Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Siobhan McSweeney, Anne-Marie Duff, Mel C

Episode Date: May 21, 2022

Do you know much about nuns? Many people don’t, but some nuns in the US are turning to social media to bring religion into the 21st century. Sister Monica Clare from the Community of St John the Baptist went viral on Tik Tok after followers wanted to know her skin routine - now she answers people’s questions about being a nun. She joins Krupa as does Siobhan McSweeney, who plays fictional Sister Michael in Derry Girls to talk all about nuns. Actor Anne-Marie Duff talks to Emma about her new role as Constance, a working class matriarch from the Midlands in a new play that spans five decades of the lives, and deaths, of the Webster family. ‘The House of Shades’ by Beth Steel is on at London’s Almeida Theater until 18th June. Are you happiest when you’re in the office or do you prefer to work from home? Are you contemplating leaving a role because it’s no longer flexible? Dr Jane Parry, Associate Professor of work and employment at Southampton Business school and Guardian columnist Gaby Hinsliff speak to Emma about recent work from home data.After Little Mix said goodbye to their fans with their final show on Saturday before going on hiatus, it seems that for the first time in decades, Britain is without a major girl band. Emma is joined by Melanie Chisholm from the Spice Girls and music journalist, Jacqueline Springer.Women attending abortion clinics in the UK can face “regular harassment” according to a report from BBC Newsnight. Anti-abortion groups who gather outside services say they’re holding “prayer vigils” and offering help but some patients say they have been so distressed they’ve had panic attacks or even felt suicidal. Now charities are calling for protected areas outside all services which activists cannot legally enter. BBC Newsnight Correspondent Anna Collinson speaks to Krupa about it.A new exhibition exploring female spiritual beings in world belief and mythological traditions around the globe opens at the British Museum this week. Feminine power: the divine to the demonic is the first exhibition of its kind to bring together ancient sculpture, sacred artifacts and contemporary art from six continents. Belinda Crerar, Exhibition Curator at the British Museum and Dr Janina Ramirez, a British Art Historian and author of Goddess a book for children written to accompany this exhibition join Krupa.Photo Credit: Channel 4

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupal Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, I'm Krupal Bharti and welcome to your favourite time of the week. It's Weekend Woman's Hour. Every Saturday we helpfully round up some of the must-hear interviews from the week just gone and we've got a great show for you. Coming up, are you someone who wants to get back to the office? Or maybe you think you're more productive at home? We dig into

that also. She is also the sexiest character I've ever played because playing somebody who's so herself and has no filter and is so confident in herself and in her way in the world is a deeply sensual experience, actually. Siobhan McSweeney, who plays the fictional Sister Michael in Derry Girls, and TikTok star Sister Monica Clare talk to us about nuns. And we speak to Spice Girls star Mel C about UK girl bands. But first, Anne-Marie Duff, someone who doesn't shy away from playing tough,

loving and complicated women on stage and screen, is taking on her latest role. She's playing Constance Webster, the reluctant matriarch of a Midlands working class family, in a new play called The House of Shades by Beth Steele on at London's Almeida Theatre. The play charts one family's existence over five decades in this country, taking in Thatcher, Blair and Brexit and much more. She joined Emma and started off by explaining why she chose to take this role. It was the writing as it always is. I know people always, you know, we always say that, but it is the most spectacular play. The dialogue is so tasty and also it's another brilliant story about a thwarted woman and also about how unresolved trauma we're very generous with it and we share it with our families and and also just there's so many things it's a it's a political play but of course it's

fantastically domestic and then the domestic is always political, of course. But for me, just there are so many themes that dissect what it means to have been a woman in the 20th century and also to be a woman in the 21st century. I mean, there are, I mentioned some difficult issues there, also some things which are very dark. There's also a lot of humour as well in there. And you do get the chance to sing, I should say. You've got a wonderful voice. Well, that's very kind of you.

I don't know if I do, but that's very kind of you. It was just a lovely, lovely experience within that. And she also can, this particular character, riff off Betty Davis quotes, like someone could do, I don't know, football school. She's so fluent with them. And there's a sadness and a warmth you hold with her, this sort of character, because she doesn't have much money, but the money that she has, she spends on these beautiful dresses that in her life and in the parameters of her quite boxed in life she can't go anywhere amazing in these dresses oh no so she's living a sort of version of her life in her imagination you know and i think that's just you know think of all these aspirational people who never get to the other side of the sliding door you know and I think I think that certainly well the play starts the first chapter is in 1965 and at that time most certainly to feel that you had any control over

your destiny if you were female was very rare there was a story you know the fable had already been written this is where you'll end up and you'll be grateful. You know, so I think this is sort of, it's a kind of resource that people lean on, isn't it? Their imagination. When life doesn't turn out the way you want it to, you kind of create a version of it for yourself just to get up in the morning, I guess. Exactly. And also, you know, there's nothing more powerful than the stories we tell ourselves. Nothing. But there is that, it's an antidote, really, some of this play.

A woman's life throughout all this change as well. And you see her family grow up as well and become adults. You know, we do. We are fed a diet now, especially through social media of you can be what you want to be if you just try. But, you know, there was no way for a woman like this to change what was, if you like, the cards already laid out for her. Absolutely. And if you wanted something else, if you didn't want to be a mother, for example, that was desperately unacceptable. But also, I do think it's still very, you know, it's really pertinent, this notion that, you know, socioeconomics, we can't all be what we want to be. And it's a big lie for a huge part of our population.

So I think it feels very familiar to a lot of people still. And you could look at this as well, I mean, very politically, because there's rows in the family about politics, which I really enjoyed. Lots of this I enjoyed. But, you know know the idea of aspiration versus reality but also in light of the recent you know uh election results and what happened with the red wall seats and why they would then perhaps move some of those people as

they did in their numbers to the conservatives there is an explanation there that feels incredibly current as well as this narrative of you know what women had done to them and were doing to each other and doing to themselves. Were you drawn to that because it's so current as well as historic? Well, sometimes it just feels like we recycle, doesn't it? You know, everything changes and nothing changes. I mean, we talk about all sorts of things. There's an unwanted pregnancy in the play. We've got currently the whole situation with Roe versus Wade. We talk about there's a female character in the play who's a Thatcherite. She's a young woman

who's mad about Thatcher. And she talks about unemployment being the answer to tackling inflation. And what did we have a week ago, was it? You know, Boris is talking about laying off 90,000 people, because that will be really useful to tackle inflation. Well, he's also made a big virtue of the job numbers being what they are. But there's, you know, today, if we're talking about inflation, only yesterday, the numbers came out, you know, and this is people's lives right now. And the cost of living, you know, it's all in there, how people are trying to get by. And I think that's what's so clever about Beth's writing, that if you really are plugged into what it means to be part of a society, then really and truly the universe keeps throwing the same stuff on us until we work it out.

And we just aren't working it out yet. What did you make of this? It's actually a male character in the play. Your son, Jack, attacks the myth of feminine, working-class solidarity by arguing women have, while having a strong sense of community, have also historically kept each other tied to the home by shaming each other over the state of how clean their doorsteps are. It feels like easy propaganda, doesn't it? You know, to say that.

Although your character is so judgmental about having to go down the street and ask for a bit of help when there is something shameful, as she sees it, in her home. And it's so sad to see that, isn't it? Yeah, I guess it's, again, you know, it's the microcosm, isn't it? If you're not, if you have all that energy and you're not using it and all, you're very frustrated. And so what do you do? You make it about the minutiae, about the teacup or the doorstep or the, you know, so it's the battle, isn't it? But also it's the humour of it. And, but at that moment in the play, of course,

she's in a very frightened position. So I feel, I feel that she feels, I feel that she feels, I feel that she feels, but I mean. There's a lot of feels. There's a lot of feeling going on, but there's this notion of having let yourself down. And it's just the version of yourself that you present to the world becomes so important.

I mean, she's so unlikable at times, though. She is. She's destroying people around her. She destroys, she throws grenades into the situation. Well, I mean, to be at a, you know, a beer with her in the pub would be lethal. After a couple. But also she's a victim of,

you know, she grew up in a household that was full of domestic abuse. And as I said earlier, you know, what happens if you don't get the chance to resolve all those issues? But the point is, you can tell how much she loves

her family though at the same time, her children. And yet there's so much harm that she doles out as well. Because, you know, unless you get to testify, unless you get to own your own story, you're constantly asking for people to listen to you. I did read, Anne-Marie Duff, that you had a talking to yourself before you turned 50. You said it was always your scary age. Are you 51 now? Yes, I am. Thank you very much.

Come on. What did you say to yourself? Did you get yourself on board? How's it been? It's great. Of course, it's great because you are where you are. But you know, you have these versions of your life, don't you? We all do it. We play the movie forward and go, well, by this age. And then of course, that's not the truth at all. And yeah, so it's interesting. It's interesting. But I've, you know, there's so many extraordinary role models, aren't there, of my generation. So I'm lucky, really. Anne-Marie Duff there. The House of Shades is currently running at the London Almeida Theatre until the 18th of June. Next, according to data in the Financial Times newspaper this week, commuter numbers are still almost a quarter down on levels seen in February 2020 before coronavirus took hold. Findings from last year from the think tank the Resolution Foundation

showed that half a million women increased their working hours from part-time to full-time during the pandemic as they were able to work remotely. Last weekend, the Prime Minister continued to push for people to return to the office. But how has being able to work from home impacted your life? Are you more productive? Emma was joined by Dr Jane Parry, Associate Professor of Work and Employment at Southampton Business School and Guardian columnist Gabby Hinsliff. Dr Parry began by discussing how many people are currently working from home. We know that over a third of people are still working from home, at least sometimes. I mean, the centre of the discussion now is shifting away from working at home all the time to the

hybrid forms of working. So what combination of working in offices versus home works best for different kinds of jobs? And in terms of, I suppose, the reason for that, is that being business led? Is that employee led? What do we know about that? Well, the organisations that we spoke to in our research work after lockdown, it was trying to get that balance between the employer and the employee, right, because that's what needs to happen to make it successful, because there's been this huge building of goodwill and trust during the pandemic, which is a huge asset for businesses. They want to carry that with them in the next step and not alienate their staff like some of the kind

of more authoritarian messages about everyone get back to the office without kind of engaging in the nuance of what works best. Gabby, let me bring you in at this point. I introduced you as a columnist, but of course a political reporter for many years as well. What do you make of the politics of this?

It's slightly mad, I think. I mean, the prime minister feels very out of touch with what the reality of working life is now. You've got him saying, oh, everyone back to the office. And very clearly the trend is the other way. People's desire is the other way where they can change their way of working.

They want to. They absolutely see the advantage of that. And you have the prime minister and Jacob Rees-Mogg, you know, very stubbornly digging into this everyone back thing, which which I think is partly driven by a sense of, you know, who are the economic casualties if we don't go back to work? You know, if you're if you work in Presse-Manger or if you work for a commuter train company, you probably have a very different feeling about that than if you're going to benefit from working home. But I think it's partly that thing a lot of us have probably heard over the years from middle-aged male managers who just don't accept, if I can't see you in front of me, how do I know you're working? You know, there's this old, very old kind of lazy assumption that if you're working from home, you're not really working, you're really skiving. But to have the Prime Minister articulating that, I think is incredibly undermining for a lot of, you know, millions of women who work really hard and well from home

and are more productive, you know, when they work flexibly. It's kind of mad to have the Prime Minister repeating this kind of very lazy old trope about what working from home is. There's that element, there's definitely that reaction. And that has been definitely commented on by a lot of women. And I've certainly seen those sorts of responses across social media this weekend. But he claims it will lift productivity to be back together, revive town and city centres, and that he thinks staff will be more productive,

more energetic and more full of ideas. And while we have a lot of messages that I will come to about the benefits that you're talking about, Gabby, coming in from our listeners, I do just see a message that's come in saying that they feel very lonely and isolated and I would look for another job, but I'll have to take a large pay cut if I do read this message.

It's harming my mental health and I don't see a way out. What do you say about what the Prime Minister is trying to say, I suppose, about improved working and creativity? Well, the eminence on productivity is actually the other way. There's no mountain of evidence suggesting that companies that introduce flexible working increase their productivity. I think, I mean, I know what you mean as someone who's worked from home a lot for years. I know what you mean about, you know, feeling lonely and isolated. If all you're doing is staring at your spare bedroom wall for, you know, all day long, stuck in the house, that's pretty demotivating. But I think it's always about, A, I think Jane was right, you know, most people are going to

want a hybrid, they're going to want to be in some of the time, not in some of the time, it's about working out where you do the different bits of your job best. For people who are being forced into working from home, when they don't want to, that's no better than being forced to come into the office when you don't want to and I think the sort of missing piece of the jigsaw perhaps for people who are working constantly from home is the setting there's been a lot of investment in some places in setting up what's called co-working hubs which are like remote offices where lots of people who you know you can individually rent desk space and be around other people even when you're not in an office atmosphere. Because we all do need people to bounce ideas off sometimes and just, you know, get a bit of a bit of socialisation into your day.

Yes. And the other thing you've been looking at, and I've been reading your article this morning, looking at some of the numbers, but also what's happening is that outside of London and the major city centres, this actually is helping people. Well, this is the flip side of, you know, yes, you know, the centre of London might be a bit emptier if more people are working from home. But that, you know, that tends to re-energise and reinvigorate the places where people are actually living, you know, local high streets, the suburbs, towns outside London, outlying London. What I was looking at is the possibility for red wall areas, places like Stoke, which is massively invested in, you know, this kind of whole idea of high tech, work from home, remote working, would you have to, if you don't have to leave your hometown to get a decent job in a city, if you can do that job from where you are, you know, that's potentially a lifeline for those,

for those kind of towns that have felt, you know, have suffered for years from bright kids moving away to get better jobs. So there's always winners and there's always losers. And of course, in any economic change, it's really tough on the losers. But it'd be better if government sort of engaged in this argument and tried to find ways of reshaping what's happening for the public good rather than just standing on the sidelines shouting everyone back to the office when that's clearly not what either business wants at the moment or what... Although you have also found, Gabby, some insights and evidence

that there's not just shouting from the sidelines. There is engagement with this, with different parts of government looking at this. That's what's frustrating. I think there are parts of government that very clearly recognise, you know, the benefits potentially of having a lot of very frustrated Tory MPs who would like to see the government move faster on flexible working, you know, a lot of parts of government concerned with regeneration, a lot of serious work being

done behind the scenes on how the world of work is changing. But the public message people hear is this stuff about how if you work from home, all you do is traipse to the fridge and back, which I think says more about Boris Johnson and his approach to working from home than it does to most people's approach from working from home. Well, there suit everyone. There is a message here from PJ saying, I'm a writer, I work from home, I have a fridge. I also have self-discipline. Perhaps the Prime Minister should acquire some. But there's another one here saying this narrative is absurd.

Those working at home, or some or all of the time, are hopefully putting more money into their local businesses and supporting a better high street. Doing this should be applauded, not vilified, to talking about the local area and, if you like, the town centre that's closest to you with a smaller T, as it were. Jane, to bring you back into this, Dr Jane Parry, I mentioned there that if you're being forced to go back in full time,

people are then going to look to change jobs. That's what some of the data is showing, I believe. You tell us a bit more, but also, do you think this mindset shift is permanent? Yeah, it definitely is permanent because employers have had the one thing they've never had before, which is a whole set of evidence that it has worked for most office based jobs. And you can now organise work in a way that you can do that kind of productive report writing in a much more efficient way. I think the law firms that we spoke to in particular were getting quite worried about this mass resignation. And this is one of the first things that gets talked about in interviews now. What are your flexible working arrangements?

So organisations are having to respond to this and the winners and losers will kind of sort themselves out naturally. I think another important point to make about this is the inequalities around it that are being raised. For example, you mentioned about women who've been able to shift to full-time contracts because they're able to do this with flexible work. Older women, there's a third, half a million older women,

older workers have left the workforce because they haven't been able to work their work around care. So these are very real productivity losses that we will see. And also people with limited long term illnesses, much more likely to be able to work when they're working from home. And it's just sad if these productivity issues will get boiled down to eating cheese, when actually we have this huge opportunity to make work more inclusive and more productive, it's a win-win for everyone. Dr Jane Parry and Gabby Hinsliff there. And we got some emails from you on this.

Jane emailed to say, the attitude of bums on seats in the office all day is outdated. I work harder at home than in the office due to no chit chat or getting sidetracked. I love being in the office to socialise and catch up on news but I also love the ability to be at home to avoid a long expensive commute and commit to an evening activity without worrying about trains. And an anonymous one here says the new working from home mindset is beneficial to millions. If my job makes me go back into the office, I will quit.

To boost that hub feeling, maybe town centres need to pivot their purpose so that we use them differently. Now, let me ask you this. Who was your favourite girl band? I'm asking because last weekend, the hugely successful Little Mix said goodbye to their fans with their final show before taking a break. Now it seems that for the first time in decades, Britain is without a major girl band. Emma spoke to Melanie Chisholm or Mel C, as most of you may know her, Sporty Spice from the Spice Girls,

and music journalist and curator Jacqueline Springer about this. And she began by asking Mel C if she thinks it matters. Well, I think first of all, to talk about Little Mix, what an incredible band. And they've done something quite remarkable because obviously being a part of the Spice Girls, so proud of what we achieved and the legacy that we've left behind. But we really weren't together for very long in that first phase of the Spice Girls. Little Mix have been around for over a decade. And I think for any pop band, female, male, you know, mixed gender, it's hard.

You know, the schedule is tough. It's hard to maintain that success, that level of workload. And they've done an incredible job. So I'm a huge fan. My daughter's 13. So she's really grown up with them and she was very sad to see this little pause in the Little Mix proceedings and I think it's a shame you know it's a real shame but the music industry is looking quite different right now the landscape is different there's not really a boy band out there at the moment either

you know so these things are changing and the thing I hope for the girls from Little Mix is that they get a fair crack of the whip as solo artists because I think as a woman that's where it changes you know we have girl bands that have success but to go on as a solo artist as a female seems to be a lot harder for the girls as it has been for the boys. Oh why do you think that is i think it's for all of those reasons that the spice girls first started speaking about girl power because we were told girl bands don't sell it's young girls that buy records of course now it's all about streaming we consume music so differently but i think when you're out there, as any member who's been in a band going solo, it's tough.

But I think for those reasons, the boys do tend to fare better. I think there's, you know, obviously there's the whole ageism situation that some of us more mature artists find in pop music. But some of the boys will get played on certain radio stations where the girls don't get a look in when they reach a certain age. So that's another little discussion we should have at some point. We should. You sound like you're in the know about that. And I also wonder for you, I mean, do you think we may have grown out of girl bands in some way? Because, you know, listen, I'm going to full disclosure. Part of my weekend was organising my sister-in-law's hen do, which did involve a large pink party bus to my shame and pride.

And we did play out Spice Girls at one point. And it was a great moment. I didn't actually know we were going to be talking today. And we all just came together and we were singing. And it's such, it takes you back straight away to where you were at that particular moment in your life. But also you just feel connected to the women singing. And I feel like every generation kind of needs that.

But maybe it's not it's not right anymore I don't know what do you think you know I think with music like with so many things with fashion you know we go in cycles don't we and the world is so different now you know I'm trying to view it through my daughter's eyes which is you know it's so different we're not really the demographic are we we're not looking out there for the next pop band but I think you're right you know doing the shows with the Spice Girls 2019 we were lucky enough to do a stadium tour here in the UK and Ireland and it felt like a golden age to be a Spice Girl because so many of our original fans from the 90s now were able to come back it felt very nostalgic it felt very inclusive and I agree We all need those moments for the future to be able to come together and kind of relive those simpler times of growing up.

Jacqueline, let me bring you in at this point. What do you think the gap's all about? Is it about cycles? There'll be another one or are we changing? And we perhaps in the era of social media, we can't kind of accept people being put together for the purposes of music i don't think it's about whether a group comes together organically or are put together it does come down to timing it comes down to their look it comes down to you know the quality of the production it comes down to whether or not what they're saying actually hits your heart hits your mind you know know, there's so many elements that there's a really therapeutic relationship we have with groups when we are maturing. And they allow us to have a conversation,

even though it's one-sided seemingly, where they understand things. So when your parents are resisting the idea that you're maturing, that you have crushes, that you want to stay out, that you want your own money, you have these groups creating these anthems. And this goes all the way back, you know, back to the 50s, you know. Remember that, admittedly, it was a male group, you know, that song Get a Job, where they were actually mocking the parents' demands for chores to be met before you could actually go off and just be who you want to be and I think in answer to your question one thing that I think is really important I absolutely understand that

we're talking about pop groups here but there are there are single sex groups of every musical genre already out there and the idea of being pop is not necessarily the objective. Being wealthy and being good and being popular to your peers, to your demographic is. And so it's very interesting to consider what constitutes a major pop group, because depending, just like you're saying, in terms of your age demographic, your favourite group is your group and you take them on throughout the rest of your life. And you have a bond with them and also you, of course, go towards those who you feel represent something for you in your life and how you are. Yeah, you have a route with people about who's the most important, who's the prettiest, you know, and all of these things spill out.

But I also think that, just as Melanie said, the landscape, the media platform landscape is very different. There's a group called Flow who work with collaborators, that little mix of work with MNEK and others. And they're bubbling up on a number of different platforms on TikTok, as well as, you know, having a really sly and nonchalant couple of seconds promo on Instagram before they even hit the screen. Well, I was also thinking about, I don't know, I was thinking about Eternal this morning. I was thinking about All Saints.

I was thinking about these different moments in my life that I could think about women and what they were saying through pop music. I take the point, we're talking about that particular genre. Do you think, just picking up a little bit of what Melanieanie was saying there do you think girl bands are treated as seriously as other music artists is there a difference in in how they're viewed and perhaps there isn't there's still that concern they won't be as commercially successful well i think the whole vernacular of how we actually relate to um artists is is needs needs a good bleaching because simply because you know they're called bands and boy

bands many of them don't play instruments they're called girl groups these are women invariably and so we have this idea where everybody's infantilized or their their abilities are either minimized or suggestive of greater skill and the very idea that you don't make the kind of music you did when you were in the group of course not because it's you when melanie um collaborated with lisa left eye from tlc nobody expected that when mel b collaborated with missy elliott nobody expected that and so what you have with little mix they collaborated with with um missy elliott with um nik Nicki Minaj and others. These are things where you can actually speak up and say, do you know what, for the group, group thing, group objective,

that's that. For me, I want to do X, Y, and Z. And whether or not, and then we also have the idea that, the idea, the fact that people age and people want to have families and people may not want to have families. People don't want to do the record tour record tour schedule which is deeply damaging for the mental health as well and then our expectations as we grow why why aren't they making music for us and so in answer to your question no women are not treated the same way as they um when they when they when they

emerge from from their from their group ranks and. But then you do have these surprises with boy band members as well. Yeah, well, of course, and how they then move on. Melanie, to come back to you on that point, I think the other thing is that we don't like our, and I'm speaking collectively here, of course, I'm generalising as well, but typically we don't like our girl bands,

and as Jacqueline says, women actually, to age. And we want them to stay the way they are. And then there's a lot of upset if there are changes because people do get fixed. Did you ever find that suffocating or difficult? I think it's kind of become like the new little mission, you know, post the girl power era. Obviously, I still love making music. I still still tour I'm still active in that world but you do find you know there's there's new barriers being put up at every turn so that's you know but I feel like you know generally for women we're coming into this time where you know middle-aged

women which is you know what I suppose I have to admit I am these days is I feel like it's our time you know we're speaking up now and we've got something to say and and I still love music I love pop music I love very young artists I love older artists and I feel like there has to be an audience who want to hear what a more mature female pop artist has to say you know so I think we do we have to kind of change the thinking behind that but I suppose when people come up to you in the street and I I'm sure they still do, is it frustrating? Or do you embrace it, the whole sporty spice thing, and they still want to kind of bring up, you know, you when you're in your 20s? Absolutely. I completely embrace it now. I went through many years of not. I've had a journey with this whole thing. But I think, you know, going back to 2019, again, being back on stage with the girls, it gave us an opportunity to really appreciate everything that we'd achieved.

And it gave you this moment to go, wow, I'm not either a Spice Girl or a solo artist or a mum. I'm all of these things all of the time. And that was like a light bulb moment for me. And yeah, I completely embrace it. And I'm so proud to be a Spice Girl and when people call me former Spice Girl I get a little bit cross because I think once you're a Spice Girl you're always a Spice Girl so um yeah I'm very very proud and always happy to to see people out and about celebrating that. Mel C and Jacqueline Spring are there still to come on the program

do you know much about nuns stay tuned to hear that discussion and a new exhibition on feminine power. Now, it's more than four years since the UK's first so-called buffer zone, a legally protected space, was set up outside an abortion clinic in the London borough of Ealing. The aim was to prevent anti-abortion activists approaching and often upsetting patients while they were accessing a legal health service. Campaigners had hoped buffer zones would soon become the norm, but since 2018 only two more have been set up. Women attending the clinics are reporting harassment on a regular basis, while anti-abortion groups who gather outside say they're holding

prayer vigils and offering help. I spoke to BBC Newsnight correspondent Anna Collinson who covered this. She started off by telling me what she's heard from some women using these clinics. We've spoken to women directly. We've seen hundreds of handwritten impact statements written by women and their close loved ones. And time and time again, we see the same sort of words, fear, shame, feeling intimidated. We've even seen people have experienced panic attacks after coming into contact with these anti-abortion activists. One person even said they felt suicidal. Some staff we spoke to in clinics said, well, you know, some women can handle it. They've taken it in their stride. It doesn't bother them. On one day, if there is a person gathering outside or there is a gathering

outside, at least one patient will feel affected and they may need to escort them in or escort them out. And that's all coming on a day which can be incredibly traumatic for patients. And just so we're clear, Anna, what kind of tactics are used by these groups gathering? Sure. So, I mean, it can range from a wide range of things. They may hand women or their loved ones who are escorting them in leaflets, which clinics say contain misleading or medically inaccurate information. They may be chanting loudly and patients can hear them while inside the clinics. They may block routes, they may knock on cars. We've seen pictures of babies clothing in hedges. But what anti-abortion activists would say is they are holding prayer vigils, that they are only there to help and

support, that they're not there to harass. And ultimately, it's their their rights and by sort of creating or blocking them from doing that that would be criminalizing prayer. Let's talk about buffer zones and just so we are clear what exactly what exactly are they and what powers do they give to the police? Sure so a buffer zone is effectively a protected space out of an area and it can be used for all sorts of different things like antisocial behaviour. But in this case, it can be set up outside an abortion clinic, hospital or service. And it's carried out by using the Antisocial Behaviour Crime and Policing Act. So councils in England and Wales have the power to enforce a buffer zone via a public space protection order. And that gives local police the power to move people on if they enter that

or even find them. Now, we found that campaigners, the first one was set up outside a clinic in Ealing in London in 2018. And at the time, campaigners hoped that that would soon become the norm, that other local authorities would quickly follow suit. But in those four years, as you've already mentioned, only two other councils have followed. And that's in Richmond, in London and in Manchester. And that's despite many areas, including Bournemouth, which is a particularly strong example, saying that they really need one to protect patients, staff and their loved ones. And so the key question here is why have these places not been as successful in getting these buffer zones implemented? Well, I think that what we found is that there does need to be an evidential threshold to met,

but different councils view that level of evidence differently. In the case of Bournemouth, they've been handed more than 600 pieces of what campaigners and staff call evidence. We've seen nine folders from the BPAS clinic there that included statements from rape victims and people with learning difficulties. That's been shared with the council but the council, Bournemouth Christ Church and Poole Council, says the situation is under consistent view and if the evidential threshold is met formal action will be considered. So currently they're saying there isn't enough evidence. The question for all those gathering evidence, and it's not just in Bournemouth, I've heard of examples in Leeds, there's action taking place in Birmingham. The question for all those gathering evidence is how many women need to feel harassed before action is taken? And actually, what many people have told me is actually the harassment of women is almost accepted in some cases. The thing that will sort of tip the argument is if residents are affected by it, if they view it as antisocial behaviour.

And if a council is particularly engaged in the issue, then that might guarantee a buffer zone. But really, ultimately, this is seen as this shouldn't be decided on a local level. It's extremely complicated. Councils are incredibly stretched resource wise. They should instead be national legislation because currently the system also creates a postcode lottery. So even if Bournemouth Council do set up a buffer zone, that would effectively just move the gatherings elsewhere to other clinics so other women are affected. So it doesn't really solve the problem is what many would argue. And linked to what you're saying, it's important to stress, isn't it, that this is a devolved issue, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. So we were really keen to look at this as a UK-wide issue because

things are moving in different parts of the UK differently. So, for example, in Northern Ireland, they're sort of leading the way on this. They recently passed a bill to create buffer zones, but this has been referred to the Supreme Court now, and they're going to decide whether it interferes with the rights to protest. While in Scotland, the First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, has pledged to chair a roundtable summit to discuss buffer zones after expressing her support for them. And that's come off the back of calls from rival politicians

saying she's not moved quickly enough on that. Meanwhile, in England and Wales, the situation remains under review. So currently the focus is on councils taking that action. BBC Newsnight's Anna Collinson there. When you hear the word none, what do you think of? Perhaps an older woman in a wimple living in a convent, not allowed to go out or have modern gadgets? Such is the stereotype that many of us think of. But thanks to social media, nuns from across the world are sharing what it's really like to be a part of a religious order. I spoke to two women who are both nuns in different ways whom you might recognise. Sister Monica Clare is the Mother Superior at the Community of St John the Baptist

in New Jersey in the United States. Siobhan McSweeney is the actress who plays the brilliant Sister Michael in the sitcom Derry Girls. I began by asking Sister Monica what she did before she became a nun. I worked in entertainment advertising in Hollywood for 20 years as a photo editor. And it was a very interesting thing to be a closet religious person in the midst of all these non-believers, unchurched people. Los Angeles is not exactly a very churchy town. So I was a weirdo. I didn't drink. I didn't do drugs. I didn't party, anything like that. So sometimes people would joke around with me and say, are you one of the Osmonds or something? Like, what's going on with you? I had been called ever since I was a little girl, like seven or eight years old, but I found that

it was very culturally unacceptable for a woman to make that choice. I grew up in the South, in Georgia, and we were expected to get married and have kids. That was the traditional women's role. So my family, my friends, nobody was open to the idea of me becoming a nun. So I just suppressed it and tried to be normal for the next, you know, 40 something years of my life. And at one point I just decided I can't pretend to be normal anymore. I'm going to do this crazy counter-cultural thing of joining a convent and rejecting the women's roles that were sort of being forced on me all my life. And it's the best decision I've ever made.

The reason we invited you on, Sister Monica Clare, is because you post these tremendously entertaining videos about convent life on social media, on the platform TikTok. First of all, how did you discover TikTok? Well, I had heard of it and I thought it was for, you know, like 11 and 12 year old kids dancing and playing pranks on each other. I really didn't think there were any adults on this format. And then one of my friends who used to be my photo assistant in Hollywood called me up and he said, you've got to get on TikTok.

It's wonderful. And I was going, why? I'm not a kid. He said, no, there are grownups on there. And they're really. A few, yeah. Yeah, a few. And he lured me in by saying there are lots of funny cat videos on TikTok.

So that was it for me. The cat videos were sort of the gateway drug for me to start watching other videos. And I realized I could adjust the algorithm. And then I found all these pastors and priests and some nuns on there. I was really impressed. So I thought, wow, this is great that they're doing this. And maybe I could do this. I even asked my therapist, do you think it would be weird if I started making videos on TikTok? And my therapist said, go for it. That's a fantastic idea.

And now you've got thousands of followers because they love what you're doing. You are posting videos of how you live your life. So everything from recipes to pranks to dancing to viral trends to riding lawnmowers playing basketball one of your most popular ones is about what you can fit into your nun pocket i mean how deep are those pockets they're huge they're the size of a paperback book and not even a small paperback like you could carry a couple of books in these pockets absolutely i mean you've talked about having a swiss army knife in there uh sweets lip balm a pencil pen holder wipes tissues devotional objects migraine medication and plenty more i need to ask you what kind of a reaction have you had from people

i'm overwhelmed at how positive the reaction has, because there can be a lot of negativity towards organized religion and nuns. And some of it is really justified because organized religion, a lot of people have been traumatized by it and they're really trying to recover from that. But I was shocked that I got any followers at all because I'm such a niche as an Anglican communion, none, most people have no idea that we even exist. And to have 161,000 people interested in, you know, my videos about what's in my pocket and what we eat on Good Friday, I was astonished and really pleased. The response has been so positive that it gave me a little bit more faith in what's out there on social media. Women in particular are my biggest demographic. I'd say 90% of my followers and viewers are women and they're either from the millennial or Gen X age groups.

Oh, interesting. Do stay with us, Sister Monica Clare. I want to introduce you to Siobhan McSweeney, who's also a nun on screen, but of course not in real life. You are the fictional nun, Sister Michael from Derry Girls. He was captured the public's imagination. Would Sister Michael go on to TikTok? No. Put bluntly. Just tell us about how the role came to be and what drew you to it.

I think in direct contrast to Sister Monica on the line there, I think Sister Michael is a nun to not spread the word, to keep away from people, to be cloistered away. And I think her particular burden is that she has been placed in a school in Northern Ireland, an all-girls school in the 90s, in a Catholic girls' school. And she very much is a reluctant teacher there and a reluctant headmistress.

The role came about from Lisa McGee's own experience growing up in the 90s in Northern Ireland. And I think she's an amalgamation of various teachers. And also, I think, in Irish society, what a Catholic nun represents as well you know I was not taught by nuns I've never knowingly met one apart from virtually right now hello sister but she's giving you a big wave oh yes wave right back I had to laugh when you said that nuns have deep pockets because in Ireland that is certainly the case that Irish nuns do have very deep pockets.

And there's a very interesting conversation trying to get them to share what's in their pockets right now. So I think what's interesting about Sister Michael is that she's very totemic. She's very iconic of what an Irish experience would be. You talk about Lisa McGee's personal experience as being so central to this storytelling. Do you think that's why the series has been so successful? Because it really comes from a place of authenticity. I think so. I think there are a few reasons

why Derry Girls has been successful. First and foremost is the quality of the writing and the quality of the jokes. It's extraordinarily done. why Derry Girls has been successful. First and foremost is the quality of the writing and the quality of the jokes. It's extraordinarily done. Secondly, I have learned that the more specific and authentic an experience is, the more universally it can be enjoyed. And thirdly, I think there was an audience

waiting for Derry Girls for a comedy with deep heart, deep intellect and deep authenticity about a population that's neglected. And not only is it a neglected population with regards to geography, but we're talking about a demographic as well. Girls had no role models, comedic role models really to look at. And they would be the sort of the Egypts in their own lives. You know, they would be the satellite to the Egypt. We never got to play the Egypts in their own lives. You know, they would be the satellite to the Egypt. We never got to play the main Egypt in our own lives.

And I think with Derry Girls, the gang of girls, and I include, of course, the We English fellow always in that, they get to be the main Egypts in their own lives. So there was an audience waiting for it. There was an audience waiting to see women be silly, women be stupid, women be centre of their own lives and women run households and run schools and run their own lives. So it was a combination of all these factors that have made it so successful. I mean, I get letters from all over the world. And I'm like, how can you respond to Derry girls? And they are, they identify with it completely.

And I think that's a really special thing. Have any nuns got in touch with you? Not to my knowledge, but I'm sure you'd be able to, you know, the disguise is quite, they could be right here. I don't know, ninja nuns, they could be right here, jumping down off the studio ceiling. No, no, they haven't gotten in touch.

Can I talk about the word fun? Because Sister Monica, you're clearly having fun. And Siobhan, you are a stunning character, certainly as Sister Michael. But is she much fun to play? Oh my God, she's amazing to play. It is the best character I have ever, ever played. And I don't know, Sister, if you would, I mean, I presume you wouldn't agree with this, but there's a certain amount of, I've said that she is also the sexiest character I've ever played because I find confidence,

I'm trying to look at you there on the screen We need to get a response but go ahead I find playing somebody who's so herself and has no filter and is so confident in herself and in her way in the world is a deeply

sensual experience actually Do you know what I mean? I think I'm following the world If you feel at ease in the world, if you feel at ease in the world, it's a beautiful thing. And Sister Michael has never been anything other than herself. Sister Monica, I've got to give you a chance to respond to that, the fun, the sensuality. Yeah, I mean, I can really understand what you're saying there, because one thing that I've read and learned about TikTok as opposed to other social media is that people are responding to authenticity and this is a not

heavily curated bunch of content. It's just people being awkward, being themselves, bad lighting, bad cinematography and people are drawn to that because Instagram was so curated and perfect, especially women on Instagram. They had these perfect bathing suit pictures and things like that. And on TikTok, I've noticed that a lot of people are just being themselves. And it's fascinating. It's a lot more interesting to me to see authenticity and especially with women to take away all those masks that we usually are forced to wear and just be ourselves. Sister Monica Clare and Siobhan McSweeney there. This week saw the opening of a new exhibition exploring female spiritual beings in religious

and mythological traditions around the globe at the British Museum. Feminine Power, the Divine to the Demonic, is the first exhibition of its kind to bring together ancient sculpture, sacred artefacts and contemporary art from six continents. It will look at how femininity has been perceived across the world and how feminine power has been used in deities, goddesses, demons, saints and other spiritual beings. I spoke to Belinda Crearer, exhibition curator at the British Museum, and Dr Yanine Ramirez, a British art historian and author of Goddess, a book for children

written to accompany this exhibition. Dr Ramirez began by telling me what she means by the word goddess. It tends to get used nowadays, I suppose, to compliment a woman, to suggest that she's beautiful, strong. I start the book saying, oh, Beyonce is such a goddess. That's how we sort of throw it around. And I think if we think about goddesses of the past, from a Western perspective, we might think

of a nude Venus, maybe one of the Greek or Roman goddesses. But that is so far from the truth. And what I realised immediately when I started to branch out, because it was very much for both the exhibition and the book, the intent was global, that we wanted to reach out across the world. And my goodness, it became such a revelation researching this, because not only did I feel like I was travelling the world in my mind, I wrote it in lockdown. A lot of it was done in hotel rooms where I couldn't leave and I was just traveling around in my mind. But by looking through the lens of a single goddess, it tells you about religion, spiritual belief, but it also tells you about a country's history, its relationship with its landscape, its understanding of morality. And it becomes a lens through which to see so much more.

And so the title evolved into Spirit Saints and other female individuals who've influenced belief because that word goddess doesn't even transplant across other parts of the world. Absolutely. You know, when I was a kid, my mother had two goddesses in our Hindu shrine at home. And one was Lakshmi with her very pink pout sat on a lotus flower looking very gentle and then the other was a goddess called Durgama who sits on a tiger looking really stern and holding multiple weapons in her multiple arms and I had really mixed feelings and I was almost scared when I looked at her image. So when we talk about femininity in the West, it almost seems to align with gentleness or kindness or even just being passive.

But these goddesses and deities, they are often very fierce, aren't they? You could not be more right. And actually, it was learning about some of the Hindu deities and the contrasts that exist was an absolute revelation. I mean, Kali, if I had to pick one, is my absolute favourite. And it's exactly as you described. It's so interesting to hear you say that you found her scary at times

because she is scary. Let's be honest. She has this necklace of skulls, a skirt made out of arms, as you say, weapons. The tongue out. And the tongue out. And this is a fact I learned

when I was researching. The tongue of Kali is the tongue from the Rolling Stones imagery. Oh, I didn't know that. They borrowed it from the tongue of Kali. How interesting. But there's that rage, that passion, her relationship with her male counterpart, the stomping on his chest,

that pure unrestrained violence of Kali can seem really unsettling but it makes complete sense within the concept of Shakti the relationship between you know active and passive roles and and in in context it she's not scary she is time she is you know the destroyer of things and the creator of things and so the complexity of each of these goddesses individually is one thing but when you put them together like like the exhibition does and like the book does what it becomes is a real insight into what it is to be alive to be human it's not even for me about male or female or you know gender difference we are complex individuals

and the goddesses of the past were too and they represent that Belinda let me bring you in here because this is not just about goddesses you also look at other figures like the Virgin Mary and Eve, for example. Yes, that's right. So we called the title of the exhibition Feminine Power, the Divine Demonic, to introduce that spectrum because as Janina said, not all spiritual traditions conceive of spiritual power in divine terms. And the way that femininity is represented in spiritual thought goes much beyond that. So we have these figures that have this human element to them, like you said, like the Virgin Mary, like Eve, like Lilith, which I think says something very profound about how women themselves have been viewed in spiritual traditions. And one of the most interesting parts

for me, I found working on the exhibition was actually the narrative we have around the Virgin Mary which you know speaks to my upbringing I was raised C of E Mary didn't feature very prominently in my early religious education and so researching this project and learning about all the ways that Mary has been approached in different traditions around the world Abrahamic traditions in Christianity and in Islam but actually actually beyond that as well. She's a figure who really transcends spiritual boundaries. And she has sort of acquired all of these powers, you know, her apparitions, that she's the one who actually appears in front of you in times of need. And so I think what we see here by looking at these figures and including them in this discussion is that you don't have to be divine to be powerful. Mary is categorically not divine, but she is such an important spiritual force around the world today.

And the word today is really what I want to focus on because looking back and analysing them is all well and good, but what can we learn and what can we apply from what we understand about them in a modern context for the modern woman? Well, that's the big question, really. That's the question that we're really trying to ask in this exhibition. What does this mean today?

What can it mean today for individuals? And so as part of that, we've been working with five commentators that we've invited to come to the British Museum and explore these objects and ideas with us. And they have shared their own personal responses to the theme. So as you move through the different sections of the exhibition, you can hear the thoughts of these commentators. So you can hear what Bonnie Greer thinks about this.

You can hear what Mary Beard thinks about it. Elizabeth Day, Rabia Sadiq and Deborah Francis-White, they've shared their personal views. And you may agree with them, you may not agree with them, because a lot of this we are talking about belief and perception. And a lot of that is so personal. So we're really asking for us to reflect on that themselves. And then at the end, we have an interactive space where you can share your thoughts and leave them in the gallery as part of this conversation. It sounds fascinating and also very striking as well. And let me turn back to you, Yenina, because your book is also very striking.

It's beautifully illustrated. And interestingly, I mean, it appeals to me as an adult, but also the target age group is 9 to 12, I was reading, which is quite interesting because these are often complex and, like I said earlier sometimes scary characters I mean how do you make children comfortable with viewing and and learning about these that's what I mean it is the most beautiful book and Sarah Walsh's illustrations are just stunning breathtaking and and I mean yes 9 to 99 I think the readership for this because this is the first time with both

the exhibition and with my book that some of these individuals have been written about at all and had their stories taken from oral traditions, from different backgrounds. It has been an incredibly complex experience to research and put these things together because, you know, this is people's beliefs. I had to show the utmost respect. I am not entitled to take these people's stories and make them my own. I am purely curating and bringing to other people's attention so they can find out more about them themselves. And so sensitivity was huge in writing this book and research was huge. I read so many original texts that go back thousands of years.

But for me, the whole idea here is that children can read this. But I think people say children can't take these complex themes of course they can children are curious and if you give them the information they they will be able to understand it and comprehend it I've written this book and I've also written another book that's coming out in July called Feminar and they're both um taking this sort of this idea of human beings, as Belinda said, we're complex and we have personal beliefs, personal ways of getting across what matters to us, but we can find collective themes, collective approaches,

things that we can celebrate together. And I think with both of us, with the exhibition and with the books, we've tried to tread that careful line. We don't want to be the authority figures telling you what you should think when you see these images or when you research these goddesses. But we want to sort of open up the discussion really. Belinda Crera and Dr. Yanina Ramirez there. The exhibition at the British Museum is on until the 25th of September. That's all for today. Thanks for joining me. Emma will be back with you live at 10am on Monday. She'll be speaking to one of our listeners about her aunt's land girl suede jacket in the latest of our Threads series.

Have a lovely weekend. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.