Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Ruth Wilson, Young women and voting, Jing Lusi

Episode Date: April 20, 2024

This week, Ruth Wilson explains why she’s running this year’s London Marathon for an Alzheimer’s research, following in the footsteps of her father who ran the first London Marathon in 1981.Tuesday was the deadline to register to vote in the local elections on May 2nd. The most recent data suggest that 4.3 million young people in England aren’t currently registered. We hear from Sharon Gaffka, who’s supporting the Give an X campaign, that's calling on young people to get involved. A survey by the youth led charity My Life My Say also says that fewer than 1 in 6 of young women trust politicians and more than four in 10 believe their vote won’t make a difference in an election. We also hear from Rosie Campbell, Professor of Politics and Director of the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership at King’s College London, to explain the trends behind the latest data.Social media platform Meta disabled Soul Sisters Pakistan for 43 hours earlier this month due to an intellectual property violation. Soul Sisters Pakistan was set up 11 years ago by the entrepreneur and activist Kanwal Ahmed as a support system for women to discuss topics considered taboo in Pakistani society, such as sex and divorce. In the past, the group has been accused by some of promoting divorce and 'wild' behaviour. With over 300,000 members, who dub themselves soulies, In 1927 journalist Sophie Treadwell attended the sensational trial of Ruth Snyder, a New York woman accused murdering her husband. Ruth was found guilty, along with her accomplice lover Henry Judd Gray, and both were executed by electric chair in January 1928. Those events inspired Sophie Treadwell to write the play Machinal, which premiered on Broadway later that year. A recent production has just transferred from the Theatre Royal Bath to the Old Vic in London and its star, Rosie Sheehy, along with US academic Dr Jessie Ramey join Jessica to discuss the case of Ruth Snyder and why Machinal still resonates with audiences today.Professor Netta Weinstein of the University of Reading, is the co-author of a new book, Solitude: The Science and Power of Being Alone and joins us to discuss the benefits of solitude.Jing Lusi stars as DC Hana Li in ITV’s new thriller Red Eye, set on a plane flying between London and Beijing. She joins Jessica Creighton to talk about what it’s like to play a lead role for the first time, and how important it is to see British East Asian women as the main progatonistPresenter Anita Rani Producer Annette Wells

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani, featuring all the best bits of the week just gone. In a moment, we'll hear from the actor Ruth Wilson and why she's running in this weekend's London Marathon. We also have Jing Lucy, the actor who stars in a groundbreaking new TV series on what drew her to the role. When I first read the script, I just couldn't put it down. But firstly, what struck me was the character of Hannah usually is reserved for a man in that kind of role. And then I was like, she's a woman. And then I was like, she's a woman and then I was like she's an East Asian woman.

This is just unheard of. We'll also hear from a woman who founded a community support group on Facebook for women to discuss topics that are often considered taboo in Pakistani society such as sex and divorce. We'll discuss why recent data suggests that 4.3 million young people in England aged 18 to 34 aren't currently registered to vote and solitude and the benefits of it. So no disruptions for the next hour, just you and the radio. First, the actor Ruth Wilson is instantly recognisable for her roles in Luther, The Affair and playing her own grandmother in the 2018 BBC drama Mrs Wilson. But on Sunday, she may be harder to spot than usual

because she will be one of more than 50,000 people taking part in the London Marathon. Ruth will be running alongside her three brothers and her nephew to raise money for Alzheimer's Research UK following her dad Nigel's diagnosis. Marathon running isn't new for the Wilson family. Nigel himself took part in the very isn't new for the Wilson family. Nigel himself took part in the very first London Marathon back in 1981. Well on Thursday Jessica Crichton asked her how easy a decision it had been to put on her running shoes. It was quite random. I think probably one of my brothers suggested the idea and um and then we all tried to get into the

ballot um none of us managed to achieve that and then I thought well look I could try and get through on the charity Alzheimer's Research UK so we did that and we all got on and it's amazing we've we thought we didn't think we'd all make it actually to the start line and it's incredible five of us running my nephew is Theo he's 18 so he'll be one of the youngest running okay and then yeah all my three brothers as well so it's gonna be a family affair you didn't think you'd make it because the training would be so difficult busy schedules I've got dodgy knees dodgy knees so we didn't know if our knees would make it they've made it well done you know over five months of training wow and it's actually really amazing to see you get stronger and fitter and faster you know you have to do three runs a week and then on the sunday do a really long run

and they get longer each week and so it's amazing it's kind of been a really great thing for all of us to do and now that it's so close only a few days away what stage are you at what do you do to the in these last three days to prep it's called carb load oh that sounds good to me a lot of eating bread and pasta and oh it's quite revolting but anyway that's what we have to do now. It's one little run left just to keep your legs moving, but that's it now. Now, you're running this with your three older brothers and being the youngest, does it bring out your competitive side?

I often find when I go back home and I'm with my siblings, it all goes back to when we were children. I think that we're all hoping just to get over the line, but there's definitely um desires to reach certain targets and we've all been on tracking each other's training so we can see how each other are doing but yes I think it will get competitive out there but my my dad did it in a very so my dad like you said he ran the very first marathon in 1981 and he ran it in three hours 15 minutes my goodness me yeah for a non-professional that is incredible yeah he vowed never to do it again okay um i think he hit the wall in the last

few miles i'm not surprised will you get anywhere close to that time do you think no no no i'm not likely to get anywhere near that but one of or two of my brothers might be attempting it. So we might have to pick them up on the way if they collapse. But yeah, we'll see what happens. Brilliant. Yeah, we're all raising for Alzheimer's Research UK because obviously my dad was diagnosed a few years ago. And how has your father's diagnosis affected you and the rest of the family?

It's been, you know, it's really sad. He's done amazingly, actually. He was diagnosed a few years ago, and we're coping as a family as well as anyone could. My mum has been extraordinary with him, and they're a real team, the two of them. They've learned how to communicate with each other and learned what sort of dad needs and what he values.

He's still, you know, he's a big sportsman. So he loves watching anything that's on TV, rugby, cricket, everything else. He still exercises twice a week. And he's got a peloton in the house. So we're very active. But it's, you know, it's a really cruel disease, because he's very aware of what he can't now do and communication is very difficult so those things are really difficult for everyone to deal with but we're doing as well as we can and there's loads of help in the community and sort of groups that meet up and see each other so I think there's lots of people that suffer with this. Alzheimer's is one of our biggest killers in this country and we're on the edge of finding a cure and or being able to sort of hand out a cure. I think there's two more drugs at the

moment which are being, we're waiting to be approved but the more support and help we can put into research and more money we can put into that, the closer we get to either a cure or certainly something that can help reduce the effects of Alzheimer's and dementia. Yeah, of course. And you saying there that your dad is still very active, will he be able to come out and support you on the day, do you think? He'll be there. Yeah, my mum and dad will be there, plus many other family members. So we're going to have, yeah, a whole crowd, Wilson crowd somewhere. He'll be so proud, won't he? Because obviously he's run it himself and then seeing his children

do it as well will be such a special moment for him. Yeah, I think there'll probably be a few tears somewhere along the line and probably at the end, definitely. Now, just a word on your acting, because it's just been announced very recently that you'll be starring alongside Emma Thompson in an adaptation of Mick Herron's Down Cemetery Road. He's, of course, best known for his spy thriller that was adapted into the TV drama Slow Horses. Exciting announcement. How are you feeling about that new role? Yeah, it's great. It's very exciting. We don't start shooting till June.

So we're still in the sort of prep stage. But no, I'm thrilled. I love Slow Horses and I love Mick Herron's books. They're really smart, very dry witted, and kind of land on something quite interesting about sort of corruption very close to the home or very domesticated. This one is slightly different to the Slow Horses series in that it is set in Oxford in the suburbs of Oxford. And my character is a sort of bored housewife who becomes an amateur sleuth and starts finding herself in kind of the dirty underworld. And she hires a private detective who is the sort of Emma Thompson character, Zoe Boheme. So it's the two of them you know start sleuthing away brilliant uh

thank you so much Ruth for coming on to the program now you're running on Sunday we'd love to have you back on on Monday to to let us know how it went see if I got round yeah well no we have every faith that you'll make it to the end but you know you can tell us about the experience I might be on a stretcher I might be lying down I down, I'm not sure, I'll be sitting in my bed. That's fine. I'll call it my bed. Okay that's absolutely fine any way that you can get to us will be absolutely fantastic. Ruth Wilson speaking to Jess there and good luck on Sunday Ruth and do come back on Monday to tell us how it went. Now Tuesday was the last day to register to vote in elections on the 2nd of May. They're taking place in 107 local authorities across England.

Voters will also choose the Mayor of London, London Assembly members, 10 mayors outside the capital and 37 police and crime commissioners, or PCCs. So a lot is at stake. But the most recent data suggests that 4.3 million young people in England aged 18 to 34 aren't currently registered to vote. A separate survey by the youth-led non-partisan movement My Life, My Say has also found that fewer than one in six young women aged 18 to 24 trusts politicians, and more than four in 10 young women believe their vote won't make a difference in an election. Jessica was joined by Sharon Gafka, former Love Island contestant and now

a spokesperson for the campaign Give an X, which is organised by My Life, My Say, which is calling on young people to get registered to vote. She also spoke to Rosie Campbell, Professor of Politics and Director of the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at King's College London. Jessica started by asking Sharon what the data said and how many of these are women. Actually, I think the amount of young people that are missing from the electoral roll could make up the UK's second largest city. And we know that a majority of these young people don't have any interest in showing up to vote because they don't believe that it will make a difference. And actually, I think it's around about 50% of these young people think that voting for reality TV actually makes more of a difference than voting in their local elections or in the general election.

Really? Yeah, it's quite a stark difference. And actually participating in reality TV and in politics quite actively. It's something that I've experienced throughout the years. Rosie, what's behind that? Why do young women in particular not feel as though their vote counts? Well, there isn't particularly a gap between young men and young women on this. Women are just as likely to participate in elections as men are. But indeed, you know, there is a big gap with younger people being less likely to register and less likely to vote. It's always been the case, but it has increased over time. And I think there's a disconnect between our politics and the issues that motivate young

people sometimes. And I think it can be a vicious circle because the more older people vote, the more likely political parties are to develop policies designed to please pensioners rather than young people who are struggling to get on the housing ladder, for example. So when we say over time, how long are we looking at and when did this trend begin, I suppose? Turnout in the UK has declined since the 1970s. Younger people have always been less likely to vote. And as that turnout decline has happened, a greater proportion of young people are therefore in the

category of those who are not voting. Right. And in terms of the issues between young women and young men in particular, is there a difference in what they're concerned about? Now, that is where there's a difference. So they're just as likely to turn up and participate in an election. But there is a growing divide on some issues between young men and young women. So women under 50 are now more likely to support the Labour Party than the men. But if you look in the youngest generations, there's a big gap with women more likely to support the Greens, young men more likely to support the Conservatives or reform. And on some issues around particularly attitudes towards gender equality, there is a divergence with young women being on some items, you know, more passionately feminist and young men more feeling that feminism has let everybody down.

Have you recognised that trend, Sharon, when you've been speaking to people? actually talking to a lot of young women what I say resonates with them and you know when I'm speaking I'm speaking for them and things that people that follow me have told me and people that I've met out at specific political events or young people engagement but it's one thing I've always found no matter the age category but it is particularly with young men is that I get a lot of negative backlash or comments thinking that being a feminist or feminism is going against young men, is that I get a lot of negative backlash or comments thinking that being a feminist or feminism is going against young men, as opposed to trying to put women on an equal footing to some of these young men. And another of the issues that we've highlighted is that the lack of trust that young women have in politicians, where does that stem from, do you think? I mean, we're seeing it quite often, the level of misogyny or misogynoir that

sits within Parliament. We saw what has been happening to Diane Abbott and the way that politicians deal with it. And politicians should be a reflection of society when we see that, you know, we keep being told that we have more female MPs than ever. But are these female MPs, firstly, it's disproportionate to the number of women in the UK, but are these women, female MPs, actually really advocating for what young women are really looking for? So, you know, when I come to the ballot paper, is there an equal number of women that I'm potentially able to vote for? And are these women representative of intersectional feminism or not? What do you feel is behind this distrust among young women? Well, I don't think young women are necessarily more distrustful than young men. But I think some of the issues that you've raised, particularly resonant with young women, obviously.

And we do have a gap in terms of there are fewer women in Parliament. But that really varies by party. You know, over 50% of Labour MPs are women. So the other parties really need to catch up. So I think that issue of seeing representation and intersectional representation is critical. So not being able to see it, so not believing it? Well, I think we know that it is important. Having more women in politics has made a huge difference to our society. Things like childcare, domestic violence, they were not political issues

30, 40 years ago. They're standard political issues now. So there are issues that are off the table because certain groups of women are not as actively represented as others. So how do you, okay, so there's clearly young women out there who have issues that they're concerned about, but they believe that their vote won't make a difference. So how do you narrow that gap? How do you explain to them that voting is worth it, Sharon? I think so going back to the Give a Next campaign, obviously, we were talking about how a lot of the time the issues we don't see ourselves represented. And that's the same with young people. And I think that, you know, voting isn't the only thing that we can do in democracy and to be to be active politically and to sway policymakers into making policy that actually does well for young people and for young women. But voting and registering to vote and starting to turn up to the election days is actually the start. Having our voices being heard, the reason why policymakers

aren't necessarily listening to these groups of people is because they're not the biggest people that turn out to voting. So why should they listen to you? Because they want to win votes. So to win votes, you have to be able to be able to go to vote. It's almost a catch-22 though, isn't it, Rosie? It is a catch-22. And I think sometimes we've been very lucky in this country for a long time that perhaps we've got to the point we can take democracy a bit for granted. But democracy is fragile. And we need young people to get involved, join political parties and change them from the inside so that we have a democracy that works for us, because it won't if we sit on the sidelines. What could be the impact on the local election results if we see that the trends from this survey actually become a reality?

I'm afraid that turnout in local elections is very low and very, very low amongst young people. So there'll be nothing unexpected if that's what happens in this set of local elections. And then we know that there's likely to be a general election by the end of this year. So then how is that impacted? How can you make sure that what happens in the local elections isn't then happening again for the general elections and that more young people are getting involved? Well, I think that parties and politicians have got a moral duty to put forward policies that will excite and motivate young people. To be as strategic as you describe and just go after those who are definitely going to vote is long-term catastrophe

because in the longer term, today's younger people are going to be tomorrow's middle-aged people and we need to actually draw them into our democratic processes and make them interested to vote and make them participate to create that virtuous circle rather than the vicious circle that you described. Jessica speaking to Rosie Campbell and Sharon Gafka. Now, joining Jessica on Wednesday was the entrepreneur and activist Kaval Ahmed, founder of Soul Sisters Pakistan, a community support group on Facebook. It was created 11 years ago for women to discuss topics

that were often considered taboo in Pakistani society, such as sex and divorce. Earlier this month, Facebook disabled the group for 43 hours due to an intellectual property violation. It gave Kaval's work global attention. In the past, the group has been accused by some of promoting divorce and wild behaviour. Since the group's reinstatement, Kaval has announced she's starting a new platform.

She joined Jessica and told her how this incredible network of more than 300,000 women first got started. Soul Sisters Pakistan started off really small. It was just 5,000 women. And I got inspired because before that in 2011, I was a makeup artist. I used to hear stories all the time of women telling me of the kind of issues they were facing, particularly around their marriages or around the kind of oppression they had to face, be it something as small as not being able to choose her own wedding dress to larger things like forced marriages or not knowing enough about her body rights. And it occurred to me that why don't these women have a place to go? Why aren't

their parents listening? Why don't they have someone to talk to at home? Why are they telling me their stories? And so I was inspired to start Soul Sisters Pakistan. It started off as a very tight knit small group, but it very, even though we were just 5000 women, everybody outside of the group was talking about it, be it at weddings, be it on dinner tables, everybody was like, there is this secret network of women and they seem to be talking about things that we shouldn't talk about. They're airing their dirty laundry. They're talking about things women should never discuss. How can these women have the audacity to talk about divorce or, you know, leaving their husbands or getting married again or, you know, anything or everything that is, you know, looked down upon in certain parts of our

society. So it had a very bold start. And over the last 10 years, we've just grown. We've been threatened, we've been defamed, we are regularly trolled. And the most amazing thing is that even if outside the group, we are being talked about in a negative manner. When you're inside the group, you will only feel empowered because every woman is another woman's friend. And this is quite ironic, given that in South Asian culture, you grew up hearing that women are each other's enemies. So we've literally changed that around and shown that no, actually, we're all each other's friends. You've mentioned some of the issues that the women are coming to you with, body rights, choosing a wedding dress even. What else are they telling you over the last 11 years?

So we've, you know, we've literally heard it all, be it sexual harassment at work, be it financial rights, be it inheritance rights. In Pakistan, there is a lot of issues surrounding inheritance rights of women. So a lot of women get deprived of their fair share of inheritance because it's taken away from them. And again, this is something that's shoved under the rug because the patriarchy obviously doesn't want women to ever know

that they have the right to inheritance as well. So brothers often or brothers or uncles often take it away and they leave the woman with nothing. Similarly, if a woman is undergoing emotional or physical abuse, she is told by her elders to stay quiet, be patient, things will get better, he'll calm down as you grow older or go pop, you know, a couple of kids out and he's going to get busy. He's going to start loving you again. If a woman complains of infidelity, she's told, oh, you must not be trying hard enough. It must be the fact that you've gained weight or that you don't look pretty when he comes home or the fact that you have children now, so you're not dressing up enough for him. So it's always

the woman who's blamed in several situations. And because this platform gave women the validation that no, it's not you who's the problem. You are somebody who's living under subjugation or oppression, or the fact that you do have equal rights is what really angers a lot of people. So this safe space is providing, I suppose, a valuable resource in terms of support. And it's great that women are able to vent in your group. Does it lead to change behavior? Does it lead to the different outcomes for these women that they wouldn't have had previously? 110%. And I would say that even my own behaviors changed over the last 10 years. There are so many things that I have unlearned over time. And I'll give you a really brief example. About four years ago, when I launched my show Conversations with Kaval,

there was a woman who came up to me at one of our networking events. And she said, I just want to have a word with you. And I said, sure. And she told me that she posted on Soul Sisters Pakistan that she was about to leave a marriage where she had borne emotional abuse. She was pregnant. So she was very scared of being a single mother, particularly from a conservative family. And she said that when I went on the group, I literally had no idea whether I should keep the baby, whether I should leave the marriage, and whether or not I would be able to provide for myself and my child in this world.

And when she posted on the group, hundreds of women reached out to her. Someone gave her a job. Someone, you know, multiple single mothers said that, you know, if we did it, you can too. We're here to listen to you, to be there for you every single day. Anyway, fast forward two months later, she got a divorce. She moved out. She took that job. And now four years later, she's doing two jobs. She's extremely happy. She drives a scooter around Karachi, which is not a very women driving a scooter friendly place. And her daughter sits in the back seat of that scooter. And she tells her

mother that I'm so proud of the fact that people smile at us when we're out on the roads. Her name is Zainab. We've even covered her story on the show. And she's just one of the many women who've literally seen their lives change simply through the access of a good female network. Wow. So it's actually leading to tangible change. How do women sign up for this you you mentioned earlier that it's like a secret group a secret network um how do you find women or do they find you so uh the group on facebook is um very much searchable although there's like tons of fake ones now too so um it's like copycat groups. Yes, copycat groups. And then some are led by men because they want to use them to, you know, trap women, lure them in, etc.

But ours pretty much will stand out because you'll be able to see who the admin is, which is going to be me. You'll be able to distinguish it from the cover photo. And then, as you also mentioned in your introduction, we are shifting out to our own platform called HeySoli. Although HeySoli is still being built, I think the best thing, the best asset I would say I have right now is that everyone or anybody who's starting a product looks for the people who would use it. I have the community already and these people are my advisors. They're my sounding boards they're my cheerleaders and my supporters so we're kind of going to build this together and I don't know whether this is going to fail or if it's going to succeed but I do know that this is worth everyone

trying and you know putting their best foot forward and kind of I don't know like working together to make some magic happen and And what do you hope it becomes? How do you hope to help even further? I want it to be a hybrid of content and community as well as digital upskilling. So I do always want it to be a place where women find other women, but also be a place of learning and sharing skills. So that is something of a hybrid that we're looking to create right now. You've done some incredible work, and it's clearly making a difference to many women's

lives. Kavil Ahmed, thank you so much. Founder of Soul Sisters Pakistan. I do here have a statement from the parent company of Facebook, Meta, about taking down the group, which was down for 43 hours. A Meta company spokesperson said, we notified the group admins of the status of the page, which related to repeated violations of our IP policies. The enforcement was not related to other posts made by the group. Jessica speaking to Kaval Ahmed there. Still to come on the programme, actor Jing Lucy on how important it is to see British East Asian women as the main protagonist and the benefits of solitude.

And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. All you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Now on Tuesday, Jessica met Rosie Sheehy, who stars in the play Mackinac, inspired by Sophie Treadwell's 1928 production of the same name. It's based on the sensational trial of Ruth Snyder, who was found guilty of

murdering her husband and executed by electric chair in New York. They were joined by Dr. Jesse Ramey, Associate Professor of Women's and Gender Studies and History at Chatham University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. They discussed how a play that was originally produced almost 100 years ago is still relevant to modern audiences. Jessica began by asking Rosie what it was like to play the character of Ruth Snyder. It's exhausting emotionally, I guess, but it's nine episodes, so you're being kind of propelled along.

I sometimes just say to myself, just step on the train. Just take the first step. Yeah, just get on the train and then it'll take you to the end. Well, it was a phenomenal performance. Thank you. Jessie, first, let's just get some context here.

Who was Ruth Snyder? Because this is a character that has inspired so many different books, plays, films. But tell us, who was Ruth Snyder? Well, Ruth Snyder was a pretty average middle class, white, suburban housewife living outside of New York City when she had an affair with, of all things, a corset salesman. And the two of them plotted to kill her husband. And so the trial became a media sensation. She was absolutely a household name. As you said, this is 1927

when Ruth Snyder and Judd Gray committed this murder. So why was it such a sensation? Because this got so much publicity, everything, the trial, the execution itself was well publicized. This was huge. The trial was a media circus. It's hard to overstate what a big deal this was. It was on the front page of all the papers. The tabloid press and the traditional press covered this trial for every single day. There were 1500 people who sat in the courtroom and thousands of people outside. The murder was committed with a sash weight and there were souvenir vendors selling little sash weight stick pins. They were selling counterfeit tickets to get

into this trial. Really a massive media circus. Everybody was anybody sat through this trial. So just to give you a sense of where this play came from, you had folks like the filmmaker D.W. Griffith was in the courtroom, the songwriter Irving Bird Lynn, the producers of the soon-to-be-written Chicago, the musical, of course, about women murderers in prison. And the author, James Cain, went to this trial and based his very classic film, Double Indemnitynity on this case. So there's a real long cultural tale on the Ruth Snyder case. Wow. And something that struck me was that there was a photo that was put on the front page of one of the biggest newspapers in the country as Ruth Snyder was being executed, as she was being electrocuted on the chair. Yes. So she was found guilty,

she and her lover both. they were both executed in New York in 1928 in the electric chair. She was not the first woman to be electrocuted, but this very famous photograph was taken by a journalist who snuck a camera into the execution chamber and snapped the picture. It was on the front page, as you said, the next day. It was a huge scandal. It led to changes, actually, in the way they handled executions. But that also created even more drama around an already very large media circus. Rosie, you're sitting across from me in the studio, shaking your head at some of that. How much were you aware of before you took on the role that your character is inspired by, obviously, being Ruthnyder yeah i was very aware um i initially saw

the play when i was about 20 years old and was completely blown away i saw a drama school production of it but then our play veers off my i play a young woman but who eventually is named helen jones halfway through the play we don't find out until right towards the end what her actual name is. Yeah. That was obviously done on purpose. Yeah, it is. I think it's slight.

You hear Helen in like episode five and then she's named in the trial. And I think Sophie Treadwell's trying to, it's sort of a playwright's device to sort of start to name her or make her individual when things start to become criminal or illegal or illicit. But before that, episodes one to four, she's named as the young woman. So I suppose that's making a point that it could be anyone. How would you describe the character that you play? Because

I was watching her so closely, just, I suppose, engrossed by the claustrophobic nature of her surroundings and how she wanted to break free from absolutely every scene apart from one. I suppose engrossed by the claustrophobic nature of her surroundings and how she wanted to break free from absolutely every scene apart from one. I mean, she has all the qualities of a human being. We see her really vicious quite early on. But I often think that she'd prefer to just be by herself. She needs somebody who's... Oh, she's somebody who needs time by herself.

And yet that's not going to happen at all in her life. She's always overstimulated, always drowned by the noise or by being nitpicked by her mum or the minutia of life. You know, the intricacies of getting the tube and having a man stand too close to you or having unwanted attention, male attention in an office or gossiping. Yes, as well as the big things, which are like convention and female expectation of having a baby. And with that came some mental health issues. What role does mental health play in your character's life? Because we definitely see postnatal depression, which perhaps wouldn't have been diagnosed as that in the 1920s. But we would know it as that today yeah um sophie treadwell does an incredible job of not giving

any diagnosis um i know that she herself suffered um nervous conditions as a young woman and then she suffered with them for the rest of her life but whenever whenever I've researched her, there's no real diagnosis. So I guess she's trying to depict somebody who we might say is neurodivergent. We might say is sensitive to sound or to light. But so yeah, it played a big role. I sort of did a lot of research on mania and depression. And yeah, as you said, postnatal depression.

But I think the point that Sophie's trying to make is that it could be, if you put any human being under that much duress, those conditions develop as a side effect, as a symptom. It's not something that she was necessarily born with or it's in her DNA. So environmental, right? Yeah, yeah, that's it. Intrinsic. And Jessie, you've written about this play, Sophie Treadwell's play, of which Macanel is based, on how it speaks to women's roles within society at that time and the expectations put on them.

Yeah, the Ruth Snyder case really at its core was about gender. And the reason that it was such a big media sensation was that it really is in this fraught moment, right in 1927, 1928. This is just a few years after white women in the United States have just gained access to the vote in 1920. But women still can't serve on juries in most states. So she's not going to be tried by a jury of her peers, for instance. And so many rights have not yet been won by women. And yet, it's the 1920s. It's the flapper age. It's the jazz age. There's all this concern about women getting the vote and becoming modernized. So the concerns and the conversation happening around the case are all about are women getting too many rights, right? So you've got men writing

into newspapers saying, if Ruth Snyder's not executed, then no man is going to be safe to sleep in his bed, right? So lots of concerns about modernity, about gender, about whether or not Ruth was too sexual or not feminine enough. So those are the kinds of conversations happening in this case. And the themes that are explored within Macanel are still relevant to audiences today. Yeah, absolutely. Everything that's the themes of every episode still happen to every woman today. Yeah, absolutely. Everything that's, the themes of every episode still happen to every woman today. It's incredibly relatable, that kind of gossiping in the office, that chasing sexual freedom,

having a baby, trying to rebel against convention, I guess, or have a choice, you know, have a choice whether you want a baby or not. Should you focus on your career? It's incredibly relatable, all of it. Jessica was talking to Dr. Jesse Ramey and Rosie Sheehy. Mackinac is on at the Old Vic in London until the 1st of June. Now, important question.

When was the last time you spent time alone? Did you embrace it or did you feel lonely? Well Netta Weinstein is Professor of Psychology at the University of Reading and the co-author of Solitude, The Science and Power of Being Alone. She and her co-writers Heather Hansen and T.V. Nguyen think solitude has a bad reputation and they found there are many benefits to solo time. On average we spend one third of our waking life alone. So how can we be better at it? Well, Netta Weinstein joined me in the studio yesterday

and I began by asking her how we can be solo when we're constantly surrounded by people. It's true that adults spend a third of their time alone and older adults spend up to half of their waking time alone. So we spend quite a bit of our time alone, but I don't think we often stop and think about it. It's a little bit our default time between the next social interaction, the next time we go out with friends, the next work event we have. So we don't really take advantage of that time. Okay, so let's get into what the difference between solitude and loneliness is, because they get conflated, don't they? Yeah, and we've been talking a lot about loneliness.

And so a lot of the questions I get, well, you know, what do you think? Is loneliness not something we should worry about? Maybe it's not a big deal. Loneliness is a big deal, and it's a negative emotion. It essentially tells us, it's the way of our body. We tell us that we're not getting enough social connection. Maybe we don't feel loved enough. We don't feel valued enough. So loneliness is really about not having enough of something. And that's something about is about social connection, connection or connectedness to others. But solitude is something very different. And,

you know, whereas loneliness is kind of a negative emotion, it's quite difficult, it's painful, it's linked to a lot of negative kind of physical health and mental health outcomes. So it's not good for well-being. Solitude is the neutral state of being alone. So it's kind of a whole different idea. And we tend to confuse or conflate the two ideas. How did you begin to measure this for your book? Oh, well, that was a challenge in itself. And we sort of set out to find the sort of common ingredient for solitude. What does it

mean? Because actually, it seems like a simple thing. If we think about the definition, it's just time spent alone and not interacting with others. But it turned out that actually, there are a lot of ways to be in solitude and a lot of different definitions of solitude. So we can be in solitude when we're fully alone and there's nobody around. And usually when we think about solitude, and we call it kind of big ass solitude, that's this kind of special solitude, not our everyday life solitude, we'll tend to think of sort of, you know, the Buddha meditating. And we kind of think of it as this spiritual transformative experience. Or we'll hear about people who went out on these kind of long hikes in the wilderness for weeks, and they sort of found themselves and they transform themselves through that. So those are special moments of solitude. But actually, our everyday life solitude or little s solitude can also be really important for us. Like what? And we tend to forget about it. So, you know, those moments of solitude, they could be sitting alone

in our house, having some kind of self-care experience, just taking the time to relax, maybe have a bubble bath or bake a cake or, you know, a lot of people talk about gardening as a hobby that they like to do. So we'll tend to have different kinds of little s everyday solitude. But we can also have it walking down the street, we can have it on a on a bus or in a train, as long as kind of nobody's invading our space, our privacy. And so, you know, we can have others around. And the thing that defines our solitude is people are around, but we're able to attend inside. So psychologically, we're separated. We're able to reflect on our own thoughts and feelings. Our attention isn't oriented towards others. And when we're actively interacting, whether it's through text messages or by talking to people, our attention is focused

on them, what they're saying. You know, when we're talking, it's what their nonverbal cues, we call it, are. So how they're looking at us, are they smiling? Are they happy with us? A lot of our attention is taken up by those cues that other people give us or the words that they say that we're trying to understand and kind of think, how am I going to respond to this?

Solitude is about turning away from that and turning inwards to spend time with our own thoughts and feelings. And others can be around for that as long as they don't need our attention. As we are on Woman's Hour, we need to talk about the stigma that might be attached around solitude, especially for women. Yeah, that's right. So I think because we tend to confuse loneliness and solitude, there is a stigma. Solitude has a bad rep, you know, it has a bad reputation. So the way that we talk about solitude, you know, is kind of I'm a solitary person. I'm a loner. You know, we'll tend to think about them in the same way we tend to think about solitary confinement and we use the word solitude and solitary confinement. But that's really about isolation being really separated. So, you know, in all, we're kind of set up to think of solitude as a negative thing, unless we really stop and think about how solitude can be positive in our own lives.

And part of that is then we judge that others must be loners or asocial. They don't want to be with others or they don't, you know, if you're choosing to be by yourself, maybe nobody wanted to spend Friday evening with you, or maybe you didn't want to spend Friday evening with anyone else because there's something wrong with you. Or you're being selfish. Or you're being selfish. In particular, I'm thinking, you know, if you decide that you don't want to do whatever it is that's expected of you. Absolutely. So women even more so are susceptible to this stigma and not just from others, but also we feel it inside. So women are set up, you know, if you think about kind of women, the way we operate in society, not just now, but historically for, you know, many, many, many generations, women take care of the family, the babies, they're meant to be kind of real, we're meant to be really social

animals, we're expected to be really social animals. And, you know, I think for women, parents and non parents, but we do hear this a lot from mothers, especially mothers of young children, that if they're taking time for themselves, that they're being kind of selfish, that there's something wrong with you. And people will tend to think more that there's something wrong with a woman who wants to be alone than a man who wants to be alone. And women as well will be less comfortable to eat at a restaurant on her own as compared to a man who might go out and feel more comfortable to do that that or to travel on her own. And but there is a privilege, I think, attached to the idea of being able to take time out

and disappear into a cabin in the woods and have thinking time, isn't there? Yeah, absolutely. So we can't all look kind of a stereotype of the male genius, if you like. Yes, absolutely. So, you know, you kind of have to be special in a way. I mean, there's a reality of it that if you have the time and money to go out and do that and you're not kind of holding three jobs and you don't have a family to take care of, it's easier to know, the actual kind of possibilities for solitude, even if you have a very busy life and even for women who have small children or women who have who are balancing work and and home life, carving out a few minutes, you know, even 15 minutes a day. Tell her she's listening right now. She's got the toddler on her, attached to her leg. She's got the baby in her arms. Like, what are you saying to her? How is she going to carve out some time to she might not have showered yet she might be in her pajamas from yesterday what can we tell her absolutely so i mean that was that was the time that i fell in love with solitude i'll really tell us about your experience absolutely so you know having my my my daughter um so this was 10 years ago having my daughter really taught me the value of solitude because i think

we tend to think of of kind of women as then being responsible for the family. And it is an intensive experience to take care of another person. It's an intensive experience to have a job, you know, for example, in health care where you're taking care of others all day long. So I think, you know, it's really not about thinking, first of all, there's something selfish or wrong with me if I need that time. And actually, we tend to think it's going to mean that I'm a bad mother or, you know, I'm not doing my job as well if I go out for 20 minutes and I just step out and I take a little walk by myself. But actually, it helps us be better mothers and better kind of partners and better friends because we're able to recenter, we can relax, and it allows us to come back to others with more patience and a better version and a happier

version of ourselves. So I think it's really important, especially for, you know, those women who feel like they don't have enough time alone and maybe they don't deserve it to question that idea and think actually can I use solitude in a way that fits in with my life but allows me to just have a few moments for myself to breathe and think about my needs and my feelings and my thoughts and there's nothing wrong with me for doing that. Netta Weinstein there and her new book is called Solitude the Science and power of being alone well so many of you got in touch with the program to share your own experiences of solitude sally says solitude didn't feature in the first 60 years of my life i'd always been in relationships

had kids worked as a teacher solitude seemed scary then i took my courage in both hands and went travelling for two weeks on my own. Terrified at first, I'm now hooked on solitude and I've learned that I can really enjoy my own company. I love the freedom and feeling of independence and even power that it gives me. Go sister! and if you would like to get in touch with us about anything you hear on this programme or indeed anything you may like us to discuss in future programmes, then feel free to email us via our website. Now this next one might not be for you if you're not a fan of flying. New ITV drama Red Eye has been billed as a nerve-jangling thriller and takes place almost entirely on a plane, the Red Eye, from London to

Beijing. Jing Lucy plays DC Hannah Lee, a London police officer who has to escort a man accused of murder back to China. You might remember Jing from Holby City, Hollywood rom-com Crazy Rich Asians, or spy thriller Heart of Stone. In this latest series, Jing has broken new ground as one of the first, if not the first, British East Asian woman to play this type of role. Well, Jing joined Jessica on Monday's programme and she started by asking her about the plot without giving too much away for the new series about the character she plays. Yeah, so the series starts with Richard Armitage's character, Matthew Nolan. He's a doctor and he's in Beijing and he's a little bit weary and he crashes his car. He is bleeding and then he comes back to Heathrow and he's immediately detained and sent back to China, basically, because he's been accused of murdering a young woman who they found in his car. He's protesting his innocence. I'm then tasked, I play a London police officer who's tasked with accompanying him,

basically babysitting him because I'm Asian. So that is actually one of the really cool moments. Which we'll get into. Yeah, yeah. And we address that. And so I'm basically sent on a long haul flight to drop him off. I think it's going to be quite an easy gig.

I don't like him because the woman that he's accused of murdering is quite similar to me. And things start to happen on the plane, slightly unexpected. So what was it that drew you to this role? There's so much suspense and intrigue, but what was it specifically about Hannah Lee? Well, when I first read the scripts, I only had three. And as soon as I started turning the pages I couldn't stop and usually I'm such a procrastinator I'm making tea every few pages I'm taking toilet breaks at this one I just couldn't put it down but firstly what struck me

was this is an amazing premise first off but then I thought wow the character of Hannah usually is reserved for a man in that kind of role. And then I was like, oh, she's a woman. And then I was like, she's an East Asian woman. This is just unheard of, particularly in this country, maybe even in America. We see much more Asian, East Asian visibility in America, but not of this particular role. I couldn't believe it. I actually couldn't believe what I was reading. I was like, is this actually going to be happening? Is this going to be made? It was extraordinary.

It felt that groundbreaking to you. It did. Because she was a woman and because she was of East Asian origin. Yeah. And the dynamic between her character, Hannah, and Richard's character, Nolan, is usually is role reversal because it's usually, you know, the man saving the damsel in distress and, you know, he'll figure this out. You just get back in the back and I'll do this.

I'll drive this. And it's completely reversed on the show. And it was, we all felt when we were making this that this was something very revolutionary. And pretty much as soon as your character is introduced to us on screen, Hannah, her name is, she's calling out a male superior. I've got a clip of that.

This is Hannah going into her boss's office. Take a listen. That was significant that moment, wasn't it? You correcting him about where he believed you were from and the reason why you were going on to that trip, on to that specific job. Yeah, it was a really wonderful moment in the script where originally it was more minimalised than that.

It was sort of, you know, oh, I don't even think she really talked about it. And I just thought, what a wonderful moment to call something out that happens to everyone of colour or of, you know. So you decided that you wanted to bring that particular issue to the fore? I suppose it was an issue, but then you decided to end it. Yeah, I decided to make more of it. I thought, well, let's emphasise this because I think this is something

that people experience all the time. And what a wonderful platform for her to actually be like, are you, you know, what are you doing? You're just thinking that because I look like this, I'm your ambassador for Asia. And, you know, what was so wonderful

about the production, the writer and Pete Dowling and Bad Wolf was that they really embraced that and they saw that moment, an opportunity and thought, let us actually unpack that and say it um because it's things like this that need to be said was it difficult for you to come to that decision to to i suppose give some insight to to the audience into the nuance of being an

actor of east asian heritage well to put that line in or to make that moment no it was really easy i really really wanted to do that you've you've always done that. Is that something that's always been within you to, I suppose, stand in your truth? Or is that something that you've developed over the years? It's a bit of both. I think I've always been someone that couldn't not speak out much to my parents' chagrin. And then I studied law and it basically was three years of training you how to speak out, which was the best boot camp ever. And then as I entered the industry, and I think as an actress, firstly, and then as an East Asian actress, there's a lot of things that come at you that maybe, you know, that don't make you feel comfortable or inappropriate. And so to speak

out in those cases, I felt like that is actually something that is really important to do you don't compromise your integrity and I think a lot of people may think just going with the flow saying yes and being easy and appeasing is the way forward and I actually have experienced the complete opposite the more that you stand up for yourself you know the more respect you have and the more people actually listen to you. So what are the stereotypes that you've had to battle your way through as an actor? Oh, goodness. I mean, as an East Asian actress, it was the widest thing that we were seen for was prostitutes. Yeah, or some or, you know, not necessarily exchange for money for sex, but definitely very sexualized women who would sell their soul to have a visa or something like that. And it really, I mean, I came from an academic

background, my parents entered this country, and we immigrated through academic scholarships. So that's kind of the world I knew. And that was kind of their friendship circle. So when I sort of entered the industry, and everything was highly sexualized for women, I was like, wow, is this how you see all of us? I don't disagree that this segment of society exists, but there is another side. You know, there's the educated, there's the intellectual, there's the doctor, there's the lawyer, there's everything in between. Why are we only seeing such a tiny, tiny niche of society? And then obviously, you know, hospitality, takeaway workers and things like that. Yeah. I suppose then when you were cast in Crazy Rich Asians, which was a massive success over in America and worldwide, quite frankly, but it wasn't an American film. I suppose then that was groundbreaking because representation there, there was there was more nuance in the way East Asian actors and actresses were represented.

Yeah. I mean, I remember hearing about this film when it was casting. And I think, you know, we're a very small pool, we are the East Asians, whether it's in America or here, and everyone's talking about this movie. And then everyone's dying to be seen and auditioned for this movie. And then I get the script and I just couldn't quite believe that every single person in this film was Asian. And they were. You'd never experienced that before?

No, it was. Normally you're like, pick out the Asian, you know, pick out the person of colour, pick out like what gimmick, what shtick do these different people have? Like it's like a whole rainbow. It's like a United Colours of Benetton advert. And you're like, there I am. But this was like, wait, we're all of these people. It was extraordinary. And then it became, you know, they were seeing people from around the world. And that's what was so great, because they weren't leaving any stones unturned. They wanted to get the best cast to fit these amazing characters,

this landscape that Kevin Kwan has created. And I still to this day can't quite believe that I made that movie and made The Friends that I did because it was a piece of history. It was and it was groundbreaking for so many reasons. Did it break ground in setting forth better representation for East Asian actors? We shot it in 2017. It came out in 2018 in August, six years ago. What I've seen is a huge landslide of amazing projects come out of America in terms of Asian representation. You know, that was quickly Beef, Everything Everywhere at Once, Always Be My Maybe. So many things. But I didn't really see that reflected in the problem. Because I looked at the American model, and it was box office success. So many awards, you know, Ali Wong, Awkwafina, Michelle Yeoh became the first actress of East Asian descent to win leading, leading actress awards in the Globes, the Oscars, and the Emmys. And then so critically acclaimed and financially successful box office revenue. Why would you not

want to repeat this business model? If someone was like, here's a fast track to success, you'd be like, where do I sign? But we didn't sign for six years. And I'm like, what more proof do you need that this will do well? I really don't know the answer to your question of why hasn't it happened.

And I wish I knew. And I suppose some part of you is trying to change that, taking up this role and being in your first lead role. Do you feel as though this might be a breakthrough moment in the UK? I really, really believe and hope that it will. I think the visibility of Asians, we have gotten better in the last few years since Crazy Rich Asians, for example,

but they've always been sort of in the background, the peripheral, you might not see more than one of us in one project. And, and that for unless we're related, in which case you have to. But it's, you know, to actually have Asians in the leading role in a in a place where it's usually reserved for someone that's not Asian. And then to have such a strong support of an Asian cast was just like, oh my goodness. I used to have moments on set when I had to check myself and be like, is this happening? Wow.

Is this really happening on home soil? Yeah. It very much is happening, Jing Lucy. Red Eye starts on ITV1 at 9 o'clock on Sunday, the 21st of April. Top billing. As we heard at the beginning of the programme, actor Ruth Wilson will be running alongside her three brothers and nephew in this weekend's London Marathon.

Do join Creeper Paddy on Monday to find out how she got on. And if you're running, best of luck. Go Legs. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.