Oh, well, I had great fun daydreaming. I was like, well, I read about visualisation. about visualization yes yes I've read about this too there's even studies that basically if you imagine yourself practicing the piano it can be as helpful sometimes as actually practicing the piano that's the one I remember yeah and you start going you know when you're particularly when you're ill you're like oh really please you know it's very hard to believe then you read these studies of particularly with with illnesses I mean I read the research on fatigue-based illnesses of the brain telling the

body I mean it's just fascinating that it's safe to move and it does help repair some cells apparently so I would I was told you know start visualizing I was very resistant to start with because I was like how's this going to help you know and I thought well I might as well I'm just lying here and instead of being in a negative loop of thought pattern I might as well go on flights of fantasy and daydream so oh I walked up mountains and I was just a man you just sort of speak out loud and imagine it and imagine the freedom in your body and you sort of talk to yourself and say I've got strength now going up this mountain I feel powerful and strong I won Olympic gold at rowing once oh well done Miranda and I did actually genuinely I committed to doing it for a bit almost like to kind of as a skeptic

going is this going to really work I have to say it did but I want to talk about play you mentioned the outdoors being a playground I was struck by that word and there is a whole chapter where you talk about play and having adventures and there's one chapter and I'll read a little of what you wrote we have been duped yet again into thinking that there is no time to catch a falling leaf, watch a sunset, nap under the shade of a tree, dangle our feet in a river, how poorer we are for it. We've spoken very much about the physical.

If you're OK speaking a little bit about the mental impact or transformation that you have had, being able to do some of the things that you weren't able to do before? Yeah, I think finding that sense of play, actually, in nature, just little things like walking barefoot on the grass. I mean, I'm smiling now just thinking about it. And that smile, you know, calms your nervous system, which calms your immune system, which calms your immune system,

which the immune system is my big problem. Just that smile, just the sense of awe and wonder as well. And also I walk slower. The blessing in hefty disguise of fatigue is I've had to walk slower. And so I look up more and I look around. And it's the slower pace that really calms my mind. I have a very busy mind are you kind of watching yourself now to make sure you don't fall back into old habits for example

and is there perhaps a favorite walk that helps you stay on the straight and narrow even on a curved path I love it I love it um yeah I think every day I have to my book I kind of have these 10 treasures as I call them and I do have to um pun intended walk them you know every day and keep an eye on myself it's very easy to go back into old patterns and there isn't a particular walk at the moment I'm still having to manage fatigue. So I'm still not able to go on a big sort of cardio power walk or anything like that. So it's just 20 minute, very slow walks around a field. And I find something new in it every day. That was Miranda Hart there speaking to Nuala for our New Year's Day programme all about walking.

And you can hear the whole programme by going to BBC Sounds and searching for Woman's Hour for Wednesday the 1st of January. Now being a parent to adult children can be complicated, as can being the adult child. It's something psychotherapist Dr Julia Samuel often writes about. So what are the challenges of parenting your adult children who've moved away from home and are living their own lives. What's the best way to go about it? Well, Julia joined Claire MacDonald along with the actor and author Helen Lederer, both of whom have adult children. She began by asking Julia how you define an adult child.

I think there are kind of phases. There's like 18 to 25, 25 to 35. So I think it goes in decades. It isn't when you're legally adult, because I think young people mature much later than, say, my generation did. So I think there's a whole way of parenting children from 18 to 25 to when they then kind of more moving into their lives, forming strong attachments and having their own children. So the period up to 25, they still look to you a little bit more and you can still have that traditional parental role. Is that what you're saying? Well, I think you have to kind of reconfigure it because you will have less control and less power. So I think all of life, we need to understand our sort of necessary losses of how we can kind of move in and connect and support. And when we have to stand back and let go, you know, giving children roots and wings. But I think the level of it changes as they change in

age. Helen, that's an interesting phrase, isn't it? Necessary losses. How old is your daughter? She's 34 currently. Yes. The thing about letting go is quite an interesting one. I don't think you ever let a child go in a voluntary sort of manner, but you have to slightly fake it. I'm learning how to not say things. I think maybe that's my new thing for the 2025, to just not say things. That would be a good thing, wouldn't it? Julia would counsel me that that's a good thing. You're a great actress, so you don't give a word. Not that good.

Because, of course, the thing about a mother and child, I think, is that you press each other's buttons and know each other so well so that even though you cannot speak, the dynamic of the relationship is going to be acted out, whatever. Your daughter doesn't live in this country anymore. No, so she lives in Ibiza. And so I've had to get used to it. I don't feel like a typical parent if there is such a thing

in that there are colleagues of mine whose child lives locally and they might have children by now. And so there's a whole community that's kind of replicated in some way. So I don't feel the acting out option, but lots of WhatsApps and visits and things. And maybe that is more normal now about how young people, you know, move away and do more things. Try not to take it as a rejection, obviously, Claire. She has left the country. I suffer.

She has left the country. Julia, so where should we begin with this then? So when they move into this adult phase and, you know, you're still so emotionally connected, but in a way, I suppose the hardest thing, and I felt this when my children, my eldest is 21, and they start to have relationships and it's almost like being chucked isn't it it's like you know but hang on what about me that's that's is that the big one that you have to kind of get over that their emotional

connection their first and foremost emotional connection may lie elsewhere now completely I mean as Helen said that we never let go that our love for them is as strong as when they were five as when they were 15 and that deepens and grows i think over time but it's learning how to love them i mean i was still telling my 25 year old daughter to wear a coat when she went out in the weather and she's kind of turned on me said mom i'm 25 i don't need to be told to wear a coat and this year at Christmas all my children are married now and they have young children and I could really feel you know so much love and pride in seeing them with their kids but also I was in the background I was kind of observing while they were looking after their young babies and you know they were screaming or

or laughing or whatever it was but I was very much not the focus and I think it's learning how to love and feel that deep love and it is also as you say it's a bit like being chucked you have to kind of deal with the pain of it and I think learning you know pain is the agent of change and if we can be a parent who could allow ourselves to feel that sense of I'm really not the center of change. And if we can be a parent who could allow ourselves to feel that sense of, I'm really not the centre of their lives anymore. You know, I am not the mothership. They don't turn to me, they turn to their partners, they turn to their kids, they turn to their peers. I mean, they may well turn to me at times, but not to feel hurt and then not to act out on the hurt,

I think really matters. I love Julia's advice. Can I just say this is great. But what happens when you get when we are imperfect as humans? And I mean, I still mourn the loss of my daughter's first boyfriend, who I loved and was most distraught when that ended. But that was like many years ago. But the chucking thing, everything you say makes such sense. But the actual acting out of it. And are young people more dependent or less dependent? I mean, I talked to my mother about anything and everything,

but she must have been alarmed probably at the things I did looking back but I haven't stopped my child I mean have you have either of you said actually don't do that I don't experience myself as saying don't do not do that yeah she makes choices and the choices are hers so your question to Julia is the bits you find tricky is you say you say nothing Julia is that the right thing to do because you're you must be like a Vesuvius there Helen bottling it all up. We've just had Christmas you know yeah. So what would be your advice on that one? Well I think if you're really worried about something it's more collaborative so it's not like telling them what to do it's you know I see you're with this person or doing this job and actually I can see you're really unhappy.

What's going on? So you can kind of own it and ask questions and be. Although actually one of my children hates me asking questions. So with him, I don't ask questions. So you have to kind of tune yourself to meet the child. But also, I think, you know know we have impossible dreams and impossible expectations for our children and they're often about the disappointments in our own lives so I think some of it is doing the work on ourselves about what is us and what is them but also to look at what are the fault lines that we've carried from our parents that we played out with our children that are going to play out again that we need to try and repair some of those mistakes.

That's such a lot of work, Julia, if I may interrupt. I mean, I love what you're saying. And I do notice that young people, I mean, young people, a lot of young people have had therapy. And maybe the modern generation don't hold back. They're quite bold in their critique of us in a way that I probably wouldn't have mentioned to my parents. None of us are perfect, so we know that. Every human being is going to make mistakes as a parent. So that's a given.

And we also have to live our own lives. And so that's quite a busy life to kind of therapize myself, therapize how I suffered at the hands of my own parents' weakness and how not to do that or to do it in a different way. There is a lot of work, and I think that's a really good point, actually. There's a boldness, isn't there, in this generation, whereas previously we may not have had those conversations with our own parents, still not to this day.

So you maybe feel slightly affronted. Well, the younger generation, I mean, I know a lot of young people through my work, so I'm lucky. But then when you meet the partner of your child, that's a different relationship again because they haven't chosen you to be a friend. So I have to get my head around that. And there is a boldness and a new way of communicating that I think I have to catch up on. So let's put that question then back. What can you do when you feel uncomfortable about the way you're being spoken to either by your adult child or their partner?

How do you navigate that one? I mean, I think love is work. Life is work. And, you know, if you think how much we love our children, it's probably worth the effort if we put the time aside. Yes. And I think the big thing rather than communicating is becoming a really good listener so you know i think we always on transmitters parents but actually if we really listen and try and reflect back what we've understood then you can build bridges of connection the way you can then have many differences and be as winnicott said a good enough parent we're never no families are perfect're all imperfect. So I'm not talking about kind of this kind of cookie cutter, perfect parent. You know, my children never stopped taking

the piss out of me, all the terrible things I did. And actually, you know, they do skits about it. So it's being able to navigate the difficulties and also the breaking of understanding so that you can repair and reconnect. That was Julia Samuel and Helen Lederer there. Still to come on the programme, we'll hear the music of Dolly Parton, the subject of a new musical with its star, Trisha Pelluccio. And remember that you can enjoy Women's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, just subscribe to The Daily Podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Now, a team of four women from Wales are kickstarting their new year with a record-breaking rowing challenge that's been

three years in the planning. Sophie, Janine, Maya and Polly are friends from the Nayland Rowing Club in Pembrokeshire, and they're about to spend 60 days together in a 10-metre long ocean rowing boat to cross the Atlantic. They're going to row 3,200 miles unaided from Lanzarote to Antigua and are set to break two world records along the way. 32-year-old Sophie will be the first person with cystic fibrosis to row any ocean and 70-year-old Janine will be the oldest woman to complete this challenge. She's hoping to set a Guinness World Record. Well, I was joined by Sophie and Janine earlier this week and I began by asking Sophie how the idea for this challenge all came about. So about three years ago we were

at our local rowing club and Janine asked me one day if I'd ever thought about rowing across the Atlantic and my response to her was are you asking me to row across the Atlantic with you and she said yes I think I am and that was the start of that. Brilliant tell me how it's all been like from that point to this point. And are you feeling ready to go? Well, I think it's been a bit of a crazy journey the past few years in itself. And we knew when we decided to take on this challenge that getting to the start line, when we spoke to other ocean rowers, they've all told us that often getting to the start line is actually the hardest part because you're trying to do so many different things like raising the money to be able to go turn ourselves into ocean rowers getting ourselves

physically fit but also you know we're doing this alongside um you know our normal lives and working you know so and it's sort of like i sort of see it as it's like having another part-time job on top of uh you know my already full-time job. So it's been really exciting and we've learned so much. And I think that we can probably all say that we're not the same people now that we were when we first signed up to the challenge. It's been really testing at times, but we've worked amazingly well together as a team. And we've all been willing to sort of go on that sort of journey, really. And I think we're all ready to go in terms of, you know, we've spent three years talking about doing it. So now it's time to actually do it. But I think there's also definitely, you know,

when are you ever ready to go and get in a 10 metre long boat for 60 days? I can't imagine ever being ready. Janine, when you first approached Sophie and said about this, did you realise that you could potentially be record breaking and be the oldest woman to complete this challenge? No, I didn't. I hadn't really thought about that. I just wanted to do it. And then it was incidental. I happened to be the oldest woman at 70. I think the oldest woman at the moment is 64. Are there any concerns for you over that? I think for me, I'm very fit. I'm very active. And I always have been. I've been a zero for over 30 years. I think the extra bits for me to be careful of is making sure that I eat enough because, you know, getting older, as you get older, you lose muscle. So if my body is metabolising muscle instead of fat,

I'm never going to put that back on. So the older I get, the more recovery time I need. So I'll have to be very careful of that. And also I'm probably more likely to break bones. That's just standard for older people, I think. Well, gosh, we really wish you the best and hope that doesn't happen. And Sophie, you've got some challenges of your own, haven't you?

You're going to be managing your cystic fibrosis. So what do you need and how do you, do you need medication? Talk me through what extra facilities you're going to need on the boat yeah so there are a few different things i'm going to need when i'm out there so um i take quite a few tablets every day so obviously i still need to be able to take my medication while i'm out there and i also do daily nebulizer treatment to help clear my lungs of any mucus um that is there so for the medication i'm going to need a fridge one of my medications has to be kept in the fridge um and so that's not

normal on an ocean rowing boat so firstly because of the um the space that's required for a fridge uh you know as you can i'm sure you can imagine there's not much space for anything let alone extra items but also on the boat, all our power, all our electricity comes from solar. And so that's one thing with ocean rowing that we're told repeatedly by the event organisers, but also the people who row the oceans, you know, managing your power on the boat can be quite difficult at times already. And so we've had to consider how we're going to manage running a fridge and a fridge that ideally we need to keep,

you know, keep running as well. So we've had to do that. And then with my nebulizers as well. So they have to be charged. So again, it's putting more strain on our power source. But also we've worked with a team and they've helped make sure that the neisers are waterproof

and are sort of unbreakable if you like as well so hopefully with you know and then with the storage of my medication as well that you know hopefully I'll be able to look after my CF as possible on the road. Can you just talk us through, Janine, what it's, 10 metres to me doesn't sound very big for four of you. How is it going to kind of work practically and sleep and things like that? We're not sure exactly.

And one thing I know is that we're not going to be doing at the end what we started doing. Most people work in shifts, so we'll have two people rowing and two sleeping it's going to be a balancing act i imagine and uh you know you're gonna do you get on as a foursome yeah we're all very different characters which is kind of enriches the team so we all have um different ways of doing things we've we been working with someone to do team building,

which has been invaluable. So understanding each other and understanding how risk affects us and how we react to risk and also understanding ourselves in it. So that's been absolutely invaluable for us. Sophie, I've got to ask, what about toilet facilities? So we'll have a bucket so the facility it'll be um a bucket and chuck it uh facility and we always say to people that we'll have two buckets on board we'll have one which is the toilet and one that will be for washing so um one of the rules is don't get the buckets mixed up. Oh, gosh. Why have you decided to go at this time of year?

Because it seems like, you know, all of us are thinking, I wish the sun would come out and you're going to go and row on a boat in the ocean. Is this a peak time to go? Yes. So obviously, we're rowing from Lanzarote over to Antigua. So the weather is much nicer there than it is here in the UK in any event. But most importantly, it's outside of hurricane season. And also then we should pick up the trade winds as well. So this is the right time of year for Atlantic crossings.

And Janine, you've done various coaching, haven't you, for other rowers? And I wonder what it is about rowing I mean clearly you both must absolutely love rowing because you're going to be doing it for a long time what is it about rowing for you and the people who you coach that that makes you want to do it so much I think that there's something about being out on the water, being outside, but out on the water. There's also the rhythm of rowing, I think. A lot of people find it very soothing. And quite a number of people that I have coached have some kind of sort of mental health problem, like anxiety or depression.

And they find that so, so helpful. It's kind of a mindful thing. And also with rowing, you sit one behind each other, so you don't do face-to-face stuff. So I think some people find that really helpful. And I've seen people's confidence growing enormously. This will be the longest I've ever done now. I've rowed the Irish Sea three times, but never done an ocean before. So it's going to be really interesting to see how that pans out. That was Janine and Sophie there and they left for Lanzarote yesterday and they set off for Antigua on the 23rd of January. Good luck to all four of them who are taking part.

Now author Beth Moran had three children in her 20s but decided to take up fostering once they flew the nest. Her new book, It Had To Be You, is inspired by her experiences of fostering 13 children in five years. She's also a successful author. She's written 12 books which have sold over 1 million copies globally. They've been translated into 10 languages. Now she used the money from her books to fund a loft conversion so she and her husband could foster more children. Beth joined Claire this week and she began by asking her when she had her biological children. I was 21 when I had my first when I had my daughter and 26 when I had my youngest. Right so they grew up. Yes. They left home. So what made you think I want to go back to the beginning. I want to do the parenting thing all over again. We still had one at home when we thought about fostering, but we had two who were in education elsewhere.

So which meant we had a spare bedroom and we still felt quite young. I was 44 when my youngest turned 18 and we just felt like we had a lot more to give. My husband had run a youth group for 10 years with a lot of vulnerable children there and although that was very hard work on a Friday night dealing with a lot of issues going on with 40 teenagers, we used to come home and just think we could maybe help some of these children. We wouldn't be perfect but we could maybe be better than what they had from what we saw. He was already helping them though, wasn't he? So that's a big step, isn't it? To go from a youth club to having them in your home and looking after them on a day-to-day basis.

Where did you feel there was a gap in the care that they weren't getting? Well, the fact they used to turn up an hour early and stand outside in the cold because you wouldn't let them in because they would rather be there than at home was a huge thing. And we just just we knew we'd got space we felt really proud of our children and how they were doing and felt like we've we've got more to give. So take us back to the first time and your first experience of fostering what was it like?

Oh it was in our first one was interesting because it was a really challenging situation, to be honest. It was an emergency placement. You just get a call, you get minimum details, they might arrive an hour or two later. So it's really quite nerve wracking, actually. And that was a short term, just 10 days for that young woman before she moved on somewhere else, which had been the plan all along for her. And is that very different? You start off there and that's quite an acute situation to start off in, isn't it? What happened after that? So we, for the first few years, we had a few more medium or short term teenagers coming to stay with us. Some of them, it was because their parents had asked for them to be taken into care.

They were struggling to cope, relationship breakdown. And it was lovely that in those instances we were able to help repair that family so the children could move back that was lovely others moved on to other family members or elsewhere and that that really suited us actually because they'd come for a few months or a year then we'd get a holiday we'd have our empty nester time which we did really enjoy some calm and peace and chance to rest before we started again but then that did change right it did change didn't it because um you had to make your home bigger yeah tell us about that well we were we were we were enjoying it and we felt like this is such worthwhile work we really love it we feel like we're doing quite a good job

and um we really sat down and thought is this something that we want to do more because we'd only ever had one child at a time and we knew that particularly for siblings to keep brothers and sisters together when they're going through such a difficult situation is a lot to be able to do that but we didn't have space my husband had a very busy job as a senior manager for an energy company and we didn't have time for more than one child so we really sat down and thought do we give our all to this and that was the month that my books really started to sell. Goodness me. Yeah yeah and I had a number one book on Kindle that autumn so we were already gearing up to have more we then got a phone call from social services saying we've had four children brothers and sisters,

who've been at the police station all day. There's nowhere for them to go. Could you have one or two? And we just felt like we said at the time we didn't even have four bedrooms. We didn't even have four beds. But we said, look, we've got camp beds. If they've literally got nowhere else to go tonight, we would love to keep these children together and they all came again an hour later lots of running around making up beds and getting things sorted um and we it was love at first sight we just absolutely loved these children we had four days with them for really wonderful days before because we didn't have all the bedrooms and various things they moved them on they split them up um so my husband went and talked to his boss and said

I'm going part-time we booked a loft conversion and as soon as we could um couple of months later the older two had been moved into a residential unit like a children's home so we knew it would be very easy for them to move back if they wanted they were 14 and 16 so we went and sort of kept nagging social services normally foster carers don't ask for teenagers to come back but we kept saying we love these children, we would really really love to have them back and so eventually they did and a week later they moved in and they're part of our family now. Did you have all four? We didn't have all four because the younger two had moved on to foster carers locally so they were settled there so they stayed. We would have loved to have had all four but they're happy and settled where they were with a different foster carers locally so they were settled there so they stayed we would have loved to have had all four but they're happy and settled where they were with a different foster carer so it was thought it

was best to let them you know not disrupt them again to have to come back to us but what we have been able to do is keep weekly contact so they have maintained that brother-sister relationship which is lovely that is an incredible commitment I mean your book was doing well your books were doing well you've got money so yeah before the loft conversion and then you bring these children back into your family what was their response to that? Honestly I think particularly for the oldest one he would say it saved his life it was everything you know I guess there's varying quality in residential units but the one they were at wasn't the loveliest place you know know, you don't have, you're not part of a family. You're people who are just paid to come in and do shifts.

The turnover of staff is very high. You're with other random children. They've got rules in place that aren't specific to you. But they just knew that the fact that we'd asked for them back, that meant more than anything for them, to be honest. And we have just, it's just worked absolutely brilliantly. How has it affected your family dynamic with your grown-up children? Yeah, a lot. It's a big thing.

Because I think even when you're in your 20s and you've moved away, you still having your mum and dad is a big thing, isn't it? And it has affected at times both me and my husband being able to help. We've had to be really clear about things like graduations or that we actually need some support so we can both do things like that um it has been something for them to adjust to but obviously they know these children's stories you know they now see them as their brother and sister um and have grown to love them as they get to know them and come home it has changed things but we it's something we're really aware of and working hard to make sure our adult children still have as much of

us as they can. That was Beth Moran talking to Claire there and her book, It Had To Be You, is out now. I'm guessing that some of us have already been back working nine to five for the first time since the new year. And the iconic singer of that iconic song Dolly Parton is the topic of a new musical. Here You Come Again is currently playing in London before it heads on tour across the UK next month and joining Claire earlier this week was the star of the show Trisha Pelluccio and Claire asked Trisha when she first became fascinated by Dolly. I first heard the song Here You Come Again on the radio when I was a little girl and my mom bought me that record. And I listened to that record so many times and

I didn't know any better that you weren't supposed to copy. So I just copied her little grackle and scratch and that kind of vibrato in her voice. And so I've been doing it my whole life. I've been singing like Dolly Parton. What is it about her? What is it about her voice, first of all? Oh, I think she's beautiful musicality. I think she has, she really trusts a very soft, beautiful part. She doesn't try to blast out belting. And, you know, when she first came on the scene, people didn't really like her voice because it was so different than that kind of old fashioned kind of, you know,

hardy country sound. She had such a small, delicate voice. But now I think we've all grown to just love it. You know, she's so much singular, you know, no one sounds like her. And she's an incredible lyricist. I mean, that's really what she wants to be known for is her songwriting. And so as an artist, I think she's created from her heart that is full of inspiration and love and joy. And so she's written these beautiful songs. And that's

really her gift. I mean, as much as she is, you know, her gift is her performing and singing. I think it's her songwriting that we really, you know. She's incredibly philanthropic as well, isn't she? She's given so much back, but she manages to be apolitical. So why has she chosen that path? Because someone as powerful as her could have said, I'm going to stick my flag on this hill. I think Dolly's very humble and that she knows that her political opinion, I'm sure she has one, that the world doesn't need to know that. She doesn't, you know, feel that egotistical need to put it out there. And I think, you know, she's also savvy and that she recognizes that it would really upset half of her audience. And her goal is to make people happy.

She doesn't need to be right. So or make people think the way she does. She's more humble than that. This feeling of her helping. Yes. Stepping into somebody's life at a moment of need and the music helping somebody. Yes. This is the basis for the musical. Yes. So tell us the story. I always thought the best way to to create a Dolly Parton musical would be to see Dolly Parton in action. So our show is an envisioning of what we think she would really be like if this situation could become true. The situation is that, you know, there's a man struggling with depression

and fear in a very uncertain time of his life in isolation. But he loves Dolly Parton and he has all of, you know, her records and pictures all around. And she comes to life in his time of need. That was the wonderful Tricia Pelluccio. And Here You Come Again is playing at the Riverside Studios until the 18th of January before heading on tour to Glasgow, York and to Manchester. On Monday, Nuala will be back from ten with a look at the role

women in the Church of England are playing in much-needed reform of the safeguarding system, as the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, officially finishes his duties and steps down. Plus, Mel Gedroych on her brand-new game show, Pictionary. That's Monday from 10. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.