Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Priya Ragu, Women in the Ukraine, Inheritance laws

Episode Date: March 5, 2022

Swiss-Tamil singer Priya Ragu has been shortlisted in the BBC Sound of 2022 Poll – joining Adele, Jessie J and Celeste. She tells us how her music plays homage to her heritage and is a fusion of traditional Tamil music, RnB and Soul, which she uniquely calls ‘Ragu Wavy’.All week we've been covering Ukraine. We hear from Lesia Vasylenko, a Ukrainian MP who describes her new reality of being trained to use an assault rifle to defend her family and her country and Olena Symonenko who decided to flee Kyiv, and has escaped to Poland with her 6 year old son. If the Mona Lisa could speak what would she say? A new novel by Natasha Solomons gives voice to the painting and lets her tell her own story. We speak to Natasha and the Da Vinci expert Professor Martin Kemp.A person guilty of manslaughter or murder is already prevented from inheriting their victim’s estate by what’s known as the Forfeiture Rule. But should that law be extended to somebody guilty of domestic abuse? We speak to MP Florence Eshalomi, who is attempting to change the law. We also hear Tom Guha's story. He has had to deal with exactly this issue since his mother died and his stepfather’s behaviour was found to have a direct link to her death. Swiss-Tamil singer Priya Ragu, who has been shortlisted in the BBC Sound of 2022 Poll -joining Adele, Jessie J and Celeste, talks to Anita about how her music plays homage to her heritage and is a fusion of traditional Tamil music, RnB and Soul, which she uniquely calls ‘Ragu Wavy’.Danielle Marin is the author of Top Girl, a book exploring her first-hand experiences with drug dealing, gangs and violent crimes. Danielle wants people to know about young women who get caught up in this kind of lifestyle, and how she found a way out.And in our new series called Threads, celebrating the emotional power of old clothes, listener Sarah tells us about a very special pair of knickers, given to her by her dear friend Ruth on her 21st birthday almost 40 years ago.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. This podcast is sponsored by Wise, the app for doing things in other currencies. If you're sending or spending money abroad, you should use Wise. You'll have up to 40 currencies in the palm of your hand. Wise gives you the real exchange rate, which means you'll spend less on fees and more of your money gets where you need it to be. Download the WISE app today or visit wise.com. T's and C's apply.

I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. From author Natasha Solomons, who's giving the Mona Lisa a voice, we have music from rising star Priya Raghu, and Daniel Marin talking about her experience of life in a gang

and how she found her way out. But first, all week we've been covering Ukraine. The number of refugees leaving Ukraine has reached a million. The UNHCR are projecting that over four million refugees may need protection and assistance in countries neighbouring Ukraine. As the conflict continues, we've seen footage of predominantly women and children fleeing the country, but that is just one aspect of this conflict. There are also many women who've stayed in Ukraine and signed up to fight.

Back in December, Ukraine's Ministry of Defence expanded the number of women who are eligible for mandatory service in the armed forces. They'll be joining the 57,000 or so women aged 18 to 60 already serving. But is there an appetite for more women to sign up? And what roles are they likely to play? On Monday, we heard from Ukrainian MP Leslia Vasylenko, who told us about her new reality of being trained to use an assault rifle to defend her family and her country. There's a lot of technical issues there. So I am not accustomed to arms, as I said. So it's a bit tricky. The trickiest part is that it requires a lot of strength, not to pull the trigger, but to actually, you know, load it,

unload it, to hold it. So there's, you need a lot of physical strengths and particular physical strengths, not even in your arms, but in your hands and in your fingers. So that's the trickiest part for me. So I had, this is a girly, girly issues of war, if you like right now, I had a very nice manicure with long nails the first thing I did when I got my family into safety is I cut off all the nails in order to be able to use the guns that I have wow and have you practiced shooting it so far I practiced with another gun that my father-in-law has in the house, which is a kind of a sports gun, because I can't waste the bullets that we have.

We really don't have that many bullets for territorial defense. All the bullets are going mostly for the Ukrainian military. So the other appeal that we have to the international community is keep sending us ammunition, bullets, rifles, because there's not enough rifles to go around the territorial defence units. We need helmets, we need bulletproof vests, we need medical kits to be able to stand. Have you thought about that moment when you might have to use that weapon, that assault rifle? I see that you've posted pictures with it, you've said that you're willing to use it. But that moment when you actually have to point it at another human being and pull the trigger,

have you thought about that? No, and I'm not going to think about that, because giving it too much thought will desert the action. If, if the time comes, I will be using it. And that is the only mantra that I have in my head. We also heard from Elena Simonenko, who spoke to us on Woman's Hour last week. She'd decided to flee Kiev and was down in a bunker with her six-year-old son, having left her apartment, which she'd lived in as a child and all her adult life. She left just in time as that night her block of flats was bombed. and now again the situation was this and that's um that's a very bad he he he's trying to be okay and you know exactly what he said he said yesterday before we went to sleep because we

could sleep that was quiet and we said okay we need to sleep at least for a few hours because we don't know how the night will be and we told told him this. And he's a very active boy, but he said, OK, yes, we will go to sleep. And he said, I never slept in this house before. I said, you know, there is the saying in Ukraine that if you sleep in the first house for the first time, you should make a wish. And he told his wish. You know what was that?

He said that he wants the war to stop. And he wants for the president of Russia to become a good person. This is my son. He's six and he's saying this himself. Just imagine. Well, we kept in touch with Elena all week, tracking her journey, and she's now reached Poland. I caught up with her this week, and halfway through our conversation, her son came into the room to join her. She started off explaining why she left seven days ago.

Basically, we've been trying to reach the border of Ukraine. We didn't want to leave. I feel myself like betrayed that I leave the country. But on the other side, I understand that they have the six years old with me and I have no, you know, right to ruin his childhood totally. So there was the possibility to live with him and we left. And where are you now? Right now we reach to Warsaw, where we are staying with some amazing people and we don't know them before. It's just a friend of a friend

and they give us their shelter, their home. But that was a long trip. We've been on the road for like six days. So you're in Poland. When did you arrive? We arrived yesterday night. And you're on the road for six days. So you're in Poland. When did you arrive? We arrived yesterday night. And you're on the road for six days. Yes.

Tell me about the journey. Where did you travel through? I think we got the last chance to leave the city. And my mom, she was so scared to leave the basement because it was bombing all over and she said that she will not make it and she has a problem with leg and she said she cannot be in the car and it's better for her to stay them together in a basement. So, yeah, sorry. So we just put on every window in our car. We rode kids in Russian, дети,

because our son was in the car. And then we tried to make it to one city. And normally it takes like one hour and a half and we've been on the road nine hours non-stop with a six years old in the car and then we slept uh in a like motel room just across the road and then we slept like five hours and sit down in the car again and then my husband he was driving us to the to west of ukraine which is the closest cities to the border it's so we've been driving there 20 hours you know you look in the traffic and you rarely see men driving their cars and small like women and kids like two women and they're like three four kids and everybody

driving non-stop because if you stop then you will be for these five minutes you will pay like one hour and when we were driving through ternopobyl and luckily my son he fell asleep and then the you know the siren because of the other attack warning was in air and we just standing in the middle of the road

and the siren was going yes so that was so scary but good that my son he didn't hear it because he's still in a safe place for a while now. But he's still like, if the car engine is outside the street and it's going on and he's still like, what is this? What is this? What do you say to him when he asks, what is this? Look, he knows what is this.

And he said, you know, I know that we're not going to a trip. I know that we are trying to save our lives. And I understand everything. You think I'm not understanding? I understand everything. So he knows. And Elena, you had

the logistics organized for you. Somebody came to pick you up and took you into Poland. What about the women, the other women and children that were on the train? Did you talk to them about what their plans would be? Yes, yes. The other women, they just somebody has somebody and people are so united these days. They just, you know, at least, you know, one person and another person tell another person and somebody's my friend sophia she's as well in

in warsaw these days and she say she cried she just cried she said i feel because i'm homeless i i feel like i don't have any future they they took our future the future of our kids. We have everything, you know, prepared. It was nice. It was our home. And that's it. They all vanished. But the most horror is for those people who, sorry, who stays in Ukraine. Have you spoken to any of your family?

Have you managed to contact your mother? Yes. We have the rule to my mom. She is texting every hour. And how is she? Every hour. How to tell you? She's saying she's doing good.

Where is she? Is she still in the basement? They're trying to be at the house, but when it's Syrian, they go in the basement? They're trying to be at the house but when it's Syrian, they go in the basement and stay there. But it's about three or four times a night. And now we have this

news about my son here. Is that your son? Yeah. How is he? That's my son. He's playing. Because he's playing with the guys. They're trying to convince him and play with him as much as possible. They work from home these days and trying to play with him

just for him to forget all this. You described him last week when we spoke to you on the programme as your brave boy. Yes, he is. But he couldn't last that long because when we arrived already to this place in Warsaw and he was managing. He didn't cry any single tear, not dropped from his eye. And then he was just, you know, probably he felt at a safe place and then he started crying. And then he fell asleep and in the morning I asked him, he said, mom, I was crying yesterday.

I was so, I'm so, you know, I was so crying. I said, it's okay, you have to cry. I mean, I was crying yesterday. I was so, you know, I was so crying. I said, it's okay. You have to cry. I mean, you have to cry. And he said, Mom, I feel so tired traveling. Yeah, so. Have you spoken to your husband, Elena? Are you in touch?

We spoke yesterday evening. He stayed in the west of Ukraine. He's helping all those people who are arriving, managing this. And also he's doing some other good things that supports our army. I know you've only just arrived in Poland, but do you have any idea

of how long you will be staying there or what? I have no idea I have no idea and I'm in a in a position that I don't know what it's going to be I don't know where we can go where we can I mean everybody is saying stay with us we can we can organize this for you from different countries all over my colleagues. But, you know, I mean, he should go to school in a few months. And I know there's a real sense of urgency and we're reading and seeing pictures of refugees crossing the border. And we've heard that there's about a million, predicted to be over four million. What do people need right now? You know, the worst thing is that people probably think only about now and today and to escape.

It's about to get the kids to the peaceful environment to protect the kids at least. But what supplies are needed, do you know? I know that you're lucky you're in someone's home, but for people who are traveling with their children, what's the essential requirements? It's cold. Yeah, so basically people don't have even the proper clothes. And some of them traveling like a week or so

and sitting somewhere in a week in the same clothes so they have no even place to wash so they need a shelter they need like the warm stuff obviously food supplies and and guys psychologists we all need psychologists to talk to us and to to our kids that's the most important and i would really ask all the people with this profession try to to help and talk to to ukrainian people somehow because we we have to talk we will you know manage it we know that the ukrainian women we will manage it but to keep it all inside is not healthy that was elena simonenko speaking to me from the safety of an apartment in poland now there's a painting which even if you're not an art fanatic you will immediately be able to visualize when i I name it, the Mona Lisa.

Leonardo da Vinci's 1503 masterpiece is the most famous piece of art in the world. Well, a new book is out, giving Mona a voice. I, Mona Lisa, is told from the point of view of the painting herself. The author of the book, Natasha Solomons, and art historian and da Vinci expert, Professor Martin Kemp, joined Jess on Monday's show. Jess started off by asking Natasha

why after all these years of the painting staring directly at us, she decided to write a book where Mona Lisa is able to talk. I was looking at the Mona Lisa behind her layers of glass in the Louvre and I was thinking that everybody who goes to look at her says it looks as though she's just about to speak and I thought well what if she is speaking what if she's been speaking for years it's just we haven't been listening and so in my in my novel she does not everyone can hear her but a few choice few and um and I've I've given her her voice back which has been which has been a joy.

Absolutely intriguing. Now, Natasha, before Mona Lisa was obviously put on display, this book goes back to the beginning, the early 1500s, when Mona Lisa was originally brought to life by Da Vinci's brush. What gave you that idea? Well, as I said, I wanted to sort of have her narrate her own story and from the moment she swims into consciousness at the end of Leonardo da Vinci's paintbrush and it's a sort of renaissance trope in a way the the the painting who comes to life and who the painter falls in love with his own painting and in this version it's the painting loves the painter back and as I was writing the book I sort of it because I wrote it

during lockdown I had so much research to do but all the libraries were shut and so it was so difficult I had everything I could from from Amazon and I sort of reached a little bit of a brick wall after a while so I sort of I sent a desperate plea out into the ether to Martin pleading for his help um saying I've got this crazy idea for a novel with a talking Mona Lisa but um I need a bit of help with my research. Would you mind helping me? And to my amazement, he said yes, which was amazing. Of course. Of course you said yes, Martin. You have probably analysed this painting in every way possible over many decades.

What did you make of all this, Martin? Does this book make you view the painting differently? I absolutely love it. It does in a whole number of ways. But I'm fascinated by what a novelist can do and what a historian can do. And I think we're in complementary business. I picked up, and I've got a quote here from Natasha, there was only one painting like me. The other pictures could be looked at, but none of them could see. Now, one of the things I've been emphasising with Mona Lisa is it's a very daring picture.

We take it for granted. But for a woman in the Renaissance picture to look at you directly is bad manners. That's not done in portraiture. And to smile and react to us is even more. So the picture, part of even more so the picture point of part of the point of the picture in a sense it the the sitter she lisa garadini is actually looking at us and reacting i've seen it or her twice out of the frame and it's absolutely uncanny so the

novelist gets there in a much more beautiful way than i do, but I get there in my plodding way as a potential historian. I reject the idea that you're plodding, Martin. I absolutely reject that. But I do absolutely agree that Mona Lisa is a rebel because I think we've been too much influenced by sort of Walter Pater and the idea of sort of Mona Lisa as this vampire of the deep. And we've been looking at her through her bulletproof glass for

too long and the colours by now sort of seem muted and we stare at her through the sea of other tourists and what I wanted to go back to was this idea of Mona Lisa the rebel and that I think was what Leonardo tried to convey was this daring woman who stares not only directly at us but she smiles and he knew when he was painting her that he was painting a painting and painting a woman who would change painting and change history. And that was the voice that I tried to create

in this novel was a daring woman and a bold woman and a Renaissance rebel, not this sort of mysterious sphinx, but a Renaissance rebel. And I think that was the woman that Martin in his art history describes and that was the voice that I wanted to capture in this novel and she's an adventurous my goodness the painting goes on adventures it really does it really does over the 500 years I mean tell us some of the things that you discovered and unearthed

about this painting's journey well I mean she crosses the alps on the back of the things that you discovered and unearthed about this painting's journey well i mean she crosses the alps on the back of the mule when she's uh i mean leonardo is um he sort of he he gets rather fed up being in italy and being overlooked for his commissions by um the medici and so it's francis the first tempts tempts him across to France and he accepts that commission, but then he needs to get to France, which isn't sort of, you can't jump on EasyJet when you're in the Renaissance, so it's a perilous journey. And how old was he then, Martin? He was in his late 60s. Martin Hickman In his 60s, yeah. And the way to cross is on the back of the mule.

So now to think of the Mona Lisa and the Leda and John the Baptist sort of swaddled in their cloths and in boxes, but on the back of the mule crossing the Alps is quite something. And then later on, of course, I mean, the Mona Lisa notoriously was stolen in 1911 from the Louvre. Yes, tell us about this, because you want to ask something that no one else really knew about, didn't you? Well, I mean, people have known about the theft for many years.

She was stolen in 1911, and Picasso was arrested for the theft of the Mona Lisa but I think one of the things that I noticed was that Picasso he's been he's been painted he in his paintings of the woman seated this sort of series that of paintings that Picasso has done all through his life. When you look at the series of paintings, if you just do a Google image search, what is remarkable when you look at them side by side, really whoever the muse is, whether it's Dora Maar, whether it's Eva,

really they're all of Mona Lisa, the contrapposto pose. They all strikingly, beneath all of them, they're of Mona Lisa. And we know of the connection. We know that Picasso was in the Louvre in the 1910s and earlier looking at Mona, and there they all are. And it's uncanny. Wouldn't you, I mean, I feel that. How do you feel, Martin?

Yeah, Martin, what did you make of that discovery? I thought, you know, I feel that. How do you feel, Martin? Yeah, Martin, what did you make of that discovery? I thought, you know, that's okay. But I then started trawling the internet and getting up all these images of seated women. And although they're very different, Picasso's style goes all over the place and he's always trying something new. There was a kind of common factor behind it, not just a seated woman on a chair, which is common enough,

but also the sense of mystery. And Picasso's women, I think, although he was a great womanizer, I don't think he ever really understood women all that well. So they remained rather mysterious. And there is an emotional sense in which Mona Lisa is playing a role for Picasso, not just the sense of a formal sense of the woman sitting in a chair. I became converted and thought, wow, that's actually a real insight. Have we stopped really seeing the Mona Lisa? It's the picture that's most difficult to see in the world in a way, not just the physical set up in France behind all these armoured barricades

and glasses and so on. But also you look at it and you can't stop all this stuff pouring back into you. You just get so much deluge of things. And I've written a book with Giuseppe Palanti about Mona Lisa, which tries to strip things back to the original and really get back to the historical sources and say, let's look afresh. And Natasha helps us do that. That was Natasha Solomons, an art historian

and Da Vinci expert's Professor Martin Kemp. This week marks the one-year anniversary of the abduction and murder of Sarah Everard by a serving Metropolitan Police officer. Her death ignited a wider debate about how to protect women and girls from male violence and the consequences of male violence. On Wednesday, we discussed the forfeiture rule, which is when a person found

guilty of manslaughter or murder is prevented from inheriting their victim's estate. Should that law be extended to somebody guilty of domestic abuse to prevent them from inheriting the estate of a spouse who has taken their own life linked to their violence. Well, MP Florence Esher Lomi Labour and co-op MP for Vauxhall is attempting to change the law after one of her constituents wrote to her. Tom Guha has had to deal with exactly this since his mother died and his stepfather's behaviour was found to have a direct link to her death. His mother, Roma, took her own life in June 2020 because of what the coroner concluded was anxiety precipitated by a domestic violence incident. While Jess spoke to Tom and Florence on Wednesday.

I lost my mum in June 2020 to suicide. It was only the year before, a few months before that the the incident of violence took place it was the first incident of domestic violence at least to my knowledge I'm pretty sure it was and I remember being told when my mum called me and she said that this attack had happened and I was just in disbelief and I turned to my partner at the time and I said to her but I really wonder how much this is going to change my life because I thought on the one hand maybe she'll be okay but on the other hand I was very aware that my mum had had a history of depression she had two bouts of depression in the past and I was really worried that she would

relapse and sadly I was right so four months after theapse. And sadly, I was right. So four months after the attack, she made an attempt on her own life. And six months after that, she did actually take her own life. So it was quite a quick, you know, her mental health did take a very serious hit. Despite the attack taking place, and my stepdad was found guilty of domestic violence in a trial that happened after my mum's death, despite that attack taking place, since then he's inherited her entire estate, so her house, her pension, and any savings she had, even though she tried to change her will after the attack took place to ensure she left everything to my brother and me and so despite all of that he's inherited everything um i first contacted florence

after he inherited the house so he moved into the house prevented me from even visiting it this is a house that i'd grown up in since i was eight years old um that he wasn't allowed to visit for the last year of my mum's life and that she had owned outright before meeting him. He moved in and sold it and there was nothing I could do and I just felt so desperate and so powerless and that was when I contacted Florence and I said surely you know this is wrong, surely we can do something about this and so she first intervened on quite a practical matter actually she wrote to the pensions board my mum was a gp her pension was governed by a public authority and so she asked if the if the pensions authority could intervene and ensure that he doesn't inherit that as well as the house um sadly there was nothing there was no discretion so if you're

the spouse you're you're sort of automatically entitled to inherit. You're automatically entitled to inherit. If there's no, in the case of the pension, if there's no other nomination. So my mum hadn't nominated anyone to inherit her pension, so it automatically fell to him. Florence wrote to the pensions board and asked if there was anything they could do. They said, no, that's the policy. But that was kind of when we launched this campaign to try to change the law to ensure that anyone found guilty of domestic violence is unable to inherit the estate of the person that they've assaulted. Florence, what was your reaction when you first learned about Tom's situation?

Morning, Jessica. To be honest with you when I first met Tom and he went through you know the tragic incident that happened to his mum there was a bit of me that thought this cannot be right and I assumed that there was already you know something in law protecting victims like this and when I found out that there wasn't I just thought about the issue of the discussions that have been going on in parliament with you know the police with councils with women's advocacy groups around talking about the issue of abuse and domestic violence and this just shows that if we are really seriously to take the whole issue of domestic violence and violence against women and girls seriously, we have to make sure that includes a massive loophole in our current legislation where victims, where there's a direct link in abuse, are still suffering.

And when I met Tom, I knew that I had to try and find a way to raise it directly with the Prime Minister. When I wrote to the Justice Secretary, the reply I got back was frankly painful and in a way insulting to so many domestic abuse victims. And there was a quote in there specifically, and Tom's highlighted the mental abuse that his mum suffered. And the quote in that letter said, a person is free to take the steps

once free from the abusive relationship to ensure that the abusive partner doesn't benefit in any way while seeking a divorce or making a will. And that advice woefully fails to understand the mental trauma that domestic abuse can have on victims. So I raised it with the Prime Minister in November, which led to our meeting with him earlier this year in January. And since then, we've had further meetings with the Minister for Safeguarding and the Secretary of State for Justice. And again, when I first met Tom and raised this and tried to get some coverage on it, there's been local and national media coverage. I've been contacted by other people from right across the country.

So this is an issue which sadly isn't in isolation to Tom's and his mum's tragic case. There are other people up and down the country who've suffered through this really small but really vital loophole in the current legislation. So I can understand that there's going to have been families that have contacted you in the wake of hearing about Tom's case. We'll come to that in a moment. I just want to understand how you're trying to change the current law. I believe there were concerns raised about unintended consequences and spurious claims, for example, as to why the law possibly couldn't be changed now. And I get, you know, trying to change, I'm relatively new MP, trying to change, you know, a long standing piece of legislation is by no easy feat.

But for me, I think where the government have said that they are looking into this actively is that everyone agrees that this crime and people who have a direct link to a person's death should not benefit. Everyone agrees on that. The difficulty that the government have expressed is that they're worried that this could then open the door for spurious claims, people who may, in a sense, try and abuse this change in legislation. But I think there's a clear case for reform on this, a clear case in terms of domestic abuse and inheritance. And I need the government to help me, to help Tom, to help many others in bringing forward an attempt to change this. And what I want to do, if we don't have that change, is I'll try and bring forward a private member's bill.

And as you may know, and as your listeners may know, changing the laws in opposition MP isn't easy. But what I want to do is keep pushing on this, using my limited power to address this blatant injustice. And what I want to do is build momentum and ultimately get the government to listen. You've mentioned that other families have contacted you, Florence, and there may be listeners out there thinking, you know, that they are affected in a similar way. What should they do?

What can they do? In the first instance, I'd urge anyone to contact their constituency MP. My details are public as well. I'm happy if people contact me, I'll link them in touch. What I'm trying to do again is build that picture to the government to say, the government have to look at working with victims.

Victims who've told me that even in death, they feel that they're loved ones and it's mainly women are still suffering. Victims who are having to live with that anguish and that mental health victims like tom who have been denied what's rightly theirs but for many of those victims it's not about the inheritance it's about the additional pain and

anguish that they are going through having lost their loved one in such difficult circumstances and it's so it's not good that the current situation can't be changed. We have to look at this. If we are talking about ending the scourge of violence against women and girls, we have to make sure that loopholes like this do not exist anymore. Tom, what's the next steps for you? We'll see. I mean, we met with the prime minister back in January to discuss this proposal. And I'd say there was broad support for the principal. And since then, we met with ministers of the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice. And like Florence says, they were kind of challenging because changing the law is never easy and they need to think through the unintended consequences.

But I'd say they were challenging in a constructive way. They could see what we were trying to achieve and wanted to make sure we did it in the most effective way um so I think those conversations will continue uh and if we don't get anywhere with the government like Florence said she'll she'll raise a private member's bill and we'll hopefully change the law that way um but as I'm sure you will agree it's a fairly common sense change to the law I mean domestic violence has been so sort of in the public consciousness, it's been reported on more than ever recently. And this is one way in which victims of domestic violence are not being defended, not being stood up for through the law.

So, you know, if the government is serious about cracking down on domestic violence and ensuring that people who commit that crime, you know, can't benefit from it, then this is a common sense law to change. Tom, thank you very much for sharing your story. Best of luck to you. Thank you also to Florence Eshalomi, Labour MP, for her insights as well. We did contact the stepfather's lawyer for a response, but haven't received anything as of yet. That was Tom Guha and MP Florence Esher Lomi speaking to Jess.

Time for some music. The Swiss Tamil singer Priya Raghu kicked off 2022 by being shortlisted in the BBC Sound of 2022 poll with previous winners including Adele, Jessie J and Celeste. After the success of her debut mixtape, Damn She Tamil, she released her new single, Illuminous. Her music pays homage to her heritage and is a fusion of traditional Tamil music, R&B and soul, which she uniquely calls ragu wavy. I spoke to her on Friday's show, but first, here's a clip of Illuminus. Priya, welcome to Woman's Hour. I'm feeling ragu-wavy.

I'm feeling it. I can see it. You can see it. Thank you so much for having me. Oh, it's a pleasure to have you on. The song is all about realising your potential and stepping out. Is that something you were feeling when you were writing the song? Definitely. I mean, the song was produced by my brother, Jeffner Gold, and it just describes

that moment when I decided to choose music in 2017. And then just following that path, you know, and a lot of things happened since then. And I just kind of feel invincible right now. Good, you should, because the music you're producing is absolutely excellent. I'm going to take you right back. Let's understand a little bit about your makeup. Because you grew up in Switzerland, but your parents were immigrants fleeing the Sri Lankan war. So tell me a bit about your childhood and what that was like. Yeah, my parents, they got to Switzerland in 1980.

And my brother was born, I was born. And yeah, we just had like a normal life growing up between two cultures. My father, he introduced me to music. He himself was a musician back in Sri Lanka, and he couldn't really fully live his potential because, you know, he had to take care of a family and flee the country. So, but music was always like within him and he plays the tabla and he also sings so he decided to create a band in a small town called St. Gallen in Switzerland so um and you used to sing with him I used to sing with him because there were no other female singers it was all only like uncles singing and playing in the band and my brother.

So, yeah, I was like the only option. And I was not even really into singing that much, you know. And especially Tamil songs was really difficult to sing. And so, yeah, he wrote down the lyrics of, you know, Tamil cinema music. And then I was just, you know, performing with him. And then it wasn't until you moved to New York with your brother that you started producing music together. Yeah, yeah. I mean, ever since, you know, I discovered like new soul music, I got really inspired by black music and then I started to really enjoy singing songs from

Lauryn Hill, Brandy, Indie Ari. And it took me really a long, long time to realize that this is an option, you know, to become a musician. Yeah, it was a long time. And your parents are fully supportive? They're into it? They get it? No, they were not supportive. They were against it. So I was not even singing when they were at home. So as soon as my dad left home for work, I started to sing. Even though he introduced you to singing, even though he brought you into it. But then he regretted it because I got into Western music. Ah, right.

But actually, you know, you can really hear the influence of both the neo soul that you're talking about and your Sri Lankan roots in there as well in the music. I need to talk to you about being a young South Asian woman who's sort of embarking on a career in the music industry because, you know, South Asian female faces in this world are few and far between. Yeah. I mean, so far I've been following MIA like 10 years ago and ever since nobody really, you know came into the scene and into the mainstream

you know and um so i didn't think that something like that would be possible for me especially growing up in switzerland uh speaking another language um being brown being over 30, you know, I'm like really breaking all these barriers and I'm here. So I'm really, really grateful. And you are doing so well. And I've got to talk about your look as well, because the clothes and your style is so distinctive. You look amazing and you look really powerful in your videos. Yeah, I think you're great um just and do you style yourself no I have a stylist her name is Nisha she's also from India and um we we found each other like two years ago and we decided to work with each other because she just gets me my visuals and my style and what I feel comfortable in you know and uh yeah so it's a lot of fun and you you've got loads of um tours

happening you're going to be performing at various festivals and anyone who's just discovered you I highly recommend you uh listen to Priya's backcast log because the stuff that she released previously is excellent as well. Priya, I want to wish you all the best for the future. Thank you for coming on Woman's Hour. Thank you so much. Come back and talk to us again anytime. Priya Ragu there. We are always prepared to champion new talent on Woman's Hour.

And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, all you have to do is subscribe to the podcast and it's absolutely free. Now, Danielle Marin is the author of Top Girl, a new book exploring her first-hand experiences with drug dealing, gangs and violent crimes. Danielle wants people to know about young women who get caught up in this kind of lifestyle and how she found a way out. We spoke to her on Thursday's show and Jess started off by asking her why she wanted to tell her story. I wanted to tell my story because I feel like girls in gangs are such a hidden issue

and girls are not really recognised as being gang members. You know, there's a lot of media footage about it being men from inner city areas and I just wanted to shine some light that there are females going through this as well. It's interesting that you actually use the word gang member there because every time you sort of mention it in the book,

it's in quotation marks because you're frustrated with that term. Where do you stand on that now? Yeah, I was really, I really wanted it to always be in quotation marks because I don't associate myself with that word. I never felt like I was a, I really wanted it to always be in quotation marks because I don't associate myself with that word. I never felt like I was a gang member. I didn't call myself that.

Other people were calling me that, the police, counsellors, etc, probation officers. So I just wanted to highlight that it's not, it's kind of a social construct and I didn't feel connected to that word. What would you have called yourself then? I wouldn't have called myself anything, but I would have called the people that I was around, my family. They were my brothers, you know, my aunties, things like that. So, yeah, we didn't really call ourselves that. I suppose from the outside looking in people would use the term gang member because you were involved in criminal activity there was a group of people synonymous

with criminal activity. Yeah that's correct and if you look up the term in the dictionary it is that it's a group of people with a common goal and yes that is true we all did have a common goal and that was to make money via drug dealing so yeah technically we we were a gang but me myself I didn't feel connected to that these people were my family and my friends and my community I see now there was um the book is very detailed there it's very you know you don't really hold back. You give a lot of brutal detail about what you experienced, what you saw, what you witnessed. And there was a turning point in your life after a brutal sexual assault in your teenage years. And you went to the police. The boys that perpetrated against you were never charged. And as a result, you lost a lot of trust in the police service. We've been having so many conversations over the past year or so about women's safety and the role of police officers. So how do you feel about that incident now when you reflect on it?

I still look at it. I mean, the actual act itself is still quite numb to me. I don't really have any emotional connection to it because I was just, you know, via trauma. The police, you know, I understand more now that they're just doing their job. And, you know, I do have I've always been taught as a young person to have respect for the police. But during my time, you know, drug dealing and all of these things that happened to me, I did lose respect for them. And I remember they told me at that time, you're going down a slippery slope. And the words they, those were the words that they used.

And it just made me lose all confidence. I mean, the men that perpetrated the sexual assault on me, they were arrested and they were remanded, but the Crown Prosecution Service said that they couldn't be charged. So it wasn't just the police. It was actually the whole criminal justice system as a whole that I felt let down by. Yes, of course. Now it's been, I think, five years, hasn't it, Danielle, since you first stepped away from drug dealing. But you've obviously been strong enough to able to change your life around and turn your life in a different direction. But I wonder if you hold yourself

accountable for what you did during those years and the crimes that you committed? Of course. And that's why a lot of the feedback on the book that I'm getting is that it's very brutally honest and I'm not painting myself as a victim. You know, I took on this role willingly and I wanted to throw some light as well on the fact that not every young person in a gang is coerced into it. Some people are doing it because they want to, because that's literally what we're seeing in our day to day life. I saw people that were successful as drug dealers. My friends were already selling drugs.

So you say that you willingly went into that life. You chose that that life but there's a lot of incidents within that book that when I read them it sounded as though you were groomed or exploited yeah so that's what I found quite interesting about writing the book as well because until it was written down on paper in chronological order I wasn't able to see um all the events that happened to lead up to me going to country and or county lines and sell drugs. At the time, I felt like I wasn't being groomed. I was actively asking my friend to let me go. I wanted to go. But in hindsight, the reason I did that was because I had dealt with so much trauma. I actually just wanted an escape and I got it via going to country or what everyone else would call, you know, engaging county lines. And when did you realise that what you had been through,

you were now perpetrating? So you had been groomed, you had been exploited, and then you went on to, i suppose mimic that exact same behavior and do it to others i mean i don't feel like i ever exploited anyone no one in um our business organization was exploited everyone was there willingly and people were asking for roles people were asking to go to the countryside locations. So I don't personally feel like I was exploiting anyone. If you mean the drug addicts, of course, yes, I was committing crime and selling them drugs, which was not great.

I mean more, I suppose, the young people involved in county lines. We know that a lot of them are underage. a lot of them are running away from bad situations whether that be home life school life whatever's going on in their personal lives and aren't necessarily of sound mind when they are introduced to this type of lifestyle yeah um so in all gangs in london operate. So I can only talk about the people that I was involved with. I was the youngest person involved. So there was no one younger than me. So there was no young people. There was no chicken shop, you know,

oh, we're going to buy you some chicken and you have to go and sell. There was none of that, like none of that at all. It was actively boys trying to make money to make it out of a bad situation. And I was also the only female. So the rest of them were men. So I don't, I didn't see any exploitation in my particular area of London. However, I'm not saying've managed to turn your life around. You've managed to stop the cycle. What do you think you can now pass on to other young people, to other women've been doing that for a few years now um I believe I get on so well with my clients and I can make change for them because I've been in their situation and it was the same for me when I met my probation officer who was such an inspiration to me she was very young and she seemed like she had experienced what I had experienced and that helped me change my life. Was that the turning point for you? A hundred percent. My probation officer was such an inspiration. I'm still in contact with her to

this day. She's an amazing woman and I now feel like I can be like that for my clients. Danielle Marin speaking to Jess Crichton on Thursday's show. Now this week we started a new series about the emotional power of old clothes, exploring the clothes you can't get rid of and why you can't bear to part with them. For me, it's a pair of Levi twists and a brilliant tank top with a skull and crossbones on it

with fame will come later written across it that I bought with my late uncle when I first moved to London. Well, we've been asking you two, and many of you have been in touch with your stories. A 46-year-old bright red hippie skirt owned by Caroline, no longer worn but much loved, and the Laura Ashley dress bought by Jan's mother on Jan's 15th birthday in 1974.

She says, I felt wonderful whenever I wore it, but the best memory is the day I spent in London with mum. It felt like the first time we went out together as friends. She even let me have a glass of wine with our lunch. Check you out. Well listener Sarah contacted us to tell us about a very special pair of knickers given to her by her dear friend Ruth on her 21st birthday almost 40 years ago. I spoke to both Sarah and Ruth all about this frilly pair of pants. We met at university, so quite some time ago. And well, we came from quite different backgrounds. So I came from the country and was more used to wearing wellies and a cagoule. And Ruth came

from Epsom. And so she had a great appreciation of the finer things in life. And so my education began. So tell me about the knickers. Well, my education was varied in all sorts of things. I mean, obviously, at university, it was a really informative time of life. So we discussed everything from philosophy to makeup to you know I learned I learned so much from Ruth so when it came to my 21st birthday party I had a lovely party and invited naturally all my university friends and especially Ruth and she decided she was going

to give me a really practical present because she knows I'm a very practical person and she gave me the most beautiful pair of knickers describe them to us well they are absolutely gorgeous then they were made by Janet Rager they're pink silk um they're all frilly and they've got loads of lace on them and embroidered roses they are absolutely stunning Ruth, I hate to burst your bubble. They are really uncomfortable. Let's bring Ruth in. Let's bring in worldly wise Ruth from Epsom, who opened Sarah's world, who was in her wellies before she met you. Why did you buy her these knickers? I had no idea. I was such an influence on her. It was actually because of a frankly hurtful remark, Sarah, you made when you were talking about what you might have for your birthday. And you said you would only expect

something frivolous. And I thought, well, I was looking for something that would fit frivolity and practicality. And there you were. So but I was looking at the photograph you sent of them the other day. And they're so 1980s. I'm not surprised you don't wear't wear them 1980s I've seen a picture of them I think we've put them up on our twitter they'll be on our social media they look more look like more like they're the 1820s I think maybe they were quite retro at the time I don't know but they were certainly the fanciest ones I could find what did you pay for them do you remember well I can't remember now um it was probably quite a lot for the time I think think it must have been probably about £20 or something, I think. She was a very good friend.

And you were a student at the time. That is an extravagant, generous gift. What was your reaction on receiving them, Sarah? Well, I laughed because, in fact, actually, what Ruth wrote in the card to me, she said, I'm going to read it out she said um you probably expected something frivolous but what could be more fundamental than knickers and uh and you sorry absolutely I'm smiling what a brilliant note to have in it as

well and you've carried on the tradition of buying knickers, haven't you? Oh, absolutely. Oh, sorry. Well, yes, absolutely. For my 30th birthday, I got Bridget Jones style big pants, which I have to say got a lot of wear and were worn out. And then for my 50th, I got a pair of Spanx pants. And I have to understand I've recently had a baby so it was really appropriate and much needed and then I've just had my 60th and what could be more appropriate for someone who sings in drafty cathedrals than a pair of thermal drawers. Amazing thermal knickers yes yes yes so so Ruth what's she going to get for her 70th? She should be very afraid, I think, after all of this. Yes, I've got plans. I've got plans. And what do you have, Ruth?

Because we've learnt about Sarah's frilly knickers. What item of clothing have you got that you can't part with? Oh, goodness. Let me think. I've got some very old things. I'm just trying to think. Nothing particularly that I... Nothing as extravagant as these beautiful knickers. things um i'm just trying to think nothing particularly that i i've nothing is nothing as extravagant as these beautiful knickers no no i mean the present sarah's given me the latest ones

were were handcrafted i should say but handcrafted dishcloths which i thought were mats and very useful as mats but also very good as dishcloths old clothes i've got i don't actually have anything of mine but i do have a very very tiny baby grow which three of my children wore when they came home from hospital which I still have and now um it's worn by one of the dolls that one of my granddaughters loves to play you can't part with that Sarah Sarah when was the last time time you put these knickers on an awfully long time ago because honestly I don't think i could get them over one leg right now oh sarah and ruth it's been absolute joy speaking to you this morning um and do get in touch with

us tell us what those knickers are that you get for your 70th birthday from ruth taking a trip down friendship lane with sarah and ruth and i'd like to ask all of you do you have an old dress a shirt or even a pair of socks that you just can't bear to throw away? Do you hold on to clothes because they fill you with nostalgia? Well, we'd love to hear from you. Email us via the Woman's Hour website. That's it from me. Enjoy the rest of your weekend and do join Emma from Monday at 10. Less on fees and more of your money gets where you need it to be. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com.

T's and C's apply. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly

alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme Peak Danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.