Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Pregnancy discrimination, Girls State and Carly Pearce

Episode Date: April 6, 2024

An employment tribunal has ruled that describing an expectant mother as 'emotional' at work was discrimination. Described as a David and Goliath case, Nicola Hinds, who had been an account manager at Mitie, a FTSE 250 company, represented herself. The judge upheld her claims of pregnancy discrimination and constructive dismissal saying she was 'inexcusably' ignored by her boss and portrayed as 'hormonal'. She is now in line to receive compensation.A new documentary film, Girls State, spotlights the girls hoping they will become the first female President of the United States. It follows a real-life mock government programme attended by teenage girls in Missouri. The American Legion, who run the programmes, hold separate programmes for boys and girls in all fifty states in the US. Emma is joined by the film-maker Amanda McBain and Emily Worthmore, one of the girls who stands for Governor, the highest position in the mock government.It’s almost the end of Ramadan 2024 – the month of fasting observed by Muslims all over the world. But what’s it like to be a modern woman, potentially on your period, and still going through Ramadan? We hear from Mehreen Baig from the podcast Not Even Water and Hodo Ibrahim, co-host of The Oversharers podcast, on the challenges and advantages of being a Muslim woman in Ramadan.A new play at the Hampstead Theatre – The Divine Mrs S - explores the life of Sarah Siddons, who was the first truly respected female actor in theatre, achieving a huge level of celebrity at the end of the 18th century. April De Angelis’ backstage comedy explores the origins of celebrity culture and portrays Siddons, played by Rachael Stirling, as a pioneer in command of her own image and craft. We hear from April and Rachael about what inspired them to bring Siddons back to life.And we have music and chat with one of Country Music’s biggest female stars, Carly Pearce, who went from working at Dollywood aged 16 to becoming a Grammy and three-time Country Music Association winner.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. I'll be bringing you all of the best bits from the week just gone. In a moment, we'll hear from Nicola Hines about successfully representing herself at an employment tribunal. The judge upheld her claims of pregnancy discrimination and constructive dismissal, saying she was inexcusably ignored by her boss and portrayed as hormonal. We'll hear about the life of Sarah Siddons, a.k.a. the Queen of Drury Lane.

She was the first truly respected female actor in theatre at the end of the 18th century, but she was controlled by the men in her life, with her brother choosing her roles and her husband pocketing her fees. The tragedy for me is the fact that she has no agency and every night I feel cross when I'm being bullied by my brother or he just comes in and says, you're off to Ireland touring for four months.

And she says, but my daughter's ill. This was true. My daughter's ill. I don't want to go away. And he says, I'm sorry, your husband signed the contract. We'll discuss a new documentary film that spotlights the girls hoping to become the first female presidents of the United States. And we have music and chat from Nashville superstar Carly Pearce. But first, an employment tribunal has ruled that describing an expectant mother as emotional at work was discrimination. Seen as a David and Goliath case, Nicola Hines was a senior manager at Mighty, a facilities management company in the

FTSE 250, which provides services such as security for many national organisations, including the BBC. Nicola represented herself, and the judge upheld her claims of pregnancy discrimination and constructive dismissal, saying she was inexcusably ignored by her boss and portrayed as hormonal. She is now in line to receive compensation. In her first broadcast interview, Nicola spoke to Emma on Thursday and she told her how it felt to represent herself. I felt like the little person and I was up against somebody very mighty in every sense of the word.

But I felt I needed to take this challenge on to not only rectify the sort of the pain that I'd felt whilst employed by Mighty, but to ensure that nobody who does work for Mighty or thinks about working for Mighty goes through the same sort of challenges that I did. I should say at this point, we did approach Mighty for a statement, but a response that came back just said we don't comment on individual legal cases,

so won't be commenting on this. But you have this ruling now. And I suppose before we come to what that process was like and going through the tribunal and doing it on your own, what led up to it? Can you take us back to that point what was the the change of the way you were treated yeah it i mean it seems like a lifetime ago now because this actually started in 2020 um i became pregnant with what i describe as my miracle second child after 12 years of not being able to add to the family and up until that point everything was going great my career path was you know exactly where I wanted it to be I'd worked really really hard to get to the position that I was in unfortunately attitude sort of shifted once I'd made that pregnancy announcement

we were in the middle of the pandemic there was obviously a lot of other factors um sort of happening in the outside world. Everything just felt like it was going in the wrong direction from that announcement. There was pay discrepancies, there was reluctance to address any of my concerns, or if there were being addressed, I wasn't seeing the output of that, and things just seemed to escalate. It got to a point where my workload became so huge um I didn't know how to

deal with the with the work that was coming in I you know I decided to brave and speak up um and speak to my line managers um about trying to arrange some support so that I could focus on a handover process going into maternity leave. Unfortunately nothing seemed to change and I had panic attacks sort of quite late on into my pregnancy which did affect my own well-being and the health and well-being of my baby. My baby did actually stop growing for a period of time. It coincided with the two weeks that I was suffering quite severely with panic attacks. So a decision was made by my consultant, you know, that I should sort of cease working and go on maternity leave early. Throughout my maternity leave, I felt ignored. I didn't feel like there was any support there my keeping in touch days

were were sort of an even use no ornament to both me and the business um and the return to work was it it made me feel like a huge inconvenience um just before we get to that point when we talk about and I mentioned some words hormonal emotional um how are those words used uh by by those around you when you were pregnant before we come to to returning to work? It's a shame that that is the way that uh the situation was viewed um you know yes I was pregnant there's no denying that but the hormones or the emotional uh feelings that I was going through at the time was not because I was a pregnant woman. It's because I was an exhausted employee. I was working longer hours than I'd ever worked before. I was working on a project that I'd had little

experience in doing prior to picking this project up, my work environment had changed. And it wasn't the pregnancy that had changed it. It was the environment itself. So to be labelled as hormonal and it must be because she's pregnant is hurtful. And that was a manager who said that? It was, yes. And at the time, were you able to say anything back? You know, that would be a very difficult situation in any case.

But, you know, when you are also pregnant and you're going through trying to cope with a job that's changing around you and you're doing a lot more work, it's possibly even harder. And, you know, very confusing, perhaps, how to respond. Yeah, to some degree, I'd lost my voice. You know, prior, you know, prior to this, I would have said that I was a confident individual, you know, I rooted for the underdogs, you know, I'd speak up if I thought something, you know, wasn't quite right. But unfortunately, I completely lost the confidence to speak out about how it made me feel and when I actually did the result was I was labeled as hormonal because of my pregnancy it's uh it's very evocative for a lot of people that um you know the the idea of that being used against you in that way

and you you started to say there because I know you also um encouraged if I could use that word I mean it's probably the wrong word to change role as well um is that and this was also going on yeah so shortly after announcing my pregnancy I mean I'd served 10 years in the operational side of the business and shortly after announcing my pregnancy I was heavily encouraged somewhat pursued to undertake a more administrative role and there were comments used that it would suit me better now my circumstances have changed so there was some stereotypical sort of comments being made by my line managers and those that were were to, you know, sort of allegedly support me within my career path.

Again, a situation many of those listening may be able to identify with. You started to talk about coming back to work and keeping in touch days and how that felt. Take us to that place and what then led to an employment tribunal. How did you realise or what was it that that made you think I need to do something yeah so it's not obvious at the time you know some sometimes you look back and with hindsight you think do you know what that wasn't okay but at the time you don't realize so it was a long sequence of events you know stemming back from my pregnancy announcement when I was on maternity leave

there was very little to no contact with with my ex-employer with my lie manager I felt completely ignored I was I was nervous to return to work I was I was nervous as to whether I still had a position in in the company because they certainly didn't give me that confidence whilst I was on maternity leave and once I had returned to work the way that my return to work was handled made me feel like nothing had changed or no lessons had been learned from how I ended up departing onto maternity maternity leave early so I needed to take some extra time so I did end up taking some sick leave and it was during that period of sick leave that there were further issues um that I encountered with my uh pay and contractual terms and conditions that had somehow been changed along along the way um and I just felt that I couldn't no longer work for a company that was continuously

making me feel like I was an inconvenience. It felt like they wasn't supporting me, it felt like they was trying their hardest to change everything around me to make me feel uncomfortable. Eventually, I constructively resigned. And that's how the beginning of the employment tribunal process started. And I mean, all the while, we should say, you know, you have an older child and you've got your very new baby. Well, this is going on still. Just just do think that is relevant. You know, it's not relevant. You're pregnant when you're trying to do a harder job but it is relevant to the you know the situation you were in at this time and you represented yourself I did yes um it was a tough decision it really really was um there are obviously solicitors out there that can support you

but I actually came across Pregnant and Screwed and I read some of the stories from the ladies that had had support through Pregnant and Screwed before and I found myself a mentor through Pregnant and Screwed and I was given some confidence back from a group of women that had been in a similar situation to me and I thought you know what let's get that old Nicola back, the one that's got the voice, the one that sticks up for the underdogs, the one that says no when things are not right. And I thought, you know what, I'm going to do this myself

because I need to do it for me. I want to be the one that looks them in the eyes across the courtroom to say, you know, this isn't right. What you've done is wrong. And I want you to change. I want you to take this and learn from it. You mentioned Pregnant and Screwed there. It's the campaign group. We've had them on the programme several times, set up by Jolie Brearley, but for those who aren't sure what that is, what a thing to do. How did it feel doing it? It wasn't an easy task, by all means. As much as I want to encourage every woman out there going

through a similar situation to give them, you know, the confidence, the hope, the empowerment to, you know, to take on their ex-employer if they've got, you know, the confidence to do that. But it's not an easy task. It has its ups and downs. It's a very long process. And there were times where I felt like giving up. It felt impossible. It felt like the whole system was against me.

But I persevered, I rid the storm storm and I got the result that I was hoping for what did that feel like when you heard the result um it was bittersweet there was a lot of sadness in that there was no you know sort of moments of you know fist punching in the air you know there was no sort of jumping up and down in celebration I felt sad that I'd had to go through this process and it had taken such a long time um just to get acknowledgement that what I'd um suffered was was what I'd suffered it was it was to get that endorsement really that what I experienced wasn't okay and I'm still processing it I'm still processing what I've achieved um but I really want to use that achievement and and turn it into something

positive now have you been okay in yourself have you have you also been able to to if you don't mind me asking make ends meet you know these are difficult times to to not have your usual work support structure pay pay packet. Yes, you may be, you are entitled for some form of compensation now, but it doesn't reflect perhaps what's the process that you've been through. Yeah, there's been some difficult times from a mental health point of view. You know, I've probably hit the depths of mental health and with a lot of support, I've, you know, I've got myself back out of that pit of

despair. In terms of financial you know yes it's been a struggle but I've got a lot of family and friends that have supported me up until this point and you know sort of without them I may never have made it this far so massive thank you and appreciation to that circle of family and friends is there anything you want to add or say at this point because you know there will be those listening thinking we've got the laws we've got the protections in place and yet these things happen we know that they happen we know if we broadly call it maternity discrimination um and and we know that it's not enough to say it sometimes. You have to go and take action.

Is there anything you wanted to add at this point? Yeah, I mean, I'd absolutely love all employers to sit back and question themselves. You know, do we have the right policies? Do we have the right people leading our people? Because unfortunately, sometimes these companies do on paper have the best policies in black and white but if they're not being put into practice then you know that they're always going to fail and I really want employers to take this seriously we're not just employees with numbers through payroll you know we give our life to our careers we sacrifice a lot to provide a service to them and their clients.

And all we ask for in return is a bit of respect, a bit of sympathy and a bit of empathy, but also for them to stick to the letter of the law. Emma speaking to Nicola Hines there. Now to a new documentary film that spotlights the girls hoping to become the first female president of the United States. Since the office of president was established in 1789, no woman has held the position. Girls State follows a real-life mock government program attended by teenage girls in Missouri. During the week-long residential, they elect their own leaders, including a governor, Supreme Court justices and an attorney general. The American Legion, who run the programmes,

holds separate programmes for boys and girls in all 50 states in the US. Previously, a film following the boys' programme won several awards and the film following the girls launched on Apple TV this week. Emma spoke to 19-year-old Emily Worthmore, one of the girls who stands for governor, the highest position in the mock government, and to the filmmaker Amanda McBain, who's behind both films. So what is the mock government programme trying to do? The core value, I think, behind the programme was this idea of civil discourse. What happens if we gather a bunch of 17-year-olds, that's the age of the attendees, to come together and talk politics face-to-face with the idea that people will have different politics?

And what will happen when they do come together face-to-face and have these conversations? That was something that was very interesting to my husband and I, our co-directors. We started this project with Boys State back in 2017 after Trump's election and recognizing how divided America was and wondering what what could happen in these spaces. In the boys space, was it very divided? Is that what you found at that age? We shot that film in Texas, so a very conservative state. And what was so interesting is we followed a number of kids through the week, two of whom were fairly progressive. And to watch their trajectory and transformation through the week was sort of one of the great delights of nonfiction. And unexpected things happen. So there was more coming together than I think we had previously thought.

Maybe to, I think we thought there was going to be more of a Lord of the Flies situation than it actually ended up being. And what about the girls then? You know, a sort of sibling film of this. How did it differ? A slightly different time, slightly different moments, and obviously looking at girls instead of boys. That's right. It's a different time. It's four years on. And I think to some degree, our country's even more polarized. So we're also dealing with the emotional legacy of COVID. And

there's a quality to gathering that was beautiful. Actually, I think people were ready to come together. I will also say, Jessie and I have two teenage daughters. So I think there was something more personal in making this film. This is your partner in life and in work. Yeah. So girls seemed to be looking for ways to connect, looking for ways to find common ground, and looking for ways to get things done. That's also partly how the boys program was set up very much into two camps. It was sort of tribal warfare from the get-go. There was two parties that were built and that dynamic was slower to

get started at Girls State. For good and for bad, and there was some frustration, girls very much wanted to talk politics immediately. That's why they'd come to the session. But they had a number of days to get to know one another first. Let me bring in someone who went on this particular, was part of this cohort, Emily. Why did you want to go along to this programme? I had known about Girl State since my sophomore year of high school because it's the summer after your junior year. And so my counsellor knew I was into politics.

They talked about it a lot. And she had told me, don't plan anything for this week of your junior year summer summer because i have this program i think is perfect for you and overall it just seemed like a really good opportunity to get to start talking more politics and get to experience that little mock politics setting that was so exciting to me i did talk about your ambition the idea of becoming the first woman to run uh the united states uh a rock star and a broadcast journalist and you took you say you could do all three how are you doing with them i'm still on track for all three i believe i'm in a college band right now um called

bethany lane and we play like indie music i'm going to school for broadcast right now and the election is 16 years away so overall we're on track for all three. So keep going there. So you've scheduled when the election is for you from your point of view? Yes. Why? I've had that down since fourth grade.

I think I looked at the first year possible to run. I'll be 36 in 2040. And the minimum age here is 35. So since fourth grade, I was like, I want to do it and I want to do it young. Because I also think that that really sets you apart from a lot of the candidates that we see now being so old, all men, like front runners are mostly men. And I think that that would be a nice stand apart as well, just being young. You do throw your hat in the ring in girls state. I mean, I don't want to ruin the film.

You obviously know what happens, but it's pretty tough. You also struggle with something a lot of people struggle with, is you're not sure how you feel about, and you tell me now how you feel about it now, public speaking. It's not everybody's favorite thing, to say the least. Yes. Public speaking was my biggest fear at Girls State, just because writing a speech and having a script it feels really forced to me I love doing interviews like this and I love maybe panel discussions and things like that I think I've gotten a lot better and more confident in the past couple years but my body just gets so shaky whenever it's time to give a big speech and so I think I had wound myself up so much around that and that was definitely one of the most nerve-wracking parts

of the week for me. You also have to think, which is, you know, a part of being in politics or also just being in the world. In the film, it shows you thinking quite carefully about whether you will mention that you're a Christian and what your political views are. I suppose for the benefit of our audience, probably right of centre would be the way to describe it. And you do share, you do go there. How was that for you? I think it was the first time that I had that opportunity to share in a setting where it felt comfortable to share. Maybe not comfortable, but more acceptable since politics is something that I had. I'd like talking about running for president and all this, but I didn't dig into

the politics since it was something that we're almost conditioned not to talk about since, you know, don't upset people at the dinner table with Thanksgiving or all that kind of thing. So I was really personally nervous to talk about it at school. I go to a mostly progressive high school at the time, but girls state was that turning point for me where I'm like, you know what, I'm going to be the one to bring it up. And a lot of these people I might not see again. So if they, you know, hate me'm going to be the one to bring it up. And a lot of these people I might not see again. So if they, you know, hate me because of it, that's one thing, I guess.

But I didn't want people to hate me. I wanted them to listen. And I wanted to listen to them. And I think that mission was overall accomplished. So I'm happy with the way it worked out. Amanda, you do see people coming together who have different views, girls coming together with different views in this. And I wonder, do you feel you saw some people, some women and young girls' political views change? We did not see people's views change. It's a week long. What I'd say is that there's exposure to people who are different from them.

And that kind of humanising of the other side seems to me sort of the recipe for a kind of change, right? For us, we're from San Francisco, California. Our political views are different than Emily's, but I think meeting her, finding all the ways that we are similar and talking about those ways that we're similar. We do a lot of talking about how different we are and there's value to that. But I think at times we need to also remember some of the things we have in common. So Emily and I have common cause on representation of women and the halls of power in our government. We have common cause and how much we care for our country. She has a big heart and I like to think I have a pretty good size heart

too. So there are a lot of things that we share. Amanda McBain and Emily Worthmore speaking with Emma there and Girl State is available on Apple TV now. Still to come on the programme, music and chat from the Nashville superstar Carly Pearce. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, just subscribe to the daily podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Now, what's it like being a woman during Ramadan? Ramadan, of course, is the month-long period of fasting observed by Muslims all over the world. It happens once a year, and we're currently just three days away from Eid, the end of this Ramadan.

It's estimated that there are around 1.9 billion people around the world who are followers of Islam, which means roughly 800 million women. So what happens when you get your period during the month of fasting? Well, I spoke to the former teacher, Maireen Baig, and podcast host, Hawtha Ibrahim, to talk about just this. I started by asking Maireen why she decided to make her Ramadan podcast, Not Even Water. When I left teaching and I joined TV, I faced so much scrutiny. And it was a real shock because all of a sudden people were treating me like a spokesperson for every Muslim in the world and it was I had to do a lot of research because I'd get invited to places and people would ask me questions and over the last few years I feel like

the climate has really changed and there's even more scrutiny on Islam on Muslim women and people are too afraid to talk about religion and faith. And whether that's someone, if you're someone of faith, and you're, it's kind of a really awkward topic sometimes. Or if you're somebody who has questions, you've got to, I was born and brought up in London, so it was very, very diverse. But there are communities around the UK who've never even met a Muslim. And the only things they get to hear about Muslims are things they see on the news and I feel like Not Even Water is a really fun and light way to talk about Islam, to talk about faith and how young British Muslims are navigating their faith with their everyday lives but in a really honest and judgment-free way. So it's a great platform for British Muslims to share their

stories but it's also a great place for people to learn more about the religion. Well it's a great platform for British Muslims to share their stories, but it's also a great place for people to learn more about the religion. Well, it is a great, joyful episode that you're here to talk about, which is episode three of the third series. And it starts off with a really important question about Ramadan and being on your period. Why did you want to discuss this? I often think about if I was a young woman listening to this podcast, what kind of conversations would benefit me? Would it kind of help me to listen to and get some answers from? It's also to normalize these conversations. And it's also, I just feel like they're valid questions that even people who aren't Muslim might have. But how do you really ask someone and go up to a Muslim and say, hey, Muslim colleague, just wondering about periods. Let's have a chat. So when it's Ramadan, you wouldn't. It'd be very, very difficult.

It would be a very awkward water cooler conversation to be having. Hotha, what are the rules? So in terms of the rules, I would say for Ramadan, obviously, if a woman is on her period, she is not obliged to fast. That's obviously one of the mercies that we have from God, essentially, because he obviously knows what we go through with our bodies. You already know what periods are like, the PMS, the pain, the trauma, just the constant emotions that go up and down. Yeah, you need nutrients. So obviously, I think that's one of the great mercies that we have to not be able to fast. And obviously, we will need to repay those days. But again, it's not something that you have to do within a month.

You can do that within the full lunar cycle. So just before the next Ramadan in the year. So you make up the days. What I particularly enjoyed was at the top of this particular podcast where Maureen, you said you feel really guilty. And Hawthorne, you don't feel any guilt at all. There was such outrage at me saying I feel guilty. I was like, guys, I didn't mean like there's this great shame.

Like, do you know, all the time when I don't pray, I feel really sad that I'm not actually praying and I feel really left out. And I think somebody in the comment section read something at a beauty spree and they were like, guys, I think she means she feels like FOMO, like fear of missing out. And I'm like, it's true.

I meant I feel like oh god I should be doing this I really want to be doing this and I'm sad that I'm not going to be able to fast with everybody and it's it was so taken out of context I thought it was hilarious but it always is if you say it like so just just because it is woman's hour and we've got a huge audience listening to us what are you what are you missing out on I think what she means is and I experienced this the first week of Ramadan because I was on my period I think Ramadan is such a special month and I think it's so spiritually enriching that you feel like oh my god I want to be able to pray I want to be able to do the things that I need to do compared to everyone else that's fasting and

praying at the time but I think one thing that Maharin summed up quite well is just because you're on your period and you're not physically doing the act of physical prayer you can still make supplication you can still do the other things that enrich your soul and you kind of still get that spiritual feeling as well but I did feel this way the first week of Ramadan when everyone in my household was fasting and I was just sitting there like yeah what do we do I'm really missing out on the spiritual aspect but also you're because you're in a routine and if you have been you've been fasting for like a couple of weeks and you're really in it and you're used to like every night I'm doing this intense prayer and every like sunrise I'm

doing this prayer and I'm and then suddenly you stop and you're like I don't have to wake up now it feels strange it does feel a little bit weird it's a little bit like I should be doing it even though you know you know you don't have to you know you can rest and relax and all of that for me personally it's a little bit like I lose my bearings a little bit yeah that also describes your level of faith as well which is really inspiring because often faith goes up and down it's not something that's quite linear. And to be feeling that way constantly and having like FOMO or guilt or unbalancedness, I feel like that's a good thing because I feel like you're spiritually there. I don't know about you guys, but I grew up in a South Asian family and a Punjabi family.

I'm a bit older than you, quite a bit older. And talking about periods was just a big no-no culturally. So you got the religion on one side, but culturally, it was just a big no-no culturally so you got the religion on one side but culturally I it was just not something that's talked about even now I think the conversation is only just starting to happen with the younger generation do you feel like you are really pushing the agenda as young muslim women I remember a scenario just starting out my fasting I think I was like 16 and I think one of my uncles came back from home to visit us and I was casually eating in the kitchen he was like very shocked by it no I wouldn't say appalled but he was just like please like don't eat in front of us don't eat in the kitchen sort

of thing like I just felt shameful to think oh my god like maybe I shouldn't be eating in the comfort of my home being on your period isn't an impurity. Like, it's not shameful. It's a natural thing. People have it. We're all grown-ups. We've had these discussions. And I just think, yeah, it's a taboo subject that people... It's strange to say that it's a taboo subject

because it's something so normal for women. But I think in spaces of, like, culture, especially around men in our societies, I feel like it's something that it's hard for them to grasp it's like an icky thing that they don't want to discuss I feel like periods and just women's I mean anything to do with women's health and women's sexuality and I think they are kind of taboo or not talked about even outside of the South Asian community and you're right 100% it probably is a bit like more within the South Asian community

but so when I was fasting a couple of weeks ago I saw a colleague and he's not South Asian and he said oh you're not fasting then and I said no I'm on my period and maybe I do subconsciously do it on purpose like I do say it out loud on purpose maybe you're right maybe now I'm thinking about it I think I do I kind of enjoy not making people uncomfortable, but I quite like to push the boundaries in that way. I'm like, yeah, my period, you shouldn't really ask them why they're not fasting, darling. And you could see he was visibly quite uncomfortable by it. But also, yeah, in my house, we never grew up talking about periods or sex. I'm 34. We still don't. And I think when you say that people are like, again, people re-jump to oh her

house must be so strict my mum thinks armpit is a rude word I said armpit the other day she was like don't say that they're really strange I mean and me and my sister really do take the mix and sometimes if we like we'll be around the house and we'll just be like vagina or something and my mum's like stop but it's hilarious it's really really funny and my dad's in on it and it's not because we live in some insanely back would kind of how my mum just feels, stop. But it's hilarious. It's really, really funny. And my dad's in on it. And it's not because we live in some insanely back, how my mum just feels, because she is from that generation where they really didn't talk about any of that stuff.

So yeah, I learned about periods and all of that from Judy Blume books growing up. And I'm really glad that now people can listen to the podcast and learn a bit more from that. That was Maureen Baig and Hawthorne Ibrahim and all three series of Not Even Water are available to listen to now on BBC Sounds. Now let me tell you about a new play at the Hampstead Theatre in London, The Divine Mrs S. It explores the life of Sarah Siddons aka

the Queen of Drury Lane. She was the first truly respected female actor in theatre, achieving a huge level of celebrity at the end of the 18th century. She was also subject to direction from the men in her life. Her brother, who chose her roles, and her husband, who signed her contracts and collected her fees. She was known for her careful control of her public image and the play, written as a backstage comedy, also explores the origins of celebrity culture. Well, Emma spoke to the writer, April DeAngelis,

and the lead actress, Rachel Sterling. But first, here's a flavour of the play. It's nonsense. There's nothing you can tell me about acting. I'm John Philip Kimball. I need a writer. I need Joanna Bailey. No one liked her play.

They liked it well enough till you turned them against it. The thing is, brother, I am not 25 anymore. No, you're not. I have grown, but my parts have not. I haven't got the faintest idea what you're talking about. What is inside me needs to be channelled into the roles I play. This isn't going to get anatomical, is it? Give me what I want, brother, or face the consequences.

Oh, that sounds good. Rachel Stirling explains the significance of this particular scene. She was dealing with domestic management. She was dealing with the fact she wasn't allowed to own anything, much less her own earnings. She wasn't allowed to control anything within her own personal life. She was a vassal. But within those constraints,

she did manage to navigate her public image through the use of portraiture. That's why she's sort of vaguely well-known, not as well-known as I think she ought to be, but courtesy of the images that were painted of her by Thomas Lawrence, Joshua Reynolds, Gainsborough. So she was very early on understanding the importance of image. She sort of made the theatre respectable as well. So she was trying to be a presentable face of womanhood while also battling the same battles we all battle. Yes, and in a very different time and many won't have heard of her. April,

why did you go towards her story? What did you want to say about her and what should we know? Well, she was the first great celebrity actress. I mean, in her day, she was, you know, you'd find her face on kind of cups and plates and all these portraits. She was so well known. And there was a thing called the Siddons effect. You know, she had this incredible impact on audiences because she was, well, she kind of invented a new kind of acting was one thing. She was much more contemporary, but she also kind of had powerful emotional impact on her, on the women in the audience who saw her playing these mothers. She was very famous for kind of playing distressed mothers,

mothers who had their children taken away from her. And in that particular age where women were legally dead, you know, they had no rights over their body, their property or their children, it was a kind of catharsis for the audience and it had this huge kind of impact. People would faint, women would be kind of, you know, crying. Gosh.

Yeah, it was very powerful um and i just thought her story was sort of fascinating that in one sense she was kind of crafting as rachel said this kind of very public kind of figure so the actors could be respectable that she was a mother and she wasn't ambitious and she didn't want money on the other side you know if if occasionally she would be sort of trolled because people would say say, well, actually, she's, she slipped up, she is venal, she does, she is ambitious. Because inevitably, you know, you cannot do everything as a woman like you're expected to be. Did you have any, when you were doing your research, I know you were trawling through the archives, looking at the British Library. Did you find any evidence of how she really felt

versus the public image that she put out? It's really hard because I think she was so constrained by her kind of persona that she was building that actually there's very little. She did write a little bit about her feelings about her performance of Lady Macbeth and they found these notes in a library, maybe 100 years ago or something.

And that's her original voice. But there's nothing apart from this sort of slither of writing that's in her original voice. Heaven forfend she'd be ambitious, right? I mean, what are we coming to? We still don't, I think, like them, do we, Rachel? She played Hamlet. She was allowed to do it in Smock Alley while her brother did it in London.

But she played Hamlet famously in a dress. And I do it hitched up, but she did all the sword fighting. She did it. She was a game bird, wasn't she? Yes. And actually, our play is part funny and part tragedy because of her circumstances. You can't, April has brilliantly framed this rather tragic character, actually, in a kind of chaotic, brilliant backstage part farce situation. Why is she tragic? Because there are, I understand, lots of laughs in here,

but what's the tragedy for you? The tragedy for me is the fact that she has no agency. And every night I feel cross when I'm being bullied by my brother or he just comes in and says, you're off to Ireland touring for four months. And she says, but my daughter's ill. This was true. My daughter's ill.

I don't want to go away. And he says, I'm sorry, your husband signed the contract. So, you know, she had two daughters died. One son died while abroad in India. She gave birth signed the contract. So, you know, she had two daughters died. One son died while abroad in India. She gave birth in the wings and then she went on and did her performance. You know, she was, I guess, tragedy is the wrong word. She was a survivor.

She was an extraordinary survivor who definitely had to have a sense of humour. Well, I also understand that the phrase from her, the words, if it is to be found in nature, I know it can be played. And was attributed or very much spoken about by your late mother, Dame Diana

Rigg, who used to remind you of these words. Of course, a great actor herself. She said, she would quote that at me. I can't remember what, I think it was to do with her book, the reviews, but no turn on stoned. But Sarah Siddons said it was her observation of naturalism.

She was the first person because you've got to bear in mind these actors were doing all kind of performances with their arms waving around doing certain set positions. I'm happy you described that because we are on radio. It's a shame for our listeners not to know what you're doing. Can be a bit ditzy. No, no, it's great. There's a lot of flailing. A lot of flailing with the limbs and huge bass voice, tremulous.

And she was naturalistic and that's why she provoked these extreme reactions in women who were feeling all these feelings in their domestic life but were never allowed to let these feelings out until suddenly they find themselves in this theatre with the cross-section of humanity, from rich to poor, everybody's coming to the theatre and everybody is collectively emoting. But the key to that was Sarah's observation of naturalism

and knowing that if, you know, there were some ridiculous parts she was asked to play, you know, written by friends of hers, and she would say, I can't do this. And that's the truth. I think in some of her diaries, you see her actual reaction to the text she's being sent. God, this is an awful piece. I can't possibly do it. Whereas things that she knew you could find in nature, she knew that were playable, believable, credible.

And I think she sort of invented a form of naturalism that we still hold on to today. But she was definitely the first person to put it into words. Has it taught you, Rachel, as an actor, someone in the train, obviously grew up around it as well. Has it taught you a bit more about your own representation, how to put yourself out there in the public? Has it made you think? I'm hopeless. I've locked myself out of my own Instagram page. Excellent work. At some point during lockdown, which I think was a good thing.

Because I could see this sort of like, I got a bit parasitic about people liking things. And I thought this is not my best bit. You can't get into the likes. Because when they don't like you, it comes for you. So locking myself out. I am not good at curating my own image. I have the hair of a loo brush most of the time. And no makeup on, much to my mother's constant chagrin.

And I'm a bit of a mess in the image department. So I aspire to be more like Sarah Siddons. And can I just, I mean, you just mentioned lockdown there and your mother, but some will have come to your writing and what you shared about your mother, just very briefly, if I can, because it was in the news last week that Scotland could be the first UK nation to provide terminally ill people with assistance to end their lives if that was introduced, if that bill is approved.

And it's an ongoing debate about assisted dying in the UK and people calling for this, campaigning for this. And you wrote about your mother's views on assisted dying as she came to the end of her life. And you really shared what she had talked about I believe on a tape recorder yeah saying um that you know the the end was just so very painful and difficult and people shouldn't have to be in that position yeah how is that now having shared that yeah um oh well it she'd be so proud and um yeah I might get a bit weepy, she'd be so proud.

It's a no, don't mind. But the thing about it is that, you know, for an incredibly powerful, intelligent woman, it was pretty tough. And we did it. She faced it. We faced it with sort of fortitude and joy and laughter and camparis. and she was living with me and I was looking after her. But I'm incredibly glad.

I think people should be given agency at the end of life. On the whole, I wrote that piece so I could give it context and not burst into tears. But here we are. So I think she'd be incredibly proud. I mean, one has to acknowledge that the other side of it is, would I not have those two months when I was caring for her? You know, obviously her wishes are first and foremost,

but I loved having her for those two months. And we sort of became one in the same person. I knew what she wanted before she knew what she wanted. But the pain and the quality of life and stuff. And I gave her the best of an ending that it was possible to give, I hope, I think. But not everyone's able to give that. So I felt it was the right time to put her words out there. And I'm sure she'd be really proud of it. And like I said in the article, stirring the pot from beyond the grave, you know, and starting a national conversation. I mean, I just think it's, you know, when you have started a conversation like that, it's always good to, I suppose, just hear how it has been some weeks on, some months on in that, which is why I wanted to ask you also in light of that change.

Yes. Oh, my my god it's extraordinary I just couldn't um the next morning I was asked to go on every show and everything and I thought I just can't because I'll do what I just did then only worse have a good old sob which where it doesn't isn't really the point but the grief is still there because we were so close and much you know I mean having said that as I we had we we ran the entire encyclopedia of mother-daughter relationship from total, you know, non-speaks for a couple of months at a time to sort of ridiculous proximity. So anyway, it's made me want to write about her life.

So I'm starting to embark on that now and write about the laughter and the love because there's a lot of that. That was actor Rachel Stirling and playwright April DeAngelis. The Divine Mrs S is at the Hampstead Theatre until April 27th. Now, on Monday, we devoted the whole hour to a special programme looking at women and country music. As many of you know, Beyoncé has just released Cowboy Carter.

It was released on the 29th of March. Lana Del Rey has announced an upcoming country album. the country queen herself Shania Twain will be playing Glastonbury. So who are the female icons and what battles remain for women in the industry? Well Nuala McGovern spoke to the Nashville superstar Carly Pearce, the American singer-songwriter who went from performing at Dollywood to becoming a Grammy and three-time Country Music Association award winner. Her last album, 29, Written in Stone, was critically acclaimed and chronicled her divorce from a fellow country music artist. She also has a new album, which we'll hear about, but first, Nuala started off by asking her when she first fell in love with country music.

I don't remember a day that I didn't love country music. My parents say that when I was a baby that Vince Gill was the only artist or music or thing that would keep me from crying. So I think it was always in my DNA. I know that as a five-year-old, I vividly remember putting on shows for my parents and saying I was going to sing on the Grand Ole Opry one day. So let's talk about five-year-old Carly. My understanding is you went to Dollywood. I did. And that is, for those who don't know it, a Dolly Parton theme park, which is co-owned by Dolly in Tennessee.

Do you remember that trip? I went to Dollywood as a child just because I loved Dolly. And I always loved it, but I never thought like, oh, I'm going to work at Dollywood one day. But when I was 16, I saw an audition to sing in the country show there. And I was a good student. I wasn't trying to get out of high school. I wasn't trying to run away from anything. I had a really great life, but I knew I wanted to sing.

All my friends knew me as the singer. And so I asked my parents if I could quit high school and move five hours away to Pigeon Forge if I got this job. And my parents were like, no, you're a freshman in high school. Yeah. And I said, well, I'm going to get my license before then, and I'll find a homeschooling program. And my dad said, okay. And I was the youngest by six years, which you think about that, 21 to 16. That's a very big age gap. But I just walked in, and I did six shows a day, five days a week. Oh, what a training.

And so, obviously, you were there. You were working really, really hard. Next stop? Nashville. There was probably no question there. I'm thinking that you were already on this path. I moved there when I was 19 and it was crazy. And it took me a really long time to get noticed.

What is it like when you get there? Because I've often heard of musicians going there. And I'm wondering, is it like Hollywood with all wannabe actors? Oh, my gosh. Yes. You're like a really, really small fish in a huge pond. And I just like tried to meet people and played every writer's round that I could and wrote with anybody. And I remember getting like little jobs that I was an Airbnb cleaner so that I could make my own schedule so that I could write songs in the morning or write songs at night or go to shows. I mean, it was just a hustle for a long time. I heard no a lot before I heard yes. Was being a young woman a help or a hindrance?

When I first got there, there were no females on the radio at that time. And you think about country music in the 90s and women ruled. But in this period of time, kind of before the wave that is now a part of me, you really only had Carrie Underwood and Miranda Lambert and Taylor Swift. Some people would have like hits, but it wasn't like a career. And I felt like I would go in somewhere and I was almost penalized for being a woman. And it was really hard. In what way do you think being penalized? I think people thought women didn't work on radio, which is crazy. Okay. I'm taking that as a personal offense.

It was crazy. And I used to always think like, no, like when I was growing up, this is that women didn't like female a woman is writing music, she's writing for the other women and men can't write songs for that. You know, we can relate to that, but it's not the same. It's not that perspective. And I always felt like that was such a cop out. And I was like, there's no way that women would rule like they did with, you know, Faith Hill and all the ladies in the 90s, Shania and Leigh-Anne Womack and all these women. It was an interesting thing. But once there started to be a few women get through and show, I mean, we've come so far in the time that I've been in Nashville. Carly, your last album was called 29, written in stone. And you've called turning 29 the year you got married and got divorced. That must have given quite a bit of material. I think that's the most country thing that could

ever happen to somebody. Yeah, I, you know, it was the global pandemic as well. So we were all forced to be at home and I think I was forced to either let this control me or do something about it. And the only thing that I could control was writing about it. But I think it is what saved me during that time. It was like my diary. I want to come to a full circle moment. We talked about Dollywood. But Dolly Parton surprised you with an invite to the Grand Old Opry. So this is this legendary country music venue in Nashville, for those that aren't country music fans. What did that mean to you?

Oh, my gosh. I mean, the Opry has been my dream just as much as being a country music singer. I wanted to be a member of the Opry. And so to have that moment where I have this person that has been so influential in my life and everybody else's life that wants to do this, come and asked me to be a member of the family that I wanted to be a part of so badly. It was one of the greatest moments of my life. And when she said it, I dropped to the ground. What is Dolly like in person?

She smells really good. I'll say that. I've gotten to work with her quite a few times in the last couple of years and she's just such a delight. She's everything that you would want her to be. She's kind of like a fairy godmother, yet unattainable, yet also like your friend. She's like a great aunt. Hummingbird is your upcoming new album. Why is it called that? Somebody told me that hummingbirds are a sign, like, I guess it's been said, and I looked it up to make sure, that hummingbirds are a sign that the healing process can begin and that good luck is on the way. And that's what the last few years have been for me in so many different ways. And it just felt like this album and this season has been that doing the work and still doing the work and still trying to figure out how to fully heal. And there's been so much luck through pain. me that that album would make me two-time female vocalist, Grammy winner, all these awards that I have, Grand Ole Opry member, the home that I have, just the life that I have. I would have never,

never believed it. And I think for me now, so much bigger than just music and being an artist on the radio, my purpose is to show people you can use pain for purpose. And your story, there's light after darkness, there's like a lot of light after darkness, and maybe the best season is coming after you kind of rebuild yourself from the ground up. That was Carly Pearce, her new album Hummingbird will be released on the 14th of June, and she'll be touring the UK in February 2025. And if you'd like to hear the whole of the Bank Holiday programme about women and country music, it was on the 1st of April and is available now on BBC Sounds.

That is it from me today, but do join Emma on Monday. She'll be hearing why toddlers could hold the secret to happiness and what science says we can learn from them. Plus, why belly button piercings are making a comeback. That's all from me. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more

questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.