Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Period Inequality, Dr Katriona O’Sullivan, Electropop duo Let’s Eat Grandma

Episode Date: May 27, 2023

A recent survey of a thousand teenage girls has found that nearly half of them have struggled to access products at school. On Sunday a Period Parade will make its way through London to call for continued support to combat period inequality and shame. We hear from Emily Wilson - the International chief executive of I Rise, a period-equality charity. Dr. Katriona O’Sullivan grew up as one of five children living in dire poverty, surrounded by addiction. She is now an award winning lecturer, whose work explores barrier to education. She tells us about her extraordinary life story, as told in her memoir ‘Poor’ and to explain how she triumphed through sheer determination.As the Online Safety Bill progresses through the House of Lords, the former culture secretary Baroness Morgan of Cotes has tabled an amendment to the Bill calling for a Violence Against Women and Girls Code of Practice. She tells us why she believes a code is desperately needed to specifically address the harms to women and girls. Sales of new petrol and diesel cars in the UK will end by 2030, but women are less likely than men to consider buying an electric vehicle, and the gap seems to be widening. Erin Baker, Editorial Director from AutoTrader and Beth Morley, a mobility and human insights manager from Cenex, discuss. Let’s Eat Grandma are an electro-pop duo composed of best friends Rosa Walton and Jenny Hollingworth. They tell us about their friendship since the age of four and perform ‘Two Ribbons from their latest album.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. This is where you get the highlights from the week so you don't feel like you missed out. It's my absolute pleasure. Coming up on the programme, Dr Katrina O'Sullivan is an award-winning lecturer whose work explores barriers to education. She tells us about growing up in poverty with a mother who loved drugs more than her.

When she did die, what died with her was hope. That seven-year-old girl always hoped that one day that her mum would love her. And so when my mum did die, it was really hard to let go of that. And that's taken time to restore. Baroness Nicky Morgan tells us why she wants an amendment to the online safety bill calling for a violence against women and girls code of practice. Plus, we look at some of the reasons why women are less likely to buy an electric vehicle compared to men. Women travel more journeys overall and they're shorter.

So electric vehicles would be great for women because that lower range is better. But actually those journeys can also be taken by walking and bus. So it may be that a lot of women, when they're making those environmentally friendly choices, are going that one step further and making the choice to get the bus or to walk instead. And live music from electro-pop duo Let's Eat Grandma. So grab a comfy spot and settle in.

Now tomorrow, a period parade will make its way through London. What's a period parade, I hear you ask? Well, the Every Period Counts campaign wants to celebrate the work being done by young activists and organisations across the UK to combat period inequality and shame. They'll be marching to Parliament as they keep calling for change. A recent survey of 1,000 teenage girls has found that nearly half of them have struggled to access products at school.

This is despite the fact that 97% of secondary schools in England have ordered the free products and period product schemes are in place across the four UK nations. Well, I talked to Emily Wilson, the International Chief Executive of iRise, a period equality charity, who gathered this data about what she found. We commissioned the work because we were hearing stories from hundreds of young people across the UK about the challenges they were facing in schools,

including issues accessing the free products that you've talked about being available, but also being banned from using the toilet during class. We even had stories about girls resorting to using their socks when period products weren't available. And like you say, there are period schemes in place. And so we commission this work to try and uncover what's actually happening on the ground so that we can get this working for young people and really make sure that everyone has what they need in school and doesn't have to miss class because of their period. Because this stat that 97% of secondary schools in England have ordered free... that's great, that's great.

So that stat refers to the institutions that have used the scheme across the four years that it's been active. If you look at the number of schools and colleges that are active at any given point, it's significantly lower than that. And then if you look again at how many of those schools are effectively using the scheme and making these products available in school in a shame-free way, that number drops even lower. And that's why we get that stat that half of girls

are still struggling to access products. I think lots of people would have sat up and paid attention at the idea of someone having to use their sock.'s just awful what else are you hearing? So we've heard stories about girls repeatedly asking to use the toilet during class because they're on their period and actually being given a detention and having to sit in in kind of blood-soaked clothes until the lessons finished and we've heard stories of free products in the staff room but paid dispensers in the toilets where children are having to pay a pound for a single pad and so there's a real mismatch between the the really kind of I think really exciting policies that we really welcome

and that we're you know we're fully behind and what's happening on the ground and no one wants this no one wants this to be the the reality in schools. England, the period product scheme has been in place since 2020. I'm just going to give you a little breakdown of what's going on in the countries. And the government says its funding will continue until at least 2024. In Wales, the government committed to ensuring free period products were available to every schoolgirl and college in the country. Scotland made history in 2018 by becoming the first in the world to make period products free to school, college and university students. It sounds like it is being prioritised. Is there more to be done? So I think there was a lot of work prior to the pandemic. And actually, since then,

it's fallen off the agenda quite significantly. So the government has a UK period poverty task force. That task force has not actually met since the start of the pandemic, despite the fact we know that period poverty is on the rise. So before the pandemic, one in 10 girls struggled to access products. That's now up to one in four, according to data from Plan International UK. And though we have these fantastic schemes,

actually the scheme in England hasn't been formally evaluated, despite a commitment to do that when it was introduced. So we feel like there's a moment here to kind of put periods back on the agenda. And actually, we want the government to announce a new action plan around how they're going to make period dignity in schools a reality for everyone. And we want that to include things like looking at what's happening across the UK, evaluating, learning, because actually there's work to be done to make sure that this delivers on the ground for young people. There's a piece on the BBC website today which says some girls are having to ask for period products from staff rather than having them freely available in school toilets.

Do you think that's the right approach? So I know from young people they would much much prefer the products to be available in the toilets for anyone that that needs them and I understand that there are schools have to balance different challenges when they think about how to deliver these schemes and that's why we want the government to look again provide more support and guidance to schools about how to do it in a way that is shame free and that meets the needs of girls and and and the whole school community but I think from what we're hearing pupils would prefer products freely available in toilets we've heard ridiculous stories of people having to make two or three

phone calls to access a product which is then actually locked in a cupboard um you know down a long corridor it's almost like a kind of mission impossible to get that period product in school whereas condoms are much more freely available so I think what the young people are saying is actually we want a tampon to be as available as a condom in our school it shouldn't be mission impossible. I think most women would prefer that to happen in the workplace as well let alone you know when you're a kid trying to navigate yeah you know you're teenagers lots of people getting in touch. Here in Derbyshire in Wales, young people have access to free period products. They can opt for a monthly delivery of pads and tampons or 14 pairs of great quality period knickers.

It's a fantastic scheme, which I hope will continue. In Northern Ireland, the Department of Education funding to provide period products in schools has been cut by 40%. Why is that the case? What's happened there? So the argument there is that uptake has been cut by 40%. Why is that the case, Emily? What's happened there? So the argument there is that uptake has been less than expected, but I think that's, and that's why this data that we've kind of jointly commissioned with a host of charities that care about this issue,

that's why that data is so important because these schemes are underutilised, not because there's not need, not because schools and girls don't want them, but because of these challenges, overcoming the shame, not because schools and girls don't want them, but because of these challenges, overcoming the shame, overcoming the stigma and getting them working. And so one of the things we're asking government to do as part of this new action plan is to reverse that cut and actually look at how we can make sure that these schemes deliver as they were intended. So many people getting in touch with their experiences uh thankfully it's not just

in this country that things are changing fishermen's rest in malawi are doing some great work educating young people importantly both boys and girls about menstruation and providing girls with washable pads that's from jenny um someone else has said my older sister told me my mother only ever said do you know about periods? I had mine by then. We had a school session run by our female PE teacher with very little info. I went to school in Ireland in the 80s. I often used tissue, etc. How times have changed in my house now.

There are pads and tampons in display alongside the loo roll. No shame, two exclamation marks. We're asking listeners, I wondered what your experience was like, Emily. My experience. So I think for me, when I started my period, I felt that weight of shame. And before then, I was I was a real kind of outgoing, adventurous kind of child. And I think when my period started, I became much more reserved. I stopped feeling so comfortable doing sport at school. I remember really withdrawing from physical activities and feeling very self-conscious about my body and I think it's that moment when the shame really kicks in and you kind

of realize oh actually being a woman is is shameful so why something about having a female body is shameful it's the it's the moment well for me it was the moment that that reality hit me and I suppose I've been trying to dismantle that ever since and fight that. And obviously the work I do allows me to kind of turn that on its head and to really celebrate that. But yeah, it was a tough moment for me. And you are continuing to do great work. And let's talk about this parade that's going to be going on in London. Tell us what's going to be happening. So it's going to be first and foremost a celebration and we want anyone who cares about period equality, who wants to put periods back on the agenda to join us. And we're meeting at the South Bank Centre at 2pm and then we're parading through Westminster to 10 Downing Street where we'll be handing in hundreds of stories we've collected from girls across the country and a call to action directly to government. There's going to be, more importantly, there's going to be glitter,

there's going to be colour. I know someone's coming dressed as a giant vagina. Excellent. It's going to be pretty epic. And there are going to be parades across the UK. So there's going to be a sister parade in Cardiff next weekend. But the Westminster one, it's the big one, it's the big moment. And what is it? What's the big one. It's the big moment. And what is it?

What's the big thing holding us back? Shame. Shame. Where does it come from? Who's putting it on us? Well, I think it comes from society. And I think we, but then it starts to come from us. Because like I talked about when I first started my period,

the attitudes that you encounter, you then kind of internalise them. And then you almost inadvertently become part of the shame. And I think it's about that. And that's what the challenge is in schools. You know, teachers, schools want to support girls, but actually the shame and stigma that we've all learnt gets in the way and we have to kind of boldly flip that on its head

if we want to really kind of remove this barrier for girls. And actually, you know, there's research that shows that periods are the biggest cause of absenteeism for girls in the UK. And I think in the 21st century Britain, you know, we don't want periods to be the biggest cause of missing school for girls. And so actually, if we want to change that,

we've got to celebrate it. We've got to flip it on its head. We've got to be bold. And take ownership of it. Yeah. And so that boys don't feel that they can tease, teenage boys don't feel they can tease us about it either you know that yeah we want boys on board i think we want male teachers on board and that's what the parade is about it's about flipping the shame on

its head in a positive parade of glitter and color and and period power vix from cambridge says i work in a primary school we have unisex toilets sadly we have to keep our sanitary products away in a cupboard because otherwise other children open them up and stick them everywhere. On a positive, when one of the girls asks us for sanitary wear, it often opens up the conversation and they talk to us about period pains and leaking, etc. So it becomes very normalised. What would you like to see happen? Well, I think that's a really good example of where we really need to tackle

the shame in school communities and the stigma and we've heard even worse stories of boys actually weeing on the sanitary bins in toilets and so I think it's about shifting attitudes and saying actually you know we want to create a supportive environment for girls and we want to talk about periods which support is normal it's accessible and actually there's not there's very little tolerance for bullying or stigmatising behaviour in schools. We need to talk to the boys as well though, don't we? The boys and the male teachers because actually some of the girls that are talking about being given detentions for asking to go to the toilet on their period, you know, this is male teachers where they're

asking multiple times and it's about education, it's about making boys and men aware and helping them to be supportive. I was talking to Emily Wilson there. Now, despite her professional success and happiness in her marriage and as a loving mother, Dr Katrina O'Sullivan lives with the indelible legacy of her early years. As the middle of five children growing up in dire poverty in Coventry and Birmingham, the odds were low on Katrina making anything of her life. She became a mother at 15 and ended up homeless. Rackety years followed until she moved to her father's native Dublin,

where she hit rock bottom. Today, Katrina is an award-winning lecturer whose work explores barriers to education. She now teaches at Maynooth University's Department of Psychology and she tells her story in Poor, her moving, funny, brave and shocking memoir which charts the story of how she turned her life around. She told Nuala what her childhood was like and why she dedicated the book to herself. I was like all little girls I suppose. I was like all little girls, I suppose. I was vivacious and full of energy and bright, enthusiastic. But unfortunately, I was born into a home where both my parents were heroin addicts.

And so alongside the joyous little girl that I was, was this terrified little thing who was just constantly looking around, afraid of what was going to come next. So when I dedicated the book to myself, I was kind of, because that child never goes. I think we, you know, she's still in there and it's been a lifetime to reach her and recover. And so when I dedicated it to myself, I was dedicating it to that part of me,

the afraid part, the little girl who was lost. And I think that afraid part, we're thrown into it pretty quickly with you because your dad, who's Tony, who's a charismatic character, but by many accounts, you were just six when you had a traumatic experience of finding him after he'd overdosed. Yeah, so that my earliest memories are actually of my parents putting needles into their arms. So that was one of a number of different traumatic incidences. But I suppose my book is about the complexities of addiction. So while my dad was this drug addict, he was always he was also this vivacious, fun man who loved music and introduced me to books and reading and so I loved my dad irrespective of what he did and how he acted I loved him and this particular incident I remember going into the bedroom and our house was full of squalor so it was it was messy the bed was stained with blood and I remember walking in and and discovering my daddy's kind of grey bluey grey line in the bed and there's a needle hanging out of his groin and I thought he was dead and I remember walking in and and discovering my daddy's kind of grey bluey grey line in the

bed and there's a needle hanging out of his groin and I thought he was dead and I don't remember my own voice to be honest but I must have been screaming because we had a lodger at the time and he ran up the stairs and called the ambulance men and that was one of I suppose many traumatic incidences that I lived through as a young girl. Yeah, I mean, from reading the book, and it was a week ago, I can still remember all those aspects that you describe in that room and so harrowing for a little girl. And another image that really stayed with me, and I want to go to it because I think it'll kind of bring to our listeners

what you were going through, was that you went to school, you were this curious girl at school and doing well, and you had teachers that helped you, but you were picked on by other kids, cold, smelly or dirty and things like that, because, of course, you weren't being cared for. And there were teachers that came to help you understand how to keep yourself clean. Yeah. So, you know know like many children who went through what I went through I wet the bed every night and my parents we didn't we weren't taught

how to wash we didn't have toothbrushes or towels in the house we often didn't have sheets on the bed so I was rolling out of bed running into school having not washed or changed my underwear and obviously unfortunately the other kids didn't want to play with me didn't want to sit next to me you know they called me horrible names and had knits and all this kind of thing and when I started school I was really privileged to have a wonderful nursery and reception teacher Miss Arkinson who never ever shamed me never ever made comment or noticed what i was going through but this particular day i remember um she took me into the bathroom her and another assistant

um i was taken into the bathroom and i was convinced i'd done something wrong because that was always what i i was always in trouble so i thought i was in trouble and this lovely teacher i remember crouching down looking me in the eye and saying, it's okay. And she pulled out a packet of underwear. They were Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday knickers. And she taught me how to wash myself. And every morning I used to arrive before everybody else in school and there was a little bag behind the desk which had a lovely fresh towel and a lovely flannel and some soap and a fresh pair of underwear and it was so I mean I was really ashamed in that moment because I knew that they knew that I was this smelly girl because I was well aware of that but I also felt so seen and cared for and I I think

sometimes it's something that we we lose in education is this this ability for teachers to take the moments and see the children we're focused so much on how they can read, how they can write, the maths, that we can lose actually them little moments of care, which were so pivotal in changing my life. Having a person like that see me and care for me was transformative. Yeah, the image in the book that you paint, I have to say, it did stay with me. Your mother, your father, as you talked about, was charismatic.

Your mother, it was a difficult relationship, I think. You know, as we read about her as grown-ups, of course, we can be horrified that the lack of care that was there. And I believe you also felt it difficult to love your mother when she was alive. Both your parents did die young, though. And how do you look at them now?

I have so much compassion and love for my parents. I think sometimes when people have mental health difficulties in the extreme that they have, we can just see that and society just sees that. There is so much more than somebody than just their addiction. So my mom was this hippie woman,acious character she loved to dance she was strong-willed I mean so strong-willed she would fight anybody there's so many complexities to her that I think through writing the book I've been able to actually resolve some of that and actually learn to love her in a different way but obviously as a little girl all you want is your mother to love you like literally all you want is to be loved and I wasn't loved and that's really hard

to live with do you think you weren't loved or just that she wasn't able to show it I think now I know I was loved but at the time I think love is security it's consistency it's food we didn't eat I didn't have food you know so and you're exposed to a world where you know women are held up to this standard of motherhood so I remember quite early on looking at my next door neighbor and looking at her mother and she's making them soup every lunch and giving her a hug and patting on the head and so we have this standard for women in terms of motherhood and my mother definitely didn't live up to that and so I think very very innocently as a child you just see your parent acting in a certain way and if they don't are not consistent and not caring then that means they don't love you now I know I mean I had that conversation with my mother calling her as an

adult and saying to her did you ever love me and she was so open and so honest and she said oh my god I loved you so much I just love drugs more and in that moment while I knew that it was a real pivotal moment for me because she was so honest and so was I with her but it's very yeah it's been a lovely journey actually to actually find my mom again when she died there was a freedom in her being gone and the freedom wasn't necessarily in the fact that she was dead it was the fact that she never ever recovered so she continued to inflict her addiction on us for a long time what i will say though was when she did die what died with her was was hope

like that seven-year-old girl always hoped that one day that her mom would love her. And so when my mom did die, it was really hard to let go of that. And that's taken time to restore. You had a little boy, was a little boy then, John, and had to leave your home. You were homeless, basically. But you have had this just incredible, transformative journey and not without setbacks and stumbles. But you bumped into somebody who was doing an access course at Trinity College Dublin, so the preeminent university. You had two GCSEs at that point and, you know, were having, to all intents and purposes, a very difficult life. But something propelled you to think, I could do that.

What was that, do you think? I think it was really, in Ireland at the time, we were in the Celtic Tiger. And so when there's money in a country, it trickles down to the poor. And there was a lot of investment at that time in trying to offer services and systems that would facilitate poor people to move out of poverty so I was really lucky that occasionally when you grow up like I did sometimes you do realize that you're in a mess and you want help and I was lucky enough when I asked for help there was help in place so I got free counseling from a local community place I I did some adult education. But actually seeing a woman who was pretty much like me

in a place like Trinity College was pivotal. I remember meeting her on O'Connell Street. And at this moment, she says, I'm in Trinity. And honestly, I don't want to swear, but I did swear at her and said, no way, basically. What was the feeling? Was it jealousy or envy or was it shock or disbelief? Well, honestly, to me, people who went to places like Oxford and Cambridge and Trinity, they wore satchels.

They'd gone into railing. And they didn't let people like us in there. Like anybody I knew at that time went into Trinity College to rob bikes. So for me to see someone like me studying law. And I think the one thing we forget when we're thinking about people who've been in poverty like we're really skilled people like I'm resilient I know how to fight for myself I know to advocate for myself I know how to lie if I need to so I know how to read a room and so at that moment STEM skills kicked in and I marched straight over to Trinity College that day knocked on the door of this woman And that was another pivotal moment is that this woman, it was really open to people like me to actually just knock on the door and say, this is me.

Can you help me? And that was this really middle class lady who I didn't know from Adam actually turned to me and was like, aren't you amazing? And again, that was really life changing as well that someone from Trinity College actually thought I, me, poor me was good. So there was lots of transformative moments. You do speak passionately about education and about some of the opportunities that you had or did not have. And but you do feel that the poor shouldn't be limited to these expectations to working in trades. How do you today encourage aspiration this is my job so i i suppose there's a few ways that i do it but obviously providing

all of the opportunities to all children the one thing that was communicated to me in education the expectations were for me to finish school that was the bar that was set for me I never met anybody in university or in a high status job so in my work now some of the things that we do is we introduce young girls like me just to all different universities different courses different jobs and it's not to denigrate or criticize if you want to be a cleaner or a hairdresser or anything else that's great I need my hair done. Everybody else does. But the reality is if we have certain groups that are only, you know, socialized into certain jobs, we're missing out on this amazing skilled area of society. And I'm actually contributing massively now to society.

Not only am I changing policy in Ireland, I'm working in a university. My whole family's future has changed. My children are on the path to university. So empowering people in poverty is not like a charitable gig like we're really skilled we can change the world and we have different experiences and different ways of speaking and different creativities that we can add to society just if we're given the opportunity so but it's really important for me to say that this is not a rags to riches story. Like poverty just doesn't, you just don't leave poverty. Like I have to manage that every day in some ways. Like it's like a shadow sometimes that I still have,

but I'm privileged. I feel privileged to have been able to live through poverty and now share my story and hopefully challenge society to do a little bit better by poor people and then also empower other women like me who may feel that they're not worth something because of their experiences in education or society. Dr. Katrina O'Sullivan speaking to Nuala there.

Still to come on the programme, why women are less likely to buy an electric vehicle than men, and we've got music and chat from the group Let's Eat Grandma. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, just subscribe to The Daily Podcast for free via the Woman's Hour website. Now, as the online safety bill progresses through the House of Lords, the former Culture Secretary, Conservative Peer Baroness Morgan of Coates,

has tabled an amendment to the bill calling for a violence against women and girls code of practice. She said a code is desperately needed to specifically address the harms to women and girls. Following that debate in the Lords, further discussions have been taking place all week on the bill. Baroness Nicky Morgan spoke to Nuala this week and explained why she's calling for this particular amendment. Women and girls are 27 times more likely to be harassed and abused online than men and boys. This is not to say that there are pockets of the internet and social media platforms on which everybody is suffering unwelcome behaviour and attention. But as I say, there's a particular issue affecting women and girls.

We know issues relating to women in public life for example particularly obviously sadly women of colour will you know find that they're even suffering even greater levels of abuse women who say things and suddenly receive 300 rape threats you know following just putting up but girls sadly are more likely to be abused. And recent figures from the Internet Watch Foundation, which look at the most serious forms of child sexual abuse online, will also say that girls are more likely to be abused. So what we're saying is that what the bill does is it provides for codes of practice already in relation to some specific illegal

content, so terrorism and child sexual abuse and other illegal content. And what that means is that Ofcom will have these codes. And if the platforms are following them, complying with them, that's a good defence, actually, for the platforms to say, well, we're doing what you're asking us to do in terms of looking out for and removing this type of content or living up to our terms of service. And we're saying, well, actually, for violence against women and girls, which this government has decided rightly is a national threat, should be reflected in the strategic policing requirement. Why would you not have a vision which asks the platforms and the search engines to look at all of this right from the start when they're designing features, as well as how they moderate content and how they support victims. So with this particular code of practice, if I've understood it correctly, the onus is really on social media firms. And if they don't comply, they could face a 10% fine off their global turnover.

Is that correct? And also for repeat offenders, potentially jail terms. Yeah, absolutely, potentially. And if they don't comply and if Ofcom have told them that they've got to do something, then fines or potential jail sentences could follow.

But actually, that's obviously, that's an extreme end. And also what we want to do, and I'm very grateful to the End Violence Against Women Coalition, to Glitch, to Refuge, to Professor Lorna Wood, who drafted the code and has amazing

support from outside. And actually, what we want to do is just to make, it's about cultural change. And I think that's what the bill is trying to achieve as well, which is, as you say, about putting the responsibility on the platforms. But that cultural change where? Within the social media companies? Yes, yes. I mean, ultimately, what you want is for the boards of these companies to be asking the question of their executives, you know, how are you protecting the most vulnerable? How are you protecting women and girls from the levels of abuse that we have seen, as well as dealing with other illegal content? And I think one of the reasons the government is reluctant on this is because they feel very strongly. And there's a big debate going on in the Lords at the moment, as there was in the House of Commons, which is what is the government's role in relation to content that may not be illegal, but is deeply, deeply harmful?

So, you know, for example, I say the proliferation of rape threats, for example, or cyber stalking or where Refuge will say that we know that domestic abuse victims now have another front in which they can be harassed, which is online, for example, and they have a whole tech hotline to help victims to deal with all of that. And so the government is saying, well, if you're over 18, then actually you should be able to decide what content you see and we'll leave it in your hands but again this is putting the onus back onto onto victims onto women and girls to protect themselves whereas you say what we want is that cultural change amongst the platforms so that when they're designing a feature or rolling something else out or looking at how their service works they're thinking from the start how do i make sure that my users are not harassed in the first place?

We make it very clear that we won't stand for such behaviour. But equally, if someone does need to report something, we make it as easy as possible. And do you think that the social media companies are able to do that? Because it seems to me, speaking, and we've had Georgia Harrison and Emily Atack on Women's Hour who are high profile campaigners for this, that the social media companies always seem to be a couple of steps behind where those that are the perpetrators of this abuse are. I mean, do you feel that in fact they have the technology to be able to do it if the will was there?

Well, I think, yes, I do. And I think your point about if the will is there is very much, you know, very important. At the end of the day, the companies, obviously, they are companies, they are there to turn a profit for their shareholders. And I understand all of that. But, you know, a lot of this is driven by advertising. So one of the other issues we have been talking about in the House of Lordsords is how the algorithms amplify content now that is something uh and i'm no algorithm expert but the way these things work is of course people they're serving up this harmful content so people looking at this this uh particular content all the time and i think that's what people like georgia harris and emily atack would say it's the it's the level of amplification on the social media

platforms and that is absolutely something that the platforms have a choice over how they how they make that work or don't work and those platforms that have said we take violence against women and girls seriously actually can make a virtue of it and it becomes a much better place but that's pretty limited at the moment so much of this is about getting the platforms and search engines to take responsibility for what's on there. And as I say, when they say they have terms of service that say we don't stand for abuse, well live up to that then. And that's what Ofcom will be regulating.

So that is the social media firms you've mentioned or alluded to the government as well. Let me bring some of the words of Lord Parkinson on behalf of the government when you raised it last week, pointing to the changes that have been made in the bill. You're looking for women and girls to be specifically mentioned. He says, consultation with the Victims Commissioner

and the Domestic Abuse Commissioner, the introduction of specific offences to deal with cyber flashing and other sorts of particular harms, which we know disproportionately affect women and girls. We're taking an approach throughout the work of the bill to reflect those harms and to deal with them. Because of that, respectfully, I do not think

we need a specific code of practice for any particular group of people, however large, He also said, The voices of women and girls have been heard very strongly and have influenced the approach that we have taken in the bill. I do not think that the code, my noble friend sets out, is the right way to go about solving this issue. Because listening to that, it sounds like there's not much prospect of this amendment being successful. I mean, do you still hold out hope? Well, I do. Governments, having been at the dispatch box and being a minister,

I know what it's like. Governments have to hold a line. And at the moment, we're having a stage in the Lords where lots of amendments are being discussed and things will be put on the table. As you say, there are lots of discussions then happening, you know, outside the House of Lords Chamber. I think I just say three quick things. One is I welcome the Domestic Abuse Commissioner and Victims Commissioner being consulted,

but we don't have a Victims Commissioner at the moment. So the Domestic Abuse Commissioner supports this code of practice. Secondly, it's great we have specific criminal offences such as cyber flashing, but actually that doesn't really build a holistic positive culture for women and girls online. And I go back to the point that I'm afraid Lord Parkinson couldn't really answer, which is if we think violence against women and girls is a national threat and we're making it a big thing for police to focus on, then why we would not say the same when we know how many people spend time online and particularly our younger generation for whom there's no distinction online and offline now.

It's all one. I will also, let's say this bill, online harms bill, which, of course, has been making its way for such a long time with various amendments or bolt-ons, as we might call it, whatever way it comes through, let's say that it does. With or without this amendment you're discussing. Do you have faith that when it's completed, that it can really tackle online abuse in a substantial way? Or are people expecting really an unachievable panacea? I think it will shift the way the platforms are. They have to take responsibility for the content and they will have to be very clear in their terms of service. And they now have somebody in the form of Ofcom who I have to say, I think, have impressively already stepped up their efforts.

And Melanie Dawes, the chief executive, is taking this very seriously. So the first time they've been regulated. But I think the platform's reach is enormous. And I think that we are the first country to be legislating in this way, which is good for the UK. But of course, these platforms are global. So it's a big step in the right direction. I think ultimately pretty well every parliamentarian wants this bill to go through. But we've got a lot more to come over the years, I think, in terms of regulating these particular companies and sectors. I mentioned social media companies sometimes appearing on the back foot. You're a former education secretary and culture secretary.

Do you think the government was on the back foot in realising exactly the harms that could be really dished out, I suppose, particularly to women and girls when it came to an online world. I think all governments actually have been. I think these companies have become very big, very influential without any regulation. But I'm speaking more about your specific time. Well, so, well, we had already started. So I think when I was education secretary, which is now uh nine started nine years ago um we have begun to see the influence of the online world um but at that point uh i think it was probably still not understood quite how widely influential it was going to going to be um and certainly by the time i became culture secretary jeremy right my predecessor and to ease the maze government have recognized and have published the outline the first consultation um but i. But I think everybody actually has underestimated the significant impact of the online world,

particularly, I think, accelerated by the pandemic and everybody. And in a totally separate vein of work for the House of Lords, I've been looking at online digital fraud, which, again, massively increased because of the fact that we all live our lives so much online and bank online and everything else now so um i think we are all uh catching up and that is one of the the problems with this we will always be catching up and we're debating as well how do we keep the law current this bill when we've got the developments in ai and the metaverse and you know um so that's another thing about how do you keep this relevant that's why i think we'll be legislating on this for quite a long time to come. Baroness Nicky Morgan speaking to Nuala.

Sales of new petrol and diesel cars in the UK are to be banned by 2030. But according to new data, women are less likely than men to consider buying an electric vehicle or EV. And the gender gap seems to be widening. So why is the car industry failing to win women over and what can be done about it? Erin Baker, Editorial Director of online automotive marketplace Autotrader, which carried out the research, and Beth Morley, Mobility and Human Insight Manager at Cenex,

the Centre of Excellence for Low Carbon Vehicle Technology, joined Nuala on Wednesday. Erin started off by trying to explain why women aren't buying electric vehicles. The data doesn't sit comfortably with what we know about female consumers, which is they love sustainable products. But we've conducted at Austrader a huge study of 4,000 women and backed it up with some focus groups. And overwhelmingly, women are not engaging with the conversation around electric cars.

It's not because electric cars aren't reliable or they're still kind of this weird early tech. You know, electric cars, actually, the models like the Renault Zoe, the Nissan Leaf, they've been with us for over a decade now. We're well into used EVs now as well as new. So this technology is tried and tested. Batteries last for a very long time now. You know, they've got warranties for eight years. They're as reliable, if not more reliable than petrol and diesel cars, because there are fewer moving parts. But women aren't interested in them. And I think that's got to come down to the lack of information in the right places for women, which leads to a lack of confidence, which means they're not buying. They're very worried about

range. They're very worried about charging. But our data also shows when we speak to women who have bought electric cars and have taken that leap and with a certain amount of faith, that actually they love their electric cars. 80% of women EV owners would buy an EV again for their next car. And actually very few of them have experienced any of the issues that they were worried about at the beginning.

OK, well, let's go through them because I think what you've mentioned there has been echoed. Here's the one side. This is Susan. I would never buy an electric car. I would buy a hybrid, but I can't afford that either.

Electrics, batteries, etc. can stop working suddenly. I don't want to risk being stranded or no charging point fear. Another, I would invest in an electric vehicle but I live in a terraced house so we've no access to recharging facilities. Perhaps more women

who have the financial wherewithal to buy an electric vehicle live in such houses or in flats. Consequently it may be that more women are disadvantaged by the lack of on-street charging. Here's another. Wendy Pink. That's a nice name. I'm female.

I have an electric car. It's environmentally friendly and it's great to drive. Let me see, Amy. I am ready and eager to buy an electric vehicle. I'm just waiting for the price to come down and increase

in the number of charge points and mileage capacity. So what about that, Erin? Three points that Amy brings up. Yes. So the first cost, that is the biggest barrier for men and women still for uptake, a new electric car is still on average 37% more expensive than its petrol or diesel counterpart. But there are two big caveats that one is that the running costs, once you have got the electric car,

the running costs are so much lower than they are for petrol and diesel. You don't. Well, so, for example, my electric car, I charge it overnight on an off-peak tariff. It's costing me about about £11 to travel 300 miles. Now, that's going to cost you more than £11 at petrol station to travel 300 miles. You don't have a serving cost. You don't have congestion charge. If you're a company car user, you've got very low benefit in kind. So there are all sorts of running costs benefits still. And the second point I'd make is the used EV market. Lots of women, lots of consumers in general, actually, aren't really aware that obviously there's a growing used EV market now as people come to the end of their first three-year

finance deal. And actually used prices are really good at the moment because there's more supply than demand at the moment. But what about trying to change behaviour, Beth? We're hearing about that gender gap that is there. How can, I suppose, cars like that become more attractive? What's missing in the marketing to women? It's not necessarily just the marketing of EVs, really. I think it's the marketing of cars in general. But EVs actually have these potentially real benefits on things like reliability, maintenance, safety, that are just the messages and not the things that marketing and comms in the automotive industry are necessarily interested in focusing on they're interested on when it comes to electric vehicles a lot of the time talking about the technology they're sort of portraying them as that these sort of future complicated things and that not only is

not interesting to women a lot of women but but what we're hearing is that that's also a bit of a turnoff because it adds this fear of complication of it being difficult and of things like um you know running out of charge or not being able to charge you know what i wonder beth when i was looking at this because women are amazing at technology and really into it and using it all the time and planning we know all that um organizationally using it so much is it just that they have so much on that they just don't need one more thing that might possibly go squiffy? I think so. And I think so much of this, you can start to scrape, you know, pick, look at it, and you get into the kind of structural inequality that we have

that is based around the sexes. So you were talking about housing, one of your callers. And, you know, there are more women in social housing and rented housing than men. And up until recently, grants were not available for charge points at social housing. It's great to see that that now is a focus of the government. So hopefully we will see more rental and social housing properties having charge points. But that's been a barrier for a lot of people, like not being able to put a charge point in at home. Things like a lot of the uptake in EVs recently has been around corporate company cars. And when we look at the jobs distribution, it's generally more male dominated industries and roles that tend to get company cars. Women tend to be more in public

sector or public service, so they don't tend to have company cars, therefore less women are using. And then you've got the fact of the lack of representation within the automotive industry of women, and therefore that comes with failures in the marketing, failures in the design, which boils down to the question of women and girls in STEM subjects. So a lot of this, you know, there are...

Which is science, technology, engineering and maths. I've got it. But a lot of this is, you know, there are factors around EVs that we need to address in terms of how we communicate the benefits. But there's also a lot that just boils down to that continual battle. Okay. Let me go back to my listeners because there is a lot here. I thought this was interesting for both of you. Off my immediate family, this is Pam, comprising of four females and four males.

Three females have bought electric cars. None of the males have done so. I've had mine for five years. For round trips of 150 miles or so, it's absolutely fine. Longer journeys take a bit more planning. Are women less able to plan than men? I don't think so. What about that?

How do you understand that, Beth? Yes, if you look at actual travel data, and this relates to the environmental choices element as well, women travel shorter, more shorter journeys, like more journeys overall and they're shorter. So electric vehicles would be great for women because that lower range is better but actually those journeys can also be taken by walking and bus and we know that women walk more and get public transport more so it may

be that a lot of women when they're making those environmentally friendly choices are going like say that one step further and making the choice to get the bus or to walk instead. Whereas we know that men do travel, you know, from travel data tend to travel in longer distance journeys, so therefore may have more concerns. I've also had conversations with men who complained to me that they'll miss the noise. Oh gosh, that's so interesting. That is a missed the revving engine. But let's talk about solutions. One thing that's come up again and again, I think we can agree from our listeners, is the lack of charging points, Erin,

and also the cost. But I mean, can they be sure that they'll be able to find a charging point that works in a well-lit area that feels safe in the coming, I don't know, year? There's a big reality versus perception thing here. So yes, a lot of women before they buy EVs say, well, I'm not willing to look at EVs right now because

there definitely aren't enough public charging points around and I don't have a home charger. We found that, you know, the reality of EV ownership is that only kind of 17, 18% of women over the course of a year of their ownership cited that as an issue. I think, you know, undoubtedly, we don't have enough public charging points at the moment, but they are rapidly growing. But when you look at the usage of electric cars, you know, they don't, most electric cars don't need charging by 80% every day. It's not that kind of barrier to uptake. On the subject of safety, I've been driving electric cars for six years now. And it's never got to the point where I think, oh my gosh, I've got five miles left and it's midnight.

I'm going to have to pull up by a secluded charging point around the back of a petrol station and be worried about my safety. I think that's something that's kind of been talked about a lot and is more perception. There is definitely a thing for women around because women tend to be the main prime, the primary carers, whether that's caring for children or relatives or partners, they worry more about running out of charge with children on a motorway or running out of charge when they've got to get an LD relative to hospital, say. But again, if you speak to EV owners,

women EV owners, they've very rarely, if ever, come across that situation where they're that short of charge. So I think the more women we get test driving EVs so they can see, oh, they're that short of charge so I think the more women we get test driving EVs so they can see oh they're really nippy they're very quiet they're very smooth the more we get buying them and then becoming very passionate advocates for that experience which most women are or we get more women buying it's a bit of a circular you know

scenario and we know that women tend to get most of their car advice and decide which car to buy from friends and family more than men do. Men tend to look at publications and programmes and so on. So the more women that buy EVs and tell their friends and family about it, the more women buy them. That was Erin Baker and Beth Morley. And you emailed in. Sue said, have you seen car adverts? They tell you nothing about the car. Driving through the desert or stopping before you fall backwards off a cliff. How about telling us how the car works and how many charging points there are around the country? That would help me if I was thinking of buying an EV. And Mary Ann got in touch to say, I've been driving an electric car for over two years and I love it.

I find it less stressful to drive than a petrol car. Fabulous acceleration. It turns on a pin, so parking is a dream. stressful to drive than a petrol car. Fabulous acceleration. It turns on a pin, so parking is a dream. It's so peaceful inside the car. Nothing goes wrong with the engine, no oil, gearbox, etc. So regular servicing is way cheaper and more important, no pollution. I live in Sydney and we have far less choice of electric vehicles than the UK. Both our cars have been secondhand, so we've not shelled out a fortune. People panic about running out of charge and not having enough mileage, but in reality, most households do very local short commutes or trips on a daily basis. Now, Let's Eat Grandma are an electro-pop duo composed of best friends Rosa Walton and Jenny Hollingworth.

Friends since they were just four years old. They made their first song at the age of 10 and used to write together in Rosa's family home in Norwich. Two decades of friendship and three albums later, including one which was nominated for an Ivor Novello Award, they're soon to be performing at the Meltdown Festival in London, curated this year by Christine and the Queens. Jenny and Rosa joined me live in the studio on Thursday and started off by explaining where the band name comes from.

We named the band when we were 13. We were always quite a unique band in some ways you could say. We were always doing, it was kind of like just a fun project for us and we kind of just thought what would be a fun name. So one of our friends just came up with this punctuation joke. We were brainstorming at my birthday party, like, what would be a good band name? We'd been, like, coming up with some really awful ones before that. So I was like, what about Let's Eat Grandma? A lot of people think it is a good name.

What does Grandma think of it? I think the grandmas like to be involved, be included. I love that you were only 13 when you came up with the name because your origin story is delightful you met at kindergarten yeah we met at school actually yeah it was like yeah you were four

we were four years old and yeah Rose always says that I was I don't actually remember this because it's so long ago that I was drawing a picture on the table yeah snail and I was like, she's an artist. Maybe we'll be in a band one day.

Thinking ahead. Here we are. So the intention was set. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, the band sort of was initially just another one of our little creative projects that's kind of blown out of proportion. And we never really intended to end up doing music as a career exactly.

It just kind of ended up happening from one of the projects we did together. How do you divvy up the songwriting in the production? And I suppose because you've grown up together, you've learned the instruments and all the rest of it and figured it out between the two of you over the last 20 years. It really depends on the album. At first we were writing very much together and more recently we've done more stuff separately and then brought it to each other and it's mixed up depending on what the project is really.

I think we should hear the two of you perform something. Tell me what we're going to hear. We're going to hear Two Ribbons. Tell me about Two Ribbons before we hear it. What's it about? It's the title track off our most recent album and it's about our friendship when we're going through a difficult time in our relationship

and also about the loss of my boyfriend a few years ago. So it's kind of a combo of those two things. that was um your boyfriend billy who died of cancer yeah and you also lost one of your collaborators as well sophie yeah how did this impact you as friends as musicians and your music that just the grief that you were experiencing yeah it was definitely a massively difficult time. Even now I feel a bit emotional talking about it, but, yeah, it had a huge impact on our relationship. It caused a lot of strain because of what was going on, and I think making this recent album

was kind of a healing process for both of us, so it was quite a different record in that sense. It was kind of just about us and our friendship and our lives rather than any real aspirations outside of that, really. So do you feel different because of the experience and the process of writing? Yeah, definitely. I think that making this record was really healing for us

and we kind of wrote songs to each other on the record to kind of talk about the different experiences we're going through. Rosa Walton and Jenny Hollingworth. Well, that's all from me today. Do join Nula on Monday, where we have a special bank holiday programme all about the lies we tell in our personal lives.

From the little white lies to the catastrophic whoppers, we find out the impact lies can have on friendships, families and relationships. Get ready for some jaw-dropping revelations. Do enjoy the rest of your long weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been

doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.