Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Olympian Emily Campbell, Sexsomnia and the CPS, Science fiction, Paralympian Jodie Grinham

Episode Date: August 17, 2024

Fresh from the Paris Olympic Games, the Team GB weightlifter Emily Campbell joins Jessica Creighton on the programme. Best known for her no-nonsense attitude, fabulous hair and of course, lifting extremely heavy weights, she joins Jessica to discuss adding bronze to her silver medal from Tokyo.In 2020, Jade Blue McCrossen-Nethercott had the case against her alleged rapist dropped by the CPS. They said that the defence had suggested she suffered from ‘sexsomnia’, where a person performs sexual acts in their sleep. Jade Blue put in a Victim’s Right to Review and received an apology from the CPS for dropping the case, which cannot be re-opened. Jade Blue then sued the CPS – and has now received £35,000 in compensation for damages. Jade joins Jessica to tell her how it feels to have that compensation.Throughout the summer we’ve been taking a look into the world of 'genre fiction' – the women who read it and the women who write it. In the latest of this series, we discuss science fiction. Seen by some as 'a genre for men,' there are lots of women authors and readers who think otherwise. Bafta-nominated screenwriter and playwright, Moira Buffini, who's written The Dig and TV series Harlots, joins Nuala to discuss her debut science fiction novel, Songlight. Larissa Lai, science fiction novelist and professor at University of Toronto, with two novels shortlisted by the Otherwise Award also joins Nuala.The Paris Paralympics are two weeks away, and Nuala is joined by archery champion Jodie Grinham. Having already won a silver medal in Rio and a gold at this year's European Para Cup, Jodie will be looking to win a medal again this summer. She has already broken one record, being the first member of Team GB's para team to compete whilst pregnant.What do you think of maternity clothes? For mums-to-be in 2024, it's apparently all about low-cut jeans and crop tops, moving away from traditional maternity wear. Retailers are recording a decrease of maternity clothes searches with women instead opting for regular clothes, perhaps in a bigger size. So why the shift? Jessica is joined by Assistant Fashion Editor at The Times, Hannah Rogers and influencer and author Alex Light to discuss.Mary Bridget Davies is playing Janis in A Night With Janis Joplin. It's a biographical musical about the life of Janis Joplin and her musical influences. It includes all the big Janis hits, including Piece of My Heart, Cry Baby, Me and Bobby McGee performed by Mary - a role she was Tony-nominated for in the Broadway version of the musical.Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Jessica Crichton. Coming up this week, Team GB weightlifter Emily Campbell on winning her bronze medal, that cartwheel celebration and the importance of body positivity. Also, the next instalment in our genre fiction series. Science fiction fans, yes, it's your turn. Traditionally, it's been considered a male-dominated section, specifically white male.

We'll take a look at why and what's changing. And with the Paralympics just around the corner, Paralympian archer Jodie Grinham, who's off to Paris very soon. She's also 26 weeks pregnant. But what got her into the sport in the first place? My dad did archery. I'd go and watch. I had no interest. You know, to me as a teenage girl, it looked boring. I wasn't going to lie. It was only until somebody at my dad's club had said, due to my disability, that I wouldn't be able to do archery anyway, that that sort of twisted then my interest as such.

So I wanted to prove him wrong that I could actually do it. And we'll hear from Mary Bridget Davies on playing the iconic rock and roll star Janis Joplin in a new musical. So no disruptions for the next hour, just you, the radio and a cup of whatever you fancy. Now, earlier this week, Nuala asked you who your favourite female Olympian was at the Paris Games. You told us about your love for trampolining athlete Bryony Page and BMX rider Bethany Shriever.

There was one woman, though, who was top of your list. And she joined me in the Woman's Hour studio fresh from Paris. It was, of course course Team GB weightlifter Emily Campbell. Not only were you impressed by her incredible strength but also her infectious personality and of course her colourful hair. Emily won a bronze medal at the Games adding to the silver that she won at the last Olympics. She lifted, get this, 288 kilograms in total that's 126 kilograms in the snatch and 162 kilograms in the clean and jerk now i had to start our chat by asking about that hilarious cartwheel celebration the term for it is there's room for improvement um but no it's um we we have a good time in

training we like you know it's very intense a lot of the time and we try and have a lot of fun and um i was messing about one day in training and my coach was like that has got to be the worst cartwheel i've ever seen in my life and he was like you need to do that as a celebration one day and he asked me to do after the commonwealth games and i totally forgot i got like a bit like you i was like engrossed in the moment just enjoying it and you forget everything and all the plans go out the window but then this time i just remembered and i was like i think it's time to do the cartwheel so I did it so now he's happy. Tell me about this bronze medal how proud are you it was a really stacked field a really tough medal to to just for you to get on the podium with such incredible athletes the Chinese athlete as well who won gold South Korean athlete that won silver how do you feel now that you've had a few days to reflect on this all?

Yeah, yeah, it's been really overwhelming, to be fair, because it has been, it's been a difficult road to these games. Like, it wasn't very straightforward for me. Like, I had a coach change, I had lots of injuries, I had loads of things. And, you know, you do get to a point sometimes where you sit there and think, am I going to even be able to get on the start line,

never mind be able to contest for a medal? Really? Was that up in the air, was it? Yeah, it was, you know, it was pretty difficult for me. Like 2023, I had to pull out of the World Championships. I didn't really have any international performances at all. And then in 2024, I managed to retain my European title, but it wasn't a performance that I was proud of. You know, it was great.

And, you know, I was very, very thankful to be able to have another European title. But at the same time, I was like, this performance is not going to do me anything at the Olympics. Like I really have to, you know, I was very, very thankful to be able to have another European title. But at the same time, I was like, this performance is not going to do me anything at the Olympics. Like I really have to, you know, pull it out the bag. So, yeah, it was to even be there. I was, you know, ecstatic. But then obviously me being the very competitive person that I am, I was like, you know, you've come this far.

We've got to finish the job now. So to finally get, you know, another medal. And obviously, you know, people keep saying to me, oh, my God, you a double olympic medalist and like to say that out loud in words is pretty surreal yeah it's incredible like honestly it is because you know you see every single athlete that gets on that gets on that stage gets on that track gets on wherever they're doing they've all trained so so hard to be there and not everybody gets rewarded with the amount of work that they've put in you know and we get back and you know everyone's focused on medals and stuff and whatever but actually you know it's been a journey for absolutely everyone to get there

so obviously to be rewarded for your hard work and be able to bring back another medal and especially to shine another spotlight on British weightlifting as well you know we're all working really really hard I was the sole representation of great British weightlifters at the Games as well. So it was solely on my shoulders to, you know, bring back something positive for our sport. And I'm just so glad that I was able to do it. And do it extremely, extremely well. Now, I mentioned the weight that you lifted. Is it true that you don't know what weight you're going to lift when you get onto that platform

to perform the actual lift yeah a lot of the time i haven't got a clue yeah so your coaches decide for you yeah so you have a bit of a ballpark because you've warmed up in the back so you kind of know what weights you do in the back and you kind of know where you are but yeah they know exactly what everybody else has lifted they know what you need obviously to place you etc so they make all the decisions. So, yeah, I didn't have a clue at all. And even that last lift, like, I knew it was pretty heavy. I knew I needed it for silver.

You didn't know it was for a medal? So I knew, I didn't know the first one was for a medal at all. Wow. I just knew that the first one is, like, your first lift is so important because that sets the pace for the rest of the competition. So I knew, you know, you need to get this first clean and jerky because then you've got a total on the board and then you've got room to move you miss this and then you're playing catch up and obviously I knew the girls were so close and

it wasn't going to make it easy for me so in my head I was just like I just need to nail this and then it was kind of like I only knew that then I secured a medal on the final lift because my coach said to me you nail this we get a silver and I was like oh I've already got a medal and then I tried to like wipe that out my brain because I was like oh I've already got a medal and then I tried to like wipe that out my brain because I was like right no wipe that out your brain like you need to concentrate on this so you know I just have to have that faith that they have in me and just go out there and execute the lift. Tell us how you got into this because I think it happened by accident you were actually competing in shot and hammer is that right and uh randomly one day after a

suggestion from a coach started weightlifting yeah they just basically suggested that if I did the weightlifting movements it would make me stronger for the shot and I would throw the shot further so I was like what's the worst that can happen I'll give it a go started with a coach up at my old university in Leeds and I just absolutely fell in love with it like I loved the complexity of it like I loved one day that you went in and it was going really well and you felt like you was making progress and then then the next day you looked like you'd never done it in your life. And it used to frustrate me. It must be humbling.

Yeah, so humbling. Like, you know, I was a decent level at a shop, but I used to go to qualify for national championships. I went to small nationals and nationals. And I thought, you know, this can't be that hard. No, weightlifting humbled the hell out of me. And I really had to like go back to basics and you know really work on my technique and you know you could be as strong as you want but if the techniques

aren't right it will really you know disadvantage you and then yeah qualified for Commonwealth Games within 18 months of starting weightlifting um and I won bronze in Gold Coast in 2018 and then that's kind of what sparked me to be like okay I'm going to take this seriously now and I'm going to really give it a good shot. And yeah, and the rest is history. Wow. It sounds like you've become obsessed with it, addicted to it. And a lot of elite athletes have to do that, I suppose, to get to the very top. Now, I mentioned earlier about our listeners really just feeling that they could relate to you. They love the fact that you were so vocal about positive body image and I

know that's been something that you've spoken out a lot about why is it that you you want to focus on what your body can do rather than what your body looks like because I just think this Olympics has definitely proved how different we all are and how amazing things that we all do as women I mean and men as well you know we're not we're not forgetting about men but women in particular we are incredible creatures no matter what we look like or what no matter how we are the things that we can achieve and things that we can do and I think that those are things that can be celebrated I feel like in the past and still now sometimes you know it's always focused on how we look or how we dress or what we do and actually it's not about the things that we achieve and the things that you know the impacts we have on people and you know there's women in this world that have

such incredible impacts on the world and sometimes it's always overshadowed by how they look and I just don't think that men get the same criticism as what women do you know for example I'm in the super heavyweight class so it means that I can weigh anything over so for the Olympics it was 81 kilos and normally it's 87 kilos so anything above that you fit into that class so you could be you know 100 kilos you could be 150 kilos and we get a lot of criticism about the fact that we're unhealthy and we we don't look great but then the men they have a super heavyweight class and they're exactly the same as us but they're champion for being strong and powerful and inspiring and if we was going to compare they were exactly the same as us and I just find that really frustrating and it just disencourages women from being able to do

what they want to do there was times where I realized that you know all people were quite interested in what I'm saying so you know what I'm going to try and say the things that I feel like matters and and just personal experience as well like with with gym kit and you know being in spaces and you know still I still as a woman can't walk into a shop now really and buy clothes you know I have to order online because the sizes aren't big enough for me so it's like when you have those experiences yourself and you experience you think well how many more people are going through this and the more I spoke to people and the more I spoke out about people, the more people I had coming to me, well, I have this problem

and I really wanted to start going to the gym, but, you know, all the gym outfits are really horrible and I can't find anything to fit me. And I'm like, we're trying to encourage people to be healthier and to be more active and to be out there, but we can't even get a great gym kit to fit us to start off with. So how do you expect if you want people to be healthier and lose weight weight how do you even start if you can't put a nice outfit on to even go and go and do that so I realized that it was actually a bigger problem than I thought it

was and then I thought well if I've got a platform to be able to speak about it then I'm going to speak about it really enjoyed talking to Olympic weightlifter Emily Campbell there next to an interview that was on Woman's Hour a couple of years ago, but many of you may still remember it. In 2020, Jade Bloom across a nether cot had the case against the alleged rapist dropped by the Crown Prosecution Service or CPS because the defence team said that she could suffer from sexsomnia. While sexsomnia is defined as a sleep disorder that involves a person engaging in sexual activity whilst asleep, they may appear awake and not be aware of their actions or have

any memory of that sexual activity whatsoever. Over the last decade or so, there's been an increase in sexsomnia being used as a defence in rape trials, with defendants alleging that they suffer from sexsomnia and so are unaware of their actions. An investigation by The Observer suggested that of these cases where sexsomnia is used as a defence, 60% end in a not guilty verdict. For my next guest, Jade Blue, her case was unusual in that she, as the alleged victim, was suggested as having the condition. She spoke to Woman's Hour back in 2022 and told Emma Barnett what happened.

A few of us went back to a friend's house. A few people carried on drinking. I had a small glass of wine and decided that was kind of enough, kind of hit a bit of a kind of tired wall as such. So I opted to go to sleep. I've always kind of laughed and joked that I'm able to kind of sleep anywhere really and fell asleep in the living room while people were still drinking, smoking and listening to a bit of like music.

I then woke up in the morning about five o'clock to having my trousers off, my underwear off, my bra unpinged at the back and my necklace broken. And I just felt like incredibly violated. I felt as if something had penetrated me, but I had no clue what. And I turned around and there was another person on the sofa. Two years later, the CPS decided to charge the man in question with rape. He had pleaded not guilty. A trial was set. Two weeks before the trial was due to start, you were asked to attend a meeting with the Crown Prosecution Service. The case didn't go ahead, it was dropped. What do you think of the reason for dropping it? Were you even aware of sexsomnia? To me, it was complete nonsense. I

didn't even know sexsomnia existed. So I ended up sourcing a private sleep specialist and did an at-home study. And? I have like some mild disposition, but I think like most of the public would. A bit of like snoring, mild sleep apnea and any kind of remote history of sleepwalking or sleep talking as a child would be enough for them to potentially not rule it out. But it's always a mere possibility, never really an affirmative, which is even more frustrating, to be honest. After her case was dropped, Jade Blue submitted a victim's right to review. A chief Crown prosecutor reviewed the evidence and concluded that had the case gone to trial, the jury would have been more likely to reach a guilty verdict than not. The CPS apologised to Jade Blue, but she still felt this wasn't enough,

so she sued the CPS for damages. And now, in a Woman's Hour exclusive, we can tell you that Jade Blue has now been awarded £35,000 in damages by the CPS. When I spoke to her, I asked her how she reacted to receiving the compensation. I mean, it's a big triumph, I would say. It's been a long time coming and a real battle

to get to this kind of part in my justice journey, essentially. But I am feeling a sense of triumph relief um there's a line in the sand now I feel like some justice has kind of been served in in some form not how I'd originally anticipated um but it certainly feels that this is a positive outcome and I'm really pleased that I've managed to hold the CPS accountable essentially for their failure to prosecute my rapist um so it does feel like a huge win, but not just for my case. I think it's a huge win for victims everywhere that we can hold the CPS accountable for their failures. So you do feel like it's a positive. You said you feel like it's a triumph. Do you feel like,

for you personally, you're able to possibly draw a line under what's happened to you because you got this settlement? Yeah, very much so. I feel, I mean, the settlement is a bittersweet, really. It's not really about the financial side for me. It's more so holding the CPS accountable and ensuring that they don't make these mistakes again. Unfortunately, I'm still yet to receive my lessons learned letter from the CPS, something that I have been asking since June 21 when the Victims' Right to Review outcome came back. And I have been promised by the CPS that they, as part of this litigation process, that they were going to provide that.

Hopefully that will be soon. And I feel for me that would be the final line in the sand once I've really understood as to what things are being put in place, what policies and practices to avoid this happening again, because the damage is vast to victims that have to navigate that. It's just cruel and inhumane, really. It's important to note that sexsomnia in legal cases can be used in quite different ways, can't it? I mean, most commonly, it's used by alleged perpetrators who claim that they

didn't know that they were actually engaging in sexual activity because they were asleep, which is quite different to your particular case where sexsomnia was used against you to argue that some of your actions whilst asleep could have been perceived as giving consent. I think it's just important to make that distinction for our audience who might not know what sexsomnia actually is. Indeed, yes. I mean, it's definitely becoming an increased line of defence for perpetrators claiming they have it. I do believe that it is a legitimate disorder, but I just think it's a really slippery slope, essentially, and I think the guidance needs to be better for both expert witnesses

and the CPS in how they manage this kind of complex legalities around sleep disorders. They do have guidance, but I think it could probably be a bit better. And they do need to stick to their own guidance about robustly challenging these kind of lines of defence. But yeah, I do have concerns that this could be perhaps used against victims in the future, which is probably, for me, the main driving force. I was really keen to waive my anonymity and speak about this but I do feel it has to be kind of looked into to protect victims being told they have it when they don't

perpetrators claiming they have it when they certainly don't with very little evidence but also for genuine sufferers of sex on me to not be wrongly convicted I think that's really important that for everyone across the board that this this sleep disorder is taken seriously within the courts. And I think that's a collaborative effort from both the CPS and the sleep specialists. There was an investigation by The Observer in April this year. And it found that 80 cases over the past 30 years where defendants accused of rape, sexual assault or child sexual abuse claimed to have been sleepwalking or suffering from sexsomnia at the time. And in the past decades, the Observer found at least 51 cases where people had used sexsomnia as a defence,

eight in the past year alone. So clearly, there's an increase in people using this as a defence. How does that make you feel? It makes me feel very uncomfortable. Yeah, it's just really concerning to see this increased use. It's something that just certainly needs to be addressed by the justice system as a whole. It's, yeah, it's alarming. Talk to me about the process that you went through before you came to this settlement, because I think you started the process three years ago back in 2021 by submitting your victim's right to review. Yes, so my case was closed in October 2020. And it was about February 2021, where I put forward the victim's right to review,

where the CPS essentially had like an independent reviewer, kind of independent of the the rasso unit the rape and sexual offenses unit that was based in london that made the decision to close my case um this independent review came back and they essentially acknowledged that they made a mistake and that they do believe that he would have been found guilty if they'd taken it to trial which they which they obviously couldn't do now um which is very bittersweet. But yeah, finding out that it was because of sexsomnia and this notion of sexsomnia, like from the instant I was like, this is wrong. This is this is an error in decision making here. I felt like this was a completely unjust decision, very hasty and not very well thought out.

I was absolutely shell shocked. Like it really that from that point, that was a real downward spiral for me. I'd lost all faith in the system. I'd already had challenges with the police and just generally going through the hefty process of trying to get a case to court for rape. But this was a shell-shock moment for me. It just completely destroyed me and definitely took me to the darkest points. Despite all that difficulty and everything that you've been through, Jade,

you're still voicing your story. You're still fighting the system. Why are you doing that? What is it that inspired you to keep going? I think every other victim inspired me to keep going. This case against the CPS has never just been about my experience directly. I think for me it was important to kind of shine a light that we can raise our voices,

we can make ourselves heard and we have every right to hold these agencies to account when they fail us. And I just hope that other people know that their voices are powerful and I'm really hopeful that this kind of case and this outcome just shows that if something feels untoward or unjust, speak up, speak out about it. I think that's what's really important because I think that's how we're going to get systemic change is by the more voices collectively coming together and calling this out, essentially. And how aware do you think people are of their right to be able to fight institutions like the CPS and use the right of review? I don't think it's commonly known. I think there's definitely work to be done in emphasising avenues of challenging these systems. You very much have to be your own fierce advocate navigating the justice system. I spent so much time educating myself reading up reaching out to charities seeking

support and advice and it shouldn't be that it shouldn't be that difficult there should be like a straightforward process and allowing like victims to empower themselves to be able to navigate that and and speak up if needed it's something that definitely needs to be addressed I mean there has been a push on the victims code recently from the Ministry of Justice but again it can't just be a one-off push. It has to be a continuous conversation. So I think that's really important. There was a recommendation by the former Victims Commissioner Dame Vera Baird in her 2022 report on the Victims Bill, where she said that victims of crimes should be given independent legal advice. Do you agree with that?

Oh, very much so. I think that would have been a huge game changer for my process as well. I think it's really important to be able to have that kind of independent legal advice before the CPS make any hasty decisions. All this could be avoided and the trauma and the damage kind of inflicted could be avoided if there was somebody kind of advocating in your corner, because at the end of the day, victims that are going through the justice process, they don't have any legal advice. You kind of tend to meet your CPS prosecutor on the day and kind of hope for the best that they know your case in and out and they've got your best interest.

But I'd say from what I've read and the victims I've spoken to, that is far from reality, unfortunately. Jade Blue, it's been seven years since the incident itself to today, and it sounds like you've been through so much. What impact has all of this had on you? The impact has been vast, really, really challenging. From report to court, or nearly to court anyway, in my instance, that had its own issues but the cps side of things when they close the case that was the most impactful i was off work for six months i six months sorry i took a demotion very much took a step back in my career there's things i'd wanted to achieve by now i was

really keen to perhaps start a family by now and so kind of my life has been essentially put on pause and then onto the physical side of things as well during the cps process it was it was really challenging i must have put on about like 20 kilos really unhealthy coping mechanisms eating ridiculous amounts of food um binging alcohol consumption relying on medication it was it's a lot it takes you to the darkest points and only now do i feel like i've actually reclaimed some of myself back. Jade Blue, Macrossan Nethercott speaking to me there. And if you've been affected by anything that you've heard in that interview,

there are links to support and resources on our website. And I do have a statement here from the Crown Prosecution Service. A spokesperson said, a settlement has been reached with Miss Macrossan-Nethercott, to whom we have apologised unreservedly, and we continue to wish her the very best going forward. We are committed to improving every aspect of how life-changing crimes like rape are dealt with, and how we are closely working with police from an early stage to ensure we focus on the behaviour and actions of the suspect, not the victim. Now, I promised you something, didn't I, science fiction fans? Here it is, because throughout

the summer we've been looking into the world of genre fiction, why women read what they read, and who the women are who are writing. In the latest of this series, we discuss science fiction, seen by some as a genre for men. There are actually lots of women authors and readers who think otherwise. Wanula was recently joined by science fiction novelist and professor at the University of Toronto, with two novels shortlisted by the Otherwise Award, Larissa Lai, and also by BAFTA-nominated screenwriter and playwright Moira Buffini. Many of you will know her for the Netflix movie The Dig and TV series Harlots.

She decided to take the plunge into novel writing and her first science fiction novel, Songlight, is out later this month. So how does Maura define science fiction? I would say it's a fiction that imagines a future. What about you, Larissa? Agree with that? Oh, gosh, sure.

But then I would also add, you know, that science fiction tends to be about science, about technology, about the world to come. About the world to come is interesting. I was listening to this interview with Ursula K. Le Guin, who was also this revered science fiction and fantasy writer. And she talked about science fiction as a metaphor for life on Earth. That's a wonderful definition. That's really fantastic.

And I kind of think science fiction, mine is a low tech future in this. So I think it's about in some futures we have lost science. And yet I still think if you set something 5000 years in the future, the act of imagination still falls into that genre. What do you think, Larissa? Yeah, I mean, I think one of the great powers of science fiction is its capacity to, you know, estrange us a little bit from our sense of our everyday life. But in the work of estrangement, sometimes we can see our own lives more clearly because things aren't quite so close to home.

Do you know what I mean? Yes, I do know what you mean. I think it's why I've probably shied away from it. I'd be curious what my listeners think that that feeling of estrangement can be kind of uncomfortable in some ways. And it's why people love it as well. But Maura, you've had a successful career as a screenwriter

and many other roles, as I mentioned. Why did you decide to move into science fiction? I couldn't tell this story any other way. And it's a story I've always wanted to tell. Can we give a quick synopsis? This is a story about female friendship, but the young women in question live several thousand years in the future in a kind of civilization that's re-emerging after a mass extinction event. And it is a very repressive civilization. Yes. Yes, it is a very repressive civilisation. Yes. Yes, it is.

I think I wanted to tell this story because I desperately don't want this future to happen. And I think that's why science fiction draws a lot of writers. It's like, let's not have this future. And I think by the act of writing it, it's kind of like saying, let's not go down this path that we seem to be teetering on the brink of. So is your inspiration things you're seeing around you now? Yes, always, always.

Wow. Always. I mean, and that's for everything I write, I suppose. suppose but but but particularly the the the rise in misogyny uh when we when we felt as as women i think that we've been making progress towards equality and inclusion that you you know there have been forces of terrifying misogyny at work in the world and And it's a world I've portrayed as being in the future, but there are many places in the world now that are equally as repressive for women. And with that, because when I come to you, Larissa, you wrote your first novel in 1995.

It was mythology-rooted book. Since then, you've delved into several sub-genres. But your novel, The Tiger Flu, that was 2018, was a return back to the science fiction genre. And we were hearing why Moira dived into it. But why do you keep returning back as a writer and a reader? Well, interestingly, it's both things. I'm afraid of the world that might come,

but I'm also hopeful about it. So The Tiger Flu was really me kind of trying to think about would a world be possible where it. So the tiger flu was really me kind of trying to think about would it be would a world be possible where women have more power, where our lives are better, ways in which a world might come about where women are doing better than they are in the present day. But of course the difficulties I began to write that narrative is we have our own ways as women don't we of causing one another trouble and of being perhaps not so great all the time. And so then I became very interested in the dynamic, the things that occur among women, perhaps because of the inheritances of patriarchy, perhaps just things that are endemic to being a woman.

And so it was an export, that novel is an exploration of that. Yeah, it's very hard to know what a world would be like of women in the way you describe. But to try and imagine it without the patriarchy and the tentacles of that, that remain.

Yes, this was what I found as I began to write the novel, that the tentacles remain and, you know, the difficulties of power and, you know, the difficulties of power and balance. It's very difficult to imagine a world without power and balance. But then the ways the tentacles reach in do change if the demographics change. With Songlight, I felt immediately it was about power I was reading about, Moira.

Yes, it is. It is. But I mean, just picking up on what Larissa said about hope, I think that is the other reason I've decided to write about the far future, is that there is a sense of a continuum of life going on, of hope. And also, I think writing about a situation, a society that is slightly worse than your own, I think... Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but I hear where you're going. I think what you're saying is if we can imagine a kind of act of resistance and rebellion in that society, we can imagine one in our own. And I think that's what my story is about. It is about power. It's about how do the powerless find their power.

And it's about resistance and rebellion. You know, we're speaking about science fiction. This is Woman's Hour. And it is a genre that has if science fiction is talking about, you know, future and power and I suppose the power balance and where it lies and imagining these different worlds. Why do you think, Moira, it's always been seen as a more male dominated, both reader and writer? I think it's one of the many, many things in this world that have been dominated by white men. And indeed, all the first writers I read, John Wyndham, Orwell,

Aldous Huxley, I was very inspired. You've already mentioned Ursula K. Le Guin. I was very inspired by her. I read her novels when I was young and found them simply amazing. And the same with Marge Piercy, who wrote Woman on the Edge of Time, which is an incredible story set in a bizarre future. And of course, the inestimable Margaret Atwood, who I think is just such an inspiration. I think The Handmaid's Tale is an amazing futuristic dystopian novel. And it's often about traditional female expectations that a patriarchal society would have on them. I'm just thinking of The Handmaid's Tale, for example. And I know, Larissa, you put two thumbs up when she talked about Margaret Piercy.

But you are very interested, interested too in those questions of reproduction and cloning. Do you want to expand on why? Oh, sure, yes. I like to say that my novels are all very gooey. You're thinking about the movie Alien, you know, with all the goo kind of coming. Because that's the part, I think,

that the boys are really not into, right? They want the rockets and the spaceships and the computers and all the machines. My fiction has machines too, but they're very biological. So those elements of science that I'm interested in are things like cloning and the manipulation of DNA, diseases of various kinds. I guess that's my way of being feminist, you know, that I think that these sort of the biological elements of science are connected to the way as women we are in our bodies, that it's all the sort of the liquid things, the capacities for mutation and transformation and change through the body. Those are the things that I just I'm drawn to and find really interesting.

And then obviously questions of reproduction. So I guess sort of thinking about, for sure, Le Guin, actually Piercy too, all those second wave feminist spec fiction writers that were really thinking about, well, you know, if we're going to be feminists and we're going to find a way to be stronger in the world, does it mean we need to be more like men? And if so, then what happens to our capacity for reproduction?

Larissa Lye and Maura then what happens to our capacity for reproduction larissa lie and maura buffini talking to newlet there and maura's book song light is out on the 29th of august still to come on the program mary bridget davis on playing the iconic rock and roll star janice joplin in a new musical in london's west end and is Listener Week. That means all of the discussions you hear on the programme all week long are suggested by you. We've already received lots of interesting topics from you, but there's still a chance for you to suggest a story if you want to. You may even want to come on the programme yourself, or you could just nominate someone you'd like to hear from. You can contact us in the usual way text on 84844 just remember that text will be

charged at your standard message rate you can whatsapp on 03700100444 on social media it's at bbc woman's hour or you can send us an email via the woman's hour website and remember that you can enjoy woman's hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, just subscribe to the daily podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Now, our next guest is breaking new ground. She'll be competing at the upcoming Paralympics whilst pregnant. Team GB's Jodie Grinham is already a silver medalist in archery from the Rio Games back in 2016. And this year, she hopes to medal again at the Paris Games, which starts in less than two weeks. Jodie will be the first British woman to compete at the Paralympics whilst pregnant.

She'll be 28 weeks gone by the time she competes. Nuala asked Jodie if she had to make any changes to her equipment because she's pregnant. Yes. So like my quiver belt. So obviously our arrows go in our quiver. That helps us hold them. And that hasn't been able to fit. So I very much find and adjust and get a belt that adjusts as I grow. It's also meant that I've had to wear it a bit lower down,

which I'm not used to because then it adjusts like my bow height of how I hold it. I think another one's been kit. So my belly is growing, which means I need bigger and baggier tops. However, my shoulders aren't at the same level of growth, should I say, as my belly. So I get quite baggy up here. So I've had to adjust and wear like a guard that pulls all the clothing in. and you're pointing at your shoulder and armpit yes yeah for our radio listeners so what did you think when you realized the timing of the pregnancy and the games believe it or not the pregnancy's planned I think that's like one of the biggest shocks that people find you know it wasn't like oh my gosh I'm pregnant how am I going to do it it was very much uh we made the decision that we wanted another baby and we weren't going to let the games stop us you know we had we had our son nearly two years ago um in order for us to get pregnant it wasn't

easy you know we lost three we tried and it just it wasn't working for us and we tried to hold off till after Tokyo anyway but then it got postponed. You know, things happen in life. And it's not as simple as just you click your fingers and you can fall pregnant for some women. And we made the decision that for Paris, we weren't going to go through that again. You know, I'm 31. I'm not saying that that's old. I'm not saying that's young, but women have a clock.

And I don't want to be in the position where the older I get, I'm holding off having a family for my career. Why can't I have both? So we had a cutoff. I didn't want to be at Paris, you know, in my first trimester, just with sickness and everything else that comes with it. But yeah, we tried and we hoped for the best and if it happened great if it didn't we would just continue trying um until until we were lucky enough to fool with our little kinder egg surprise that we've got now well congratulations on that and i'm sorry for your previous losses um but are there health considerations to think about for competing while pregnant? So there's a few things.

So, for example, you know, like gym workouts or raising my heart level. So anytime I've been doing any activities like that, I've worn like a heart rate monitor. So they can just monitor to make sure my heart rate isn't going to go too high. So it's not going to stress the baby. Same with temperatures obviously I'm already getting quite hot normally and getting sweaty because gym I'm working out the weather let alone being pregnant that adds like a completely different temperature to your body anyway so we've been very much doing like heat sessions to get me ready because Paris seems to be a lot hotter than people predicted and you will be 28 weeks as I mentioned do you have to keep in

mind what if the baby decides to come early yes so we we very much have like backup plans um with my first pregnancy it was not it was not a walk in the park I was on bed rest I was very very poorly we had like ABO incompatibility you know i was very sick i went started to go into early labor at 28 weeks with my first so these are things that we've obviously had to think about and the precautions we've put in place so we have we you know we've gone through like a to z of backup plans or what if planning it's been one of those ones where i know where the nearest like maternity units are or hospitals, because just in case something happens, where can I get that specialist medical treatment?

It's not going to be as simple as an injury. This will be something where I need medical assistance immediately. The British Paralympic Association has looked into all this to make sure I'm happy with what can be offered while I'm out there. How did you realise you were going to be a world-class archer? It was never in the plan. It wasn't something that I... It wasn't?

Because you sound to me like a woman that makes plans. I do. I am very much. Everything is planned in my life, and I know what I'm doing, when I'm doing it, and everything's structured. But when it came to this it was it was not but it was very much you know my dad did archery I'd go and watch I had no interest

you know to me as a teenage girl it looked it looked boring I wasn't gonna lie I was very used to being doing things like running or football things that seemed more energetic whereas archery seems quite static you stand in one spot spot, you shoot, you come back, it's very repetitive. However, it was only until somebody at my dad's club had said, due to my disability, that I wouldn't be able to do archery anyway, that that sort of twisted then my interest as such. So I wanted to prove him wrong that I could actually do it. And being the stubborn miss that I am actually do it and being being the stubborn miss that I am my dad and I spent many weeks to a few months chopping up bits of equipment and

stuff making sure that I'd be able to hold the bow and that's that the rest is history you know I got onto my county which is Sussex squad as a junior and my coach realized I had a disability and she you know tried to nudge me towards the para archery team up at GB because they were holding talent days and scouting. And I had no interest. I said no. It wasn't, you know, I didn't see myself as disabled. I wasn't going to be told that I couldn't do things because I had a disability. My dad tricked me and told me we were going to a competition and turned up at the talent day. And really from there, the rest is history.

I'm so interested in a couple of aspects. The condition you have is called brachysyndactyly, if I'm pronouncing it correctly. But also that you were convincing yourself or trying to convince others that you were not disabled. Do you want to talk to me a little bit about that? And also perhaps a little about your condition for people that aren't familiar? Yes, of course. So I was born with a condition

where I have no fingers on my left hand and my thumb is half a thumb. So there's like only a bone in a little bit. So it's mostly just flesh. My forearm isn't developed properly. So it's a different length to my right. It goes up into my left shoulder my left shoulder is undeveloped and missing sections which then also come down

into the left side of my body and chest into my hip um which is quite interesting because it wasn't spotted on any of my scans when you know when my mum was having me and even after I was born the doctors didn't notice it once my dad was getting ready to take me home and getting me dressed that my dad noticed there was an issue and then I got whisked away because they just thought I was holding a fist in my hand so it's things even then going back 30 years that my you know my disability didn't have enough knowledge so it's crazy how times have changed so then moving on from my disability I then went into different schools and I was bullied constantly you know I've been pushed in front of cars for

being different and you know looking different and no one's ever going to want to be with me and it was horrendous being a child growing up and I moved schools I you know made new friends constantly but actually the idea of now competing as a disabled woman to me sounded awful because I was then going to promote the thing that I was getting bullied for right I understand no nobody wants to promote the negativity in their life you know that they want to hide it away and a lot of time in my early career I'd wear a sleeve over my hand so people wouldn't be able to see my hand and you know just just to stop comments or stares and it was only actually until I got to Rio in 2016 that I met all these amazing athletes with all these different disabilities and even if someone has the same disability as me it's different nobody is the same in this world.

So why can't we just accept that? That was Jodie Grinham talking to Nuala there and the 2024 Paralympics begin in Paris on the 28th of August. Not long to wait now. Now, there was a time when dressing during pregnancy meant keeping your baby bump hidden. But after a number of celebrities like Rihanna, Sienna Miller and Margot Robbie have made their bumps the focal point of their outfits, is that all changing?

Well, retailers have seen a decrease in sales of maternity clothing. Instead, women are opting for regular trendy clothes, just in a bigger size. So does this spell the end for maternity specific clothes? I spoke to Alexlex light a fashion and beauty influencer and author of you are not a before picture and hannah rogers the assistant fashion editor at the times i asked hannah if we're seeing a shift in maternity fashion trends yes i think this is absolutely fascinating um and i say that as a woman who is of an age where lots of friends are getting pregnant so I'm witnessing kind of in real time how these trends are being worked in the real world but I think what it is it's it's a change in what women want from their maternity

wear and I think that change is reflected as you rightly said in terms of where they're shopping for their clothes when pregnant so not necessarily going to those maternity wear brands that maybe our mothers and grandmothers did. And I think it's also reflected in what maternity wear labels are now pivoting to sell in order to appeal to their customers. And I guess if I was going to put it in a nutshell, I'd say we've moved from bump smothering to bump flashing oh yeah okay why is this what what's happening what's the reasons behind this why has things changed to how perhaps our mothers and grandmothers were buying um clothes when they were pregnant well I think as you say I think there's a lot of celebrity influence. You know, look at Rihanna on the front row at Dior, coming bump first.

Striking image, wasn't it? It was incredible. It was absolutely amazing. It was such a moment. I mean, possibly, actually, definitely more exciting than what was on the catwalk. You know, look at 27-year-old Hailey Bieber. My sister-in-law of a similar age just gave birth yesterday. And I know that she has been following what Hayley's been wearing during her pregnancy in what she has worn as well. Crop tops, you know, bodycon dresses. Hayley did a big shoot for W Magazine last month when she was on the cover, you know, in a bump. And also Margot Robbie, you know, crop tops, blazers. You just, I think it's a combination of women feeling really confident when they're pregnant. I think that when I've spoken to my friends,

they have said they feel more body confident than ever before when they've got their baby bumps. And now it feels more acceptable to show the process off than hide it away. So I think there's a few different things at play, but I think it's great. It certainly provides really striking, eye-catching images. Alex, you had a baby just six months ago. Baby Tommy? Yes.

Lovely. Congratulations. Thank you. So what did you wear? I mean, I found this quite mean I found I suppose you wore different things during different stages as well I did I really put off maternity wear for as long as I physically could okay because I found pregnancy already a very uh a difficult amazing but difficult time and it was I found that already my identity felt quite challenged and I didn't want to and my body was changing so much I didn't want to, and my body was changing so much.

I didn't want to bring that into what I was wearing as well. I wanted to keep that identity. So I put it off for as long as possible until I reached about four or five, five months when it just wasn't physically, it wasn't possible to fit into my own clothes. So before, up until that point, you're wearing your own clothes.

I was wearing, everything was fitting roughly. Just about. I was wearing the Everything was fitting roughly. Just about. I was wearing the baggier end of my wardrobe. And it was it was kind of I was I was getting away with it until I no longer could. And I admitted defeat. And then I did a lot of a lot of research around maternity wear and what I was supposed to dress my body in. And I found it really interesting.

I found these two very different maternity offerings on the market one was like the historical like typical maternity wear it was like smocks and wrap dresses and yeah you know things that like like Hannah was saying like cover the bump and lots of florals and patterns and then the other offering was this more modern take on maternity wear which was like crop tops and like low slung jeans that go underneath the bump and sheer dresses and I found it quite hard because neither really appealed to me oh really yeah totally and I I love the new like I loved Rihanna's um moment it was incredible and I love seeing these celebrities like and all women just like embracing their body and showing it off and

letting their bumps take center stage I love it but it just it's just never been my way of of of dressing and I just needed stuff to like go down the supermarket and you know I feel comfortable like I didn't need stuff for a moment I just needed like everyday wear and I found that really difficult so what did you do I I ended up I ended up going along the the route of like basics buying basics so like uh black midi dresses and just going for like oversized t-shirts and jeans in a in a in a bigger size so it's comfort but it's also what you feel comfortable in exactly in terms of it's almost fashionable comfortable fashion fashion. How would you describe it? Right, exactly. Exactly. And I kind of I just stayed true to my old fashioned sense and just

bought bigger sizes. Because that just I found that that appealed to me more than like the maternity, the current maternity offering. And that worked for you? That worked for me. Yeah. Okay. Okay. What have other women said to you about what they do during pregnancy? Because you've got a big following on social media, and I know you interact with a lot of your audience. Are they saying similar things? Totally. Yeah, I think I think I think women do historically and currently find this very difficult to, it's quite challenging to keep up with a changing body and then dress a changing body.

So I think there's a lot of doubt and uncertainty about what to do. And I think people just find it really confusing. And I think there's also the financial aspect of it, right? Trying to rationalise the financial decision of investing in a wardrobe that's going to be used for a very, very small amount of time is difficult. So I think people really appreciate the idea of clothes that you can wear during pregnancy and beyond. And there are a few brands now that offer that, which I think is really great. And towards the end, I started investing in some of those pieces because, yeah,

the financial impact isn't as great if you can continue to wear the clothes. Well, Hannah, that can be a problem, can't it? When you think about the finances that people have available to them, if they have to buy a whole new wardrobe of maternity wear, it can be expensive. I imagine it's completely overwhelming and you have no idea or control over whether you'll have use for those clothes again. I mean, I'm guessing what a lot of mothers do now is either buy secondhand or borrow from friends. Maybe they get hand-me-downs. But I think, Alex, you make a really good point of what is on offer.

It seems that you kind of get two identities. You can either be kind of like bucolic pregnancy or pregnancy and if you just want to look like you it is it is really really difficult um i think there are a couple of brands out there though there's one brand called beyond nine which makes a point of creating clothes that you can wear during pregnancy but are designed to be worn afterwards and also before. And I think some brands are getting better at catering for that. But I do, I mean, I sympathize. I think it's really challenging. You know, you have enough cost to think about when you're bringing a child into the world. And you know what, also, you might not be having a fantastic pregnancy. You might feel absolutely rotten. So the last thing you're thinking about is how could I look terribly glamorous as well? I can see why people would

just be keener to kind of shop for what shop at the brand that they already like in bigger sizes, or as I say, maybe just borrow from friends. All changed then, it seems. That was Alex Light and Hannah Rogers. Now, Mary Bridget Davies is an American singer and actress. She has her own band, the Mary Bridget Davies Group, but is also an interpreter of the music of the iconic American singer, Janis Joplin. Mary is about to perform in a new musical, A Night With Janis Joplin, at London's Peacock Theatre.

It's a role that she's previously played on Broadway, receiving a Tony Award nomination for Best Lead Actress in a Musical. The show is about the life of Janice and her musical influences and includes her iconic hits Peace of My Heart, Cry Baby, Me and Bobby McGee. Janice tragically died at the age of 27 back in 1970, but her legacy lives on. Nuala asked Mary Bridget about how it feels to portray such an iconic figure. As I joke, I was raised on the best music. This is my parents' generation.

This was their music. And so I was exposed to the blues and Janice. So I was a fan first. So then I got the job, which was amazing. But I know for a fact that her fans are so diehard because I was one as well. So it's such a, it's a responsibility to play her more so than a fictional character, for example. She lived, she breathed, she changed people's lives in the short time that she was famous. And like you say, the legacy, she's still famous. She's just not here to enjoy it.

You know, it was only two and a half years that she was alive to really hit that height of fame and really ride it out. You're going to perform, oh, I'm so excited about this, me and Bobby McGee. Yes. I love that song. I do too. And it's never gotten old. I love this job. It's so much fun it's never gotten old. I love this job. It's so much fun.

Tell me about it. Written by Kris Kristofferson? Yeah. And they were dear friends. And, you know, she had a really beautiful home in Larkspur, just north of San Francisco. And she had kind of created an environment where, because he was an up-and-coming songwriter at the time, everybody would just hang out at her house and create. And he had written that

and her being a Texan and it being kind of like a country folk number. She'd been doing the psychedelic stuff and whatever for so long. She's like, actually, I like this, Chris. I think I'm going to do this one. He's like, you do what you want, you know. And it became like one of her biggest hits. And that album was released after she passed, you know, so she didn't even get to enjoy that.

You're going to be joined. Mary Brid davis and tim bloomer on guitar there a night with janice joplin is at london's peacock theater from the 21st of august until the 28th of september well as i mentioned to you earlier monday is the start of listener week here on woman's hour that's when we hand the reins over to you new look we'll will hear from a 65-year-old woman who sold her home and possessions to live in a van. We'll also look at the topic of surrogacy and hear from a female stonemason at Lincoln Cathedral. That's all to come next week.

Join Nuala McGovern at 10am here on Radio 4. Or you can catch up, of course, as always, on any of our episodes on BBC Sounds. Speak to you soon. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.