Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour - Ozlem Cekic, The Crown, Lockdown Bickering

Episode Date: November 28, 2020

Ozlem Cekic, one of the first Muslim women with an immigrant background to enter Danish parliament, tells us why she decided to meet up with the people who sent her racist emails. We discuss whether a new women's centre at the site of the former Holloway Women's Prison will get the go ahead. We hear from Lucy who's with Reclaim Holloway and also from the last woman to leave the prison four years ago.The lastest series of the drama The Crown has introduced a new generation to Princess Diana as well as her depression and her bulimia. We hear from the former BBC Royal Correspondent, Jennie Bond, and from Ali Pantony of Glamour Magazine.The chef and writer, Marie Mitchell, tells us about her love of Caribbean food and culture and how to cook the perfect Roti.And we discuss bickering with Penny Mansfield from the relationships charity One Plus One. She tells us why she thinks the pandemic has bought out the bickerer in many of us. One of our listeners, Deborah, tells us what starts off a bickering argument with her partner.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor: Siobhan Tighe

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi there, good afternoon and welcome to a slightly shorter edition of Weekend Woman's Hour. We've got some good stuff for you though. You can hear Uslem Cekic on this programme. She was so interesting, the first Muslim woman to enter the Danish Parliament and she told me this week why she had decided to meet face-to-face some of the racists who'd emailed her abuse. She'll talk about that.

We discover, too, why many more of you are bickering with partners as you spend more time than ever before at home. And we'll hear of the impact of the Netflix series The Crown and, in particular, the story of Charles and Diana on younger female audience members, with particular reference to the programme's treatment of bulimia. And the chef and writer Marie Mitchell talks about the importance of food. Food is incredibly political.

What's so beautiful about what features on your plate is it's a chance to actually understand history. And obviously then with that, you're able to then also engage in your own culture as well. So it's just a really beautiful metaphor, almost, of what's gone on before. Marie Mitchell, a little bit later in the programme this afternoon. First of all, then, to one of the, well, unforgettable interviews that you're fortunate enough to do on Women's Hour occasionally. Özlem Cekic is one of the first women with a Muslim immigrant background to enter the Danish parliament. And when she did so,

she got hate mail from people who thought she should, quotes, go home. At the start of all that, she deleted the stuff or tried to ignore it. Then one day, she'd had enough

and decided she'd go and meet some of the people who'd felt they needed to email her with abuse. Özlem has now left politics, but has written about her experiences in a book called Overcoming Hate Through Dialogue. Here she is. The first email was when I was in the parliament and I gave my first speech. And after that, I sit in my seat and I could see that it was two emails from Citizen.

And I think the first one was something about that I was a terrorist doing in the parliament. And I just deleted them because I thought that the senders and I didn't understand them so so it's it doesn't affect me I just I just delete them you just delete them and you say it doesn't affect you but it's horrifying and it should never have happened what do you think is in these people's heads when they send emails like that? Oh, it's many things because the last 11, 12 years I visit these people and talk with them why they are sending those hate emails. And some of them are very afraid about what's happening with the Islamic terror. They can't find the terrorist email, but they can find me on Facebook. And I'm not saying that their behavior is acceptable.

Some of them don't know anyone with Muslim ethnic background. And the Internet has a very good side, but the bad side is that people, it's so easy for them to generalize all the Muslims as bad people. In the beginning, I just deleted them, but one day, one of my colleagues said that I should save the emails because when something happens to you, it'll give the police a lead, she said. So I noticed that she said when something happens and not if. And that was the reason I saved all the hate mails. But in 2010, a Nazi began to arrest me. And it was a man who had attacked Muslim women on the street. And one day I was at the zoo with my children and the

phone kept ringing and it was the Nazi. And I had the impression that he was close. So we headed home. And when we got back, my son asked, why does he hate you so much, mom, when he doesn't even know you? And I answered that some people are just a bit. And at the time, I actually thought that was the pretty clever answer. So I talked with one of my friends about this and he said, you know, you should

visit them. And I said, visit them? They will kill me. And he said, no, they will never kill a member of the Danish parliament. And if they killed you, you will become a martyr. So it's pure win-win situation for you. Yeah. So your status as an elected politician was a sort of protection. But nevertheless, some people, well, many of us would regard what you did as very brave. What was it like when you first confronted a couple of people who'd shown you such hatred? Just take us back to that meeting. You know, it was, I visited Ingolf. He was the first I visited. And I decided to call him just once so I could say at least I had tried and in my head I want to make him good

again so my purpose to visit him was not like what when my friend said to me that I should confirm my own racism because I don't think that I was racist that I demonize but I think that I was racist, that I demonize. But I think if I visit him and he could see a Muslim who's supporting democracy and pay tax, maybe he could be good again. So, but to my surprise and shock, he answered the phone. So I blurted out and I talked so quickly and I said, hello, my name is Özlem. You have sent me so many hate mails. You don't know me. I don't know you. I was wondering if I could come around and we could drink a coffee together.

And there was silence on the line. And then he said, I have to ask my wife. And I think, what? The racist has a wife? And it was a shock. It was the first shock. Because it humanized him. It made you realize that this man who'd been so vile to you was a human just like the rest of us. Just like my father.

You know, my father can be so, sometimes can speak so tough. But every time we ask him something, he always asks my mom. Can I ask, did you change his views? But that is not the point of dialogue. Dialogue is not about changing people's opinions. It's about learning to live with the fact that we can have conflicting views. We can become aware of our own prejudices through conversation. So our prejudices can't control us, the same accent. And it was not only Ingolf who has prejudices,

because my experience after this first meeting was I have the same prejudices. Because I never forget when he opened his front door and reached out to shake my hand. I feel so disappointed because he looked nothing like I imagined. I expected a horrible person in a teacher house. It was not. His house smelled of coffee, which he served from a coffee set identical to the one my parents used. So when, and I was, I ended up staying with him in two and a half hours and we had so

much in common. And that was the most interesting thing because even our prejudices were alike. For example, Ingolf told that when he waited for the bus and the bus stopped 10 meters away from him, he was sure that the driver was a racist. And I can remember when I was young and I hate Danes because I have so I have some experience where I wear a headscarf and someone on the street splattered at me and and in this time I really hate Danes and when I wait for the bus and the driver stopped 10 meters away from me, I was sure that the driver was a racist. So we talk about this thing with Ingolf. And it was first time I could see that I have so many prejudices too.

Yeah, but of course, you, I don't suppose, well, perhaps you can tell me, you didn't send hate-filled letters or emails, did you? No, but people can dehumanize the others in different ways. It's not that only that people send hate mails. I think we all have prejudices. We all dehumanize the others. But we are not so focused on our own faults, but we focus too much about how the others can make things different. You can imagine how is it with Brexit too in UK. A lot of people don't talk with each other. And it's not only in the political level, it's in the family level too. But we don't want to talk about it because in our own hand, we are the good guys and the other are the bad guys.

This is, you're right. I mean, this is all very uncomfortable stuff, isn't it? Most of us, unlike you, don't really want to confront this. I know you have now left politics. What are you doing now? How are you working? Now, I'm not part of any political parties. In Denmark, I have founded an organization called Bridge Builders. We have recently trained 600 Danish schoolchildren who come from very different backgrounds in how to talk to people they disagree with. This is an important lesson for us because we all demonize. But is there anyone, Özlem, that you will not talk to? I'm not saying that conversation is easy. It is the most difficult thing in a democracy.

But it is necessary because all peace process, no matter it's in Syria or with your neighbour, it starts with the two people sit down and talk together. That is the voice of Özlem Cekic, who has written that very impressive book about overcoming hate through dialogue. Now, Holloway Women's Prison in London was absolutely notorious and it closed four years ago. Since then there's been a huge amount of discussion about what happens to the site. In a prime development spot in the middle of Islington in North London it was sold last year for 82 million pounds. The plan is to build a mix of private and social housing on the site, but campaigners want a new women's centre there as well. Our reporter Melanie Abbott went to the prison for us on Wednesday.

I'm actually inside, as you may hear, the very echoey segregation and healthcare unit, which is where women would have been brought if they were at risk or perhaps at risk to others. And I can go into one of the cells now. You can hear that clank. And as I look, there is a very low bunk made of plastic, no sharp edges, no metal to injure yourself on or to injure others with. And as I walk around, there's a tiny sink in the corner with push buttons for the tap, so you can't possibly break the tap off and use it in that way. A very tiny toilet in the corner with push buttons for the tap so you can't possibly break the tap off and use it in that way a very uh tiny toilet in the corner it is very atmospheric and really quite

eerie being here and imagining that once there were a lot a lot of prisoners here now of course it's hard to believe that it's only four years since it's closed. The paint is peeling off the walls. There's mould everywhere. This is, though, a 10-acre site, and the plan is to build around 1,000 homes here. But as you said, there has been much discussion about a women's building here as well to replace some of the services that would have been offered when this was the prison.

Lucy is a campaigner from Reclaim Holloway. Now, the campaign for a women's building started pretty much immediately, Lucy. What's happened over the last four years? Well, Reclaim Holloway and the community have been working together to actually look at what is actually needed for a women's building. So there's been a lot of awareness raising and a lot of discussion with Peabody and the council to try and form what the women's building would actually be.

The council have produced a draft brief that is approximately 1,200 square metres and the community and Reclaim Holloway have fed into the feedback from this draft brief. And so we're currently at a position where we're waiting to see the response to that feedback. 1,200 square metres, is that what you envisaged? Is that what you hoped for?

Reclaim Holloway suggests that it should be substantially more than that because if you actually provide space for all the services to come together under one roof so that they can work together and refer together, there would need to be a lot more space just to accommodate those services, organisations, as charities, as well as having art therapy classes and therapy and maybe a legacy space

and all sorts of what we would call resettlement that would help women actually reintegrate back into the community. The prison closed in July 2016 and women prisoners had either been released or sent off to other prisons in a gradual way up to that date but, I spoke to the very last prisoner to leave. The atmosphere was really sad. Everyone was just really, really sad. We'd spent a few months clearing cells, clearing association areas, the gym, things. On that last day, the officers made a card of honour for me. And every one of the officers, they put their arms up. And as I come out of there, I thought it was so surreal. I thought this is history in the making. I am the last ever woman

to be released from this prison, this magnificent building that's been standing here for over 150 years. That moment will stay with me forever. What was the officer's reaction to the closure? The officers were very, very upset and all. But some of the officers I remember vividly, I won't name her name, but she'd worked there nearly 30 years. I felt so sorry for her. She said it was like losing a child to her

because she'd seen so many girls come in and out over them years. She'd literally grown up with them girls. And it wasn't just a prison, it was a support network for a lot of people, you know, with mental health issues, addiction. How did you fare personally during your time in prison? You either get on or get in trouble, really. I personally done quite a lot of long-distance learning courses in there. I tried to be a listener, which is like a Samaritan.

I actually worked in Holloway Hub, which was a place, as they come out of the prison, it was just basically in the building attached to the prison, but the other side of the gate. And they could come in on their release, get clothes for nothing, phone up the benefits agencies to set up claims. Personally, for me, it was just the routine that got me back, you know, and in mindset, you can either do the hard time or take it to your advantage. How's life now for you? Prison is only a part of your sentence. I've been out over three years now, but my sentence still carries with me because every time I apply for a job, I have to declare things like that. I managed to get a job last

year, but obviously because of the pandemic, I got furloughed in April, got made redundant in September and it will more than likely take me another few years to get another job purely because I have to declare this on my thing you know and it goes for so many women. When I was released, I had the picture taken with the governor at the time, but I asked specifically to have my face pixeled out because obviously I've got family and I don't want it carrying around for me. But I can honestly say that the officers were just as upset as the prisoners. Melanie Abbott talking to the very last prisoner to leave Holloway Prison. And she also talked to campaigner Lucy from the group Reclaim Holloway.

Now, if you missed any of the live editions of Women's Hour last week, and there was a conversation on Thursday with the head of the National Students Union. Also on Friday, you'll have heard from the university's minister, both talking about how university life has been, particularly for students in their first term. Not easy for many of them. Lots of people having a tough time, though not everyone. And also a conversation in that mix about the mass testing,

which is due to start in some university campuses next week to allow students to come home safely. So that was from Woman's Hour on Thursday and Friday of last week. You can go to BBC Sounds of course and hear all the programmes in podcast form and there's additional content every single day. That usually consists of me blundering around conversationally and some of your emails being read out. Some people say it can be quite entertaining. So make sure you get the Woman's Hour podcast if you're not able to hear the programme live. Now, the fourth series of the Netflix show, The Crown, has been busy introducing a whole new generation to Princess Diana, to her struggles in particular

with the eating disorder bulimia. On Friday, I talked to Jenny Bond, former BBC royal correspondent, and to Ali Pantani, who's 28 and works for Glamour magazine, and Ali has had bulimia. I asked her how much she'd known before she watched The Crown about Diana. Myself and my generation didn't know an awful lot about Diana. I think we knew the basics but we and I think a lot of us actually remember when she died but her actual story in her life before that I personally didn't know a lot about it the new series of The Crown has really opened

up my eyes to her story and everything that she went through so The Crown has what filled in the gaps for you yes I'd say so. Yeah, quite realistically, I hear. Right. Well, we'll find out about that in a minute. I just wonder which particular aspects of the way her story is covered in The Crown has really struck you. Well, it's definitely her eating disorder, her battle with bulimia, which the show prefaced with a trigger warning, so you know it's going to be quite graphic. But it's certainly the most realistic portrayal of that I've seen on TV,

and I had no idea that that's the extent to which she went through that. And you, I know, have been through it yourself. You believe it is effective, the way it's dealt with in this series of The Crown? I think it's the most accurate portrayal I've seen of bulimia on TV, and I'm grateful that they haven't shied away from it. You know, when we usually see bulimia, it's glossed over, the camera cuts away, you hear someone retching, the toilet flushes, two seconds later, an actress emerges, and then it's like nothing happened. You know, that kind of representation kind of downplays this illness.

It does nothing to destigmatize it, especially something that is still so shrouded in misconception and stigma to downplay it like that doesn't help people understand it so you know in the crown we witness diana's binge purge cycle in quite a lot of graphic detail the way it becomes her coping mechanism during upsetting and triggering times for her so you know it can be difficult to watch especially someone that's been through it and also for So, you know, it can be difficult to watch, especially as someone that's been through it. And also for people that, you know, have no idea what it's like.

It's upsetting to watch, but it should be. Yes. Because, you know, this is real and it's happening to people all the time. If it leads to greater understanding, then that's a win, isn't it? That's good. Jenny, obviously, I know you knew Diana.

You spent time, just the two of you, I gather, chatting. Did you know about her bulimia? Oh, yes. By the time I had those long sessions with her at Kensington Palace, it was very well known. I mean, you have to remember, maybe in the next series, The Crown will get to it. In 1993, she made a speech in which she didn't speak, she didn't admit it, she was talking about herself but she said i have it on very good authority the quest for perfection in our society those demands can leave individuals gasping for breath and she spoke about the self-revulsion the low personal esteem that can lead to someone wanting to dissolve like a disc spring well we all knew she was talking about

herself so by the time i had long chat with her in 1995, a couple of years later, I asked her about it. And she said she now had it under control. But it had plagued her for probably a decade. Yes, just listening there to you recount that speech she made back in 1993. That is a very 21st century speech, isn't it? When you listen to those words, that's a speech that could be made now in the social media age. Yeah, yeah. I mean, she said Bulimia was a shameful friend and a refuge from having to face more painful issues at the centre of our lives. I mean, Freddie Flintoff did a brilliant documentary quite recently about his battle with it. So it is ongoing. But I think Ali's right that there still is a stigma about it. And this is the first graphic portrayal, I think, of someone retching down the toilet bowl that I think there's been.

But do you understand, Jenny, why young women like Ali have fastened on to Diana? I suppose for precisely the reason I've just outlined, that some of the things she was saying back in the 90s are things that are being said today. And sometimes people think they're saying them for the first time. But Diana was living this and saying this decades ago. She was, yes. And, you know, you and I lived through those years and reported on them. And so it was really odd to suddenly discover a few years ago that when I said Diana, instead of everyone knowing

exactly who I was talking about, they'd say, who? Even my own daughter, who's 30, actually, paid very little attention to Diana through all those years. And I think this series has sparked a new interest. And it's really important, I think, that they understand the woman she was. But I would also say that every character, I think,

in The Crown has quite understandably been exaggerated. There is artistic license used by Peter Morgan. And of course, there would be. I mean, I don't think the royal family were half as cruel as they made out. Charles was not such a demon as portrayed. And I don't think Diana was as strong as she's portrayed in her early years, at least. She grew to be strong, but I'm not sure she would have stood up to the courtiers in quite the way we see in those early episodes. So we know there are trigger warnings about the show's depiction of bulimia. Do you think, Jenny, you could justify some sort of announcement saying parts of this drama are completely fictionalised? Please, please understand that when you watch. Yes, I think that will be helpful

because reading social media, as I have in the last few days, people are being vindictive about Charles and Camilla. And I think it's really important that young people remember that, yes, this is broadly a reflection of what happened in this very unhappy marriage, but it is a drama. This is not a documentary. So just important to remember that, I think. Ali, do you think, honestly, talking to your peers,

that everybody does get that? I think so. I think, you know, I think people realise that it is a drama and, of course, Diana is not here to, you know, guide the producers and tell them exactly what happened. So especially with her. But I think people are aware that it's a TV show. It needs to attract an audience. And, you know, I think it's very easy, especially with the portrayal of Charles and Camilla in terms of what Diana went through.

It's quite easy to sit there and be angry at them and think, God, what an awful way to treat such a young woman. But I think you do always have to remind yourself, you know, I'm sure they didn't say those exact words, you know. It's not, as we say, it's not a documentary. Well, has it actually started an interest in the royal family that perhaps just was largely absent or perhaps was sparked again by the arrival of Meghan Markle, who, of course, has now departed these shores?

But tell me about that, Ali. I think so. I personally didn't know an awful lot about the royal family until before the crown. I think Diana was always the one I kind of cared about a bit more, just knowing, as I said, basics about her story. Yeah, the royal family in general just... I don't speak for everyone, it's just my experience,

but it was just something that never really interested me. You know, it wasn't, you know, sort of abolish the monarchy, but it wasn't, you know, hanging on their every word and wanting to learn about it. But since the crown and particularly since this season, it's been something that I've certainly got more interested in. How much, though, has really been learned, Jenny, when you think about what the Duchess of Sussex has said this week about her miscarriage, and she's written a very moving article about it. And yes, she's had sympathy and support. But again, she's had criticism and there's been vitriol. Have we

really moved on? Well, I'm afraid social media has a large part to play. The vitriol that is spouted against Meghan Markle and against the Cambridges, the war now we have between the Cambridges and Sussex's supporters and fans, is hideous. I mean, if I say anything about the Duchess of Sussex, Meghan, you know, I've been called a white racist whore for just suggesting the mildest criticism. It's very unpleasant, the social media response to Meghan. But I do think that we have there a young woman who found it equally as Fergie did, as Diana did.

Very difficult, as Prince Philip did. Very difficult to because she was untainted and given a role to which she wasn't suited and with a man who loved somebody else? I mean, when you actually say those words, it was clearly not going to work, was it? Being under so much pressure to transform into somebody that she wasn't, betrothed to a man she barely knew. And then as I believe she herself had trapped in a very unhappy marriage, like you say, with a man that was clearly in love with somebody else. It really is no wonder that she developed bulimia. Because, you know, when your life is spiralling so out of your control and you have no control over anything, bulimia and other eating disorders give you that semblance of control.

So, you know, it's really no wonder when you think of everything that she was going through. And she was 19. It's so young to have all that immense pressure. Ali Pantani, and you also heard from the BBC's former royal correspondent, Jenny Bond. Well, that implied that Jenny's not regal anymore. She certainly is. Now, have you ever thought about the link between food and identity? Chef and writer Marie Mitchell co-founded

the Island Social Club. She really wanted a place for second and third generation British people of Caribbean descent to connect with their heritage. Here she is. Food for me is just a massive vehicle. There's something so beautiful about breaking bread with people that you can really find ways in which to connect. And also just engage in discussion that's not always necessarily easy but I think because it's a commonality that we all share that we have to sustain ourselves with food that we're able to actually engage in conversations

that's sometimes more challenging or to just really delve within yourself and you know food is incredibly political and what's so beautiful about what features on your plate is it's a chance to actually understand history. And obviously then with that, you're able to then also engage in your own culture as well. So it's just a really beautiful metaphor almost of what's gone on before. You're a chef, but have you noticed there aren't very many cookery books written by black women? Why do you think that is? There's a lack of, I think, Caribbean cookbooks in general,

but I also think, yeah, we're really massively underrepresented in the market. And I just think it's a misconception that it's partly related to the fact that people assume that there isn't a market for it when I think it's the exact opposite. I do really believe that there are some amazing people that are doing things at the moment. I think things are changing. And I do really believe that there are some amazing people that are doing things at the moment. I think things are changing. And I do hope that within the next couple of years, we really will see a difference within that sphere, because it's important that we're able to tell our own stories, because I think plenty of people want to hear them. Why do you think, Marie, that food is so important to diaspora communities? When you move from a place, there is a sense of belonging that you're always drawn back to.

And I think food is an opportunity for you to always connect to that. You know, for me, my two food heroes are both my dad and my grandma in that they are the two people that have probably been the most influential in terms of why I love food as much as I do. And through cooking, particularly with my grandma, it's an opportunity for me to kind of hear the stories that I wouldn't necessarily be exposed to. So I think what makes it so important is it's a chance to kind of own who you are, your own identity, your sense of like your rootedness. I think it's a really good way to think about it. It's like it roots you back to sort of where you've come from

and sort of understanding where like the evolution that's happened within your culture, but also within yourselves and within your families it's it really draws you back to that understanding that's really interesting you say that uh that uh it's your dad it's my dad as well just out of interest but yeah you know very interesting you say that now look we've got to get to uh cooking or talking about cooking this perfect roti. Tell me what it is and then go into how you briefly make it. So it's an unleavened flatbread. And I always say you make it with love because it's definitely one of those things that I find I just become just mesmerised by.

So it's the same sort of process you have initially with bread you need it and then resting you separate it out into balls and then you rest again and then this is my favorite part you actually then roll it into like a circle and you essentially make these cones and it's a beautiful way in which you then get all the layers in because you let that sit for an hour you can do it overnight or freeze them and then when you roll it out you have to be quite gentle to make sure you don't lose all those layers. And when you cook it, it just sort of falls apart. And this is the particular type of roti I'm talking about here is called bust up shirt.

So it's which refers to kind of bust up shirt, because when you cook it, you then also have to beat it up. So it looks as if it's falling apart. And then you kind of lift it and you can see all this flakiness. And it's just it's just absolutely delicious and a great way to mop up curries and delicious baked eggs. That does sound amazing, doesn't it? That was Marie Mitchell talking to presenter Nicola Beckford on Women's Hour this week. And you can, of course, download the Cook the Perfect podcast via, you guessed it, BBC Sounds. Now, have you been bickering a little bit more in lockdown? Who hasn't been bickering more in lockdown, honestly?

We talked this week about lockdown bickering amongst partners, perhaps people who've been together quite a long time. Deborah Marshall volunteered to take part. She's a listener from Pembrokeshire, and she freely admits to bickering with her partner, Gary. I talked too to Penny Mansfield, an expert on relationships from the relationships charity One Plus One. I asked Penny how people are faring during lockdown when it comes to the petty bickery stuff. We are contained in ways that we weren't because of Covid, which means it restricts the amount of other contacts we have

besides our nearest and dearest who may not be as dear as they are near. And I think that affects everybody, whether you happen to be in your 20s, living with a partner, whether you're with a young family, whether you're a couple who are just enjoying the children leaving the nest, although if they've gone off to university, they'll be back again pretty quickly.

Or, you know, you're nearing retirement or you're elderly and you're having to deal with the added impact of physical and mental frailty. Let's bring in, Deborah, you wrote, I have to say, a very insightful and funny email to us, Deborah, about your situation. You and your partner moved to a different part of Wales, didn't you? Well, you could argue precisely the wrong time. Yes, we moved in June of this year, which meant basically we hadn't had any opportunity to meet any of the people in the village for any great length of time. We don't see a great many people because of where we are physically in Pembrokeshire. So yes, it's not been the best time, I suppose, to make a new start in a new town. Yeah, I'm just going to quote here from your email. I realise that the bickering between me and my husband had reached an all-time nadir

when I found myself secretly flicking the V's at him as I stomped up the stairs, silently cursing him with each step. A surprisingly satisfying, if ultimately empty, gesture as he sat in the living room, immobile, unoccupied, static again. Okay, I mean, you're very honest. You're also happy to acknowledge that yours is not the most serious situation, is it, Deborah, thankfully? Yes. And I think I've been a bit unfair to Gary there. He's not always immobile and static. So what has your solution been to all this? Well, I found myself a job. We retired in 2017. I was a teacher.

And as soon as I got to the age of 55, I thought, that's it, I'm done. I'm leaving work. I'll never work again. And now I've decided that I'm going to become what's called a housekeeping assistant rather than a cleaner in a holiday park for 11 precious hours a week. Right. When we'll be able to have some space between us. Well, some space. And also then you'll have something to say when you come back. Well, exactly, because we tend to hear news and gossip when we're together now. So in the evening, there's no sort of,

well, what have you learned today time? So hopefully I'll be meeting some new people and I'll be bringing something fresh to the table each evening. Yeah, that's an important point, isn't it, Penny? It is hard to think of stuff to talk about at the moment. Well, yes, that isn't about Covid and how we're responding to it. Yeah, and this thing of being able to get out.

I mean, even if you're just sort of, you know, going for a walk around the park and you're going together and observing what others are doing it's about something that stimulates you to think about something other than just um you know being being together i suppose you're talking about your memories and i think that's quite interesting um i mean bickering is the stuff of many sitcoms um some very good ones actually already before and often that is about thinking about getting older and thinking about the past in a good way. That can often be ways in which people can deal with humour. And actually, it brings back some touching, good memories to share. And obviously, maybe phone calls to old friends and things like that.

And then talking about what you've been talking about. Yes. We need to acknowledge, actually, that bickering is both rather an intimate thing to do and it's a performative thing to do as well, isn't it Penny? Yes, and I think the thing is, I mean bickering, you know, it is the stuff of life but also it can verge into some fairly unkind and nasty kind of behavior. And I suppose the key things is to bicker better, really. And I think we would say from all of our work looking at conflict in relationships, the first thing is to try and resist the attacks, which are all about the problem with you or just the silent treatment, and to actually speak for yourself and say something like, you know, I'm feeling this.

And I find that when I feel like this, it helps if you could be and have those kinds of conversations and trying to focus on what is our issue. I mean, our issue probably is that we're finding it difficult together. So what could we do about it? What would make it work better for each of us? Yes. I think you would say, Deborah, that you acknowledge that neither you nor your partner think of yourselves as chief bickerer. You both think it's the other one who gets things started. Yes. That's the trouble with bickering, that each of the bickerers believes themselves to be the non-bickerer. I'm definitely not the one who is awkward or dense or picky. I'm the one who just wants to get things done. And if Gary were more like me, we'd never bicker. There we are. That's problem solved. OK, I just want to bring another email in from a listener who says, I think this is very interesting. And thank you, by the way, to the people who took the time to email us on this one.

My husband and I have solved the problem of bickering in lockdown by designating Wednesdays as row day. Any disagreements are scheduled to be fought over on Wednesday. So around this time tomorrow, they'll be getting going. By the time Wednesday comes around, we've forgotten what we were unhappy about or it has become insignificant. Often we forget about it until Thursday, by which time it's too late anyway.

We began this system in March and actually it is working for us. OK, that's good. This from somebody else who says, Our relationship has changed for the better and the worse, cooped up together since March in a mix of endless groundhog days and new discoveries uncomfortably colliding. I've discovered he's adopted many of the traits we traditionally associate with mothers who quotes don't work. He's frustrated at being stuck at home, seems to shout at the children more readily and is more irritable than I remember him being when he used to leave for the office every day. We are definitely more ragged with each other. But then sometimes magic happens and we'll have a quickie while the kids are at school. This has happened all of three times, she says.

But by turns, I have deduced I live with a tantrumy toddler, a horny teenager and a grumpy old man. He still makes me laugh, though, and I still love him both more and less than before. Penny, I think that's brilliant, that email. Yeah. And I think the thing about, I mean, don't we all live with grumpy old men? But I mean, I think that, and they probably say the same thing, but I think it's this thing about trying to find where there is humour and to try and keep that going. So can I ask you a question, Penny, about older couples, perhaps couples who really are, as you outlined at the beginning, having to spend so much more time together than they might have been used to in the past,

perhaps feeling frail, perhaps actually being frail. Is there any advice for people who perhaps might be entering the seventh decade of married life at this time? Well, I think that thing about physical and mental frailty is that for the person who's more afflicted, that obviously requires the other partner to suppress some of the kind of irritations, to stop taking over the whole thing about resentment and then where does all that go? And maybe having somebody that as a friend that they can talk to where they can feel that they can express all these very conflicting emotions that they don't have to be extremely challenging to the person that has to focus on them, which is why not being able to have people who, you know, places where people can go. And I think this thing about finding the ways in which you can be away from each other, you know, whether it is the allotment or, you know, it's planting bulbs or it's, you know, going up four times a day to the local do-it-yourself shop to buy nails you don't need. I don't know. But we need to find the freedoms that actually can keep us going. Joy says, this is on Twitter, just laughed out loud at the excellent bickering systems explained by couples on Women's Hour. My favourite so far, definitely Row Wednesday.

That could be one you could take up, Deborah. What about that? Yes, maybe. You don't sound very sure, to be honest. No, I seem to like the ongoingness of it throughout the week. I really like Deborah. She was great. And by the way, Gary, her husband, he sounded great too.

She got the opportunity to sing his praises and she did during that live programme. So if you missed any of that, that was from Tuesday's edition of Woman's Hour. Anne says, all our partners and husbands need to do is just simply what they're told and then there's absolutely no reason to bicker.

I think, Anne, you speak for many there with that pearl of wisdom. Marion says, we're getting on better ever since I've allocated the husband a staff toilet. From Gabrielle, let's not think about that too hard. Gabrielle says, my husband is stuck abroad and we haven't seen each other since February.

I would love to have that problem of having him stuck at home, bickering with me. And from Brenda, my husband and I celebrate our 50th wedding anniversary on Saturday. Neither of us is frail, just a bit creaky. We get on really well with no difference compared to BC, that's before COVID. Throughout our marriage, he has refused to bicker. I have a short fuse, but his method is far superior. There we go. That's how Brenda and her husband have made it work. A lesson there for all of us, I'm sure.

Thank you very much for listening. Have a reasonable weekend in the circumstances. And Woman's Hour is back live two minutes past ten on Monday morning. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.