Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Russell Brand accuser 'Alice' broadcast exclusive, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie & Doon Mackichan

Episode Date: September 23, 2023

Emma Barnett hears from one of the women alleging she was assaulted by Russell Brand. Speaking for the first time since accusations became public, 'Alice', who has accused Russell Brand of sexual assault when she was a teenager, says Brand's emphatic denial of the allegations of rape and sexual abuse against him is "insulting". 'Alice', who had a relationship with Brand when she was 16 and he was 30, says she wants to start a conversation about changing the age of consent. On her first day back at the Woman's Hour helm after maternity leave, Emma gets some advice and reflection from someone who returned to work after a similar break, the global literary force that is Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. Author of bestselling books including Half of a Yellow Sun and Americanah, plus essays and short stories, she has just released her first children’s book, Mama’s Sleeping Scarf. You’ll no doubt be familiar with the book Frankenstein - but how much do you know about its author Mary Shelley? That’s a question that led director, Lucy Speed, and producer, Deborah Clair, to write, direct and produce their new play that’s about to start touring in the UK. Conception - Mary Shelley: The Making of a Monster tells the story of a journey of self-discovery, as the Frankenstein author returns, years later, to Lake Geneva where she wrote her famous novel. The play is hitting the stage around the 200th anniversary of the first publication of the novel under Mary Shelley’s name - having originally been published anonymously. Artist and author Fleur Pierets embarked on a performance art project with her wife, Julian, in 2017, aiming to get married in all the countries where same-sex marriage was legal at the time. But their dream was cut short when Julian was diagnosed with late-stage brain cancer in early 2018 and died six weeks later. It’s a story Fleur has put down on paper in her book, Julian, which has just been translated into English and released in the UK. Since the 1980s, the comedian and actor Doon Mackichan has been a TV regular, starring in programmes like Two Doors Down, Smack the Pony and Brass Eye. She has also played plenty of roles on stage. She dissects how today’s culture still expects women to adhere to stereotypes, some of which she refuses to act out, as described in her memoir, My Lady Parts.Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor: Sarah Crawley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. We have a packed show for you today featuring the best of the Woman's Hour guests from the past week. Coming up this afternoon, the author Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie on becoming a mother and the impact it had on her writing. I think that becoming a mother is a glorious gift, but it comes at a cost. I felt that I could probably have written two novels had I not had my child. But I think that having her also sort of opened me up to this new experience and awareness that I'm hoping will feed my fiction.

Also, the comedian Dune McKeon on being a woman in comedy. And we hear about the life and work of the author Mary Shelley, known of course for writing Frankenstein. Plus the artist and author Fleur Perrette, reflecting on her journey with wife Julian to marry in all countries where same-sex marriage is legalised and dealing with the fallout when her wife suddenly died. It's a big lie that time heals all wounds. That's a really big lie.

It does not. But it makes the sharp edges a bit more manageable. Well, let's start now with the story that has dominated the news this week. A joint investigation by the Sunday Times, The Times and Channel 4 dispatches revealed that four women have made allegations of rape, sexual assault and emotional abuse against comedian and actor Russell Brand. It's understood more women have now come forward. Brand has strongly refuted any allegations of wrongdoing, saying the relationships I had were absolutely always consensual. One of the women who has spoken out, who we're calling Alice, alleges that Brand assaulted her when she was in a relationship with him aged 16.

He was 31. It feels quite honestly surreal at the moment to see my story everywhere and even elements of my story on the front pages of publications that I hadn't spoken to. And it feels like it was a long time in the coming. But it also felt like something that would never be realized for me. And so I'm just, I can't say that I'm glad because it's been an unpleasant experience, but I hope that we can have conversations that can lead to protecting people in the future. Which we will come to. I know that's a main motivation for you speaking out. You're referring to the fact that you have worked very closely for years now with the Sunday Times, with Rosamund Irwin in particular, the reporter who was part of the team that broke this story, along with a couple

of others at that newspaper. But other papers, as you say, have now written this up and your story sort of takes a life of its own. But that's why it's important to hear from you today on Woman's Hour. Yeah, I wasn't really expecting my story to make such an impact because I guess when it's your own story, it's hard to look at it objectively. So I've been quite taken aback by how many people have either been able to relate to it or have been appalled by it or thought that it's at least something that needs to be talked about. I do have to bring this up because it's important to hear your response to this. Russell Brand has denied this, what you have said. He's also denied all of the other very serious allegations.

He said he's a subject of a coordinated attack, quotes, involving some very serious allegations, he says, that I absolutely refute. What is your response to his response? First of all, I think it's insulting. And it's laughable that he would even imply that this is some kind of mainstream media conspiracy. He's not outside the mainstream. He did a Universal Pictures movie last year. He did

Minions, a children's movie. He's very much part of the mainstream media. He just happens to have a YouTube channel where he talks about conspiracy theories to an audience that laps it up. And it may sound cynical, but I do think that he was building himself an audience for years of people that would then have great distrust of any publication that came forward with allegations. He knew it was coming for a long time. And then as for him denying that anything non-consensual happened, that's not a surprise to me. These men always denied that any of these allegations brought to them. I knew he would. But what he didn't deny, he did say it was consensual, but he didn't deny that he had a it's a very important part of your story and I know something

that you also feel very strongly about because of the law in this country and what what you see as needing to change but I'm interested just to go back to what you said about the fact you think he's been creating a an audience because you think he thought this was going to happen, that this day was going to come. What makes you think that? Because it's the biggest open secret going. You don't have to be an investigative journalist to have conversations with somebody who has an awful experience with him or somebody knows something. And so if you just in casual conversations are encountering people that have had these awful experiences with him, you know that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Are you hurt by his response?

I expected it. I expected him to do something, you know, probably outside of the usual press release or, you know, statement by a publicist or by, you know, drafted by a lawyer. I expected it to be slightly offish, but what I've been preparing myself for a long time that he's not just going to say, I'm sorry, I did it and put his hands up to it. You talked about it being well known, an element of an open secret, the idea of those who surrounded him and the businesses that employed him. One of those businesses is where I'm sat right now, the BBC. He had a radio show here and worked for the BBC for two years, as well as other organisations, including Channel 4, where dispatches this particular programme. The broadcast element of this story went out on Saturday evening.

There's a specific allegation that I wanted to ask you about that the BBC is now investigating. And that is that a BBC car was sent to collect you. I believe, is it on a number of occasions to go and see Russell Brand? Can you tell me a bit more about that? He had two car accounts. You know, we weren't Ubering then. But it was, he had an Addison Lee car account. And then he had, I don't think, I don't know if he had the account of the BBC that he had for us too but the BBC would arrange cars for him and so he would you know I'd seen him previously be picked up from his house by BBC cars so I knew the difference and also it was a chauffeur driven car

it was different than just calling a cab and so he previously he had a friend who was taking him to do his radio show so he said to me oh you get in the car and you go wherever you need to so he said to me oh you get in the car and you go wherever you need to go from there so I took the BBC car that time and on another occasion it picked me up from school so you you believe a BBC car picked you up from school to take you somewhere to meet him it was back to his house and and you know that because of the way that you you've seen these cars used that's your your understanding of it being a bb yes and because i'd used one of their cars previously that he told me just to tell the driver where to take me so a bbc chauffeur driven car picked you up at the age of 16 to take you to russell brand's house

yes yeah the bbc um has said in a statement the documentary just referring to that dispatches program and associated reports contained serious allegations spanning a number of years. Russell Brand worked on BBC radio programmes between 2006 and 2008. And we are urgently looking into the issues raised. What would you like from the BBC? I'd like to know why Moore wasn't done at the time to keep, I mean, he already had a, he had a very well known record of doing things that were inappropriate on the air, having inappropriate conversations. He was, he was not being held. I don't think he was being held to the same standards that other presenters or other, certainly not newsreaders would behave like this. You know, anybody else that was working with the BBC,

there was exceptions and allowances made for him. And we need to ask ourselves why. What would, if you like, make you feel better perhaps about those systems now? They say years have elapsed and and laps they've gone between and things have changed systems have improved do you have confidence in you know a major organization like the bbc there were many others that employed him but do you have confidence things have changed and that wouldn't happen today i can't speak for the bbc but i'm not sure across all television companies and across all media organizations that things have changed.

We went through the obviously Operation New Tree and the several revelations. And then after that, you know, I was working in television at the time and was party to conversations about employing Russell on a TV show and taking women off those shows too so that he didn't assault them because he had before and that he wasn't inappropriate with them. So we'll just take the young women off so that he can work on this. This was post-Utree, post-Savile, so I don't have confidence that things are changing. I think we have these moments, these little landmarks in history of people coming forward and it feels like there's going to be a big movement and it maybe lasts a few months and then we sort of slipped back into our old ways.

Just to be clear, which broadcaster are you talking about when you say there was a request for girls to be taken or women to be taken off the show? That was Channel 4. Channel 4 have also said in a statement that they're looking into allegations raised. You do want to talk about this and are talking about this. And thank you again for talking to me and to our listeners this morning, because you want to talk about the fact you were 16 at the time Russell Brand knew that presumably he knew before we ever went on our first date so when we met initially and he took my number and asked me out on a date he didn't he hadn't asked me but he didn't know So I text him prior to because he said to me, he knew that I was stalling on agreeing on a date with him.

And he said, why aren't you? He said, what's going on? Like, why aren't you? Why don't you want to go out with me? And I said, listen, because I said, because I've got something to tell you. I said, I'm 16. And he just replied saying, okay, so we're still on for dinner at 7.30. And how old was he? He was 30. What do you want to

say about that now as an older woman? Now that I'm in my 30s, looking at 16 year olds, I can't even imagine finding them sexually attractive I can't imagine even thinking of them as that you know a potential mate in any way it just seems the only feelings I have towards them are maternal protective feelings I couldn't even imagine you just don't even put them into that category in your head it's not as I became an older woman and began reaching the same age as him that's when I really started to feel angry and felt like what had happened wasn't consensual in inverted commas or what how would you describe that because although it's technically legal the power imbalance which is what you're referring to there, is huge in this. Yeah. And just because, you know, he was telling me that I'm a very intelligent woman,

I'm mature, being intelligent doesn't mean that you're not naive and that you're not vulnerable and that you don't have the life experiences and your brain isn't fully developed. And you don't have the capacity to understand what adult relationships entail and you know and you don't have a voice yet to advocate for yourself because you haven't had these experiences yet so it's very difficult to say that it's appropriate in any way for a 16 year old to be with be with a 30-year-old. Your mum obviously had those experiences, was in charge of you to an extent, but you were 16. I know that she wanted to try and stop what was going on at the time.

What happened with her and how did that play out? My mum did try. She did all the things that mothers, you know, she followed all those motherly impulses she took my phone away she grounded me she didn't you know she would try to keep me confined to the house but I'm 16 years old so I need to she can't do that indefinitely so I need to go to school I need to go to after-school activities I need to see my friends and then it was within those times that I would sneak off and see him and Russell groomed me and told me to save his number in my phone under a different name and so that you know nothing's

flagged when there's you you know, messages coming up. And he coached me on what to say to my parents. And my mum didn't, there was nothing that she could do to protect me from being in that relationship. Because she's, she's, she had, you know, breakdowns about it. And people say, well, just call the police. And then what? I was legally allowed to be there. And that's what you want to change?

I think we should at least start to think about changing it because perhaps we can suggest the idea of staggered ages of consent. You know, there's a reasonable argument individuals between the ages of 16 and 18 can have relations with people within that same age bracket so that we don't have adults exploiting a 16, 17 year old's capacity for sexual determination. You're allowed to make mistakes as a teenager. They should be with other people your own age and they should be you know they shouldn't be able to be manipulated by somebody that might have ulterior motives once he did know your age do you think that was part of it for russell brand this is obviously your view of of him at

it wasn't a convenient relationship in any way for him because I was grounded. Sometimes I was in school, I was doing, he couldn't be, you know, after a few days, it was decided I couldn't be seen publicly with him. Decided by whom? Sorry. He told me that his management had told him, his agent, not to be seen out and about. His management had advised him not to be seen out and about with a 16 year old. Yeah, because they said it wasn't a good look for him and for his career. He's just, you know, made it to where he wants to be and it's not a good idea.

And there was some kind of discussions. Well, maybe we can say she's your goddaughter well we can't say she's a niece because people know you're an only child there were those kind of discussions and then it was well why don't you just stay inside and then we only met with inside the four walls of his you know of his room. What you're describing there is, as you were alluding to earlier, a system around him that was aware of this particular relationship and the details of it. Yeah, and they were just advising him that, you know,

you're not doing anything illegal, but because people would disapprove, just don't risk being seen out and about publicly. We would go in and out the house at different times. I would either get there before him and he'd leave a key outside for me, or I would leave a couple of hours after he left. Alice, how has this affected your life? It certainly had an impact on my relationships going forward and it made me feel at 16 I'd already felt it was my first sexual experiences and I felt used up I felt cheap I felt dirtied by the whole thing and so then I went on to have another series of you know relationships with people that were for want of a better word sleazy or whatever else because I just thought well if I go for bottom of the barrel I can never be disappointed by anyone and I can never be hurt by anyone because I know to expect

the absolute worst and also I missed a lot of school and I was not in a good place mentally I was just recovering from an eating disorder and I didn't complete my education I didn't even get to finish my A-levels. You were listening to Alice there, not her real name, and her words were voiced by an actor. A spokesman for John Knoll Management, the agency that represented Brand from 2002 to 2017, told the Times, Sunday Times and Channel 4 dispatches that for legal reasons on which they cannot elaborate, they were not in a position to respond to questions. The BBC said, The BBC has, over successive years, evolved its approach to how it manages talent and how it deals with complaints or issues raised.

The BBC has launched an investigation into Brand's time at the corporation between 2006 and 2008. Channel 4 said it asked a production company who produced the programmes for Channel 4 to investigate these allegations and report their findings to us. And a reminder that Russell Brand has called the allegations a coordinated attack involving some very serious allegations that I absolutely refute. He says the relationships I had were absolutely always consensual. Now, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie is author of best-selling books including Half of a Yellow Sun and Americana, plus essays and short stories, and she's just released her first children's book, Mama's Sleeping Scarf. She joined Emma Barnett on Monday to reflect on returning to work after a break, as we marked Emma's return to the programme for maternity leave.

Chimamanda told Emma about her re-entry to work after having her first child. My daughter is going to be eight in a few weeks and I still haven't quite found that re-entry. Really? I'm not sure. I mean, it's so interesting that you mentioned the brain when you were speaking earlier, because I remember thinking, even before I had her when I was pregnant, that I felt as though my brain had been wrapped in gauze, sort of a gauzy material. So I knew I had her when I was pregnant, that I felt as though my brain had been wrapped in gauze. So sort of a gauzy material. So I knew I had a brain.

I knew there were things that I could potentially have access to, but I didn't have access to them, if that makes sense. My brain didn't work for a long time. And just more creatively, I think I am making my way back because I'm working on a novel finally. But I just wasn't able to get into my fictional space for a long time. I just wasn't. What do you think that was? I think it's a number of things.

I mean, I do think something happens to the brain, really. But also, I think it was just more sort of practical things that I was a bit obsessive. I wanted to, I spent a lot of time thinking about what I wasn't doing right. I think I read too many of those bloody parenting books that only result in making you feel anxious for no reason. And so even though I had help,

because I do think it's so important for women, help is important. This idea that somehow a mother, that sort of caregiving for a child is something that is up to the mother or to the parents. I think a child needs a village, a community. And so we were lucky. My mother came when my daughter was born we had relatives

but I was still anxious so I just couldn't relax in my study I would keep peering at um my phone because I had the the baby cam app on my phone and my mother had my baby and of course my baby was fine but I just kept looking. Yes, the constant. And well, I mean, I think this is the first morning in eight months of my daughter being alive. I haven't actually physically laid eyes on her. So it's it's one of those things. And I recognize that to be able to go to work is a necessity for a lot of women that they may not want to do, but they have to, to be able to go to work may be a privilege because they can't afford the care such as childcare costs in this country and around the world. But making it, if you like, universal,

which is what we're trying to get to here, about how you feel in yourself and what's not there anymore or what was there, it's probably very reassuring for people to hear that you as a writer were struggling when then back alone in your sanctum, in your space, to get back to how you were. Yes, and of course, I mean, I understand, yes, I mean, everybody has a different story. But I think what's important maybe to acknowledge, I think, is that there is a cost.

You know, I think that becoming a mother is a glorious gift, but it comes at a cost. And I think it's important to acknowledge that, right? There is something that we, and I will say lose, but without, I mean, I felt that I could probably have written two novels had I not had my child. But I think that having her also sort of opened me up to this new, almost a new phase of experience and awareness that I'm hoping will feed my fiction. Yes. And it's fascinating as well, because, I mean, through her, not to overextend the metaphor, you've written a new life and they're writing a life with you. Yes. Which is, you know, just that thought of two other books in that space is fascinating. You and I, just on a much lighter note, and I promise I'll obviously become very serious again

in just a moment and thoughtful. We've spoken before about constipation, which I just wanted to lower the tone, if I may, or not. You know, it's a real situation, but we've talked about it physically around motherhood. And we've also talked about it creatively. What do you feel like saying? I know it's quite late where you are but uh on that important matter this morning i think well to say that it's it's not um an experience i would wish on anyone no but but i think we were talking about it in the context of that all of the things that often one isn't prepared for in pregnancy so i wasn't prepared for so much i really wasn't and so I was I was just horrified at the constipation that my um my my joints were so achy um I just you know I wasn't prepared for any of that and then no I should probably shouldn't say you should but yeah anything anybody ever says they shouldn't say

I'm in what is it no I mean also just the whole the sort of the birth thing is such a it's it's such a there's a violence to it isn't there there's something also we're sort of reduced to our animal selves and then there's always the possibility when baby comes out that you also um if you keep yeah it's real and because you said it again, it's okay. Because it's from you, an author of the finest words. I just think it's, I think it's, I think that, you know, becoming a mother is really, I think it's glorious. I think it's, it's, it really is. But at the same time, I think it's important to demystify that and talk about just sort of the gritty reality of it.

Because it seems to me that people think it's sort of like in the movies where the woman's just lying there and then they bring the baby and she's perfectly fine. But actually, lots of women are sinking in just awful depression. And it's not how they thought. They've been given no preview necessarily. And I think also, you know, I say this again, we've spoken a little bit over the years on this, but, you know, as someone who very much struggled to become a mother, you know, that gratitude is complex with the hard bits

because, you know, you don't want to just complain and say it's hard. It is hard and it's important to say that, but that doesn't, you know, in any way remove the love, the gratitude and the deference. You know, it's just that balance because I am aware that a lot of people listening, a lot of women listening, aren't able and wanted to. A lot of people didn't want to. But, you know, for those who are in what I call the worst no man's land, that trench of trying,

you know, I'll always have one foot and had, I had a, it was quite a difficult sort of journey to having a child for me as well. And so I have a lot of empathy and understanding of what it's like to deal with infertility. And, but also there's just something about the way that we live now. It seems to me that it's almost difficult to, I mean, it's obvious. Why does one need to state the obvious? Of course the love is there, but we can hold two things at the same time, can't we? But we're living in a society where holding two things at the same time seems to be, you know, and I know when you did your Reith lectures, you talked a little bit about this, of duality, of complexity. Anyone who's not

heard them do go and listen i chop better when i listen to that lecture the vegetables in the kitchen or whatever i'm doing i walk a bit taller it's it was it was fascinating to hear you talk about that you shouldn't have to state the obvious but you do half the time yeah i suppose so yes this is this is the world we live in now and and yes well i was going to say that we've got lots of messages coming in which is the joy of being live on. And yes. Well, I was going to say that we've got lots of messages coming in, which is the joy of being live on the radio. And a message here, for instance, that says, and I hadn't thought about this, but it's a great example

when I'm asking about periods of leave. A message here is, welcome back, Emma. Thank you for that. I was put on furlough in the pandemic for 15 months. So this process of people not being able to be able to go to work. My return to work found me so detached from my job and changed as a person. I had a lot of time to think and I ended up only staying for two months and then left the corporate and very safe career.

I had to go and run my own business in horticulture. I'm forever grateful. And I think that's from Rachel. Thank you for that message. What that speaks to, to bring it back to our conversation, is are you trying and have you tried to go back to who you were? Or is that a road closed? I think I think I'm a different person. I don't think I can go back to the person I was before I became a mother. It's just not possible. I look at the world differently.

And when I was trying very hard to get into my, what I like to call my fictional space, creative space, I used to wonder how, how in the world did I finish a novel in the past? And it just seemed to me sort of this thing that was almost undoable. And I thought I actually wrote novels, really? How? How did I, how did I manage that? But that, but I don't even miss that person, if that makes sense. I'm, you know, my daughter's just brought, she's just brought such joy and so many changes to my life. I don't want to go back to that person. Does she hold you to account, Jim Amanda? You know, this is really worth exploring, Emma.

We might need to get her on next time for this conversation or when she's ready. I mean, she's actually kind of, she's a tough critic. So this children's book that I've just written, she said when I first read the draft to her, she said, it's boring, Mama. What? So I thought, okay, that's helpful.

Always a delight listening to Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie there okay still to come on the program the artist and author fleur piretz on her mission to highlight same-sex marriage by trying to marry her wife julian in every country where it's legal and the comedian and writer dune mckeon on her life as a woman in comedy and remember that you can enjoy woman's hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, just subscribe to the daily podcast for free via the Woman's Hour website. Now, you'll no doubt be familiar with the book Frankenstein, but how much do you know about its author, Mary Shelley?

That's a question that led my next guests to write, direct and produce their new play that's about to start touring in the UK. Conception, Mary Shelley, the making of a monster, tells the story of a journey of self-discovery as the Frankenstein author returns years later to Lake Geneva where she wrote her famous novel. The play is hitting the stage around the 200th anniversary of the first publication of Frankenstein under Mary Shelley's name, having, of course, originally been published anonymously. I spoke to the play's producer, Deborah Clare, and director Lucy Speed, who told me about the production. She returns to the Diodati where she was hanging out with Lord Byron and Percy Shelley during the time she wrote Frankenstein at Byron's house, which was called the Diodati on Lake Geneva. And she returned, Villa Diodati, yes. And she

returns there on a sort of pilgrimage in our play. And we follow her sort of memories and recollections of that time. And it feels as though Mary Shelley as an author just seems to continually resonate with audiences. I was so shocked to hear it had been 200 years since Frankenstein was published under her name. There's an enduring quality about her. What is that? Well, mainly because she lived an incredible life

and she was a brilliant, brilliant writer. And also because we've kind of plagiarised and absorbed her stories and her work into all of our culture, into many, many a story that we will recognise on our screens. And also mainly the reason for us doing the play is because what she endured and what she went through and how she lived in society as a female hasn't changed very much today for females today you feel like she's still fighting the same issues and and the same battles i think personally as the director when i went to see barbie i went, this is Mary Shelley's story. And then I thought, well, it's every woman's story.

And I think it's about the expectations of society and how us as females, how from young to very old, fit in with society's expectations without realizing we're turning ourselves into a million things. And mainly for me as a mother and a career person, and somebody who's been a career person since I was eight years old in this industry I'm in, which has afforded me to play many different roles, I realized that what we do is we carry shame and guilt for doing everything, for doing so much and not always doing it to the best of our ability as we understand it. But what Mary Shelley's story tells us is that's what she was doing.

And then she wrote Frankenstein, which is on the set text. And she did that while she was juggling children, losing children, having miscarriages, following her husband and the love of her life life around collating all his work in order for him to be remembered and Byron to be remembered and juggling all those those those balls and society was telling her that she was doing it wrong society was telling her that she was ruining it for everyone because she wasn't happy society was telling her that you can't have the name on your own brilliant work because no woman should think like you so what for us Frankenstein is about is about the lack of female voices the lack her telling us she wasn't listened to and and and the hell that ensued after

that because if anybody has read any of Mary Shelley's other works that the females do take a lead and life turns out very differently. Debra your theatre company is run completely by women how do you think that influences the way you approach projects like these? We want to put women front and centre of the action that's's why I write. That's the whole reason for the theatre company coming into existence. So we want to write for women of all backgrounds. We want to particularly put women who are over the age of 40, perhaps over the age of 45.

Those women that people would rather just sort of went off, they've had their children, they're perhaps not very fanciful anymore. Society would just rather go away. We want to make women, particularly older women, visible. That's the whole point of the stories we tell. And the reason that we put women in prominent roles. We have Lucy, the director.

I'm the playwright. The cast is all women. We have Lucy, the director. I'm the playwright. The cast is all women. We have a fantastic younger actress. She's here with us, Tyra Gordon-Brown. She's here just as a younger female voice. Brilliant. And what we want to do is tell women's stories and make women visible.

You know, we find as well when we produce these plays that the majority of women that come to them are, well, they're older women. They want to hear the stories. They want to see themselves represented. as well when we produce these plays that the majority of women that come to them are uh well they're older women they want to hear the stories they want to see themselves represented and i think in this particular representation of mary shelley it is it it does women reflect all the time on themselves and we are asking this story how much as older people do we recognize our younger selves? And when we're younger, we're asked to make so many huge decisions that we're ill-equipped to make. And actually, if we were faced with our younger selves and asked and questioned each other about the decisions we've made, how would we feel about each other? And a lot of our guilt comes from, oh, I wouldn't have done that if this hadn't happened

or that hadn't happened and the whole point is is life makes you better equipped to come to the decisions you're asked to make when you're very young yeah and poor Mary Shelley of course um she had a mother we all have a mother um but uh you know, she died. Mary Wollstonecraft, she was a very famous feminist and she died 10 days after Mary was born. So she never had that guidance. She never had that guiding hand. And that was Mary Shelley's whole sort of reason for writing. She wanted to put her mother's ideas and mother's theories. She was a great activist, wasn't she? At the heart of her writing. Yes, she was a great activist.

So, yes, that's another aspect to all of this. And sort of that passing things down. Deborah Clare and Lucy Speed talking to me there. And some of you enjoyed that chat and have got in touch. This person says, thank you for the Mary Shelley article. We must tell our stories and be seen. These stories are not easy listening. Women's lives have been corseted for too long.

Emily Dickinson, Christina Rossetti, for example. To be female and creative is a tough journey. And Louise got in touch to say, I just named my puppy Mary Shelley Marlowe out of respect for the town we've lived in for 15 years. Thank you for your messages. Now how many countries do you think same-sex marriage is legal in at the moment? The artist and author Fleur Perrette knows that number all too well, especially because she made a decision six years ago to highlight it in a very personal way with her wife Julian. It was a journey and mission that cost them their life savings and was tragically cut short. The details of which are in a book called Julian, which has

been newly translated into English and released in the UK. Fleur Perrette spoke to Emma and told her how many countries same-sex marriage is legal in at the moment. In January, there will be 35 countries where we can get married. Yeah, when we started in 2017, it was 22. So things get better. The right direction. Yes. But still, I think people may be surprised by that number. Yes, it is. People don't know. And that's that's kind of obvious because yeah, of course, you know what's in your comfort zone. But I did feel like in 2017 that we had to do something about it because I do believe that change comes with knowledge. And we wanted to do a project that highlighted those numbers. And you came up with this project, I believe you said it to your wife just before going to bed. And then you woke up the next morning and she'd started planning.

What was the plan well um the plan was to get married in all the countries where same-sex marriage was legalized so 22 in 2017 um so not i mean i just for those who were like can you do that can you actually do that or you just you sort of stage it yes we stage it because otherwise we have to get divorced for 22 times so that takes off the romance. Excuse me, I've got to get a quick lawyer in this different country in a different language. So that was the plan? Yes, that was the plan.

Obviously, we didn't have the money to take on this journey. Who does? But we figured that if we sold everything that we have, we would make it to five weddings. And after that, we hoped that there would be some bus company or airplane company who wanted to sponsor us and that we could sleep on people's couches. So we kind of took a leap of faith. We sold everything that we had and we ended up with each one suitcase. And this was from where were you living at the time? In Spain.

You were in Spain. Yes, I'm from Belgium. Yes you living at the time? In Spain. You were living in the yes, I'm from Belgium. Yes. We live in we lived in the south of Spain. And the first stop on your journey was New York, New York. And it got a lot of attention, didn't it? It was crazy. Yeah. That was also the reason why we wanted to get married in New York. Because, you know, in Belgium and Holland, people are like, Oh, yeah, don't be so crazy, you know, just be normal. That's crazy enough. But we really needed to start this project off with a lot of energy. So New York is like crazy.

They marry 175 people a day. So everybody gets one minute. So we went there and we explained and we said like, but we need to document this because it's it's turning into a documentary and everything and so after we talked they said oh this is such an amazing project you know you get three minutes oh wow you really got promoted that because you know as you're saying here the project was to highlight where it wasn't legal yes and how few countries in comparison to the total number it was legal. And even if that number is going in the right direction, there's still a long way to go,

something we may get a chance to return to. But your wife started to feel a bit tired. Yes. And which was kind of normal because we were traveling for two months because we didn't have a house to go back to. We had to, yeah. On the road, keep moving. Yes, keep moving.

So we were both very tired. But at some point in Paris, after our fourth wedding, she felt dizzy. She saw things backwards. It was really strange. She needed to sleep a lot. So I really saw there was something wrong with her. So I took her to the hospital and she had like multiple tumors in her whole body that came from her brain.

And since I'm a really hands-on person, I asked the doctor, what can I do about this? And he said like, honey, she has six more weeks to go. So, yeah, that was terrible we were uh in paris um in a hospital uh we had nowhere to go to and and she uh yeah everything went bad so really fast you know within a few days she lost control of her arms, then her legs. Then she didn't recognize me at night, only during the day. Lost her speech. And after six weeks, she died.

It was crazy. I'm so sorry. Oh, thank you. It was terrible. Well, it is still terrible, obviously. How old was she? She was 40. Okay.

Yeah. And you'd been together sometime for seven years and we worked as an artist couple for seven years so we were like 24 7 all the time all the time working together we had an online magazine about queer issues and queer artists and and so we were working together and and yeah after she died it was like like, yeah, now what, you know? And what was what? I mean, what happened? What did you do? Well, I was left with two suitcases and 125 euros on my bank account.

So I have nothing left. So I slept on people's couches and I started working in kitchens to do the dishes because I'm an art historian and I could have easily gotten a job. But I did feel that I needed to write the story down because otherwise I would lose my memories. Obviously, your memories change. And I was so scared that I would lose those memories too.

Then I would have literally nothing left so I worked in kitchens at night doing dishes and during the day I wrote this book um it got it got uh released five years ago in Belgium and now it's it's translated in English so it's this kind of time warp to talk about it all over again. It must feel quite different these years on talking about it. I imagine it was very raw when it came out. Yes. And I did a lot. It became a bestseller in Holland and in Belgium.

So I did a lot of television, but it was kind of in a blur. And I do feel that now there's so much, so much changed. You know, there are five books in between, in between the first one and now. But also, it's a big lie that time heals all wounds. That's a really big lie. It does not. But it makes the sharp edges a bit more manageable. How are you now?

It's weird. I'm here in London all by myself. So I have nobody to reflect to, you know, when I come out here, I go and eat by myself with a book and things like that. But it's also it's also good because I because I didn't have anything left five years ago. I went into the survival mode and I literally took every opportunity I had to earn money because I wanted to rent an apartment and live by myself. And be able to write as well. Yes. Yeah. And so now it's been five years since she died. And it's the first time I can actually financially say no to things.

So it's so weird because I'm 50 years old and it's like I'm in my 20s starting all over, which is kind of weird, you know? Yeah, it must be. And I mean, but a huge achievement for you to get from there to here, I imagine, you know, emotionally, but also practically. Well, it wasn't really a choice for me. It wasn't really a choice because how beautiful this story was about all the weddings. We did get a lot of negativity. People were talking about that. We were promoting the homosexual lifestyle. We had a lot of death threats when we started to get married. And when Julian died, the males got

even worse. It was a punishment of God. She deserved to die. They wished for her to have a very painful death. People wrote that to you. It's amazing. Yeah. And so when she died, something really weird happened in my mind. I kind of got angry. And I did realize that people aren't necessarily bad people. They are just uninformed. So I kind of realized that my job is not done yet. So that's what kept me going all those years and after her death, because obviously it was devastating and very traumatic and everything. But it did feel like, oh, I've got so much more work to do. So I kept on writing. I'm a public speaker. I speak at companies. I speak everywhere where they want me to. I speak about human rights because it's so important. Fleur Peretz was talking to Emma. Earlier this week, Emma also spoke to comedy actor and writer Dune McKeon. She cemented her reputation with the double Emmy award-winning Smack the Pony, which she co-created and starred in, as well as Brass Eye and Two Doors Down,

the experience of which are written in the aptly named My Lady Parts, her new memoir. She started by commenting on the recent Russell Brand allegations making the headlines and whether this was comedy's Me Too moment. I think it goes on in other places apart from comedy, on film sets, in theatre, dressing rooms and across the board. But I think having been a stand up in the 80s, it was a pretty ugly culture of boys club misogyny. I was often the only woman on the bill. It sort of created

this ground where seeds were sown for people like Russell to be able to in the 90s, get away with the sort of things he was talking about. It was sort of banter. It was sort of lads club. It was acceptable. It was, oh, you know, get over yourself. It was laddy. Supposedly alternative comedy was meant to break through that. We were getting rid of, we weren't, you know, when I was on Halen Pace, my first TV job,

I was shamed for having hairy legs and all the camera crew beamed up my legs onto all the screens around now maybe that maybe that wouldn't yeah yeah I refused to shave my legs I think the makeup lady came over scuttled over when I was in my very short frock um as Cinderella in the Christmas special my first tv job ever I was 22 and said we need to shave your legs and I went well I don't she said we need to shave your leg. And I went, well, I don't want to. She said, we need to shave your legs? Yeah, yeah. And I said, I don't want to. She said, well, I'm afraid the whole team has requested it. So I was like, well, and luckily, I mean, I was 22.

It was my first telly. Luckily, I said, no, I don't want to. So then I walked back up on stage and the all-male crew, who'd been passing around porn mags, focused in on my legs and started singing, Gillette, the best a man can get. And my legs were just beamed up on all the screens. And I stood there in my little dress.

And it was just a, it was a sort of, it was an awful moment, but it didn't destabilise me. If anything, it probably galvanised me a bit. Because even coming out of the dressing room at the end, Jim Davison shouted down the corridor. I'm not allowed to say that, but. Right, well, it's okay. Anyway, I said it now.

Not only has she got hairy legs, she's wearing men's shoes because I had a pair of DMs on and it was, you know, I was with my mum. Doc Martens, in case anyone's thinking direct message. Yeah. I mean, Jim's not here to tell us how that went for him. But, and you also mentioned about Russell Brannan enabling. I think what you were actually meaning there,

as opposed to the allegations, is what he's on the record of saying, the type of comedy. We've heard some of the clips that were included, even on the BBC Airwaves, you know, when he interviewed Jimmy Savile and offered up his producer as a woman to Jimmy Savile. There are moments that, you know, Tim Davey, the director general of the BBC, has talked about re-listening.

I don't know if it was to that exact clip, but some of what was said then and sort of thinking, and it's not that long ago, you know, it wasn't in the 80s. It wasn't in the 90s. It's talking about alternative comedy and what that was meant to do. And you being at the vanguard of that, I'm very interested to hear for you as well. You know, I was very struck in your book as well.

Some of the names that we still remember and know have become household names. A lot of them meant from that era. And the women haven't necessarily, some have, haven't become either the biggest earners or those household names. How do you take a step back from that and look at that now? Well, I just think, you know, we were all pitching shows in the 80s. We all had ideas that we wanted to. And I remember going in, I'm afraid,

going into the BBC and pitching a very good idea and um the producer just turned to a big picture of French and Saunders and said well we've got our girls you know um we've got our girls so it's really hard to get anything away so we've got two we've got two women and yeah and that's it that's that's that's uh and you know there's there's comedians who had like six failed pilots and they would still be being given another one. And women have gone, well, I've got this and this and this idea and it wasn't being picked up. So you'd think after Smack the Pony,

there would be a raft of female-led, you know, shows. A couple of Emmys can't hurt. Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. I mean, not that that's the only barometer of it, but you would think. Yeah, you'd think, well, should we... Lots of people on the... I've been on a little book tour, have just been going, why, you'd think, well, should we? Lots of people on the I've been on a little book tour have just been gone. Why? You know, can you bring it back?

But there's so many other female shows that could be out there. It didn't ignite. What do you think was the reason it didn't ignite? Because, you know, some may say also it's just a horribly competitive industry. But you sound like you're driving at something else. I think I'm just as talented as a lot of men who got their shows made. I didn't get my my my show made your next show, my next show made or the show before Smack the Pony or the show before before Smack the Pony. Women just weren't commissioned.

And so they didn't get they didn't get there. There was often a trajectory of going from stand up to your pilot on radio to then your radio thing going on to telly. And I was often the feed in male comics shows. I'd be the dimwit secretary or the nag or the ball-breaking dominatrix. And you talk about this lady parts. Yeah, yeah. What are the lady parts? And you've tried to disrupt that. Yeah, all the stereotypes that we were playing as sort of feeds.

What was brilliant in Smack the Pony is we've all been straight women to the men and suddenly we were the straight women and the funny women. So it was great. We were feeding each other and it was wonderful that we could just play in that space. Well, you've rejected a lot of the stereotypes

and I hadn't seen, I mean, I knew it was, I knew it was how we spoke, but I hadn't seen it. And that's why it felt so fresh when I watched Smack the Pony. I knew it was how women were, but I hadn't seen it. And that's why it felt so fresh when I watched Smack the Pony. I knew it was how women were, but it wasn't how we were seen. We were not seen because we were either coiffed or dressed as a nurse or being very strict in a sort of office situation. We were just put into stereotypes and we were often just feeding the men.

The line before the gag was ours ours and do you think it's better where are we now it's better but it's not great there's more amazing female-led content but not enough we don't see enough female stories there's not enough there are no sort of so few sort of hero stories for women um so that there could be so much more and uh i i think there's a long way to go you also share personal anecdotes lots of personal anecdotes in this book um you've also talked about there being at times when you were being more of a stay-at-home mother role as well yeah i say a role it's not you acting it but but it's a nice mom it's a role yeah um and then you wanted to work and and also

then how how you navigate that because there's a particular experience with um with your son i should say um he who was admitted to hospital with leukemia and you talk about that in the book i should say he's now in remission i understand but you you really wanted to try and turn that experience as well to work uh i know but you had had to navigate that, which is a big thing. I obviously had to take time off. And so did my ex-husband, we had to had to be in hospital, we had a baby and an older daughter. It was it was a terrible time. And, of course, then I stayed home. But then we ran out of money. So I had to go and do a it was a farce in the West End, which was I was just sort of crying crying all the time. But what's interesting is I went home one night and I remember turning on the TV and watching Russell Brand doing his stand-up and feeling so angry about him and just the way he was and the sort of comedy he was doing.

I turned the TV off and I sat down at the kitchen table and I started writing a show called Prima Duna, which was about my son in hospital. A woman just standing up on stage is a massive feminist statement. It's so hard to be confident enough to do that. I thought, right, I need to write a show about this. And so then I had another year of writing and I wrote a show called Prima Duna about my son's experience in hospital, which, yeah, which I'm very proud of. Yes. And being able to perhaps use something and the learnings from that will have related to people more than you realize if you can make art that makes people laugh and cry I think that's always the best kind of art but also sometimes we

do have to stay at home and that's wonderful I've turned down lots of work to to go actually I just don't want to be in a Winnebago with two babies I I want to be in the garden. And yes, I'm really poor, but I'm just going to stay at home for a bit. And then go, actually, I really want to get away from these kids. Actually, let me bring them with me. Let's see, you know, bringing your kids with you is also extremely hard.

There's no creches. There's not extra money for childcare. That's another massive thing that has to change. Dune McKeon calling for progress there and some reaction from a listener. Annabelle texted us to say, Smack the Pony is the ultimate comedy. Just the most brilliant example to women, girls, boys and men.

And respect to all the Smack the Pony collective. Still weep with laughter thinking about their brilliant work. As do I. Thank you for getting in touch. That's all from me today. Do join Emma Barnett on Monday, where we'll be hearing about a new TV drama detailing the five year hunt for the serial killer Peter Sutcliffe. Have a lovely rest of your weekend. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.