Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Sara Davies, Neath RFC tweet, Ramadan health, Frankie Bridge

Episode Date: March 15, 2025

Do you have a business idea that you would realise, if only you had the time? Sara Davies firmly believes we’re all capable of creating a successful business from scratch, in just six minutes a week. The Dragon’s Den star set up Crafter's Companion while she was still a student and has since built it into a multi-million pound business. Now she’s sharing what she’s learned in her new book – The Six Minute Entrepreneur: 52 Short Lessons for Long-term Business Success.This week the owner of a Welsh Rugby club put up a social media post to promote an upcoming match against a local rival, featuring the words "Not For Girls" stamped across the top. He didn't expect the post would get more than a quarter of a million views, generate outrage and condemnation and become national news. Matthew Young from Neath Rugby Football Club talks exclusively to Nuala McGovern along with sports broadcaster, Stella Mills, one of the first people to see the post and comment.The holy month of Ramadan is underway, which means millions of Muslims around the world are fasting, no food or drink from dawn until dusk - not even water. But for those with current, or past eating disorders, this period of fasting can bring challenges. So, how can they be best supported? Kylie Pentelow talks to fitness trainer Nazia Khatun, who has struggled with anorexia and bulimia in the past, and counselling psychologist, Dr Omara Naseem, who specialises in eating disorders.Inside Counter Terrorism Policing is a new podcast featuring five women working in a range of roles across the UK, who have shared their story with the aim of inspiring others to consider a career in national security and policing. We hear from Vicki Evans, Senior National Coordinator for Counter Terrorism Policing for the UK, and an officer we are calling ‘Emma’, who will explain the challenges of her role as a handler of covert sources.Frankie Bridge has hit out at "double standards" for women after she received a backlash online for going on holiday without her children. The Loose Women presenter was called "the worst wife and mother" in comments on her social media post, after she took a break with a friend following health struggles, while her husband and mother were looking after her two sons. She joined Nuala, along with parenting coach Camilla McGill.The Grammy award-winning Lainey Wilson is a country music trailblazer, with seven Country Music Association Awards and six Academy of Country Music Awards to her name. Her latest album, Whirlwind, earned a Grammy nomination and she is currently on a world tour promoting the album. Ahead of headlining this weekend's Country to Country Festival at the O2 in London she joined Nuala to discuss why she thinks country is cool again.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Sarah Jane Griffiths

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme. Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks it will take to feel truly alive.

If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello, and welcome to a selection of standout moments from the week. Coming up today, Sarah Davies, the businesswoman known to many of

you from Dragonsden, will bring us some of her six-minute lessons on how to become a successful entrepreneur. We'll also hear how a podcast hopes to recruit women for counter-terrorism policing roles at a time of mistrust in the police by many women across the UK. We have Frankie Bridge, the Saturday star and Loose Women presenter, received backlash on social media after taking a break with a friend without her partner or children. She went on to say her husband has never received such messages when he has posted about being away. So what's going on we'll discuss. And we are in the month of Ramadan where Muslims don't eat or drink during the hours of daylight. But what impact does that have for those

who have eating disorders? We'll be speaking to an award-winning fitness trainer who has struggled with anorexia and bulimia about how she navigates Ramadan. Plus Grammy award-winning star of country music, Lainey Wilson. So we have lots to get through. Let us get started and let us begin with Sarah Davies. She has been on our screens for the past six years on the TV show Dragons Den. She was the youngest female dragon to enter the den at the age of 35. And it was her credentials as an entrepreneur that landed her that job in the first place.

Sarah set up Grafters Companion while she was still a student and has since built it into a multi-million pound business. Now she's sharing what she has learned in her new book, The Six Minute Entrepreneur. Sarah joined me earlier this week and I began by asking her just how does it work? Okay, so here's the thing, we're all busy right? We all, I think every woman especially, we have the aspirations to do a bit of self development but people just don't have hours and hours to read all of these self help books or business books or whatever it is and I've got a lot of stories. I'm really lucky that I've had a fantastic 20 year career, I've had things that I've

learnt from my time on Strictly, things that I've learnt from my time in the den, in business, and if I was to sit down with you and tell you all of them, well I would be for the next week, let's put it that way. And what my thinking was is if I can take all the learnings that I've had in my career and break them down into each lesson just being six minutes. We've all got six minutes a week that we can put aside for ourselves. So I've got lessons on imposter syndrome and dealing with mam guilt and maybe it's about how we can be more present in our lives or maybe it is

setting up and running a business or lessons you can learn from business but in six minutes you can sit down read a chapter there'll be some self reflection pieces for you to think on and then I'll give you a little bit of homework for the rest of the week. There is homework I want to underline this. So this, we're talking about a year maybe, we have the 52 short lessons if you take six weeks, six minutes for each week and then by the end of the year you should have some of Sarah's lessons. The homework, I was quite interested to see what was done there as well. But let me get into one. People will know you from

Dragon's Den as I mentioned, they'll also know you from Strictly. I was quite interested to see what was done there as well. But let me get into one. People will know you from Dragons Den as I mentioned. They'll also know you from Strictly. I was fascinated by this. What you learned about being present or being in the moment from Strictly. Do you know, so I mean, it's three years since I did Strictly. And at the time I was doing Strictly, I was running a multi-million pound multinational business, 250 staff on two time zones across the world.

I had an investment portfolio from three years of Dragons's Den, I had two young kids, they're eight and eleven now and I'm trying to juggle all of that and then all of a sudden I'm wanting to fit in 50-60 hours of dancing a week and someone said how on earth do you fit that in and the way that I did it is I was able to give Ali Ash, my dance partner, six hours a day and I said we'll start at six o'clock in the morning and go from six till twelve. Six hours a day? So he used to meet me at the dance studio at six o'clock every morning and I remember him saying to me a couple of weeks in I have never known anybody with the capacity of learning

that you've got he said your brain you learn steps so much faster than other people he's worked with and I said I don't actually think that's what it is I think we're learning those steps at half past six on a morning I said and you know this that age-old saying of your brain every hour before nine o'clock in the morning is worth two hours after six o'clock on a night my brain was just firing on all cylinders at six o'clock in the morning I'd be brilliant however there is a big however okay what I used to do is I used to get up on my way driving to the studio I would voice note all of my staff you know I'd ring voice note my em...

She's awake! Oh don't I used to say turn your phone on silent until you get in and I'd send all these voice notes off so that I could get out of my head what everybody needed to do that day and at eight o'clock in the morning we used to have a bit of a break I used to go and brew us up a cup of coffee 15 minutes break and in that time I would start checking the whatsapp replies and all the messages I'd got from everybody and then quarter past eight we'd start dancing again and I remember Aliash saying to me a few weeks in he said you're brilliant up until we have that break and at 8 o'clock he said

something changes in you and I just don't know what it is but you're just not as brilliant and I had to reflect on what it is and what I realized was at 20 past eight I'm back in his arms I'm doing the dance I'm trying to learn the steps but my head is half in the business because I'm now thinking about the replies and I'm thinking oh what the meeting I've got to go to at one o'clock we're gonna have to review this purchase order and we're gonna have to look at the shipment and when it's coming in and did it so I was there I was present in body but not a hundred percent present in mind and I realized that by not giving him all me, I was brilliant from six to eight on the morning.

He said, you're just you're not the same person from eight o'clock. And so what do you think it is? There's just a different part of your brain that has been switched on to a different part of your life. And it's not possible because I don't believe in multitasking. No, I'm right with you on that one. I learned that the hard way. It's it's all right to think, well, I'm actually physically present in that room.

But if I'm not mentally present in that room, he hasn't got a hundred percent of me, and I could only give him six hours a day of me to start with when other contestants were doing 12, 14 hours of dancing a day. I thought the least I can do is give him all of me for all six hours. And so did you stop doing the check-in? I had to take my phone off me. I took my phone off me. What happened to your feet? Well look at that, I was top of the leaderboard the next week. There's the difference and I think that is it. What I've learned is when you are somewhere you've made the effort to be there, be present. Whether it's you take your kids to the park on a Saturday

morning, don't be the mam that's pushing the kids on the swing with one hand while you're reading your emails in the other. Be a hundred percent there present with the kids. But probably less time with them if you still have to answer those emails. Well the way I see it is I'd rather give everybody a little bit less of my time but them get a hundred percent of me in that moment. I feel like my kids benefit from that, my work benefits from that, wherever I am you get a hundred percent of me. I've only met you probably about 20 minutes ago but I can feel your energy and how much you get done.

And of course, I know this from your history and your career as well. But do you ever worry that perhaps you're fuelling this idea that women have to be super women? Do you know, we can't be. People look at me and they say, how do you have everything? And I say, well, well, I try to have everything, but I have this unbelievable support network. And also I accept that having everything, I can only do, I can only ever achieve 80% of what I want to. I can't work as many hours as what

I want. I think I'm a great mom, but I'm not with them kids as much as maybe these other women are. But I just think, do you know what? I make the time that I have with the kids count. I make that the really special time and we have a great time. So yes, you know, I'm away more, I travel away for work, I'm away from home overnight, but when I am with the kids we make sure it's really special. When I am in work I make every moment of that count and predominantly by being present. Let's get into also some of the other lessons, I love that one about being present. You also talk about how to avoid being underestimated. Do you think that's something that particularly affects women?

Without a shadow of a doubt. I always found, especially when I was first starting out in business, I would quite often be the only woman in the room or I'd be the only young person in the room or I'd be the only person who sounds like this, which in a lot of rooms people therefore assume because I sound like this I'm clearly not as bright or as smart as what the rest of the people in the room are and I was always underestimated and I found I use that as my superpower. I use that to my advantage. I love nothing more than people underestimating me and then me being able to blow them expectations out of

the water and I always say you know people say how do you deal with that bias? I said other people's problem it's not your problem it only becomes your problem if you let it be if you let that bias affect how you are performing on what you are doing let don't let that cloud your own judgment I knew I'd sit in a room and I knew I was better than them men in the corner doesn't matter what they think I know that I am you know I know that I how do you get that confidence do you know I think it's that inner belief and also I'm a big proponent of you are a product of the people you surround yourself with. Okay, so a network? Yeah, network or naysayers, you know, if you surround

yourself with other people who will fuel that feeling that you're not as good as what you are, you will get there. I always remember when I first had the kids, I made a lot of other friends and a lot of them were women who decided that they were going to give up their careers to look after their kids, you know, and they wanted to be stay-at-home moms, certainly for a few years. And I remember the time I spent with them, I felt wholly inadequate. I felt like I wasn't as good of a mother as they were because they'd chosen to put their kids first and I'd been selfish because I was trying to juggle having a career and have kids. And as I got a little bit older, I realized the mums at the school gate, the

mums that I made friends with, I made friends with the other ones who were career mums, who were going through the same juggle that I was, who were also brilliant mums but trying to have a career as well. And the more time I spent around those women I didn't start to think that I wasn't good enough and I wasn't a good enough mum. I became a product of the people I surround myself with and we would champion each other and build each other up and I think it's all about that mindset. Sarah Davies there and her book is The Six Minute Entrepreneur and it's out now.

Let us turn to rugby. This week the owner of Neath RFC, a Welsh rugby club, put up a social media post to promote an upcoming match against a local rival. Matty Young hoped a few thousand people would see the post, maybe like it or share it and with any luck some would come along to watch that match. What he didn't expect was that his post would get more than a quarter of a million views, generating outrage, condemnation and become national news. Coming to this, Matty giving an exclusive interview to try and explain his actions to Womans Hour.

The post promoting the club's new event, which was a match on Friday rather than on a Saturday, said Friday night under lights, no frills, no apologies, just, old school Friday night rugby at its finest. And it continues. If you crave passion, grit and raw intensity, this is where you belong. That text, with an image of male rugby players, also had the words, wait for it, Not for Girls, stamped across the top. So we will hear from Matty Young from Neath Rugby Football Club in just a moment. But first Stella Mills, who is a sports broadcaster and was one of the first people to see the

post and comment. The way I saw it is similar to how many people in the women's rugby community saw it, which was straight down the line as it is very sexist. The basic gist of the post was effectively saying that women and girls are not welcome in the rugby environment, which is something that we have been working so hard in the sport to work against. And arguably, I would say if you put this post aside, looking at the general landscape, we've actually achieved that to a really good point. So to see this was actually just incredibly disappointing.

So it wasn't just one post that I mentioned there. The first one was taken down and then something else went up. Yes, something else went up on Twitter around 11.30pm at night, which did have hints of chat GPT in terms of the writing and the text. It didn't look like it'd been planned out from my opinion, which then said that it was spinning the camp, it was planned, it was a marketing campaign and it was spinning it on its head and it also had an element of gaslighting to it if I'm honest, with the text at the start saying that we should forget the outrage and it's interesting because the outrage was caused by the original post.

It said forget the noise, forget the outrage, let's talk about real change. So many might think was it a marketing gimmick to begin with? Hold your thoughts Stella, let us bring in Matty. Let's go back Matty to Wednesday early evening. What was going through your mind when you put up that original post, Not For Girls? Originally there was a video campaign to follow it. What happened there's a lot of communication issues internally and the video campaign got delayed. Me ultimately being impulsive decided to put the post out thinking okay you'll get a bit of traction and we'll have you and then we put the video out a day later. By the time I got home there was 250,000 views I was thinking

what have I done this is ridiculous and at that point the post came down. From that point there was my phone just did not stop going off and it was like you need to put an apology out, need to put an apology out. I had various people talking and yeah I think between listening to a lot of people saying I need to say this, I need to say that it was completely abort abort and a chat GBT apology went out. That went out as soon as that went out. I was thinking, Oh my God. With the sort of intention of the campaign, which totally got

misconstrued by chat GBT, I think. And so chat GBT, sorry, Matty to interrupt you. It's AI, it's artificial intelligence for anybody who hasn't used it. You put it in and it spits out a certain answer. Yeah. Yeah. Trying to replace my lack of intelligence in this. So then the next morning I didn't sleep all night and there was a time of reflection.

And at that point, you're like, take that post down and I write exactly what's on your mind at this point and then start the process really of listening and learning. So let's even pick this apart a little bit more. You put up the original post. What were you hoping would happen? You had created some videos, or started, should I say, the intention to create videos.

I've seen the storyboards, I've seen the illustrations to promote, amplify girls and women's rugby. And you wanted that to be inserted at some point within this men's rugby match, Not For Girls. Have I got that right? Yeah, yeah. But it never got that far with the original, like the Not For Girls part of it. I think people will be wondering why that was slapped on.

So the film that was coming in was storyboarded and the intention of the film was So the film that was coming in was storyboarded and the intention of the film was to integrate our junior side, Neath Junior girls' sides with Neath Brand and Neath Senior sides. What was going to happen was there was a juxtaposition between the two whereas at the end the junior sides then would ultimately come out, battle the Neath Men and Men Senior team and essentially take them down. Forces for girls and not for boys or something along those lines at the end. men and senior team and essentially take them down. Forces for girls and not for boys or something along those lines at the end. We grew up with a few ideas. That was where the sort of payoff was supposed to come from.

I think this initial concept came from a TED talk that I was listening to called the problem with women's sports, Haley and Rosson. So tell me, you were hoping to... What did you think would happen? I was hoping, I think ultimately, is to integrate within the club, the two sort of... The girls and women's, but with that post that people would think would come to the game or be intrigued, not outraged? I think ultimately it was a marketing for the Friday night game, but also I wanted to get the two integrated more. So I wanted the seniors team and the Panthers team to come together within the club

and maybe the cultures come together. But didn't think there would be that reaction to the term, not for girls? Yeah, well, didn't think. And I know you've apologized profusely in the time since Wednesday. I want to go back to Stella. What do you think? Are you ready to accept the apology? I don't think it's up to me.

I think I'd actually quite like to take this opportunity, if you don't mind, to speak on live radio directly to the girls that have seen this post. And I want to speak to them and say rugby as a sport is the most inclusive sport there is literally a room, bit of room for every single body on that pitch now if you're a young girl and you've seen this post and you're put off from coming to a rugby club you don't want to go to training you don't feel like there's a space for you rugby is always will be, for the girls. It just is. I think there is a space for them and I think posts like this shouldn't be detracting from growing the game that we have.

Mattie, let me go back to you. You bought the club for a pound. Have I got that right? Yeah, yeah. and bring it out of its struggling economic situation. And I think you create digital videos. That is your livelihood? Yes, my background, part of my background. What do you think you've learned or where are you going to go from here? Because you hear Stella and you hear her, I suppose, reservations about this post, her anger, but even at this point about the execution? I think there's so much to learn, so much. I mean, one of the big guests, it wasn't my

battle to lead. And I think what Stella says about giving an apology to the girls is also that there's really strong women at the club, there's people on the board, there's all over the club who are absolutely so important to the club and so their voice is so important as well. And I think I've got to start with apologies there, but it was the, it wasn't me to lead, it wasn't me to make decisions even on bad ones, especially bad ones. And I think it was for the girls to lead. And that's one of the things when I go back now is we talk to the girls, say, right, what do you want to, what can I do?

And the girls are the Panthers? The Panthers, yeah. Yeah. We can give them a shout out here as well. Did you hear from the Panthers? I spoke to them that night and I could imagine there was a lot of fury internally there, absolutely rightly so, at that point. Are you committed to staying with the club?

I think I've got to for the next two or three months. I think after the next two or three months I'm more than happy to speak to everyone involved in the club. I think the reason I've got to stay for the next two or three months is we need to get through this season, you know, financially. When I came in there, my job was to keep a massive asset, a huge asset and a hugely important historic club. So yeah, so I think it's up to the people within the club, really, and for me to see if that change happens with myself. Stella, last word. I know women's rugby, particularly in Wales, Hannah Jones in the papers this morning,

calling for more support really, particularly when it comes to their contracts. How would you describe women's rugby at the moment? I think it's an exceptional sport that is only going to grow bigger and bigger with the Women's Six Nations and the Rugby World Cup coming up. And I think if people are hesitant about it, then come and watch a game, see what it's about and I guarantee you, you'll be hooked for life. Stella Mills there and also Mathy Young. The holy month of Ramadan is underway, which means millions of Muslims around the world are fasting. They do not eat or drink from dawn until dusk, not even water. At the end

of each day, friends and family celebrate together with a breaking of the fast with a meal together. But for those with current or past eating disorders, this period of fasting can bring challenges. So how can they be best supported during Ramadan? Nazia Khatun is an award winning fitness trainer who has struggled in the past with anorexia and bulimia. She joined Kylie Pentelow this week along with counselling psychologist Dr. Amara Nassim, who specialises in eating disorders. Dr. Nassim has also written a guide to assist those with an eating disorder who

are observing Ramadan. Kylie asked Nazia when was it that she first realised she had an eating disorder. It started with a very innocent run in the park actually. I just wanted to get fit after school. There was no places for females to actually go and participate in sports. And then I went to college and I came from an only girls school then went into a mixed college. So everybody, I mean, the hormones are kicking in, we wanna be liked and everything. And what started out as a fitness thing

very quickly developed into just starving myself, restricting my calories and being obsessive. And within a very short time, I dropped significant weight. And I think I went from probably about 75 to below 60. Then I went into like my fifties categories and everything. And I knew I had issues because I was just severely obsessed with the way I looked with any amount of weight that I gained within a night or I was obsessed with the scales and everything. My family knew I had an issue, but because it wasn't a topic that we really

spoke about or heard about, it just got brushed under the carpet and I struggled with it for a very, very long time. I didn't realise it was an eating disorder until probably about my 30s or something. And I'm now 41. I've only just held the eating disorder part of my life in the last three years. And it, I would say it robbed me of my twenties. And when I look back at it, I feel very sad, like thinking I have continuously harmed myself, punished myself with grilling workouts, with starving myself, having headaches, being moody. I was a horrible person in my twenties because the hunger, the hormones, the mood swings, the regulations of my emotions and everything. So it was like an ongoing thing for me, to be honest with

you. How did you cope with Ramadan during that time when you were experiencing that terrible condition? In my 20s, it didn't really affect me so much, I'll be honest with you. It's only, I used to be an amateur boxer in my 20s and where I was addicted to the gym, I'll be honest with you. It's only, I used to be an amateur boxer in my twenties and where I was addicted to the gym, I used to train all the time. And it was another way of me losing weight.

It's only when I hit depression at the age of 30, when I changed career, and again, I'm from a Bangladeshi community, we don't encourage females to be boxing, participate in sports, learn on becoming a fitness coach. And it was something that I battled with quite severely. And I didn't realize that depression came from all the unresolved issues that I had in the past.

And the eating disorder part of my life popped up. And because it was a traumatic event, I didn't realize how traumatic it was. I slipped into depression quite quickly. And it's only after that period of my life where I might have became very hard. And when we understand the brain, the trauma brain, the amygdala part where it processes fear, then you have the hippocampus memory, then you have the prefrontal cortex, that's the logical part of the brain, but it also uses up a lot of energy and glucose and fuel. So when you are fasting during a time when your brain is only trying to keep you safe and keeping you in survival mode,

it was very, very testing. And it was more testing because, one, you're questioning your religion and your faith, and then you can't tell anybody because it's guilt and shame. And I think most of my thirties, I was just trying to heal that part until I did that actual healing work. And every year is very testing for me. And like this year I managed to do 13, we're on the 13th fast right now and I haven't had any triggers. So I'm just so proud of myself just getting this far. Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Amara, you're listening to what Nazia is saying. You're a counselling psychologist. You've worked with Maudley's Eating Disorder Outpatient Team. You're a practicing Muslim yourself too. What advice do you

give to people with current or past eating disorders during Ramadan? I think it's, I'll give advice for people first of all to say that if you are suffering with an eating disorder and it's going to be harmful for you to fast you're exempt even in thinking about our spiritual practice and the laws of the Muslim faith and Islam. It's if you are healthy, you're supposed to fast. So if you're suffering with any kind of difficulty, mental health is included, which is not always talked about in the community,

but physical ailment, disease, illness, so you're exempt, please go and get help first, right? First protocol is get help, get healthy so you can fast. If you decide to fast whilst having disordered eating or an eating disorder, one is diagnosable and the other is basically just abnormal, unhealthy eating patterns which will eventually lead to an eating disorder, I would say make sure that you talk to someone and let someone know what you're doing. Get support. You absolutely have to make sure you wake up for sahur, which is the early morning meal.

So do not skip that at all. And then make sure you're having like a balanced nourishing meal as well. So complex carbs. A good example would be something like overnight oats, soaked in milk with healthy fats included, nuts and nut butters and things, or an omelette with some toast. And so don't skip, have your sahur and then make sure for your iftar meal, which is when the meal we have when we're breaking our fast in the evening, I would say maybe do this in sections,

like have a starter. So have your water, have your dates to break your fast. And then maybe like some yogurt and fruit or maybe a soup, have a break. So we're not feeling overly full too quick. Maybe go away and pray, come back and then have your main meal and again make sure this is balanced and nourishing because what we don't want is someone to feel like too full too quick and if that does happen and it happens to people without eating disorders as

well that's okay. Again this is what your support person is for and you could plan to go for a walk afterwards or get involved in whatever the family's doing or tidy up your dishes but having something planned for after eating as well is important to help you through that little wobble that you might have right with feeling full. It's just a feeling it will come and go and it's perfectly normal and healthy to have it. I just want to go back to something that you mentioned about eating disorders and the fact that there may be many many people who wouldn't tell anyone that they're keeping it a secret and then they wouldn't be able to share

that and then be exempt. So how do you get across that? Because for some people it's just not something they would want to talk to their family about or explain. Yeah it's a really tricky one. I would say as well like if you go to your GP and ask for help, if not even speaking to a friend, like maybe it's someone out with the community or not within your family, like people aren't going to judge you or think bad of you, you know everyone has difficulties in life and problems with eating are real, it's not just something that's in your head. You know they get worse if you leave them untreated. So what we know statistically is someone's got an untreated difficulty with eating or eating disorder. If you

leave it alone it's going to get worse. So the key is to get in there early and get them help and treatment. So speak to anyone you trust, whether it's a friend, whether it's a teacher at school, someone at uni. It might be more comfortable talking to someone not in the family unit for example. Or I'm happy for people to even reach out to me and get signposted places, right? Like a culturally aware practitioner who understands the difficulty as well. People within your community, your mosque, your Imam. Some are really well informed about mental health, some not so much, but there are people out there happy and willing to help. Nazia, did you feel any issues with kind of guilt for not fasting?

Every single year, every single day of the month. And it was embarrassing actually, because I used to watch my 90 year old grandma fast when we used to break our, it starts at nine o'clock in the summer. And it used used to make me feel like a horrible person like I wasn't good enough and I think that was the core of it I never felt good enough in anything growing up and the eating disorder was like a control and now I openly speak about it because it's awareness for the South Asian community and the programs I developed was I was my first client there's more Nazis out there we need to bring

about these conversations so people become knowledgeable and they're able to have these conversations with their young daughters because the young daughters are now coming to therapy and they need it and I didn't have access to therapy to speak about this because I didn't even know it was labeled as an eating disorder. It's only when I went to a fitness coach in my 30s and the lady who asked me to write down my eating habits and then she asked me what is going on here looking at my behavior patterns. I was like oh yeah by the way um I used to have this issue with eating and she's like well you had anorexia I'm like oh that's a thing oh you had bulimia. I knew I struggled with something I just didn't know what it was. There wasn't a terminology then. And now that I understand it, I have so much grace

and mercy for myself and I can understand it and identify it with young females that come in when they have root cause issues and it's going back to what is the root cause and why is it happening for them to come back to their true and authentic self. Dr. Amaro, just briefly if you can, there are things that people can do if they can't fast, aren't there? Yes, of course people can engage in like dhikr, which is like a different form of worship. So go to join the mosque, join women's groups, listen to podcasts, do anything creative, anything in line with their faith that helps them feel they're practicing in other ways, getting involved in charity, community work, if they're comfortable in being involved in the

Iftar meals and preparing, being around family in general. There's so many different forms of worship and the main thing is they're exempt and God is merciful so it's not like they're going to be punished or they're doing something wrong. Dr. Omar Naseem and Nazia Khatun. If you or someone you know is affected by what we've been discussing, there are links to support on the BBC Action Line website. Still to come on the programme, the Grammy award winning country music trailblazer, Lainey Wilson. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you cannot join us live at 10am during the week. Just subscribe to the Daily Podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Now let us turn to some jobs that you may not have considered before. I learned about

them in a new podcast called Inside Counter Terrorism Policing. It features five women working in a range of roles across the UK who have shared their story with the aim of inspiring others to consider a career in national security and policing. For some of the women involved, it is the first time they have spoken publicly about their work and to do so safely, their identities have been protected. I was joined by one of the women who has taken part in the series, that's Emma, not her real name, who explained her role as a handler of covert sources. Also, we had Vicki Evans, who's a senior national coordinator for counterterrorism policing for the UK.

Vicki started by giving me some background about why this podcast was made. So across policing, like lots of public sector organisations we're always looking for new ways to reach audiences, to reach the public and highlight the work we do and the challenges we face. Now that's particularly difficult in counterterrorism policing and national security because it's really difficult to talk openly about a lot of the work that we do, particularly because sometimes for security reasons but also for the safety of our teams and we recognise podcasts are a fantastic way of connecting with that human

conversation, giving extra insight. And we thought it was a really good way to highlight the outstanding work by some amazing women on International Policing Day. And hopefully people will listen and be inspired to consider careers with us. I found it quite gripping listening to it, I have to say listening to your story as well, Emma. But you're working to attract women into these roles, Vicky? Definitely, I mean we're always looking to attract different people from all sorts of backgrounds into counter-terrorism policing. But often counter-terrorism policing perhaps isn't a career that women would naturally think about so we wanted to highlight the vast array of opportunities both in operational roles and in enabling services. I did have a look and you have this range of roles that's already up there shall we say on

your pages as well but you know some listening will say there have been so many questions raised about the effectiveness of police especially there's been this loss of trust in the police by women. You'll remember this just last month that Commissioner Mark Rowley said that policing is now in a hopeless position after a High Court ruling on vetting. He said there's now no mechanism to get rid of Met officers who are not fit to keep their vetted status, including those who cannot be trusted to work with women. What would you say to somebody who has that mistrust?

I completely understand, given everything that's happened, why people would feel that way. And Commissioner Rowley has obviously highlighted concerns around some of the recent events. Our hope is with these podcasts that we demonstrate that we have really talented, successful women who are thriving in our teams in counter-terrorism policing and give people that reassurance that there are opportunities for them. We know that a huge amount of work has been done, not just in the Met but across policing, to drive change and we are absolutely continuing those efforts. But what I would say is

this hopefully shines a light on some of the great opportunities and the inspiring females that we have, changes driven by bringing in different people with different thoughts and perspectives and passion and we are absolutely committed to that in counterterrorism policing. And I will come back to that but let me jump over to Emma, a member of police staff at Counter Terrorism Policing, who's taken part in the podcast. You are a handler of covert sources. What does that mean?

So I'm responsible for the management of the brave people who choose to report on national security threat and risks. Above anything else, I manage their welfare, safety and protection. And this starts from recruiting them and then developing them and directing their activities into spaces of national security concern and managing the associated risks. So let me think, basically there's an area, whether it's a certain part of the country or a certain, I don't know, community, whatever it might be, you need to find people who are going to tell you what's happening in there. Yeah, so we look for people who can give police unique access into the spaces that

we can't go and we look for anyone and everyone who can help us do that. How do you do that? I'm sure you can appreciate there's some of the intricate details of how we go about that we can't discuss. Give me broad strokes. Yeah, it will all depend on the threats. So that could genuinely be anyone and everyone. And people might not know that they have people within their remit that we're interested in, but there's no sort of specific skills or experiences that someone needs to help us. It's all about getting their

buy-in and understanding what they can help us report on. I'm fascinated by this. Like, I'm wondering how you get the buy-in, when you spot the person, how do you know that's a potential person who could be somebody to help you, to inform really? Yeah, so it can be tricky to find that person and it's a long process, I think with... How long? It can vary. It could be really quick or really long. I think the point of CT is that we're in it for the long game. CT counter-terrorism. be really quick or really long. I think the point of CT is that we're in it for the long game. CT counterterrorism.

Correct, yeah. We're in it for the long game. So it can take sometimes a really long time. The sources work really hard to gain access to the unique area of national security that we might need access to that police just can't get any other means. And to have someone authorized as a source, we work within really strict legal parameters. It's got to be proportionate, ethical. So asking someone to be a source is not something we do lightly. And there's always got to be a reason for us to be in their life. Ethical is an interesting word, because as I was listening to your podcast, I mean, the

risks that could be involved for that recruit, for example, and also for you by extension. Yeah, it can be the nature of counterterrorism is serious and dangerous. But the bigger picture is working with people who can provide that access to intelligence that we can't get, perhaps by any other means is worth the risk. You had a convoluted road to it, would that be fair? Yeah I definitely knew I wanted to work within policing and I felt being a civilian... But even before that? Within criminology. Yes. Yeah so I started within criminology, I really enjoyed my degree and I wanted something that was going to be meaningful and impactive and I felt like within counterterrorism I would be part of the

most important efforts to keep the country safe. As I was on your website this morning, it brings it into stark relief, should I say, when the first thing that comes up is terror threat substantial. So this is something, of course, that is so much part of the day-to-day living, I suppose, that you're involved in. But day-to-day, I mean, this is the other part that is very compelling, is that your loved ones don't know what you do. That's right, yeah, they aren't aware of my role. How difficult is that? It's easier than it sounds. Really?

Because if I limit what I share, that's only going to help them, because every time I'd go to work, they'd be terrified for me. And there's no need to be. There's intense training and there's a really great team behind me and my colleagues before we go and sit in front of people who we ask to help the police and provide information. So I can limit what I share which also protects me but it protects the sources who decide to work with us. But what about after a really difficult day and I can only imagine, I imagine no two days are the same, I imagine you have this variety, I imagine you have some very very tough days, I don't know, because something can kick off as we know even

with terror threats for example and you can't tell anyone. No and I think the focus on teamwork is huge within our department and we all get on extremely well and it's one of those departments where you really do need to be open and it's a safe place to say when you're not okay something that is triggering for me might not be triggering for my colleague. So being able to have a great team provides that support where I won't be sharing at home why my day might have been so bad. And coming back to your job again there was one line that struck me

which was like a recruit for example could be that everything they are saying could be masking what they are not saying. Yeah. How do you unpick that? I mean I'm just wondering your communication skills must be second to none. Yeah I think that's the if anyone was considering being a handler it would be your active listening and communication skills and often I might work with people who are scared to share the true reporting and so it's creating a space for them to be completely honest and share without prejudice and so it just being even down to like NVQs

like being open to that kind of like nonverbal cues so being open with my body language and maintaining eye contact and just making sure I'm being the person that they feel they can confide in. Are you very manipulative? No I wouldn't say I'm manipulative. Would you not have to be? Persuasive I think is a better word and I think the main point is just stressing that without it sounding dramatic perhaps there is no other means of getting the reporting that we need without the sources who bravely come on board and work with us and they are the unsung heroes they will never Get the the kind of publication they deserve because of the nature of this

work. So that makes it worth it. Do they get paid a lot of money? The ins and outs of how we run them, I'm sure you can appreciate we can't discuss, but you know, some people feel it's they are morally obliged to do this. And again, it's me asking those questions in such a way to be open of if you had the opportunity to stop a terrorist attack how would you feel about that? So Emma is one of the jobs fascinating that she is doing a cool job as you called it which you kept coming back to. Does being a woman make a difference? I'm thinking particularly a

role like Emma's approaching people. So I think the reality is diversity in our workforce in all senses, different thoughts, people from different backgrounds is hugely beneficial because the more difference we have in how people approach things the different skills and that's not just about somebody who's female but across the board people coming from different walks of life with different experience, enrich our workforce and make these incredibly challenging roles effective and efficient and ultimately helps keep the public safe.

Thanks very much to Vicki Evans and also to the woman we're calling Emma. And inside Counterterrorism Policing, the podcast is available now wherever you listen to your podcasts. Right. Imagine you have just got home from a well earned holiday with your friends. You're relaxed and excited to be reunited with your family, only to be branded online as the worst wife and mother for taking that trip. Well, that is what happened to Frankie Bridge. The Saturday star and Loose Woman presenter received backlash on social media after taking a break with her friend and fellow singer Floor East. This was following health struggles. Her husband and her mother were looking after her two sons. Frankie

took to social media to hit out at the double standards as she saw them for women when it came to parenting and she joined me on Woman's Hour earlier this week. In a moment we'll be hearing from parenting coach Camilla McGill but first here's Frankie. So I've been really busy like everyone else we're all busy we're all tired and my husband and I were discussing what I wanted to do for my birthday and I was like you know what all I want to do is I just want to feel the warmth on my skin and I just want to sit with someone in silence and do nothing, you know. And he was like, well, you should, you should go away. And I could come up with a million reasons why I shouldn't do it.

You know, the kids, my youngest is like, really has like attachment anxiety. So I didn't want to leave him, leaving Wayne to do all the, all the school drop-offs and pickups and the list goes on, work, everything. And he was just like, no, you need to go and do it. Just go away with your friend and relax. So I did just that. And I don't often look at comments and actually it was my friend that had a look at them. And it just made me realise how big the disparity is between men and women in general, to be honest. But also just the fact that everyone had so much to say about me going away without my husband and my kids. You know, I was selfish, I was the worst parent. How does my husband feel about me going away on my own? How could I leave my kids? And they didn't hurt, but it just annoyed me that we're still,

in 2025, making women feel bad for putting themselves first. I saw in your post that you said a quote, you reluctantly took the holiday squeezed in at a time that will cause minimal damage to the boys' schedule and thinking even the language you're using there suggests that you have to justify the trip. Yeah, well I also think I had to justify it to myself. Because when you do have children, I think we've always been taught that the minute you have children, your whole life has to be dedicated to them. And obviously it is. My day-to-day life is dedicated to them. But I think what people forget, and which I didn't realise before I had kids, is that the minute you have children, you're parenting all the time,

whether you're at home or whether you're away from them. You know, I'll still be getting phone calls from the school, I'm still in charge of their schedule, what they need in their bags that day, they'll get a birthday present for Tommy's birthday at the weekend, this, that, the other. And I think as a working parent, I do often feel guilty that I'm not at home every single day for every single moment already. So to then go and take that holiday felt like a really selfish act and it shouldn't.

And I want to come back to the double standard with your husband as well in just a moment, but I'm going to cross over to Camilla for a moment. Your first thoughts? It does. I completely agree. It makes me sad that why should we have to justify it? I actually think it's important for the children to have some time away with us. I really understand what Frankie says. One of her children's got attachment to anxiety,

but I'm just a big believer in helping them, supporting the children to become a bit more resilient. And also, they tend to think we're there to meet their every need. Children are designed to be egotistical so that we care for them. But it's a really important role model. I mean, Frankie's got two boys, but I think it's a really important role model for girls and for boys, to see that their mother needs to have a break and it saddens me. This need to justify it, that you know well I've been working really hard and I've had so much on, it doesn't need to be that way. We just need to have a break sometimes. Let me read some of the comments coming in, Frankie and Camilla. Sally, in 1998, my sister accused me of abandoning my son when I went to China for a week. Abandoning. My ex-husband was and really is a good dad and I had no hesitation in taking the opportunity I was given.

To think this is still the case today is unbelievably disappointing women should support each other Well, I don't know was it women or men commenting Frankie? There's a lot of women. Okay. Let us continue despite having listened to women's hour for over 15 years I've never contacted you before I live with my two teenage daughters and husband I visit my elderly dad once a month for 72 hours before I set off I make sure everything is sorted for my family. Meals planned, sporting transport schedules, uniforms ready. And there hadn't been one occasion that my father hasn't asked me to thank my husband for letting me come to visit.

It drives me insane. Literally nothing alters for my husband when I'm not there. But it's a whole different ball game. When he goes away is quite the list of responsibilities that woman has gone in touch about, that she is planning before she even takes 72 hours away and mentions the double standard, which it is for her husband. First, how did Wayne feel when he saw the comments coming in? He called them a name that I shall not repeat. OK. I just, I actually asked him, I said to him,

Wayne, just as out of interest, when you went away with the boys or when you went skiing, did anyone send you any comments or did anyone ask you how I felt about you being away? And he was like, not one person. Yeah, Camilla, absolutely. And I don't want to menbash. A lot of my clients really do share responsibility. And a lot of my clients, partners, husbands encourage their wives to go away and take a break but there is a sort of typical thing that men step away and go skiing with the boys and women go around endlessly making lists and feeling guilty and preparing and guilt is a really interesting thing I've got four children. I know that I, many occasions, did feel guilt for various different things, but I think it

is possible to have that feeling and still do take the action. Would you say just push through the guilt? Just push through the guilt. Frankie, what about the response that you've got? Okay, we heard about some of the worst mother, wife and mother ever, but you've started a conversation. Yeah. And you know what? The response has been amazing. I think I've had nothing but positive comments this time around. I think sometimes when you call it out, people see it for what it is. We all kind of realized that we've been swept up in this old narrative that women stay in one lane and men stay in the other. And that's just not the case anymore. You know, my husband is retired. He's at home. He does as many school runs, probably

cooks more dinners than me. He's at home and he's present. And it's actually been really nice. And a lot of my friends have said to me, if you stood in a school playground and said to all the mums in that playground, do you want to go on holiday? Or even it doesn't have to be a holiday. Do you want to go away for the night or out for the day? We often feel guilty about doing anything for ourselves. They'd all put their hands up and say, yes, please. So I think it's just more being me saying it and admitting it, let's other people do the same.

Yeah, really interesting. Do you think going back to Camilla and her advice, do you think you could just push through that guilt perhaps in the future? Because I can hear that you were still, that you were questioning yourself or justifying it. I don't know, take a week next time. Yeah, I don't know if I could. I mean, I think definitely I did do it, you know, I did push through it and I do on a daily basis, like anyone with kids. I do work and there are sometimes I bend over backwards to get there for school drop-off, pick-up, football matches, you know, you name it.

But if I do miss anything, I do feel really guilty and I do push through that every day and I think that's something that I definitely need to work on and probably lots of other mums. Frankie Bridge and also Camilla McGill. Now to a little bit of country with Bell Bottoms and a large Stetson. The Grammy Award winning Lainey Wilson is a country music trailblazer. She has been awarded seven Country Music Association Awards, including Entertainer of the Year in 2023 and six Academy of Country Music

Awards. She is a prolific songwriter, she scored seven number one hits including Watermelon Moonshine and Heart Like a Truck. She's written songs for artists such as Post Malone, Dolly Parton, Luke Combs and Ashley McBride. Her latest album is Whirlwind and earned a Grammy nomination and she's on a Whirlwind world tour and is also one of the headliners at the Country to Country Festival at the O2 in London this weekend. Lainey joined me to tell me more about her recent performance at the Grammys. It was so much fun.

The very first time I had the opportunity to actually perform on the Grammys and just getting to share that stage with the people that I did it's it's wild life is cool. So this was Let the Good Times Roll by Ray Charles but it was a tribute to the late Quincy Jones which of course was he was a master of so many genres. You looked amazing on that you look amazing opposite me in the studio this morning you've got the fringing you've got the hat. I like it my hype girl I'll take it. It's a suede ensemble. You look great. Thank you. And you are in town of course with this huge country to country festival which is on at the 02 in London. I went last year. You are in for a good time. I am so

excited. I'm telling you like the first time I played C2C was 2019 and then in 2023 I was direct support for Thomas Rhett who was headlining and it's just cool to be back and be headlining myself. I know they are a very passionate crowd down there so I think... They are, that's the word, passionate. Definitely and so friendly as well. So you're definitely in for a great time. Now you've described your sound, and I love this, bell-bottom country. Tell us a little bit more

about that for the uninitiated. For sure, for sure. So bell-bottom country to me is really just kind of like leaning into the things that make you you. I'm from a town of 180 people. All that? In Louisiana. Yep, those exist. And then, yeah, just everything from the sound to the look to my story, I feel like Bell Bottom Country, that's what it means to me. And then when it comes to the sound, it's kind of fresh but familiar. Yeah. What was that like growing up in such a small town? Everybody knows you, you know everybody. They are there when you need them, they're there when you don't. They're just there. Now I love where I'm from, I am who I am because of the place that raised me. I'm very proud to be from the village of Baskin. Now you have obviously had this amazing career already even though you're only in your early

thirties. The latest album is Whirlwind which I mentioned earned a Grammy nomination. Why Whirlwind? Because that's what my life has been the last few years. That's the word that kept coming up. That's the word that I kept hearing. I would read a book and I'd see the word Whirlwind and I feel like writing this record helped me keep one foot on the ground during a time of my life that was like constantly

changing daily. One cowboy boot on the ground. That's it. You are, I think I read, trying to find peace at the eye of the storm. How do you do that? Keep my people close even though I do live eight hours from my family, my sister and her three little boys. It's important for me to FaceTime them, call them, like make sure that I'm keeping the people close that where I feel like Lainey the sister and the friend and the daughter and the dog mama, the fiance I got engaged a few weeks ago.

Congratulations. Thank you. All those moments and people that just kind of remind you who you are and encourage you to stay true to yourself and your story. So you talk about eight hours away, you're in Nashville. Yes. Now you went there after high school. I did. So lived in a camper trailer for a couple of years. So what age were you then? I was 19. And this mission, this ambition? Oh my goodness. I've been there for 15 years now, which is really, really hard to believe.

But at a very early age, after I wrote my first song at nine years old and went to Nashville for the first time. That's just so crazy. I just knew it. Like, I knew it in my heart. I knew it in my spirit. My parents helped me do anything that they possibly could just to get me to the honky tonk talent searches and the country Colgate showdowns,

anything for me to be involved. They knew that I wanted to do this. So they were helping me along the way. Were they big country music people? 100%. Where I'm from, country music is really more than a genre. It's a way of life. And so growing up, it was just the soundtrack of our lives.

And I just remember hearing the voices on the radio and feeling like I knew them. So nine-year-old, Lainey Wilson, when you went there, what do you remember about the Grand Ole Opry at that stage? Oh, I remember everything. I remember how the popcorn tasted. What did it taste like? It was better than ever. They always have the best popcorn. But I remember where I was sitting. I remember seeing Bill Anderson, Crystal Gale, Phil Vassar,

and just looking up there at that circle on the stage and thinking, I'm going to do that. I'm going to stand in that circle at some point in time. And you did. I did. You got inducted. I got inducted. I got inducted. Great to have Lainey Wilson, country music trailblazer with us this week. On Monday's program, it is five years on from the first COVID lockdown of 2020. So we will be discussing the impact of lockdown on babies

born during that time. Also, I'll be joined by the author Emma van Straaten to talk about her new novel, This Immaculate Body. It's about a cleaner who becomes obsessed with the man that she works for even though she has never met him. It has elements of femgor which Emma will explain. All that and more on Monday's Woman's Hour. Until I see you on Monday I hope you have a good weekend. Until I see you on Monday, I hope you have a good weekend. What do Bridgerton actor Adjoa Ando, nature presenter Rae Wynn Grant, and TikTok sensation Mama Siebs all have in common? They're all guests on Dear Daughter's Stars from the BBC World Service.

I'm Namulanta Kombo, and for the new series of Dear Daughter, I'm welcoming an all-star lineup to share stories of parenting in the spotlight. Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter wherever you get your BBC podcasts.