Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Rachael Watts, Dr Rosemary Coogan, Part-time Work, Failing the 11 Plus

Episode Date: December 3, 2022

Rachael Watts was seven years old when Russell Bishop abducted, attacked and sexually assaulted her in 1990. It is a crime that should never have happened, as back in 1987, Russell Bishop had been charged with the murders of two nine-year-olds, Nicola Fellows and Karen Hadaway. But police were unable to secure a conviction when a series of prosecution blunders meant evidence and testimonies failed to stand up in court. Bishop was able to walk free and three years later he abducted and attacked Rachael. Miraculously she survived and it was her testimony which finally meant Bishop was convicted and put behind bars, despite him protesting his innocence. Dr Rosemary Coogan has been selected as an astronaut by the European Space Agency, becoming the first British woman to join their astronaut corps. She joins us in her first in-depth BBC interview to discuss the tough selection process, upcoming training and hopes for her first mission.A cross-party coalition has launched a campaign to abolish the 11 plus entry exams. One of the members of the campaign is Jackie Malton, known for her success in the Met Police, and for being the real-life inspiration for the character DCI Jane Tennison in Prime Suspect. Despite getting two masters degrees and a doctorate, she still feels ashamed about failing her 11 plus.600,000 people in the UK are actively seeking part-time jobs, most of them women – but just twelve percent of jobs advertised in the UK currently offer part-time hours. We discuss with co-founder of Timewise, Emma Stewart MBE, and working mum Shaline Manhertz.Why is social media obsessed with nurseries and toys in neutral, muted colours? We speak to Hayley DeRoche who coined the term ‘sad beige clothes for sad beige children’, and journalist Martha Alexander.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, where we bring you a selection of highlights from the week just gone. Coming up, we have an exclusive interview with a woman who's kept her silence for more than three decades about what happened to her at the hands of the man who became known as the Babes in the Wood killer. We catch up with Britain's first female astronaut at the European Space Agency? And how do you feel about the 11 plus? As a campaign begins to abolish the exams, former police officer Jackie Moulton shares the impact failing the test had on her. But first… Rachel Watts has spent her life hiding a secret. Now 40, she was seven years old when

Russell Bishop, who became known in the newspapers as the Babes in the Wood murderer, abducted, attacked and sexually assaulted her in 1990. It's a crime that never should have happened, as back in 1987, Russell Bishop had been charged with the murders of two nine-year-olds, Nicola Fellows and Karen Hadaway. But police were unable to secure a conviction when a series of prosecution blunders meant evidence and testimonies failed to stand up in court. Bishop was able to walk free and three years later he abducted and attacked Rachel, leaving her for

dead. Miraculously she survived and it was her legal testimony as a seven-year-old girl which finally meant Bishop was convicted and put behind bars, despite him protesting his innocence. However, in 2018, forensic scientists presented new DNA evidence and Bishop finally received two life sentences for the murders of Nicola Fellows and Karen Hadaway, with a minimum of 36 years in prison. Now, ever since her attack, Rachel's family have fought to protect her privacy,

hoping she could lead as normal a life as possible. Rachel has never done a broadcast interview about what happened to her. But since Russell Bishop's death in prison in January earlier this year, she decided she wanted to tell her story. I have to warn you that there is some graphic detail in this interview, including details of sexual abuse, which listeners may find distressing. Emma spoke to Rachel earlier this week, and Rachel began by describing what she was doing on that Sunday afternoon in early February 1990 when Russell Bishop abducted her. I had gone to a friend's house on my roller boots to see if they wanted to come out and play but unfortunately they weren't

home and on my way home I lost control and I bumped into a wall. So I went home and my father was planting pansies in the front garden and I told him that I'd just dunked my head. And so he gave me a pound coin and told me to go to the sweet shop. You know, the whole sort of 90s walk it off kind of attitude that we were all brought up with, you know, fall over, pick self up, walk it off. off yes and go down to the sweet shop hopefully go down to the sweet shop yeah so that that's what I was doing and what do you remember about what happened when you came into contact with Russell Bishop um I was lost I don't think we'd been living in Whitehawk for very long.

And I couldn't quite find my way back home. And Russell Bishop was doing work on his car. My father's a mechanic, so it didn't even occur to me that he was any kind of danger. It always seemed very familiar to me. So was any kind of danger. It always seemed very familiar to me, so I asked him for directions. And that's when he grabbed me and threw me into the boot of his car. You must have been absolutely terrified.

Do you remember what was going through your mind? I don't really remember what was going through my head. I know that I had... it occurred to me to take off my roller boots because I thought if he opened the boot of the car I might have stood a better chance to run away if I had my roller boots off I was banging on the the roof lid of the car, trying to make as much noise as possible. But unfortunately, he told me to stop, and if I didn't stop, he was going to kill me. So I stopped.

I offered him the money that I had, the pound coin in my pocket. I said, look, I've got money, but obviously I don't think a pound coin was going to cut it. Well, no, you were a little girl just trying to do anything you could to get out of this terrifying situation. Yeah. He drove you 14 miles to a beauty spot called Devil's Dyke on the South Downs in Sussex. Yes.

What do you remember about what happened when he let you out of the car? He picked me up and threw me onto the back seat of the car. He stripped me naked and then proceeded to make me do stuff. He made me suck his penis and then he penetrated me. I remember feeling sort of wet and warm and I sort of touched and I noticed there was blood and I said, is that your blood or mine?

Then he put his hands around my throat and started to strangle me. The last thing I remember saying was, or trying to say, was that I can't breathe. And then nothing. And you were left for dead in some bushes? can't breathe and then nothing. And you were left for dead in some bushes? Yeah, he thought I was dead and he disposed of my body in amongst some gorse bushes. Well, the doctors said it was miraculous

that you had survived and survived without brain damage. Yeah, yeah. I suffer terribly with memory problems, which could be attributed to complex PTSD or potentially the asphyxiation, but there's no way of telling. Do you remember how you managed to get to some safety? Do you remember coming around and coming to?

Yeah, I woke up, crawled my way out and pushed my way out of the brambles which cut my arms and my legs and scratched me all over. I was very dizzy and felt very sick. I couldn't walk very well. I kept falling over. It was very muddy and I sort of stumbled more than walking. I was sort of falling over and crawling a bit and I saw two headlights in the distance. My first thought was, is that still him? Because it was very dark and I couldn't make out the car, just the headlights.

I was like, could that still be him? You know, he's going to finish me off type thing. But also it was very cold and I had no clothes on it was February and it was a case of well if I don't try and get some help then I'll probably die from hypothermia. You must have been so cold and so scared. Yeah yeah I was I was covered in blood and mud and yeah. And what happened when you approached those headlights? Thankfully there was a couple in the car called Susan and David, it must have been quite a shock for them, I think they were there enjoying a nice flask of tea on a Sunday evening. And yeah, so I approached them.

They immediately wrapped me up in a coat. They tried offering me some tea, but I think they were advised not to because obviously they wanted sort of DNA swabs and stuff. So they just kept me warm until an ambulance arrived I remember the ride to the hospital more sort of like lights flashing as we were going past in the windows um then I remember being told because I don't I don't really remember the days, weeks or months after. That's where my memories sort of stop, basically. I don't remember much after it.

But you go to the hospital and presumably your family come quickly. My mother came. Yeah. They weren't allowed to examine me or do anything until my mother was present. And she said that when she arrived, I was busy colouring in Rupert Bear in a colouring book. And apparently I was more upset about losing my brand-new jumper because I thought my mother would be cross. But her words were that we can always get a new jumper,

we can't get a new you. I know you're a mother yourself. Yes. You know children of the age you were then, having been a mum and seen them around their friends, it speaks to, I suppose, what you're trying to prioritise as a child, that that would have been how you were at that moment. Yeah.

And if I also can just say at this point how very sorry I am prioritise as a child that that would have been how you were at that moment yeah and it's you know if I also can just say at this point how very sorry I am for you on every single level that this happened and and how hard it must be for you to talk about this but I know you want to for a range of reasons at this point yeah I mean I'll honest, I feel quite numb about it. I still suffer with intrusive thoughts, so I still have all those images in my head which play in sort of 4K detail and surround sound in my head. And it's your memory as well, well though the vividness of it that really did lead to a huge change didn't it in terms of bringing this individual russell bishop to to

justice which which hadn't happened in the way it should have done a couple of years earlier yeah yeah the um the defense attorney tried to make me out as being untrustworthy and just a seven-year-old girl and that my testimony shouldn't be trusted. But everybody who heard my testimony said that I was very clear, very concise. You identified him in a line- a lineup you remember details as well about the car that he'd stolen i mean you didn't know that but you remembered things that really did help the police have the evidence yes yeah the um the banging on the boot of the car left indentations and also paint fragments on my clothes when they were found. The identity parade, he tried to change his appearance by using the water from the toilet bowl to darken his hair

and slick his hair back so that it would appear different. But it was his response that must have also been incredibly challenging, to say the least. He was convicted, he was jailed for life with a minimum sentence of 14 years in 1990. But he always maintained his innocence until very recently, which we'll get to. He even tried to sue Sussex Police, I understand, for wrongful imprisonment, regularly applying for parole. How aware of that were you and what was the effect? I was very aware of it. The victim liaison people used to call me regularly, which is when my agoraphobia and the

sort of anxiety and stuff crept in. It really, really hit me hard in 2018 because i spent many many years sort of thinking did i convict the wrong man did i pick the wrong person because he sort of tried to resisted that yeah exactly he he said that he was innocent all along. And of course, that started putting doubts into my mind until the 2018 trials when he turned around and like, I was nobody to him. I didn't know him, he didn't know me. So why did he feel the need to shame and belittle a seven-year-old girl that he never knew? He talks about that trial in 2018. He was retried for the murders of Nicola Fellows and Karen Hadaway when new forensic DNA evidence came to

light and what was again striking was that he protested his innocence at the murder of those two girls but he admitted what he had done to you yeah did that give you any vindication or any any closure I mean it's a horrific context, but how did that affect you? It gave me solace in the fact that I knew that I convicted the right person after all these years. It was sort of bittersweet, you know, because he finally admitted it, but the way in which he admitted it was very painful. That shame and belittling comment really broke me and as well as trying to cope with what had happened to you survive it and and build a life you've been also worrying like you say about whether you'd done the house. I suffer from severe agoraphobia, which unfortunately leads to what they call gastric urgency so unfortunately if I don't get to a toilet in time and it is immediate I need to

get to a toilet otherwise if I don't I will end up soiling myself which has happened on several occasions. So I generally don't leave the house because when I have to go out, I have severe anxiety and panic attacks. Was there something particular eight years ago that led to that being the change in you that you'd been trying to kind of carry on up until that point? The victim liaison people finally caught up with me. I know that they were just doing their job

and they were just doing what they thought was best. And they would call me and they would say, hey, he's going up for parole. And then it would be a case of they'd ring me again a few months later and say his parole has been pushed back. And then they would call me again and say it's been pushed back again and then they would call me and say well he's been refused parole by which point it was time to do the whole cycle again you know he'd be up for parole again

and then the cycle continued so it it was I know they thought they were doing a good thing but in actual fact I found it detrimental because I felt like where if they could find me if they finally caught up with me then who else can so it put fear back into you active fear back into your life yeah because I moved house a lot I moved flat a lot and then I settled down with my my current husband your friends and family how much have you spoken to to people in your life about this over the years I've kept fairly quiet I I don't really allow myself to get close to people. I haven't done because holding on to this secret for so long and trying to explain to people why I am the way I am, you know, why I don't leave the house and why I suffer from severe anxiety and memory problems.

So I just didn't allow myself to get close to people. My husband spent many, many years trying to sort of demolish the brick walls that I built up because I built brick walls to stop myself from feeling. It was to protect myself. And he sort of smashed them down and now I sort of I allowed myself to be loved and to love him

and it's kind of made me a big softie really I mean it's very important to have that bond I'm sure and that support and I know your parents were always at pains to try and protect your identity, to try and give you that choice so that you could go through life without people knowing. Yeah, they wanted to finally come out with it and sort of release myself from the sort of secret that I'd been hiding for so long.

I'd never have done it when he was alive because I didn't want him to see who I was now on the off chance that he ever got out. And also I didn't want him having the satisfaction of knowing just how much damage he's done and how much he affected my life. Russell Bishop died of cancer aged 55 in January of this year. Yes he did. How did you feel when you heard that news? I was neither elated nor sort of sad about it. I have unfortunately become very numb to the fact you know which is why I'm able to speak about it so brazenly

that that's just how I've sort of internally dealt with it it's just uh it is what it is this is your your first broadcast interview about this talking like this how does it feel saying it like this and and being public um it feels good because i want to be heard i i want people to know how much damage he caused. In a selfish way, I want people to know that I'm not okay and that I am unfortunately broken. Hopefully I won't forever be broken and one day I might be able to be okay and be better but but for now i'm sort of not great no sorry it's okay please don't apologize apologise. Do you feel that being able to say, finally,

because it's so striking, it's so moving to hear that you felt you had to wait till he was dead to be able to speak like this publicly and say how it's affected you, because you didn't want him to be able to find you or see what his actions had done to you. But do you feel any glimmer of hope that maybe by doing this and trying to free yourself that it will change your life?

I'm hoping it will. I mean, part of the whole process of me coming out and telling my story is that it will be a form of healing yeah you know that I can finally release myself from these constraints and from the shame of it um because I felt very shameful it was only literally a sort of a few months ago that I came out and told my dad and my mum that everybody thought that I was unconscious when he raped me. But I wasn't. And I told my mum and dad for the first time a few months ago that I was I was fully conscious when he did all those things and of course everybody had hoped that I would never remember but I do remember and I remember

everything so I'm I'm hoping that that one day I will be better because I can't see myself living like a prisoner for the rest of my life. What have you said to your children about this? Well, I told them before the newspaper article was written, I have four children, my eldest is 17 and my youngest is 10. And I told each of them and to be honest, it was almost like a light bulb went off in their head and it's like that's why you're the way you are that's why you can't take us to the park that's why you can't take us to this holiday and that holiday you know and and this is why you didn't let us go out and play

you know and spend time in the park on our own it made them yeah my eldest especially it was very sort of helpful to her to know that I wasn't doing all these things out of spite and just to be a sort of over controlling mother I was doing it because I had a a real compelling fear and I always told myself before I had children that I wouldn't wrap them up in cotton wool and that I laid back and you know easy going but it didn't happen especially my girls I have two girls I hated it when they had to walk to school and I mean even my youngest he got to an age where he wanted to start walking to school on his own and I still stood out in the street to watch him we lived two minutes away from the school and I would watch him walk to school because I still had that fear of like two minutes down the road anything could happen in that two minutes

anybody could just swing past but I I have my husband that sort of like that other voice telling me that it's okay and that you know I need to let the rains out a little bit and to be the voice of reason that that's what he is he's the voice of reason and he's my rock and he's just absolutely everything to me. I couldn't have done any of this without his support. And I couldn't have done it without my children's support, you know, if they hadn't been all for it. And they've even turned around and said, you know, how brave they think I am, which is lovely to hear from your children.

Yes, I bet. And what a lovely man that you're with as well. He is wonderful. He is wonderful. He has to put up with a lot, bless him, but he truly is wonderful. Rachel Watt speaking to Emma there. And if you were affected by the interview, there are links with further information on Rachel's story and details of the BBC Action Line on our website.

Now, according to NASA, only 75 women have ever travelled to space. That's out of a total of over 560 people who have made the journey. And no women have walked on the moon. However, that may be about to change. You may have seen the exciting news last week that the new intake of astronauts at the European Space Agency has just been announced, and it includes the 31-year-old astrophysicist Dr Rosemary Coogan. She's become the first female ESA, or European Space Agency, astronaut from the UK and joins the 16 other men and women chosen

from over 22,000 candidates. And she joined Emma for her first in-depth interview with the BBC. Emma began by asking her why she decided to apply for the astronaut programme. Oh, I mean, I've always been fascinated by space itself. I'm an astrophysicist, as you say. But I really wanted to start to contribute more directly to a lot of ESA's efforts in terms of exploring our local solar system, what that tells us about the conditions required for life on Earth, how we came to be, and also to be an ambassador for space. And of course, this is a great platform to talk about that as well.

It's always a bit of a pressure, isn't it, being the first of something? How do you feel about holding that mantle, the first female European Space Agency astronaut from the UK? It really is a fantastic honour, and I just hope that I can live up to it, essentially. You're going to be great. You're going to be great. We're all behind you here, because this is something you've been working towards,

and also the training that you're about to begin. Is that next year? Is that the beginning of next year? Yes, in April next year. It's going to be intense, I imagine. Can you give us an insight? Yeah, yeah, it absolutely will be intense. It starts with basic training and gets more and more specific as you become assigned to a mission. It covers all sorts of things from classroom based activities on space law, astrophysics, engineering, to looking at the different systems on board the ISS, bringing everyone from, of course, different backgrounds within the astronaut corps to the same level in those

subjects, to much more fast pacedpaced exciting things one might say such as underwater training to simulate weightlessness and how to work in that environment survival training preparing for re-entry so you use underwater training to get ready for the zero gravity side of things yeah absolutely it's essentially the closest we can come to having a weightlessness environment on Earth. It's not identical because underwater you can become neutrally buoyant so you don't float and you don't sink, but you do still have an awareness of up and down because of the gravity in a way that you don't in space. But by spending time underwater in spacesuits with replicas of the space station

you can essentially practice the the maneuvers that you're going to need to perform up there and make sure that when the time comes you're you know it like the back of your hand do you like being underwater for long periods of time yes absolutely yeah i have a scuba diving license oh that's good that might not necessarily be the case for everyone who's gone forward for this because they've gone forward for different reasons and for their interests. So that's a relief to hear. Are you apprehensive about any of the training or any of this? Because it's not definite what mission you would be assigned to.

It's not definite how or where you would be if you go. But what's the bit that perhaps is quite unknown for you or maybe keeps you up at night I don't know if there is something it's interesting I wouldn't say I was apprehensive I think that actually we are surrounded by an enormous team who really do support us in every aspect of our training and preparation but of course what we're trying now is is very is very new of course the ISS and the experiments there will continue for several more years, but we're really looking to a more prolonged presence or spending longer periods of time on the moon and how that's going to be possible, whether we can use resources there, how might we build a base? And these sorts of things are certainly yeah the most unknown and uh yeah very interesting is there something that you would be extremely excited about of all the things you could get to do um i think that the the lunar exploration that we're working towards of course

is building upon the apollo missions but by really really understanding how long we can spend on the moon, how we can stay there safely using those resources without replenishment, or perhaps traveling to and from the surface between the gateway that the new station will have in lunar, in the vicinity of the moon, is something that I personally would really love to be involved with. So I could be talking to the first woman to walk on the moon. Oh, well, I think that the first woman to walk on the moon will be an American woman. I think NASA will certainly be in this decade. And that will be fantastic, of course.

And then we certainly have some European missions on the Artemis program. I'm just I'm just getting ambitious here. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'm getting excited for you. I mean, have you thought about what you might say or do if you do get that chance? You've got to have a good quote ready, haven't you? Neil Armstrong set the bar pretty high. Yes, absolutely. I mean, I do wonder how long it took him to think about that because it was incredible. And you talked a little bit about the pressure of firsts. Well, that's a great example of it. Yes. OK, well, we'll leave you some time for that. Have you got something you want to take with you, you know, like a mascot or have you got a food, a favourite food?

Or what are you allowed to maybe take that's kind of creature comforts? It's a great question. And actually, I was reflecting on this, and I do have a great space penguin, who I think would love a trip. I look forward to seeing a penguin in space. That was Dr Rosemary Coogan. Now, the next guest is an unusual combination. As a pioneer of both British policing and television. Jackie

Moulton joined the police force in Leicestershire in the 1970s and quickly rose through the ranks of a male-dominated police force, becoming one of only three female detective chief inspectors in the Metropolitan Police. All this despite facing intense bullying and harassment from many of her colleagues as both an openly gay woman and a whistleblower against police corruption, which she's spoken about before. She's perhaps best known for being the real-life inspiration behind DCI Jane Tennyson, the character from Prime Suspect, for which Jackie is a script consultant. On top of all of this success, she's got two master's degrees,

an honorary doctorate, and this year penned a memoir. And yet, she says she still feels ashamed of failing her 11 plus entrance exam to grammar school. She's joined a campaign that launched on Thursday, Time's Up for the Test, which is calling for the 11 plus to be abolished. Well, Emma spoke to her earlier this week and began by asking whether those close to her had passed the exam. My brother and my sister both passed and they went to the top grammar schools in Leicester. My sister, especially, bright, she went to Wheatleyton Grammar

and my parents were so proud that these, their children had gone to the secondary modern school, sorry, to the grammar schools when it came to me. I took this envelope home and there was this kind of feeling of disappointment you know and yeah and I remember kind of hearing my parents say well what are we going to do with her type of thing and then my father decided that they were they were they were they could send me to a convent called Edmonton Hall in Leicester. It was Catholic playing and run by all the nuns.

I was Church of England. I just thought, I can't see how these nuns are going to play football and stuff. So I kind of just ticked this box randomly on purpose to fail it. But what it was, it is that shame you feel less than inadequate a sense of failure and a sense of failure has sat on my shoulder now you mentioned earlier on emma about you know did it do you good as well and and to be fair i i i had like a nemesis on one shoulder and my authentic self the driver on the other so it did it did that failure did drive me I've got to be really really honest about that but at the back of your head is this voice of

failing and stuff and the police offered me a scholarship to go to university for three years and um I turned it down I turned and I have huge regrets and I turned it down. I have huge regrets and I turned it down because I thought, if they pay me for three years to go to university and I bailed the damn thing, you know, so I thought, all right, I won't put myself through that. Do you think that was linked to failing the 11th grade? Yes. Oh, no, no, definitely, definitely, definitely linked.

Definitely linked, yeah. So a fear of failure was instilled very early on. Yes, fear of failure. And you would say that had erred on the unhealthy side rather than some of what was taught about failure, which is it can make you think perhaps I'm going to do something in a different way and spur you on to feel better about the next one if you then succeed.

No, the opposite, absolutely. And I think we also have to put this in context. So it was 1962 and the kids, you know, parents and the success, you know, post-war and all of that, hugely, hugely important, hugely. And the pride that parents had that their child, in fact, my mum used to take my sister shopping on a Saturday and sometimes make her wear the uniform. Oh, really? Yes, she did. She did. She was so proud that my sister had gone to Wigston Grammar School. You see, my sister, she wanted to go to a smaller school called Collegiate or Equi-Grammar.

And my mum said, no, no, you've got to go to Wiggy. You've got to go to Wiggiston. And of course, you know, it didn't do her any good either, going to that grammar school, because she would have fared better in a smaller school. It's interesting. There's a message right at the top that's come in from one of our listeners saying, my sister's shame of failing the 11 plus

led her to being unable to connect with her two siblings that did pass it. Her sense of failure stays with her still today, to connect with her two siblings that did pass it. Her sense of failure stays with her still today, despite being in her 80s, which is really powerful to hear as well. Very, very powerful. So that was why I did go to university much later on. And, you know, you shouldn't have external validation. I know that in order to feel better about yourself. But that was an external validation.

It was hugely important to me, Emma, hugely important. Looking at this, this campaign, time's up for the test. There is cross-party, politically, support for this. The likes of the Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, is one of the other supporters. The former Director General of the BBC, Greg Dyke is also another name. What do you think about the reasons for getting rid of it, though? One of the reasons that I can only kind of relate to myself is that how do you define a child's future at 11?

That's very, very young. And so my headmaster, very insightful man, Mr Gill, he used to talk about late developers. And he said the 11 plus system had no manoeuvre for people that were late developers, you know, maybe at 13 or something. And this defining age was one which was significant as to where you sat in society. And, you know, still today, still today,

there are people that proudly, and quite right proudly, but I mean, you know, for themselves, there's this, well, I passed 11 plus. You know, and they... It's a thing that they can still say. Yes, I mean... For the people that failed it, it's one thing, like that lady that wrote in about shame.

But equally, it's a thing to brag about as well, isn't it? And then that's... Well, I passed mine, so I'm a bit brighter. It's something that... I mean, there is also... There's a study by UCL's Institute for Education which found that exams are particularly important for girls because success in them relieves that feeling of imposter syndrome Institute for Education, which found that exams are particularly important for girls because

success in them relieves that feeling of imposter syndrome that has been shown to be prevalent in girls moving to higher education. We also know girls statistically do far better, sorry again, Jackie, in the 11 plus than boys. I'm not trying to rub this in. But if you look at that, I mean, there's a much bigger debate about grammar schools. And we know from the hustings just a few weeks ago, a few months ago now for the new prime minister, both Rishi Sunak and Liz Truss talked about bringing back grammar schools, but almost putting that to a side because you don't necessarily have to keep going with the 11 plus. And I know it's different in different parts of the UK.

But what do you make of that, that exams can be important specifically for girls? Well, as you said about the imposter syndrome, that if it is something that they're for that kind of self-esteem, but the system is bigger than that, isn't it? That white girls should have imposter system, not just because of an exam, but across the board, why they feel significantly less than or different. That's, you know, the 11 plus is just one aspect of it, surely, is it not? That was Jackie Moulton. Well, we asked the Department of Education for a statement, which they didn't provide, but they did say that the arrangements for selecting pupils by ability are for the admission authorities of selective schools to decide. For a local authority school, this will be the local authority or governing body and for an academy, the Academy Trust.

Still to come on the programme, we find out why the colour beige is taking over children's fashion and toys. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast it's free on the bbc sound site now are you finding it impossible to get a decent job because you can only work part-time hours well new research by timewise the social enterprise and flexible working experts shows there are around 620 000 people in the uk currently looking for part-time work the majority of them women yet an analysis of 6 million job ad000 people in the UK currently looking for part-time work, the majority of them women. Yet

an analysis of 6 million job adverts posted in the UK this year show just 12% offered part-time hours and most of those were low-paid roles. To discuss this research, Emma was joined in the studio by the co-founder of TimeWise, Emma Stewart MBE, who is also on the government's independent task force on flexible working, and Charlene Manhurts, who'd been desperately looking for part-time work as the main earner in her house. Emma began by asking Emma Stewart why businesses aren't offering part-time work when it's so in demand.

Sadly, a lot of it is inertia. They think candidates, job seekers, will ask, but we know from our research that actually women in particular don't because they don't want to risk not getting the job. We also know that many businesses want to meet people before they will consider offering flexible working. But the risk in the tight labour market that we've got at the moment is you're not even going to get to see somebody in an interview unless you say so.

And that's the message we are putting out to businesses, which is just try, put a message on your job on your job ad to say that you're open to flexible working and also support your managers which is the third reason to know how to have that conversation because if someone says I'd like to do three days not five that means you've got to redesign the job. There is a difference between wanting to work part-time and needing to work part-time isn't there? There is. And we know that there are millions of people in the UK who need to work part-time because they've got caring responsibilities. It affects women in particular, as we know, but also people who have health issues,

people who are older, people who have disabilities. And the risk is we've seen about half a million people leave the labour market in the last couple of years as a result of the pandemic for health reasons and because they are older. They could be really tempted back if we could create better quality part time jobs for them to be able to apply for. Jessica, which seems rare from what you've just said, has emailed to say, Hi Emma, I work part time and this is my third part-time post which was advertised as a full-time vacancy if I see a post that appeals to me I ring up and I ask if they would consider part-time or job share this way I gauge whether I like the sound of the employer and the role and I also come across confidently and impress the employer this way I found employers always willing to consider part-time as they want to employ me.

And I think that's absolutely fantastic. And I think she's doing exactly the right thing. But there are an awful lot of people who still don't feel for lots of reasons that they have either the confidence or the leverage to be able to ask. And we know that lots of employers don't advertise salaries at the moment. If you're not advertising a salary and you're not talking about flexibility, then you've got to be bold in making the request to consider it and it's just another barrier that to be honest shouldn't necessarily be the responsibility of the job seeker it actually if an employer and that's what you're talking the irony is that a lot of these employers exactly the irony is a lot of these employers are absolutely open to having that conversation but unless they advertise it and put that out there, they are going to miss out on a lot of candidates who will still feel nervous about bringing it up.

Charlene, good morning. Good morning. Let me bring you into this. Your circumstances, I understand, you run your own business offering career coaching to help clients. But you need to find part time work around that. Yes, I run a marketing and coaching consultancy. And in between contracts, there's often times where, you know, you've either got late-paying clients or slow-paying clients,

and you're just in between contracts. I wanted something that would enable me to have stability, to be able to look after my family when those times hit. So because you do have caring duties, and I understand also you're in recovery yourself, health-wise. Yes, I had multiple myeloma. I was diagnosed in 2017, and I was, at the time, was in a full-time job.

When I found out, I literally left work and came back again working for myself. And the stress on you financially at the moment, because I understand, how is it going, the search at the moment? Oh, no, I found a job now. And, you know, I have been looking since June. And, you know, I look at my CV and I think, oh, actually, I've done quite a lot.

I'm quite proud of what I've done. And I'm thinking, hang on a minute, why can't I find a role that can suit this? I've got great experience. And, you know I run my own business I use affiliates to who work on a number of different ways of working different working patterns and it works well for me as a small business if I can do it as a small business why aren't larger businesses looking at how they can change working operations to suit the labour

market as it is right now. And with the role that you found, it's great that you've got some good news, but how does that work? How many hours are you doing? How does it fit around? I think it's helpful for people to hear. Yeah, no, that's fine.

It's up to 16 hours a week and I can do the hours whenever I want. And they've just been really open from the start because in the job interview, I did allude to the fact that I have health issues and they've just been really open from the start because in the job interview i did allude to the fact that i have had health issues and they were fine with that i think as emma was saying it's very difficult when you're looking for a role and you might be time pressure you might be financially pressured to then have the confidence to ask can you change the role for me

and i think if employers are better able to present opportunities with that up front, then people will feel comfortable in asking. What was it like, though, in terms of trying to find this role? How was the effect on you financially, the stress, the actual search for it? Because a lot of people getting in touch about how hard it is. It's really hard. It's really hard because you keep putting your CV out there, talking to people. I got quite lots of emails actually asking, oh, yes, we've got this role.

It really looks like it would suit your skills. When I asked, oh, and you do realise I'm working, I would like a part-time role, I didn't even get any response back to say, no, that's fine, we'll look for something else. Most recruiters were not really interested in supporting, you know, different ways of working. So as Emma's saying, it's really crucial that employers

are having those discussions with recruiters. What would you say, Emma, to bring you back, and Charlene, thank you for that, to perhaps those smaller businesses and those business owners who are listening, thinking, you know, I can't make this work, there are financial implications for me? So I'd say a few things. I'd say you'll have more people applying for the job. You will have more loyal people when you recruit them. They will stay with you for longer. And actually, we know from a lot of the analysis, we've done the return on investment in terms of reduced sickness, absence, you've got happier, healthy people. So there's absolute long term gain. In terms of the short term, I mean, we are heading into,

we are in recession, that we often get lots of small businesses come to us and in fact use our job site because sometimes they can't always afford five days a week. So actually three days a week is fantastic. You can have a really, really brilliant skilled woman or man who wants, like Charlene, just to be able to fit work around life and health and everything else and will give you absolutely the utmost for that time and it's not necessarily going to cost you five days so it's about being creative and also it's

about if you advertise this having the conversation with the person who's sitting opposite in the interview because often they're the best person to be able to explain to you how they can make it work as well. That was Emma Stewart, MBE and Charlene Manhurts. And we have a statement from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. The government is committed to supporting individuals and businesses to work flexibly, ensuring employees can better balance their work and home life with more input into when, where and how they work. That's why we're backing the Employment Relations Bill, giving employees across the country better access to flexible working. And we've also recently consulted on making the right to request

flexible working a day one right for all employees. Now, one colour has been taking over children's clothes and nurseries recently on social media. Beige. The fashion for muted clothes and toys caught the eye of writer and librarian Hayley Desroches. She was surprised at how miserable the children looked in the marketing images for the mushroom-hued stacking cups, sludgy Amish pinafores and oatmeal bonnets and their hefty price tags. She started creating videos, skewering the trend by pretending to be the legendary sombre German filmmaker Werner Herzog

and giving the outfits and toys more fitting names like The Locusts Are Coming and In This Life The Sorrows Can Run Deeper Than The Oceans. The videos have quite rightly since gone viral with over 9.4 million likes. So what is it about this sad beige trend that has struck a chord with so many? To find out, I spoke to Hayley DeRosh and journalist Martha Alexander, who's resigned herself to a multicoloured life with her six-year-old daughter. I began by asking Hayley why she coined the phrase sad beige clothes for sad beige children. Honestly, it happened in a matter of maybe 10 minutes. I was just shopping for little stacking cups, as you mentioned,

and I came across some that were very pale in nature. And what really struck me was not that the toys were beige, but that the marketing that went with them was so sombre and serious that the children looked like they had just like put down their Marcel Proust or something and like, oh, I should pick up the stacking cups now, mama. And it just made me laugh because the marketing was so different from what I think people traditionally think of children's marketing. You know, it's bright, happy, cheerful. And so immediately the first thing that my comedian brain went to was what's the most bleak thing that could describe this?

And of course, it's Werner Herzog. But yeah, as a comedian, I just found it to be very funny. And we're not just talking about normal leggings and kids clothes. These are sort of bonnets and overalls, outfits you'd expect Tiny Tim in A Christmas Carol to be wearing, but just really expensive. Yes, there was one particular one that just tickled me. It was a pair of velvet flare pants and the child photographed was in like a sheep field. So I just, it does not make sense to me, the marketing for these things, both the price tag. I mean, obviously, some of these are really ethically produced, and I think that's wonderful.

But the juxtaposition of the price tag and looking like a Dickensian orphan or someone who is working in the farming industry, these are not clothes that would ever be actually worn by those people for those particular activities. And so it's just very funny to me that in a way, because these things are for the upper class who can afford them, that it's, I don't want to say it's poverty cosplay. Although some people have definitely termed it that in my comments, but I do think that there's a little bit of mismatch there. It's very funny. It is and you make it absolutely hilarious. Martha, I'm going to bring you in. You can't look at TikTok or Instagram without seeing these perfectly tidy beige nursery and the perfectly tidy matching beige children. Why is the beige aesthetic so appealing to millennial mums? Because, you know, we've heard there Hayley

talking about the marketing. Who are they marketing at? People who want this. I think so, yes. I think it is certainly for middle-class mums and dads. It's also, you know, we live nowadays in a world where everything is or needs to be very Instagrammable. We're always camera ready. And so our homes have become more like show homes really for the gram often more than livable spaces I mean I speak for other people that's not the case for me. So let's talk about you then is this about I guess is this about wanting your children to

fit the sort of perfect aesthetic that you want in your own life the children should match your look yes that's certainly the case from my research and the people that I've spoke to who readily admit that they are sad beige parents they don't want to compromise on aesthetics they don't want their house to be engulfed in oceans of sequins and neon slime and you know polyester ball gowns and all of that stuff they don't want it they want scandi sparse minimalism here's the question though to those your friends who are able to do that are they just hiding all the the sequins and the polyester in a box when you turn up? No, they have a box and it will be a sisal box maybe or a wooden antique box. And it will have lots of very tasteful toys inside it.

And it will be in their room. I mean, I don't know how people achieve this. Some people admit that it's because they've got very, very small children who haven't yet grasped that they've got a choice. But, you know, I mean, I failed almost immediately. What happens when you, did you try? Oh, yeah. I mean, when I was pregnant, I just thought I was going to live in a Scandinavian utopia.

I was just convinced. And I thought, I'm not going to have any of this plastic rubbish I'm going to be so tasteful and then you know it went downhill with the jumperoo I think well it's the question what happens Hayley if you let your children choose for themselves it definitely wouldn't end up in a beige ensemble would they I don't I believe another person put it best I don't think beige is any child's wear them. They're not hyper sexualized. They're just basic run around, get on, go, you know, clothes. You know, that's no bad thing.

No, not at all. And I think it's wonderful if children have clothes that they can get dirty and play in. I think that's wonderful. And to that, it doesn't really matter what color they are. Ultimately, you know, any child can wear anything, really. Yeah. But then often these clothes are also being sold as an ethically good option. They're not just tapping into kind of the middle class millennium mum. Well, they are, absolutely, because they're tapping into the other side of that, which is this is going to be a better choice for you than having lots of plastic waste. Absolutely. And to that, you know, I think it's really great, especially with the clothing that are ethically made. And I love the fact that I can go onto these websites and find, you know, where they're made and how they're sourced. I do think it's interesting that some of the toys that I come across that come in these shades are not necessarily

any more eco-friendly than their counterparts. There was one particular set of sacking cups that looked very recycled. They had that aesthetic, but when you actually looked at what they were made of, it was exactly the same as the other materials. So I do think it's important not to fall sway to the greenwashing that can happen where you think that these colors are eco-friendly, but they're really not. And surely, Martha, it's much better for the environment. Have your children in mismatched hand-me-downs? I think so. I think the, you know, sustainability is not buying. Buying stuff is, by its very nature, it's not sustainable. Hayley, what you've done is so funny. And I feel like maybe for some mums,

you can breathe a sigh of relief watching Hayley's Instagram videos. What do you think, Martha? Because she's just skewered it. Oh, absolutely. She has nailed it. I howled with laughter. I digested her whole account,

you know, the first morning that I saw it and I think it does make people feel better I know that I have had emails from from women saying that they feel seen and they feel that they are less sort of ashamed about the kind of mess and chaos and mismatch. And that actually, you know, it isn't all about being perfect. And there's more to life than being beige and Instagrammable. That was Hayley DeRosh and Martha Alexander. That's all from me. Go forth, be colourful, ditch the beige. Thanks for listening. Do join Emma from Monday at 10. The deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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