Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Perinatal pelvic health, ‘Grey pound’ fashion, Jilly Cooper, Swearing, Hot flushes

Episode Date: November 11, 2023

The Government has announced £11 million in funding for the NHS in England to roll out a dedicated perinatal pelvic health service across all trusts. The aim of these new perinatal pelvic health services will be to help educate and assess women during pregnancy and after a traumatic birth – but how will it work? Emma Barnett hears from Jacqui Barrett, who had a traumatic birth and was incontinent for a year, Professor Swati Jha, consultant gynaecologist and spokesperson for the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, and the Conservative MP Maria Caulfield, who is the Women’s Health Minister. Luxury brands are beginning to feature ‘timeless icons’ in their campaigns to attract older shoppers with more spending power. Is the fashion industry finally responding to the strength of the so-called 'grey pound'? Alexandra Schulman, journalist and former editor-in-chief of British Vogue and retail analyst Kate Hardcastle discuss. Jilly Cooper has sold more than two million copies of her books, including Riders, Rivals, and Polo - taking us into the glamorous worlds of show jumping and classical music. Her latest novel, Tackle!, takes us to the football pitch and features her legendary hero Rupert Campbell-Black. Jilly joins Emma to talk about football, why there is less sex in her novels now, and her view on Prime Minister Rishi Sunak reading her books. Why do we swear, and are women judged differently for swearing than men? Why are some swear words considered more offensive than others, and what does that tell us about misogyny and sexism in society? Dr Emma Byrne, scientist and author of Swearing Is Good For You: The Amazing Science of Bad Language, and Dr Rebecca Roache, the author of a new book, For F's Sake: Why Swearing is Shocking, Rude and Fun, discuss. The ABC News Breakfast guest host Imogen Crump has been praised for helping to normalise symptoms of perimenopause, after she experienced a severe hot flush on live television. Emma asks her about what happened.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Afternoon all, welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. Settle in for 60 minutes of great interviews. Coming up, the TV guest host in Australia who went viral after she stopped what she was doing on live TV because she was having on live TV because she was having a hot perimenopausal flush. Jilly Cooper on her latest novel and the joy of having

sex. And we're swearing, or at least we're talking about swearing. But first, the government has announced £11 million in funding for the NHS in England to roll out a dedicated perinatal pelvic health service across all trusts. According to the Department of Health and Social Care, one in three women experience urinary incontinence three months after pregnancy and one in seven experience anal incontinence six months after birth. But these conditions can affect women's relationships, mental health and even their ability to work. The aim of these perinatal pelvic health services will be to help educate and assess women during pregnancy and after a traumatic birth. But how will it work? And is it enough?

Well, Emma spoke to Jackie Barrett, who had a traumatic birth and was incontinent for a year, and Professor Swati Jha, consultant gynaecologist and spokesperson for the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. She began by asking Swati what the service is and who it was for. The perinatal pelvic health service is basically aimed at improving care pathways for women needing support after birth. The newly published perinatal Pelvic Health Service implementation recommends that the OAC care bundle developed by the RCOG is rolled out across all the maternity units. That's the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists for people who

don't know. Yes. So the RCOG initially conducted a survey just to give you a sense of the enormity of the problem we're dealing with. And 60% of all women have described one or the other pelvic floor problem, whether that's urinary incontinence or prolapse or bowel dysfunction. So that's how common this problem is. And yet one in four women have never done pelvic floor exercises. And just to top that up, 69% of women have never spoken to anybody about their pelvic floor health. Let me bring in who I'm about to talk to here in the studio, who's just joined me as well, to talk of your experience. Because, Jackie, you go in for your birth and you have a very difficult birth. It lasts some days, I understand.

And you are left in a position. I mean, you tell me, you now look at it and think you should have had a C-section. But you are left in a position where you are having to get towels out of the cupboard to mop up what's going on with you for many, many days and weeks afterwards. That's right. Yeah. So my birth was episiotomy and forceps. And there's a whole backstory to that. But for context of this conversation, that the damage from that delivery caused significant bladder incontinence. And I appreciate the point that we, as women,

we need to prepare ourselves. But I really thought I was girl guide prepared and well informed. I can be a bit of a swot. So I did all my NCT classes. I read that big, chunky what to expect book. I exercise loads. I did yoga, swimming. My bladder incontinence was really bad. And those chunky towels were not fit for purpose. I had to go to the laundry cupboard and help myself to bath towels and roll them up, put them between my legs and then waddle to the floor below to feed and change my baby who was in neonatal special care. A week later, I was sent home and me and my baby had all the usual checkups. I was diligent with that little red book. In fact, I've brought it because it was a real Bible. But in terms of checkups on my baby, but nobody asked me about incontinence ever.

I suppose your point there is nothing that you had done in advance could help you with then what you were trying to live with. Absolutely not. I mean, I was above and beyond prepared in terms of what I did pre birth. I had a beautiful pregnancy. It was serene. It was all the trauma from the birth. And your experience then, ideally, you'd tell this to a doctor and you'd be referred to a gynaecologist, perhaps also to a physio, you know, whatever level this was at at a certain point, and you'd be looked after in a timely fashion.

What was the reality? Well, the reality? Well, the reality was nobody asked me about it. And I was so utterly broken and exhausted for various reasons. And I felt like my bladder was way down the pecking order in what I could even discuss. I was convinced there was so much more damage here. Exercises were just not going to fix it. Were you offered any physiotherapy? So eventually I was given some physio and I'm not a defeatist type of person, but I knew that this physio, these exercises were almost futile. In some respect, I couldn't

believe that this physio couldn't tell that this damage could not be fixed. Because that's what we should say at this point. So this was, what did happen? What have you had to have? So I had to have surgery, but I finally persisted. I saw a consultant about 10 months later and after a very quick, simple examination, that consultant told me it's cases like mine that make him advise his wife to have a C-section

when the time comes. And rather than being shocked, I was so relieved. This was professional confirmation that this was bad. It was validation. It was acknowledgement that it's not my fault and it's not because I'm not doing enough. And the surgery was to do what? And the surgery is called a colpo suspension

and it was a very simple surgery. And I got my life back. I got my bladder back. I got my life back. I got my bladder back. I got my life back. I got married a few months later. Let me just bring in Swati at this point. I believe she's been listening to what you have to say. What is your response? Because doing the exercises, just talking about that, the idea of pre your birth being prepared, in this case, you can hear is to no avail. First of all, I'm very sorry to hear of your experiences, Jackie. No woman should ever have

to face what you had to go through. And I think the other thing to emphasise, the mother and baby are a team and so they need to be managed as a team. And that is one of the objectives of this service, because we recognise that we have been focusing purely on babies who obviously need most attention, but we also need to focus on the mothers. But we mustn't undermine the importance of physiotherapy, because 70% of women will improve with physiotherapy. And I'm so sorry to hear that you didn't. But that doesn't mean to say we shouldn't try to at least, I'm a surgeon at the end of the day. I always say to my patients, you can't go back to do physiotherapy

once you've had surgery. Give it a good go. And if it doesn't work, we're here. But what we have to remember is one of the other things or one of the other objectives of this service specification is exactly what you've highlighted, Jackie, which is improving the rate of identification of these problems when they happen and ensuring timely access to services, access to a urogynecologist. So I hope that going forwards, women will not be in a situation where they have to go through what Jackie has been through. I hope that we are in a position to provide access to services antennately to all women and easy access to those women who need it postnatally and going forwards. Postnatally extends to the rest of our lives. Problems with our pelvic floor can happen at any point in a woman's life. What do you want to say in response, Jackie? Yeah, I agree. There should

be more help when we're talking about the funding. Is that enough? There's a whole backlog of women. I mean, I've got friends who had babies 10 years ago and they're still struggling. And like you say, this is a lifetime issue. When the lactating has stopped, when the stitches have healed, when the babies have gone to uni, we're still dealing with our issues. And there isn't enough touch points for us to talk about this. Jackie Barrett and Professor Swati Jha there. While listening to that was Women's Health Minister Maria Caulfield. Emma asked her why it's taken so long for these services to come about.

I think this is symptomatic of women's health in general, whether it's the menopause or whether it's things like endometriosis very often there's been a culture that things that women do naturally such as giving birth there shouldn't doesn't need to be intervention and support and actually that is you know absolutely changing. Our rollout of perinatal pelvic health services now is actually taking a step back in terms of Jackie's experience and looking at those women who are at risk of maybe tears during labour, because there are some risk factors. And where we've been rolling this out in some parts of the country, we've seen a reduction of around 20%. You know, we can't eliminate the risks of tear

and birth trauma completely. And so, as Jackie pointed out, when it does happen, there needs to be help and support from others, both at the time, but also for longer term as well. And so, the rollout of perinatal health services, which will be across England, obviously Health is a Devolved Matter, we're doing this just in England, all areas of England by March will have,

some have set them up and are running already, but will have started those services being available and changing that culture of having these discussions both before Labour and giving women choices. Jackie touched on it, that some women would have a C-section if that was available. But these discussions have not been had with women. And then they're left picking up the pieces afterwards. £11 million of funding works out around £19 per woman in England in terms of the number of women who gave birth for the latest data. Is that enough? It's not just about funding, it's about how we organise services. And so the perinatal pilots that we've been doing in 28 areas of the country are the ones that have seen a reduction of 20% of injuries. So we know that with the existing services, by delivering them in a slightly different way, is able to

have an effect. So the funding is one part of it, but it's about changing the culture. I get that. Prevention is really important, but you aren't going to prevent it all. 20% is still quite low. And you are then going to need serious support afterwards if you've got certain issues. Postnatal care has never been where it's meant to be in this country. Everyone actually can agree on that. I'm sure you would as well. So the issue is, can you then get the support of, for instance,

if you don't need surgery, women's health physios for long enough and quick enough? This funding is one piece of maternity funding. We've got £168 million a year going into workforce funding specifically for maternity services, and that will include midwives, but it will also include maternity physios as well. So there is a greater effort. I don't think maternity has had the focus it's getting right now

in terms of trying to turn around services for women. It's always been seen as something wrong. It's going terribly wrong, isn't it? It's going really, really badly, Minister. I mean, under your care, may I just remind our listeners of the latest annual state of care report by the NHS Watchdog. I'm sure this will have astonished you. 65% of maternity services are now regarded as inadequate

or require improvement for safety up from 54% last year. Do you know how bad it is? And do you know which direction it's going? Absolutely. And it's going in the right direction. It's going in the wrong direction. Sorry, I've got the data in front of me. Emma, if I can just set the scene for you. We have got inquiry after inquiry, the Donna Ockenden inquiry, the Bill Kirkup inquiry into East Kent. There have been problems to maternity services for decades and when they've been assessed if you look at the ratings of those hospitals traditionally they've been assessed as good and that clearly hasn't been the case so we have got a much more robust inspection system

which will record units as not performing well because we actually want to know the state of the problem rather than doing inspections that just gloss over some of the problems these have been fundamental problems for decades not just in recent years and we have set up programs for those that come in are rated as inadequate or require improvement we've got 32 of those units now going through programs to transform them and they are coming out at the other end and starting to get big ratings this is about fundamentally changing eternity which is very important and i'm talking about safety only because i've just heard from a woman who didn't feel like what happened to her was okay and that and it's important to get a clear picture of that but you talk about decades and decades we've had the conservative party for more than a decade so it feels feels for some, why only now? Yes, okay, you can make the

point that the reports are being more thorough, so you get a better picture. But if it's going in the wrong direction, there's also detail in this report, talking about a staff under great pressure and not being able to look after women. If you want to help women's postnatal care, it's about them having safe births in the first place and having a good experience with those around them. If you look at the work we're doing to transform the East Kent Trust, which we had Bill Kirkup report some tragedies that happened there decades ago, as well as in more recent times, we are seeing a transformation of that unit where women are now saying that they feel better listened to by their teams and having a better experience.

If you look at the work, you know, in Cornwall, for example, we've now got a waiting list of a student midwives waiting to train in trusts there. So we are starting to turn the corner. But the way to do that is actually to admit that there's been problems for years. And, you know, we hear that in the women's health strategy all the time that women haven't felt listened to when they've tried to access care when they've raised concerns or tried to get help it's not been available we are transforming that and yes acknowledging that there are fundamental problems but we're putting the funding and resources in to turn that around and this isn't about who's in government that we've got exactly the same problems in the devolved nations in scotland and wales so to change this it's about changing the culture listening to women and the perinatal services, the pelvic services that we're setting up is absolutely for too long. It's just being seen as acceptable that one in three women experience urinary

incontinence three months after giving birth. That's not acceptable when we know that can be prevented in many cases. And if it starts to happen, can be managed. And we are the first government to actually try to tackle this and try and deliver an improvement in women's health across the board. Possibly at the end of your term. That may be. Why has it taken so long? You're someone who's worked as a nurse.

You know the NHS. You care about it. Why has it taken so long? We have set up the Women's Health Strategy just two years ago. Just two years ago? You've had 10 years before that. I'm interested. Why do you think?

Is it the macho culture that we've heard so much about in the COVID inquiry? Well, if you look in Wales where Labour run the health service there, they've got all the women's health structure. Don't do that. You're saying to me. Come on, talk to me about what you can talk about, which is your government, the party of government. Come on. It's

so good to have you on the programme. I'm genuinely trying to get an answer from you. Why has it taken the Conservatives so long? You've been telling me in the last two years, you've had ten before that. We didn't. The first five years we were in coalition with the Lib Dem, I wasn't even an MP during some of those years. I'm not saying you, I'm just

saying, OK, your party has still had power in the coalition. You know it's a bad day when you're having to blame Nick Clegg. Well, no, it's not a bad day. I'm really proud that we are the first government ever to have a women's health strategy to put maternity as a priority area, to put perinatal pelvic health services. That is great.

That women don't even want to talk about because it's embarrassing, it's difficult, you know, it affects their self-esteem, it affects relationships. Honestly, we know this. We're women's there. We know. You know we know. I'm just trying to understand

why it's taken so long and if you've really got the long-term commitment which is what we were hearing from our doctor the funding that's needed from those at the very top of the table because hearing about whatsapp messages that we weren't meant to get access to but we're now hearing about that the macho culture around health, around COVID, led to decision making being done in a way that some of the key women didn't feel comfortable about. I wonder how comfortable you feel about it and the long term commitment. I'm very encouraged that for the first time ever, you've got government ministers talking about organ prolapses, urinary incontinence, anal incontinence and driving that forward as the top of the agenda. And that by March next year, every part of England will have a set up perinatal pelvic health services. Maybe taking us a while to get there, but we are the first government to drive this change forward.

Women's Health Minister Maria Caulfield there. Now, how much money do you spend on fashion? Well, luxury brands are beginning to feature timeless icons in their campaigns to attract older shoppers with more spending power. Dame Maggie Smith, Charlotte Rampling and Dame Mary Berry have all been featured in adverts for Loewe, Massimo Dutti and Burberry, where brands would normally work with models half their age. According to figures from McKinsey, the percentage of baby

boomers planning to spend on fashion over the next three months is up by 5%, whereas for millennials, this has dropped by 6%. So is the fashion industry finally responding to the strength of the so-called grey pound, the purchasing power of older people as consumers? To discuss this, I spoke to Alexandra Shulman, journalist and former editor in chief of British Vogue, and also retail analyst Kate Hardcastle. I started by asking Kate what the figures suggest, who's spending and who isn't. There's a shift in terms of the buying power of what you're calling the grey pound. I prefer silver. I don't suppose any word's quite right, but it seems to be oriented around the fact that there is opportunity to sell

to that marketplace and particularly we've seen within the luxury sector a need to be able to recoup and find new markets when it's getting incredibly tough we know the cost of living is impacted on that and it doesn't really take a rocket science to work out that when we've got a group of people in 50 plus who tend to be amongst those who are house owners aren't as impacted not everyone of course but not as impacted for their cost of living there's an opportunity for them perhaps not to retire which seems to be a an idea of just going and hiding away but to be jubilant and celebrate and travel more and get into fashion more so that's the market it's a low hanging fruit the question

for me all the way through is the business is is this another sustainability green washing another diversity or a rainbow washing piece where we're just seeing um these models just being portrayed in huge brand advertisements but when you get into the core of the business is the reality that an over 50 woman would be respected equally in the boardroom as in the advertising i think that's where we've really got to do some digging because the one thing i can tell you about over 50 consumers smart agile emotionally intelligent and they will see through anything that looks like it's fake well we've got a lot of them listening to the program now and they're getting in touch to tell us about their shopping habits um we've got message here saying um i have worked in fashion for many years and getting dressed every day has

always been a fun creative part of my day i'm 61 and refuse to buy into the marketing campaigns that target the older consumer the distinctions between age groups are blurred in other aspects of life i don't feel genuine um it's just gimmicky. Love the Loewe Maggie Smith images, but no doubt they will revert to 20-year-old models in the next campaign. Carol says, I'm 70 next week. Happy birthday for next week, Carol. My wardrobe now consists of 30% much-loved old clothes

and 70% bought from the charity shop. Anyone looking inside my wardrobe would have no idea if I'm 70 or 17. Love that. Recent purchases include knee-high laced Doc Martin style boots. I've not developed a love of sensible clothing. I wear what feels right and fits right. And I love giving another life to high quality branded clothing that someone else no longer wants.

Is there a sudden change in spending, Kate? It's not sudden, no. Actually, the spending power has been there for quite some time. In fact, McKinsey, who were quoted just recently, I think you mentioned earlier, this 5% more propensity to spend amongst these baby boomers, of which I'm nearly one, is seen as the opportunity where we've seen a 5% drop in millennials. McKinsey were reporting in 2007, actually, that they saw the growth of the 50-plus consumer. They would be leading the economy.

So we've seen this, and we've also seen this almost tokenism in advertising before. LVMH, the group who actually owned Louis V, in 2016, I think, were using actresses of a 70-plus age range. But actually, does it cut through? That's the thing. We need credibility.

You know, things can be in and out. And I'm sure Alexandra will tell us all about that. Colours can be in and out. Shape can be in and out. Age shouldn't be in and out. The respect and authenticity that's needed from brand to consumer should be consistent all the way through.

Well, let's bring Alexandra in to give us her thoughts. What were your first thoughts when you saw the pictures? Something to be celebrated or something to be wary of? i think some of them are great and some of them less so i kind of agree with everything that kate said i think it's very um easy to see this kind of use of of much older models to sell luxury brands as a bit of a gimmick. I have to say, I mean, Maggie Smith in Loewe, I mean, she looks at least 20 years older than she actually is. I mean, there's this kind of thing whereby you can be really, really old for fashion, but what you can't be is kind of middle-aged. And I think that's one of the areas where I have a bit of a problem I think when you've got

somebody like Mary Berry for Burberry I mean it's a lovely idea but really there is no real connection between her and Burberry whereas Phoebe Philo at Celine in 2016. She had Joan Didion, the writer, as her sunglasses model. And I think that had a real kind of authenticity because Didion always wore sunglasses and Celine was aimed at a kind of cool intellectual women. I think it very much depends whether there's a real connection between what the brand is and the person they're using. Age, to me, is kind of irrelevant. I mean, that connection can be there with a 20-year-old or it can be there with an 80-year-old. I'd like to see more kind of 50-year-olds being included in the mix. Why do you think they've done it then?

Because we're talking about it. I mean, in the campaign with Maggie Smith, they had, I think it was four young models of which nobody has mentioned a single one of them. They were an equal part of the campaign. But Maggie Smith and Loewe got front page headlines. I mean, they're doing it to attract attention. That's what advertising is about. It's to attract attention to the brand. I just wonder why they don't aim. I mean, let's get into this a little bit, because, Kate, why are they not aiming at that certain middle-aged demographic that Alexandra's talking about? Because the older demographic have always had spending power. This isn't anything new, is it? It isn't new. And some recent research came out at the start of the year. Just listen to this from an organization called Bias Cut.

Eighty eight percent of women, 50 plus, feel they are poorly represented in all media. And they even created some stock images. Stock images are kind of library shots. So when an article is written and maybe you don't have an image for it, you can slot in a picture that's relevant. There was even within stock images a huge amount of that age group missing I feel like I've entered the age of invisibility and I'm 47 and I think you know it makes sense for fashion houses to realize the opportunity because of course what's happening if you feel this way at this age younger women are going to fear aging because they're going to feel that invisibility is on the horizon so there's financial

sense behind it and therefore I've got to think about the boardrooms I've been in even the factory floors I've worked on internationally were body shapes of a 30 plus women being monitored understood as we go through changes physically to make shape and size and fit done I've never seen that happen I've never I've never witnessed that happen. I've never witnessed that. Have I heard the voice of the consumer at that age group represented fairly within the culture of an organisation? Very rarely seen it happen. And if you start digging into the amount of CEOs that we've got, the diversity piece, there is a long way to go.

Alexandra, you were editor-in-chief of British Vogue for 25 years. Do you think you had enough older models on the pages? Well, we certainly had enough older women included in the magazine because it was something that I felt very strongly about. I think everybody kind of liked to try and bang the gong for what they're part of. So I was very, very keen. It was one of my big things was to try and show women of all ages wearing fashion

you know it is quite complicated because we people talked a lot about a magazine for older women for instance launching why are there no magazines for older women well older women don't want to read a magazine for them you know why are there no shops for the older market nobody wants to go into a shop for an older market we we don't want to be siloed in that way and um i disagree with kate about the invisibility thing i mean i sort of feel like actually there are a lot of great uh women older out there doing interesting things now sort of more and more we've got a long way to go, but there still are. So I think there's kind of hope. But as far as actual fashion is concerned and sort of fashion imagery,

which in a way is what we're talking about, you know, that again is a complicated thing. You know, I'm quite a sucker. I was looking the other day in a catalogue at a beautiful young blonde girl wearing a velvet trouser suit and I thought yeah that trouser suit's really nice and I kind of I know I'm not going to look like her if I buy that trouser suit but she looked so great in it it propelled me to want to buy it so I think we have to be realistic about people not only wanting to see representations

of themselves to be sold things what do you think Kate I didn't say that there weren't over 45 women not doing brilliant things I just want to hear more of them and I do want to see my body shape and size represented in the clothes because I'm if we look at the even the basics from a commercial element of it returns is one of the biggest issues online retail companies face and the returns are because of sizing fit and issues so if you see something that you can see realistically how it fits on you then you're gonna have you know buy something you feel better about and hopefully connect more with and i think it's also about putting confidence in a different way it's

going back to that piece of the credibility actually layering in a spirit within these organizations that isn't just about selling it's actually about interacting engaging and as we see brands get savvier through social media it's conversational rather than just a heightened identity of a brand telling us what we will wear or won't wear or can wear or can't wear it's got to be this immersive piece where we as consumers feel the power of our purse actually connects with these brands and feels like we're actually being respected and I think that's the majority of feedback I get back from research we just want to feel respected and part of the decision making. And what do you think to that

Alexandra or is that are we missing the point of high fashion, which is, as you said, you know, it's aspirational. We are meant to look at these photographs and admire youth beauty and until very recently, white beauty. I think there are so many ideas that we're unpicking here. The question of older women's place in society and the question of luxury brand advertising are really too completely. As far as luxury brands are, I think that they just want people to buy. They want to promote their goods. Obviously, they like the idea that people kind of feel invested in the idea of them, but they feel invested in a brand that i think is aspirational when you come into the more attainable middle market where we're all shopping you know the zaras the uniclose

or whatever there's a very different thing going on there and there i feel like the customer does want to be feel like they're part of the conversation but i think i would say that we have to credit the consumer with a certain kind of intelligence at understanding what they're looking at. You know, I think people are used to an idea that you interpret images. You don't have to be told that they are exactly what you are applying to your, you know, to your beliefs and criteria. But, you know, that's my feeling about it. I guess I edited a, you know to your beliefs and criteria but you know that's my feeling about it i guess i edited a you know a luxury magazine yeah i've got to ask you about um the big cuts and changes that have taken place at vogue since you left uh they've axed the job of british editor

in chief there's no longer a bespoke french vogue british vogue has also now left its famous office vogue house in london What have you made of the changes? Can I just say no comment? If you want to, or you can give me an answer. I mean, I think, you know, all publishing companies are having to look at the way they operate. It's not true there is a bespoke French Vogue, by the way. I think it's really sad that the international Vogue are becoming more merged together. One of the great things about editing Vogue was that it was very

much a sort of reflection of the different cultures. It was its strengths. I don't quite understand the rationale for thinking that magazines can have a kind of global identity. But if you want to cut staff, I guess that's the way to do it. I'm kind of pleased I'm just not having to edit the magazine while it's happening. Alexandra Shulman and Kate Hardcastle. Now, if you ever find yourself thinking about a topic you would love to hear discussed on Woman's Hour, we would like to hear about it. Just contact us by going to our website and dropping us an email or via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, Riders, Rivals and Polo. How many have you read? Jilly Cooper has sold more than two million copies of her books, taking us into the glamorous worlds

of show jumping and classical music and giving many an unofficial sex education en route. Now her latest novel, Tackle, takes us to the football pitch and features her legendary hero Rupert Campbell Black. Emma asked her, why football? Well I think football's

exciting and it's the most, I mean more people watch football and it cheers the world, I mean, more people watch football. It cheers the world up. I mean, sometimes it cheered people up more than sex because, you know, people watch it and if their team wins, they're terribly excited for a week and they're happy and then they get a bit sad the next week. And I think we all need cheering up at the moment. It's a brilliant game. I believe you sat with Alex Ferguson and heard from him a bit about this world? I sat next to him at lunch and he was a bit scared

because I thought he might be too important to sit next to me, but he was so sweet and so funny and we giggled so much and I told him a few naughty stories and he told me some and I just fell in love with him and just thought, why not write a book about football? What naughty stories do you tell Alex Ferguson at lunch? Not sure that it's... No, it's about a lot of naughty mice in Scotland.

I don't think I want to tell you, do I? You can't blame a girl for trying. OK, so there's a lot of football, there's a lot of intrigue, there's a lot of characters and plots, as there always are in your books, and slightly less sex than normal? Well, slightly less sex because I think I'm 86 now and I always, in my life, I always like to write about things that describe things as I go along. And because my darling husband died 10 years ago, I mean, I haven't really got an example. I think there is a bit

less sex, but there's quite a lot of sex, but not as much as there was. You know, it's an important point to sort of write as you find the world and as you are. But it is something that people do associate with your books and remember fondly, perhaps sneaking their mum's copy and having a look and learning a lot. Lovely. How do you feel about that? You've been an unofficial sex educator. I think it's wonderful. I mean, because I've always thought sex was heaven if you enjoyed it. And I think people should enjoy it. And it brings an enormous amount of pleasure in life, like football is. So I think it's lovely. I've encouraged people to have more sex.

I'm very pleased. Tell us, in terms of your story, this particular story, you have tackled the fact that, for instance, one of the characters has breast cancer. There's a very good description of her side effects during treatment. And you're trying to show those difficulties, but also within relationships as well. Yeah, I am. I think I'm terrifying about cancer. And I think so many people are so brave.

And so my lovely Taggy, my heroine, she has it. But she's so kind, Taggy. If a new dog comes to stay in the house, she puts flowers in its basket. So she's a real sweetheart. I love her. So I hope dealing with her cancer will encourage people to

look after themselves and comfort them. You also worry about the emasculation of men. You have a character called Iron Man. Iron Man? Isn't that awful? Yes. Poor man. I love Iron Man. He's one of my heroes. He's called Iron Man because Iron Man means very strong, doesn't it?

Masculine. But he's called Iron Man because he's terribly henpecked and the team are jogging past his house and they look in the kitchen window and he's ironing his wife's dresses. So he's ironed like that. Yeah, so he's called Iron Man. But you also, coming back to the sex point, I've read before that you have some concerns

that we're sort of having less of it or we're not enjoying it as much and we're perhaps not viewing each other in the most attractive lights anymore. Or the sexes. Yeah, and how women view men and how they see them. Well, I think the sexes should cherish each other. And I think I love masculine, macho men. I love them.

Gorgeous. Clark Gable, do you remember people like that in my day? And I just think one needs... I just think... And if you look at stallions, stallions are still macho, aren't they? And bulls and all those things. I just think it's...

I don't like men to be put down all the time because they seem to be terribly belittled at the moment. You think that? I mean, obviously, it depends on where the power balance is, I suppose, between the particular woman and the particular man. But you can't do anything. A man cannot put his hand on a woman's shoulder without being accused of rape these days.

Come on, that's not exactly true, is it? Well, not perhaps a bit lower than that, probably, but definitely you do get accused of all sorts of things and it's very difficult for them. And also, if you put a hand on a girl's shoulder 20 years ago, she'll suddenly come out of the woodwork and say, this man tried to seduce me years ago. You like detail. You know that women, where there have been very serious accusations, you know, it has to be documented.

They come forward and you yourself went through some of these moments. And I mean, surely you welcome in some way that there's a chance to redress the power imbalances where there are difficulties. Of course, of course, yes. But I just think men are awfully a bit depressed at the moment. Is that men around you? Do you hear that? Well, I live in the country, so I don't see many. Mainly dogs and horses, it seems. Dogs and horses, yes. No, but it is interesting.

I mean, there is a particular man who's apparently reading your work, Rishi Sunak. Isn't that lovely? Tell me about this. What's happened? Well, no, I mean, there is a particular man who's apparently reading your work, Rishi Sunak. Isn't that lovely? Tell me about this. What's happened? Well, no, I mean, he just said so. I just read it somewhere that he loved my books. And what was so lovely was he named them Riders, Rivals, Polo and all that sort of thing. And he knew all the titles. I was so touched. I love that. So when you're talking about men who feel demasculated, depressed, you know, are you talking about him as well, do you think, in this? No, no, I hope he gets cheered up by that. He does read them for a laugh, a cheer up. I don't mean to be silly because I love women. I love both sexes, but I just want them to cherish

each other and admire each other rather than sort of putting each other down all the time. We have another man now, a new man in charge, as it were, in terms of the royal family, a king, and you've been close for years to now the Queen, to Camilla. I believe accepting an award on her behalf

at the Oldie, was it the Oldie Awards? You collected something on her behalf. Yeah. I mean, it's quite a thing. I'm just thinking with the spectacle

of the King's speech yesterday and seeing the two of them, you know, taking on these roles that we've for so long seen with Her Majesty, with the late Queen. How do you think she's taking to that role? I think she's absolutely brilliant because she's looking gorgeous.

She's really looking gorgeous at the moment and she's fun. And I love the idea of wherever she goes, she's always cheered me up and wherever she goes, she'll be cheering people up. And I think she's brilliant. Yeah, I mean, it's quite a big job to have. I mean it's her age, suddenly having to get up I mean she used to she liked horses and reading

so she used to spend quite a lot of time on the sofa reading in the old days but I shouldn't think she has any time for that now because she has to get up and do three different appointments in a day and get up very, very early and she's sort of in her 70s and it's not much fun that. Well, there is still a reading club, I believe. Yes, brilliant reading club.

There is all of that. And you're a great diary keeper, is that right? Yes, yes, yes. But I keep diaries all across the house. I mean, all across my study, masses of them. But I keep saying to my children, they're quite naughty, these diaries. And I said to my children, darling, you want me to burn them so you won't be embarrassed?

Would you like to be embarrassed and rich? What have they gone for? I don't know, but I mean, they're quite a lot of goings on in the past. So they're quite interesting. I bet they are. And also describing other people and being awful about some of the people I've met too, which is quite embarrassing too, because one always tells the truth in one's stories. Jilly Cooper talking to Emma there.

And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast for free via the Woman's Hour website. Now, if you've been following the Covid inquiry, you may have noticed a lot of strong and sweary language. So why do we swear? And are women judged differently for swearing than men? Why are some swear words considered more offensive than others? And what does that tell us about misogyny and sexism in society? Well, I spoke to Dr Emma Byrne,

scientist and author of Swearing is Good for You, The Amazing Science of Bad Language, and Dr Rebecca Roach, the author of a new book, For F's Sake, Why Swearing is Shocking, Rude and Fun. And yes, we discussed some difficult language that some may find offensive. I started by asking Rebecca why we swear in the first place. Probably an obvious one is we swear to let off steam. So it has this role in venting emotion. You know, if you stub your toe or if you have a disappointing experience or a fantastic experience, then swearing is one of the ways that we can vent emotion. But it's not the only thing that we use swearing for. We can use swearing to

try and insult or offend people, of course, but also in establishing trust and intimacy. So the way that we might use swearing in a group of close friends might be sort of benign and affectionate even. There's lots of reasons. Are women judged more harshly for swearing? And why do we think that is? Yeah, I think there's still this taboo around women swearing. I mean, sort of we're maybe past the times when you just couldn't swear in front of women. That would have been a real taboo. But I think sort of just noticing myself that especially men will often be more taken aback to hear swearing from a woman compared to a man. And that's actually, you know, that's kind of amusing and entertaining.

But there's also a serious point there, right? It means that women potentially pay a higher price for swearing than men do. Emma, there's been a small study about these double standards, hasn't there? That's right. And it's slightly outdated now, at least I hope it is. It was done in the early 2000s. And the way it was done was to send out randomised studies with swearing phrases in. And those phrases either had a woman's name or a man's name as the ostensible speaker. And they asked people to rate how reliable, how trustworthy, how intelligent, how just generally how good these people were. And the women all paid higher social

penalties for these swearing phrases in the men. But one thing that makes me really hopeful that we might be changing is what happened at the COVID inquiry the other day, in that both Dominic Cummings and Helen McNamara had been using swearing. And to Rebecca's point, the ways in which they use their swearing were completely different. And I didn't see Helen McNamara getting the kind of vitriol for what she'd said that Dominic Cummings had had for his, let's face it, fairly misogynistic comments. So I hope if that study were to be repeated now, maybe those results would be a little less stark. I have to say my own experience is my, I wrote a book and it's got a few swear words in it because I'm an adult female and in

real life I've been known to to swear um but whenever I've done interviews about it people seem to be a little bit shocked that because not I and I think it's not only because I'm a woman I'm a I'm a South Asian woman and I think there's a little twist there's an added layer of shock that uh I might know what these words are um why are swear words about women's bodies considered more offensive Rebecca yeah this Yeah, this is a really alarming thing, isn't it? If you think of the rudest swear words, which I'm not going to say, obviously, but you probably all know which word I mean. It refers to a woman's genitals.

And there's, of course, an equivalent word for male genitalia, which is actually pretty mild by comparison. It arises from a time when women's bodies were sort of really viewed, well, I said from a time, I mean, it's still the case, I think, that women's bodies are viewed with just more distaste than male bodies. Yeah, more distaste, but also sort of more exoticised, just more of a taboo around women. And it's interesting, you know, that's a point about bodies, but it translates into the shock value of the words that we use to refer to those bodies. Emma, you've written that you have a certain pride in your knack for colourful and well-timed

profanity. Why do you swear and why do you enjoy it? Yeah, I mean, I've noticed, similar to you, though obviously as a white woman, I only get half of that sort of exoticisation, that particularly guys who will swear in front of me and then apologise and just sort of want you to go, I've heard these things before. But working in male-dominated industries for most of my life, I ended up using swearing kind of as a way

of just putting all that aside and saying, you don't have to pussyfoot around me. And people said, this will change as soon as you have a child. I was writing the book while I was heavily pregnant. And they're like, well, you'll stop swearing as soon as your child comes. But I didn't. And I followed the research that comes out of the States, which says that if you explain your emotional state when you're swearing to your child, they'll learn to use swearing far more judiciously. And this was borne out when my daughter was about two and a half and got very bored in a restaurant where I'd strapped her into a high chair and told her, you know,

we can go and have a run around afterwards, but you've got to stay here while you eat. And about sort of 10 minutes later, I'm still eating, she's finished. And I just suddenly heard her pipe up, mummy, get me out of this effing high chair. I mean, the complete phrase. And I recognised it was my cadence. Exactly. That's the exact way that I would have used it. And I understood her frustration and the urgency with which she wanted to leave. So how did you react to that? Well, compared to a tantrum, compared to what would have probably happened about six months before that, the full back arching, you know, projectile crying tantrum, I preferred it. And to be honest, being able to use your words, it's one of the reasons why, as Rebecca says, there's a serious element to misogyny about swearing, is that if women, and particularly women of colour, are made to feel like there's

this really powerful pot of language that you're not allowed to use without paying a social penalty, how do we express those strong feelings, whether they're positive or negative? And it happened in a restaurant, so I wonder if you felt or noticed a reaction from other people because for some people, obviously, swearing in front of a child or hearing a child swear is offensive and it's not appropriate, whatever the context.

And often it's the parents that are judged. So did you get a reaction from people around you? Oh, completely. And it is something that I'm exquisitely aware of. One of the other bits of research that I've done is on the neuroscience of parenting and of childhood. And I know that there is nothing that's quite guaranteed to shame a person, like that feeling that people are going, oh, don't like their parenting. And so focusing on, you know, the research that I did on that shows if you just focus on your child and forget those other people, then you're going to be much more content and your child's going to be much more content and forget what, you know, the woman in the supermarket is tutting about. That's just good life advice, isn't it?

Rebecca, can swearing be a feminist act? Yeah, I think so. I mean, one way is that you can just swear if you're a woman. You can kind of push back against those taboos, against women swearing. I think it is tricky, though. If you are doing that, it's not always obvious to the people around you that you are engaging in a feminist feminist act rather than just not caring about the feelings of the people who are around you. So I think, you know, it is it is a place where we have to tread carefully. Emma, we've been speaking. I mean, people have mentioned the C word in some of the messages coming in.

You've had an on-off relationship with the term absolutely i grew up in like my late teens were in the early 90s and at that point feminism seemed to be about being able to neck a can of beer and know the offside rule um it's a little bit regressive but i was really proud of the fact that i would call particularly my male friends the c word and now it seemed to have been it seems to have been reclaimed but younger women i think have had so much experience with misogyny online that i don't use it anymore dr emma burn and dr rebecca roach and so many of you got in touch about this topic sylvia says i don't need to swear because my vocabulary is extensive enough to express my feelings as colorfully as i wish swearing is ugly and anna writes in, I love swearing precisely because I am a woman, especially if I am funny and angry. Works every time.

Well, we started the programme talking about having open and honest conversations about women's health. Well, have you ever had to say, I'm sorry, I'm having a hot flush while at work? Well, one woman did just that live on air on Australian national television. Have a listen to this clip from ABC News Breakfast. The latest on the Prime Minister's visit to China. Yes, another pun, Michael. Big chill, but the PM doesn't pander yet. So the bilateral meeting between Australia and China, Anthony Albanese and

Chinese. I'm so sorry. I could keep stumbling through this, but I am having such a perimenopausal right now, live on air. I'm so sorry. Imogen, the point about this is that we need to make it normal to have these kinds of conversations, and I love you for even saying it. Imogen Crump there, she's the editor of the University of Melbourne's research news platform, Pursuit. She's also a regular paper reviewer on ABC's news breakfast program in Australia.

Imogen joined us on the program to give us the full story. Here she is talking to Emma. It was quite a normal morning. We were talking about interest rate rises and the Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese's trip to China, which is a big thawing in relations. And I got to the point where I was talking about those bilateral meetings and I had what can only be described as molten lava that rolls up from your feet to the tip of your head with needle spikes and you can't think and I just could not get the words Xi Jinping out of my mouth and so I, I had to explain what was happening or I would look bad at my job. It's interesting as well, because the other side of it is by saying it,

some people, and I'm seeing this on the messages we're getting from some of our listeners, they also fear they'll look bad at their job. Some people view it as a lose-lose. Yeah, I think for a lot of women it is. It is a catch-22. And I think I was lucky enough to have A, the response of Lisa Miller, who is one of the presenters on the program, who immediately stepped in and said, of course, we should be honest about this. And Michael Rowland as well was very supportive. I think in that moment, you're kind of thinking in bullet points, right? So I was kind of thinking, how do I explain what's happening without telling the truth? If I said I was feeling poorly or, you know, I had to say something. And so it was a very quick decision to kind of say,

well, no, this is the reality of what's happening. And I can't say the words Xi Jinping right now. And Lisa said, this should be normal, not necessarily on national television, but a lot of women, 50% of the population go through it at some point in their lives. How's the reaction been? Genuinely lovely and from all walks of life like very supportive I work at the University of Melbourne and I was in a meeting this morning and one of my very senior male colleagues said to me at the end of the meeting said, oh, I just want to talk about Imogen's appearance on the ABC. It helped me raise a conversation with my wife about her perimenopause. And then that flowed on to a conversation with our two teenage daughters, which I didn't expect to be having for another 30 years or so. But, you know, I'd prefer it wasn't my menopause,

that perimenopause they were talking about. But I think if people are having open and honest conversations about an issue that everyone knows happens, but doesn't necessarily talk about, then that's a good thing. It is. And, you know, a lot of people getting in touch to say as such, but I imagine it is just a bit odd for you that it's you and your body as well, you know, because I've seen this has been written up around the world, you know, the New York Post, the British press. It's quite a thing, I imagine, for you right now. It's very, very strange. But I think as a journalist and a former BBC journalist, I am much more used to talking about the story than being in the story. It does feel very awkward sometimes. And then other times, you know, I walked to the bakery for lunch today and this woman stopped me in the street and said oh i i saw it go out live um and i stood up on the couch and i

clapped and i scared my cats and you know if that's if that's There's so much in that, Imogen. I know, there's so much to pick apart. There's so much. We could do a whole hour on that, you know, the fact that her response was to stand on a sofa and a cat's response and the clap. And the cats. I know, I know.

But it has been really positive. And, you know, I've got really personal stories from women saying, you know, I left my incredibly high powered, high paying job because my corporate wouldn't take into account my perimenopause or other women saying my husband sent me this because he wants me to know that other people are feeling the same way I am. So it's interesting. There is so many stories. If they're coming out and they're making women feel better, then I'm happy, even though it feels weird. That it's your body and you. But you made that decision and I think you did it really well. And even the fact that you slightly, you know, there's an irony, isn't there?

You sort of bumble the word perimenopausal, as you say in that clip, which I think is almost the most perfect way of doing it. Not that you were planning it. Because, you know, I haven't been at that stage yet. But the women in my life I've been closest to, including my own mother, who's explained how it feels to me. You know, I think it is important to try to communicate what it is. And yet at the same time, the reality, not for everyone, but for a lot of women, they can carry on in whatever they're doing at that moment. They just need to have that moment. And it's that nuance that often gets lost and people are very scared to try and deal with, aren't they? Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think for whatever reason, menopause is a much scarier word than puberty or period or, you know, a variety of

other words. You know, I learned something today by talking to one of our university of melbourne endocrinologists who got in touch saying it's actually called the menopausal transition and i was like oh well there's a whole new vernacular i don't know about but you're right there is a nuance there's a nuance of of still being capable but still dealing with something and and wanting for people to meet you there. And you don't have to say it. There's no rule. But if you need to, what then happens shouldn't be.

For instance, there's a message we just got which said, I was in two work meetings. This is from Dorothy who's listening. With men and women and both times I owned up, as she puts it, to having a menopausal hot flush, hoping to break the stigma and be honest. And the silence hit me like a wall. I couldn't believe that none of the women who are a bit older than me, they didn't say a thing. No, don't worry, we've been there.

Or would you like some water? Absolute silence. And, you know, that's going to be a reality for some, no matter, even if you read a message like this from Tilly, I wear my hot flushes like a cape of honour. No shame. It is also about the response that you have. And it's great that on TV you had a good response as well, you know, that you weren't made to feel awkward. But Kerry says here, I had a hot flush in an interview for a support role job with the police. Mid-question, I could feel it and then I couldn't

remember the question. Thankfully, I could still think enough to tell them what was happening. They stopped the interview, gave me a glass of water. And when I was ready to continue, they asked the question again. I asked at the end of the interview if it would go against me and they said no. On the contrary, it displayed integrity and honesty and I got the job. That's great. Imogen, is there anything you feel like you're going to do with this moment now? Do you think you're going to carry on sort of trying to talk about this space? It's not your usual content, as you say.

It's not my usual content at all. I think, well, yes. I mean, I talk about it with my husband, my family, my friends. It's just a broadening of that conversation, right, beyond typically talking to other women, because hopefully next generation or even, you know, younger ones just behind me are going to have a totally different experience of perimenopause and they won't end up in the New York Post for having a hot flush on telly. She's a pioneer of sorts. Imogen Crump speaking to Emma there. And remember, you can join Emma on Monday, please do. She's going to be finding out about how AI pornography, chatbox sexting and sex bots have changed human intimacy.

Join her then. I'll be back on Friday. Hi, I'm Sean Keaveney and I'm back with a new series of Your Place or Mine from BBC Radio 4, the travel show that's going nowhere. I'm a proper hornbird, me, but each show sees another remarkable guest try to persuade me off my sofa and into the big wide world. And it is warm. It is warm, but you just don't wear a lot of clothes and you just find a banana tree that's wafting. Happy days. But will I make it out of the front door?

Lots of smiles from people. I don't know if you're against that. Find out by listening to Your Place or Mine with Sean Keaveney on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.