Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Recognition for first England women's football team, Harriet Harman MP & the poet Lady Unchained

Episode Date: August 10, 2022

In a report published on Friday, the Joint Committee on Human Rights says the Government bears ultimate responsibility for the pain and suffering caused by public institutions and state employees that railroaded mothers in the 1950s, 60s and 70s into unwanted adoptions in England and Wales. Anita Rani speaks to Harriet Harman MP, who is Chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights and Veronica Smith, founder member of the Movement for an Adoption Apology. TikTok has become one of the most popular social media apps in the world. We hear from author and content creator Tova Leigh who contacted us to say she has noticed more and more disturbing content on the site that encourages violence against women and girls, and BBC Technology reporter Shiona McCallum.The first international England Women’s football match was in November 1972. 50 years on, we speak to Woman’s Hour listener and reserve goalkeeper for the England team, Sue Whyatt who says the team are still waiting for their 'caps; and we hear from the honorary secretary of the Women’s Football Association, Patricia Gregory who co-organised that match.Jersey has elected its first ever female Chief Minister. In elections last month, more women won seats in Jersey’s States Assembly than ever before. Emma Barnett speaks to Kristina Moore, a former journalist and TV presenter, to find out how her first few weeks in office are going.From picking up the pen to survive in prison and since her release, Lady Unchained has made it her mission to become an advocate for life after prison. She is a poet, performer, and award winning broadcaster. We speak to her as she releases her debut poetry book: Behind Bars: On punishment, prison & release.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, your place to listen to a carefully curated selection of the standout moments from the week just gone. On today's programme, an estimated 185,000 children in England and Wales were adopted in less than 30 years from 1949 right up to 1976. Many were unwanted adoptions.

We hear from the MP Harriet Harman on why she's calling for a formal apology from the government, and we speak to an unmarried mother who was forced to give up her baby in the 1960s. Football and the Women's Euros. A trip down memory lane, a look back at the first ever England women's match 50 years ago and why the class of 72 still haven't received their caps. Why one woman contacted us saying she's noticed more and more disturbing content on TikTok encouraging and featuring violence against women and girls, the new and first female leader of Jersey on why we're seeing more women get elected to their state's assembly than ever before, and last but not least, a live performance from the poet and performer Lady Unchained

and why she picked up the pen in prison. But first, an estimated 185,000 children in England and Wales were adopted in less than 30 years, from 1949 up to 1976. Many were unwanted adoptions. Now the MP Harriet Harman is calling for a formal apology to be issued by the government to the thousands of unmarried mothers who had their babies taken for adoption in the 50s, 60s and 70s. In a report published yesterday, the Joint Committee on Human Rights

says the government bears ultimate responsibility for the pain and suffering caused by public institutions and state employees that railroaded mothers into those unwanted adoptions. Harriet Harmon, MP, is chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights and Veronica Smith is the founder member of the Movement for an Adoption Apology. I started by asking Harriet what was accepted and expected of young women at the time. It was an absolute cruelty. It was brutal and it was happening in plain sight.

You can hardly, the recognition of the importance of the bond between mother and child has been recognized down the centuries and yet for these women whose only crime was to not be married their their punishment was to have the baby taken away and then told they'd shamed their family and that they've got to keep it secret and just get on with their lives and of course they couldn't and they never did and And I think the very least that could happen is the government should do an apology and also support them in dealing with what has been a lifetime of trauma.

Being 71 myself, I can remember that time very clearly. There was no sex education. There was virtually no contraception. There was virtually no abortion. If a girl got pregnant, the best she could do was to marry the father. But if he denied he was the father or he was already married, it was absolute terror. The terror that we lived with of getting pregnant and the shame you would bring on your family and it would be the worst thing. And therefore the baby must be taken away.

And these women were taken, moved out of their families into mother and baby homes so that the neighbours couldn't see the growing bulge. And then they were supposed to come back to their neighbourhood as if nothing had happened and get on with their lives. And it was supposedly the best for them. And it's just it's a terrible thing in a way. I'm so admiring of all the women who've come forward and demanded an apology because it's so painful for them still. And for their children who were told they'd given their baby away and when society's attitude changed rightly to being more progressive about lone parents then they were judged for having supposedly given their babies away which they hadn't so i think it's just a terrible episode to think that just in this country just a few ago, hundreds of thousands of women had their babies taken from them at 10 weeks old. How many mothers are we talking about? At least 185,000, but probably many more because a lot of these adoptions were done just almost secretly.

And you took evidence not just from the mothers, but also the children who were adopted. Why was it important to speak to them as well? Because the children, some of them were told that their mothers just didn't want them. And that gave them a great sense of sadness. Others wanted to find their mothers, but were not able to because the tracing system isn't proper. You know, the birth, the adoption certificate bears no relationship to the birth certificate. Their names were changed. Some of them were brought up in loving, caring, functional families and others were brought up in absolutely terrible families. They don't know their medical history. You go to any medical appointment. You're asked if you've got any heart disease in any specific sort of cancer in the family.

They don't know their identities were ripped away from them. And I think one of the most telling things was when one of the mothers said, I asked her when she was giving evidence to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, did you go on to have any other children? And she said, I didn't want children. I only wanted him. It's absolutely heartbreaking. I'm going to bring in Veronica, who actually gave evidence to hear from Veronica and hear your story. You got pregnant, Veronica, back in 1965. You were 24 years old. So what happened to you? You weren't a teenager, 24, working as a nurse. Tell me your story. I was working away from home at Butlin's Holiday Camp and fell in love with a very handsome red coat and got pregnant.

I then told my elder sister and my mother, and the wheels started in motion. We went to an adoption agency, and the story was, you will leave your job, you will go into a Catholic hostel in South London for a number of months. You will then have your baby and you'll come home as if nothing's happened. Can I take you back to that day where you had to talk to your mum and your sister about it? What were the feelings that you were going through? Were you aware that this is what might happen or did you think that they might be more sympathetic just no I mean in those days um no I didn't have a phone I had to write a letter to tell them and um I just asked for help basically and that was that was the help they got, got me.

How pressurised were you into giving up? Very, very. I was told it would kill my father, which I very much doubt. He was just a lovely man. I think he would have taken it. We lived in a big house. They could have accommodated me and the baby. Still very painful to talk about it.

Yeah. And then you had to return to work? I had to find a job. I came home. I only saw my daughter for a week and then went home and had to find a job, of course, yeah. And what was that experience like,

having to go away from your family, give birth? Luckily, I can't remember a lot of it, thank goodness. I do remember, I did have antenatal care. They made sure we got that. The experience in the hospital wasn't pleasant. A lot of mothers talk about scrubbing floors and domestic work even up to when you almost took delivery time and I felt very alone, very alone Were you ever able to talk to anybody about it?

Could you tell anybody about talk to anybody about it? Could you tell anybody about what you'd been through? I could never tell my mother, and we were estranged for five years before she died. I eventually started talking about it, but it took a breakdown in the early 90s for me to sort of get everything tumbling out of my head that I hadn't talked about for so many years. 25 years later. Were you able to trace your daughter, Veronica? Yes, I did trace her. And she found out that she lived in Canada.

I used an intermediary to make contact. And she really wasn't ready at that time she was 25 but when when she had a baby herself then she did contact me to tell me now and and we finally met in 2004 and how how was that? Fantastic, fantastic. She came to our house with a little baby and a toddler then. And it was lovely. We went to the beach and just had a lovely day. And then in 2010, you set up the movement Calling for an Apology. Yes, I'd followed what was going on in Australia.

State by state, they they did their own apologies. And once they'd done all that, we started our movement. What would an apology from the government mean to you? Oh, just recognition of what happened was so wrong, so wrong. All those years of people doing this practice and nobody seemed to think it was right, wrong rather. Nobody. And you can hear the pain in your voice still to this day, Veronica.

Hmm. So this, I'm sure we'll get harriet i don't think harriet will rest until we get an apology and we really thank her for supporting us and we hope that the other recommendations from the report will be carried out as well i mean veronica thank you for for sharing that story with us here on Women's Day. I know it can't be easy to talk about it. Lots of women, Harriet, getting in touch to share their own experiences. You know, you've really sparked something in our listeners.

Moira's saying, my comment is that the pressure on young girls and women to have their children adopted largely came mainly from their parents. Oh, this is interesting. She says the government was not involved additional pressure came from the church largely the roman catholic church their parents put pressure on the girls to give up their children not the government and government apology is meaningless what would you say to moira harriet well i think that there was no support for, there was no government support financially for women who weren't married to keep their children. And actually, the Roman Catholic Church has apologised. And I think that we just need an official, what the apology says is the government is saying to these women, you were not wrongful people. You hadn't done anything wrong,

but what was done to you was wrong. What happened to you was wrong. And the state was involved because the state was obviously in charge of the whole adoption process and recognising that they've suffered over the years. So I think that's why an apology is important because for decades they've been told

they did something wrong by getting pregnant and by supposedly giving away their baby and also the decades of secrecy one woman said to us that her she got married she had children her husband was so ashamed that she'd had a baby before they met that he made her promise never to tell their children that they had an older sibling. So she wasn't able to tell her children until he died, when her children were in their 60s. And then after he died, she was able to tell them, you've got an older brother. And the years of secrecy imposed with the shame, I think a government apology will say, you weren't wrong, the system was wrong,

it would never happen now, and that surely should make us recognise it shouldn't have happened then. And the brutality and the pain of the separation of the mother and the child. Well, we have had a message from a government spokesperson who said, and this is what they've said, we have the deepest sympathy to all those affected

by historic forced adoption. Whilst we cannot undo the past we have strengthened our legislation and practice to be built on empathy from nhs maternity services caring for vulnerable women and babies to our work transforming the adoption process and care system to help children settle into stable homes there is health help available to those affected by past adoption practices including with tracing their birth children. And the church have apologised. I really do urge the government to apologise. And a government apology like they've done in Australia is really meaningful and important.

And I've spoken to the new Secretary of State for Education, who's responsible for children and adoption, who's James Cleverley, and urged him to do this. It means a lot to those women. It will put the record straight that they didn't do anything wrong and that they were brutally treated. And I think it's important and I really hope they'll do that. You know, sometimes in government you can't do anything, but sometimes you can just do a bit of good. And I think this is one of those occasions where really they should understand that it is their job now. And the government has apologised for all sorts of things in the past that happened that were awful, that have meant a lot to those who suffered as a result.

And this is one of those occasions. But Harriet, these sort of deeply sexist attitudes still exist in society, don't they? Women are held, as we talk about a lot on this programme, to a different standard in every aspect of their lives. It's something, you know, how do we shift that mindset? Well, I think the shame was on the woman, not on the man. There was no sense of a shame of a man for fathering a child out of wedlock who was regarded as a bit of a lad, but no shame.

And the woman, the girl bore entirely the responsibility. And I think in a way, the fact that all the systems were headed by men who could not seemingly get their head round how awful the separation of a mother and a child in this way was, I think is very telling. I can't imagine if public policy was shaped equally by women and men that this would have happened. And I think a lot has changed today. A lot of progress has been made. But I think, you know, they call it historic adoption sometimes. And I think that's the wrong word, because these mothers are still the mothers of those children. There's nothing historic about it. It wasn't an event.

Once they've had that child, they're the mother of that child for the rest of those children. There's nothing historic about it. It wasn't an event. Once they've had that child, they're the mother of that child for the rest of their lives. And therefore, I think that, you know, the new man in charge of this policy in government, I think he should recognise that. I just want to bring Veronica back in on this because Harriet made an interesting point there,

didn't she? I mean, we know this, it's the burden of shame is on on the woman what happened to the to this red coat that you fell in love with the the father of your daughter um well I traced him as well and um he doesn't really want to be involved what happened at the time did he? Did he know what you were going through? Not really. Not really. Veronica Smith, founder member of the Movement for an Adoption Apology, and Harriet Harman, MP, chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. Now, last week, as the women's Euros kicked off, we asked you whether you'll be watching.

Lots of you got in touch, including one listener called Sue, who was the reserve goalkeeper for the first ever England women's football team 50 years ago. She said, as a member of the very first England women's football team in 1972, I'm blown away by how far the game has come. Just wondering if you're aware that although our contribution has recently started to be recognised, those of us who played under the WFA, Women's Football Association, because the FA would not recognise us, have still not been awarded official caps.

The Scottish team who played in that first match have been awarded caps by the Scottish FA. So we got in touch with the FA, and they said, in line with the 50th anniversary of the England women's team in November 2022, the FA are working on a project to recognise and celebrate all former internationals. Well, to hear their response to that on Monday's

show, Emma was joined by Sue Wyatt, who, as I said, was the 1972 reserve goalkeeper for the England's women's football team, and Patricia Gregory, who was the Honourable Secretary of the Women's Football Association, co-organising the first international women's match back in November 1972. Emma started by asking Sue what she made of that response from the FA. Well, it's pretty typical really. They'll probably send us out a last minute email to lots of people who are well over 70 asking us to travel down to London at our own expense and stay there. And a lot won't go because it's always last minute. It always seems that they can't give us any sort of pre-warning

that something like this is going to happen. We were allowed to go to Wembley and walk around the edge of the Wembley pitch as the supposed legends of England ladies, England women. We did ask at the time to go onto the pitch. We were refused because they said only players go on the pitch. Two weeks later, the England men legends

were all paraded onto the pitch in front of the crowd. It's happened like this every time. It's very different. I'm just thinking, Sue, about Wimbledon as well this week. You know, we've seen the legends of both sexes be allowed, as it were, to go on to centre court and mark the moment and the history of tennis, but not the same in football, you're saying? Correct. And also, you were talking about apologies before.

The FA have never apologised to all us women who kept, and all the people that kept me playing football. All that time when we were banned from the official pitches, they did their utmost to squash the game. And we kept going. And a lot more women than me. I did very little for the cause, I have to say. And also, just to set the record straight,

Sue Bucket was the very first female goalkeeper. I was the reserve. There was a squad of 15. I was the reserve. I got my cap the following year. Got it. But they're homemade caps done on somebody's machine at home. I wouldn't part with it for the world. I bet you wouldn't. But can I just bring in, let me bring in Patricia at this point, because before we get into the cap element, although I could talk to Sue about all elements of what she's just raised and much more.

What are caps for those who don't know? Why do they matter, Patricia? Well, you see many sports, I mean cricket, they've got caps. The cap, I don't know the original story, but you used to at one point, I believe in football, get the choice between a fee or a payment and a cap. So it's an actual cap that you get given? It's an actual cap like a schoolboy's cap.

We, the Women's FA, which no longer exists because we passed everything over to the FA in 1993, back in 1972 when we formed the England team, we didn't have the funds to buy the caps and so Flo Bilton, a stalwart of those early days, the England team, we didn't have the funds to buy the caps. And so Flo Bilton, a stall of those early days, she offered to make them. And as Sue says, they are greatly treasured by the girls.

We couldn't, Flo didn't have any help. So we only used to give the girls one cap when they played their debut match. Right. And that's how you kind of fudge it and make it work. Well, if they qualified and played for 10 times, when they finally finished, we gave them a shield. I have seen these shields. They're very nice, wooden shield on which was a small other shield, a metal shield, giving the matches that they performed in. So that's how things were marked when there was still a women's FA? Because in 1972, the Football Association recognised the women's FA as the sole governing body of women's football in this country at the present time. What do you make of the FA's response to our inquiry off the back of Sue's message?

Well, I think it's fair. They have tried. The current Euros, every city has got an exhibition. And many of the girls, and I call them girls even though their grandmothers like Sue, they have contributed to videos and written stuff that's appearing in these exhibitions. But they didn't really answer the question, did they? Well, what they're saying is that through a vast investment from the lottery heritage fund yes they are working on how they will commemorate the 50th anniversary of that first international which is in the autumn but i mean so all you seem to want is a cap that's right and i'm and really i want the caps for those girls who played in that

first team i'm at a i'm in a special position the fact i didn't play in that first team. I'm at a special position in the fact I didn't play in that first match. I was a reserve. I want those girls who went on to coach and play for England for a long time, they should be getting a cap each, even if it's just for that very first match, an official FA cap. I mean, in the scheme of the cost and the scope of the FA and the money that's swilling around football, it doesn't sound like a lot. I mean, forgive me if I'm speaking out of turn. No, I totally agree with you. How can they not just give us all a cap for those games we played under the WFA?

We should get someone from the very top of the FA on to see if we can answer this. We have asked the question, but maybe we should double down on our invitation. My hit rate this morning is not great. You can hear on who's been invited and who's actually showing up to answer some of these questions. But I'm extremely grateful that you're both here. Sue, I love the fact you're also... How old are you now, if you don't mind me asking? I'm 66 now. Five grandchildren, yes. Still a girl, which is great,

in terms of how we talk about football then. How are you enjoying the Euros so far? Oh, when Beth Mead scored that goal, oh, that was hysterical. It was just brilliant. And the standard of football now, those girls are wonderful. And all the teams from all the...

So I can only just Western look against Norway and go Lionesses. They're brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. It must be an amazing thing to watch. I bet it's quite emotional at times as well, Sue. It is very emotional. Yes, yes.

It's a shame we didn't have those same chances, but I'm glad they've got them now. And as I say, brilliant. Just go for it, Lionesses. Let's bring that cup home. Yeah, well, I think, you know, we all have a gratitude to you and your fellow girls, if I could say that, for all you did. So thank you very much. And it's

lovely to have you on the programme. We'll keep going if we can with this, Sue. It's just some caps. Patricia, how are you finding this tournament? As Sue said, very emotional. I went to the opening game and I actually did have tears in my eyes when the national anthem was sung by 68,000 people because back in 1972, that first game up in Scotland, I'm not sure, I think it was maybe 200 people. But to think that we could have 68,000 paying people and so many of them young girls who can see a way forward.

They can see that there is even a career for them, just like their brothers, which absolutely in 1972, I wasn't of the standard of sue but it's it's amazing that it has come to this well huge thanks to you as well and all those who worked on so many people men and women who in the 60s when we formed the women's fa and into the 70s we worked very hard and all in a voluntary capacity i have to say say, it'll make you both laugh, hopefully. But I mean, it's not funny, but it's just a great message. You know, sometimes when someone just puts it better,

we've just received this message from someone on Twitter saying, for goodness sake, just give them a cap. Yes. Sue says yes. I think if you were to give all of the England players, and I think the FA is trying to find a way to mark all former England players, and that would be quite expensive. But even so, there must be out there in the audience a nice sponsor.

Patricia doing the detail here. Sue, I'll give you the final word. What did you want to say to that? I think the FA have plenty of money and they should just put their hands in their pockets and give us all a cap, for goodness sake. Give them a cap. Emma speaking to Sue Wyatt, the reserve goalkeeper for the 1972

England Women's Football Squad, and Patricia Gregory, the Honourable Secretary of the Women's Football Association. That all started from a little text. The Women's Hour production team are always across your messages. So keep texting, tweeting and emailing. The programme is all the better for it. We would love to hear your ideas and your stories. Now, TikTok has become one of the most popular social media apps in the world with more than one billion monthly active users. Young people in

particular love watching and creating videos and the content is often funny and upbeat. But one woman that contacted us says she's noticed more and more disturbing content on the site that encourages and features violence against women and girls. The author and content creator Tova Lee. On Tuesday, Emma spoke to Tova and the BBC's technology reporter Shona McCallum. Emma started by asking Tova why she's particularly concerned about TikTok, even though she's active on there and their mission, as they put it, is to inspire creativity and bring joy. Yes, and I agree.

It is a very fun app and it is aimed at young people and it allows a lot of creativity. You know, unlike other apps, you can edit your videos and obviously there's the music element and that's all fun. But I went down a really dark rabbit hole recently and just found really disturbing trends. One of which was a trend whereby young men were saying, imagine we went on a date and then, and then the rest of it was basically very, very elaborated descriptions of how they would murder their dates. And these were videos upon videos of guys, you know, describing really horrific, basically crimes and, you know, domestic abuse

and murder and everything. And it was presented as if it was comedy or funny, or I don't even know how it was presented. And, you know, some of these videos were really viral. You know, they had been watched by a lot of people. And, you know, I mean, I was mortified. And then I sort of shared it on my platform with my community because it's a lot of parents who follow me just to say, did you know this was happening? And I mean, they didn't know. I didn't know. They didn't know, which is what prompted this whole campaign of trying to get those videos off TikTok. And there's one in particular as well, which I remember you sharing, and I hadn't seen anything like it before, because, you know, a lot of people, you've got a

lot of followers, but a lot of people also really interacted with your video that you made of this, your reel. But it's a video of a boy ripping off girls' shirts. I should say that has already been removed from TikTok, but I know you were concerned that the same person had a video on his Instagram page. I'll come to the responses of the platforms in a moment. But it was very striking this. Tell us about that, the ripping. Yeah. So, you know, when you when you talk about these videos that are, I think, really disturbing on the platform, there was obviously the domestic violence and actual, you know, descriptions of murder. But there was also a lot of videos that were verging on whether it was soft porn or just rape culture in general, because it was really

aggressive. And basically what he was doing, he was just ripping tops off these young girls. And also those videos got reported by myself and other people in my community. And initially they weren't taken off the platform and there's a very uh we should say sorry if i just can but we should just say because we're describing in case people have never heard of this before it was like they're very fast videos aren't they so it's like a rip and then it cuts to another scene so no you you basically see girls standing in a line and they approach him one by one and he rips their tops off one after the other. So what do the girls or the women do? They're just they're like in shock.

That's it. Right. And that's what I mean. It cuts. It's not like a film. These are like these are quick videos where you sort of see something and you almost have to watch it again, giving them more views to to take it in. Yes. Yeah. And there were loads of those. So some of them were like in a swimming pool and they were all wearing bikinis and some of them were in the living room and there was different scenarios. Yeah. And that video, that specific account, which had over 10 million followers overall on TikTok, eventually got removed. But if I'm being honest, it only got removed after we got the press involved. When I tweeted at TikTok and reported the videos,

the feedback I received was that it didn't go against their community standards, which was very confusing to me because, again, those two trends separately, one of them was, I would say, went under the bracket of sexual content, nudity, you know, all of that. And then the second one was definitely violence. It was promoting violence. So I couldn't really understand why. And then after we got the press involved and they reached out to TikTok for a response, lo and behold, the specific creator was banned from TikTok. But like you said attacks or any threat of sexual violence on Instagram.

We removed the content raised by the BBC as soon as we were made aware of it. That's in response to that. And in terms of TikTok, a spokesperson said misogyny has no place on TikTok. Content that promotes hateful behaviour and violence against women goes against everything we stand for as a safe and inclusive platform and will be removed. Tova, stay with me for a moment because I want to bring in the BBC's technology reporter, Shona McCallum. Good morning, Shona. Morning. What Tova's describing there, you know, and I've done this, not just with content that's concerning about women,

all sorts of content and stuff sometimes that's, you know, even directed at me that's inappropriate, is that you take the time to file a report or whatever on these apps and then it's still there you know that that is an issue and and and tova's concern here is that you have to get the media involved not everybody can do that what would you say to that shona yeah and it's definitely a problem a widespread problem a lot of people have said you know they've used the mechanisms in place and unfortunately the content remains and you know to be honest it's hard to see that all of what we've described earlier wouldn't fall foul of the TikTok rules and the community standards should come in just

to kind of explain how that works and once something is flagged, the TikTok content goes through technology, which then shows them potential policy violations. If it's identified to violate the community standards, they say they automatically remove it, they flag it for additional reviews, then the team physically, people, not just bots, look at the content and then either remove the post, the account, you know, they can involve law enforcement if that's necessary. I think perhaps what's happened here is that this is not being picked up by the technology. And of course, until more and more people act on the accounts, then they won't. You know, they've got a lot of accounts that are being flagged and reported.

And I think the volume sometimes just doesn't get through to them. Yes. I mean, that's an excuse often used by these websites. And then the pushback on that would be the response on that would be hire more moderators, have some more humans and have a look across this. Do you think TikTok in particular, it is new, it's the newest kid in some ways on the block, not the newest, but one of. Do you think that app and Instagram do have a women problem? Well, there's certainly been a lot of complaints similar to what Tova has raised. And, you know, there are a lot of different content that TikTokers are saying that they're trying to safely remove.

You know, they say that they pride themselves on transparency, but one of the main complaints not only is that sometimes this content isn't removed, but this silence, we're saying we don't even have a response for them today, we don't even have someone on the programme, and that is very frustrating as well. It's very hard to get these people on the programmes, very, very hard indeed.

I used to work in your field as a technology reporter. To actually get somebody to interview you is difficult, isn't it? Absolutely. For communications companies, they're very hard to communicate with, even if you're reporting on them. Let me just bring you to the online safety bill. Back in Parliament today, it's at the report stage, and the online safety bill is legislating for hurt feelings. How much support does this bill have? Is it fit for purpose? Well one of the main reasons that the government would say that this bill will work is that they're going to be imposing tech firms with big expensive penalties

and they think that the threat of this will spring them into action. Now the legislation will be overseen by Ofcom, that's the UK's communications regulator. And they say that they're going to have the power to impose fines of up to 18 million pounds or 10 percent of the company's turnover, whichever is higher. So they also say as well that Ofcom will in extreme cases be able to block websites or apps or even take them down. So it's the threat of this action that they think that the tech companies might make changes, but the actual bottoming out of exactly what the tech companies will do kind of remains to be seen. And I think that that's the difficulty. This essentially, you know, is going to try and police the internet. And it puts such a duty of care onto the tech firms to, you know, remove all of this harmful content.

And they've broken it down and looked at all the different kind of bits of harmful content. You know, there's so much out there, cyber bullying, eating disorder content. You know, what is going to be policed by this bill is very hard. And actually, they've said that they'll criminalise cyber flashing, but they don't really go into violence against women in any great detail which campaigners say is a big, big miss. We will see what happens with that. Toveley, I'll just give you the final word on this.

I mean, you are, as I say, an avid user. You're very good at it, if I can put it like that with social media content. Does it put you off using the platform when you see this sort of stuff existing alongside yours? It doesn't put me off. For me, it was about this platform is for children. It's legal for from 13 year olds. And I did a survey on my page and the parents on my page with no judgment admitted that 20 percent of them with children under 13, their kids were already on the platform.

Emma speaking to the author and content creator Tova Lee and the BBC's technology reporter Shona McKellum. Now let's head to the Channel Islands, where Jersey has recently elected its first female leader, the chief minister, which is Jersey's equivalent of the prime minister. The island forms part of the British Isles, but is not classed as being part of the UK. The island is self-governing but the Queen is their head of state. Just over 100,000 people live on Jersey and their new leader is former journalist Christina Moore.

Her appointment comes as the island saw more women get elected to Jersey's State Assembly than ever before. 43% of the state's members, the equivalent of MPs, are now women, up from 27%. On Thursday, Emma spoke to Christina and started by asking her why she wanted to do it, why she wanted to lead. Well, much like the work of journalism, politics is really about people. My career has always been about people. And the ultimate challenge really is to be able to lead a group of people who get to direct the future of a small island nation, which is an incredible honour. And so when that opportunity arrived, there was no reason to not

pursue it, really. It's a historic moment whenever anything like this happens to be the first woman in a job. But in particular, Jersey politics has been rather white, male and middle class up till now, if you were to typify it, wouldn't you say? Well, we have had an increasingly diverse assembly, particularly over the last 11 years that I've been a member of the States of Jersey. However, yes, the female participation has been in the 20% region. And now we've broken over the 40% barrier. And actually, there are more female deputies now than there are men, which is incredible. Yes, and we should say not deputies to men. That's what's the name for elected to the state assembly.

For those who aren't familiar with the names of the roles that you're you're talking about. Is it that there's been a lag of women wanting to be involved? Or what do you put that lack of representation until very recently down to? I think politics is not often the first thing that women think of doing, is it? There are many women, of course, who do participate in local politics in various places, but there are very few nations where there is a high level of female participation.

I think Rwanda is actually one of the few places that I'm very aware of. It's not seen as something that is easy for women to do, perhaps. We're sometimes not keen to face what is perceived to be an area where there's often conflict and difficult discussion. But I think women participating in that is actually a really positive thing. And we need more women to take on these roles. Well, that seems to be the case, or certainly the trend now, finally, in Jersey. I mean, you say, you know, politics is a place where women representation, female representation is still tricky. It just, Jersey seems to have taken that bit longer, for instance,

if you were to compare it to politics in the UK in some ways, although the UK's still got some way to go. The voter turnout is just over 40%, 41.6%. It seems that perhaps the people of Jersey don't care that much about who looks after them. Well, this has been an issue in our elections in the recent past. It's something that we have tried to work on. But unfortunately, we do have what seemed to be very much a divide between the country and the town dwellers. So I now represent a more rural area of the island and participation rates are much higher, up into 60 percent and beyond in those areas.

But sadly, in town where 35,000 people do live out of our 103,000 population, we have seen very low rates of participation, which is a great shame. And it's something that we really have to turn around. Is Jersey a tax haven? Jersey is a financial centre. It's an international financial centre. It's a place that sees great distribution of wealth to other nations. It doesn't seem that it's great distribution of wealth to its people, though. I mean, how many, what percentage of your population are on zero hours contracts at the moment?

Well, that's a good question. And I don't have that exact figure to hand at the moment. But we actually have been encouraging a move away from zero hours contracts. And also we are committed to moving towards a living wage. You don't have a living wage? We do have a living wage, yes. And an increasing number of employers are becoming accredited under our living wage system, which is a really good thing. What percentage of employers do you know? At the moment, it is quite a small group, but I think that there's a

significant campaign at the moment to move on to that. And I think it's something that we very much approve of. We are about to debate an increase in our minimum wage as well, which is taking a great step towards meeting the living wage. And there's a commitment, I think, in the Assembly at the moment to make our minimum wage the living wage over a period of time. It's just that chasm between the perception of Jersey, as you talked about, a centre of finance, and the reality of people in Jersey's lives and the cost of living crisis and how that's affecting them. I mean, some MEPs in the European Parliament think Jersey should be on the European Union's tax haven blacklist. Jersey was ranked eighth in the world in 2021 for tax havens, most complicit in helping

multinational corporations underpay corporate income tax. That's by the campaign group, the Tax Justice Network. As the new leader of Jersey, what do you say to that? Well, look, Jersey actually has a very good track record. We have a highly regulated, very professional financial services industry here, and it generates a lot of wealth for many nations. The distribution of the, I'll leave it at that, I think. I don't follow. When you say it's got a good track record, why on earth does this campaign group rank Jersey eighth in the world for tax havens most complicit in helping multinational corporations underpay corporate income tax?

Well, they are, as you say, a campaign group with a specific view and a specific agenda. And I think there is actually a very good story. There's MEPs in the European Parliament who think Jersey should be on the European Union's tax haven blacklist. They don't have that agenda necessarily in that campaign group. But we also participate with other OECD countries at a very high level. And we take that role in the international community very seriously. I suppose I'm just trying to get a sense from you. You talk about women stepping up, women being a greater part of Jersey's politics and politics around the world. Do you ever worry about the morality of this? I think that we are a very good jurisdiction that actually does have a strong and cohesive

community. We can always improve at home. And I think we're always seeking to do that. We have a strong ranking. We're considered to be one of the best financial centres in the world. And I think we perform really well. But the best financial centre in the world creating wealth for others away from Jersey. There's a gap for the people of Jersey. I mean, what would you say to those people of Jersey who don't want to vote, they don't think it's going to make any difference, and they're concerned about the morality and the state of the finances?

Yes, it might be good for others, but it's not so good for them. Well, if you've taken an opportunity to read either my vision statement or the material that I did publish during my election campaign, I made a firm commitment to improving our ranking in the OECD Better Life Index.

And I also have made housing and the cost of living my key priorities moving forward. And I know absolutely that that's what we have to do. And we're set about delivering on those. Well, we will see how that goes. Of course, that's what you've been elected for with those who did vote. And you've got an equal mix, I believe, in the cabinet of women and men, which is also a striking part of how you're going to govern and moving forward. We'll see how that

goes. I know it's very early days. Just finally, for women in the UK leadership race, the Conservative leadership race, now trying to be Prime Minister, Are you following that? Do you follow that? Do you watch that with anticipation? Of course, it's really important that Jersey has a good and strong relationship with the United Kingdom and whoever the next leader of the United Kingdom is will work with them. But it is great to see female participation

and women stepping up in that arena. Emma speaking to Christina Moore, the new and first female political leader of Jersey. When the poet known as Lady Unchained was 21, she was sentenced to two and a half years in prison for grievous bodily harm following a fight in a club while trying to protect her sister. Picking up the pen as part of her survival in prison, she began to write and perform poetry. Lady Unchained is now a poet, performer and an award-winning broadcaster. She's also the founder and creative director of Unchained Poetry, an artistic platform for artists with experience of the criminal justice system.

Now she's releasing her first poetry book, Behind Bars on Punishment, Prison and Release, a culmination of her work during and after prison. She joined Emma live in the studio on Wednesday and Emma started by asking her what drew her to poetry and writing her first poem, Good Girl Gone Bad, in prison. It's so crazy. I think at the time,

I didn't even really believe I was writing poetry. It was just a way to deal with the emotions and the loneliness that you have to deal with in prison because I'd never been to jail. I didn't know how to survive in there. So Good Girl Gone Bad was something I wrote when I was asked to write a letter of forgiveness. You know, how do you show forgiveness?

How do you ask for forgiveness? And I remember saying to um the chaplaincy like I want to forgive myself first because I was so angry with myself I wasn't angry with the justice system at first or anybody else I was just angry at myself so good girl gone bad for me was telling myself you know what you was a good girl and in a in a matter of seconds you became somebody that everyone believes is bad. And how do you go back to that person? So that was the first piece of writing I did and performed in the chapel while I was still in prison at that time. You're going to share a poem with us today.

It's called The Women. Yes. But before you do that, what is it about? What was the thought behind this? I guess I have to talk about Holloway. You know, I've been back to Holloway now that it's closed down. And, you know, I've reflected and met other women who were in Holloway, whether it was the same time as me or other times.

But on reflection, more so looking back at it, these women are just like me. You know, at the time, I just thought, you know, oh, there must be criminals. You're all criminals. And I didn't feel like I was. But then as I look back, I see there were mothers, grandmothers, daughters, children. And these were all women that learned how to survive with a fake smile. And that is the message kind of behind it, just understanding how we all kind of connected, but without even knowing it. Can you read it for us? Yes, I can.

Here we go. This is The Women. I look at these women, young, old, grandmothers, mothers, daughters, children, black, white, Asian, educated, uneducated, labelled, numbered, tainted, tortured. They all look like me. I see the same sad look in their eyes. Powerless. Less than those we left outside.

Learning to live behind a fake smile is the first thing we teach each other. As we watch the sun rise and set through bars, watch the world change around us through a screen, we are the women who see too much, who hear cries at night, but no one hears or sees us. Thank you for reading that. Thank you.

It's always different, I'm sure, to perform something right. And perform it on live radio. Although I know you broadcast on prison radio and congratulations for, I know you've been awarded for that as well by the radio industry. Will some women do you think be listening in prison today? I really, really hope so. And in that I really hope that they can see just how the journey has gone from being an inmate to becoming a radio host, to becoming an author. You know, I never believed that that's something that could happen, especially when the stats are just always telling us we're going to go back to jail. You know, more than likely in less than a year, a woman can end up back in jail. And that's because the support after prison is not there.

There's a lack of like housing. They don't have a house. They don't have benefits. I remember actually hearing women say that when they went into Holloway, they felt safe. And that really freaked me out because I never felt safe in Holloway. I never felt safe in prison. But for them to say that at the time, I didn't understand it. But then when you understand that the reason they went back to prison was because they had no doctors. They had no home. So they couldn't register to a GP.

They couldn't get anything that they needed. They don't have a dress or bank account so they can't sign up to benefit. So the easiest thing to do is end up back in jail and that for me was the craziest thing to hear. You talk there in that poem about no one hears us or sees us, of course that makes you think about women in prison now but the same can often be true when women and men come out of prison yes and that's of course what you're talking about exactly what isn't there for you to try and rebuild and and take your life forward if you can do you find that yourself do you feel that i know that lady unchained of course it's not your name it's what you work under but of course it refers to being free yeah and

unchained in other ways too exactly how hard is it to move on and to have those conversations and be seen not as someone who went to prison to be honest it's taken me 13 years to get to this point to be seen for my creativity um and my art and my you know um hosting it's taken 13 years and i don't think it should have taken that long to get to that point i think I'm hosting it's taken 13 years and I don't think it should have taken that long to get to that point I think for me also it's the fact that there's so much judgment around having a conviction so you pretty much shy away from telling people until you feel like somebody's actually going to listen outside I guess for me it took me ages to just find people that I guess didn't want to go back to jail.

It was funny because I'd always be like, we didn't enjoy prison. And everyone would be like, no, you're lying. Everyone enjoys jail. Like, that's why you always go back. Well, people think that. Yeah. And I was like, I don't know where these people are, but I didn't enjoy jail. So for me, finding other people, finding someone like National Prison Radio, being able to talk to people in prison,

making them see that this is what I'm doing on the outside. It is possible. That's how I found my voice. But then I also found a community of other people who have that lived experience that are doing amazing work, whether it's in the theatre, whether it's in broadcasting, they are doing it. It's just that we don't get promoted enough. What do you think about those who are listening to say, and of course, each person's individual and why they go to prison is very specific to them at that moment. But that, you know, prison is prison. And when you are in prison, there's a reason why you are there. And there's limited sympathy, limited insight, limited empathy if someone in your case goes to jail for GBH

or whatever that empathy isn't there for a reason what would you say? to be honest I would say to them before I went to jail I literally was very judgmental to anybody that committed a crime

I was like you do a crime, you do the time you were like that that's exactly how I was I need people to understand that I was very judgmental towards people that had a conviction. But then again, I had never been in trouble.

I'd never done anything that was big enough to be arrested, cautioned or sent to prison. So I think people need to understand that we are all really one step away from a prison sentence. And if you look at the stats also, women in prison, there's about 26% of them that are in there for petty crimes, so theft. And then you've got half of them that are in there because they love the wrong person and ended up in a situation because of their partner. There has been a lot of campaigning about specifically women in prison and how unique the large number of those issues are that you're talking about. Exactly. So when we look at that, you know, can you not look in the mirror and think, well, actually, maybe I could love the wrong person. Maybe I might lose my job tomorrow and I might not have an income. How do I feed my children? You know, and I think that people will say, well, actually, they did the crime that they should have done better.

Well, it's hard to do that when you have no support. It's hard to do that when you don't even know about places like women's centres, which I found out about women's centre like maybe 10 years after being released. And that's somewhere where women could be sent instead of being sent to jail. It's an alternative. And they can go there and get help with, you know, housing, probation, you know, childcare, all of those things. Do you think, Lady Unchained, you could have got to a less judgmental place without going to prison, though?

Honestly, I don't know. Like right now, because of the stats and because I've been there, I'm more interested in what goes on in that system. But because before, I don't know. Like right now, because of the stats and because I've been there, I'm more interested in what goes on in that system. But because before, I didn't know prison. I'd walk past a prison and I'll kid you not, Emma, I probably didn't even tell you that I knew that was a prison. It's only now, because I've been through it, I've experienced it and seen so many things, it's hard for me to not go, well, actually, there's something else going on here. The poet and performer Lady Unchained speaking to Emma. Now, plenty of you got in touch over the week about our stories. But one message that came in following our story on 30 years

of forced adoptions in England and Wales was from Kathy. And she said, I've just recently heard about the committee which was looking into mothers forced to give up their babies. I am one of those babies. I'm now 68 and the info I was given was somewhat Victorian sounding, no surprise really. I was told she was 21 or maybe 22 when I was born, very much under her parents' control and the searches I have carried out have always come to a dead end. That missing part of my jigsaw puzzle has always been missing. I applied for my original birth certificate and a really scrappy piece of paper came to me with the details scrawled on the paper as though the person writing it was disgusted with me for being an adopted child. That was in the 90s. I feel my mother is probably dead. She'd be 89.

I would oh so have loved to meet her. Sincerely, Cathy. That's all from me today. Join Krupa on Monday from 10 for Woman's Hour. Have a great rest of your weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.