Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Olivia Colman, Rosamund Pike, Managing your Energy Levels

Episode Date: July 1, 2023

The Oscar-winning actor Olivia Colman is the patron of the arts charity Tender, having previously played a survivor of domestic violence in the film Tyrannosaur. She speaks to Woman’s Hour alongside Tender CEO Susie McDonald about the work they’re doing to try and prevent domestic violence.Do you breakdown your ‘to do’ list into hours and minutes? What if you broke down your day into how much energy you had instead? We discuss Energy Management Techniques with Lauren Walker, an Occupational Therapist and Charlie Thorne, who was a lawyer before she became burnt out.Baroness Margaret McDonagh, the first female general secretary of the Labour Party, has died aged 61. Her sister Siobhain McDonagh shared her tribute and explained why she's chosen to speak out so soon to push for more research into glioblastoma brain tumours.Rebecca Clancy from the Times reflects on the legacy of the all-female motor racing championship, the W Series.The author Caroline O' Donoghue speaks to us about her new campus novel, The Rachel Incident. She talks about writing sex, gay best friends and what happens when messing about in your 20s gets very serious indeed.The much acclaimed actor Rosamund Pike discusses playing a woman who fakes her own death in a BBC audio adaptation of the book People Who Knew Me.Presented by Hayley Hassall Produced by Lucy Wai Edited by Richard Hooper

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, where we bring you the best bits from the week just gone. Coming up, Oscar-nominated actor Rosamund Pike discusses her new role in a BBC audio drama and the joys of voice acting. Obviously, if it was a film adaptation, we would never get the internal monologue and I could never play the girl in her 20s. So, you know, that's a lovely freedom. But I

can make my voice sound like it's in its 20s, but I can't, you know, unfortunately do that with my face. The author Caroline O'Donoghue on writing openly about sex and identity in her new novel. And are you feeling frazzled after a busy week? Well, we've all heard of time management, but what about energy management? Stay tuned as we discuss the best ways to manage your energy levels. But first, how do you talk to young children about domestic violence and sexual assault? Well, the arts charity Tender aims to introduce these topics through drama workshops, which they say allow young children and teenagers to rehearse for real-life scenarios

and develop an awareness that will serve them throughout their lives. Well, award-winning actress Olivia Colman is the patron of the charity, which is celebrating its 20th anniversary. Olivia joined me alongside the CEO, Susie MacDonald, to talk about the work they're doing and having previously portrayed a survivor of domestic violence in the film Tyrannosaur in 2011, I asked Olivia if playing the role of Hannah in that film had impacted her. It did. I think prior to that, I would have asked all the same questions,

like, why don't they leave? But misunderstanding the threat. So I did some research through Refuge incredible charity helping women and children who are survivors of domestic violence and through that I think I got slightly obsessed with what why why is this still happening why is there not more being done and those charities are invaluable at that end of the scale and then it was a mutual friend of ours Susie and mine who said my friend Susie, you should meet her. I think you might be interested in what she does.

And we met, fell in love. And what Susie does is, my husband likens it to the film Minority Report. So you go before things happen, you try to fix it before it's broken. And this is what Susie does and her incredible team. It was a no-brainer for me. I'm very, very passionate about it and I can't believe it's not an absolute must for every single child in every single school, but we're working on it. I can see that and obviously you mentioned Refuge there.

There are so many charities that do things to help women, mostly women, after this situation has happened, but to pre-empt it and get in there first, it seems like, how has that not happened already? Can you imagine if it doesn't happen? Did you speak to survivors as part of your research? No, I actually, I remember when I went to refuge, they gave me case studies that were so shocking. If you put it on a film, you wouldn't believe it.

And so upsetting. And I went, I don't think I'd be any help talking to a survivor. That's not what they need, some weepy actress turning up. So I just did a lot of research through the women who help the other women and through the case studies and then a big dollop of imagination. I did a training day with Susie and her team, which I will never forget. It was incredible. And you think, I think I've got a handle on this. I think I know. But endless things come up during the day and you go, oh yeah, that is, yes, I can see that now what what do you mean like what well there are lots of things like that idea of what we call commonly held beliefs about the issue so people might say if

I was in that situation I would just leave you know if my partner hit me or was cruel to me I would just leave I wouldn't put up with it. But of course, those relationships start somewhere where there is love and there's trust and there's some affection. And therefore, when the first instance of abuse or violence or unkindness happens, people may go, oh, maybe that was my fault. Maybe, yeah, maybe it's a one off and they've apologised and I was being a bit grumpy that day. So maybe it's my fault. Maybe it's a one-off and they've apologised and I was being a bit grumpy that day, so maybe it's my fault. So there's a kind of process of taking responsibility that victims will often go through. And it's really important for us, therefore, to say

anybody experiencing abuse, it's not their fault. And these workshops do that, do they? Can you talk me through how they work and how the children get involved in those scenarios? So our kind of normal programme is going into a school and that might be a primary school or a secondary school. We work over a two-day kind of intensive project with a group of say 30 children, children or young people. So that's usually just a class, a mainstream class and in that class therefore there will be children who the school are aware have got some problems, perhaps at home. There will be children who are really into drama and really loving the idea of participating and talking. There'll be children who like to just observe and sit back a little bit. And then there will be some that the school hasn't yet spotted, may be quite vulnerable and might be having some problems either at home or in their own relationships.

So we're gentle and we're playful and we set up at the beginning of the first day the opportunity to create a space where the young people can feel really safe to play. So we'll do lots of drama games and all of the things that we're doing is about how you navigate relationships. So in a primary school, we're talking about friendships. We're talking about how do you feel about your friend when they maybe say an unkind thing to you? Is that the kind of behavior that you want in a friendship? So the children are being able to find the language to navigate how they have positive interactions and also to learn to have the voice to be able to say, I'm not comfortable with what you're doing to me

and actually it's my right to be able to say, please stop it and to choose friendship groups and friends that make them happy. And then as you go into secondary school, those skills and that language can then inform how they have more intimate and romantic relationships. So you do obviously start at such a really young age. Are you not worried that you could be introducing a concept that they had no idea about or a trauma that they didn't need to ever witness to children who wouldn't have otherwise known about it? No,

I think because it's age appropriate. So as Susie it's about friendships so if you're like a little group of three can be tricky for for small kids and how do you feel when those two whisper together feel sad and then those two girls go I didn't realize that made you feel sad so all of this just recognizing your behavior has an impact on other people so it's something that all children will recognize they've all had difficulties within friendships or I wanted to play football and they didn't want me to play. It's not at all introducing something which is horrific to them. It's a gentle, beautiful easing in of how to be kind and thoughtful and that your actions have implications. And then it gears up as the kids get older. And I think when we first began 20 years ago, in a way, we were focusing on preventing people becoming victims. But actually, what we're also doing is preventing people from becoming perpetrators. So it's not just about saying you have a right to your partner or your friendship group, your friends being kind and respectful to you. You have a responsibility to behave in that way towards other people. Well, that was one of the things I was going to ask, because we know that predominantly

victims of domestic abuse are women. But obviously, you don't want to alienate the boys in these workshops and the men. So how do you include them and not create them as the perpetrators? Well, because they're taking part. And what's beautiful about it being drama is they can go, OK, well, it's not me. I can pretend to be someone else and so if they have experienced anything in their lives they don't have to share it with everybody they can do it through pretending to be someone else or enacting how it might be for someone else so these boys get to see the impact on the girls the impact on other boys and we did the tender awards last night but there was a lovely quote from this

little boy maybe 10 or 12 I can't remember saying this has made me want to learn to be a good boy and a good man to women and girls it has an incredibly positive impact and Olivia you have two sons yourself is this something you talk to them about you think it's important to raise this issue that you feel so deeply about absolutely yeah it should be a dinner table conversation and how do you do that as a mum of a son as well how do you do that without making them feel alienated by it or scared of it gosh I mean you know I think particularly when my boys were younger and playing you know it's just make sure you're kind or did they want to play or ask them to play or if they didn't ask you to play, how did that make you feel?

Just talking about how you feel about things. And when they start to embark on sort of more grown-up relationships, the word consent is always brought up. Make sure it's equal. Make sure there's no alcohol involved. Make sure you always feel like you're doing the right thing and make sure you are kind to each other, you are equal and you are considerate. And those conversations come up a lot in our house so yeah and i i think boys

can be sort of boxed into a sort of category of behaviors that feel that that's just how boys are so this sort of notion of it's just boys being boys um this sort of the term toxic masculinity and probably why you know there are certain social media influencers who who can kind of tap into the gap in that box where boys see a version of what's expected of them to be some of them probably do like that idea but many many boys are thinking well I want to have healthy respectful relationships but I'm not sure I've got the language or the tools to be able to do that and how will I be perceived by my peers if I'm kind and tender will I get bullied or laughed at so it's finding spaces where boys aren't boxed into you're either a perpetrator or you're a woman you know there's so many other things they can be on this program we talk a lot about the social

media influences towards especially boys like Andrew Tate or the fact that there's more prevalence of hardcore porn available as a parent and running this charity. Is that something that you've come across or it worries you about our future generations? My boys are very gentle boys and hooray and they have a dad who's an incredible role model, who's thoughtful, kind, heroic, gentle man. Porn also should be a dinner table topic, which I know is difficult for many people. But I actually had a friend who said something great about this. She said to her kids, have you seen Fast and Furious? Would you drive like that on a road? And then she sort of, which I thought, that's genius. The sex you might encounter is not the sort of sex that people want to have

and it's not normal and everyday and loving. And don't imagine for a moment that's what you have to do. That is not where to learn about sex from. And what has been the reaction from schools and parents about the workshops you're doing? It's been universally incredible. And there was one comment I remembered from previous awards because that's when you get to see how it's gone that year one school in South London said they had a 60% drop in negative behaviours recorded in the school after their workshop and I kind of want to tell

everybody that you see it really works and so many letters a letter from a mum to you saying thank you I got my daughter back Because she got into a group of people and she was sort of felt out of her depth. She became angry and withdrawn. She realised they're not serving me as friends. I don't need to be here. She had the courage to go, I don't want that. And I just don't know why we're having to still try and,

you know, just implement it. It has to happen. It has to, the knock-on effect in so many parts of your life. If you know that you're worthy of love, that you can be loved, that you can love other people, I mean, your life becomes a much clearer path if you can experience those feelings. And of course, our listeners will be curious. What projects have you got coming up next? What can we see you in? Well, I haven't started filming yet, but the next thing is Paddington 3, which has just been announced.

I've been desperate to tell everybody. I'm so excited. That is very exciting news. I'm just excited to see the band sing Welcome to London and the curly houses. Yeah, the curly houses. Yeah, that's going to be absolutely brilliant. Well done. We can't wait to see that.

And when will that be expected to be out? Oh, not for a very long time. A hundred years. Oh, and Wonka. Wonka is coming out. That'll be a Christmas. That was Olivia years oh and wonka wonka is coming out that'll be a christmas that was olivia coleman and suzy mcdonald now do you break down your to-do list into hours and minutes what if you break down your day into how much energy you used instead well for years people with conditions like me or chronic fatigue syndrome have used energy management techniques

to help them decide what tasks they might be able to accomplish in a day. So could we learn a thing or two by using the techniques even if we don't have extreme fatigue? Well to find out Nuala caught up earlier this week with Lauren Walker an occupational therapist and Charlie Thorne who was a city lawyer before she became burnt out. She has since started trying to manage her energy rather than her time. Nuala began by asking Lauren what people can learn from energy management techniques. Well there's lots of common sense tips actually and just to give a bit of context I work for the Royal College of Occupational Therapists. I am an occupational therapist myself and we typically work with people who have health conditions and disabilities that impact their ability to live

their lives in the way that they want to. And energy management is a technique that we will typically use with people who have fatigue, as you've mentioned, as a result of an illness or as a long-term health condition because we know that sense of exhaustion both physical and mental exhaustion can really massively impact our ability to do the things that we need and want to within a day so for us an occupation isn't just what we do for a living it's literally everything that gives us meaning during the course of a day. Okay so what would my listener do how would you help somebody manage their energy? Well we talk about quite often the three P's principle, that being pacing, planning and prioritising. And that's ways of structuring your day, structuring your time so

that you're making the most of the energy that you have available. So kind of being conscious of the different types of demands that different tasks put on us. And that's not just physical energy. Our brains use a lot of energy as well. So let's say we have to do, I don't know, heavier admin work, tax returns, something like that. But that uses the same sort of energy as perhaps trying to work out, I don't know, some tricky scheduling, for example, for a work rota. Is that the same sort of energy being used? It can be. And it's quite a subtle art, if I say. I would say it's probably more of an art than a science. And sometimes there's a certain amount of trial and error in terms of working out what drains your energy and what gives you energy.

What we know through energy management is actually that variety is really helpful and so is rest. And again, rest is quite subjective. Different people will find different things restful. But actually, if you have got an activity that's draining for any types of reasons, then building in rest before and after or even during that task, before you reach that point of exhaustion can be really, really helpful. So really, I think what I'm hearing, Lauren, is that each person will have their own energy drains or energy givers. So maybe for somebody, it's quite exciting to do tax returns. I've yet to meet that person. But yes, you're quite right. And again, that's why as occupational

therapists, we will work with people individually to, again, understand what is draining for them and what is energising for them. So it's not about demonising all activity. It's not saying you just have to sit in a chair all day, the reverse but it's about being really conscious and really intentional about what what brings you joy and giving yourself permission to prioritize those energy giving activities here's a few so many comments coming in on this uh sarah i work with a fabulous woman who has helped me manage my energy levels and it's through decluttering every area of my life work relationships old thinking patterns and of course my home here's another one from Carol Anne. Every Friday is my white space in the diary. I won't even book a coffee with a friend so I can wake up and know there is nothing in the diary that day. I don't have to be anywhere

and I'm not tied to anything. It's hugely liberating and like a mind spa. I spend the day creatively pottering and doing whatever takes my fancy. As I am a life coach, I recommend all my clients build in white space time. Let me turn to Charlie. I feel you didn't have white space time in your life previously. You became burnt out. Tell us a little bit about what happened to you and welcome. Yes. So I was a corporate lawyer in the city in London for the last 10 years.

And it's a very high stress environment. And I was chronically stressed without really understanding that that's what was happening to me. I think that we live in a society and a culture where stress and even burnout are sometimes referred to as things to wear as a badge of honour. Or especially in the city, there's a lot of hustle and bustle and it's it's who's doing what when how quickly what are you achieving and you lose sight of the fact that stress chronically can be really bad for you and I worked that out the hard way by burning out last year in the summer when I just I couldn't get out of bed one day after a particularly stressful week and went on sick leave and I never returned to work and I won't do.

I have officially, occupationally burned out of being a lawyer. Yeah, and you said you couldn't get out of bed that day. How long did the feeling last or how would you describe being burnt out? Because I think it's thrown's thrown around but I mean you know as people say at the end of the day but this is this is real yes no it's very very real um the the things that I missed that would have given me an indication of what I was experiencing were things like um chronic cynicism and negativity about not just work, but everything. A sense of poor mental health without really having a reason that I could pinpoint. Reduced efficacy at work. So

even things that I would historically have found quite easy, I was beginning to find really difficult. And my motivation was down. I generally just was very lackluster and of course I had no energy so that day when I when I got out of bed um sorry where I couldn't get out of bed was really my body pushing back after years of cyclical burnout um taking its toll and the specifics for me um were slightly different in that I also found out subsequently that I'm autistic which explains my particular susceptibility to going over and above my stress threshold as well. Gosh you explain it so well. You're nodding, nodding, nodding Lauren. Yeah absolutely and unfortunately what Charlie's described is really very common and I think especially with Charlie being someone who is autistic,

we know that sometimes people who are neurodivergent, that kind of the emotional demands and the social demands of situations can put a lot of pressure on their energy and that can be really draining in a way that perhaps neurotypical people don't experience. Jay got in touch and says, I've had ME, fibromyalgia for over 20 years

and also long COVID since February 2021. Previously full of energy, very fit, never tired. Luckily, I adapted and accepted my new life and from the beginning, listened to my body

and rested regularly. Limited energy has made me prioritise things which nurture me and neglect tasks such as keeping house clean, which I only do after the necessary rest and positive experiences. Right on, Jay. Here's another one from Amanda.

She says, I've just come back from my GP where I have had a blood test. Like many women in their late 40s and early 50s, I feel the rug has been pulled out from under me in terms of energy. I have a busy, irresponsible job, three children. And in the last couple of years, I've had to take two or three days off just to sleep as I'm totally exhausted. I feel like I'm on a treadmill with less and less in reserve. Giving women menopause leave a couple of days a year could make a real difference

to me. What would you say to Amanda, Lauren? I think, you know, we all live increasingly busy lives. We all have an awful lot on our plate, whether or not that's related to a medical condition or not. And I think, as Charlie mentioned, this idea of rest is something that's quite often demonised in society. And I think it's something that we absolutely have to claim back and be unapologetic about taking that time to rest, because ultimately it will help us to do

more of the things that we love. And also the previous point about prioritising the things that bring you joy and maybe leaving the housework, I would absolutely applaud that as well. So making sure that we do make time for the things that matter most to us. And it's also, I think, when you talk about that, the energy drains or the energy givers to figure out which is which. Do most people, people are different, right? Whether they have more energy in the morning or the afternoon. Yeah and it can fluctuate something we recommend in energy management is to use a diary just to record at the end of the end of the day what you've been doing and how it's made you feel as well so you can quite quickly begin to observe patterns about what's what's bringing you energy and what's sapping it a little bit as well. Charlie how are you feeling now? I'm still recovering a year on but I'm a lot better. That was Charlie Thorne and Lauren Walker. And if you want to find

out more about managing your energy levels, you can head to the Woman's Hour website to read our new article full of tips and advice. Our next guest, Caroline O'Donoghue, has written six novels. First, two for adults and then a young adult trilogy, All Our Hidden Gifts. Her new novel is The Rachel Incident. Now, Rachel is looking back on her time in Cork in Ireland in 2010. She's in her early 20s, at university, in love with her professor, working in a bookshop, trying to work out who she is, and then she meets her soulmate. Krupa spoke to Caroline earlier this week

and began by asking her to describe the book. It's a flashback novel, really, so it's told from the perspective of Rachel, who's in her mid-thirties in the present day, who has a run-in from somebody from her old college back in UCC in Cork, and who says to her, do you know what's happening with Dr. Byrne, our old English professor? And then the thought that Rachel has that plunges her back into the past is, how can I tell this person that despite popular myth around Cork at the time, that I was not sleeping with Dr. Byrne and so it's kind of you know it's there's lots of novels about what happens when you sleep with your English professor this is about what happens when they don't sleep with you and they sleep with your best friend

instead and in that case this is James Devlin her best mate who when she meets him uh during a Christmas temp shift at a bookshop but they're both working uh he's in the closet he's um you know he just he's effervescent and wonderful and charismatic and magical but you know very clear to everybody around him like yeah he's he's obviously gay and he's no no no very much straight and they have the first kind of argument about that fact and And then she sort of, you know, they move in together very quickly. They fall deeply in love. And the whole novel is about their mutual kind of burgeoning sexualities and what they do with that and what they do with the shame around that too. There has been an enormous amount of novels in the last few years and, you know, TV shows and all that about the power of female friendship.

And far be it for me to about the power of female friendship and and far be it for me to underestimate the power of female friendship but i also think that we are used to seeing relationships between gay men and straight women as being they're depicted very frequently in culture but not with a great deal of depth um and it's always like a very like oh you know he's they're sort of accessories to one another and they'll both ditch each other as soon as the man comes along or whatever. And this, you know, relationship, I think, is far more worth examining than than it is before, because I think crucially, sorry, I think crucially, straight women have to offer a lot of faces to the world that are masks. You know, it's we have to when we to our boyfriends or our love interests, we have to offer a lot of faces to the world that are masks. You know, we have to, to our boyfriends or our love interests, we have to be a certain

kind of properness. We can't find ourselves too interesting. We can't find ourselves too beautiful. We have to wait to be called that or declared that. And, you know, we can't be too sort of self-satisfied that way or whatever. With gay men, they have to present a face to the world that is, oh, I know I'm gay, but I'm not that kind of gay man, for their own safety.

And sometimes because they feel like they have to uphold a kind of a cultural idea of, OK, I'm bit camp, but I'm not this camp kind of thing. Well, you bring those two personalities together really nicely. The third central character is Dr. Byrne, as you mentioned. I don't want to give away too much. But there is this power imbalance at play there. And there's lots to be said about a young person who is slightly lost and becoming emotionally attached to an older person who isn't their parent.

Yeah, I think it's huge. I think it's a huge moment. And perhaps everybody has it when you first make a friend who you feel like is really of your parents' generation, but they're your friend, you know. And it's a great tradition, sort of the campus novel, you know, in literature. And always there has to be kind of an English professor. It's always an English professor who's kind of a little bit too involved with their, you know, their students' lives, whether it's conversations with friends with Sally Rooney or The Secret History by Donna Tartt or even Brideshead Revisited or, you know, it's a big tradition. I think a lot of that is to do, those conversations are always about younger generations who are in flux and who are looking

ahead to their adult lives and wondering what kind of life they can aim for, what feels out of reach and clinging on to, I think the professor exists as like a stage before parenthood that feels tangible and real and touchable. And sadly, far too many of them, it becomes far too touchable. Caroline, this book is incredibly open. And when I say open, it's open about identity, about money, but also about sex. Rachel talks openly throughout the book about how much she enjoys sex, who she enjoys sex with, the best sex she's had or otherwise.

And that felt refreshing to read almost. Oh, I'm so glad that you thought that. That's my takeaway. Well, what I love about Rachel is, you know, she's six foot tall. She's a grand horse of a girl. Like she's a big, big, she's a big girl. And, you know, this year that we're meeting her, she's probably, my vision of her in my head is that she's kind of got a bit of a beer belly. She's bursting out of her clothes a little bit.

You know, her hair is never cut and probably never washed. Her clothes don't really fit her properly. And she is having the most passionate sex with her life with the man who's from Derry, a head shorter than her and probably has a shower once a week. And I think that's how sex should look and feel on the page. I remember when I was that age, that's how it sort of looked and felt for me. And it's joyful. And I feel like we are, you know what? I saw that new film with Jennifer Lawrence in it called No Hard Feelings.

And in that film, it's comedy, it's sex comedy. She goes full frontal and it's completely played for laughs. And I remember I wanted to clap because even though it's only a kind of an average movie, I was like, I'm so sick of female nudity and female desire and sex as being played for something for high drama. I feel like the whole generation of creators who have forgotten that sex is primarily had for fun. Like, that's why we do it. Well, you drive that message home well and clear in this book. Carolyn, I know you take issue with the idea that women's fiction needs to be based on either the author or another true life experience. And in this case, it's not entirely drawn

from your own life, but just expand on that a bit more. Why irks so much? It doesn't irk. I think this novel quite joyfully, I mean, if you see the front cover of it and you've seen a picture of my face also, you'll think, is that her? You know, it's interesting. I think novels always play with truth. And I think over the last few years, we've kind of memorised this pat line, which is like,

oh, you know, don't assume that novels are drawn from someone's life. And you shouldn't assume that, but also don't discount that some wonderful novels, for example, The Secret History by Donna Tartt, are drawn from elements of real life. And that is a real skill to take that. So in my case, I really did grow up in Cork. I really did meet my best friend who was in the closet at the time, working in retail during a Christmas shift. And absolutely everything else is made up. But what's real is the emotional and truth and how we lived and the gigs we went to and that kind of stuff. I wanted to capture that joy and put it on the page.

And that felt important to me. And, you know, why not? That was the author Caroline O'Donoghue. Still to come on the programme, Hollywood actor Rosamund Pike reveals how her love of audio began with eavesdropping on phone conversations as a child. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. Just subscribe to The Daily Podcast for free on BBC Sounds. Last week, Siobhan McDonagh, Labour MP for Mitcham & Morden in South London, announced the death of her dearly loved sister, Margaret McDonagh.

Baroness McDonagh of Mitcham and Morden, as Margaret became, was a key figure in the Labour Party under Tony Blair's leadership and played a central role in the 1997 and 2001 Labour general election victories. But tributes have come from across the party divide. Conservative peer Daniel Finkelstein, part of the team that lost to Labour, says we should pause and listen because Margaret McDonagh was excellent. She was one of this country's great political organisers, certainly one of the greatest in the past 40 years.

Margaret McDonagh was only 61 when glioblastoma, a type of brain tumour, caused her death. Her sister Siobhan believes the NHS abandoned her and abandons others like her, who are diagnosed with glioblastoma every year. I spoke to her on Thursday and began by asking how she feels at this time. I'm OK. It's a bit unreal just at the moment because obviously we're organising the funeral. And I'm very lucky. I've got lots of great friends who come round every night and cook me a meal and we have a glass of wine.

I know that in comparison to a lot of people in similar situations, I'm very fortunate. But it's also incredibly hard for you. I can see you tearing up as we're speaking. But I'm also aware that listeners won't necessarily have heard of all the work that your sister did because largely it was behind the scenes, wasn't it? Could you explain to me about her job and why you think she was the most successful Labour general secretary in history? Right. Margaret wasn't really interested in the glory or the front stage. She very much wanted to be behind the stage. She wanted to run to organise successful elections. She joined the Labour Party at 17.

Her first experience of a general election was in 1979, obviously, which saw Labour lose and Mrs Thatcher come to power. in the mid 80s so she could come back to live with me so we could fight the election in 87 when I first became the candidate in Mitcham and Morton. That must have been such a special time for you I know how difficult it must be talking about that because you were together and you were together for so much of your careers and your life weren't you in fact you lived together until the end. Yeah and a general secretary we always used to joke that mum or dad would say, oh, Margaret, she's the secretary to some general. General Secretary of the Labour Party is like head of the paid staff, like the chief civil servant or a chief executive or maybe a chief operating officer of a company. So while Tony Blair was the leader of the party, or Keir Starmer now, she would run the organisation. And her biggest ambition was to organise

two consecutive general elections, which led to full-term Labour governments. So that would mean eight or ten years. And it was so extraordinary because it's the only time in British history that it has ever happened. And she did that. And she did it.

She was the force behind that. Absolutely remarkable. And I know you wanted to speak about this now, so soon after your sister has died, because you want to use this time to push for change and the differences she wanted to make. Can you tell me a bit about what you think your sister would have wanted now? Well, I know that I will never be more powerful

on the issue of glioblastoma brain tumours than I am now. And there is no infrastructure. There has been no improvement in this treatment for these tumours since in the last 30 years and no improvement in outcomes. 3,200 people will be diagnosed this year with a glioblastoma. And that's the lucky ones who do actually get to diagnosis before they die. They will have varying levels of life expectancy, but on average, it's nine months. After the death of the great Tessa Jowell, the government announced 40 million for research.

It has only managed to spend 15 because there are simply no bids, because there's nobody out there doing this work. At the moment, when you become an oncologist, a kind of senior doctor in cancer care, you don't have to do any studies on brain tumours. And the pharmaceutical companies clearly concentrate on the big cancers, those that involve the big numbers. So there is no real incentive for them to do work in this area.

So if there's no training, no doctors, no financial incentive, nothing is happening. And nobody is going to have an improved life expectancy and certainly not a cure. And I know you said in the House of Commons debate on brain tumour research earlier this year that you feel Margaret was abandoned by the NHS and you felt that others with the same diagnosis were too. What did you mean by that? Well, the treatment of glioblastoma,

the care pathway, if you like, is eight weeks of radiotherapy followed by as much chemotherapy as you're able to take. Now, in Margaret's case, she wasn't able to take very much of it. Her kidneys gave way. At that point, there is nothing available on the NHS. There are hardly any drug trials. So at that point, you are left on your own. Do you take your loved one home to die? Or do you attempt to see if there's any other sort of treatment anywhere in the world? And that requires money. And for lots of people, they're not going to have those funds. And I think most people would think, and certainly my mum who came over in 1947 from Ireland to train as that first generation of nurses, would expect that the NHS would do a better job. Well we told the

Department of Health and Social Care that you will be talking to us today about the need for more research and to get better treatment and they gave us this response. They've said our condolences go out to Baroness McDonagh's family and friends. Brain cancer can be a devastating disease which is why we've specifically allocated 40 million for research in this area on top of the 1 billion pounds a year for wider health research we've invested in every suitable application made and the finding and the funding will continue to be available for further studies to develop new treatments and therapies for brain tumours to encourage further successful applications we are investing in infrastructure workshops for research training for clinicians

so they do say they're allocating a quarter of the money and specially set aside to boost brain cancer research and some would say that is reasonable progress what do you say to that there is a reason why they haven't been able to spend that money because it was their target to spend it before now and that is because there is no infrastructure. If you're not training the oncologists, if you're not getting the people there who like my sister's oncologist, Paul Mulholland at UCLH, was absolutely driven to find a cure.

If you haven't got that army of people, how do you get the bids to claim the money? So really, you know, Will Quince, who is the minister who's responsible for this area of policy, I challenged him. He's standing down at the next election. He has a year, 18 months. He can make a difference if he wants, but he has to stand up to the establishment. He has to stand up to the Royal College of Physicians and say, no, there should be proper training in brain tumours and glioblastoma for oncologists. He's got to say to the pharmaceutical companies,

you get your licences for the big tumour drugs, try them on brain tumours. Because without trying what's there, we are not going to get a cure in the next 50 years, the next 60 years, the next century. Your tweet on Saturday was so emotional when you announced your sister's death. It was a very moving expression of profound sibling love, actually. You said, I love her with all my heart. And I know you've always lived together. Can you describe your relationship and what she meant to you? I suppose you live your life and you expect that other people live the same sort of life. So it is not unusual or extraordinary to me. You know, we were brought

up in an Irish working class family and family came first and responsibility to your family came first. So in our house, we had a whole stream of aunts and uncles down on their luck, mental health problems, problems with drink, because that is a feature of kind of those generations, or just physically unwell. So we just saw from our mum and dad that you have a responsibility for one another. They had an amazing work ethic. You know, if you saw my dad, age 70, going out to work on the buildings and being blue with cold, you would completely

understand why Margaret is as driven as she is. You know, we were confident, difficult women because we were brought up with great confidence, support and love. That was Siobhan McDonagh, Labour MP for Mitcham and Morden. Her words have struck a chord with many listeners sharing their thoughts and experiences. Naomi has written in to say, listening to this, it sounds the same as my late husband who died at home 10 years ago of glioblastoma. It's dreadful that no advances have been made since then. Another listener said, my husband is 60 and has stage 4 diagnosis of glioblastoma. I agree that it seems to be a cancer that has been left behind in terms of research,

but thank you for giving this airtime. It's a very cruel disease and my condolences go to Siobhan. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and remember you can contact the Woman's Hour inbox anytime via our website. Now you may have heard the news that the all-female motor racing championship, the W Series, has gone into administration. The W Series saw three seasons of racing where it showcased the talents of racers such as three-time champion Jamie Chadwick, Alice Powell and Sarah Moore. So what happened and what is its legacy? Well, to discuss, Creeper was joined earlier this week by Rebecca Clancy, motor racing correspondent at The Times and Sunday Times. She began by asking her what the W Series was. It was the first ever all-female racing series.

Its sole aim really was to get a woman into Formula One. There hasn't been a woman in Formula One since Leila Lombardi in 1976. People may be familiar with Susie Wolfe who took part in a couple of practice sessions but never been an actual racing driver competing on the Sunday. So W Series was created. It was the brainchild of Catherine

Bonmure, the founder and CEO. And she spent three years setting it up. And it, quite frankly, gave very talented young women a lifeline into motor racing. They had been very successful in their go-karting days in the lower series and they had found that the funding had dried up. Motor racing is incredibly expensive. To put it into context, if you're in Formula 3 or Formula 2, the category is just below Formula 1, you would have to bring about half a million pounds to race. So it's not exactly viable for everyone, shall we say. And the women who I spoke to in W Series they just couldn't get the sponsorship couldn't get the funding and had to go elsewhere and you mentioned there Alice Powell a very very good driver she was actually went to work for her dad's plumbing company and I remember speaking

to her when she got the call up to W Series and the day before she got the call up she was cleaning out urinals and now w series has given her a whole new life and anyone who watches formula one probably familiar with her now on channel four and she's done stuff for five live um and so it it's been absolutely brilliant but it's it was the first all-female uh and i think i think you mentioned there about legacy and i know we'll come on to it but um it's uh it was absolutely trailblazing I don't and I don't think that's um too much to say yeah I mean what I'm hearing from you is that sponsorship has been a key struggle for these women for the series why it's a really

tricky one because you would think that getting behind a young talented female would actually be great for a company but they they've been a bit more reserved, maybe a bit more conservative and gone down the, let's say, more traditional route. Formula One, motor racing in general is still very much a boys club. I mean, I know from my side, I'm still the only woman who does my job on Fleet Street. I'm the first and only. It doesn't feel particularly accessible to women. And as I said, there hasn't been a female racer in Formula One since 1976. Perhaps companies felt it was too much of a gamble. But the women, you know, back in the day, Alice Powell was beating the boys who have now gone on to race in Formula One.

So you can't argue it wasn't on talent, but perhaps companies just thought it was too risky. This case that you make about not having an F1 racer, a female racer, since 1976. I mean, why is that? Surely there's the talent, there are women who want to race. I think it's twofold. There just aren't that many women who are, or young girls, I should say, you know, you have to get in quite early these days and go karting and work your way up through the series. And there just aren't that many, I guess, because there aren't that many role models, perhaps they didn't know that it was a viable option for them. And then those who did make it and were becoming successful in those lower categories just simply couldn't afford it.

And I mentioned earlier about Susie Wolfe. She was driving for, she was a test driver and reserve driver for Williams. But even she couldn't quite crack it. She did a couple of practice sessions over a race weekend, but even she couldn't get a drive. The thing with Formula One is it's a bit, it's always been this way. And so that's how it is sort of thing. And I think that's where the W Series has been so so important because as I said their initial goal was to get a driver into Formula One but I think what quickly happened as the 2019 the inaugural season got underway was actually this feeling that actually Formula

One isn't the be all and end all there are other fantastic racing series available and what we've now seen is okay there still isn't a woman in Formula One. There were probably five, eight years away from that at the earliest. But we've seen the likes of Jamie Chadwick, who you mentioned at the start, she won all three seasons. She's now over in America having a very successful racing career. We've seen others go into the World Endurance endurance championship. And so I think the metric of success that W Series had did change. And I think that's really important to understand as well, because no, there isn't a woman in Formula One as it stands. But I don't think just because the W Series has gone into administration that we should consider it a failure. I mean, I understand that F1 are also launching an all-female series,

the F1 Academy, as I understand it. I mean, how significant is that going to be for the sport? Huge, actually. And I think one thing to note with the W Series as well is that while it went into administration, it really struggled with funding and getting the money in. What it offered to the female racers wasn't just a lifeline back into racing the reason it was so attractive was because it paid for everything so I've already mentioned the money earlier and how prohibitive that is W Series paid for everything so you didn't need to bring any money in the F1 academy any woman who enters they have to bring half the costs and obviously with the likes of Formula One behind it, a huge financial powerhouse, you know, the sport itself is worth probably in the region of about $20 billion. So it won't have the same financial issues. And I think the F1 Academy is actually

part of the W Series legacy, because maybe F1 would have acted at some point. But I think perhaps their hand was forced when they saw the success of W Series. They saw how brilliant it was. I was in Brands Hatch for the finale of the inaugural season back in 2019, and it was a sellout. And there were young girls, young boys, all running up to the drivers, getting the autographs. It was a great family event. It was extremely popular. And that was just after one series.

And I think then the second season, they were on the undercard of F1 races. So then they had more eyeballs. They were attracting more and more attention. It was becoming more popular. The drivers were becoming stars. And I think it forced F1's hand, really. That was Krupa speaking to Rebecca Clancy.

Rosamund Pike made her film breakthrough as a Bond girl in Die Another Day and followed that with Pride and Prejudice, Made in Dagenham, Jack Reacher and A Private War to name just a few. She was Oscar nominated for Gone Girl and won a Golden Globe for I Care A Lot. Recently she's won an award for Best Female Narrator for her narration of the first book in the Wheel of Time novels by Robert Jordan. And she's currently playing the role of Connie, a woman who fakes her own death in a BBC audio adaptation of the book People Who Knew Me.

Nuala spoke to her earlier this week and began by asking her what attracted her to the role. I mean, as soon as I knew the premise, the idea that a woman would use the national tragedy of 9-11 to fake her own death and escape a lie, a web of lies that she's already implicated in, because she's having an extramarital affair and she is at work in the building of the Twin Towers, so is her lover. And on that morning, she realizes with horror as she lies in bed in her lover's apartment that everybody who knew her or knows her will assume that she was at work and will have been killed in the tragedy, and she sees an opportunity to run away,

and that means leaving a husband who will believe she's dead, leaving parents, parents-in-law, all of that. And it came to light that people believe that there are at least sort of five or six people who have done this, who did this. And the idea is obviously haunting and compelling. And I've always been interested in how lies seem like an easy way out of something, but actually the way they gather energy and momentum, you just get trapped in a deeper and deeper web of lies. And so that's Connie. So Connie, who's escaped New York, living in LA in Topanga Canyon

with the baby that she was pregnant with at the time of the tragedy, who's now 14. And we flip back and forth. It is immersive, brilliant sound design. And at times it feels like I'm up close and personal. You know, in public radio in the States, they often call these driveway moments that you just can't leave. And that's what this whole podcast is in 15 minute episodes. You can't be doing anything else. You need to sit down and you need to listen

or walk and listen. How did you create that? What is it like to be an actor making that? I think I read that you have mics on headbands. Well, Daniela Isaacs, who's an actress herself

and a writer and a director, brilliant woman, who adapted the novel, she came up with this idea that she wanted the show to feel like you were uncomfortably eavesdropping on conversations that you really shouldn't have access to and to get that intimacy and also feel the awkwardness. I know she went back over our edits and asked the editor

to leave in awkward pauses or the feeling that a character takes a breath and can't speak or you feel the choking of a thought before someone utters it. So we wore these very unattractive headbands on our heads with a little radio mic attached to it and a wire going through our clothes into a pocket. So it meant we were completely free. And in that environment, you can do all the things you can't normally do on radio, embrace someone or, you know, eat something or sit down or hug yourself. Because, I mean, that's one of the no-nos, isn't it,

of wearing a radio mic. You can't even, you know, put your hands to your chest because you'll bang the mic. So we were really, really free and obviously free in another way because we didn't have to be looked at, which is also another wonderful freedom. I have to talk about all of that. You know, to give, I was trying, I can't put my finger on it

exactly what it was evoking for me. But it's something like the way the West Wing was groundbreaking in TV when that came out and I had to kind of give it my full attention. That's kind of the feeling I get from it in the sense of the speed and intensity of emotion that's going back and forth. I do have somebody who got in touch talking about that they are an actor and did a voiceover course in lockdown when theatres and filming stopped. And now they just love it. It's Francesca. And she says you can create such different images in people's minds with just your voice. I can be 14 or 40 and I never need to worry about hair and makeup.

Tell me your experience of it. Well, in this adaptation, I play Emily, who was Connie's previous identity when she lived in New York and when she made this life-changing decision. So I play, you know, messy 20-year-old,

20-something-year-old Emily, you know, who's just a recent university graduate getting her first job, living with her husband in New York, getting her Winona Ryder pixie haircut. And then I also play Connie Prynne, which is her new name, you know, this Topanga Canyon mom. And I also have the ability to be her internal monologue, which is a different voice again. It's the voice that we, you know, try and silence, the voice we can't hide from, the voice we, you know,

who can't lie because it's what, you know, our truth really. So obviously if it was a film adaptation, we would never get the internal monologue and I could never play the girl in her 20s. So, you know, that's a lovely freedom. But I can make my voice sound like it's in its 20s, I can't you know unfortunately do that with my face do you feel a move towards audio we're all audio lovers here obviously I'm an audio lover I've done 80 plus hours of recording the the wheel of time novels which is the series I'm working on for Amazon.

I know my voice is cracking today, but that's because I'm in the middle of a junket rather than, you know, somebody who's ill experienced at radio. But I think you have an intimacy with your listeners. I've always been a radio lover. And I know from recording people and interviewing people myself that that there is a freedom people don't imagine the the hundreds and hundreds of ears listening to them like they imagine the hundreds and hundreds of pairs of eyes on them um so people are free to speak in a different way um um and maybe it's you know the old thing you know I grew up in a time when you know the landline you could pick up a landline extension and listen in to someone's phone call you know people don't have that privilege anymore and I think that eavesdropping quality sort of instilled in me very young you know the things that you could hear by as long as the phone didn't betray you with a click

exactly oh gosh I forgot all about that but totally and you know as they say the phone didn't betray you with a click. Exactly. Gosh, I forgot all about that, but totally. And, you know, as they say, the best pictures are on radio, which you are, or podcasts, should I say, at this point as well. Oh, here's a comment. Let me see. If you think Rosamund is good in People Who Knew Me,

try listening to her in Pride and Prejudice. It's absolutely brilliant. I've lost count of the times I have listened to it. Thank you, Rosamund. You've got me through many a dark night. Oh, that's nice. And also, so many people are getting in touch with their favourite narrators. Annie

Aldington is a fantastic narrator. She's my favourite. She knows it. I started listening to audiobooks because just holding a book and following the words is a challenge and words can become blurry and I lose concentration, makes me more exhausted. This person has ME, as they say. We had lots of people saying, let me see, Juliet Stevenson, Miriam Margolis. What about that, about being a narrator and also, I suppose, the way that people feel they know you. I mean,

I feel it after listening to all those episodes of People Who Knew Me. I mean, on one level, if they know your face, it's not a distraction when they're only hearing your voice. You know, Hugh Laurie, for instance, is in People Who Knew Me. Now, if it was me and Hugh Laurie, you know, and you could see us, you know, who knows? You might buy us completely or there might be a freedom to a listener in we can look however you want us to look. You know, you're not tied into our visual. You've got that imagination plus, you know, plus your ear

to create your own pictures. So I always feel that listening to an audiobook is, you absorb information in exactly the same way as you do when you read it. And that's what my job is when I do an audiobook is to create pictures. And you have to see it. It's why you have to prep it so much, because you have to know where the thought is going. You have to know the whole picture you're establishing.

You have to know what the purpose of that picture is in the book so that you're giving a listener the whole thing, and you're living it. That's the wonderful thing. Thank you to the person who mentioned Pride and Prejudice because, you know, you live all these Bennett sisters. You live Mrs. Bennett. And it's so private, and you're so free.

It can be, you can live it just as vividly as you can on screen. And I think it's really interesting hearing this list of favourite narrators, how many screen actors, you know, find this great comfort and excitement in doing audio only. That was Rosamund Pike. That's all from me this afternoon. Nuala will be back on Monday discussing the careers and legacies of two influential female photographers,

Yvonne and Eveline Hoffer. That's Monday from 10. Until then, have a great weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.