Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Nelly Furtado, Woman in Myanmar, Woman’s Hour from Lord’s, Taking children out of school

Episode Date: July 20, 2024

The Portuguese-Canadian singer-songwriter Nelly Furtado has sold more than 40 million records worldwide and won awards including a Grammy. Her upbeat, genre-defying pop music dominated the charts in the 2000s, from her break out hit I’m Like A Bird to her 2006 album Loose and its stand out hit Maneater. After finding that her music had been rediscovered by a whole new generation of fans on social media, she’s back with 7, her first album since 2017.In February 2021, a coup returned Myanmar to military rule, overthrowing the democratically elected government. Under the regime, violence against civilians has escalated, with thousands jailed, tortured and killed – although the numbers are believed be much higher. At least three million people have been displaced. Just two weeks ago, a UN Report outlined the gendered impact of the coup: It found that military forces have committed widespread forms of sexual violence. However, despite the coup's devastating impact, women and girls are taking on key roles within the resistance movement. Also this month, there have been separate news reports that women are being conscripted into the military. Nuala discussed the situation with Tin Htar Swe, the former head of The BBC's Burmese Service.Woman's Hour broadcast from Lord's Cricket Ground as England faced New Zealand for the culmination of a five-match T20 International series and to mark 25 years since the Marylebone Cricket Club, that runs Lord’s, allowed women to become members. During the programme she spoke to World Cup winning cricketer Ebony Rainford-Brent and the England and Wales Cricket Board’s Head of the Women’s professional game, Beth Barrett-Wild. She also spoke to girls about why they love playing cricket. Nuala was also given a tour of Lord’s – taking in the spots of most significance to women’s history at the ground. She heard about Baroness Rachel Heyhoe Flint and Martha Grace, the mother of a player who is considered one of the all time greats, W. G. Grace. Her tour guide Rachel Pagan met her just outside the ground. Taking children out of school during term time was in the news this week as the new Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson said there "will have to be consequences" for parents who fail to keep their children in school. It’s illegal to take children out without the school’s permission. Minimum fines, imposed by local authorities, for taking children out of class without permission for five school days will rise from £60 per child to £80 per child from August.. In her first interview since taking up the post, the education secretary spoke to the BBC's education correspondent Branwen Jeffries. We hear from parent, Laura Melling who recently went viral on TikTok for discussing a fine she'd received after taking her young daughters out of school for a holiday during term time and we spoke to journalist and parenting author Lorraine Candy.Annie Garthwaite’s second novel, The King’s Mother, tells the story of historical figure Cecily Neville, mother of Edward IV and Richard III. Annie believes Cecily’s role in the Wars of the Roses has been hugely underestimated by historians and her novel places her firmly at the heart of the action. Essie Fox has written five historical novels and her most recent, The Fascination, is set in the world of Victorian theatres and travelling fairs. They join Nuala to discuss the challenge of writing the stories of women who have been overlooked by the history books.Adele, one of the world's best-selling music artists, has revealed in an interview ahead of her concerts in Munich next month, that she will be stepping back from music temporarily after growing tired of the slog of fame and missing her old life. She talks about her "tank being empty" and the author and broadcaster Emma Gannon joined Anita to talk about when it all gets a bit much.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. We have the Grammy award-winning singer-songwriter Nelly Furtado, whose upbeat, genre-defying pop music dominated the charts in the 2000s with hits like I'm Like a Bird and she's back with her new album.

And we're at Lord's Cricket Ground to mark 25 years since the Marleybone Cricket Club that runs Lord's first allowed women to become members. Here's groundskeeper Meg Ley. It's a real challenge. Sometimes there's a downpour that'll last five minutes and that's enough to write off a game at some ground. So yeah, the weather's a huge challenge and you've got to embrace getting a bit damp every now and then. We take a look at the situation for women and girls now in Myanmar following the military coup in 2021.

And as singer Adele announced this week that she's going to take a break from performing as her tank is empty, we asked if any of you had done this. So you know what I'm going to say next. Put the kettle on or pour a little something of what you fancy. Sit back and enjoy. But first, Grammy award-winning singer-songwriter Nelly Furtado has sold more than 40 million Sit back and enjoy. Loose and its standout hit, Man Eater. And after taking some time out from the music industry, Nelly Furtado found that her music from the early 2000s had been rediscovered by a whole new generation of fans on TikTok. Now she's back with a new album out later this year. The second single is released this weekend and Nelly joined me in the studio. I started by asking her if it had come as a surprise to her, the Nelly Sons.

I've seen fans that are a whole new generation at my concerts, just singing along, excited. I mean, some of them, they weren't, you know, they definitely weren't on the earth when the first songs came out. Wasn't it your daughter? So you've got an older daughter who's 21. Oh, I do. Yeah, she's almost, she's 20. 20. And she's the one who, I do. Yeah, she's almost, she's 20. 20. And she's the one who turned you on to it, right? Originally, she was kind of like about 16 and I was taking a hiatus. I had my two younger, only youngest children only a year apart.

So I was quite busy, just kind of stay at home, mum, and kind of put the music to the wayside for a couple of years. And yeah, she's in high school and she said, oh, mom, your song, your song's trending on TikTok. And I said, well, what does that mean? What is TikTok? I was really unfamiliar with that app. And it's quite funny because it's my favorite hobby now. Like I actually enjoy it and, and enjoy creating things for TikTok. But yeah, it yeah it was like oh it was like I was called back to be on to be totally I was like a call back not only by the new generations of fans discovering my music on social media etc etc but DJs actually DJs and clubs playing and remixing and rehashing old stuff you know some artists take a break and it feels like they took a break I feel like you've just always been that. Your music is just played constantly, not just in my house. I mean, it feels like your music has not stopped being played.

We started the program by talking about Adele saying she wanted to take a break. It's funny. I loved what you were saying about that, that not everybody can take a break. It's weird that you were talking about that today because literally this morning or last night, I was thinking about how my parents didn't get to take a break. They lived paycheck to paycheck. They worked very hard. And it was almost like the only day they exhaled was Sundays. But Sundays were glorious. You know, we'd wake up, my mom would put the ribbons in her hair and brush her hair. We'd put on our little fancy lace socks and our matching outfits that were somewhere hand-sewn.

And we would go, I'm getting choked up, we'd go to church and then we'd come home and Mama would make this amazing meal. And she was almost like a different person on Sundays, you know, because like many of us, she was in that, like you said, that race of just every day, just like hustling and just kind of try to make it happen. And I guess not the luxury of being able to take a break, except for on Sundays. And they were immigrants to Canada from? They were immigrants from the Azores Islands.

So my parents were born and raised in the Azores. We love to hear their names. A Minha Mai, Manuela, Maria Manuela. And my father, who passed away five years ago, bless, Antonio Josef Furtat. Yeah. So they're from Ponta Gar Garza a village in in San Miguel yeah so they immigrated to Canada for you know and we were all born there me and uh my brother and sister so you saw them work very hard I really did yeah it was it was and I worked with

them I worked alongside with them you know I worked at the motel my mother worked at I was a chambermaid and I started when I was 12 and it was so great to like really learn um I don't know how to focus and put put your energy into something and and to learn that work ethic because I really bring that with me everywhere I go I would say of course it doesn't leave you doesn't leave you because but not just because you've done it but you've seen it you've seen your parents do it yeah I've seen them work so hard and just be dynamic. You know, my mom just was beyond sort of boxes or labels, you know, she would just, she was quite a, you know, quite a great leader, even in our church community, you know, she would, she was a part of the council and was listened to. So this sort of theme of

voices and women has always been quite prominent in my life, thankfully. And did you sing whilst you're working as a chamber? I did. Yeah, I did. Yeah. I'd be like singing at the top of my lungs over the vacuum cleaner. And I'd had this one woman come with this shocked look on her face. And she goes, she said, I just heard this beautiful voice and was upstairs in my room and I had to come down and see who this was. And I just want to say, what are you doing here? I said, well, I'm cleaning room, you know, 1202. And I'm singing. So when did the break happen? You know, I decided, you know, unfortunately, because my parents lived paycheck to paycheck,

they didn't, we didn't have a college fund. So I didn't have money to pay for college. So I was like, OK, I guess I could be in debt or maybe and go to college and I went to study writing or I could maybe try this music thing. I mean, people have told me I'm good at it my whole life. I played instruments, I did choir, I did everything, all the music stuff my whole life. So I thought, OK, I knew actually, I knew I had a good chance of making it in the music industry deep whole life. So I thought, okay. I knew, actually. I knew I had a good chance of making it in the music industry. Deep, deep, deep, deep, deep down. Self-belief.

I did have the self-belief from a really early age. So I went to Toronto. But let me tell you, it wasn't easy the first year. I thought it would happen overnight, but it didn't. I moved to Toronto. The big city. I was 17. I moved to Toronto. And the big city. I was 17.

I was very young. And I kind of fibbed to my mother and said that I'm going to go stay with Tia, Tia Vita, my aunt, on her sofa and I'll be back for Christmas. I had no plan. I had no job. I just was like, I'm going to Toronto to make my dreams come true. Like, literally, I begged my sister for a job. She worked at this alarm company and one of her friends like literally begged. I didn't, I begged his boss to hire me in the customer service because I had no experience. I was the youngest person in the office.

I couldn't sell alarms. I tried it door to door. I hated it. So I couldn't, I get like anxiety. I was like, give me a different job. So I worked in this office and I just saved my money to record songs and I had this band called Nellstar and it was trip hop I loved Porter's Head oh excellent your new album seven it's going to come out in September it took two

years to put together yeah the album I've been working on the album for four years you wrote more than 400 songs I did yeah. I write a lot. And you also said that this album, that your ADHD doesn't always allow for you to organize creations in a methodical way. So it's hard for you to explain how you managed to whittle it down to 14. It's hard to explain. I think my brain makes a lot of sense in the studio, you know. And I think actually part of this journey was like leaning into that and saying, you know what? I have ADHD. Wow.

Good to know what it is now. You know, age 42 or something. And then come in to the studio and go, wow, I feel normal in here. My brain feels totally normal. Like I meant to have this brain. And so that's a part of it, right? It's like doing what you do, what your passion is, your calling. So you can like be yourself, you know? I'm so into it.

We've talked a lot about ADHD on this program, particularly women being diagnosed. Oh good, I didn't know that. How much harder it is and how it takes a bit longer. You were 42 when you got your diagnosis? I was about, yeah, 40, about 42. Yeah, 43 actually. Yeah. Yeah.

Diagnosed with ADHD. I think I noticed more that it was kind of starting to really get in the way when I was stay at home with the kids because I didn't have a creative outlet. I think like this type of musical creative outlet, because I think we need identity. You know what I mean? I think identity is an important part of the self-love. Did you feel like you lost your identity? Yeah, a little bit. Some of the identity of like just identifying as like somebody who expresses themselves through melody and lyric. I mean, I've been doing that since I was four years old. I used to just open my mouth. I didn't

understand. I would just sing outside in the backyard and just like it would just channel through me and for hours. So that's important, right? Because that's me. That's who I am. So I think when I got busy, it was like, oh, wait a second. There's like a disconnect here. But as soon as I started making music again and the first time I got to the studio, I felt a pain in my chest when I sang the first song. Because I was like, oh, is this just like, what was it? I was old? I just felt like the emotion had to get out of me, you know, in the music.

So it's just like, it's just really like how I relate to myself too, right, is writing songs. Of course, like I do it professionally, you know, and I put the music out. But obviously if I've got 500 things and no one will ever hear, maybe 14 people will hear in September. I have got to ask you very quickly because I've been obsessed with the fact that years ago you sung a very famous Bollywood song, Cubby Cubby.

And I thought when I see Nelly Furtado, I'm going to ask her how she knew the words and why she decided to sing a Bollywood song. Well, as a teenager, I had a very good friend whose father was directing the sort of the cultural festival, sort of the Indian cultural festival in my local city of Victoria, BC. But he had no singers. He had dancers, but there were no singers. And he said, you sing so beautifully. Can I teach you? Kabi kabi. And also a Lata Mangeshkar song, Ye Sama. And I said, sure.

Because I was always open-minded. And I tell people to always be open-minded, starting out with your musician. Everything that has to do with music, you try. Nelly Furtado there. Her latest single, Corazon, is out now. And her album, Seven, is coming out in September. Now, let's turn to the situation in Myanmar. In February 2021, a coup returned Myanmar to a military regime, overthrowing the democratically elected government.

Under the regime, violence against civilians had escalated and thousands jailed, tortured and killed. At least three million people have been displaced. Just two weeks ago, a UN report outlined the gendered impact of the coup. It found that the military have committed widespread forms of sexual violence and members of the resistance forces have also abused women and girls. Also this month, there have been separate news reports that women are being conscripted into the Myanmar junta despite initial exemption when the mandatory military service law was announced earlier this year. Now pregnant women and young mothers are being added to military

registration lists. Some women have fled the country because of it. Other women and girls are now taking on key roles within the resistance movement. Well, earlier this week, Nuala was joined by Tintar Sway, the former head of the BBC's Burmese service, and she asked her what the main findings of the UN's report were. What the report shows is that women, girls throughout Myanmar, they are facing the threat of gender-based violence, not just from the gender's armed forces, but also from the forces fighting against the gender. So the resistance as well as the military junta. The report clearly stated that. And because of the ongoing fighting between the gender forces and the resistant forces throughout the country, there are nearly 3 million people who are displaced. So this makes women and girls

even more vulnerable to violence, human trafficking, forced marriage and sexual exploitation. Another point that raised in this report is accountability of gender-based violence. This is very rare. This report, it's hoping that international community will take more notice of it and will provide more support for women. But I wonder, like in a situation that is happening in Myanmar at the moment between the junta and the resistance, how can there be accountability? Is there the infrastructure in the midst of this conflict to have any accountability? Absolutely not. Let us turn to some other aspects of the report. It also talks about women playing a critical role

as leaders in the resistance movement. Is this something new? I wouldn't say it is new, but it is more visible now. Previous women in ethnic armies, which is non-state armies, they have joined the combated forces before. But now women are more visible and they have formed their own all-female units. They're also at the front line. And one of the things worth mentioning is when the coup took place on the 1st of February 2021, the whole nation rose up against the coup, against the military junta, and especially

women. 60% of the protesters, they are women. And they have made this feminist movement. These many women put up clotheslines full of sarongs in the streets to deter security forces from entering into the area. Because these male military forces, they are hesitant to walk under the sarongs because there is this cultural superstitious belief that they will lose their superior masculine power and honour if they walk under the women's sarong. So this movement did work. It deterred the soldier from entering the neighbourhoods. And now what happened is this woman battalion they have formed called M2W, which is in the central Burma. They have 225 members and they are teachers, university students and also women from farming villages as well. And the age is 18 to 45, very young group. And their main duty is to make mines and to supply these mines to the resistant forces. So this is something new. And also they have in another area, ethnic control area called Kareni State, they have formed a

women's defence force battalion. So women are playing a very significant role. This is due to decades of women's group trying to promote women's rights in the country and trying to make sure that women have leadership roles. So these are the results of the women's groups working so hard in the last 20 or 30 years. And also young women, their attitude has changed. And they feel that they need to join in the struggle because it is for their future. They don't want the military dictatorship in the country, like during their mothers and grandmothers' time, they were ruled by military dictatorship and they know that the limitations women have in the society. So that's joining the army on the junta side but women are being conscripted into the

military despite an initial exemption when the mandatory military service law was announced in February this year. What's happening with that? The military is fighting against the resistant forces across the country and the military is losing. There are a lot of fatalities and also some units have surrendered. So they need to fill the manpower. So they have issued this law that all men between the age of 18 and 35 and women between the age of 18 and 27 will be eligible to serve in the army for at least two years. But at the moment, women are not being called up yet. However, Burmese Women's Union, it is a non-NGO group, they have conducted interviews across the country and they found that there are women, they are trying to leave the country because they fear that they would be enlisted.

And according to the Burmese Women's Union, the women will be called up in August. So before that, a lot of young women, those who can afford, they would leave. Those who can't afford, they would bribe the administrator, local administrators, not to enlist them. So there is a lot of concern about the young women. And the laws say that married women will be exempted. So there are some forced marriages now, so which the women's group are worried that that could lead to domestic violence as well. So it's creating a panic among the young women inside the country. And those who have fled legally as well as illegally, especially the illegally, they will cross into Thailand and they could be subjected to sexual violence and sexual exploitation, especially trafficking.

So there are concern about women leaving the country and also huge concern about women who remain in the country, who can't afford to pay the administrators and who might have to join the army. Has there been any reaction from the international community to what has arisen in the report? International community, yes, they do voice it. And the human rights, you know, at the Geneva Human Rights Convention, these are table. And a lot of women's groups, there are a number of women's groups, they have voiced it.

But apart from this, I'm not sure whether they are receiving enough support. I doubt it very much that these women receive enough support and enough recognition of the ordeals they're going through. There's one other group that I'd like to speak about, and that's the Rohingya. The UN has described the Rohingya as the most persecuted minority in the world. What about the Rohingya women? How are they affected throughout this? So the girls in Rohingya camps, refugee camps, their position is they're very vulnerable. They are prone to forced marriages and also trafficking.

There are a considerable number of cases of trafficking happening in the camps. The trouble with Rohingya, the stories about Rohingya, is that the media is not allowed to go into the camps. In Cox's Bazaar, which is in Bangladesh, there's the largest Rohingya camp. And it's very difficult to have media access. But there are academic researchers who got access to it. These Rohingya women, they face multiple challenges like insecurity, violence, you know, extremely limited freedom of movement. And also their lives and also freedoms are heavily constrained by the control of that community that the communities have over their social lives, especially marriage, regarding marriage and education. So child marriages increase markedly in the camp. There is this group called Eric and Syringe Salvation Army.

They are very active in the camp and they threaten women who want to seek divorce and who are active in women's rights in the camp. That was Tintar Sway speaking to Nuala and there are support links on the Woman's Hour website. Now on Wednesday's programme Nuala broadcast live from Lord's Cricket Ground. It was to coincide with the culmination of the T20 international series between England and New Zealand. It's also marked 25 years since the Marlborough Cricket Club that runs Lord's allowed women to become members. During the programme, she spoke to World Cup winning cricketer Ebony Rainford-Brent and the England and Wales Cricket Board's head of the women's professional game, Beth Barrett-Wild.

She also spoke to girls about why they love playing cricket. Nuala was also given a tour of Lords, taking in the spots of most significance to women's history at the ground. She heard about Baroness Rachel Hayhoe Flint and Martha Grace, the mother of a player who's considered one of the all-time greats, WG Grace. Her tour guide Rachel Pagan met her just outside the ground. So we haven't actually gone through the gates yet. We're going to bring our Women's Hour listeners with us in a moment. But in front of us is a bust of a very important lady. That's right.

Rachel Hayhoe Flint, Baroness Hayhoe Flint as she became, who was captain of the England women's team actually for their first ever match here in 1976, but also went on to do huge amounts for women's cricket and this is the gate named after her that is quite an honor at lords yes there are two gates named after cricketers there's uh this gate here the hayhoe flint gate and just along the road is uh the grace gates named for wg but i would say that um that's also inspired by a woman because his mother, Martha, coached him and his brothers had three sons go on to play test cricket. So women all around here.

But that's probably not what people first expect when they think about Lords. I mean, it took a long time for women to actually manage to make it onto that revered pitch. That's right so although MCC was founded in 1787 our first women's international match at Lourdes didn't take place here till 1976 then in terms of members and MCC membership we didn't get our first women members until 1999. Let's stop there for a second 1999 so we're literally 25 years on. That's right. So the MCC members in 1998, after a bit of a false start, they then decided, yes, we do want to welcome women to MCC membership after all. And how significant was Barnas Hayhoe Flint in that

achievement? Totally pivotal, really. She applied for, well, she was nominated for membership and was told, no, you can't. And then she was one of the first ten women who became Honorary Life members in 1999. How many women members are there now? Just under 1,000 female members now of various different stripes. But as we have a ceiling on the number of full members that we can have... Is it 18,000?

Just over that but that means that we operate on a one out one in for our full members. Right through we go and into the hallowed cricket ground off Lord's. So here we come to the Harris Garden. How would you describe the Harris Garden? It's a green space with some pretty impressive gates leading into it, a flint wall at the back of it, but really the thing it most resembles is a disused tennis court, a lawn tennis court, and that's because it is. Oh! So we've walked into the Harris Garden. We are on the cement pavers, but you can't help but notice a black disc in the ground, a plaque to the women's ashes that is written in gold,

that they were created on this site. Rachel? The plaque was installed in 2023, last year, really to mark the 25th anniversary of the women's ashes being created in this actual garden in 1998. How were they created? Well, they were created by the burning of some items which were then put into a large wooden cricket ball.

The items were a bale and a copy of the rules of the Women's Cricket Association. And the bale being one of the little sticks that's at the top of the stump that we see at cricket matches. That's right. The three stumps and the two bales on top mark a wicket. And it was quite an unusual creation because they got the bale and the WCA rules

and then what do we do with them? And suddenly we were casting about and from the kitchen suddenly there came a wok. And so they were burned in a wok on this spot. I've just entered the pavilion. It is a beautiful building, lots of polished wood and brass steps making their way up through the building.

And there are many, many portraits of Sir Vivian Richards, for example. But most of the portraits are of men. We're going to see one of a woman. As you come out of the England dressing room and walk down towards the long room, it's right in front of you, it's one of the first things that you see when you leave the dressing room and it's a portrait of Claire Taylor, a magnificent batter for England

and who actually holds the record here for the highest one-day international score and that's men or women. She scored 156 not out in an amazing partnership actually with Caroline Atkins. Painting, she looks deep in thought. She is a very thoughtful woman, a very inspirational woman.

I have been privileged to know her for quite some time. She's now our chair of cricket and she sits on the MCC committee and on occasion when I attend those meetings we usually sit together. So it's really just a fantastic honour for me to do that. But also I would say she's someone who very much sees her role in inspiring people to pick up a bat and play. So we're going to leave the pavilion. Through the double doors here, I can see the green cricket ground.

And I can also see it's a little bit of a grey sky overcast and I'm going to ask Meg Lay, the groundskeeper here, how she manages that and everything else. So I've sat down in the mound stand and it's spitting rain a little bit. It's stopped right now but somebody who's watching the weather very closely is Meg Ley she is one of the few female groundskeepers here or sports turf professional as they're also known how did you end up here Meg I mean it's a pretty rare role for a woman to get yeah it's a crazy story really I'm just from a farm in the middle of nowhere in New Zealand and came over to England a couple of years ago found myself without a job and ended up working at Gloucestershire County Cricket Club.

So I did two pretty amazing years there and then a job popped up at Lourdes, which never happens. It's such a great place to work. And yeah, when that job came up, I had to go for it and I was lucky enough to get it. But this is so male dominant, particularly the part of Lourdes that you're taking care of. Yeah, I mean, the fact that Lourdes has been around for 210 years and not only, you know, am I the first woman closely followed by my colleague Emma Lynch, there haven't been women even applying for these roles. So we want to generate interest in it. It's such a great job and there needs to be more women here wanting to do it. I mean, women's sports on the rise so much

and we need to be able to facilitate that properly. So the obvious solution is getting more women here wanting to do it. I mean, women's sport's on the rise so much, and we need to be able to facilitate that properly. So the obvious solution is getting more women into these roles. I can see lots of smiles. You're a woman that loves your job. How do you cope on a day like today? We're looking out on the pitch, or grounds, should I say. Beautiful and green. We can already see the stratified layers of the dark and lighter green.

But there is also a potential cover coming over. How do you manage with English weather? It's a real challenge. Sometimes there's a downpour that will last five minutes, and that's enough to write off a game at some ground. So, yeah, the weather's a huge challenge, and you've got to embrace getting a bit damp every now and then. Is there anything that you've specifically noticed,

being a woman in this role? Anything surprising perhaps? Not really. I mean, it's a very physical job. You do have to be fit, but there's no reason why any woman couldn't do that. And yeah, I mean, I wouldn't do a day where I do less than 30,000 steps. So it's full on. So a little earlier, there was rain, and you immediately sprung into action with your colleagues. What were you doing? Yeah, so it's really important that we cover the pitch and square as early as we can. The outfield's all sand-based and so that can take quite a lot of water,

whereas the square is clay so we need to cover that as quickly as possible, especially the test pitch. And so, yeah, we started up the hover cover and that takes quite a bit of effort to push. It usually takes four or five of us and then we rolled out the sausages and that covers... The sausages? I suppose it's kind of like the inside of toilet paper. It just rolls out and covers the square quite nicely. And what do the gang back in New Zealand think of it all?

Oh, everyone's pretty stoked. None of them are quite sure how I've managed to get to Lords. I've watched games of cricket here since I was a little kid on the TV and so to actually be here, it's pretty amazing and yeah, I think mum and dad are pretty proud. Hope to bring them here one day. What about the England-New Zealand match that's coming up between the women? Oh, I can't wait.

Who are you supporting? New Zealand, of course. Of course, I can't say anything else, can I? I've got a few ex-teammates playing and a couple of girls I used to play against and so yeah, I'll be really rooting for the Kiwis for sure. And you can listen back to the entire programme by searching for Wednesday's episode on BBC Sounds. Still to come on the programme, how are your energy levels?

Do you feel like you're running on empty? A bit like Adele who said this week that her tank is empty. She's announced that she's planning to take a break from performing to have a well-earned rest. So we ask if you feel the same. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast.

It's free via BBC Sounds. Now, here's something you might have an opinion on. Taking children out of school during term time. It was in the news this week because the new Education Secretary, Bridget Philipson, has said there will have to be consequences for parents who fail to keep their children in school. It's illegal to take children out without the school's permission. Minimum fines imposed by local authorities for taking children out of class without permission for five school days will rise from £60 per child to £80 per child from August.

In her first interview since taking up the post, the Education Secretary spoke to the BBC's education correspondent, Branwyn Jeffreys. Look, I understand that families are under pressure, but parents should not be taking their children out of school during term time for holidays. They just should not be doing that. And should they do it, there will have to be consequences. That's a well established practice and it's here to stay. Now, of course, some children in the UK have already

started their summer holidays, but I want to know what do parents make of this? Laura Melling recently went viral on TikTok for discussing a fine she'd received after taking her young daughters out of school for a holiday during term time. Have a listen. Hey, so today is the day I got my letters through from Lancashire County Council. So they are basically, it's our school fines. So we took our children to Egypt

and the kids missed eight days of school. Naughty, naughty. The school did say that we would get a fine and it has actually come through so it basically says um this notice gives you the opportunity to pay a fine instead of being prosecuted the amount is 60 pounds 120 in accordance to the table i believe if you pay this fine within the time limit set out no further action will be taken against you in connection with the offence sounds awful doesn't it the offence um and you will avoid getting a criminal record a criminal record for taking your

kids on holiday ridiculous absolutely ridiculous so it's 60 pound per child so that's 120 pound technically from me for my kids and then 120 pound from the husband, but obviously we're together anyway. So, yeah, £240. £240 for an all-inclusive holiday for two weeks in the storm and we definitely saved £240 then going into school holidays. So it's still a win-win to me. I'll be paying the fine and whatever, whatever. She couldn't join us on the programme but did tell us if the government put as much time and energy that they used to find parents into regulating airline and hotel chains,

increasing prices during school holidays, then it wouldn't be an issue. Well, I was joined by the journalist and parenting author Lorraine Candy to get her opinion. You've got four children. You've written a bestselling book about parenting teenagers. What's your view on this? Well, I do take the view that, you know, you can't have a rule where everyone thinks, well, this doesn't apply to me. I think schools are really struggling at the moment. You know, one-fifth of children miss school in this country, according to latest figures. Three-tenths of children have missed school because they're socially anxious. There is an attendance issue. There's a growing number of children have missed school because they're socially anxious. There is an attendance issue.

There's a growing number of children refusing to go to school. It's really important. It's not important just for their education. It's important for their socialisation, for their friendship groups, for the care that you would have looking after children from all sorts of backgrounds. So I think to say, you know, to save £240, I'm going to disrupt everything at school.

I know it's really difficult. Lots of teachers in schools that I chat I know it's really difficult. Lots of teachers in schools that I chat to say it's really difficult for the kids left behind. It's kind of unfair. And I think it's not really a great role modelling to show your children the rules are there, the law is there, but it doesn't apply to me. I think that's really unhelpful, actually. Do you think it's less problematic, though, for primary age children? It's not like they're sitting any exams or SATs. No, it's less problematic for them from an educational point of view, but from an emotional and respect to the school and we're all in this together point of view, it does matter. It matters for the kids left behind, is what the teachers

have told me when I've talked to them about it. It's disruptive. Yes, they are going to miss some days and they're not, you know, they're not doing GCSEs, they're not doing A-levels, so there's nothing to catch up on. Although I know a lot of parents sometimes do this and then ask teachers to set work so their children don't get left behind, which creates further work. You know, there is an issue with a hyperinflation of the cost of travel during the school holidays.

That is unregulated and shouldn't be going on, should be looked at. But I do think if you're in the school system, you are agreeing to the rules of the school system, not from a traditional, you know, you must do this point of view, but really because it's really respectful to teachers who at this moment in time are really struggling to keep kids in schools. I just think it's an unhelpful message. I mean, I'm not judging parents because I think that's really unhelpful as well. But to say it doesn't apply to me,

if everyone said that, then it would be really difficult for the school system to work as it does. Laura said that the energy should, like you just mentioned, should be put into regulating the airline and hotel chains who put the prices up during school holidays. What do you make of that? You've got four children. Have you ever been tempted? We have had school absence when they were younger, when it was agreed, when we had it agreed in advance, and that was around my working at the time. So you have taken them out of school?

With agreement from the headmaster, yes. What was that for? I think they were four and five at the time. Well, they only had two at the time. That was to do with a family funeral. So there was an extenuating circumstance. And I think there are caveats. There will be caveats where children who have more needs or who need something else where it would be incredibly beneficial

for them to be out of school for that time. But obviously each school has to make that judgment themselves. And it's really, it's hard, isn't it? Being a parent's really hard. You can think, well, you know what, my kids are the most important thing. I want to get them off on this trip. It's a once in a lifetime thing. It's going to save me, you know, we're all living through a cost of living crisis. It's going to save me money. But I just don't think, you know, it's setting the message that when you're at work, perhaps you don't want to work on Fridays. And what about the system of fines? Do you think it's an effective deterrent? Well, we've just heard Laura say it's not an effective deterrent, really, haven't we? I mean,

you know, is she prepared to break the law? Well, she's weighed up the costs. And for her, it's a hit she's prepared to take. Yeah, I think she, you know, I don't think think the fine is the right way of going about it, isn't it? Perhaps there has to be more consultation with schools, with the holiday companies to look at the whole thing on how we can stop it. Is it an increasing number? What is the data behind it? Are more and more parents doing this? I'm assuming they are and they're prepared to take the hit.

So perhaps we talk to schools about what is a better way of doing it because I personally can't see fines as a way of stopping it. And what about, you mentioned there that there will be caveats, you did it yourself when your kids were quite young. For example, you know, children with special needs or people whose extended families live abroad. Yes, I mean, it's, you know, that's something to be taken into account. I think it is a bit hard and fast, though, isn't it? These are the term times. If you agree to that contract by sending your children to school, it is against the law to do it. So, you know, are you prepared to do that?

I think, yeah, there are still going to be caveats. And I think that's going to be down to headteachers. And I'm not a teacher. I'm sure there are ways that they think might be better than fines and also how we can set caveats and work with parents because everybody everybody wants parents to be happy and everyone wants their children to be happy in schools that's and the children that are left behind they can't afford to go on holidays we need to think about that as well well quite fortuitously Lorraine we have quite a few teachers listening who have messaged us that people are messaging in on this I'm going to read a few out as an ex-teacher I

found it ridiculous that parents would take students out of school and expect us to set work for them or to help them catch up afterwards through extra work or after hours tuition. Not only did children lose out on education, but they expected teachers to do additional work for them. I just heard your first parent and I find the attitude deplorable. Education is not appreciated or valued. The parents' attitude transfers to their children who also then do not value education. Jane in Gosport says,

just imagine being a teacher of a class of 30 infants and having a summer term punctuated by absentees. How can new work be introduced to the whole class? How do absent children catch up? Parents seem so concerned with having their holiday that they ignore the effects that it's having on their young children and their progress. And it's a nightmare for the teachers. I'm just going to play devil's advocate here. I've got lots of friends whose primary school kids are sort of finishing up this week in England. It's sports week. You know, films are being shown. There's a lot of fun activities. I don't know how much studying is actually happening. So, you know, together. It's really significant neurologically, these rituals, end of terms, changing of terms, signing up to new years. So to take that away, while they might not be learning, it's still a really creative time and processes. And I say

the kids left behind are then dealing with that on their own. It's just it isn't fair. And it doesn't feel like a good way to educate your children. It's not school is not just about maths and English. It's about creativity, team sports. It's about having friendship groups. And it's about taking that moment of care to check all children are going to be all right. Are they all going to be all right for the summer holidays, particularly in state schools going through what they're going through at the moment? So I think it's really important the end of term, to be honest. Lorraine Candy speaking to me there now is there a topic or an issue that you would really love to hear on woman's hour that you've never heard discussed before or maybe it's

something you've been dying to get off your chest and you yourself would like to come and tell us about it well now is your chance to make it happen because we've got Listener Week coming up. It's one of my favourite weeks of the year. This is where all the items of the programme are chosen by you. So let us know what you'd like us to discuss. Get in touch in the usual way. It's at BBC Woman's Hour on social media. Email us via our website and you never know, we could be talking about it. Now, what are you reading this summer?

Are there books you intend to tackle but instead find yourself immersed in your favourite genre, romance, crime or something else? Woman's Hour is taking a deep dive into the world of genre fiction, the women who write it and the women who read it. This week we look at historical fiction. Annie Garthwaite's second novel, The King's Mother, tells the story of historical figure Cecily Neville, mother of Edward IV and Richard III. Annie believes Cecily's role in the War of the Roses has been hugely underestimated

by historians and her novel places her firmly at the heart of the action. Essie Fox has written five historical novels and her most recent, The Fascination, is set in the heart of the action. Essie Fox has written five historical novels and her most recent, The Fascination, is set in the world of Victorian theatres and travelling fairs. They both joined Nuala in the studio and Nuala began by asking Annie about Cecily Neville's role in history. Cecily famously says in the book, you know, men fight with swords and we are women, we fight with words. And, you know, Cecily Neville, she's been overlooked by history, but she was the great matriarch of the House of York. She was the only protagonist of the Wars of the Roses to survive from the very beginning to the very end. She was born in the year of Agincourt, 1415, all of that. And she lived into the first decade of

the Tudor era. And for all that time, she was at the absolute centre of political power. And people assume that women, you know, we've been sold a myth by Hollywood and the patriarchal history that women in the Middle Ages had no power, but they wielded tremendous power. They were political animals. And Cecily was the cream of the crop.

But there are, of course, always these arguments blazing about what happened in the War of the crop. But there are of course always these arguments blazing about what happened in the War of the Roses for example that you're tackling. What sense of responsibility do you feel to present the truth of the situation? We are talking about historical fiction so I'm just wondering about that line. Yeah I get a bit Star Trek about history you know don't mess with the timeline. You know, if we know that something has happened in such and such a way at such and such a time, let's not pretend that it didn't. But Hilary Mantel put this very well when she said, you know, history is just the bits that are left in the bottom of the sieve when all of the waters of time have run through. And it's partial and it's incomplete and it's often full of bias. And the great joy of being a novelist is to be able to take those scraps and scripts and put them together and create a story.

And at a time like the Wars of the Roses, which, you know, historians still argue about and fist fight about, it's an absolute gift for a novelist because we can look at what we know and then we can say, well, okay, if we know that this happened, what else is likely to have happened? What is plausible and believable? And that's the great joy of being a historical

novelist, I think. Let us move from the monarchy to perhaps more, let's talk about Victorian times Essie, why are you so fascinated with that era? Yes, fascination is a good word for it, actually. Oh, fascination, yes. I think it's because, first of all, when I was a little girl, it was seeing old black and white films on television,

particularly things like Wuthering Heights, Jane Eyre, Great Expectations, the very old David Lean version, which is so wonderful. And they always stuck in my mind and inspired me when I went to university. I love the Victorian module, the sensation novels, particularly those plot driven twisty turny novels, which I've always been drawn to. And also, I think it's a fascinating era because there was so much technology changing, the discovery of and use of electricity, the telephone later on, you had the industrial revolution. So life was changing at a very fast rate. And that was changing things for women as well. You know, you still had women in middle class and upper class families who were really just waiting to

be married off as it were, and then to carry on having children and doing the same. But lives for other women were changing enormously. You had a lot of movement from the country to the city. People that worked on farms were then working in factories. There was a lot of mobility. And with mobility and also trains, which came along in the Victorian era, you know, so much of life was changing.

So I think it's a very exciting time. How, getting to that accuracy that I was speaking about with Annie there as well, how do you recreate that whole era for your readers? I know you're an avid researcher, which I'm sure both of you are. I think, first of all, researcher, which I'm sure both of you are. I think, first of all, physically, the world we live in, particularly in England, still has an awful lot of the Victorian era. So just walking here today through London, so many Victorian buildings. We aren't that far away really in time.

I know it seems like a long time, but in the scheme of things, you know, clothes are different. Yes, well, I can go to the V&A or I can look up online and research clothing. And that's very, very interesting. You can find out how people spoke because you can actually read reviews. You can look into the newspaper archives. Tell people how they spoke. I thought that was really interesting. Well, I think that many people consider that Victorian people spoke as in Dickens' novels. That's not necessarily the case.

I mean, Dickens, a wonderful writer and a genius, but very much his own style. And if you read somebody else who is writing at the same time, say, Wilkie Collins, you will find a much more natural expression and way of speaking and dialogue. And I think, you know, read the novels at the source of the era and you'll realise there's a great diversity if you read Thomas Hardy, very naturalistic style and basically books about people who aren't so different than we are today. I'm going to come to sex in a minute, but let me turn back to you, Annie.

You said you understood, because we often get the men, right, from history, in the history books when we were growing up, etc. But you said you understood the men much better when you started thinking about women in the court. Explain that for me. Yeah, because the men have controlled

the history of this period and it's the Wars of the Roses. So it's a lot of men running around with swords bashing each other's heads in. And that's where the focus has been. And, you know, I've been interested in this period for the best part of 40 years. And yet it was a long time before I realized that all of the four women that we deal with in The King's Mother, Cecily and the three other women that compete with her, intimately knew each other. And they were connected by family, by alliances and so on.

They were so closely knit together. And historians, you know, you could fill this room with historians. You wouldn't find two of them that would agree about what happened during this period. And it's mystifying. Some things that happen don't make apparent sense. But when you put the women back in the centre of the story and understand what their motivations were and what they were trying to achieve, then the actions of the men make a great deal more sense.

Do you think that women readers are sometimes put off the idea of the genre of historical fiction being about battles and swords. Yes, I do. And I think there's two things. People look at it and think, oh, it's a book about the wars of the world so there's going to be an awful lot of violence and fighting.

I think the other problem with historical fiction is that people hear the word historical fiction and think old-fashioned historical romance, particularly if it's written by a woman. If historical fiction is written by a man, it's going to be battles and fights and seafaring and swords and sandals. And those stereotypes, it's very gendered. And those stereotypes don't serve any of us well. And often you'll say to a reader, oh, I don't really read historical fiction. You say, well, have you read Hilary Mantel? Oh, yes, my goodness.

Have you read Hamnet? Yes. Oh, I loved it. Well, they're all historical fiction. Oh, yeah. So they are. It's how we think about that actual term, historical fiction. Sorry, go ahead, Annie. Certainly with the king's mother, you know, when people say to me,

I don't really know the history. I said, well, forget the history. This is about four mothers and what they are prepared to do for their sons. And so completely relatable as well. Maybe going to some further. Further than you or I might go. But maybe not. Maybe not.

Let us turn back to, you were mentioning stereotypes there. You know, we often think of Victorians, of course, as very buttoned up. But the fascination, your book explores sexuality in the Victorian era, and not as much repression. What was really going on? Well, I think my book is very much, you know, it's dealing with people who were travelling around the country fairgrounds, and who were involved in the theatres. And I do think that, you know, it does seem very buttoned up in some ways in the Victorian era because of religion. But remember, we also had Darwinism going on. So there were people

questioning religion. But I think also, you know, lots of people would be in the theatres. So in my book, In the Fascination, there's a pantomime in Drury Lane Lane and a huge cast of people. And I just felt that obviously not everybody was going to be living in a buttoned up way. And I wanted to show people being different in lots of ways. In the book, you know, some people are physically different. Some people are sexually orientated in a different way. Some people are socially outcast for various reasons. And I wanted to explore all of that and how people who are somewhat on the outside of the accepted society, particularly women who could find a way in that world because they could, you know, they could

actually sell things at the country fairs and make their own money or in the theatre if they were an actor or a performer or a singer, they could have autonomy, which they couldn't have in other parts of life. Essie Fox and Annie Garthwaite. Essie's book The Fascination and Annie's The King's Mother are out now. Now this week, Adele, one of the world's biggest selling music artists, revealed in an interview ahead of her concerts in Munich next month that she'll be stepping back from music temporarily after growing tired of the slog of fame and missing her old life she talks about her tank being empty something

that resonated with many of you to talk about this further i was joined in the studio by author and broadcaster emma g, who did the same. I started by asking her, what exactly did she do? Well, I actually ended up taking a year out, which I know is quite mad, but I had no choice. I was really unwell with burnout. Like, you know, I was diagnosed with extreme chronic burnout, which meant I couldn't do anything. And I had to do the mundane, which I'd never done before because I was obsessed with work for so long. Like what? What were the mundane things that you ended up doing? Oh, I looked after a friend's dog and I spent ages hanging out in the washing and I watched reality TV for the first time.

And this was good for you? It was so good. And it was really topping up those energy levels that had been so depleted, like a sort of bank account being in debt, basically. What were the benefits? I mean, you know know creative nourishment, getting ideas. I actually wrote a book called A Year of Nothing that came out which was about my experience and really I don't know like found out who I was behind the shine of success and all that stuff. Did you feel guilty doing it? I did at first and then I really got into it but yeah of course I thought of course I thought I'd be, you know, we have to be producing at all times. It's how we're brought up and how society makes us feel. And also it's what we've seen our mothers doing because they were the generation who didn't have the choice to do anything apart from just get on with it.

Um, but we are in a very different position. Adele, even more different, very privileged. She can afford to take time off. Um, but what about us mere mortals? What advice would it be? We've got loads of people getting in touch about this. What advice would you give people? Well, I feel really inspired by Adele because, you know, she's at the height of her success.

And actually all she wants to do now is sort of, you know, top herself back up, doing nice things at home. And yeah, I don't know. I just feel like we need to talk more about this in general. How did you talk to your family about it? I was just really honest I just I just said you know I I'm not functioning well but I was a bit embarrassed about admitting it because I think being busy and being on is a sign of health and well-being but actually it can be the opposite sometimes you're like hiding so much under the the cracks that are appearing so yeah it's funny isn't it exactly that right we all sort of feel like we have to say we're really busy and we're just doing stuff rather than just going

well I'm just exhausted yeah exactly I know we're so bad at doing nothing and sorry back to your question it's not about like going on this fancy holiday or doing an eat pray love for a year it's about the smallest moments of like if you put a timer on for 10 minutes and sit on your bedroom floor that 10 minutes really is quite expansive time moves differently when you do nothing and that is what I've taken away from it is just don't feel guilty even the pockets of time you can have will fill you back up and that is what you would advise so it's not the big eat pray love just the small amounts of just doing something little for yourself. Yeah, like the littlest, the better. Like I would, you know, around Christmas time, just look at the Christmas

tree and the lights and like all of this stuff that is around you that is beautiful. Like if you go past, I don't know, some lovely flowers, stop and just look at them. And I really think this is the stuff that can help us because there's a lot of existential angst around at the moment of like, what are we meant to be doing with our lives? And I really think we is the stuff that can help us because there's a lot of existential angst around at the moment of like what are we meant to be doing with our lives and I really think we're going back to the basics and it's making us feel good again. Emma Gannon and her book A Year of Nothing is out now. That's it from me and Weekend Woman's Hour. On Monday, nine months since the conflict escalated in Gaza, we're looking at pregnancy in a war zone. Nuala hears from a mum in Gaza who recently gave birth and also from a midwife trying to deliver care under constant bombing. Do join Nuala for

that and much more. Enjoy the rest of your weekend and the sunshine. Guilt free. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.