Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Putting your life on the page, Dr Lin Berwick, Poorna Bell

Episode Date: January 8, 2022

We explore why so many of us want to put our lives on the page. Can writing stand in for therapy? What are the ethical and moral considerations of such sharing. Julia Samuel is a psychotherapist and the author of Grief Works.Dr Lin Berwick MBE has cerebral palsy quadriplegia and became totally blind at the age of 15. She also has partial hearing loss and is a permanent wheelchair user. Now in her seventies, she has been a fierce advocate and ambassador for people with disabilities and their carers, and has written a new book On A Count of Three all about what it's like having a carer - and what she thinks carers should know.Military mums rally in protest at the decision to award former Prime Minister Tony Blair a knighthood. Hazel Hunt, whose son Richard died in Afghanistan, is considering sending back the Elizabeth Cross that her family had received as a mark of protest.Many of us will be thinking about making a change for the better now that we're in a new year. Poorna Bell, author and journalist, gives us some inspiration and talks about getting stronger, both emotionally and physically. Poorna took it literally and started weight lifting after illness and bereavement.'Collector culture' - the swapping, collating and posting of nude images of women without their consent - is on the rise. To understand why Anita is joined by Professor of Law at Durham University, Clare McGlynn and Zara Ward, senior practitioner at the Revenge Porn Helpline.Southall Black Sisters was founded in 1979 to address the needs of Asian, African-Caribbean and minority women and to empower them to escape violence. Pragna Patel was one of the founders of Southall Black Sisters and Wednesday was her last day as Director. We talk to Pragna about her 30 years in activism.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to the first Weekend Woman's Hour of 2022. We're right back into the swing of things with top interviews and juicy discussions to enlighten, entertain and possibly even enrage. Put the kettle on or pop that cork and settle in for the standout moments from the week just gone. Coming up, the author Dr. Lynn Berwick on her lifelong work in disability rights and military mums. We find out why a group of mothers who lost their soldier sons during the war in Afghanistan have written to the Queen, urging her to strip Tony Blair of his knighthood. And how do you stick to your New Year's resolutions? We hear from inspirational author and weightlifter Bruna Bell. Now on Monday, Emma spoke to authors Anne Patchett,

Kathy Rensenbrink, Julia Samuel and Arifa Akbar on the power of writing. In this special programme, we explored why so many of us are putting our life stories on paper. I know all about it, as it's something I've done and personally speaking, a very cathartic experience. Here's Julia on the connection between writing and therapy. I mean, there's very good evidence. James Penny Baker from Harvard showed that journaling, which is a kind of more informal way of memoir writing, is as beneficial as therapy. And actually the research also showed they had less colds and they were kind of physically healthier and I think where that comes from and I you know I could hear it very much from Anne and Cathy and from your clips is that feelings emotions are transmitters of

information they're in us to alert us to something that's going on. And when we allow those emotions to come in to our brain through the words on the page, we know what we're feeling. So because emotion and cognition are reciprocal. So you don't know what you think until you've been able to name what you feel or that you've put it down. So by writing, you begin to know what your own story is and what the story you're telling yourself and and I would add once you kind of get in within yourself and find your own narrative the story

you tell yourself is the person you become so if in Cathy's frame a person who's going to a writing class is told well you know you know, you're too boring. You haven't got anything interesting to say. They will take that as a kind of external judgment on them. They will then tell themselves, I'm someone who can't write a good book. And that will block them from being able to get the words on the page. I mean, they could also write a terrible book because they're a terrible writer. Oh, absolutely.

Just pointing out that in the middle of it. But I don't think from a therapeutic processing memoir perspective, it isn't the quality of the writing that is therapeutic. It is finding, you know, like Virginia Woolf said, like Anne said, most people don't really know, and Cathy said, don't know what most people don't really know, and Cathy

said, don't know what they feel and think until they get it on the page. Yes, I mean, and also, I mean, I've noticed just in these conversations, but it does seem to be a trend with writers, and we should probably distinguish between those who are professional writers and those who are also, you know, trying to be, or in the background, writing to help themselves. There are differences there, as you say, to be published or not or with the intention of public view. But it does seem to be a trend to do it in the morning and to find that almost like the cream that's risen to the top or whatever's been in your mind from the night before. And what can you say about that, Julia? The whole habit now called morning pages and you get it as an app on your phone or you can just buy a

notebook and a pen and people just literally put down as you say you know the thing that is at the top of their brain and just get it down on the page and a lot of people say that that clears their head and it can it so what people talk about for sort of well-being is the intention that you set for your day can predict how good or bad your day is. Get those diaries out, get writing. Psychotherapist Julia Samuel. And if you miss that show, you can always listen back on the BBC Sounds app and it's absolutely free. Now, Dr Lynn Berwick, MBE, has cerebral palsy quadriplegia and became totally blind at the age of 15.

She also has partial hearing loss and is a permanent wheelchair user. She wasn't expected to live beyond her teens and has needed care 24-7 all of her life. Now in her 70s, she hasn't let it stop her. Lynn has been a fierce advocate and ambassador for people with disabilities and their carers and has written a new book, On a Count of Three, all about what it's like having a carer and what she thinks carers should know. Well, Emma spoke to Lynne on Thursday and started by asking why she wanted to write the book. to encourage people who are going into the care profession and care agencies and people like that to get the book and think of a different way that they could work, being much more aware of the needs of the client and having an empathy for the work,

because a lot of people are saying at the moment, oh, well, if you can't get a job, be a carer. And when I hear that, my heart sinks, because it isn't just doing a job because you don't have anything else to do. If they have that sort of attitude, then they shouldn't be a carer in the first place. And that's not something to be taken lightly, is it? It's an important job.

It is an important job, and I've had wonderful carers, but I've also had some god-awful ones as well, where you want to pull your hair out. And unfortunately, I'm one of these people that have a lot of pain due to my surgery and the fact that I have cerebral palsy quadriplegia. Can you explain what cerebral palsy quadriplegia. Can you explain what cerebral palsy quadriplegia is? Yes, mine was caused because I was born at three months premature. So I was in an oxygen tent for the first three months of my life. And that burnt my eyes and damaged my brain, causing me to have cerebral palsy quadriplegia, which means that it's affected both my hands and both my legs. And when you're dealing with movement of somebody with cerebral palsy,

you should tell them what you're going to do before you do it. For example, I'm going to move your left leg or I'm going to put your coat on your right arm. But if they suddenly grab hold of you, then you have a lot more difficulty and spasm. And have some of those been some of know, some of the sort of memorable bad moments with carers? Yes. I could hear a wry laugh there. Yeah. Oh, no, I've had some absolutely horrendous carers

and I've had some fantastic ones as well. We'll come to the fantastic, because it's important to stress that as well. But just with the bad ones, I mean, do you say something? Is there an awkwardness there? How does that play out? Well, I certainly tell them yes.

And I'm often not very popular, of course. And also the ones that have been carers for years, because they know all the problems, they don't listen to what you say. And that's unfortunate because they often assume that all people with physical disability are the same. And of course, each one is an individual. And that's what I'm trying to express in the book.

When the carers get it right, the ones who have done excellent work, how does that manifest itself? It just works like clockwork when you work together because caring is about having a relationship with your clients. And, you know, so you all, you work together. For example, I know when carers are going to be doing certain tasks and I'll try and move my body to help them and things like that.

So it can be very difficult, but it can work wonderfully well too. You write about a sense of guilt that you have as well. What's that linked to? Well, I think initially it was a sense of guilt that I had knowing how my disabilities have affected the lives of my parents and people that I love. And obviously I'm very grateful to the carers when I'm not well and things go wrong for me.

But I still feel guilty about that because I'm sure they'd much sooner be at their own home with their families instead of being stuck with me for 24 hours. I mean, that's a burden to carry around in itself as well as having to deal with the day to day. Yes, I've always felt a sense of being a burden on people. But I'm still trying to live my life positively. Tell us about a couple of the jobs that you've had. Well, I started my working life as a switchboard operator with a city bank, the Commonwealth Bank of Australia. And I worked there for 13 and a half years. And then the bank decided to make me redundant at the time when my mother also worked there,

had to come up to retirement. And I was furious that they did that because I didn't want to leave work at 33 and although they gave me a pension, which I'm very grateful for, I didn't want to lose the work ethic. But there, I got a job with Disability Now that was the leading disability newspaper. And I was their counsellor. And I also did freelance journalism for them. And then I worked with Dr Wendy Greenross in her organisation called Care Match. My role was to talk to people who wanted to go into residential care.

And then I did transcription work. Of course you did. I was about to say, you sound like you've had more than nine lives. Well, I don't know about that. But a lot of variety. And you also managed to meet a man along the way and marry your husband, Ralph. Ralph was, he came to me originally as a captain client. And then he helped me do some voluntary work.

And then we eventually fell in love with each other and married and we had a wonderful life together but then sadly Ralph developed Parkinson's and Lewy body dementia that was a most horrendous time for me trying to cope with his needs as well as my own. And I was also combining that with being a fully accredited Methodist preacher. So my life was very busy at that time. And then... It certainly sounded.

Yes, and I also helped raise more than £2 million to build three holiday homes for people with disabilities, their families and carers, and they were purposely built by my original design. And they were in Norfolk, Scotland and Cornwall but sadly in the last week they have closed down and gone to other charities. I mean... Well especially I was going to say Lynn at a time where people have perhaps been thinking about holidaying in the UK because of the pandemic never mind how things are abroad.

You don't sound like a woman who will be easily deterred, though, or easily stopped, although I can hear that frustration is real. But with that in mind, and you mentioned it a bit earlier, how has the pandemic been for you? Well, if it hadn't been for Steve here, who was coming to help me three days a week, or four days a week, writing and stuff like that, I would have been one of the most loneliest people in the world, unfortunately. And without Steve, I would have been completely stuck.

He has been my mainstay. He's given me my sanity day on day. What an incredible woman and what an inspiring interview to hear in the first week of a brand new year. Dr Lynne Berwick, her book is called On a Count of Three. Now on the 1st of January, Sir Tony Blair became a member of the Order of the Garter, England's oldest and most senior order of chivalry, 14 years after leaving office. The ex-Labour leader, who was in power from 1997 to 2007, was given the title at the New Year's Honours. But a petition, signed by nearly 700,000, is calling for Tony Blair to have his knighthood removed, saying that his role in the Iraq war

makes him personally responsible for many deaths. A group of mothers who lost their soldier sons during the war in Afghanistan have written to the Queen directly. One of them is Hazel Hunt, who lost her 21-year-old son, Private Richard Hunt. Richard had been in the army for less than two years when he became the 200th British soldier to die in Afghanistan in 2009. Emma spoke to Hazel earlier this week. Well, like everybody else, we heard it on the media to begin with. And I think from talking to everybody on Facebook,

which is how we tend to communicate, everybody was of one feeling. I think the majority of us probably burst into tears, couldn't believe it. We were hoping that it was something that would never happen. And basically, we got together as the Bereaved Military Mothers Group and Mums for Justice Group with a lovely lady called Rosie Dunn, who has done numerous stories about us and for us regarding everything from the fallout of the wall to what the injured at home should be expecting or should have got. So it's covered a wide range. But to be honest, I don't think I've heard one single voice of dissent in what we're doing from the bereaved military mothers. You also appeal to the Queen, to Her Majesty, as a mother and as a grandmother,

to go some way to understanding what you describe as your collective plight. Yes. Yeah, well, obviously, you know, she is all of those, as are we. The only thing being is, of course, that having lost our sons or daughters, that particular branch of our family, we never will have grandchildren or great grandchildren. And also from the point of view that the Queen, of course, has as the head of the armed forces, has always been intensely interested in them. And we're just trying to appeal to those sides of her to try and set this precedent of taking away this honour, which the man, we feel, should never have been given in the first place. May I read to you something that one of our listeners has written in,

Alison, who's listening. She says, calling him a war criminal, calling Tony Blair a war criminal is totally unjustified since he hasn't been convicted of anything. You may not have dissent amongst the military mothers, but there will be those listening who perhaps have that sort of view on this. Yeah, well, that's because he's never actually been taken to court, which he should have done. It's been proved by Sir John Gilcote's report that the intelligence that he supposedly took us to war on was extremely dubious and in no way should he have made that decision as it was. And the fact was there was a very real threat at the time of the parliament actually overturning it, but he pushed it to its limit, he and his cronies, and the fallout was 179 people of our sons and daughters killed in Iraq and 457 in Afghanistan, which you can lay directly at that decision.

Not having to go over that report and of course, people be familiar with it or not. They may have read it. They may have gotten through some of the summary of it. But I suppose taking a step back, you mentioned it yourself, that some would say there's a great deal of good that Tony Blair did as well in this country. I'm reminded of a Labour MP yesterday, Peter Kyle, told one of my colleagues on The World at One on Radio 4 that he was happy about the knighthood, talking as a gay man. He says almost all of the freedoms I enjoy as such were granted by the Blair government. And others, I suppose, on social media who haven't signed that petition, cite other successes and improvements to their life that they put down to that time in government, whether it's tax credits, minimum wage.

They talk about what happened in Northern Ireland, him as a man of peace. Do you understand why some are comfortable with this decision? No, I'm afraid I don't, because I'm afraid I have the exact opposite view of that. The fact is the peace in Northern Ireland wouldn't have happened without Bill Clinton. It wouldn't have mattered who particularly was the Prime Minister of Great Britain at the time. And as for all the other rights and things, those would have all come about eventually anyway,

no matter who's in office in the number 10 Downing Street, because that's the way the world was turning anyway. Several of you have threatened to return your Elizabeth crosses, which are given to bereaved military families in protest against this honour for Blair. Are you going to do that? I seriously, seriously thought about it. I got it out. I put it here on the desk and it breaks my heart to think about it. But it pushed me to that limit where I feel that I needed to make a gesture. But having thought about it for a couple of days and many of our family friends have urged us not to do that because it is recognition of Richard's service and his sacrifice. But it's just so emotive that on one hand, you're honouring my son. And yet, on the other hand, you're then honouring the man who sent him to his death.

So on balance, you probably will keep it because of the memory of your son? Yeah, I've been urged by so many people not to send it back because it's of the fact that it's his service to the country and to us for our freedoms. But I never, ever thought that there would come a day when I would feel like that. And it's still chewing over in my mind. I thought if I may, we could end our conversation by me asking what your son was like, what Richard was like as a person, because, you know, I'm very aware there's a person at the heart of this that's driving your particular campaign with your fellow mothers. Yeah, well, he was typical out of his age. He loved his football. He loved his music.

He loved fun and games, going out on a Friday night and having fun with his friends, walking his dog, probably bullying his sister. He was a normal lad. But he loved the outdoor challenge that the army life gave him. He loved all the exercises and that kind of thing. And, you know, he could be a pain in the backside when he wanted to be. He was no angel, it is true.

But, you know, he was such a big presence in so many people's lives. It's not until you've lost somebody like that that you realise just how big a circle he influenced or was part of. And, you know, there is a huge hole that can never be filled. Emma speaking to Hazel Hunt there. And if you would like to get in touch with us about anything you hear on the programme or anything you may like us to discuss, please drop us a line. You can email us by going to our website. Still to come on the programme, Pragna Patel, the founder of Southall Black Sisters on what she's learnt from 30 years in activism. Now, how are those New Year's resolutions going? Are you doing dry jam but

already dreaming of burgers and a pint? Is this the year you'll finally learn Spanish to play guitar and climb Mount Everest? Well, how on earth do you stay motivated and achieve those goals? The author Purna Bell recently posted a photo of her literally jumping for joy after successfully lifting 130 kilograms in a powerlifting competition. When Emma spoke to Purna, she started by asking what that moment was like. It was incredible because I think it was my first competition that I'd done in two years. It was my first competition after having long COVID last year for about 10 months. So really, I was going into it just wanting to enjoy the experience.

But being able to hit a weight that I couldn't do previously, I couldn't do it, you know, two years ago, at the age of 41, in my 40s, was immensely satisfying. Now, I should make clear for people who do not know your work, they must correct themselves with that, of course, that you are not a professional in any way. Oh, God, no, no, this is all for fun. Yeah, it's a very amateur level. And even when I compete, I am by no means anywhere near the top of what women in my categories and my age group can lift. And this began, why? Was this a resolution? Was this a gift to yourself to start lifting? It wasn't a resolution, actually. It was more that I had reached a point. So this was probably about, you know, five or so years ago. I mean, and it started off very much as an idea of the

weight section in the gym absolutely terrified me. I wanted to get a bit stronger, but didn't know how and so dabbled around with it. I only really started competing about three years ago. But it was more born from the idea that I just wanted to be physically capable to do a few things around the house and realise that I couldn't really do any of those things. And that kind of snowballed into this real unpicking of, well, why did I not think I was able to do those things? And it was a very kind of slow journey from there. And feeling strong or perhaps hoping to feel strong must be a wonderful feeling it's it's incredible I mean having sort of experienced

both ends of the spectrum of you know having absolutely no strength at all you said you weren't very good as well in PE we should say oh god yes yes uh my PE teachers I think would keel over if they if they could see me now. But I was terrible at PE. I was, you know, the shortest girl in the class. I could not really do very much in anything that involved team sports. I was absolutely terrible at doing. So it is a real surprise. But I think for me, it's just, you know, when we're talking about things like New Year's resolutions and so on, I was thinking back to it. Every time in the past when I did, you know, that classic New Year's resolution of I have to go to the gym in January, I have to make it stick, I have to, you know, lose weight, do X, Y and Z, that never, ever stuck. And it always made me feel really bad about myself. So this kind of goal to get strong, which was a very kind of slow, gentle, kind goal for myself, which was focused on achievement versus restriction. I think that's

probably why it stuck for as long as it did, and will continue to be something I keep doing forever after. Yeah, I mean, you started to get to go into that before I rudely interrupted about PE, but I thought that was very important to get in. But, you know, the other context to this, and again, it's sort of the context of why I'm talking about thoughts for the new year in the way that I am, is COVID. And you were suffering with some of the symptoms of long COVID. Tell us about that. Yeah, it's I mean, I think because I'm still kind of mentally working through it, the sort of the aspects of long COVID, I don't talk about a huge amount. But what I can say about it was that experiencing long COVID when no one knew it was actually a thing, like it didn't actually have a word last year, was an incredibly destabilizing thing, and just also not understanding why I wasn't getting better. And sort of a combination of things, which I think I just, you know,

in my body and in myself, I just sort of ran it, it ran its course in January 2021. And, but then what I was left with was not knowing how to rebuild myself. So, you know, exactly this time last year, I was absolutely terrified of doing any kind of exercise because I didn't want to do something that would then sort of maybe make me go backwards and so on. And I think what ended up really helping during that time was just number one, consistency. So it was doing something really small and incremental every day, which actually started off just being yoga, to be honest. That's the thing I'm promising myself, but I need to go. Yeah. I mean, it's,

it's, it's an incredible thing. Like even just the act of doing something consistently every day, even if it's a really, you know, for 15 minutes, I found really helped. Um, but also that framework of what I had around, um, lifting weights, which was just patience that if you fail at something, or if you can't do it, it doesn't mean that you can't go back to it. It doesn't mean that you should feel ashamed of yourself. It just means that you need to try on a different day. And maybe that wasn't the day for you to do it. But yeah, long COVID was gruelling. I still don't think I'm over it in terms of mentally,

I think, thinking about it, to be honest. Well, I think, you know, a lot of people listening to this and we know this and we know it's actually more women who have been dealing with this and have felt utterly gaslit at times about whether it's them, it's in their mind. As you say, there wasn't a phrase for it until very recently. We'll be listening and we'll take some heart from what you've got to say. So thank you for sharing a bit of that. And I also know, and you mentioned about being stronger in the home, and you've written about this, you know, a lot of people have been dealing with grief, and a lot of people have been, you know, coping and perhaps living alone as well.

Maybe they hadn't been before. And I know also part of your wanting to be strong and getting into this was also after the death of your husband. And I just wondered what you'd say to anybody right now who's struggling to feel potentially some positivity as we are in a new year. Yeah, I mean, I would say so. I wrote a book about this called Stronger, which is, you know, focusing on women's strength and looking at that from every angle, whether it's, you know, mental, physical, emotional and so on. And, you know, as I sort of said in the book, it's definitely not like, oh, yeah, I know what's going to pull me out of this horrible vortex of grief. It's going to be lifting some weights. It's not as linear and it's not as simple as that. But it's about finding something that,

you know, grief makes you feel very out of control and it makes you feel very unmoored from the things that you used to be able to rely on and count on. And I would say that whatever gives you a semblance or an element of control, and by that there's a very important distinction between being controlling, for example, which is why I'm not a fan of restrictive diets. I'm not a fan of restriction in general, because I find that sometimes for me anyway, that doesn't really fit my personality type. What I'm talking about with regards to control is being able to give yourself a space or a practice, whatever that looks like, you know, whether that's a hobby or whether that's a physical activity where you can actually apply something to yourself and see a slow trajectory of change. So for example, when it comes to lifting weights for

me personally, it might be something completely different for someone else, is that I would tell myself that I wasn't very strong or I couldn't possibly do that. And every single week in, week out, I would have incontrovertible evidence that the way that I feel about myself inside is not reality, it's not fact. And actually that there is a different, there's evidence to prove that I'm stronger than I am. But also I think with grief, you know, there's a lot of anxiety that can come with that as well. And I think that doing anything consistently that isn't necessarily part of your day-to-day life also can be hugely meditative. It can be hugely restorative and calming. But it's a journey and it takes time. And sometimes you'll, you know, take a few steps forward and a few steps back. But it's about finding a bit of calm and respite within that and definitely gravitating towards stuff that gives you joy.

Poor Nabel there, both lifting our spirits and also making us all feel slightly weak and puny. Now on to collector culture. The term doesn't really give much away about what's going on and how sinister it is. Collector culture is the swapping, collating and posting of nude images of women without their consent and it's on the rise. But unlike revenge porn, it's not a crime. Now the people who've had their images shared without their consent or knowledge are demanding a change in the law to understand how big an issue this is i spoke to professor of law at durham university claire mcglynn and zara ward a senior practitioner at the revenge porn helpline and started by asking exactly what's going on collective culture is

something that we've been seeing um at the Porn Helpline the last couple of years. And firstly, the sharing of intimate images without somebody's consent with the intent to cause distress is against the law in the UK. The issue is with this collective culture is it's usually shared for sexual gratification. So images can be shared on image boards. They're anonymous, but they are broken down by country, by county, sometimes even by town. And they are there specifically to gain images of people that are in that area. So they could specifically ask for somebody's name or they could use their Facebook profile picture and ask for more images of them. So it has an extra layer of objectification and humiliation for women. But the goal is mainly for that collection and that sexual gratification. So who is it that's collecting the images and where are they posting them? So the images could be kind of taken from many different sources. So images could have been

shared by a previous or current partner, or the images could have been shared by previous or current partner or the images could have been hacked from phone accounts the key thing is is once these images have been shared on these boards it then people can then re-download them re-share them but they are shared onto these kind of they almost look like the old chat rooms like the forum board rooms so you kind of comment on posts that way there's no kind of you don't have. So you kind of comment on posts. That way there's no kind of, you don't have users. You just kind of, you ask for a name and then somebody could reply to that post with the images. So it does leave this extra layer of anonymity for the people who are doing it, but obviously not for the women who are subject to it. Their names are out there,

their images are out there, their location is out there. So yeah so yeah they have no anonymity how is this different to revenge porn it's kind of it's very different in the sense of the intent there even though there is still the intent to cause harm and distress the main intent could just be for sexual gratification so rather than there being one potential perpetrator there's a collection of potential perpetrators and they are anonymous but it could have been incited from um intimate images being shared about their consent or it could be as i said a phone hacking so it does have a little bit of different um could have a different starting point but revenge porn is illegal and this isn't so this is illegal if it's with the intent to cause distress um but, you know, the words intent to cause distress is really hard to kind of nail down. And in most cases, there is a lot of geography terminology, the way that they speak about women on these boards, but they are there most of the time for sexual gratification to kind of collect all the images of the women in their local area. I'm going to bring Claire in on this to sort of explain why this isn't,

what we'd like to see change and why the language around this is so murky and why it's not just the same as revenge porn. It's illegal. So the current law, as Zahra says, is that sharing sexual images without consent is only the offence if you can prove that perpetrator directly intended to cause that victim distress. And in lots of these cases, as we've just heard, the perpetrators don't even care what the victims are doing, and they often don't want the victims to even know. And the issue is also wider than just these very specialist boards. There's lots of groups of men and boys, you know, private WhatsApp groups, private Facebook groups,

who are taking and sharing images amongst themselves, largely to boost their status as well. So it's not just about sexual gratification, it's about boosting their status, it's about proving themselves as a man. And that's not covered by the law either, because the law just focuses on this one type of intent. So we need the law to shift towards just focusing on consent. The point here is these are images taken and shared without consent, and that's enough and that should be it, and that's what the law needs to change to focus on. So exactly what would you like the law to do?

Because campaigners want it changed in England and Wales and brought into line with Scottish law. What's going on in Scotland? How is it different? So Scots law is slightly broader in the sense that the threshold to prove this motivation to cause distress is not as high as in England and Wales. But across the UK, we need a more comprehensive, clear law that just focuses on non-consent. And that will make it also easier to prosecute these cases,

because we know that getting the police to have to find the evidence of an intention to cause distress is significant. And it's what puts police off investigating and prosecuting these cases. Zahra, over 60% of reported cases in 2020 had female victims. But do men get in touch with you as well? Yeah, men do get in touch with us. And we have had male victims but do men get in touch with you as well yeah men do get in touch with us um and we have had male victims that have had their images put up on these on similar kind of boards that are designated for men but the main proportion of it is women so um uh in our helpline for an average victim who's a man it could be 1.5 images that we report whereas for women it's 41.9 so there's just a huge there's a gendered issue here there's you know women are more likely to be victims and

there's also more content of women shared yeah um and what do you think about the term terminology that we use collector culture and revenge porn claire well revenge porn is a deeply problematic term and partly we're in this mess of the law not covering all these forms of intimate image abuse because of the focus of this language of revenge porn, which just focuses on a malicious or sharing these sexual images without consent. Because victims also find this language really harmful to them. It hinders their own recovery. And so just like we don't use lots of terms and words that people find offensive now, we need to stop using those terms like revenge porn. It harms the victims, but also limits what the police and what the policymakers are doing.

Claire McGlynn and Zara Ward, and there are links to help and support on the Women's Hour website. Now, Southall Black Sisters was founded in 1979 to address the needs of Asian, African-Caribbean and minority women and to empower them to escape violence. During that time, the organisation has successfully campaigned on many issues, including the rights of migrant women and forced marriage. Pragna Patel was one of the founders of Southall Black Sisters, and this week she's stepped down as director, a role she's had for over 30 years. Emma started by asking Pragna what it was like to open the first Southall Women's Centre in the 70s. It was a very, very frightening experience, if I'm absolutely honest,

because when we set up the first advocacy and advice centre for black minority women in Southall, I really didn't know what to expect. I didn't know what the issues that women would present with would be. I didn't know whether we'd be permitted to carry on. It was a very hostile environment. We were labelled home breakers, home wreckers within the community for the work that we did in supporting women escape violence and abuse. We had a very radical upfront name, Southall Black Sisters,

which kind of announces our politics and our values on our sleeve. What do you mean? Sorry, just if I may, what do you mean by that for those who don't know? So black was a term that we adopted to signify unity across different ethnicities and nationalities and backgrounds. And sisters was very much a feminist term born out of our emergence from a wider feminist movement, the second wave feminist movement. So we were radical and upfront, you know, in what it is that we were seeking to do within the community, which is to challenge cultural norms and values, patriarchal status quo, and also challenge racism that was rife in the 70s and 80s on the streets, in the workplaces,

in institutions and so on. But we were very, very uncertain as to what it is that women would come to us with, what kind of experiences, stories, accounts. And very quickly, it was established that the issue that most women wanted support with was violence, violence in the home, violence in their relationships, in their marriages and so on, which actually is not so surprising because there were, you know, in those days, neither the state was interested in gender-based violence, nor community institutions, which were very male-dominated. And so women had nowhere to go, particularly black minority women had nowhere to go with these experiences, with these, you know, sort of experiences of oppression and

constraints. And so it was inevitable that, you know, they would come to our doors. And that, in a sense, has determined our agenda, has determined our programme, our campaigning over the years. It's very much focused on challenging all forms of violence and control that women experience in the private sphere and related issues such as immigration insecurities, homelessness, poverty, isolation, marginalisation, racism and so on. How much do you think identity politics is causing greater fragmentation, greater divide than bringing people together?

Because, of course, just as you've described, there were services that you were providing and support that wasn't there before because black and minority ethnic women were not being seen or some of their specific issues were not being seen. But we're in a very different place these decades on in some ways, not in other ways. I totally accept that. But how do you marry those two? And what's your view on that? I think identity politics is a considerable challenge for us, not just in the feminist circles, but actually within all social justice movements. I think identity politics has kind of taken root in a way that I feel is

profoundly regressive. It is a focus on individual experiences of victimhood. It is a focus on difference rather than unity and rather on commonalities of experiences. And that's what worries me about identity politics, that it's kind of a narrow focus on identity and politics that spring from individual experiences rather than an analysis, a political analysis of structural discrimination and oppression. My fear is that all social justice movements, including feminism, is now completely, if you like, tainted by a narrow form of identity politics that actually has fragmented our struggles, is preventing us from unifying, preventing us from coming together on common platforms for change. I think it is hugely regressive and it is extremely worrying because it really is leading us down a political blind alley. We are not going to be able to challenge,

whether it be women's oppression or racial oppression or other forms of oppression, without coming together. You know, I've always felt that feminism is an emancipatory movement, but it is not just about freedom of women. Actually, ultimately, women can't be free if society is not free. So it's not about only promoting sectional interests. It is focused on women's issues, of course, and women's oppression. But wider than that, it has to be concerned about wider civil liberties and human rights issues and social injustice. And I think that is true for all social justice movements.

And I'm always reminded of June Jordan's words, very wise words, when she once said, you know, identity politics may be important to get something started, but it's nowhere near to getting anything finished. And our problem is, I think we've lost our way in terms of working out how do we get to the finishing line if we are so caught up in this kind of inward-looking, backward-looking sort of state of being, which doesn't allow for us to reach out to each other, to connect with each other, whether we be as women or other groups, and to understand our common humanity and universal values. Have you seen that around you? Have you seen people, for instance, not being able,

because they believe only I can campaign on this because I am this or I am that. Identity policy is kind of a clunky phrase, isn't it? Sometimes people are not sure quite what you mean by it. But there is a fear that has grown that if you aren't that particular group, you can't speak on behalf of it or with those people. I think so. And I've spent my entire life in the 80s, we were so worried about where we would find allies in the fight against oppression of, say, South Asian women facing honor-based violence and forced marriage. The state didn't recognize these forms of violence and oppressions, but neither did, you know, other feminists, a wider feminist movement. And partly it's that kind of paralysis of action that I'm talking about, because what it does is it kind of engenders fear and censorship. And it stops people from

calling out oppression, because they're too afraid to be offending other identities and sensibilities. If I can come in at that point, what would you say to somebody who perhaps would tell somebody off for speaking out, let's say? What would you say to somebody who thinks, well, it isn't your place because you don't want that paralysis? Have you advised people in that position? Yes, absolutely. I've advised a lot of white women, white feminists, white women's organisations who work in areas where there are no BME women's groups and who need to challenge honor-based violence, forced marriage, female genital mutilation, but are too afraid to do so and are afraid that other Black women will tell them that they're being racist

for intervening to support Black minority women facing these kinds of issues. My advice to them is that we need to call out abuse wherever it occurs, regardless of where it occurs. And at the same time, be mindful of the need to challenge other forms of oppression, including racism and so on. So my advice has been to women that you call out these things from wherever you are. We should be able to call out the oppression of women in Afghanistan. We should be able to call out the oppression of women in Poland. You know, that does not require us to be Polish or Afghanistani to do those things. It requires us to understand our common humanities and our common struggles. But what would you say, again, if I just come in here, to those who don't agree with that?

For instance, those who are saying to people, well, you can't say that. How would you convince them of your view? I think there's a difference between being racist and expressing solidarity. And I think that's the line that has to be drawn. And solidarity involves creating allies and creating spaces where you come together to understand commonalities of experiences. After all, all women have universal experiences, albeit in different cultural, religious and other contexts. those commonalities as well as analysing why there are differences, whether it's due to race,

whether it's due to class, whether it's due to other, you know, divisions of power, understanding those and addressing those at one and the same time. That is not an easy struggle to wage, you know, both understanding difference as well as forging solidarity. These are not easy situations to be in, but I'm very much against those that argue that anyone who calls out abuse in any community must be inherently racist for doing so. But on the other hand, I'm also going to call out those who challenge, who take up issues such as forced marriage or honour-based violence for their own political agenda, racist agendas, or to instrumentalise these for political agendas. So I think it's being alert to those kinds of pitfalls at the same time. Pragna Patel, one of the founders of Southall Black Sisters. That's it for

today. Thank you so much for listening. Join Emma on Monday for more Woman's Hour. Until then, I'm off to weightlift a tin of beans. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.