Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Rosamund Pike, Nadiya Hussain, Gisele Pelicot memoir, Dr Punam Krishan, Ketamine & young people

Episode Date: February 21, 2026

Rosamund Pike, the Emmy and Golden Globe winner, is known for standout roles in Saltburn, her Oscar nominated lead in Gone Girl, and Made in Dagenham. Next month she stars on the West End stage, coming back to the role of Jessica Parks, the maverick judge at the heart of the National Theatre’s hit play Inter Alia, also filmed for NT Live screenings. She joined Anita Rani to discuss her role that explores motherhood, masculinity and the complexities of justice.It’s more than a decade since Nadiya Hussain became a household name after winning the Great British Bake Off. Since then, she’s fronted her own cookery shows, written more than a dozen cookbooks and a series of children’s books. Her latest collection of recipes is called Quick Comforts, and Nadiya joined presenter Clare McDonnell to talk about finding comfort in food, her career so far and lots more.In December 2024, Dominque Pelicot and 46 other men were found guilty of the aggravated rape of his wife Gisèle. Another two were found guilty of attempted rape and a further two were found guilty of sexual assault. Dominque had drugged Gisèle with medication without her knowledge, raped her and invited other men to rape her, filming as they did so. At least another 20 men who took part in these rapes could not be identified. Waving her right to anonymity, Gisèle Pelicot declared that shame has to change sides. Despite her becoming a household name, not only in her native France but around the world, very little was known about Gisèle herself. She has written her memoir, A Hymn to Life, with writer Judith Perrignon and Judith joins Nuala McGovern to discuss.Dr Punam Krishan is a Glasgow based NHS GP and the resident doctor on the BBC’s Morning Live programme. Back in 2024 she was a contestant on Strictly Come Dancing where she was the first dancer to perform a Bollywood routine. But six months ago, at the age of 42, she was diagnosed with breast cancer, and has since gone through treatment. She has recently written about how being a doctor didn’t prepare her for the experience of being a patient. Dr Punam joined Anita to discuss.Ketamine has become a worryingly popular recreational drug among young people, and the consequences can be devastating. That's according to a specialist NHS clinic which reports that some teenagers suffer such severe bladder damage from taking it, that some rely on incontinence pads. To discuss the implications, Anita was joined by Dr Alison Downey, Consultant Urologist at Mid Staffs NHS Foundation Trust, who is treating young people with ketamine related bladder problems. Also joining them is Eva, who has stopped using ketamine and is receiving support from the hub.The award-winning internationally renowned Welsh harpist and composer Catrin Finch first came to prominence in her early 20s as the official Royal Harpist to King Charles, the-then Prince of Wales. She achieved chart success with her No. 1 recording of Bach’s Goldberg Variations and has performed with many of the world’s leading orchestras. Catrin, who began playing the harp at just six years old, has a new album, Notes to Self, a series of reflective and deeply personal new tracks she has composed for Katy, her 13-year-old-self. She joined Nuala and performed live in the studio. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Annette Wells

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If there was a big rent button that would just demolish the internet, I would smash that button with my forehead. From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4.

Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. The award-winning actor Rosamund Pike on returning to the stage as Jessica Parks, the Maverick London Crown Court Judge in Internet. Alia. Judith Perignon, who co-wrote with Giselle Pelico, her book, A Hymn to Life, Shame Has to Change Sides, which documents the story of an extraordinary woman who survived mass rapes that were initiated by her husband. Also, Dr. Poonam Christian, the GP from Morning Live, whose job it is to take people through often very difficult times in their lives on getting through her own

breast cancer diagnosis. Nadia Hussain, great British bake-off winner on her new cookbook, to come. But first, Rosamund Pike is an Emmy and a Golden Globe winning actor whose performances include a scene-stealing role in Saltburn, the film written and directed by Emerald Fennell, the lead in David Fincher's Gone Girl, she was nominated for an Oscar for that role, and made in Dagenham, Stephen Woolley's film about the 1968 strike by women at the Ford Factory. Other roles in film, TV and podcasts include the journalist Marie Colvin, the scientist Marie Curie, and President Woodrow Wilson's wife, Edith. And she's a producer on the Netflix series Three Body Problem.

While next month, she stars on the West End stage, coming back to the role of Jessica Parks, a maverick London Crown Court judge, who's at the heart of the National Theatre's hit play into Alia, which has also been filmed for anti-live screenings. It's a role which delves into motherhood, modern masculinity, and the complexities of justice. While Rosamond joined me in the Woman's Hour studio on Friday,

and I started by asking her how she'd describe the character. The play has really spoken to women who've come to see it because they sit in the theatre and they think, oh, that's me, that's my life. Because as well as being about the legal system, it's about how any professional woman is sort of living her life, going about her day until something else sabotages the narrative, whether it's her child who's lost his football boots or, you know, the husband who's calling in sick

and suddenly or somebody's helping with childcare, can't make it or any professional hiccup happens that means your day is derailed. She says once to her friend that she feels that she's living her life in the cracks of other people's needs, which I think is a line that really spoke to me and I think we'll speak to a lot of other women too. I think it's just that. It seems to represent the freneticism, the frenetic nature of, I don't even say freneticism, the frenetic nature of a woman's of a modern woman's life because I think we still feel, however far we've come with feminism,

we still feel grateful, I think, to be able to have careers. And we feel that we have to pretend we don't have other obligations as well, but we have to do, we want to do them. And it's called into Alia, which means among other things. So as you said, it reflects roles as wife. She's a wife, she's a mother, she's a feminist, she's a professional. And it's this idea that, well, maybe we were sold to that. I don't know what you think about this idea of having it all.

And amongst all those things, she's also having to balance the ego of her husband as well. That's another subtle dynamic in the play. Jessica is a Crown Court judge. Her husband is a silk, as a barrister. So probably economically, he earns more than her, because as a judge you often take a pay cut, but then you get some time back. And obviously, as a judge, she holds more power within the law than he does, which is a subtle dynamic.

And she talks about how at one point she confides in the audience and says, my God, I realize I've always been minimizing my achievements. And I think a lot of women who came to see it related to that, too. I've even had women talk to me privately and say they earn more than their husbands and they hide it. And they don't want to take their bonus because they're worried that it might, you know, create a awkward dynamic. I mean, it's so interesting that as women, we're still uneasy about owning power, I suppose. I think we should hear a clip from the play. Here's Jessica reflecting on her career and motherhood.

It's this job. I mean, it takes up so much. It's never balanced. As a mother, I always feel guilty. I look at the photo of Harry on the mantelpiece. He's holding a ball. He's smiling. But I see the look of slight trepidation in his face. He's never been any good at sport, poor kid. And I try to remind myself of the hours that I have spent with Harry. I don't do that at speed. My beautiful boy. His vulnerability. God, what is it to be a parent? Well, the worry. They don't tell you about the worry. No, it's interesting because you hear that. Yeah. But what you don't see is the fact that she's frantically laying a table at the same time. At the same time, yeah. I mean, you're doing stuff throughout the whole. It's so much energy.

You never stop. The rule basically is if you talk about it, you don't do it. So if I'm talking about my son, I'm likely doing the ironing or laying the table or cooking dinner or rearranging the fridge or there's always, I think, which I think is representative of most of our lives anyway. Why did you want to do it? this particular role? I felt it was very contemporary. I think it speaks to now. It's about raising boys.

And I think in all the discussion about, you know, violence against women and girls, which is something very close to my heart and, you know, something I'm shocked by the figures and the underreporting and women's fear of going through the justice system because they're worried that they won't be believed, I think in making a safe space for women to report sexual assaults, we also have to be so conscientious about what kind of men we're raising and how we're talking to boys about this and how not to make them feel marginalized in the conversation

and how male role models are so important to young men, which is something that comes up in the play. You know, I have a big conversation with my husband at one point saying, you know, when did you talk to him about, and my husband says, what, sex? And I say, no, not about sex, about rejection and heartbreak and vulnerability and, you know, talking about women as people, not body parts

and all the subtleties of framing that conversation. which I think hits home to the men who come to see the play as well. How has this character and doing all the research, and I'd like to know about what research you've done because you are playing this Crown Court judge, sort of changed who you are? Well, I think incrementally characters leave a mark on you. And, you know, since playing this woman with judicial authority,

I've suddenly found myself invited to the House of Lords to talk about reform of app design, for instance, you know, that there's a company called, there's an organisation called Five Rights, which is really campaigning so that are the algorithms that drive these apps. At the moment, they're built with addiction kind of hardwired into the way that the apps are designed.

And we're saying, you know, children don't stand a chance. We need reform that means that the apps consciously move away from those design norms. So that's a strange thing that's come adjacent to the play. But I've also made, I would say, friends with people in the judiciary. and I've now, you know, I go in quite obsessively, I suppose, or conscientiously anyway, into court.

Every time I go, there's something new that I can glean, because in the courtroom scenes in the play, I have to conjure the other barristers and the other personnel in the court because I have a husband and son on stage with me, but in the court, I create everything for the audience. So every time I go, I see a gesture or a way of standing or a way of scratching or, you know, some little idiosyncrasy that I can bring on stage. And the women who do this role, the judges, are the most phenomenal, thoughtful, kind, clever, wise people. And I am so in awe of them. So what responsibility then, playing that role?

And at the times it was scary in rehearsal. And at one point I thought this is too big this role. I can't do it. I never stop. It's an hour and 40 minutes straight through. I never leave the stage. I don't have a minute to think. And then I went for dinner with these judges.

And I thought, you are so brilliant. You're so cool. I have to do this for you. guys. Yeah, you look like you're having a lot of fun though, even though it's a very serious topic. I do karaoke at one point. You do brilliantly karaoke is excellent. So amazing. Has Shanaya Twain not called you? She did come to the play, you know. She did come to the play, which I was flabbergasted by. My assistant texted me and said, you'll never guess what Shania is in the audience.

And my stomach fell out of my body. Because you're singing Shania in the karaoke. I mean, when the first bars of man, I feel like a woman started up and I thought, oh, my goodness, I've got Shania in the audience. I've never felt so kind of unnerved. I mean, you are, I can't even imagine. As a parent yourself and you've got two boys, do you, I mean, now you are, you've just said, you know, you're kind of out there advocating yourself about social media. How would you describe how you deal with it yourself? I mean, this is a topic we talk about a lot on the program, you know, how you can try and protect them from what's outside the door,

but actually what's happening within the home. I think that's the thing. You know, you're in a young child's life. You're always making sure, you know, you're with them, you're escort into the playground, you're watching, who's watching them, you're making sure their walk home from school is safe. And yet inside your home,

as soon as you give them a device, the internet knows their curiosities, their desires, their sort of, you know, illicit wanderings, and it will answer them without any compassion, any wisdom, immediately and without care. And we can't compete with that. We, as parents, we know their minds, the internet kind of knows their darkest desires. And that's very scary. You know, we're all sort of bargaining all the time with our children.

And I say to them, I say, look, every hour you spend is making money for someone else, you're losing and that someone else is gaining. But it mostly falls on deaf ears. Yeah, well, you're a mum. I'm mum, exactly. I just wonder what the reaction is to people who come and see the play. What do people, I mean, we can't, obviously, there's a lot that happens and there's a big twist and we're not going to give anything away. You're just going to have to go and see it to experience it.

And I really highly recommend you do because it's brilliant. But what kind of, you know, what kind of conversations do people come away with? Well, I think there's a big conversation around, you know, the manosphere and what this thing is that sort of lures our sons online, you know, what modern masculinity looks like, how boys can sort of assert a sort of masculine bravado, you know, in text form that perhaps they wouldn't do in person. You know, you can be so sort of covert with your inclinations

or what you say about someone when it's not public. You know, that's what the text message has given us, the ability to be mean, to be derogatory, without it being seen. However, of course, if you get into trouble, it will be seen by everyone. You know, if you get into trouble, the police will take your phone and they will look through every single message you've ever sent anyone. And I always talk to my sons about that, you know, and especially, you know, with all this culture, which we never had, thank God, of like sending nude photos. And that is just, you know, just don't do it ever.

Rosamond Pike there and Inter Alia is on at London's Wyndham Theatre from the 19th of March until the 20th of June. Now, it's been more than a decade since Nadia Hussain won the Great British Bake Off back in 2015 and soon became a household name. Since then, she's enjoyed a career filled with cookbooks, television shows. She's even written a series of children's books. Her latest collection of recipes is called Quick Comforts and is billed as feel-good food designed to be made quickly and eaten slowly. Well, Nadia joined Claire this week and she began by asking her, what made her want to put this collection together? Most of the food that I cook and make at home is comfort food. And I think it's interesting now because I can really understand and appreciate what comfort means now that my kids are a lot older.

Because one by one, they're sort of moving out, going to uni. And like now I see, you know, when I call them, I'm like, what shall I have cooked ready for you when you come home? And you realize, like, that's what it, that's all they want. They want to come home and they just want to eat something really yummy. And so it's more than just food. For sure. It's kind of what it represents. For me, it's the memories attached to food.

It's the way it makes you feel. It's a hug without giving you a hug. And I suppose for me, you know, I grew up in a home where food was the way we showed emotion, especially for my mom. My mom's not a massive hugger. But when you go and see her, she will feed you. And that's her way of saying, I love you. And I think there's something about the kind of language.

of food that is so beautiful. And how was that a comfort to you? Because we have spoken about, you know, the kind of emotional distance that you had with your mother. Yeah. But that's how she expressed your love. Her love to you. Oh, absolutely.

Like I feel her love and it's not, I suppose it's almost tainted in expectation because I think, oh, well, that's how we should show love with hugs and I love you. But actually, the way my mum showed love and the way her mom showed love was through food. And essentially, I'm doing the exact. same thing.

Differences, I say I love you a lot and it irritates my kids. And they're like, all right, we know. Get lost. Just cook me something. Do you have different categories of food, for example, from dishes that make you feel warm and cozy? Are there moments in your sort of food journey that come back to you? Oh, yeah. I mean, I think when I think about lots of, especially growing up, when I think about my dad,

whenever we were sick, my dad used to make the best mashed potatoes. and he would add so much butter, it would like, it would pool at the edge of the plate. And it would just like he would make it and he would mash it down really, really well. And I think every time I eat mashed potatoes, I think of my dad. So even if it's the memories that are attached to the food. So yeah, there's always something. And I think what's lovely is that as my kids get older, now I see it in them. They're like, oh, do you remember that time when this happened and you made this?

And it could have been just a coincidence. but they've attached the food to the memory. Yeah, let's talk about, let's get into, there's so much I want to ask you about, but let's look at the book now. It's all about making delicious food quickly. Many of us are time poor. I have a big family and you get bored with making the same things,

but you do actually want to make food for your kids that they enjoy. As you say, it's a demonstration of, hey, you know, I've taken the time for you. I've made you something nice, but sometimes it's really, really hard to do that in the busy lives that we lead. So this is a useful book, isn't it? Because it's understanding the business of everybody's lives and how you put something tasty on the table

that isn't going to take too much time. Yeah, I mean, it's always been about convenience for me and doing things as quickly as possible. I love being in the kitchen, don't get me wrong, but I am also a serial hobbyist. There's not one hobby that I don't partake in. So I love spending time doing those things, but I also want to cook delicious food.

and I'm really aware of that, especially with sort of just, I just know there are people out there like me who don't have tons of time and just want to cook delicious food that doesn't take up, you know, every minute of the day or you don't want to spend three days in the kitchen. So I'm very much about sort of canned foods, frozen foods, dried ingredients, that kind of stuff and using those things to make life a little bit quicker. There have been other books haven't there where someone will say, oh, it will take you this length of time. and then you look at the ingredients list and think, but I've got to go to the supermarket before I make that. So you're very much like you can do this from your cupboard. Totally. There's nothing in there that you probably don't already have in your cupboard.

And I'm very much like when I pick up a cookbook, if there's a recipe that's got sort of 18 ingredients and I've got to go buy 15 of those, I always kind of question, now if I don't like this recipe, I'm left with 15 ingredients that I now don't know what to do with. So I'm very much like if I don't like the first recipe, I'm probably not going to like the book.

So, but everything in here is just, it's yummy, it's delicious and it's simple and easy and pretty much guarantee that you've got all the ingredients at home. And again, we have an air fryer in our kitchen. It's very much the teenage go-to. But you actually, I mean, I'm ashamed to say sitting in front of you, Nadia, probably a lot of people listening, you use the air friar to reheat stuff, to cook stuff quickly. You'd rarely do recipes in the air friar. So is that another kind of reality check? You think this is people's lives. you know, let's do something they can use this quickly and make a proper meal. For sure, absolutely. You can use an air friar to not just reheat, but you can also cook.

You can do a really good steak in an air friar. I just think that right now, this is what people are using. And so we should try and rather than judge people and say, oh, well, why are using an air friar and you should be using the oven? You know, like, let's put our judgment away. Let's put that aside and go with what people are using. I have an air friar. My kids love it. They absolutely love it.

You can reheat things. You can put a bit of salmon in there. Delicious. You know, like it's quick and it's easy. Why not? I love the fact you're also bringing about deep fat frying as well. I don't need to go out and buy a deep fat fry that, do I? No, absolutely not.

And I think that's one. If I could write an entire book on deep fat frying, I would. There would be an encyclopedia because I love deep fat frying. Because I get people asking me, when there's a recipe about deep fat frying, they say, can I do that in the ear fry or can I shallow fry that? or can I put that in the oven? I go, you can, but it's not going to be the same recipe because deep frying gives you that texture

that nothing else will. And I often get people asking me, so what do I do with all the leftover oil? I have leftover oil that I know I can't use. I have a vat in the garage. I put the oil in the vat. Let that all, after about a week, all the smells and stuff go away from,

they just dissipate from the oil. And then I use it to waterproof my fences. That's kind of awesome. what you do with it. I would never have guessed that. Waterproof your fences. Waterproof your fences. Stick it in a bucket outside. This is your full of absolutely information we can use this morning, Nadia. That is absolutely brilliant. You've been in the public eye for over a decade now and you've written so many books and I wonder how you see the shifting landscape when it comes to how we cook and how we engage with influencers, for example. There's an awful lot of kind of

cooking advice that comes at us on social media. you can do this, it's quick and easy. Not always, because I've tried a few of those. But how do you feel about that? Because it's interesting that you're saying embrace frying, where we're always being told, go the other way. You need this protein. You need this, that and the other.

How do you feel about all of that? Oh, well, I don't really, yeah, I stopped caring such a long time ago that I don't really listen to, like, yeah, because this is the problem. We get told so often that this is what you should be doing in high protein. and all. I get that. That's fine. That's all good. But oh my goodness, can we just live a little, please? Can we just be happy? And deep fat frying makes me very happy. But I appreciate that there's a landscape right now and it's become our currency, almost. Social media and TikTok and all of that and people use that to learn. I think that's a brilliant thing. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. But I have and always will be encouraging.

people to get in the kitchen, to enjoy being in the kitchen, and remind them that it doesn't have to be laborious or difficult and that you can make something really delicious at the end of it. And it doesn't have to be social media worthy. Like it doesn't have to be beautiful. It can just be simply delicious and easy to make. And I think that is something that I would always encourage. And that's all I've ever wanted when I've written a cookbook is like, just be happy in the kitchen. Nadia Hussain talking to Claire there. And Nadia's latest cookbook, Quick Comforts is out now. Now, in December 2024, in France's largest rape trial, Dominique Pelico, and 46 other men were found guilty of the aggravated rape of his wife, Giselle.

Another two were found guilty of attempted rape, and a further two were found guilty of sexual assault. Dominique had drugged Giselle with medication without her knowledge, raped her and invited other men to rape her, filming as they did so, at least another 20 men who took part of. in these rapes could not be identified. Giselle Pelicoe waved her right to anonymity and went to the courtroom for the 16-week trial to face those men. She declared that shame has to change sides.

Despite her becoming a household name, not only in her native France but around the world, very little was known about Giselle herself. While this week saw the publication of her much-anticipated memoir, a hymn to life, the writer and journalist Judith Perignon, who co-wrote the memoir with Giselle, joined Nula.

But first ahead of its publication, Giselle spoke to Victoria Derbyshire on BBC's Newsnight. I was truly sacrificed on the altar of vice. I was a martyred woman, thrown as prey to all these individuals. To think that one of them was HIV positive, it was sheer luck that I didn't contract the virus. Because of that, too, I feel that someone up there protected me,

because I really am a survivor. Because I'm a very a survivor. You made the remarkable decision to let the world know who you are, to waive your legal right to anonymity, which meant the trial of all these men would be opened up to the public and the media, and everyone would know who you were.

Why did you choose to do that? When I decided against a close hearing, I wanted the shame to shift to the other side. side. I'd carried that shame for more than four years. That self-inflicted pain, I felt, meant victims were being punished twice. And I thought that if I was able

to overcome it, all victims could do it too. I'm sure of it. They must not lose confidence. They must dare to choose a public trial. It's very important. It's also a path to self-recovery. Shame must be carried by the accused, not the victims.

Giselle Pellico there, and her words were spoken by Claire Corbett. I want to bring in the writer and journalist Judith Perignon, who co-wrote the memoir with Giselle, joining me from France. Why did Giselle want to write this book, Judith? I think Giselle was proposed first. It was not her idea. She's a very discreet and an average woman.

She didn't think even at that time that her life was so interesting. But there were many proposals, and she was beginning to think after this trial that her faith was very well known, her name was known, and the awful story that happened to her, but nobody knew her. Nobody heard her words about it, who she was, where she grew up,

how she met this man, Dominique Pelico, the life they had and what she went through during this investigation and awful story. So she wanted to tell it in her own words. It's very powerful, the memoir. It does start on the day that Dominique, her husband, needs to go to the police station, having been caught taking photographs under women's skirts in the supermarket,

the illegal act of upskirting. Giselle has set the table for breakfast and has set out his clothes, which gives us pause. At the station, we read about her disbelief and denial when the police want to talk to her too and then begin to show her images of when she was drugged and raped. It is shocking. Tell me a little about juxtaposing that minutia of her life, you know, the breakfast things, taking care of her husband, with her. that particular scene? I think it was a way to understand what their life was before. I think

Giselle is in a way an independent woman. She worked all her life and also a traditional woman from her generation, taking care of everything at home, even preparing her husband's clothes, which says something. And these details, we wanted to tell this story with many details for the readers, to be with them to understand what kind of people they were, they are. And of course, a life collapse a few hours later when she's in front of this policeman showing her a few pictures. And even at that moment, in the beginning, seeing this picture of her asleep or drugged and almost naked on this bed, she said, it's not me, it's not me.

And the policeman said, but look, it's your bedroom, and it's your bedroom. Look, this lamp are your bedroom. And she said, yes, but it's not me. She couldn't really realize. And she said, my brain stopped. Yeah. And of course we can understand that. And I think it does give us a real insight into what Chazelle went through at that time.

I think what we also then see is an unraveling. She has three children that she's very close to, David, Caroline and Florian. And immediately, Dominique, has a different role in their lives in a way that Giselle is trying to hold on to some of the past decades, the past 50 years. Already some of her has been erased, she's trying to hold on,

while the children want to get rid of him, his things, the memories, their childhood in a way. Yeah, the big difference is the children will need immediately to create emptiness, to erase everything. And when they come back from the police station, they arrive a day later, they begin to destroy everything, to destroy the archives, the pictures,

the dishes, as if the life and the happy life they had, a happy holiday they had there, didn't really happen. And on the opposite side, Giselle was saying, no, please leave me a few things, leave me a few memories, because it's 50 years of her life. And if you erase everything, I'm dead. I haven't alive. I think that was the part as well that I began to

understand that some aspects of Giselle, for example, she brought clothes to prison to him, worried he might be cold, at times protecting any part of Dominique or her life was really about protecting herself. Exactly. I think Giselle,

and it was interesting to write her old story, since she's a kid, when she discovered a mother's disease, and her mother died when she was nine years old. So since she's a kid, she feels the danger of loss, of emptiness. And this feeling she's to struggle with since she's a very young kid, she felt it coming back when that happened.

Her kids told her, you have to leave, come with us. So they took the train the day after to Paris. And when she arrived in Paris with two suit cases, cases, she felt lost. And she cries every time she described this scene because I think the emptiness of her life at that moment, three days after she discovered what happened to put her back in this feeling and she's struggled with since she's a kid. Yeah, we learn a lot about her childhood in Germany after the war. Her father was a French soldier, her mother dying, as you mentioned when she was nine. Then a cold, very cold stepmother stepped in and there was also the

early death of her father. So when she meets Dominique, she's just 19, madly in love, and considers him her escape. But there are so many details. I was wondering, how did you bring out those memories, Judith? Giselle, as I was very surprised because very old memories are still very alive in her head, in her mind. For example, when she met Dominique Pellico at 19, it was such an important moment in her life. After this childhood, we were speaking about. about, it was like a saver. And she remembers that feeling. And it was the same for him because he was coming from a very, very rough family. So this pact they made together, these two young people saying, we'll be happy. I will help you, you will help me. Was still very, very alive in her mind.

So, and of course, having detail, I was pushing her to dig into her memories, you know, to describe the scene because it's a way you write a book, you know, which, which, which, which, you know, which was it, that was the room, where were you? And I think working like that is being faithful to the way Giselle is living with her memories. A pivotal moment, of course, in this whole story is when Giselle decides that she's going to have a trial that is open to the public. How do you understand how she made that decision? I think Giselle, she went through a different period after this husband was arrested. First, she needed to be alone.

So she went to live on an island of French West Coast, and she didn't want to stay at her children's house. She wasn't feeling well. She needed to be alone. And it was very important for her. And then she began to reconnect with other people, new people. And in the second moment, and she was also reading the file because she had to be prepared for the trial,

and she felt she couldn't be alone anymore. She needed to have people around her because she, in the courtroom, there would be 51 men raped her, who would disrespect her, and she wanted to be surrounded. So the second step of her going back to her fit was to be surrounded with people, not to be alone facing this man. I mean, she is incredible. There was another aspect which might have been distressing to many

who saw that the wives, girlfriends, mothers at times, of some of the rapists were there supporting them a day in, day out. It may have been difficult to witness. I'm wondering what Giselle's thoughts were on that. When Giselle was seeing this woman, sisters, wives, and she felt she could have been like them, denying that their husband, their son, raped this woman.

And this is Giselle's strength to admit she could have been like that. she never changed her story because now she's an icon, you know. She doesn't change the curse of her story and she's very sincere. And she told me that, she said, yeah, I could have been like her, like them. And this woman, and in the court, when the video was shown on the screen, this woman, they were going out. They didn't want to see their partner raping this woman. And my understanding as well from the book is that some were offered

drug testing on whether they could have potentially been victims of chemical submission, but that they refused? Yes, they refused. They say, no, it can't happen to me. And so it's very interesting about the denial and even from women. How does Giselle see her role now? There is a line in the book, close to the end, where she says she is not courageous but has a deep urge and determination,

to change our patriarchal sexist society. Yes, it's interesting because this patriarchal society, she used this word for the first time when she went out of the courtroom for an official statement. And she admits it's a word she never used. It was not in her own vocabulary. And now she used it. And her role after that, I think the book is of a strong message

and she will travel and speak about this book, but she also wants to go back to her regular life, to a calm life. She wants to be back in her home and be a little forgotten, not for what she did, but, you know, she wants to be back to her normal life. Judith Perignon speaking to Nula there and Giselle Pelico's memoir, A Hymte to Life, Shame Has to Change Sides, is out now, and it's also available as an audiobook narrated by Emma Thompson. If there was a big rent button that would just demolish the internet, I would smash that button with my forehead.

From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life, and all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. The Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back on Sunday for a new series. Here to give you practical advice and tips that will help you meet the challenges that life throws at you. It's your toolkit for the juggle, the struggle and everything in between.

Sunday's episode tackles a subject that can make women squirm self-promotion. Whether you're pitching for work, looking for a new job, asking for a raise, or just trying to update your online bio will help you make it feel easier to blow your own trumpet. While Nula was joined by Stephanie Sword Williams, a writer and motivational speaker who wants to change the narrative around self-promotion alongside neurologist Gina Rippen,

who explains why promoting ourselves can sometimes feel threatening and what we can do about it. I think part of the problem that we have is that you monitor yourself and you know, I put somebody in a scanner and you can actually see parts of the brain sort of no-go areas can be,

activated because effectively your brain is trying to keep you safe. And so sometimes we have to put ourselves through experiences where we will go ahead and do something and maybe there'll be a pushback. But you can also think, well, maybe I could frame that pushback more positively. And then the next time that situation arises, then the kind of prediction that your brain is making is, yeah, you can do this. That's the Woman's Hour Guide to Life on Self-promotion without the cringe. Find it in the Woman's Hour feed on BBC Sounds tomorrow. And remember you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week,

all you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Now, Dr Poonham Christian is a Glasgow-based NHS GP and the resident TV doctor on the BBC's Morning Live. In 2024, she was a contestant on Strictly Come Dancing, where she was the first dancer to perform a Bollywood routine. But six months ago, at the age of 42, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. and has since gone through treatment.

She's spoken about how being a doctor didn't prepare her for the experience of being a patient herself and the emotions that you go through. Well, Poonham joined me this week and I started by asking her when she first realized that something was wrong. We were on holiday,

and I just kept feeling this discomfort. It's the only way that I could describe it in my armpit, in the left side of my chest. But, you know, it was a persisting ache. It wasn't anything big, I couldn't feel any lumps, but it was just persisting. And I think from my experience,

what I always say to my patients, to women, we are very good at minimizing persistent symptoms. And if something isn't loud or acute or dramatic, we tend to just put it to the side. I had this gut feeling, something wasn't right. So I did what I tell everyone to do. I went to see my GP. Thank goodness I did

because that's when she picked up that something wasn't right, put me on to the urgent referral pathway. and yeah, two weeks later I've received the news that you know I've been on the other side of the table countless times. I, you know, I've held hands with my patients over the years I've used those words, you know,

of breaking bad news. We're taught about the warning shot to let people, you know, bring somebody in, you know, don't come on your own and here I was receiving this call, you know, bring somebody with you and I was like, I know where this is going and yeah, in less than a heartbeat, your entire world

just falls apart. How did it affect you? I mean, it was just the most awful moment of my life, my husband and my sister with me at the time. And I think that all you can, like if I really put myself back in that room, everything just gets, you get sucked into this dark hole. And nothing matters.

Like your titles, your roles, anything you've achieved, none of that matters anymore because you're having somebody talk to you about your mortality. And you think after 20 years of medicine, you know, that that knowledge would help me, the statistics would make a difference, but it doesn't, because your nervous system doesn't hear that. You know, it doesn't care about that.

Suddenly you're just plummeted into a real state of threat and fear. And, yeah, for me, like, suddenly, going from carefree to life feeling conditional, it was awful. And so being a doctor didn't prepare you for this experience? No, not at all. I think there's one thing, understanding illness. There's another thing stepping inside it.

and I think that that's been the biggest lesson that I have learned is that with my patients, you know, there's one thing having those conversations in the clinic setting, but so much of the journey happens outside the waiting spaces. I call it in-between bits. It's torture when you're waiting for investigations, those results, the anxiety, how it actually affects everybody in your world.

It's not just you getting the diagnosis. Your whole family, your loved ones get it. I've got two children. Exactly. So how did you break the news to them? They're five and 12 years old. Yeah, yeah. So very little. My little one doesn't know anything. She doesn't really understand it.

So for her, Mommy had an ouchy. We couldn't cuddle mummy on one side. For my 12-year-old, I had to be really careful because my mind, despite having knowledge, was spiraling. And he's got access, of course, to the net and friends that have been affected with cancer in the past. So it was, you know, nobody tells you how to do it. No, there's no book there. You've got to read

your own children, gauge their emotional intelligence and where they're at. So for me, I was like, well, when I know the facts, when I exactly know what the plan is and where we're going to be, that's when I'll tell him, and when I can say it without a shaky voice. And so when I got my results back

and we knew the plan, I then spoke to him, but you know, you don't have the luxury of falling apart when you've got young kids. You've got to carry on. You've got to still do the homework. You know, make the lunches, bedtime stories. School runs. Yeah, school runs. But actually

something that was lovely was then in the ordinary was where I found the comfort. It was very grounding and anchoring for me just to keep life going. And they were my sanctuary so I'd look forward to just pick up and be with them because kids have a way of bringing you into the present moment.

Your husband's also a doctor. Did this help? No, because I think that he very much felt that again, we were just learning so much of that lived experience is something that nobody really tells you. You can empathise and you can hear people's experiences. But for him he was trying to support me, but also you are literally dealt the biggest blow of your life. And for him he was like, you know, I had to sit there when they told

you this. He's trying to prop me up, but also not put his emotions onto me. So it's been a really, really difficult six months, but I think one that has taught us so much. What helped you through it? What helped me through it? Gosh, nature. nature walking I think that oh go there were so many days I would just be crying because it's all you can do you just have no idea and you're so alone and that's what I've learned

no matter how much love and support you can have around your cancer is a very personal fight I think anyone living with any chronic illness it's a very personal fight and when your mind is spiraling and you're on your own and you just can't make sense stepping outside walking there's just such a connection that I felt

I had so many signs during that time that would just answer some of the deepest worries that I had. That and yeah, just being present in the ordinary and doing as much as I could, but also just allowing myself to heal and rest. Really important. I wonder if your diagnosis and how it's impacted your professional perspective. Yeah. So I went back to clinic recently and I remember my best friend saying,

just be careful. She was like, you know, if somebody comes in with breast cancer, you're going to be okay. Yeah. Just go gentle on your. yourself and it is one of those things you don't know how you're going to come back like it's an amazing feeling being back on the side of the table that I know better I've got control how did you feel going back but uh my first patient is said breast lamp and I thought oh right so I brought her in

and as soon as we examined I suddenly I've had this fire in my belly I was just like I've got you I've got you girl we've got this and actually there's one thing understanding how someone feels is another thing actually feeling with them and I think what I have is a real insight and into all those in-between moments and those panic moments. And I think a lot of people also think that once the active treatment finishes, that's it. You know, lots of people go, well, that's great. You've done your treatment. You're good.

But something that's been really clear to me is that whilst the body heals, you know, in terms of tissue healing and healing trust because you lose a huge amount of trust in your body, it's two separate things. Explain what you mean by that. So I had never understood this concept of losing. using trust within your body. So for me, a lot of the grief involved anger. How can my body do this? I'm young. I'm fit. I have zero family history. I have no risk factors. But then I think when the ego settles, you're like, well, why not me? You know, what makes me different? It's a woman's disease.

Yes, men can get breast cancer, but it's very common. But you lose a sense of trust and confidence in your own body because you've been with it all your life and you've put into it. And so I think learning to trust my body again, giving lots of space and grace. to allow the nervous system to also catch up with the body has been a real journey. And I'm still there. I'm still learning to hold myself. We're safe.

We're okay. Easy. I think having compassion and giving yourself the space and grace to rest. And just go at a pace that's good for you. Because I feel as women, particularly, we run at a million miles an hour. We live on high levels of cortisol all the time. The load is real.

And I think I'm just stripping that back and going, no, my health matters more than anything. And I think the clarity has been there's only my health. That is the number one priority where I've always prioritised other things. My career, my kids, my family. It's my health. Yeah. I want to bring something else up as well because it's not the first time that you've been on the opposite side of the medical system. And it's woman, Sarah.

And if you don't mind, if you talk about the trauma of what happened after the birth of your first child. Yes. Gosh. When my eldest was born, I had a very traumatic birth experience with him. A lot of blood loss, but essentially it landed in intensive care with multi-organ failure and sepsis. I was one of ventilated for a week. Following that, again, healing took a very long time. It was about two years, I'd say, until I'd say fully recovered.

But I had really severe postnatal depression. I think that trauma and women go through trauma. time. Yes. But yeah, it was just a really, really difficult time because you've got a newborn. The world is expecting you to just get up and get on with it. You want to do everything for your child, but you are just feeling so broken and like a failure. How could this have happened to me? Like, what have I done this as a one thing that I'm supposed to have been able to do well? And I failed at it. Even you as a doctor? As a doctor, you know, and I think that makes us, that's a lot of the time people go, but even as a doctor,

but why not? Like we're just ordinary people, just humans. And of course, things happen to us too. And it's unfortunate, but we learn. I'd say that any mum that ever comes into my clinic, I am known to be the mum that gives out hugs to them all. Those postnatal checks, I'm like, I have got you, Mama. Poonam, you know everybody's going to be wanting to see you now.

The requests. Oh, I'm here for the hugs. I'm here for the love. We are here to support each other because it's hard. You were only 42 when you were diagnosed. We talked about this on the program a few weeks ago, but should the age of breast screening be brought forward from 50? I think it's such a debated thing,

but yes, I think that we really do need to review this and look into this deeper, because a lot of women are getting diagnosed earlier and earlier. Dense breasts are a risk factor. So it's something that, you know, I think that especially if you have got family history, you're at risk, you know, this should be flagged earlier on. And I am really passionate about that.

I think that more needs to be done to advocate for that. Dr. Poonam Christian there, and if you've been affected by anything you've heard in the program, then do go to the BBC's Action Line website for links to support. Now, ketamine, a powerful horse tranquiliser and anaesthetic has become an increasingly popular recreational drug of choice for young people. But the consequences can be devastating. According to a specialist NHS clinic treating teenagers with complications from the drug,

some are experiencing such severe bladder problems that they're relying on incontinence pads or even buckets beside the bed at night. To discuss the implications, I was joined by Dr Alison Downey, a consultant urologist at Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust, who's also seeing young people with bladder issues from ketamine use. Also joining me was Faye Maloney,

director of the Lifeboat Recovery Community Hub, which supports people with alcohol and drug addiction, alongside her was Eva, who is no longer taking ketamine and is using the hub for support. But I began back. asking Dr Alison Downey to explain what ketamine is. It's a very good drug.

It is a horse tranquilizer, but we use it in medicine for usually pain relief, acute pain relief in A&E sometimes. It can be used as an anaesthetic drug. And there's some use for it in chronic pain and some psychiatric illnesses in America. And it's really important to say that when it's used under medical supervision by a doctor, it is a perfectly safe drug. There are no issues with it. It's very much when it's used recreationally that you get problems.

Okay, and what are the problems and how big an issue are ketamine-related problems in young people at the moment? It's a very big issue nationally. We've noticed a significant increase over the past four to five years. What it does is it shrinks the bladder down, so where a normal bladder would hold about 400, 500 mils. A lot of my patients have bladders that are only holding 50 to 60 mils. So that means you're passing urine every 15 to 20 minutes. The bladder wall becomes very thick, so you get this very strong urge that you have to pass urine. and that can cause incontinence, particularly in young women,

because it damages the lining of the bladder, whenever you do pass urine, you often get blood in the urine, and which can look very alarming. And if it's used progressively, it can cause problems with blockages to your kidneys, which can need drainage tubes. And it also affects other things in the body, too, places like the liver, the heart, and the back passage.

And how old are the people coming in to see you? Can you give us an idea? They're very young. Very young. So most of my patients are in their early 20s, And a lot of them, they often started using a few years before that. So we've got patients who started using when they were 12 or 13, which is just frightening. But most of them are young patients.

I'm going to bring Eva in here. Eva, I'm going to start with you. Thank you so much, by the way, for coming along to talk to us. And I think it's really important to hear your story. Can you tell us why and when you started taking ketamine? So I started taking ket when I'd left. school. I'm about 16, sorry, 17. It starts just how it usually would just when you heard your friends, just, you know, like you just had a party, something like that. But then over time,

it becomes progressively where it's where, you know, it's not just a Saturday anymore, it's a Saturday Sunday. How common was it amongst your friends? It was not that common, but like after a wild always find it was me wanting to them to do it with me every weekend and they'd be like no I don't want to and like I was always different to them what was it about it I think from a young age from the age of about 11 I noticed that like I couldn't handle certain emotions and how my head would work and think that drug because it is because it's such like a decision associative drug, it just takes you away from all that noise in your head, like, and it does a perfect job of it. And that's why it got so bad for me, because the things of what my head

would tell me, and the way it would make me feel, like, I could just take that, and I wouldn't feel any of it. How bad did it get? It got really, really, really bad for me. I put off to go in the hospital for a good while, because I didn't want to hear. what damage had actually done to myself. Like I knew it was bad because of the way I was. I was in agony every day. You know, my mom helping me out of bed. I couldn't even wash myself.

Like, it was awful. And eventually I did go to the urologist where they took me. My bladder was 30 mil. My kidneys were failing. My livers weren't functioning properly. I would have been basically dead before the end of the year. They said if they didn't stop when I'd have.

did, but even hearing that information from the urologist didn't make me starve. I was in the depths of addiction at that point and not going to make me start. So to most people hearing that information, you'd want to, you know, get well and do everything you can to, like, get healthy, but with me, it was just, no, I just want to, I was, I was fine with the force of death. Like, I'd accepted it because I couldn't get out with a situation that I was in. It was, it was too much, like the pain was too much, like I was self-medicating myself with more Ket because that was the only thing that took it away for me.

Like it was crazy to be mom to hear that because she was like, how are you continuing to do the thing that's killing her? But I couldn't actually stop it because it was the only thing that was actually helping me. But in the end of my addiction, it was coming to a point where like the Ket wouldn't even take the pain away for me anymore because it was that extreme and intense. You've been drug-free for over nine months. Well done.

Really well done. You've said that the Lifeboat Community Hub has been instrumental. So how did they help you? It's impacted my life in such a way because for so long I tried to get clean and I just could never do it. Like I even went to Reab and I came out and had relapsed after like two weeks. Like just not and not could make me start. And then I managed to get a few weeks and a few weeks clean by going meetings in the local area. But then I found the lifeboat because my mum was like, oh, I go to life.

life, but when I did, ends up going. And since then, like, I've never looked back because you don't realize how important connection is. Like, connections been massive for me, like, connecting with other people who are just like me is what's kept me well. It's like, although, like, it's been over nine months since I picked the drug up, I feel like your family can still be on edge at times, you know, if you ever having a bad day or, like, you know, you're upset. They can still be on edge. Like, oh, it's. she going to, is she going to, you know, go back to that. But with the life, but like, if you ever having a bad day, you can just come in.

Like, everyone also, like, just put their arms around and just support, yeah, uplift you when you need it. And it's just an amazing space to be in. How are you doing now? I'm doing amazing now. With the drug of choice, with Kett, when you're in such a state that I was at the end of the addiction, you don't even know if you're going to make it through the next day. So to think that, you know, we're over nine months. It's just absolutely mad to me.

Can I just say one last thing? Message to parents from me or caregivers. I come from a good family. I had a good child. You don't always have to be like a feral child, if you want to say, to fall into something like this. Like the devastation this causes to families is like unreal. So it's very important that you can sit down with the kids

and have open conversations and speak about the dangers of what this brings because if I can just sit here today and spread my message of my story and it changed one person's life and helps other families, then, you know, that's what it's all about. Dr Alison Downey and Eva are there. And if you've been affected by issues in this discussion, there's a range of organisations and websites that can offer you advice and support. You can find them on the BBC's Actionline website.

That's it from me, but don't forget to join Nula on Monday when we'll be hearing from best-selling author Marianne Keyes as she brings some of her best-loved characters to the screen in a new TV show, The Walsh Sisters. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. If there was a big rent button that would just demolish the internet, I would smash that button with my forehead.

From the BBC, this is the interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually. actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life, and all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.