Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour - Samantha Cameron; Rhod Gilbert on male fertility; Afro hair and discrimination

Episode Date: January 30, 2021

Samantha Cameron talks about setting up her own clothing brand and what life was really like at Number 10.Katiann Rocha from the Halo Collective, an organisation of people working to put a stop to hair discrimination and Emma Dabiri, author of the book Don’t Touch My Hair discuss discrimination against afro hair.Internationally-renowned primatologist and conservationist, Dame Jane Goodall on climate change and how the planet has changed over the decades. Breathing coach, Rebecca Dennis and Mike Thomas, a professor of primary care research and expert in the use of breathing exercises for asthma at the University of Southampton discuss why we need to be taught how to breathe.Comedian Rhod Gilbert on male fertility and his campaign to raise awareness and encourage men to be open, engage and be a part of the conversation. Rhod Gilbert: Stand up to Infertility is on the BBC iPlayer and BBC Two on Sunday at 10pm. Following Elaine Paige’s admission that her height has made her feel horribly insecure throughout her life, Elizabeth Carr Ellis shares her feelings about the challenges that come with being smaller in stature.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Paula McFarlane Editor: Lisa Jenkinson

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello and welcome. Well, it's been quite a week at Woman's Hour. If you missed any of it, fear not. I've picked some choice cuts for your listening pleasure. Samantha Cameron talks about setting up her own clothing brand and what life was really like at number 10. Internationally renowned primatologist and conservationist Dame Jane Goodall on climate change and how the planet has changed over the decades.

We also discuss hair discrimination and how a huge percentage of black people still have to deal with it. People want to comment about your race, but there are certain things they can't say. But they're like, oh, but I can ask about the hair. But sometimes it is the kind of the equivalent of where are you from? Or why are like, they want to ask you about your blackness and they feel the hair is the entry point into that. Following Elaine Page's admission that her height has made her feel horribly insecure throughout her life,

Elizabeth Carr Ellis shares her feelings about the challenges that come with being smaller in stature and comedian Rod Gilbert on male fertility and his campaign to raise awareness and encourage men to be more open and engage with the conversation. But first, Samantha Cameron spent six years at Number 10 Downing Street with her husband David in the glare of the media spotlight. She was the youngest spouse of a prime minister, juggling family life and a new baby with a high-pressure job. While she lived at Number 10, she was also creative director

of the upmarket stationer Smythson. When she left Downing Street, she set up her own clothing brand, Sefin. Emma Barnett started by asking her what it's like to set up a fashion business. Setting up my own business is incredibly tough. My mum is an entrepreneur. She's had two or three businesses in her time. But it doesn't really prepare you for the reality the kind of the highs the lows um it's quite lonely as well because you know you go from being an employee to

being the boss but I have to say it's very rewarding you know of course there's been a difficult last few months but it gets easier all the time but I mean the first few months after we left Downing Street um was really tough but I think every entrepreneur you know and everything goes wrong and you've got a tiny team and it's exhausting but it was something I'd always wanted to do and I think if I hadn't done it I would have regretted it. Well you were you were kind of beavering away as I understand it at the table in Downing Street learning how to to put patterns together to to do various designs is that right? Yes. So waiting to do it.

I'd always sort of planned to do fashion at. Is that right? So waiting to do it. I'd always planned to do fashion at college and ended up doing fine art. And so eventually came back round to sort of tackling, tackling that, you know, wanting to have some sort of fashion business. But I thought I must teach myself how to pattern cut. So I was still working three days a week for Smythson. But in my spare time, a really wonderful lady came to teach me. And I'm terrible. I mean, it's an art form because you're trying to turn something flat into something 3D and women's

shapes are all very different so it's a it's a real art form. I love the fact you had some spare time the way you put that working and being behind a shiny door that we all know that hasn't you don't have a key to either do you? No there's no key there's no key you get i kind of think i can't remember now how we got in the back door i think it just opened there must have yeah no you don't have a key or a pass or anything has it been difficult during the global pandemic definitely i mean our i mean it's a fashion business so i'm very lucky in that people are still buying clothes i think there's lots of business out there who have suffered more of your restaurant the restaurant business or entertainment. And people are definitely still buying clothes.

We're an online business. People are online shopping. Yeah, I think you're trying to keep the team motivated because I think it's going to be another few months yet before it will go back to normal. But yeah, so it's been a challenge. Any Brexit supply chain issues? There's been a bit of that. I think a mixture of COVID and Brexit actually. So definitely

trying to get into the ports has been challenging. We've had to air freight more than we'd like to into the UK. And although there'll be no issues, you know, trading with the US or outside the EU, definitely until they sort out some of the, which I hope, teething issues. Definitely trading with the EU. If you're bringing goods into the country from outside the UK and then trying to sell them back into Europe, that currently is challenging and difficult. So as a small business owner, your message to Boris Johnson would be? I think they need to talk to all the businesses out there who are in a similar position to me, of which there are lots. And it is the smaller businesses because we can't afford to

have you know warehouses in Europe and that sort of thing and I'm sure there are ways of sorting it out but yes it does need to be looked at because otherwise we can't grow our business in Europe we can grow our business elsewhere. It must be frustrating for you. It is frustrating I mean the majority of our business is in the UK and we do a bit of business in America, but we did have a bit of EU business. And obviously, you'd like to grow it because it's easy. It's on your doorstep. But unless some of the expense and cost of doing that is looked at, it will be challenging. And we might well have to look elsewhere or focus on other areas. Talked about those Brexit supply chain issues, perhaps with your husband at home?

Yes, no, definitely. I mean, initially quite, because I think some of these things were, you know, came up in the very last moments of the negotiation. So you're definitely going, yeah, we're having this problem at work. We weren't, we thought,

we really thought we'd kind of done our prep and this one's, you know, we weren't expecting. So I think for bigger businesses, it's fine. But if you're small, it's a challenge. How hard has it been, Samantha Cameron, to come out of the shadow of being the Prime Minister's wife? We're talking to you today as a businesswoman in your own right. But of course, your name is synonymous with living at Downing Street and being the Prime Minister's other half for years. We've been together a long time before he became Prime Minister. I'd always worked. He's always been incredibly supportive of my work. So

it didn't feel in a sense at all like I was coming out of his shadow because we don't really have that kind of relationship. And I think when you're starting a business, it's so intense that you don't really have time. It's sort of frightening, but you're so busy that you don't have time to think about it. I think if I had, I probably would. I may not have done it. You might just have lost your nerve completely. Does he help out in the business? Yeah, he has done.

He gives me lots of good advice. I talk stuff over with him. He's not modelled for us or anything so far. Right, no male range. No, no, there's no male range in the planning. But the reason I ask is because I was thinking about this tricky line that partners have to follow or try to follow, because there is no route map defined. And actually, perhaps I could get your view on America in just a moment, because of course, a new First Lady there, but we don't have a set

role called First Lady here. And I I wonder did you have a role model was there a prime minister's spouse that you looked towards to be how you could be um no not really um and there's not much guidance when you get there actually uh I mean obviously we have the queen we have the monarchy and the royal family who do a brilliant job so we have a very different system here in that she's essentially, the Queen is essentially our first lady. But I think it's, as a Prime Minister's wife or husband, I think we're quite lucky in that you can find your own way

to tackle the role depending on your circumstances. But I had a young family. I wanted to continue my career. And I think being able to have that flexibility, to be able to support my career and I think being able to have that flexibility you know to be able to support my husband when he needed to me but also create a kind of happy home and have time to to I think going into what was beneficial because you get out of the Westminster bubble so you have a bit of perspective you can kind of come back in and not feel like I think it

can make you maybe a better partner because you're you're not so sucked into the intensity of it. But it's an amazing place to live and a huge honour and privilege. Yeah, I know, but I bet you were happy when... Amazing people. Well, you're not a bit relieved when you got out of there. I wouldn't have wanted to do it forever. Right, well, you know, I actually read somewhere that Dennis Thatcher was the model for you.

Yeah, well, I did always admire, I met him with Margaret a couple of times. And he was so charming and so adoring of her, actually, and so supportive. I mean, this was way, I think I spent her 70th birthday with them. So it was after she'd left Downing Street. And you just did feel like they really did support each other. So perhaps he was in some way an influence, even though Karen wasn't. Yes, definitely, definitely. Yeah.

You can't win, though. I was looking back at some of the predecessors in the role. And if you don't do anything, you can be accused of perhaps being meek, having no views, being a shrinking violet, all of those things. And then if you seem to be involved or interested, you're a Lady Macbeth who pulls the strings. And we're interested here at Woman's Hour about, you know, the perception of the women that are put in front of us on the media.

And I think recently Carrie Simons has been accused, the partner of the fiancé of the Prime Minister, of being that sort of role. Because unlike you, she was in politics before. She was a press officer, a very senior press officer at Conservative Party headquarters. And actually, one of the names she was given by people who were deemed to be allies of Dominic Cummings was Princess Nut-Nut. And I don't know if you saw this, but some people were very aggrieved at that description. I don't think she should be, to have that kind of criticism laid at her door.

You know, my view, in any way at all, my view is that your husband or partner is the prime minister. They're quite able to take decisions themselves. They have a huge team of advisers. and so the idea that is the wife you're somehow you know influencing them that over and above what what what they think or what advice they're getting for their team I think is kind of demeaning really for the you know for the for the prime minister and I don't think any partner of the prime minister would ever feel that that's the sort of position that they're allowed to be in and I think you're just trying to do your best thrust into a position that you may not have been

expecting you know my case when I married my husband it wasn't a role I was expecting to be in and and you're not trained for it. A lot of people listening to this will be at home with their children. Any tips or anything you found a way to make it easier at Downing Street having a baby? Is it set up for that? Is it a good place to have one? The apartment's amazing. All the people who work in Downing Street were incredibly supportive. I mean, the apartment's big.

I mean, you know, you've got lots of space. And there are kind of solid concrete floors and the windows have all got some sort of bomb-proof double glazing. So when you're in the flat, it's incredibly quiet. You feel a bit like a sort of princess in a tower, kind of, you know, it's a very... You can't hear anything going on, even though there's hundreds of people in the rest of the building.

You've got these amazing views over St James's Park and Horse Guards Parade, and you can't hear anything going on, even though there's hundreds of people in the rest of the building. You've got these amazing views over St James's Park and Horse Guards Parade. And you can't hear anything at all because all the walls are sort of so thick. So, I mean, but Florence did used to have a fairly free run of all the offices. She was a toddler. She was very spoilt there. I think she was the one most sad to leave. She'd got used to it. Well, yeah, she had all these people doting on her, giving her sweets and biscuits.

I tried to say, can you please not give her sweets every time she comes in the door? And she had so much attention. They became like this huge extended family. So I think it was quite strange for her when suddenly we went back and they're like, well, I'm stuck with you sort of four. Where is everyone? There was also the other side, which we talk a lot about on this programme, about social media and about the hate that can go on there.

And have you, or what would you say about supporting him as being in a public role like that when he has had a huge amount of backlash, especially around his decision to hold a referendum? Have you found that difficult? I think when you, I mean, we were in politics for quite a long time, sort of pre him being prime minister. And I think you just, you have to be really tough

and you just have to get used to it. You have to accept that there will be an element of that at whatever stage in your career. But this was quite hardcore about the referendum. And obviously he had to resign. He didn't have to, but he did. Yes. But I think you just I think you always have a sense that you don't know how it's going to end. It could be brutal. I mean, in British politics, I think it is quite brutal. Just losing an election is quite brutal. You're out of there in, you know, 24, 48 hours. And I think you just have to be quite tough,

you know, prepared to deal with that and not let it get to you to a stage that it might, you know, either affect your marriage or your mental health or whatever. But yeah, of course it's tough. It's a huge privilege doing the role, you know, doing that role as prime minister. It's a huge responsibility.

And so, of course, I think you have to sort of take that on the, you know, take it on the chin. And as the spouse, I think you have to be prepared too as well. Samantha Cameron talking to Emma there. Now, 93% of black people in the UK have experienced hair discrimination, according to a recent survey. Hair touching without consent is the most commonly experienced microaggression reported by nearly half of the black people surveyed. And a quarter say they have been picked on at school or work because of their hair. Why in 2021 is this still an issue?

Katie-Anne Roscher is from the Halo Collective, an organisation of people working to put a stop to hair discrimination, and Emma Dabiri is the author of the book Don't Touch My Hair. Hair discrimination can take place in the form of exclusions from school, little comments and insults that people make about hair. Common ones are that Afro-textured hair is wild, messy, unkempt, needs to be tamed. We've had a lot of stories of people telling us that they are so quick to adapt their hair and try to change their hair to um when they're going to school just to stop um comments being made um made to them um so me personally my experience with hair

has been through people telling me that I need to comb my hair telling me that I need to change my hair in order for it to be neater um so yeah these are all the things that can build up to the wider issue that is. Emma, you wrote a book about this two years ago, two years on, 93% of people still say they've experienced hair discrimination. Why is it so damaging? At this stage, we still have 93% of people saying, of black people saying this is something that they've experienced and to be honest I consider that counterintuitive as that may sound I consider it progress in that at least now you know that those figures are there and the conversation is having this type of mainstream attention you know and all of these initiatives like the halo collective are happening because that discrimination has has there, you know,

historically, but it just hasn't been so openly acknowledged and named in the way that it is now so that we can like go about addressing it. So how is it being played out, let's say, in the workforce on a day to day? Let's like really explain to everyone listening what, how this manifests itself, what is going on so first of all you know I think when one talks about hair there's this assumption that it's just like a superficial or like a frivolous topic and it's really just something you know that women or girls are talking about and it's to do with vanity and it's so much it's so much deeper than that um there are certain norms that one is expected to conform to to um be deemed as being suitable in the workplace or in the school environment most of those norms

are quite easy to achieve if your features are a certain way when we think about hair those norms have been have developed to suit the characteristics of um of european textured hair or non-afro textured hair our hair texture is dramatically different to other hair textures and it requires completely different techniques and methods you know to, to maintain it. For our hair to what is deemed as professional, which is like very, very culturally specific, you know, it's not professional. Professionalism isn't kind of neutral in how we perceive it. Or to conform to the school uniform policy, we have to do, you know, intensive labor to achieve those looks and also go through processes that are often very damaging to our hair. Because the norm is, you know, to have your hair kind of down or even hair that you can tie back easily.

You know, in order to do that, we really have to straighten our hair either by like a chemical process or by heat processes, which are really damaging. My hair is covered today. This is another thing when I was in school because my hair isn't done. OK, I didn't have time to do it. So I'm wearing a head wrap. This should be a completely ordinary thing to be able to wear into school or work. I wouldn't have been allowed to wear a head wrap to school. But for me to kind of you know maintain a neat appearance when my hair isn't done which takes hours um a head wrap is a as you can see a very neat quote unquote looking um looking item so i think that acknowledgement needs to be there that we have

different norms you know for her and so um this is to both you how are these microaggressions playing out sort of day in day out what day out? Tell me about your own personal experiences, Emma. What happens to you in the workplace? What do people say? How do these small comments affect you? time and energy into thinking about how you're going to present yourself for a particular event or place that you're going to be. And you have to think, well, if I go with my hair, just as it grows from my head, if I go with my hair in an Afro, which is how my hair is, you know, when I haven't, when I don't have braids or when I haven't twisted it or done one of these styles, what assumptions are going to be made about me and how is this going to impact um that experience are people going to think things that I've been accused of are people going to think that I'm I have an afro so I'm some sort of quote-unquote militant or I'm I've

been asked am I anti-white because I'm wearing my hair as it grows from my head? You know, because these are the assumptions with Afro textured hair or classed assumptions or just different judgments that will be made about you that might be damaging if it's, you know, a job interview or if it's something that your behaviour or your appearance is very important. And Katie-Anne, how is it playing out in schools? How does it affect children in schools? So in schools, I think I can identify two different ways in which hair discrimination plays out. So one is where it's quite extreme, where students are actively taken out of class or even sent to the back of their classes because their hair is too big and too distracting or it comes through the comments of oh can I touch your hair your hair's so big oh you look like a lion or it looks like a bird's nest these can um these can seem to outsiders as really small comments that don't mean much

but once it builds up over time it can really take a knock to the confidence of kids and in school years these are your formative years these are where you start to express yourself start to build up your first sense of identity and when people are making comments about something that's so culturally significant to you, and it's such a key part of your identity, it can really take a big knock to them and their pride. Yeah, I mean, you've hit you hit on something there in the survey said that hair touching without consent is the most commonly experienced microaggression. And you said that, you know, some people might not think this is a big deal. So explain why it is a big deal, because some people might say, you know, maybe I just wanted to pay you a compliment.

Maybe I'm just curious. I mean, compliments and showing appreciation for people can always can always take place. You could call their hair beautiful. I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate that once it comes to a lot of people touching care without consent um especially it can make people feel like they're in some sort of petting zoo and it's like they're the other in that situation and all of a sudden they've been made to stick out they've been made to um feel different to everyone else and and I think it's often in environments where you already feel conspicuous because you might be the only black person, you might be the only person of colour and then that attention on your hair is just kind of adding to a situation where you,

in which you already might feel self-conscious and I've had a number of times people reach out and touch it without consent and then say things like oh my god it feels like pubes you know as a teenage girl I mean it's happened to me as a teenager and as an adult that's not something that is particularly enjoyable particularly specifically when you're in an environment again where you are only the the only person of African descent or the only black person yeah because on one hand it's not an overtly oppressive act like a racist slur but it is equally upsetting and I think it goes back to it's people what people want to comment about your race but they there are certain things they

can't say but they're like oh but I can ask about the hair but sometimes it is it is the kind of the equivalent of where are you from or why are like they want to ask you about your blackness and they feel the hair is the entry point into that and as Katia said it's such a fundamental to your identity and it's so bound up your hair heritage is bound up in your history and the story. Absolutely. So one of the things that was really important for me in writing Don't Touch My Hair was while there is all of this discrimination and there is a lot of stigma attached to Afro textured hair that finds its roots in the transatlantic slave trade and the processes of dehumanization that um occurred um in that period to kind of um to to dehumanize black people essentially to um justify the enslavement i really wanted to tell the other side of the story as well which is that our hair is this um afro textured hair is this wonderful material that lends itself to being manipulated into all types of

incredible structural shapes so we have this history of of braiding for instance and I go into the science of that um different social histories around um around braiding um different the different meanings braiding um patterns are replete with meaning and forms of technology. So Don't Touch My Hair has a chapter on maths, mapping and coding and how that pertains to the patterns in our hair. So I really wanted the story of our hair not to just be steeped in this story of discrimination

and history of oppression. Fascinating discussion with Katiaan Rosha and Emma DeBerry there. Now, 2021 is going to be a decisive year for action on the climate crisis, or at least that's what many people hope. President Biden has rejoined the Paris Agreement and pledged to reduce America's reliance on fossil fuels. In November, the UK will be hosting the Conference of Parties, or COP26, in Glasgow, giving the government here a chance to showcase its own vision for a greener

future. Getting the world's nations to agree on serious action could be do or die for the planet, and things are changing at an alarming rate. But will it happen? One woman who's seen our planet change over the decades and has been a leader in this space is internationally renowned primatologist and conservationist Dame Jane Goodall. She's known for her pioneering work on chimpanzees in Tanzania, which she started in 1960. Jane Goodall explained how the chimpanzees have been affected by climate change. They've been affected in several ways but first of all when I got to the little Gombe National Park in 1960 it was part of the equatorial forest

belt that stretched right across Africa to the west coast and when I flew over in 1990 instead of being part of the forest I looked down and saw a small island of forest that was the national park. And it was surrounded for miles by completely bare hills, more people living there than the land could support, too poor to buy food from elsewhere, farmland overused and infertile, struggling to survive. And so that was one major change. And it meant that the Gombe chimpanzees were now isolated from other chimpanzee groups.

And as there were only just over a hundred, that is not enough for long-term viability because of inbreeding. So what we did was work with the people, help them find ways of making a living without destroying the environment. And because they came to trust us, they agreed to set land aside. And actually, the trees have now come back. So you won't see the bare hills anymore. And the people have become our partners in conservation. Presumably, you've also seen a change in the UK's wildlife too.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, when I grew up, I'm speaking from the house where I grew up in Bournemouth, and I used to wake up at four to hear the dawn chorus. So many different birds. There's hardly any left now. Most of them have gone. Most of the species have gone. And there isn't any more Adorn Chorus. It's funny, though, people have been saying during lockdown, though, they feel because fewer planes flying and fewer people on the road, certainly

very much in the early days of lockdown, that perhaps they could hear the birds more clearly. There are birds. And yes, you can hear those that are here more clearly. But that doesn't mean that we haven't lost many, many species. And also in the summer, if you left your window open with the light on, the room was full of insects. Well, that doesn't happen anymore. It's exciting to see one moth. And people have paved over their gardens and there's no hedgehogs anymore. It's changed enormously. Let me ask you about our leadership in this country. I'm very mindful of the fact that I've been speaking to a cabinet minister in just a moment, but on other issues.

Boris Johnson on the Green Agenda spoke up very recently against China's killing of the pangolin in relation to Covid. He actually faced some criticism in his own ranks for doing so, expecting a stiff rebuke from Beijing over doing that. And he talked about Chinese traditional medicine being demented. He blamed it for unleashing the pandemic. How much faith do you have in the UK under him being a leader in this space, that the UK can occupy that space? Well, I don't want to say too much about the leadership in the UK because, you know, our

institute, the Jengrel Institute, is apolitical. But I can talk about China. We have our youth programme, about 2,000 groups of roots and shoots across China. And as soon as it was suspected that the pangolin might have been the conveyor of the COVID-19 virus, it was banned from killing, breeding, eating pangolins. They've been taken off the list of Chinese traditional medicine. They've been put up to number one status in conservation in China. And in fact, I've just written a children's book about a pangolin because most people don't know what they are. No, I had to educate myself. And the way they roll up in a little ball is just gorgeous. You know, I mean, people should know what they are. So that's very nice to hear you've done that.

Yeah, it's coming out, I think, in the UK next week or something called Pangolina. What do you hope to see come out of the COP26 in November? Well, I think, you know, right now, as you say, more people are getting aware of the natural world. And I think more people are understanding that this pandemic, we brought it on ourselves by our absolute disrespect of the natural world and of animals. And it's the same disrespect of the natural world that's led to climate change. And I think this is pushing more people to realize it's desperately important that we create a new relationship with the natural world and animals and a new greener and more sustainable economy. Because does it make sense

that on a planet with finite natural resources and a growing human population with their livestock, that we can have unlimited global economic development. It doesn't make sense. If we carry on with business as usual, that's the end, not only of life as we know it on this planet, but that includes us. You still have a lot of hope. You have your podcast, Hopecast, and I think that's important to have. But the time that we're talking in with a pandemic, a lot of people, a lot of older people, very, very concerned and have had a lot of anxiety. I don't know if you've had the vaccine yet, but you also, I saw in a piece, spoke about dying being the next's something. I happen to think there's something. And if there is, then I can't think of a greater adventure than discovering what's in store for us when we leave this planet. So that's what I meant by that. Have you been vaccinated? I've had one

and I was told it's desperately important you get the next one within three weeks. But now they've run out of the vaccine. Suddenly it's OK to wait for 12 weeks. I don't know what to believe. Wonderful listening to Jane Goodall speaking with Emma there. Now, when people are stressed or anxious, which, let's face it, is a lot of us at the moment, we're often told to take some deep breaths to help us relax. It's nothing new, of course.

There are writings from China and India that are over 2,000 years old, extolling the virtues of controlled breathing for mental, physical and spiritual health. But there's a real resurgence in these ideas at the moment, mostly going by the name of breathwork. But is there anything in it? Rebecca Dennis is a breathing coach and author of a new audiobook called Breathe, and Mike Thomas, a professor of primary care research and expert in the use of breathing exercises for asthma at the University of Southampton, had a chat with me about it. Obviously, we're all breathing, otherwise we wouldn't be here. And we inhale, we exhale 26,000 times a day,

so we can't be conscious of every single breath that we're taking. But when we work with breathwork and when we know it's so important to understand that the way that we breathe is indicative to how we feel about life. And we can change the way that we feel and think just by changing the rhythms and the patterns and the depths of our breathing. So what are we doing wrong? What is breathwork? Well, breathwork is, there's thousands and thousands of techniques out there. And breathwork is really working with the breath in the way that obviously it's automatic. We don't have to think about breathing. We breathe in and we inhale and we exhale every day. But when we work with it consciously, we can change our states.

So on some more advanced levels of breathwork, we can work with it at a more therapeutic level when we're working with PTSD, or we're working with trauma, or otherwise, we can just work at other levels when we're trying to change our state from if we're feeling anxious, we can use the breath to help us to feel more calm. And if we're feeling scattered, again, we can connect to our breath, we can change the patterns of our breath, and it can help us to feel more calm. And if we're feeling scattered, again, we can connect to our breath, we can change the patterns of our breath, and it can help us to feel more focused. And even if we're feeling a bit tired, like at four o'clock, rather than reaching for an espresso, you can use other techniques which can help to make you feel more energized as well. So it really is this

multifaceted tool, a bit like a Swiss army knife, really, that we've got. It's right underneath our nose. It's free. And I never say it's a one size fits all breath techniques. You know, it's really about the way that I love to teach breath workers is become the architect of your own breathing practice and just understand more about why we're breathing in the way that we are. So Mike, you've been working in this area as a research scientist for nearly 30 years. Can changing the way we breathe really improve our health? Are you with Rebecca on this? Yeah, I think I broadly am, Anita. I think, you know, breathing is something we all do all the

time. And like you say, we think, do we need to think about breathing? Isn't it just automatic? But there are different patterns of breathing. And it's clear that there's, you know, although there's a, you know, we all breathe. We can, if we want to, we can hold our breath. You know, if we get anxious, we maybe start to over breathe. So there are different breathing patterns that slip into our our daily lives why does that happen sorry it's clear that emotions and breathing are very closely linked together

so that you know if you're under stress your breathing pattern can change and some people can kind of slip into abnormal what we call dysfunctional breathing patterns quite easily and it seems particularly people with underlying lung disease you know who who get episodes of breathlessness which make them very anxious and maybe trigger breathing patterns that make the symptoms worse rather than better and also people with anxiety can perhaps do this so and what is that happening there mike why why is why does anxiety make us breathe in a different way what's going going on? Well, normal, quiet breathing is predominantly through the abdomen. It's what we call diaphragmatic breathing.

But when we're excited or when we're kind of stimulated in the adrenaline flowing, we get ready for much greater activity and we also start to breathe with our upper chest. So what can happen is that people who should be breathing quite kind of quietly through the and regularly through the abdomen can actually start to do irregular upper chest breathing, also mouth breathing, because normal quiet breathing is nasal breathing. And these things, you know, they're actually quite useful to breathe in that way if you if you if you have to run harder, if you have to fight or if you're under stress, but if you're actually quite useful to breathe in that way if you have to run hard or if you have to fight or if you're under stress. But if you're actually having to cope with daily life, you know, these can actually produce abnormal symptoms which can actually make things worse. And what's the difference between breathing through our nose and breathing through our mouth?

Well, the function of the nose is to filter the air, you know, remove the particles to warm the air and to humidify the air. So it's like an air conditioner, really. So if we're breathing straight into our mouth, we're breathing kind of unhumidified, cold and dirty air straight into the lungs. And that can be an irritant to the lungs that can cause cause sensations that are unpleasant and if you've got something like asthma it can actually make the asthma worse. I've seen things online that say it stimulates our parasympathetic nervous system the rest and digest part can you explain what that is and is it true? Yeah I think broadly it is true I mean it's like things, it's a bit of an oversimplification, but there is a close link between breathing and the nervous system and the emotional senses. And the sympathetic nervous system is kind of there for fight and flight. And the parasympathetic nervous system is more the kind of background, you know, enabling us to cope in an efficient and functional way. And if we're overstimulated and the sympathetic nervous systems in the hyperdrive, this can actually lead to, you know, these dysfunctional situations and abnormal breathing patterns that can make people feel unwell in various ways and can be corrected by the

kind of exercises that rebecca's talking about well rebecca we should we should there'll be lots of people keen to know what we should be doing how we should be breathing properly and certainly how we can alleviate a bit of stress and anxiety at the moment so could you talk us through something really basic very quickly how we should all be breathing maybe we could all do it whilst you're listening let's do some breathing but to do this just so i don't go on for too long how long have we got a couple of minutes yeah yeah about a minute or so a couple of minutes as as mike was saying um when we're when we when we're using a deep diaphragmatic breath then then that's really the breath that we want to be using throughout the day and when we're in this state of fight or flight,

then we tend to be breathing much more up in the upper chest and overusing muscles that we don't need to be using. So those muscles start to get overused and contracted, and then that becomes a more unhealthy breathing pattern. So just by, first of all, just feeling your feet on the ground and just having breath awareness. So just being aware of how you're breathing and the way that you're breathing and just noticing the breath in your body yep doing it and as you're

inhaling and exhaling just seeing if you can push your belly away as you inhale i've spent a long a lot of time holding my belly in so you're telling me to just push it out absolutely and this this is where because so many people conditioned to hold their belly in, they're not using these lower abdominal muscles, the diaphragm and these other muscles, which really are the primary breathing muscles. And this is how we get unhealthy breathing habits. So if we just put our hands on our belly, and just every day, just noticing, you know, when you're emailing, when you're texting, am when you're texting am i breathing how am i breathing am i holding my breath is my breath shallow and just breathing into your belly breathing into your hand so as you're breathing in yeah put your belly away and then as you exhale your belly comes in and because if if that's not been something that you've been doing for a very long time that can feel like it's really hard. So really, the more that we train and the more that we practice that every day, then we can just get the body to remember how we used to breathe when we were babies and when we were toddlers.

And that's why you see little babies bellies pushing out when they're breathing. And so that's what we should be doing. Release our bellies. We're not going anywhere at the moment anyway, so we've all got stretch pants on. So this should be very easy. So just breathing into our diaphragm release our bellies just and relax and enjoy it and it's as simple as that rebecca thank you so much mike obviously very quickly there'll be people out there saying you know lots of people making claims making money out of this we should just uh any advice how to navigate it yeah i i think this is a very useful technique and particularly people with asthma might want to consider it. But some of the claims that have been made in the past have been inflated

and it's not a cure. This is something people do as well as not instead of their standard treatment. Well, it worked for me. I am totally zen right now. Comedian Rod Gilbert is raising awareness about male fertility and wants men to open up, engage and be part of the conversation. In his BBC documentary Stand Up to Infertility, he shares his own struggles to conceive with his wife Sian. Men don't talk about their fertility struggles and society largely views fertility as a woman's issue, despite the fact that men are said to be a factor in around half of all fertility issues between couples. I'm about to go off to the clinic fertility clinic to several things

blood tests sort of screening tests for HIV and hep B and C that kind of thing and also to go and give a semen sample, which is, I find, very, very embarrassing. This is not my first time. Thank God, because that was the worst time, no doubt about it. And I'm feeling... Well, I hate doing this. I'm feeling just self, I hate doing this. I'm feeling just self-conscious and embarrassed and shy and nervous.

And just dreading sort of catching people's eye, people recognising me. It's just awful. Emma asked Rod how he felt listening to that clip from the programme. Oh, it's making me feel a bit sick i've got a nervous tummy just listening to it you know it's crazy yeah well no but respect because you know you were feeling like that anyway and then you've put it on television yes yeah weirdly i think i find it easier to do that than i do to talk about it as me, the person. I've never spoken about it to anybody. And I think that's why I did the documentary is because I've never spoken to friends or family,

nobody whatsoever about my, what I've been going through. And yeah, I sort of, I mean, I've got my hands have gone a bit clammy. I feel my stomach's gone a bit weird listening to that back. But I do find that easier sort of somehow doing the performer me. You know, I've been talking about it on stage while I've been doing the documentary. And I find that easier than talking as me, the person. You found this, didn't you? Many men feeling like this. You put out an advert for men to come talk to you what's there about seven of you in the end in the pub yeah exactly

seven you know i mean that was i put a global shout out you know put a shout out on social media global shout out any men want a safe space to talk to somebody who's been through it themselves anywhere in the world seven and we all met up 100% turnout seven of us in a pub but but I was going to say the thing I did find surprising and and I've actually been through IVF is that I didn't know that men and men's health accounted for around half of fertility issues I didn't know that no no and that's one of the surprising not surprising things in this documentary, I think. I mean, you know, it's why on earth should it be a surprise that really that men account for 50 percent of this?

We're half the population. We're one half of the, you know, usually one half of the of the business. And so why would it be a surprise? And yet I think it took me totally by surprise as well. It's because of the way we look at fertility in the society. We see it as a female issue. There's no question about it in my mind. And I did a little experiment in Cardiff, you know, where I gave people the option of, you know, what percentage of sort of fertility issues do you think that men are in any way involved, account for? And most people went for somewhere around, I put 50% in the middle and I picked a few other random figures, 10%, some people went for that. But most people sort of hedged it around the 30% kind of mark. You know, and that didn't surprise me at all. I set that experiment up because I thought that would be the case. Yes. Well, it's also the way that the kind of industry around fertility has grown up, isn't it? You also go to a fertility fair and you only find one stand in this huge, you know, pre-COVID days, but this huge exhibition space dedicated to men. And you yourself, you found out about your own sperm,

haven't you? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. so i started off um day one of our filming was at the uh fertility exhibition in kensington and yeah there was i don't know how many how many stands there were there were you know over a hundred i think i say in the documentary i think and then there was one professor sheena lewis who's um sort of on the chair of British Andrologists, I think is her title. So she, yeah, she was there on her own one stand sort of focusing specifically on men. But yeah, I mean, I've had lots of semen analysis in lots of different places over the years. And happy to say that one of the things that came out of the documentary was me. I'm trying to get men to engage more, talk about it more,

think about it more. And I've done that myself. I'm the target audience for this documentary. As well as the host. You're looking at it. Yeah. I'm the host and I'm the target audience. I'm preaching to myself.

You know, all of this is about overcoming, trying to get past some of the stigma and embarrassment and the shame of it. Well, I feel all that stigma and that shame and embarrassment. So I've got to get past some of the stigma and embarrassment and the shame of it. Well, I feel all that stigma and that shame and embarrassment. So I've got to get past it. I think the other thing that you said that really struck a chord with me is that men often hang around in the background of these conversations. So when you go to the fertility clinic or if you go to a fair,

it's often men sort of walking behind and then the woman taking the lead. And what we're getting through from some of our messages from our female listeners, but we're also hearing from some of our male listeners, of which we have many, is that women often blame themselves. They take it on themselves. This is my job because obviously the baby's going into their body. You know, I've got to handle this.

But actually, you know, they could save themselves some heartache if the men were investigated earlier. Yes, yeah. And that's not my job really to comment on the way the industry works or has grown up, as you said, but certainly part of the reason I started this documentary is because I observed that in all of our dealings on this, and perhaps it's partly because our dealings in fertility started with shan's endometriosis so we we'd been going to see people as a couple of people it was always about her

endometriosis and then we sort of ended up in fertility treatment and things but but shan is always the person who sits next to whoever we're talking to whether that person is a nurse taking blood samples um a gynecologist i don't know who it is, a GP. Sian always sits next to them and I always sit on, I'm like best supporting actor. I rock up at the clinic when needed or we go together, but I'm not the point of contact. If there's a phone call from the clinic, Sian would take it. And I sort of thought, is this just me?

Because when I sat and thought about it, when I got home, I thought, I'm quite happy doing it. Not happy is the wrong word, but I'm... You want to be involved? I want to be involved, but equally, I'm not asking questions when I'm there at the clinic. We've both got issues. It's not just her endometriosis and various other things.

We've both got stuff. But I realised that I was sort of quite sort of happy that the focus wasn't on me and I didn't ask questions and I didn't put myself forward and I was happy to sit on the outside in my best supporting actor role and I wasn't engaged enough. And I just thought, is this, I bet I'm not alone here. Yes. Because it's so embarrassing and emasculating and shameful,

the things that you don't want the spotlight on you. There was a conversation in the documentary with the writer, with the poet Benjamin Zephaniah, which I also found really emotional. And I wondered if I could ask you, because you've been on this journey for six years with your wife, Sian. And he talked about how he felt, you know know seeing men with kids and being in the playground and that's a conversation I've had when I couldn't get pregnant for for a long time and also I've heard it with other women I hadn't heard it between two men before and I just wonder how do you feel when you see kids and and now you I know you're still on this journey and of course many people had their IVF pause during lockdown.

I don't think there is one answer to that. I think it's changed over the years. You know, I've had moments of that. And I've had moments where it's been difficult to hear about other friends. Sometimes it's a hard thing to admit, but sometimes it's a little bit of your brain thinking, what about us? Sometimes when your friends have kids and stuff and other people around you, you're always very pleased for them, but there's always that little voice in the back of your head somewhere as well, which I'm not proud of.

And he says the same thing, actually. He's quite embarrassed, quite ashamed. He's not proud of that behaviour, that you're sort of looking enviously at other people. I've had those moments, but they come and go, really. Generally, I'm sort of fairly philosophical about the whole thing. We both are, Sian and I. I read in a newspaper article this week

that somebody said I was desperate for a child. I wouldn't use those words. I've never used those words. And nor would Sian, I don't think. And partly we haven't let ourselves be desperate because that's just not the way we are. So refreshing to hear it from a male perspective. Rod Gilbert talking to Emma there.

And lots of you got in touch about this. Richard emailed in to say, when my wife and I were going through infertility treatment back in the 1980s, I had to confide in my boss, who was the MD of a large company, about my condition of low sperm count. I received the sympathetic response of, oh, firing blanks then, eh? Ha ha. This is so indicative of prevailing attitudes then, but as a childless couple in our 60s now, IVF was not very successful back then, we're delighted to see that attitudes and education are changing at last. And John emailed to say, I was driving and had the radio on Rod Gilbert moved me to tears Bravery, frankness and may I say bold too

Literal physical reaction to his testimony Spine and neck tingled Radio doesn't often do that however When it does I believe it cannot go unshared I completely agree John And now for some music Daylight I must wait for the sunrise agree, John. And now for some music. When the dawn comes, tonight will be a memory too.

And a new day will begin. Were you singing along? I was wailing like a cat in the studio. That is Memory from Cats, performed by award-winning star of the West End and Broadway, Elaine Page. Now, she's a defining voice in the musical genre and presents her highly popular Radio 2 programme, Elaine Page, on Sunday. And she's recently featured in the Radio Times and the papers talking about her height. She's 4'11", if you believe the papers, and 5' on her agent's website, which has made her feel horribly insecure throughout her life and caused her to be both literally and metaphorically overlooked.

While Elizabeth Carr-Ellis from Canterbury got in touch with Woman's Hour on Twitter, Emma started by asking Elizabeth how tall she was. I'm five foot and a teeny little bit. It used to be five foot and three quarters of an inch, but now that I'm getting older, I'm shrinking a little bit. It used to be five foot and three quarters of an inch. But now that I'm getting older, I'm shrinking a little bit. So it's five foot and a tiny little bit on a good day. A woman very close to me is five foot one and three quarters. And if I ever missed out the three quarters, I would be in a lot of trouble. Oh, yeah, that three quarters is very important.

Size does matter. What's it been like for you? Because Elaine gives an account of it sort of blighting her existence in some ways. It is hard. I mean, it sounds very funny, but it is hard when you go to shops, for example, and you try on a lovely jacket and the sleeves are halfway down the floor and you have to roll them up or you're thinking, well, I just can't get them. I would say it's like I seem to spend my whole life as if I'm wearing those mittens that you used to have string attached around through the sleeves because it just the sleeves just hang on so it's like having those little mittens which just makes you feel even more like a child that's the worst thing

people treat you as if you're a child my best friend is um about five foot seven five foot eight and she bends down to talk to me no as if I was a toddler I sometimes bends her bends her knees to kind of she like exactly she bends down or if we're having photographs taken she'll bend down to be more my height. And I'm just very, I know I'm only five foot and a little bit, but please, you know, you're going to be tying up my shoelaces next. Have you said something to her? I have. And she says it's because I'm so little and cute and she just likes it.

I think it makes her feel very maternal and protective. We obviously, of course, here, what was our focus on the female experience? We have had some messages from men, of course, here at Women's Hour focus on the female experience. We have had some messages from men, you know, talking about how hard it is to be a short man. I wonder what you think of the difference between the two. I do think it would be much worse to be a short man because I can get away with the little, you know, oh, she's little and cute. I can go into Zara Kids to buy my clothes. Do you do that? Great. I do. Yeah, the jumper I'm wearing is from Marks and Spencer's children. It was exact same as an adult's one.

But the trouble is, there's a lot of unicorns and I'm Daddy's favourite little girl t-shirts when you go into the children's section. Yeah, I don't know how old you are, but that might not be floating your boat. Yeah, when you're in your early 50s definitely not but men men can't do that and there is this huge big stigma for men to be big to be but you know to be chris hemsworth so and so if you're a little ronnie corbett yeah i can imagine it it would be worse what would you like to say you've got the whole of women's hour radio 4 here at your disposal to people who perhaps either bend down or in the workplace have treated you differently what would you like to say to them about what you don't want them to do? Please just don't treat me like I'm a child you know I'm a 53 year old successful

woman and I should be treated exactly the same as somebody who's five foot nine and five foot ten I'm sure they would never treat Elle Macpherson the way that they treat me and supermarkets please don't put your bargains on the top shelf that must be incredibly annoying do you find you're getting the steps that are there for those who are working there to try and get get involved so you can reach them I I have done sometimes. Sometimes you're just left standing there, like, you know, please, please, sir, I want some crisps off the top shelf. Please help me.

You've just got to get really good at being able to jump. That's my technique. Just bend the knees and leap. Emma talking to Elizabeth Carr-Ellis about her height. And emails came in about that one unsurprisingly as an adult woman i've had more than one man literally pick me up used to infuriate me as it removes all power and you're accused of not having a sense of humor if you object it doesn't happen now as i'm older and have an effective death stare that's been cultivated over the years

oh yeah i love a good death stare theresa says I'm 74 years old and for the majority of my life, I've been five foot one inches. But as a result of a medical condition requiring steroids, I've developed osteoporosis. I'm now about four foot eight inches. I couldn't really afford to lose much height with all the attendant problems, breathlessness, inconvenience and general discomfort.

Now, five foot one seems like a golden period. Well, I told you it was quite a week on Woman's Hour and no doubt it will be again from Monday. Do join Emma. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.