Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Peggy Seeger, Exam Stress, Candice Carty-Williams

Episode Date: May 7, 2022

Emma talks to Peggy Seeger who has enjoyed six decades of success with her music. Peggy was married to the singer Ewen McColl. Together they revitalised the British Folk Scene during the 50s and 60s. Now 86 years old, Peggy's own songs have become anthems for feminists, anti-nuclear campaigners and those fighting for social justice.Exam season is upon us - Highers have begun in Scotland and A-levels and GCSEs start on the 16th May, but maybe your kids have end of year exams coming up too. As a parent what is the best way to support your child? Anita is joined by Dr Jane Gilmour, a Consultant Clinical Psychologist at Great Ormond Street Hospital.Candice Carty-Williams described her very successful first novel Queenie as 'the black Bridget Jones'. She has described her new novel People Person as her ‘daddy issues’ book and in it she celebrates families of all sorts. Her aim, she says, is to make visible the people she knows and the experiences she has had.As Anne Robinson announces she's stepping down as the host of the Channel 4 quiz show Countdown, Emma Barnett catches up with her. Robinson was the first female to ever host the show, with 265 episodes under her belt since she joined just a year ago.It’s been just over a year since the former husband of ITV presenter Ruth Dodsworth was jailed for coercive controlling behaviour and stalking. In a new ITV Tonight programme ‘Controlled By My Ex Partner: The Hidden Abuse' Ruth explores the crime of coercive control and what needs to be done to stop it.Milli Proust, writer and floral designer in West Sussex, and Georgie Newbery, a flower farmer, discuss the growing trend of cut flower gardening.Sex Parties have gone from being fringe underground raves to large, well-established sell-out club nights, in the last few years. We hear from Dr Kate Lister, Sex Historian and Author of A Curious History of Sex and Miss Gold - who runs One Night Parties, a sex party in London.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Every Saturday we helpfully round up some of the must-hear interviews from the week just gone. Coming up, TV presenter Anne Robinson speaks openly about her own experience with abortion. The award-winning author Candice Carty-Williams talks to us about her new book and the dynamics of family and cut flower gardening. You a fan? Do you even know what it is? Well, you will after today's programme. But first, on Bank Holiday Monday, we explored the history of women and folk music. One of our guests was Peggy Seeger,

who's enjoyed six decades of success with her music. Together, Peggy, with her late husband, Ewan McCall, revitalised the British folk scene during the 50s and 60s. Now 86 years old, Peggy's own songs have become anthems for feminists, anti-nuclear campaigners and those fighting for social justice. Peggy started by telling Emma what makes folk music so special. Other people can express what they endure and what their life is like better than you can. A third party saying this happened to so-and-so, this happened to so-and-so doesn't cut it for me because they will always go to different ways of speaking different words and a different emotion. So I make songs out of other people's words,

but I always say that I got them there. Yes, and it's storytelling, you know, at the heart of it. And actually, though, even though it sounds very, you know, sing-song there, there's anger, there's annoyance in that, isn't there? Well, a lot of folk songs do sound sing-song because they use the same tune over and over and over with very little embellishment. And that's on purpose. They want you to listen to the words. And if they send you home with an earworm, that's great. There's a strategy there within folk to get you to hear

the story. Well, the folk songs before probably 1900s, most working class people, and that's where folk songs come from, they come originally from the working class, most of them, almost all, were not literate. So music was the way of transferring information and culture. And these are really works of art, and they were transmitted from mouth to ear, ear to mouth. Talking about this perhaps stereotype of women folk singers in floaty dresses, as I mentioned, perhaps romping around a flower meadow or fields, that's quite a departure from many of your protest songs and what you're known for. A lot of us female folk singers have stood against that. Way back in the early days of my starting to work in feminist things, I made a lecture called The Image of Women in Anglo-American Folk Songs, in the early days of my starting to work in feminist things, I made a lecture called The Image of Women in Anglo-American Folk Songs, because that's all I sing, Anglo-American.

And these are white, of course. They don't speak about black experience. And I was horrified when I started analyzing the image and the position of women. Women as property of her parents until a man takes her over. Women as unclaimed property, poor old maids. Women loved and left. Women as a victim. Women's view of men as fickle, opportunist, cruel, but necessary for a woman to have a man. Men's view of women, they would do anything to get hold of a man. They say pregnancy is a form of blackmail. Women

is powerless. I mean, in the folk songs, things happen to women. Women on the whole don't do things. Another image is sleep with a man and you'll always get pregnant. If you sleep with a man, you're a fallen woman. Then there's the mother-in-law. The mother-in-law. The wife's mother is always to poke fun at. When I was a kid, I learned one about mother-in-law. The mother-in-law. The wife's mother is always to poke fun at. When I was a kid, I learned one about mother-in-law. My life is all trouble, no pleasure I see. Wherever I go, that old lady watches me. I'd rather be drug off to jail or to Congress than live all my life with my mother-in-law. And if you read my memoir, First Time Ever, you'll know that my mother-in-law, Ewan's mother, lived in our house for 16 years. Did you used to sing her that song?

No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't dream it. She was menacing. Well, no, you make a very good point though, I suppose, when you start to look through this, and of course, I jest about you singing her that song, because the whole point of you bringing it up was about the stereotypes and the very, very narrow way women were defined or made fun of. But for you, you've taken that tradition and you've changed it. And some have described you not just as a feminist, but as an eco-feminist. It's the road we've all gone from conserving what we've got to environmentalism, which usually means human environment. Then it's to recycling things,

and then it's to identification with nature. And so women work more with nature naturally. We give birth, and we don't kill so easily as men do. So I became an ecofeminist, and then deep ecology, which says unless we bond with nature, we're finished. And women are vital to that. But there's been a number of women who have written songs all along. It's just that mine happened to take off because it's kind of like a folk song. I think also you are synonymous with certain moments in our history, not least the Greenham Common protests. My main song about Greenham is Carry Greenham Home.

Yes. Is it true that you keep a bit of the wire on your mantelpiece? I've got it, yeah. It was sent to me by a friend who went when they took the fence down. Greenham Common really was a turning point for me with bonding with other women, because when you're in a heterosexual relationship, especially where the man is stuck in movement politics, which is unions, big industry, and all of that, which Ewan McCall was. He loved big industry because that was what

he was born and brought up with. But we've got to get past that. So Greenham Common bonded me with women and I started making women friends, which I didn't have when I was with Ewan. I did also want to bring up your latest album, First Farewell. There's a wonderful track called The Invisible Woman about growing older and not being seen. And this is a theme we have discussed on Women's Hour. And often, you know, a lot of our listeners get in touch about this. Tell me a bit more about that. Well, the song Invisible Woman was made with my son, Neil,

who at age 62 feels invisible. It's beginning to feel invisible to young women, I believe. Do you feel invisible? Well, it's when nobody knows I'm a singer, I do feel invisible and I love it. Really? Younger women don't even notice you. Men pointedly look past you.

I think older men are afraid of us, to be quite honest. Well, we see you clearly on Woman's Hour, Peggy. She's still got it. The singer and activist Peggy Seeger. And if you missed our special programme on folk music, you can listen back now on BBC Sounds. Exam season is upon us. Stress, sleepless nights, butterflies in your tummy and that's just the parents.

Hires have begun in Scotland and A-levels and GCSEs start on the 16th of May. As a parent, what is the best way to support your child, especially if they have important exams looming but are doing everything they can to pretend they don't? Or perhaps you have the opposite problem and your child is paralysed with anxiety. How do you engage the teenage brain and support your child with their revision? To give you some advice about how to get through this tough time, I spoke to Dr. Jane Gilmore, a consultant clinical psychologist at Great Ormond Street Hospital, and Jane started by telling me exactly what the teenage brain is. Well, it's a great question because the teenage brain is unique. As soon as you hit puberty, the brain is marinated in these pubertal hormones and it means that the brain changes state, right?

It's different from the brain of a younger child and it's different from the brain of an adult. And so those teenage years, and actually in terms of brain science, up until the age of 25, the brain is developing in an extraordinary way. It's a learning machine. There are some unique drives that we need to know about as the adult supporting the teenager, so that we can capitalise on them and make sure that they reach their potential. So some of these drives might include a search for novelty. A really key drive is about getting integrated into the peer group, a search for identity, thinking about independence and autonomy. and join hands and learn from one another so that this young person can ride on the crest of a wave

and get through this learning period whether that be life skills or you know content in terms of exams and make the most of that period of time yeah there's a lot of conflicting stuff going on isn't there if you want to to be out there experimenting and doing all the novelty stuff and fitting in with your friends and if your friends are out there lots to get into um okay message has just come in um and i think this is going to be relevant to possibly quite a few people. Someone has just said, OK, so here we've got a teenager that says she can't revise or won't revise. I'm not sure which that might be.

So the first thing is to find out what's going on here. Now, there's an old saying, never ask a question unless you're prepared to hear the answer. And that's a really important message to have in your family framework. You need to know what's going on. So is this young person frightened about the idea of getting engaged because it feels like a big hill to climb? Or do they not know where to start? You know, there's a huge, let's imagine GCSEs.

There's a lot of content there and it's an organisational issue. So you want to ask the question with genuine curiosity, what is it that's stopping you getting going? Now, one of the key things we know about the teenage brain is that they respond really well to a consultative model. This is part of their drive towards being independent. So I would ask that young person, so what is it that's stopping you getting going today what is

it what do you think the hardest thing would be ask them to write their timetable ask them to say what would the hardest thing to do in terms of your timetable getting back on track let's say ask me what I should do as the parent supporting you in order to keep to your plan. So all of those things are taking a consultative role in order to make them the architect of their own platform, let's say, and that can often get things going. But it might also be a question of organisation, it could be an issue of not getting hold of the notes, you know, you need to know what's going on there. So if you ask the question, make sure you stay calm and allow them to keep talking, because that way you will hear more about the issue in hand. If you start to yell, actually the teenage brain, in fact, any of our brains would see that as a threat. And well, the end of that tweet was makes me crazy.

So I'm kind of, you know, you're saying get into the consultative model to have a discussion. But if you're crazy, how do you need to kind of train your own brain to get to that? So try not to let that emotion bleed into the conversation with your teenager. It's OK to feel those emotions, but take them to your partner and your friend. Let them all hang out, sort through them with that adult context. And then once you're clear headed and calm, go back into negotiations with your young person. Helen in Essex says is it really possible to discuss exams without mentioning Covid how it's taken out so

many pupils and staff recently so revision is disrupted this for a lot of young people sitting their A-levels this will be the first time they've ever sat an exam. And that's true so for the year 13 kids who are doing A-levels in England and Wales, they haven't had any gateway exams before. And so I think there is some anxiety, certainly in the families I'm talking to in work and so on, that they haven't had the experience of GCSEs. Will they be OK? I think it's worth bearing in mind that many young people around the world have only one set of gateway exams. And in fact, there's a little bit of a push in the education and neuroscience community to rethink GCSEs in their entirety. So that's one thing to bear in mind. I think the second thing is, and it sort of comes back to the question we were discussing before, is, is the young person anxious or is the parent anxious? Because the strategies would be very different

depending on where the anxiety lies. And look, you know, as parents, we all hold some anxiety about these, you know, exam periods, because we are looking forward into the future and young people are more likely to be in the moment. So there is an element of that. So I think I would want to think about that a little bit and recognise that COVID did have an impact on attainment, particularly in the primary school years rather than secondary school years. And young people in socio- socioeconomic disadvantage did fall behind further than they had already. And that is the message of Covid somewhat. You know, those disadvantages that existed were somewhat, you know, polarised and magnified.

And that's true in education and true in mental health and other areas. So what do you do with an incredibly anxious child? So I think the first thing to notice about anxiety is perpetual reassurance rarely helps. I would get practical about this. Now, three things we know help in terms of learning material is having a bit of wakeful rest. So a short period of active learning and then a rest. Good quality sleep. It's the glue of the memory.

And also to think about learning in a calm environment. So if you get that information across to a young conscientious person so that they have a realistic timetable that's not overwhelming, they will take that on board. I think the other thing to recognise is what's the message at home? You know, is the first question you ask when they come in the door, how was the test? What was your mark? What did everyone else get? You are somehow giving them the message that academic work is your priority. Now, of course, exams are important. But if you ask any parent, the only thing they care about is that their kid is all right. So think about the messages that you're giving. You know, you can be fabulous and not perfect. You know, it's something you might say out loud and act out and talk about in words and actions. Praise a very conscientious kid for taking a break, for seeing their friends, for looking after themselves. And holding that

balance and that perspective is really one of our key tasks as a parent, really. Here's an email that's come through that actually is quite interesting and specific saying my son is studying towards his GCSEs but tends to eat too much he seems to need it for psychological support what shall I do? Well sometimes eating can be a way of blocking out emotions and one might hypothesise that it's pretty anxiety provoking time so that could be that could be around you know we all do this you, I know when I'm writing a book, I make tea, you know, I stop and I make tea instead of, you know, writing what I should be writing. So it might be that he's got into a little habit of eating in order, you know, instead, you know, in the context of his study time. So I would put

the food out of the room and it's great to be out the room mix it up get away from his desk and so then you can really make him be conscious about what he's eating not in a punitive way but in a way to say look just stop and you have a walk by the time you get down to the kitchen you know you might have thought of something else to do and I think do keep an eye on it because you know it's part of a healthy eating plan is a good idea too. And there'll be teenagers listening very quickly, Jane. Cramming. Can they do it? Is it a thing? Does the brain absorb information as you're walking down the corridor towards the exam room? Right, one part of me, you know, the evidence is a well rested, calm, well, you know, well fed brain in a positive mindset is the best circumstance in which to engage with an exam. And also in extremis, it's never too late. And speaking from experience, sometimes it can be

too late. That was Dr. Jane Gilmore. And if you and your children are gearing up for exam season, we wish you the best of luck. Now, the author Candice Carty-Williams is back with her highly anticipated second novel. She described the hugely successful and much celebrated first novel Queenie as the black Bridget Jones. It told the story of 25-year-old South Londoner Queenie trying to make her way in the world against all the odds. The book sold more than half a million copies and in 2020 it won Book of the Year at the British Book Awards, making her the first black author and black female author to win the award since its inception. Now, her new novel, People Person, looks at the complexity of family relationships and in particular, the role of fathers.

The father in this book is a man called Cyril. When Emma spoke to Candice, she started by describing who Cyril is. Cyril is not based on my own dad, but he's based on dads like mine and around mine who have a number of children and they don't know how to look after them or how to be dads. And that's something that I and many people like me have had to work out and kind of work out themselves and do that work to do. Because I guess when you're a kid you just kind of expect your parents to be there and when they're not and when there is one key figure who's not you're kind of turning on yourself and so this book was an exploration of that. Did you want to explore because I thought at first and I don't want to give anything away

that it would be a lot about trying to understand him but it moves quite quickly to try and understand his children and how his absence has affected their lives did you find yourself you know really wanting to to understand that role from his perspective for sure but I think it was more important to see for me these these five children and and how they how they how they were and how they moved through the world and what it meant to to not have this this key. And so it was how they were in themselves, but also how they interact with each other and then ultimately how they interact with Cyril himself. Yes, and there's a case where he asks one of his children, Dimple,

a character that is at the heart of this, for money. You know, there's a role reversal there when she gets what he perceives as a little bit of success. Yes. Role reversal is quite an interesting thing that you also explore. No, absolutely, because I think there is so often we as young people, we end up becoming our parents or parenting our parents. And that's definitely the case for me and a lot of people that I know.

And there is something so uncomfortable and so strange about that. And again, it's stuff that we kind of have to work through for ourselves. And that's what I find really challenging. And I think that's why I had to write this novel because I was always trying to make sense of having to have been a parent when I was like a kid and then like what does that mean for me in adulthood and like kind of like carrying myself and carrying myself through everything that I do and being like there is no one really like my mum is really cool but I mean you know imagine having two parents who were just congratulating you on stuff.

That doesn't happen. And it's like- Having that infrastructure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Do you feel, because I've seen it in an interview that you talked about when you started to become successful

that your dad did ask you for some money. And how did you navigate that? Did you find it something you could deal with having tried to do some of that work or were you not there yet? No, actually, I found that incredibly tough. I found it really, really hard because I remember I'd sent him my very first review of Queenie. It was from Kirkus Reviews in America. And he just didn't reply.

Like I sent it to him. It was on WhatsApp and he has like blue ticks and he just didn't reply. Like I sent it to him. He had, it was on WhatsApp and he has like blue ticks and he just didn't reply. And then I said to him, wait, did you read it? And he just said, no. And I was like,

oh, okay. Right. And then later on the question of like money came up and I was like, but the money is from the thing and you can't even like it. I remember just being like, it would literally be easy for you to pretend that you cared about this and that you engage in this and me

because, like, do you not want to do that? Because then, like, surely then I would give you money. But he just wasn't even interested in, like, the facade of caring at all. So, yeah. I think what's interesting about the way you've drawn this character, and I know you probably loathe people always saying, is it all about you? You've got creative licence way you've drawn this character, and I know you probably loathe people always saying, is it all about you?

You've got creative licence, you've created those. But is that you aren't, you don't pull any punches about that. There are other examples of such behaviour where you want somehow them to be redeemed. You want there to be a nice, sort of sweet way of that being OK in the end because there was a reason that day they didn't read the review or there was a reason they didn't remember to call you and you don't pull any punches on that why do you think that's important because it's real and I try and be as real as possible in my

writing and also in in my life um because I think that we have I guess limited time you know we all do and I think it's important for all of those relationships that we have to be as as as I guess as legit as possible and I try and do that in my writing too because it's like as much as as it's fiction I also like to create something that is so close to real life that people can find themselves in it and can understand and it's sometimes what the characters are going through and people person hasn't been out for very long but I've already had so many messages from people being like oh my god I never thought anyone would write about a family like mine and that's important because that's why I do what I do. I must feel pretty good. Yeah it was great. Well also you've

described the book you said it's time to write a book just about black people in the sense of that's part of it but not the whole thing but it's the story I imagine that's what you're talking about. Yeah because Queenie was was in response to whiteness. Queenie is all about this girl trying to straddle two cultures. And one of those cultures is white culture. She's trying and failing very often at this newspaper that is run by white people. She's trying to talk about black stories and they're not interested. She's dating white men and how they're treating her and her body is failing her and her mental health.

And it was time to, I've done that now. I know I've worked that through, I've worked that through myself. And now it's time to be like, OK, cool, let's focus on this family of black people. And it felt good. Yeah, well, I mean, you touched upon this as well. And it's a theme in some of the characters as well. You know, you've got the older tough sisters trying to look out for everyone but you touched upon it there about having to grow up too too early really and I'm just minded of some of the stories we've covered on the program especially

about black girls and adultification which I find quite hard to say but it's an important theme for instance there was a story of child Q I don't know if you saw this of a black girl being strip searched by police officers in a London school, just to remind our listeners. And then last week there was a report by the former children's commissioner calling out treating black boys and girls in particular like adults. Why do you think that happens more? And what do you, where have you come out on that? What's your view on that? Well, that's just, it's been happening to me since I was young.

And I always see all of these weird polls going around on Twitter asking, particularly young black women when they were first sexualised. And it's overwhelmingly sort of like the years of like 9 to 12. And I remember the same thing happening. And I think there was just this very strange disconnect that happens. And it's a big societal one that is pushed out constantly that black women are just always women from childhood and we do not have the the grace or the time to be young and to be to be children um i i wish i knew what the origins of that were but all i know is that it's very pervasive and it's it's very damaging and it's still happening

it's still happening all the time and i wrote about adultification in um in an essay that an essay collection that i contributed to because that's always been something that i've been very aware of and it is very it's always been very very affecting is there anything you would say to to young black girls let's say girls rather than women right you know that's what they are to try and navigate that have you learned any tools honestly i just i mean i do so much just, I mean, I do so much. This sounds so funny, but I do so much inner child work still all the time. And that is just-

On yourself? On myself, on myself. And that is a person that I've never really checked in with because since I was like, since I was, I think like eight, it was just time to grow up and to parent and also just to kind of be strong and to face everything. And it was like, whoa, there were so many years of my life where I was not allowed to be a kid.

And so now there is a part of me that I've got to kind of check in with. Would you say in your life, because obviously it might be slightly different depending on your context, was that around family members or was that around wider society? How did that play out? It started with family. And I think, you know, as I've said before, there is so much in in yes there is so much

in needing to think about and probably give attention to the damage that our families do I think that's really really important and you know I'm working through my stuff with with mine for sure how's that going oh my god how is it going it's not really going I think it I think my thing is this kind of distance you know I think that's kind of what I have to do to protect myself and that's important but I would say my advice would be of what I have to do to protect myself and that's important. But I would say my advice would be to know that you're a child and that is absolutely fine. And look after yourself in that space because you're not going to be a kid forever. And also friendship's a big part of what you've written about and I know what you care about.

And I'm very upset that one of the characters doesn't seem to have any friends. She just lives online. I know, but I think a lot of people do live online and they need to step away into the real world yeah it was just a moment when I realized yes she hasn't mentioned any of her friends at all because you make quite a lot of comments about how people live their lives online have you have you amended your behavior over the years because I think people when you naturally have used a platform for a long time and put something out about yourself because obviously it's important when you're starting out especially in something and trying to promote yourself depending on your line of work

but people and especially women have spoken about how they've changed what they put out there in the public square I think I'm quite lucky in that I don't really like I can tweet and then just never think about it again and I couldn't just that's a skill no I I do feel I feel but I feel very lucky because you know a lot of people are like I don't like that and... That is a skill. No, I do feel, but I feel very lucky because, you know, a lot of people are not like that. And same with any social media. I'm kind of like, that's not real. I could delete it and then, you know. What is real is your nan, a key person in your life.

Does she get you still buying the potatoes, doing all the jobs? Of course, absolutely. No, no, completely. She came to my book launch and she, I wear a lot of rings. I don't have any on today, but I wear a lot of rings on each finger. And as soon as she got there, she started like taking rings off and then trying them on her hands and be like, no, that one doesn't. No, that one. How about like, let me try that one on. She doesn't care about anything that I do. She's just like, you are my granddaughter and you are here to serve me. And that's absolutely right. I absolutely am. If there's one woman on this planet that I'm here to serve, it is Elaine Williams. Love that.

And I suppose when you become a grandmother, you've earned your right to be pampered a little bit, haven't you? The author Candice Carty-Williams there talking about the importance of her grandmother and shout out to all the elders. Now on Tuesday, the journalist, presenter and my former colleague, Anne Robinson, announced that she would be stepping down as the host of the Channel 4 quiz show Countdown. She's the sixth presenter of the programme, but the first female host.

Anne began her newspaper career as a journalist with the Daily Mail, but is probably most famous for hosting the BBC quiz show The Weakest Link. Emma started by asking Anne how she feels about leaving Countdown. It's the first time I've never had a job. It's also the first time I haven't seen a job on the horizon. I've given myself a really big talking to, and I'm 78 this year, and I've really got to learn about retirement. Do you want to retire, though?

I haven't got any practice at it. I have got absolutely no practice. Maybe I'll start doing social media. Well, I did say just before we came on air, are you on social media? Your response was priceless. Or not? Well, no one will pay me to be on social media.

You've always, always got to be paid, Emma. The lesson. The lesson. But I said you could become an influencer. People do make money through it. And your idea, I think, is genius. We can launch it here. We're going to teach women how to... What we're going to do, and you know, I marched so that your generation would all be really clever at negotiating your salaries and your pay. And you're all absolutely hopeless at it. So you're going to do this?

I mean, why? It's so easy. It's only a first. You know, there's about six steps to getting the money you want. But what happens is some bloke comes in with his friend and gives you the interview and says, we're going to pay you this, and you say, thank you very much. What you have to realise realize they go outside and

they do high fives because you've accepted the first offer well we've got a lot of work still on setting up your account and starting this business together but can i bring you back to countdown just for a minute because if you if this is really interesting if it is the first time no other job on the horizon yeah you've just quit why now why did you think after a year well to be fair I'd signed up for a year I think I've done 30 or 40 more than the year and I really thought this is silly because it eats into my time I mean it's wonderful but it is the other end of the country it um it just swallows up too much time and for the as I say for the first time I say, for the first time, I thought, you know, say no. What did you learn from doing the show? What did you get from it?

Well, I can put the days of the week in the correct order. I can do anagrams. I can slightly do the arithmetic. And I suppose I've learned how astonishingly clever people are and how much practice bears the success. Yes, and how well they do in the problems. And also how you've got a Cambridge first against somebody who's been on a production line since they were 15. And it's perfectly possible that the less educated will win. Your plans then, you said you're going to struggle particularly with the idea of retirement, but the garden, are you into that? Is that you? I'm going to try. I'm going to sack all the gardeners.

And do it yourself? Yeah. I can shop more for clothes, but I won't have anywhere to wear them it is you know there's a wonderful old Anthony Newley musical which was called The Roar of the Grease Paint The Smell of the Crowd and it is very alluring

I think if you all I ever wanted to do when I was growing up was not to be a scientist I just wanted to be famous and you always knew that? I mean if you came from a very do when I was growing up was not to be a scientist. I just wanted to be famous. And you always knew that? Yeah. I mean, if you came from a very suburban part of Lancashire, that wasn't a bad idea, really. I was looking back at some of your work, some of your journalism, and I wanted to ask you about something we were talking about yesterday. Of course, many people still talking about today

for good cause. There is the concern that the legal right to abortion in america could be about to be overturned there's been an unprecedented leak of a draft u.s supreme court document which shows that might be on the cards and you made a documentary i remember watching this in 2017 to mark 50 years since the abortion act in this country and you spoke about your own experience perhaps we'll come to that in just a moment but and you've got a place in america and you spoke about your own experience. Perhaps we'll come to that in just a moment. But you've got a place in America and you've worked there, of course. You'll be very familiar with the politics as well. What is your reaction to this?

I'm just horrified. You know, I was around before it was legal, backstreet abortions. The people who could get abortions, and it'll happen in America, of course, you can pay. You can always pay to have an abortion or find doctors who will sign a piece of paper. But for women, you know, this isn't what we march for. We march for absolute freedom and the idea that it's going backwards. Just as I think we're bringing Northern Ireland round. It's just so sad. And it's nobody else's business.

It's our bodies. I mean, I really can't believe it. Did you ever think you'd see this in your lifetime? No, of course. I mean, the amount of campaigning, I remember as a young reporter going and watching an abortion in the very, very early days because, you know, we didn't know what it, nobody really knew what was involved because before then

it had been illegal. And on my programme there was David Steele who, to his credit, got the legislation through. And you also spoke about your own experience. Yeah, and it was really frightening because there was nothing written about it. So, first of all, you really didn't know what you were going into. And secondly, when you'd had an abortion, you weren't ready for horrific depression

and beating yourself up because it wasn't until then perhaps you realised exactly what you'd done. And if I had my time again, would I have done it? No, I wouldn't actually. Really? No. Why not? I don't know.

I'd still want the right to do it. Yes. But I think that life is too precious. Not that, I mean, that's my opinion and that's what I would do. I certainly wouldn't deny anyone else the opportunity to make the choice. But you, because you were in your early 20s, it wasn't long after it had been legalised. And why did you feel at the time you should do it?

I think I was overwhelmed. I was very early into a marriage that I wasn't sure was going to really work and I was too frightened, I think. But my fear now would be the fear of sort of cutting off a life would be too much. Really? Yeah.

And did it change you afterwards for you to have that regret? Did it stay with you? I think that I didn't think about it for a long time. But I do remember when I did the programme in 2017, I really had to consider it all again. And, you know, I really felt quite surprised at my reaction of having to talk about it. Because you had those feelings of regret? Yes. I mean, it's a huge thing. And I don't think you, your body reacts in a certain way that you're not expecting, you know.

I think you really do go through a tremendous amount of grief. Yes, even though that was, as you say, your choice, your right at that point. Yeah. I think some of the messages we got yesterday were very along those lines in the sense of when this gets talked about, it's almost like when you're demanding the rights, the reality of it, the emotion of it can also be forgotten. And how hard it is for women who choose to do it and then go through it.

Yes, and choose to do it and then regret. I mean, some of the women we had on that documentary deeply, deeply regretted. But they weren't saying take away this opportunity from other women. Yes, and of course, as you say, at the moment it's a might in America, but I'm minded to mention this morning

Oklahoma's governor has just signed a bill banning abortion after about six weeks of pregnancy. It'll slightly differ state by state. But I think it's very important to hear how women feel about it afterwards as well. And the other thing I just wanted to ask you about was a message we came in yesterday said, regardless of your position, if you make something illegal,

there's shame attached to it. And there's already shame attached to it for a lot of people. Well, I was going to say that you don't need any more shame because once you've had an abortion, the shame is enormous. And it's crippling, absolutely crippling. Yeah, it makes me shiver now to think about it, actually. Anne Robinson talking to Emma there.

Now, for ITV Wales viewers, she is a sunny presence on the screen delivering the weather news, but her smile for many years was hiding deep pain and fear. Ruth Dodsworth was in a marriage with a man controlling, abusing and harassing her. Just over a year ago, her ex-husband and the father of her children was jailed for three years after being found guilty of coercive and controlling behaviour and stalking. Despite a lifetime restraining order, Ruth is now concerned about his release, which could be later this year. In a new programme controlled by my ex-partner, The Hidden Abuse, Ruth explores the crime of coercive control. She spoke to Emma about her own experiences.

I'd lived with this man for nearly 20 years. My children had grown up in an abusive relationship. They'd seen, they'd heard far more than any child should have to witness with their own parents. And for years and years and years, you kid yourself that they don't see things, they don't hear things, but actually they do. And I, over the years, remember locking us in the bathroom, myself and my two kids, and sort of promising them

that I would get us out of this. And for so many reasons, actually getting out of that situation is so much harder. But, you know, my children are and have been absolutely incredible. But I live, I suppose, as so many parents do in this situation with the guilt that, you know, I didn't get them out of that sooner. But I think, you know, to be told by your own children not to come home because their dad, your husband, is going to kill you is pretty much the point of no return. And I think that for me, that was the wake up call I needed. And, you know, there was no going back after that. And yet you do have this public role. And I know maybe it's a stereotype, but we do associate cheeriness and happiness with our weather presenters.

You bring us, you know, in the country, especially, you know, I say the United Kingdom. I'm only talking in Wales. You bring us some of the most important news. Let's be honest, how the weather will be. What was that like having to perform and um and and contend with what was going on because I also know you know from from the film from your journalism that he he would also accost you on the way to work on the way home from work would be checking phone calls there was there was a lot of noise around you yeah and you know that I think that's a brilliant way of putting it I mean as you say that there's this I suppose this expectation if you like that you know, I think that's a brilliant way of putting it. I mean, as you say, there's this, I suppose, this expectation, if you like, that, you know, as the sunny weather person on the telly, you know, life is butterflies and rainbows.

And, you know, I'm absolute living proof that never judge book by its cover. You know, you just do not know what is going on behind closed doors and in people's lives. I mean, to all intents, I had what I sort of jokingly call the sort of Instagram lifestyle in a sense. I had the lovely home. I had the car, the beautiful children. But it was all, I guess, for lack of a better word, it was all a complete and utter, it was a fabrication and it was a lie because I would leave home in the morning and drive to work in tears with my ex-husband constantly ringing me I mean from the minute I left the house in a sense I was out of his grip so the only way he could control

was to ring was to to effectively so I was under 24 hour surveillance in a sense I'd get to work like yourself you know this sort of persona then that you have to sort of well I suppose plaster on I'd sit in in this little dressing room for 20 minutes compose myself plaster on the makeup and then go and smile in front of the cameras and I think I just got so good at doing that I got so good at hiding the reality from well I you know I hid it I hid it from my family from my friends from my work colleagues and I suppose and to a certain extent I hid it from myself family, from my friends, from my work colleagues. And I suppose to a certain extent, I hid it from myself too, actually, you know, to pretend that it wasn't happening in a sense was easier.

And then I'd get in the car and cry all the way home. And, you know, the cycle would start again. So it was living a lie. But it was also incredibly important. I wanted to make this point that you worked and that you earned because you were earning the money for the house. Well, this this this is part of the problem and is one of the reasons that, you know, so many people do not get out of abusive relationships. Part of coercive controlling behaviour, which is a type of domestic abuse, but it's it's sort of a hidden, almost underground, insidious form of abuse.

So, you know, you, it might not be physical. In my case, it was physical. But, you know, not everyone will have bruises to show. But the isolation, the financial isolation. So, you know, for example, my salary would go in each month. And the first thing he would do is take it out. And then suddenly, you know, I didn't have my bank card. I didn't have access to sort of any money at all.

He would effectively give me money each day to go for lunch if I think the fear was that if I had access to money that gave me access to the outside world and access to other people so cutting that off in a sense made me almost wholly dependent on him and it sounds it sounds incredibly naive doesn't it to you know for goodness sakes you, you must have had money. You must have been able to go and access your own money. I didn't. And I got used to not having access to that money. I think what your film shows, having talked to other women, is what you get used to quite quickly, almost, as a new norm.

And then because you aren't talking to anyone, and a lot of people don't, you don't have that check that this isn't right and isn't good. I mean, I should say, and you do say this again in the film, that you're smiling for real a lot more nowadays. You're in a better place. And that will matter a lot to our listeners to hear that and for me to ask you how you are now. Each and every one of us has something going on in our lives, don't we? And again, what goes on behind closed doors? What happens to people that we don't necessarily realise? And it can be truly, truly horrendous. But I lived in an abusive relationship for nearly 20 years, but I am alive and I am well and I am

absolutely, well, first and foremost, so, so lucky to be here, to be alive, to be talking, to be using my voice as a voice for perhaps those who can't. But I think the message that I want to get out is that it doesn't matter how bad your situation is, how horrendous it is, there can be life beyond. And as you said, you know, I am now living a really, really lovely and happy life. And I get up every day and I smile and I go to work. And, you know, what you see now is what you get when I smile on the telly. I absolutely mean it. And I'm learning to relive what most people would call a normal life. I've got a new relationship, in fact, a new husband.

And my children are happy. I am happy. And, you know, life is good. Presenter Ruth Doddsworth and her documentary controlled by my ex-partner The Hidden Abuse is available to watch on ITV Hub now. Still to come on the programme we're stepping behind the velvet curtain

and exploring why there's been a rise in sex parties. Stay tuned for that and remember you can enjoy Woman's Hour any time of the day. If you can't join us live, just subscribe for free to the daily podcast on BBC Sounds. Now, do you grow flowers in your garden? Have you ever thought about specifically growing flowers like you'd grow vegetables in rows so you can pick them in order to have flowers for your own home?

Cut flower gardening, as it's known, is a trend which has grown amongst gardeners over the past 10 years. Growing your own flowers means you can enjoy seasonal bouquets at a fraction of the cost of shop-bought blooms. To find out more, Emma spoke to Millie Proust, a writer and floral designer in West Sussex, whose book Seed to Bloom is out later this year, and Georgie Newberry, a flower farmer and founder

of Common Farm Flowers in Somerset. First, here's Millie. Everyone can grow cut flowers. Even if you just have a window box and no access to a garden, you can grow cut flowers. But cut flower gardening is slightly different from gardening because you're going to take from the garden, which often we're discouraged when we're little not to take anything from the precious parent's garden. So it is some

getting your head around it but um you can grow a garden as you would and and take flowers from it um i really encourage people to mine from what they already have it be it shrubs or perennials lots of them make excellent cut flowers and and then and not feel guilty take them and not feel bad not feel guilty enjoy them in the house yes bad. And not feel guilty. Enjoy them in the house. Yes, my slight confession here, which I feel a bit nervous about admitting on the radio and to both of you, Georgie, I'll bring you in in just a moment,

is I absolutely can't bear it when people bring me flowers. I just see it as work in the house. Got to clean the vase after, got to maintain them. You've brought me something that's going to die. I'm going to kill it very quickly. Actually, leave it in the garden is kind of where I'm at, although I'm not very good at gardening yet. Is that awful to admit to you, Millie? I think so. I think flowers can really liven up a room. And for me, watching a flower fade is one of the most beautiful things to witness. And it

brings us closer to the cycle of nature, which I think we're often taken away from that we are just part of a large cycle of composting and I think watching flowers bloom peak and fade tulips are especially beautiful at this time of year and they die so gracefully I think it's a real pleasure and they make a bit of a mess Millie they start shedding the petals on there and you know someone told me to put a copper piece in there keep them. Now I've got to scrub the vase and I've got to do that with a certain way. I mean, yes. Okay. I'm really actually telling the truth. It's similar to cooking, I think, because we cook every day.

We have to clean pots and pans. We have to clean. For me, cleaning a vase is... But it's a death. A bouquet is a death. You've brought me something that you've killed to give to me. I would argue that that is a really beautiful thing to bring more into our lives. The cycle of life and death is one of the most beautiful things about being alive is that it all carries on past us being there.

So I really think it's a beautiful thing to watch. I bet you didn't think we were going to have a debate about this. I toyed with whether to share this or not, because my heart slightly sinks if someone arrives. And even if they're beautiful and my mother still brings me flowers, no matter what I've said to her about this. Georgie, good morning. Welcome to the programme. Good morning. Thanks for having me. I feel awful to be faced with a flower farmer after what I've just said. But we're talking about cut flower farming and gardening, excuse me.

And I have to say, I love them in other people's homes because they're looking after them and they know what to do. It's more about me. And I wonder about this particular, this trend. You weren't always doing this. This has been a second career for you. Is that right? Yes, I'm definitely a serial career person. So I've been a journalist. I've worked for American Vogue in Paris. I've written novels. I've anyway, I ended up living in Somerset and needed to find a way to make a living. And a neighbor sent me a bouquet of flowers. And I will admit, I have in my time grown a lot of vegetables. But my family didn't eat them. And I didn't enjoy the beauty of the cabbage in the garden. I mean, a cabbage takes about 10 months to mature and the space it takes. And it's covered in things eating it. And no, no, no.

On the other hand, I found I was very good at growing sweet peas. So I was already selling sweet peas in bunches outside my front gate to the passersby. Because, you know, if you don't cut your sweet peas, they don't keep flowering. And then a neighbor sent me a bunch of flowers in the post. And I had a complete light bulb moment because I was know if you don't cut your sweet peas they don't keep flowering and then a neighbor sent me a bunch of flowers in the post and I had a complete light bulb moment because I was like well I can do this and so I the next day started a business growing bouquets and I think the whole thing about whether you grow for cutting or grow what it does is think, as a mental health thing, if you can run a business which is this good for your mental health, then why wouldn't you do it? Anybody can farm their garden, even on a really quite a modest space.

You could be a specialist dahlia grower or a specialist sweet pea grower. You don't have to be like me. I grow stupid amounts of flowers and do a stupid amount with them but what I often say to people is people don't have always a very intense relationship with their garden whereas and people often will stand on the back doorstep with a cup of tea and just sort of see a general view they don't get up close and personal with their garden so what I challenge people to do is to take a pair of scissors walk around their garden with a bucket or a vase or a jug or something and cut 30 stems into that jug out of their garden and the garden

will not you will not know you've been there you will not break the garden up those 30 stems and put them together on your kitchen table and a i'm afraid it becomes a mildly addictive activity uh but b through the year you can do this in january with twigs with lichen on and a tiny little bit of pulmonary area and oh i could just listen to you say these words all morning i don't know anything i mean you don't see them if you just stand on your back doorstep. But if you go out there with a pair of scissors looking for them, then you've got to create something amazing. I've got a vision of me with sniffing some dandelions

and just whacking them in a mug. Dandelions stand very nicely in water. Take your coffee cup. I challenge you, Emma. A challenge for you, Emma, and also you listening at home. Get out there and start snipping dandelions or roses. That was gardeners Millie Proust and Georgie Newberry. Now we're stepping behind the velvet curtain.

Did you know that sex parties have expanded from fringe underground raves to large, well-established sell-out club nights in the past few years. Why is this? To discuss it, I spoke to Dr Kate Lister, sex historian and author of A Curious History of Sex, and Miss Gold, who runs One Night Parties, a sex party in London. First, Miss Gold.

A sex party is a space that you can go to socialise, you can go to meet like-minded people. I think the perception that you're just going for sex is perhaps outdated or just not correct. You can go there to make friends, forge friendships, like-minded people. But yeah, I'll pass it over to Kate. No, all right.

No, I don't think I could do much better than that. So what happens at them and who goes? Sex does happen. Of course sex happens. I'm not going to lie. Sex isn't just penetrative. It's spanking. It's kissing.

There's often rope at parties. It's so diverse. Where do you start? Where did you, well, why did you set up, tell me why you set up one night parties. So one night parties is a space that's just for women and non-binary people to explore their femininity so it's completely void of men um I started it initially well I started doing parties years and years ago um about kind of six seven years ago um at a friend's house um and um I just wanted to create a space that was purely for females um it was unticketed um

and then fast forward a few years uh when I was pregnant I was at um an event and I was very heavily pregnant a man came up to me and touched my stomach without my permission and looked at my partner and was like can I touch your woman and I just thought this is just so uncomfortable and I just was looking around the spaces and it was just such a male-dominated space I felt there should be a space where women can go non-men can go and they can explore themselves and their sexuality and their friendships without the male gaze there. Let's bring Kate in to get some historical context in all of this, because they're not a new phenomenon, are they, Kate? Oh, God, no, no, no, no, no, no. As long as people have been having sex, there's been people that thought we should do this in a room together.

It has a really, really long history. It's just like what's changed in recent years is the rise of social media and the use of apps, because the problem that faced everyone throughout history who thought I'd like to go to a sex party, is where do you find it? I suppose you're risking your anonymity as well in order to try and find it. But now with the rise of apps and websites and things like that, is that you don't need to do that. There's a level of anonymity. So that's what's changed. It's been a huge seismic change. But no, people have always wanted to go to parties and always have gone to parties. And why are we seeing, and are we seeing a resurgence now? And is it something about the time we're living in that this is happening?

I would say yes, because whenever you've got global catastrophes, and we have just lived through one and we're still living through it, you tend to get this kind of, like everyone's just off the chain at the end of it. At the end of the bubonic plague there was italian priests and historians panicking because everyone was rushing headlong into lust and there was a papal edict it issued because to try and stop people having sex in graveyards with each other and after the first world war and the spanish flu the roaring 20s happened and i think that with covid and what we're coming through and the Spanish flu, the roaring 20s happened. And I think that with COVID and what we're coming

through and the fact that it's so seismically shifted anything, I mean, nothing will change your attitudes to casual sex, like the threat of impending death. That will do it every single time. So it doesn't surprise me in the least that after this, everybody's kind of going, actually, you know what, life's short. Maybe we we should i'd like to do exciting things so yeah that doesn't surprise me so we're living through fun times right now then uh are we are you seeing a resurgence are you seeing a rise what kind of crowd come to one night parties miss gold yeah i totally think there's been a rise and i think um going back to what kate said about social media i think that we spent the last two years kind of sat at home um maybe masturbating a bit more um thinking about our fantasies I know there's been a huge rise in

the cell of sex toys like self-pleasure toys and I think um where we're at home and we've been allowed to allow our imaginations have gone wild um we're looking for a space to explore those things um I'm seeing such a vast array of women and non-binary people come to one night uh from all walks of life it there's not one size fits all when when you think about who who goes to a sex party there's people that in their day-to-day life are a nurse or a teacher or they're an only fans content content creator. It's not anyone. Hikers, everyone. Even hikers.

How do you ensure the sex is consensual and that people feel safe at the party? Well, I think that all good parties have a list of rules that people should adhere to. When tickets go out, the rules are sent out as well. We do kind of, it's a very small party, so it's 45 people, and with that amount of people in the space I can kind of keep going around and looking at everyone. Each spaces tend to have dungeon monitors as well. We do kind of a group talk at the start to go through rules um people that want

to be photographed can be photographed if they don't want to be photographed they wear a wristband um and the whole process of joining the party is via verification as well um so that that helps as well and it being a space where unfortunately a lot of problems are centered around men um and kind of taking them out the scenario means that we all feel a lot safer yeah what have women said to you about coming to your parties and what does it give provide women it's changed people's lives honestly i really think it has i know that might sound like a crazy thing to say, but they've felt a liberation and an exploration of self that it just stretches like sexuality is the thing. I think it stretches you more than anything can. The amount of pain or pleasure you can feel, the endorphins, all of those things. And they've been able to make friendships that I've seen friendships last a lifetime from the original parties that I hosted six, seven years.

Some of those women are still my best friends. You put a lot of women in a room wearing very little, you're at your most vulnerable and you allow other people to see you like that and you experience those things together. You create bonds that are incomparable to any other space, think. There you go something for the weekend that was Miss Gold and Dr Kate Lister speaking to me on Friday that's it from me do join Emma from Monday at 10 have a good one. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a, I've been working on one of the most complex

stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.