Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Pensions scandal, Isabel Allende, Anti-Obesity Drugs

Episode Date: March 6, 2021

Pensions expert, Baroness Ros Altman talks about the state pension scandal which only affects women. Around 200,000 of them could be due pay-outs averaging £13,500 to top-up the underpayment of their state pension. We hear from the critically acclaimed and award-winning author, Isabel Allende. She tells us about her latest book 'The ‘Soul of a Woman’ - her memoir on feminism and what it means to be a woman. What can Greek goddesses teach us about ourselves today? Classicist, Natalie Haynes and Historian, Bettany Hughes discuss goddesses and what we can learn from them.35 million adults and a third of eleven year olds are overweight or obese in this country. Rachel Batterham is Professor of Obesity, Diabetes and Endocrinology at UCL and one of the authors of a recent study into a drug, semaglutide, that can help some people lose 20% of their body weight. Jan, who took part in Rachel's trial and has struggled with weight since she was a child, talks about how taking part changed her life.When is maximialism too much? Interior designer, Abigail Ahern and head judge on BBC2’s Interior Design Masters, Michelle Ogundehin explain the the trend for patterns and bold, clashing colours.Classical violinist, Madeleine Mitchell talks about the concert at St John’s Smith Square celebrating A Century of Music by British Women (1921-2021) with her London Chamber Ensemble. Errollyn Wallen CBE joins Madeleine and explains what it feels like to be included in the celebration of the finest British female composers.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Paula McFarlane Editor: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello and welcome to the weekend edition of Woman's Hour. What a line-up of names in today's show. You are in for a good time. Would you want to be a Greek goddess? Well, writer and classicist Natalie Haynes, along with historian Bettany Hughes, tell us what we can learn from them. Acclaimed Chilean writer Isabel Allende talks about feminism,

what it means to be a woman, to have a new fella in her 70s, and shares her thoughts about how the younger generation view gender. Leande talks about feminism, what it means to be a woman, to have a new fella in her 70s, and shares her thoughts about how the younger generation view gender. Many, many young people define themselves as non-binary. So it's not about being male or female, it's about who you are. And that is a huge change that will accelerate whatever we have to do to replace the patriarchy. And more is more is more. Good news for those of us who love stuff. We hear about the growing trend for maximalism and obesity. Why are 35 million of us overweight?

Jan from Kent talks about her own problems with weight and how being part of a trial for an anti-obesity drug affected her. It was just completely life-changing because for the first time in my life I could actually get signals from my body that I was full, that I didn't need to eat. But first an astonishing story which is being described as a state pension scandal which only affects women. Around 200,000 of them could be due payouts averaging £13,500 to top up the underpayment of their state pension for up to two decades. The Office for Budget Responsibility estimates that the full cost of this could be £3 billion. These underpayments are due to married women born before the 6th of April 1953.

The government is in the process of identifying and contacting these married women, as well as those who've been widowed and divorced. Baroness Ross Altman is a pensions expert who served as pensions minister from 2015 to 2016. She told Emma why this issue is just being addressed now. It looks as if there has been a systemic failure within the DWP. That's the Department for Work and Pensions. The Department for Work and Pensions, which is responsible for the state pension. And instead of updating its computers in 2008 to automatically pay women up to 60% of their husband's pension when he reached pension age,

age 65 at the time, this didn't seem to have happened. In addition to that, there are lots of women from before 2008 who should have been living on far more because they should have received up to 60% of their husband or late husband's pension, even, or divorced husband's pension in some cases. But they didn't know they had to claim it, and they didn't claim it, and they've missed out. And then there are women who are over 80, who also should be getting at least £80.45 a week, but are living on less, and have not been automatically given that money. So there's a lot of ways in which women, and it is unfortunately so often women, have lost out in the state pension

and for years been living on less. You were pensions minister for a year, admittedly not that long in the role. Why didn't you sort it out? Nobody knew about it. This came to light last year, it seems. It was highlighted when a few cases were discovered of women who were living on less than they should have done. And some of those were from the period when automatically they should have got the up rating. So clearly something went have got the up rating. So clearly something went wrong with the computer system. So you're saying you didn't know at all about this? No, nobody knew. You know, it was the media that exposed some of these cases.

And indeed, when some of the women phoned the Department for Work and Pensions and said, look, I think I'm living on less than I should. I should be entitled to more. Initially, they were told, no, no, no, you're getting the right amount. It was only on the second, third or fourth phone call that the people at the department realised, yes, there was a problem. And it's taken months and months for them to recognise the scale of the issue. If I may, it wasn't just the media, though, was it? It was someone who also held that post, Steve Webb,

a former Liberal Democrat. Yes, but he's a former Liberal Democrat MP. He held that post. And if he was able to harness this and find out about it and put a freedom of information request in, why on earth couldn't people who are in the government now, never mind people like yourself who've held that post before, how could you not find out about this? I've been asking questions about it. I've raised it in Parliament. Initially, unfortunately, the department basically said it

was only a few women, it was a few exceptional cases. And it was only when we continued pressing on this, that the officials seem to have looked into it properly. To be fair, you know, the department had an awful lot going on last year during the pandemic. But you know, that's no excuse. And I think that the women who are entitled to more than they should have been living on far too little. And they're entitled to compensation back to 2008, definitely, plus interest, and there may be consolatory payments, you know, the government has set aside now 3 billion pounds to try and sort this out. And not a small amount, although we're getting used to hearing large amounts in these strange times we're living in, especially in light of the budget, which we'll come to in a minute.

But it's a double scandal. The government didn't even know it was doing wrong by women, successive governments. And on top of that, this has happened to the women. And when you look back over the years, unfortunately, it seems to be time after time when there are problems with the state pension system, it tends to impact women. Women are the poor relations in the state pension system and certainly in the private pension system. And part of it is the ludicrous complexity of the old state pension system. Even the new state pension system is, in my view, very, very complicated.

But why on earth should any woman listening to this, now they've been told the Department for Work and Pensions say that they will contact anyone impacted, why on earth should they trust a department who didn't even know that they were doing wrong by women to actually be able to contact them when it can't even update its own computer systems in 2008 to adequately look after women it was meant to be looking after? It's a good question. And the department is now saying that it will take a number of years to uncover all the people who should have had the money and hadn't. And it's worse than that too, because before 2008, you could claim the money from your husband's pension rights. And yet the women weren't adequately, in my view, told about it.

And if they discover it now, they can only get 12 months back dating of the missing money. There's an appeal to the parliamentary ombudsman that, you know, this wasn't adequately administered by the Department for Work and Pensions. It's not excusable. I'm not sitting here saying this is okay. It is not okay. And the initial denial, I kind of understand it because it is such a big mistake. You think, well, how on earth could it have happened? It has happened. It's taken too long to look at it. But now the government is doing so and it's put aside the money necessary. And I want them to get on with it as quickly as possible.

Yes. I mean, some saying it might take six years as a dedicated team of 155 civil servants has been reported looking at this. Should somebody say sorry to these women? And if so, who should it be? Well, I would hope that, you know, anyone involved, including myself, I am mortified that this has happened. I wish I had known. I would have moved on it very, very quickly. You know, I think it has taken rather a long time to take it seriously. But I do know that, you know, there have been a lot of pressures going on. I think there is a proper apology needed to women about the problems of their pensions generally. But to the women here who, you know, it shouldn't have been rocket science to realise that if women are living on less than the minimum £80.45 a week that would have been due if they had been previously married or if they were over 80, that somebody should perhaps investigate why that is.

Just practical side of this, Ros, you've helped a lot of people as well in your time and you want to see them be done right by now. It doesn't sound like you would necessarily wait for the Department for Work and Pensions to get in touch with you considering what has gone on already with this if you do think you are affected should you give them a call definitely and you've also been getting in touch with us with your emails Jane says as this huge mistake has been made by the DWP now is the time to acknowledge that we did not receive our letters of notification about the changes in pension age. We've been swindled out of our pensions and forced to work beyond our time. We want what is owed to us. Joanna says, I missed out on my first husband's

work pension entitlement as it was just before the law was changed. How can this be right? We were married from 1976 to 1998. I'm 64 and I'm still working as the pension age for me was raised And if you'd like to get in touch about anything you hear on the programme, please email us via the website or you can contact us by texting 84844 or you can contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, the critically acclaimed and award-winning author Isabel Allende has written 24 books and sold 75 million copies worldwide. They include The House of the Spirits,

based on her childhood in Chile, to Paula, written at the bedside of her daughter as she lay in a coma, a coma that she never recovered from. She was only 29. And her latest book, The Soul of a Woman, is her memoir on feminism, power, and what it means to be a woman. I asked, when did she first realise the fight for women's rights was so important to

her? I started with the idea of how unfair the world was for women. When I was five or six years old, I was really, really young. And it has been something that I have carried with me all my life. So what did you see around you when you were five or six years old that made you become a feminist? My father abandoned the family when I wasn't even three years old. My mother was pregnant of my little brother. And my mother was a señorita in a South American society, Catholic, conservative, raised to be a mother and somebody's wife. And she found herself abandoned, alone, with no skills to

work, and three babies. So she went back to live in her father's house. My grandmother died. And so it was the house of a widower. And my bachelor uncles lived in the house as well. My mother was in a very vulnerable position. She had no money. She was a charity case, really. So my grandfather paid for our schooling and all that. But my mother had no pocket money, no freedom. She had to take care of her reputation. And I could see very young, I could see how unfair the situation of

my mother was compared to my uncles and my grandfather. So I think that it started then. And the difference between what was happening with the men and the women around you really angered you, didn't it? Particularly the machismo you saw around you. Yes. As you call it. I was a rebellious child, I suppose, anyhow. But it was sort of targeted against male authority. And that became so prevalent in my life that I even left the church when I was 15 and I never went back because the idea that some guys with robes would be telling

me what to do was just unconceivable. In the 60s, you started writing for a feminist magazine called Paula and you poked fun at Machismo in that and you started a column called Civilize Your Troglodyte. Good title. How did that go down? Very well, actually, because, you know, feminism, we got a lot of aggression because feminism was so new. And it was presented as a war against men, against the church, against establishment, against everything. And the fact that I could do it with humour made it more tolerable. Sometimes I would get letters or men would tell me, I have a friend who is just like your troglodyte. It was always a friend. It was never them. In honour of your daughter, Paula, who died at the age of 29,

you set up a foundation. And it was your trip to India that inspired that. I'd love to hear more about that. This was in 1993 or 94, I think. After my daughter died, I wrote a book called Paula. And when the book was out of my hands, I just felt this horrible void. I didn't know what to do with my life. And so my husband and a friend took me to India with the idea of getting me out of my comfort zone.

And maybe that would sort of shake me up. And we ended up renting a car with a driver. And we were in Rajasthan in some very rural area. And we stopped. And there was a group of, let's say, six women, very poor, around a tree. So my friend and I walked to them. We didn't share a language, but we gave them some bracelets that we had bought in the market. And there was that exchange that women sometimes have just by touching, you know, touching each other's hair and smiling. And then when we were going back to the car because the driver was honking, one of the women gave me this little pack of rags, really. And I thought she was trying to give me something back because of

the bracelets. And I said, no, no, no, it's not necessary. I tried to give it back and she wouldn't take it. So I opened it and to my horror, I saw that it was a newborn baby. I don't think the baby was more than a day old. The umbilical cord was still there and the baby was naked and it smelled of, I don't know, of ashes. It was just such an incredible thing. So I kissed the baby, blessed the baby and tried to give it back again. And then she backed off. She didn't want the baby. And the driver came, took the baby from my hands, gave it to the first woman that was standing there and pushed me into the car. And in the car, like a minute later, I reacted and I said, what happened? Why that woman tried to give me a baby? And the driver said, was a girl. Who wants a girl? And you know,

that was the moment when I realized what I was going to do with the income that came from the book I had written about my daughter. And I decided to create a foundation to help women like that woman who was so desperate and poor that she was willing to give away her child. And that little girl whose destiny must have been pretty bad. What a wonderful thing to do with the profits from that book. Well, since then, the foundation has grown and a lot of my income goes directly to the foundation. You now live in California, but during the pandemic, cases of domestic violence have increased all over the world. But in Chile, they're some of the highest rates in the world. How concerned are you about this?

It is true that the numbers are appalling and domestic violence has been a problem in Chile always, as it has been in Mexico and in many other countries, not only Chile. But in Chile, because we keep records, they look terrible, more terrible than in other places where no records are kept. The women's movements, and there are several in Chile, the women's groups, have been creating awareness of this and trying to change the laws. And a lot has been done. When Michelle Bachelet was elected the first woman president in our country, her first mission was to confront domestic violence. And so there were new laws and shelters and information, education,

and also punishment for the aggressors. So that changed a little. The pandemic has exacerbated all the problems that women have. Women were the first to lose their jobs. They will be the last to get them back. They have been victims of the virus massively because they take care of people. They take care of people in nursing homes, in schools, with children, everywhere, in hospitals.

And they are the least protected. In the United States, many of them are undocumented. If they get sick, they don't even have treatment. So I think that the pandemic has made us very aware of how much more we have to do as women. You know, I always say one woman alone is just very vulnerable. We have no power. But when we get together, we are invincible. So let's get together. I completely agree with you. When we get together, we're invincible. There's so much strength in the sisterhood. Where do men fit into it? I think that young men fit into this. I'm not talking about older men without education who, I mean, you have to wait until they die off.

It has nothing to do with it. But younger generations that have been brought up by mothers like me and who have girlfriends who have been brought by mothers like me, who will not put up with this. So they are either aware and understanding, or sometimes they are part of the movement, which is great. Also, I see that my grandchildren, in my grandchildren's generation, the gender gap is not that important. Many, many young people define themselves as non-binary. So it's not about being male or female, it's about who you are. And that is a huge change that will accelerate whatever we have to do to replace the patriarchy. I want to talk about romance because you say you're a romantic,

but you find it very difficult to write about. You know, I love the idea of romance, of the couple that falls in love and they're happy ever after. It never happens in real life, though. And I write very realistic novels. So I find myself around half of the work and I don't like the guy. I don't like my hero. And I think, if I don't like him, why would my female protagonist like him?

And I have to kill him. But then I bring someone else in because it's always about love. For me, love is really important. It doesn't have to be the romantic love of romance novels. But relationships are essential to me. And your passion is just as intense now as it always has been. You've been married three times and you've just remarried again in your 70s.

It may be. It's not my last marriage. Who knows? Maybe. Who knows? Tell us how you met Roger. Roger is adorable and I shouldn't be saying this. I know. Is Roger listening? No, he's not. He's not. But I keep telling him, you don't take me for granted because, you know what, I can still marry one more time or two. Absolutely. Well, Roger heard me on the radio, actually.

He was a lawyer in New York with a very formal, stable, I would say even conservative life. And he was a widower. And I don't know what I said on the radio, but he decided to write to me. And he started writing every day, morning and evening, for five months. We never talked on the phone and we never met. And then I went to New York for a conference and I thought, well, I should meet this guy. And so we went out for lunch and I liked him. He seemed exactly as what I had thought he was by reading his emails.

So after the first course, I asked him, what are your intentions? Because I am 74 years old, I have no time to waste. The poor guy choked on the ravioli, but he didn't escape. And three days later, he asked me to marry him. And I said, look, marriage is out of the question, but we can be lovers. The problem is that I live in California and you live in New York. So eventually he decided to sell his house, give away everything and move with me to California. He knew he was onto a good thing, Isabel. It's funny because when he arrived, he brought only with him two bikes, his clothes and for some reason, some crystal glasses.

Who knows why? But it's working really beautifully. She is quite something. What an inspiration. The soul of a woman is out now. Now, what can Greek goddesses teach us about ourselves? These goddesses tend to have exaggerated personalities and are often plagued with personal flaws and negative emotions.

But what are the lessons? Well, Natalie Haynes is a classicist and author of Pandora's Jar, Women in the Greek Myths. Bethany Hughes is a classicist and author of Pandora's Jar, Women in the Greek Myths. Bettany Hughes is a historian and author of Venus and Aphrodite, A History of the Goddess. Together, they are talking about Greek goddesses as part of this year's WOW Women of the World Festival running online until the 21st of March. Bettany started by explaining how many Greek goddesses there are. The short answer is there are tons.

So there are at least 70 or so Greek goddesses that we know about. But the thing is, what you have to remember is in the ancient Greek world, there was no separate word for religion. So gods and goddesses and demigods and spirits were everywhere and in everything. And the reason for that is basically these weren't just things that you worshipped. What the ancients did is they thought, what really matters in our world? What do we really care about? What are our hopes and fears and ideas? And then they gave those notions a name and a face and they called them a goddess. So Venus, for instance, is basically the incarnation of desire of all kinds.

So political, social, personal, polemical. So they are everywhere in the ancient world. And your book focuses on Venus and Aphrodite. Do you think we've romanticised them or what could we learn from them? Oh, totally. I mean, I always think it's hilarious with Valentine's Day just gone. If Venus could see that sort of pathetic blonde creature waffling around on Valentine's card, everybody would say, that's you.

She'd go, no, what? Because she was the goddess of sexual love and of war as well. So she was incredibly feisty and ferocious. And I think we can learn from them. I mean, they're around us every day anyway. If you think about it, the red roses that I'm sure you were flooded with, Emma,

are Venus's flower. You know, the symbol, the female symbol that appears on sunlots, that's Venus's astrological sign. You know, venereal disease is Venus's disease, aphrodisiacs. So she's kind of with us in our lives. But more importantly, I think, and the ancients thought this too, they help us work out how to live. And basically Venus is the goddess of mixing things up. So she teaches us what we do with desire, how we can make desire not our enemy, but our ally and fundamentally how we can live together and use love, not just for gratification, but for symbiosis.

Let's talk about Pandora, Natalie. Pandora doesn't have a box until Hesiod, who is one of our earliest Greek writers, is translated by the Dutch polymath and scholar Erasmus roughly 2,000 years later. And Erasmus makes a mistake. He takes the word pithos in Greek, which means jar, and he translates it into Latin, pyxis, which means box. And within an incredibly short time, you start seeing paintings change to reflect that mistranslation. So before that point, Pandora is shown either with no receptacle at all, which is the case in every ancient world depiction of her, visual depiction of her, that we have. She is never shown with any kind of container. She is always shown in the act

of being created. She's sculpted from the clay of the ground by Hephaestus, the blacksmith god. So fake news went viral quite quickly. It absolutely did. Erasmus has form for this, I should tell you. He mistranslates the word spade in the phrase he likes to call a spade a spade. But in Greek, the word is scafe, and he should have said he likes to call a canoe a a spade. But in Greek, the word is scafe. And he should have said he likes to call a canoe a canoe. He just makes a mistake. This is just extraordinarily useful knowledge. I have blown your mind.

So if you want to describe somebody being very blunt, you have to say, oh, they like to call a canoe a canoe. And then just front it out with a really solid blank expression. I talk for a living and this is going into a script as soon as possible. Game on. Thank you. Away from the jar or the box, but we now know it's a jar, what should we know about Pandora?

And should we learn anything from her? Yes, you should. Here's the thing. Pandora is often described, even in, for example, Hesiod, one of our earlier sources. I'm so much enjoying your, I can't believe this has just come into my life face. I can't tell you.

Even Hesiod says she's gifted by all the gods. All the gods contribute to Pandora. She's created to be given to mankind as a kalon kakon, a good-bad thing. And so all these gods and goddesses contribute to her appearance. And Hesiod said that's why she's called Pandora, to whom everything is given. Pan meaning all the things. Andorra, things are given to her. But here's the thing.

It's an active version of the verb in Greek, not a passive. If it meant all given, the girl with all the gifts, her name would be pandosa. What it actually means is Pandora is all giving. It's usually an adjective before the character of Pandora, which is applied to Mother Earth, who is all giving to us. So even when we think of Pandora as just being gifted, we're robbing her of the agency that she has to make our lives better. So if ever you were looking for an instance of saying this is how we reduce women's agency, just with a linguistic flicker, that's only one letter, a r for a sigma.

That's all it took. Oh, interesting. Bethany, do you think then, just building on that theme, that there is a kind of injustice in how these Greek goddesses' stories have been passed on? I mean, no doubt. So I think it's brilliant you described history as fake news, kind of history as generally fake news because women and goddesses, they've been suppressed and neglected and rewritten through the story of

mankind. I mean, you know, like it or not, women have always been 50% of the population, and we occupy about 0.5% of recorded history. And exactly as Natalie is saying, you know, this thing of Pandora, the first created woman being the Kalon Kakon, the beautiful evil thing, for centuries, people have said, aha, well, that's obviously right, because women just simply are beautiful and evil. They're evil because they're beautiful. They're beautiful because they're evil. So you have to really dig deep into the archaeology and into the archives to find a much richer, more exciting, frankly, more hopeful story. I was thinking about you asking about Venus and what she's given to us.

So Venus is often shown in the ancient world bearded. So she's a woman with a beard and her kind of many times great grandmother was this incredible potent goddess called Inanna. And Inanna was thought to prove that every person had both male and female within them. So they were both woman and man, which is why Aphrodite sometimes has a beard. We're talking 4,000 years ago, but there was that notion in society that we could be both male and female at the same time.

And then we lost that notion for centuries. So it's very worth digging back. If a beard is good enough for Aphrodite, it's good enough for me. We need those beauty salons to open up soon. That was Bettany Hughes and Natalie Haynes. And if you'd like to hear more, they'll be in conversation at this year's Wow Women of the World Festival, revealing the real stories of women from Greek myths on the 10th of March at eight o'clock. Thursday was World

Obesity Day. It's a condition that affects one in three people in the UK. But if you include those classed as overweight as well, with a BMI of over 25, then you're talking a massive 63% of the adult population carrying extra weight and at risk of all the health problems that go with it. The underlying message has always been that being fat is some kind of moral failing.

But is lack of willpower to eat less and move more actually the cause? Are there really 35 million adults in this country who just aren't trying hard enough? Or is there something else going on? On what role might the anti-obesity drug semaglutide, that you may have heard about recently, play in helping people achieve and maintain a normal BMI? Rachel Batterham is a professor of obesity, diabetes and endocrinology at UCL

and is one of the authors of the recent study into a drug that can help some people lose 20% of their body weight. Emma was also joined by Jan, who lives in Kent. She took part in Rachel's study after being on and off diets since she was a child. Rachel explained what the anti-obesity drug is. This drug is based on a naturally occurring hormone that comes from the gut, which in thin people acts on the brain and decreases appetite and helps regulate food intake. When a person develops obesity, they have low levels of this hormone. So this is a natural hormone that's then being topped up and it really helps to reduce appetite and cause a reduction in body weight.

And what's the new one called? So the hormone is called GLP-1 and the drug is called semaglutide. And in terms of how you see this being perhaps prescribed or given to people, what would you say is the best way to do this? Would you agree with it going on the NHS? So obesity increases the risk of type 2 diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and a myriad of other diseases. And we need to improve people's health. So for people who have obesity, the disease which is affecting their health, then we should be offering them treatments that we know will improve their health and allow them to live longer. And actually this will save the NHS money going forward because we will be decreasing these other diseases that people with obesity are likely

to develop. Obesity is incredibly complicated. There are genetic causes, biological and social. Health inequalities really play into this. 20% of UK families are living in poverty and their choice is either they eat something unhealthy or they don't eat anything at all. Healthy calories are three times more expensive than unhealthy calories. We need both. We need shared responsibility between individuals and we need policies and we need to shape our environment so that actually it's easier for people to eat healthily. Jan, you did take part in this trial and I know that you you struggled yourself just until a couple of years ago you were over 20 stone but you eat healthily you exercise daily walking your dog tell us a bit about how you got to that weight and what's happened since taking the drug a problem I've

had all my life um being very young and um I went on this trial and it was just completely life changing because for the first time in my life, I could actually get signals from my body that I was full, that I didn't need to eat. And it's something that I've never had in 61 years of my life. I've never had that, which a lot of people have naturally. And it's because of my body makeup. And basically, this substitute gut hormone did the job. So once I'd eaten, it told my brain, you've eaten, you're full. And then I wouldn't want to eat again. And I could look at food and just look at it as that looks nice. But I wasn't driven to think, oh, I must eat it. And so my whole day wasn't sort of fighting this sort of urge that my body has to constantly graze and eat.

So I've never actually been someone who sat down and eaten huge portions or, you know, I've never in my life eaten a whole packet of biscuits. Some people say, oh, I sit on the sofa. I eat the biscuits, the whole pack. I haven know, I've never in my life eaten a whole packet of biscuits. Some people say, oh, I sit on the sofa, I eat the biscuits, the whole pack. I haven't, I've had one or two. But then I'll go back an hour or so later, maybe have another one or whatever. And I know from things I found out that I do have a genetic makeup, which makes me eat and want to eat. And I naturally don't have a lot of GLP-1, which is what this gave me. And it completely changed my way around food

and completely changed my life for a year that I was on the trial. You lost just over five stone while on that trial. In terms of this blame game that can go on, where people say, just eat less, less just manage it yourself it shouldn't be on the nhs this kind of drug you know who perhaps don't have this understanding of what you're talking about with regards to this hormone and and other you know factors that that are at play that rachel has been talking towards what would you say to them it's very difficult a lot of people just don't know it's such a complex subject as well.

And people, you know, the scientists, the experts are finding out more and more about it. And I actually went through a program about five years ago when my genetic makeup was screened by Giles Yeo, who's an expert at Cambridge University. And it was found that I have every gene that has been identified to date, which makes you eat, which makes you constantly hungry. So that was, it was really good to me because people just turn around and say, use willpower. You just eat healthy, exercise, you'll lose weight. That's's not the case it's not that easy and a lot of people who say that have the right body makeup so that they can do that there is a message here asking around our lifestyle this is from deborah who says it's not about blaming

people but looking at modern lifestyles it's too easy to be sedentary. Turning to pills isn't a good solution. What do you say to that, Rachel? So treatments have to depend on where somebody is in their weight sort of cycle. So if somebody weighs 120 kilograms, then lifestyle is not going to actually help. Lifestyle can help people who are at the lower end and to prevent obesity. But for the people already with severe obesity, with type 2 diabetes, heart problems, this is where this drug will come in and actually help them to lose weight because the only other option is bariatric surgery. So this will help reduce the number of people who would potentially need to have bariatric surgery. This study was funded by

the Dutch pharmaceutical company Nova Nordisk, which holds an estimated 80% share in the obesity drug market. Cynics may say a lot of money to be made by discrediting perhaps the eat less, move more advice and promoting drugs instead. What would you say to that? So there are many drugs like this drug based on gut hormones that are going to come to market in the next two to three, four years. And as a physician, my main aim is to improve health. And I prescribe drugs for other conditions. And I don't really think about the pharmaceutical company. The aim is health here. Would you have to be on it for the rest of your life? Or how long would you have to be on it? That's one of the biggest questions is how we can get people to reduce

weight but then keep it off because the drivers that cause the weight gain need to be addressed to try and actually help people keep the weight off. So is that any other disease like high blood pressure it's a tablet for life but I'm hopeful that we'll be able to move forward and sort of cause the natural levels of the hormone to increase with weight loss. And your emails came in. Linda says, as soon as I heard this topic was coming up, I knew it would spark the judgmental comments about obesity being the responsibility of individuals. Until we can walk in other people's shoes, it's so harsh and unfair to make these judgments i am overweight and i know that it's not that simple and a raft of psychological and physiological factors come into play not to mention the social and educational factors complex carbs are cheap and foods of poor

nutritional value are well promoted and the food industry plays a massive role in this i just wish people could learn a bit of understanding and empathy instead of putting down those who are already probably too harsh on themselves. And C emailed to say, please can we stop treating obesity as a physical thing rather than a mental issue? Having been at both ends of the spectrum, when I was underweight, I had a lot of counselling to help with my recovery. However, later in life, I'm now heading the other way due to several health issues, thyroid and steroid treatments. However, I'm just told to lose weight with absolutely no counselling help offered at all. Obesity is often still an eating disorder and needs to be seen as such. The cause for obesity needs to be investigated rather than just instantly branding people as lazy.

And if you'd like to drop us an email, please go to our website. Now, the Royal Family star Sue Johnston, who is 77, has spoken out about how older women are treated in the TV and film industry. After being cast in a new drama as Sean Bean's mum, having played his wife 30 years ago, would he ever be cast as her father?

Actor Dame Harriet Walter and film producer and broadcaster Karen Krasanovich discussed why female actors go straight from lover to mother, while male actors remain in similar roles throughout their careers. Harriet Walter started by talking about the way that women are valued and perceived on screen. The way we value people is how we present them on screens and it's very influential on the way we're perceived and so the stories we tell do have ripples outward. I hope that connection is there. My experience is that one is usually cast in relation to a man. So you're either the daughter, the wife, the mother the mother the sister the grandmother and so when you're

being cast it's not just as a woman and you're being cast it's not just are you capable of playing this part but could you be so-and-so's mother or could you be so-and-so's wife or are you old enough to be their daughter it's always in relation to a male character I have to also say that it's so much better now that I'm sitting here over granny stage and getting really great parts. Because somehow when you get out of this sort of, are you attractive, are you sexual object phase, you can find a new life beyond that. In a sort of rather asexual older age, which is another kind of lie because we're not asexual, but there you go. It's something to be employed. So I think one of the problems is that you are, you know, whereas a man is often playing a job on screen, which he can do at any decade,

the women are too closely tied up with the family bond and how they relate to that man. And that's the sort of way it's cast and spun out. Karen, do you think it's changing? I think it is changing. I think that watching women as people in movies is changing. We're allowing actors to have different variety of roles. You don't have to be a wife or a mother or a grandmother or a carer. You can be something dynamic and you don't have to, as a woman anyway, be related to anybody else.

That is beginning to change. Although if we look at films like Nomadland, I'm just wondering how many people are going to go and see that, even though it's an incredibly important, interesting film. Where's the sexuality? Where's the beauty? We've got to see that there are more stories to tell them that. Harriet, you talk there about something which I think is really important to place in the world we're in at the moment, the importance of being employed. And of course, we're coming out, we hope, of a global pandemic. Do you think it's important to ever turn roles down, though, if you don't agree with the way it's it's being put to you because by turning it down doesn't mean it will stop the production from going ahead have you ever done that harriet it is a tricky one there's so many questions um first of all it's a big luxury to turn down a job

i mean there is sort of 90 of our profession are out of work most of the time and so of that working percentage a very small percentage are female so it's a luxury to be able to say I'm not going to do this I have been known to turn something down well certainly I've turned things down that I just didn't feel I could comfortably exist with that character in the way it was portrayed. But more helpful is if you can get in on the creative side and try and influence the way it's portrayed and perhaps change some of the lines or include yourself in a scene where you were excluded. And I was just going to say, we're seeing that, aren't we? Perhaps some of the change with who's making drama now? And you recently having played that brilliant role in Killing Eve, you know, that's created by a largely female team, isn't it? Absolutely. I've done so much more work recently that has come out of the minds of young women and directed by young women.

And when I say young, you might not think they're young, but in their 30s and 40s. And that has had a difference in the way we function and the way we're listened to and the way and sort of a kind of trust that, you know, that they have similar ideas about how a woman should be perceived and have much more sort of left field ideas about a woman, because they're coming from their own experience as being a 360 degree person. And so, you know, I think that's really altering things. Yes, I mean, just to say, if you haven't seen Killing Eve, you played Dasha, a former assassin coach. And there is a scene, I think if I'm right here,

where you go and take a baby and go and put it in the bin while they're making some noise. And that's not something you necessarily associate with anyone, but especially a woman. She's not a role model, I have to say. You know, do as I say, not as I do. But, yeah, no, it's a great sort of, what's the word, sort of transgressive kind of act.

You know, a woman throwing a baby in a bin. It's kind of, says it all. It's the point that women don't always have to be likeable, predictable, everything that you perhaps superimpose onto them in all those ways. Yes. Well, Karen, to you, to bring you back in on this, do you think that there was an interesting conversation

between Sue Johnston and Sean Bean when she rocked up as his mum, having been his wife? How do you imagine that went down, Karen? Oh, I'm glad that Sue spoke up about it. I mean, this has been endemic in Hollywood and storytelling throughout. I mean, Sally Field was playing, you know, Tom Hanks's love interest, then it was his mother in Forrest Gump. And I was looking. Actually, last night I tweeted, does anybody know the reverse of this? Has there ever been a man who was the lover,

then the father, and nobody could come up with anything? Well, I also didn't know the age difference between Anne Bancroft and Dustin Hoffman in The Graduate. Is it true it's only six years? That'd be right. And also, the woman that played Cary Grant's mother in North by Northwest, he was actually 10 months older than she was. So there's weird, I mean, you know, Harriet summed this up so very,

very well, and she speaks from the experience. But I think what she said about the 360 degree character, you know, let's see what, you know, women are people. We do interesting things. We're not just your mother or your daughter or your carer or, you know, somebody sexy. You know, we can do all sorts of things. And I think that that's, it sounds so simple, but it just hasn't happened. Karen Krasanovic and Harriet Walter there. For several years, Harriet has collected images of older women whose faces and lives have inspired and moved her.

These photographs are featured in her book, Facing It, Reflections on Images of Older Women. May I add, gorgeous older women. Now, are we seeing the unashamed return of knick-knack? There's a growing trend for so-called maximalism in home decor. This can mean having a riot of different patterns and colours and textures and also making more space for your treasured objects to go on display. So the opposite of minimalist, which is calm, clean lines.

Princess Anne certainly favours the more is more look, if the recent photo of her sitting room is anything to go by. With more of us at home over the last year, is taking a more maximalist approach to your surroundings a way to treat yourself for not much cash? Emma was joined by Abigail Ahern, interior designer and author of Everything, a maximalist style guide,

and Michelle Agunderhin, head judge on BBC Two's Interior Design Masters and author of Happy Inside, how to harness the power of home for health and happiness. Abigail started by making the case for maximalism. Brings joy to the home. I mean, it lifts the spirits because you're putting in your pad things that have an emotional, that you have an emotional response to and that you love.

Yeah, I have to say, Michelle, this is where I find myself. If I was to put myself on a scale in my own home, I was looking around and that you love. Yeah, I have to say, Michelle, this is where I find myself. If I was to put myself on a scale in my own home, I was looking around and I love patterns. I never really wear anything plain. But in your series, in your show on the BBC, one of the people who went out that week with the style being maximalism in a wedding venue really did go overboard. You know, so when do you know if too much is too much this is the thing I think it's a common misunderstanding that when we think of maximalism we say more is more and we say clashing and actually and I know Abigail will concur with this is a star with great nuance it's about layers it

usually takes one fantastic full fat fulsome kind of patterned, you know, explosion of something, but then everything else flows out in a very measured way from that. And I think often we find that word eclectic used in design, which I have to say is one that like sets off all my kind of klaxons, because that just means everything, anything, everything and anything sort of shoved together. But maximalism is very fine tuned, often around kind of beautiful jewel colours as well. So we're thinking like rubies and topazes. And these are really deep, saturated, gorgeous colours that are all from the same palette. So they fit very seamlessly together.

And I think that's the mistake that we kind of saw. And I mean, it was kind of amazing because you were just like, oh, my goodness. But could you sleep in there? Could you live in that day to day? No, I don't think you could. But I think what that particular designer, and if you haven't seen it, do check it out. It's available on iPlayer. Well, that particular designer did, which I think a lot of people could sympathise with, is that he just started and kept going and adding. And that's what you can do in your own home because, of course, you know, most people don't employ an interior designer. And Abigail, to bring you back in, you know, what if you're adding and then you just keep going and it starts to look absolutely awful?

It can look like you've kind of slugged back seven cups of coffee while nursing a hangover, right? It's just chaotic. It's messy. There's too many colours going on. And I'm all about championing a new kind of maximalism where you're in a space and it feels restorative, it feels serene, it feels calming. And you do that by literally reducing the number of colours in a space and repeating materiality and texture. So it feels very layered and very nuanced and very beautiful, but it doesn't feel chaotic. What if you are a maximalist and you've understood the brief of what you're saying and what Abigail's saying, but you live with a minimalist?

How can this... Abigail's also got a view, I know, but how can you win, Michelle? Oh, gosh, it's inevitable this question comes. I mean, one, of course, we must say there's nothing like winning or losing. We're in a win-win situation here. I mean, one, of course, we must say there's nothing like winning or losing. We're in win-win situations here. I mean, my goodness. I mean, I'd be surprised if these two got together in the first place. But if they did, I mean, creating a home with someone is about the point where your tastes and what you love meet.

I mean, there is always a way. I mean, Abigail kind of said it. It's like it is not a chaotic style. But it could be that you bring it in with the kind of beautiful materials you have like velvets and embroideries but that doesn't mean they all have to be in kind of creola kind of fluorescent colors I mean you know Abigail's aesthetic is very kind of muted in terms of colors it's very sophisticated it's quite kind of dark my kind of colors are more what I call these sort of dirty colors they've always got a little bit of kind of gray mixed in them but I love. I love things because those things tell a story

of your life. So if we are maximalists in our fictional home, if their things are telling the story of their life and that is loved by their minimalist partner, it's simply about containing them. So I mean, my top trick always with kind of stuff is like the display shelf, the sort of floating shelf you can put between, you know, say cupboards or in an alcove and then you put all your beautiful things there and it just means that's your celebration of your things but it's not kind of everywhere so it's not about chaos it's not about mess it's not about clashing but abigail the minimalist to that shelf that has just been described would perhaps put their arm along it with a bag beneath and just put all the things in. Abigail, final word to you on this. Perhaps, how do you get to a happy place if you've got different styles within the home? draw because there's no intrigue and there's no magic. So I couldn't be living with that person. I'm really sorry. I'd love to say you can work it out, but I personally couldn't work it out.

They would have to literally go. And if you are a maximalist living with a minimalist, get in touch with the show. Michelle did. She emailed to say when many of the immigrants from the Caribbean who answered the call to come to Britain to help rebuild the country in the 50s and 60s. They brought their island homes with them and decorated their homes with lots of colour all over. The display of such colour served as a reminder of the bright colours back home. Colour brought joy and evoked memories. This explosion of joy was displayed with a pride for the sacred front room of the home.

Sounds wonderful. Now to mark International Women's Day on Monday, the classical violinist Madeleine Mitchell will direct a live-streamed concert at St John Smith Square celebrating a century of music by British women from 1921 to 2021 with her London Chamber Ensemble. She's put together a range of chamber music celebrating some of the finest British female composers of the past 100 years and includes the world premiere of a new work by Errolyn Wallen CBE called Sojourner Truth after the great abolitionist and campaigner for women's rights. I began by asking Madeleine how you go about compiling a list of female composers. Two years ago, on International Women's Day 2019, with the release of my album of the chamber music by Grace Williams, a Welsh composer born in 1906 with the London Chamber Ensemble for Naxos, and none of this music had been recorded before,

and some of it was unpublished, so it wasn't known. And we were absolutely thrilled with the reception that this received. In fact, the director of the BBC National Orchestra of Wales heard me on Woman's Hour and as a result, asked me to record the Grace Williams Violin Concerto. But there are so many fabulous women composers. And I discovered this marvellous piano trio by Rebecca Clark, the oldest composer that we're featuring. She was born in 1886. And this piece was written in 1921. So I thought, oh, that's exactly a century ago. She was one of the first professional players in a London orchestra. She had to support herself as well as composing. She was a viola player. And a lot of her music had been neglected,

although this piano trio was first performed in Wigmore Hall in 1921. And I just thought, well, it would really be the culmination to commission a new work by Errolyn Wallen. Let me bring Errolyn in on this. Errolyn, what a gift to be asked to be composed for this concert. Oh, yes, Anita, it's a tremendous honour. There are two Judith Weir pieces included, including this one. I think we should have listened to some music. This is Atlantic Drift. Madeline, tell me what we're listening to. We'll let it play underneath. This is called Sleep Sound in the Morning,

which is from a group of pieces called Atlantic Drift. It describes the celebrating the flow of traditional music from the British Isles to North America and back again. And Judith is the first female master of the Queen's music. We're also including another piece of hers called The Bagpiper String Trio. Errolyn, tell us about your piece that you've composed for this. It's called Sojourner Truth. What was the idea behind it?

You know, I've been so inspired by women that have gone before us. Sojourner Truth, she campaigned against slaves. She was an abolitionist and a human rights, women's rights activist. And she escaped slavery. She couldn't read or write, yet she gave these phenomenal speeches. And I wanted to write a piece remembering her. And I wanted her title, her name to be in the title so that she's never forgotten. I mean, the spirit and energy, Isabella Eandy was talking that I mean the spirit and energy Isabella Eandy

was talking about this the spirit and energy of this one was incredible I thought let that be my inspiration for this piece from Adeline. She went to court didn't she and won even though she was illiterate? Yeah she went to she's the first black woman to recover her son from slavery and she she represented herself in court I mean incredible how did you try to capture her story in music well I took a spiritual it's called over the crossing and it's a fantastic piece and then I I sort of worked with that as the theme I think we can listen to a little bit of it. And that concert will be live-streamed on the 8th of March at 8pm

on the St John Smith Square website and at the same time on their Facebook channel. That's it from me. Have a wonderful weekend. Emma will be back on Monday from 10 o'clock. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.