Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Social media ban for under 16s, Family estrangement, Denise Gough

Episode Date: January 24, 2026

Should the UK follow Australia in bringing in a social media ban for under 16s? Nuala McGovern discusses the issue with Hannah Ortel from the Brianna Ghey Legacy Project, and Dr Fiona Scott, Senior Lecturer in digital literacies at the University of Sheffield.Double Olivier award-winning actress Denise Gough joins Anita Rani to talk about her latest role as Amy Fowler in a new play based on the famous western High Noon. She also discusses what it’s been like to find her singing voice for the first time in 30 years.Women dominate this week's BRIT Award nominations. Best Pop Act is an all women shortlist: RAYE, Lily Allen, Lola Young, Olivia Dean and JADE. Lola Young and Olivia Dean have the most nominations, both up for Artist of the Year, alongside Lily Allen, JADE, Little Simz and PinkPantheress. Nearly two thirds of the nominations feature women as solo artists or in mixed gender group - the highest representation yet. So why are women riding high in the music industry at the moment? Anita talks to Roisin O'Connor, Music Editor at The Independent.Brooklyn Peltz Beckham, the eldest son of the Beckhams, has said that he is not in touch with his family and does not want to reconcile with them. How do you know when you’ve reached the point when the right thing to do could be to walk away? Writer Eilidh Dorgan and Psychotherapist Dr Sara Young discuss.Eat the Rich (but maybe not me mates, x) is the acclaimed comedy show from Jade Franks. A sharp, funny take on class privilege, it follows Jade’s first term at Cambridge after swapping life in a Merseyside call centre for one of the UK’s most elite universities. After a smash-hit run at the Edinburgh Fringe, the show is now being developed for TV.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4, just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up, a subject that's been sparking headlines and debate this week, family estrangement. We discuss the issue. Actor Denise Goff on her West End production of High Noon, rediscovering her singing voice and speaking out about addiction. And the Brit nominations are out, we hear it. about the women dominating this year's list. Plus, writer, actor, director, Jade Franks

on her comedy about her transition from working in a call centre in Merseyside to studying at Cambridge University. But first, should the UK follow Australia in bringing in a social media ban for under 16s? It's something very much on people's minds at the moment. This week, the House of Lords back to move to ban under 16s in the UK

from social media platforms through an amendment to the government's school bill. The government has indicated it will try to overturn the amendment in the Commons, whilst it holds its own consultation on a potential ban. There is a divide about how successful a total ban would be. On Wednesday's program, ahead of that Lord's vote, Nula spoke to Dr Fiona Scott, senior lecturer in digital literacies at the University of Sheffield, who is skeptical about a ban. And Hannah Ortele, a supporter of the idea. She's from the Brianna-Jai Legacy Project, which was founded in memory of Brianna Jai, the 16-year-old who was murdered and whose mental health

was affected by harmful online content. Hannah is also the founder of Delay Smartphones, a charity working to protect children from their dangers. Why is she in favour of a ban? I think we're at a point where parents are completely on their knees. We know that in homes with teenagers' smartphones are the number one source of conflict. And having a ban like this, it really just gives parents that support when they're in homes. 13-year-olds are begging to go onto a particular platform to say, actually, no, there's a reason that the government has said that this is not safe for you. It's not fit for purpose for under-16-year-olds. And we regulate so many things like, you know, alcohol, gambling, driving, when we know that it's not

safe for children, and I don't see this is any different. Let me bring in Dr Fiona Scott here. What about some of those points that Hannah makes? I think I want to start by saying that, I think we are all on the same page here in terms of really wanting to support children and young people. My concern is that a ban sounds very promising, but there are lots of problems associated with it. And my concern is that bringing in or suggesting we're going to bring in a full ban is not going to be effective as a long-term solution and kind of gives people a false sense of security when actually children could be even more vulnerable because we know that a lot of children and young people will still access social media and do so in a way that is sort of underground. How do you expect that could potentially play out?

We know that there are lots of mechanisms already for controlling with age and that some of the different opportunities, you know, people have tried financial means so you can only sign up to a certain service with a credit card. There is a lot of experimentation in terms of facial recognition and there are also other strategies to do with signing up with a parent's email. We know that a lot of these things can be navigated around using a virtual private network. It's the same technology that lots of us use to work from home or access systems in countries that we need to work with. So there are lots of ways and it's really complicated because some of these technologies as well, you know, like the facial recognition technologies are also things that people have real worries about in terms of their own privacy as adults.

So I think there are real risks there. I saw a figure recently that in Australia where this ban is already coming into. into effect, almost half of parents said that they plan to help their children and young people circumvent. I mean, that's an interesting point. I'll pick up on that one first, Hannah, perhaps with you. When parents, and there's always a divergence of opinion, you're never going to have a monolith of parents on the same page about an issue. If all parents aren't on board about a social media ban, perhaps it can't really work. Yeah, so I think that what Fiona was just saying about them being able to get to darker places on the web,

still being able to access social media. Of course, you know, the dark web existed before it's going to exist, you know, whether this ban goes ahead or not. But we know laws like this still reduce the overall exposure. And just because something's difficult doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. You know, we still have, you know, a ban on people drinking under the age of 18, even if that's difficult to enforce. So I think that, you know, putting in place something like this,

it really does just set the message to parents that it's not. not appropriate for your children to be on a platform younger than this age. In any other arena, whether it was a food product, whether it was clothing, toys, you know, when a product is not fit for purpose and it's not safe for children, it would be withdrawn. And we have asked social media companies over and over again to make these products safe for our children. They haven't been able to do that. And that's why they need to now be removed. But you bring up a really important point there, Hannah, which one of my listeners has just got in touch about. That is Heather, who says, I'd rather that social media companies were held to account than a blanket ban for an age group.

What happens then at 16? A free-for-all? I'd like to see people taught how to use it responsibly. And, of course, bringing social media companies into that. Let me throw that back to you, Fiona. Should that be the way forward? Yes, absolutely. So my argument isn't that this was desirable but hard. It is that I think we do need to go further. I think saying that we're going to ban something is just something that we say. And there's already evidence in Australia that I think I've read something that's only one in eight of accounts belonging to children and young people have currently been successfully prevented at the moment.

Your thoughts, Hannah, about the ban shouldn't be for under 16s, but it should be for social media companies to get their houses in order. We need everyone working together on this. So we need the Online Safety Act to be a. a lot stronger. We need more regulation so that places like the dark web, you know, don't exist at all. Social media should be safer for everyone. There should be less addictive algorithms. There should be less harmful content for whether you're an adult or a child on these platforms. But I think that, yeah, where we are right now, you know, we are in a huge mental health crisis, you know, for young people.

We know that even if you removed all the harmful content, it's still the most addictive platforms that have ever been created. And so children are now. rather than living in the real world, they're watching other people live in the real world. They're not having that childhood. In just over a decade, we've gone from that play-based childhood to phone-based childhood.

And so we owe it as a society to our children to protect them from this harm. And at the moment, they are just not having that opportunity to live in the real world. And I'd be curious for the parents out there or those that are taking care of children. What happens if you take the phone off them,

If you kind of impose the ban yourself, I'd be curious. Of course, a lot of you getting in touch. Here's one comment. If you're a gay or trans teenager and your family isn't supportive, perhaps you live in a rural area or a small town, social media is the only way you'll get access to the community and support that can be life-saving. What about that, Hannah?

Yeah, so I just think that isn't factually true. So Esther Gai's daughter, Brianna, who was murdered, was a trans child. and Esther has explicitly explained that she was a very vulnerable trans child and actually she was driven to spending all her time on her phone in her bedroom alone and was rejecting her real life friendships, people who she loved who wanted to support her in the real world. And so I think that the argument that people who are vulnerable, you know, this is the only place where they can go to safety. Actually, they're the most at risk. They're the most vulnerable to harm.

And I know with Brianna, you know, she was served so much dangerous content, self-harm content, eating disorder content. And so actually, and many people from the trans community have got in touch with Esther to say how much they do support the ban. Yeah. And of course there will be differing opinions within the various communities as well. But I understand, Hannah, you're putting that a point across from Esther Jai as well. Fiona, what about that, though? You know, whether it's really a place for connection and community. for those that needed or, as Hannah has put across,

what was the case with Brianna? Yeah. There are always going to be different opinions here. And the reality is that's because it is a really mixed picture. I mean, this is my bread and butter. This is where I do research, you know, all the time with children and young people. And they themselves are aware that it's a really nuanced picture. So some children and young people seeking connection and social connection community online

And it is really important. And I know that you might say, it would be better if they were seeking that in real life. I don't think it's always a helpful distinction to make. Because as we know in our own... You mean between digital and real life? Yes. It's the same?

It's not the same, but the digital is part of real life. And actually, for children and young people who perhaps are in conflict with their parents about their sort of sexual identity, or are perhaps grappling with mental health issues that they don't feel supported by their families or able to talk to families and friends, it is another way of seeking access.

I'm not saying it is better or worse, but that there are positives. I think it's important to come back on that binary as well in terms of play. Children are not playing anymore and that they are only living this digital life. Again, it's really complicated when you try to define what social media is.

I have done a lot of research about children and young people playing video games, digital games. and for a lot of them, actually being able to connect with friends online through their play is a really important way that they connect, particularly perhaps because they don't live close enough to actually physically play with friends. You know, we don't have that culture of playing out on the street because people have other safety concerns now. So I'm not saying either way is right or wrong, but we need to move away from this kind of binary understanding of children's digital lives. Lots of messages coming in. Let me see.

Unfortunately, this generation of under 16s have effectively been experimented on. It will be hard to change their usage as they already have established accounts which they likely used a false age to attain. The ban would give hope to those younger children who are yet to set up accounts. The ban would be a proactive step forwards,

changing things for future generations. So says Amy. There was another here. Parents should ban screens behind closed doors. This would at least stop children and sending compromising photographs of themselves. Until he was 18, I insisted my son left his mobile in the living room when he went to bed.

Yes, he complained, but our relationship survived. Let me turn back to you, Hannah, when we talk about this. There's another, is there any parent in the UK that doesn't think a ban on social media isn't a good idea? I doubt it. We're losing the ability to communicate by using our brains, expression and our emotions. Being able to socialise, look up and see nature,

feel the calm in life as part of being human. We can't relearn these things once we are adults. But back to Fiona's point, for many people, there is no line. It's not even a blurry one between real life, I put that in inverted commas, and digital life, Hannah. So we are embodied beings. You know, we are supposed to live through our body. And so just being on a screen, we know that the average amount of time that teens are spending on their phones now is 17 hours a week. So this is going to be, I'm sorry, 17 years of their life, 35 hours a week of what they're spending on their phones.

And so, yes, a bit of video gameplay can be really healthy, can be really fun for kids. But the problem is, is that these platforms are designed to be addictive. They want to keep engagement at any cost. They want them on no matter what. And so we are supposed to live through our bodies. We are supposed to, you know, use all of our senses. And the screen doesn't allow us to do that. And so as families, we're seeing more disconnected.

than ever, you know, parents are also, you know, modelling behaviour. As adults, we're so addicted to our phones and social media. So for children who are brought up on this, they have absolutely no chance. And so even if a few children may benefit, we're not going to just keep it when everyone else is being harmed. Hannah Ortell and Dr Fiona Scott talking to Noola there. Now, Denise Goff is a double Olivier Award winner. Her theatre performances have been described as mesmeric, extraordinary and awe-inspiring.

And that's before we get. to her performance of the villainous Dedra Miro in the Star Wars spin-off, or her latest role as Amy Fowler in one of the most famous westerns of them all High Noon. This new play of High Noon is based on the 1952 Oscar-winning film. When we first meet Amy, she's getting married to Will Kane, the Marshal of the Town. As Amy is a Quaker and against violence, he gives up his badge to go away and start a new life with her. However, only moments after they marry, we hear that Frank Miller, who will be able, Will put behind bars and was due to hang has been released and is going to arrive on the noon train seeking his revenge.

Here's a clip from the play when Will realises that he has to stay and face his nemesis. And Amy is shocked by his reaction. The brilliant Billy crud up there as Will Kane and Denise Goff as Amy Fowler. I started by asking Denise how she approached playing the role of Amy. Well, in the film it was Grace Kelly and she was very, very young. like 22 so it was obviously I'm not that but it was very important to me that she it's just as important to be somebody who's an advocate for non-violence as it is to be somebody who has to you know do what he feels that he has to do so I felt like I had a responsibility

not to make her just a whining wife it's very important to her she has reasons why she doesn't believe in violence. And at that time, if you think about a woman in her position to decide to be a Quaker in a mostly, I think, Christian evangelical time, that's quite a brave act. And I see her as a woman at the beginning of feminism also. She's constantly questioning throughout the play. Why does she have to give up everything she believes in in order to stand by her man? She loves Will, but she loves the community of man just as much. And I find that really interesting. about her. There's some really good, big, debatable themes in this, and I did get into a debate about it afterwards. It's a story about love, courage, cowardice, and it's asking big questions

about who will stand up when you need people to stand up with you and who won't and their choices for doing that. Themes that still resonate today. Yeah, totally. And also what you are prepared to do for the ones you love. And I think something that was really interesting for me was the idea of having to take up arms for the people you love and being forced in. into situations because as the play goes on, you see that happening. I mean, we're seeing it all over the world right now. What are we prepared to do for our communities? What is community?

When the chips are down, are you part of a community? I'm finding certainly for myself, I mean, the theatre is my number one community, but I feel finding community at the moment in a world that seems very fractured is deeply important. And so I think for me, what Amy is trying to do is create a community, but unfortunately, somebody comes in to threaten that. And, yeah, she's forced to do something else. Oh, yeah, but you'll have to go and see it to find out. Also, what I really liked about her and respect about her is the great level of integrity this woman has. And I particularly enjoyed the scene and the relationship she has with the other female.

character Helen Ramirez. It just seems so adult that these two women, Helen Ramirez is she runs the bar, another woman, she's Mexican and she was originally Will's lover. And it's the relationship between the two women is really

interesting. Yeah, and it's complex and it should be. I mean, there's a version where it becomes like girl power and you see these two women become best friends and I thought that was really important to me that that didn't happen. And also, I feel like there's a question too about what it is to be a woman of color in that environment

and what Helen has had to go through and withstand is different than what Amy has to go through and withstand. And so you have two women coming at the world from two very different places. And for Amy, it's very easy for Amy to, you know, it's really obvious that Helen thinks the most important thing is you stand by your man. Amy finds that really frustrating to be told that by another woman.

But then she understands by the end of that scene, why Helen would say that to her and encourage her to do that. But I feel it's one of those great things of having two women from two very different worlds existing together on stage without making it into something simplistic. The other thing that absolutely delighted me about this is that you sing and you sing Bruce Springsteen and you have got a magnificent voice. Thank you very much. I've never sung on stage.

So it was really exposing and frightening for me. And I come from a background where from the age of eight to 19, I trained to be a soprano, an opera. Soprano and I hated it because if you don't hit the note, you failed. And that's such a difficult thing for me to have a. From the age of eight? Yeah, in Ireland, in the west of Ireland, you go to singing classes, you know. I had a singing teacher, and once a week I would go,

and I, you know, had my little clasped hands. So could that have been a different career path for you? I doubt it. I really hated it, and I started smoking very young. So it ended. And I didn't like how I felt when I sang. So what was it like having to sing, or singing every night on stage?

Well, we did a workshop of the play months before we actually started doing the play, and it started with just singing one line. and then the MD said maybe you can sing another line. And then once we were in rehearsals, like three weeks in, Theo was like, maybe you can sing a song at the beginning. It was like, okay, and I kept opening myself up and saying yes to it because it has been incredibly good for my mental health,

for my feelings about my voice, all of that. It's been very healing for me to sing, actually. Yeah, and it was beautiful to hear you sing. And yeah, more. Please give us more. And singing Bruce Springfield. I'm really singing an album. Yes, good.

Things that, you know, it's been healing. And, you know, I feel like whenever I've seen, I've been very lucky. I saw you when you revisited your Olivier Award winning play, people, places and things. And again, I could, I just, the experience of watching you in that is unbelievable. It's about a woman in rehab, battling addiction. And you've spoken about your own dependence on alcohol and drugs quite openly. But what happened? And what was it like revisiting it?

So the first time I did the play, I didn't tell anyone. Even when I auditioned for it, I didn't tell people. I was in recovery by that point, but I didn't tell anyone. I didn't want to sell my story to get a part. And also I hadn't done enough of the deep work to be able to handle speaking about it openly, especially like this, you know. But the second time when I revisited a couple of years ago, I've done a lot of work on this.

I don't think that you have to speak about your experience, but I do think that if you do speak about your experience to make sure you've got a lot of support. And somebody once said to me, you share from the wisdom, not the wound. And I think the first time around, I would have, if I had been open about it, I would have been sharing from the wound,

which would have made me very vulnerable. Yeah. But the last time I, I mean, I'm nearly... What changed? Well, I'm nearly... 19 years sober. Well done. Thank you. But also, I think there's a lot of shame around addiction.

And it's not helpful from me to feel shame about it. So it was part of owning my story, you know. When you get interviewed the way that I do a lot and you're trying to obfuscate, that gets really tiring, you know? You just want to go, oh, okay, look, this is what happened in my life. and this, like telling your own story is very empowering as long as, like I said, you're doing it from a place of having done some healing. But it was important for me to reclaim my life, you know?

What's it like once you've said it once it's out there? It's so much easier because now I can talk about it. And also, I think if I, when I was in my addiction and in the darkness, if I had heard someone sharing about it, then it gives maybe some, I'm loathe to use the word hope, but, you know, faith that things can be different. Yeah. No, I think it does.

It does. I mean, it's hard work. It's hard work to overcome, as anyone will tell you, to overcome addiction. But for me, it was very, with all the work I've done, I understand deeply that my addiction was a solution for a while. You know, I'm very grateful. A solution to what? Well, I think when you have,

lived how I've lived and had the life that I had when I was young. When I first came to London, you know, it was not an easy time. You were incredibly young as well, weren't you? I had just turned 16, so I'd run away from home when I was 15, and then I was 16 when I got here. And by that point, I was deep into it. And so it always becomes the headline of a story of talking about my homeless. It can feel a bit ick, but I, but my, my story is that, you know, I used to beg in the street and pick up cigarette butts and that was how I lived. And if I had had to do that clean and sober, I don't know if I'd have been very safe. I mean, being drunk and high kind of numbed me enough. It wasn't that I thought everything was great. It was just I didn't, I didn't feel.

the darkness until I was able to. And, you know, there's a brilliant doctor, Gabor Mattoe, who says he never asks why the addiction, he asks why the pain, you know, and I would, yeah, I would agree with that. Why did you run away from home? So my early years, I was in a convent school, Catholic school,

and I'd had a pretty grim time with a couple of nuns there. and then when I was very, very young, from the age of 13 to 14, I was groomed, which resulted then in sexual abuse. And that sort of thing, I mean, there was nothing anybody could do because I didn't know what it was. Grooming is so toxic. It really confuses and breaks the child's ability to know. who to trust and most importantly if they can trust themselves and so i believed deeply that all of

that was me was my fault and and i grew up in a deeply catholic environment and so i learned things there too and um and so i wasn't able to ask for help i didn't know how because i thought i was the problem and so the only thing i could do was run it felt like and so that's what i did And fend for yourself and, you know, have all the addiction issues that you've spoken about. And then you've also said that acting saved your life. So when did the gift of acting? I think that that happened in a school play. I was in Annie when I was like 10 or something.

And of course I wanted to play Annie, but I didn't get that part. I got the part of Miss Hannigan. But you're over at course. I'm so over it. I got the part of Miss Hannigan, which was fitting. and I remember I brought a cigarette onto the stage and I had a little bottle of vodka. Not real, obviously.

But I remember going onto the stage and all the little kids, I mean I was a little kid, but I remember looking at the little kids in the orphanage and suddenly they all forgot what they had to say. And so I just started talking. In character, I made up. And I remember the feeling in the room and it felt really good.

And but later on what happened, I mean, there was still no way to be an actress. Nobody was an actress that I knew or I had no connection to it. I didn't know what drama school was or anything. But then when I was in London early, I would walk up and down Shaftesbury Avenue. And so that's where I would ask. I didn't ever sit down and ask people for money. But I would approach people and ask them for money. And I would pick up the cigarette butts.

And I would stand outside theaters and think, how do I get? get in there. How do I get in there? And I remember when I was a year sober walking down Chatsbury Avenue and looking up and there was a poster of me outside the theatre. What does that feel like? I remember my friend Nomademuswaini who was in the show to she saw it happen. I sort of collapsed. I had like a physical reaction to seeing that because it was like I could also see the little bald girl because I always shaved my head. Sheneid O'Connor was a huge North Star for me because I remember her talking about abuse on TV. I remember her being gaslighted.

I remember her power. And so the first thing I did was shave my head and it kept me safe, I believe. And I remember looking at the poster of me and then just having this connection to that little girl. And it's only when you get much older that you realize what a little girl you were. Like I had no idea. I was, I thought I knew everything. I was a baby. I meet 16 year olds now and I think, oh my God. What was I doing? And and yeah, I had so many kind of magic moments happened to get me. I got a full scholarship to drama school and

all these miracles. And and then as soon as I was able to, like it was four years into my career that I got sober and that's when things really started getting juicy. Yeah. And we love watching you in everything. We haven't even been, I'm just going to mention them because you're also in H's for Hawke with Claire Foy. And you're in Andor, which is, yeah, I'm so proud of that. Thank you for sharing so openly and honestly, I really appreciate that. It's important. It's not my shame. I shouldn't have to keep secrets. Denise Goff there and High Noon is on at the Harold Pinter Theatre in London until the 6th of March and H's for Hawke is in cinemas now. And if you've been affected by any of the issues raised in that conversation. There are links of support on the BBC

Action Line website. The Brit Award nominations are out and we're going to talk about some of the many, many women being recognised. Here's a flavour. The nominees for Best Pop Act, all of whom are women, Ray, Lily Allen, Lola Young, Olivia Dean and Jade. Yes, female singer-songwriters are dominating the list with Lola Young and Olivia Dean having the most nominations. They're also up for Artists of the Year alongside Lily Allen, Jade Little Sims and Pink Pantherous. Nearly two-thirds of the nominations feature women as solo artists or in mixed gender groups, the highest representation yet. So why are women riding high in the music industry at the moment?

Well, I spoke to Rocheon O'Connor, music editor at The Independent. We just have an absolute glut of amazing pop music, rap, rock, everything across the board, but also I think the industry is finally maybe woken up a little bit and seen what's been right in front of them for quite a long time now. What I'm very happy about is I'm sure we have spoken about the exact opposite when it's been no women and we've had that conversation. Yeah, like I think 2023 there were no women nominated at the Brits for artists of the year. I think a year after they scrapped the gender categories, which is a bit unfortunate.

But, I mean, previously representation has been patchy across the board. I think they've gone to real lengths to address that over the years by changing up the voting board, bringing in better representation from the actual judges who decided to the nominations. I think that's great. But also I think just, you know, we're experiencing such an amazing time in music right now. There's such a glut, again, across the board.

And also how the landscape has changed. You know, I think for years, like women were sold the lie that there could only be one person on top at any one time. And it's obviously, inserts where we're here, like I'm not allowed to say on this show, but it's not true. And I think now we're seeing you can have an Olivia Rodrigo,

but you can also have a Charlie X, X, X, X, a Chapel Row, and a Sabrina Carpenter, a Lily Allen, a Dochi and Olivia Dean. And it's just really exciting. And a lot of them can be on stage at Glastonbury as well. Why are confessional female voices like Lily Allen so commercially attractive right now? What's happening? There's probably some kind of psychological reason you can dig into. I mean, for me, it's kind of like the messy, horrible world we live in at the moment.

We are, I think, often trying to make sense of things. And art is one of the main ways we can do that. I think hearing someone who has clearly found clarity after going through something, you know, if it's a positive or a negative experience and finding a way to convey that to their listeners and you don't have to have gone through what they've gone through to feel like you can relate in some way.

Like they're so emotional and, you know, I think Lily Allen especially West End Girls struck a chord with so many people and not everyone has been through what she's singing about, but it's the emotion and the frankness and the candidness in her songwriting that relates to people. Yeah. Also, big story. in the past few years about female artists who have, you know, fought their own labels,

famously Ray and Taylor Swift, they had disputes with them. How is that relationship changing? I think, well, autonomy is, you know, a huge just debate in the music industry at the moment. I think it's inspiring to see people like Ray and Taylor Swift who have fought for years, I think, to just basically just have the right, you know, to be in control of their own careers. And also just, I think the industry really has needed to wait. up and realize that, you know, they're artists for a reason, like they're, you know, they're the geniuses, they know what they're talking about and, you know, and they should have the right to have

control over where their career is going. And I think if you try, as the industry has, for, you know, in many instances, to mold an artist and make them like someone else that is, you know, successful in another field or something, it doesn't work because people love characters in music. They love personality. And, you know, Ray is an amazing personality. Lolly Young, Lily Allen, Olivia Dean, you know, like they have so much charisma and that stands out and that's exactly why they appeal to fans. Yeah.

There seems like because it's not just one and they are sort of speaking up about what they believe in, what's true of their experience, they don't seem to be afraid, there seems to be great power in that. And maybe that sort of power is kind of filtering through to other female artists. I mean, is that, do you feel that's happening? yeah absolutely i mean i had zara larsen on this podcast i do good vibrations recently and

she was i mean she's another one like i think this idea of um i mean development is another really important thing i think um that i've noticed over the last few years is labels and teams actually willing to stick with an artist and see them develop over a period of time pop styles don't happen overnight it takes a long time for someone like sabrina carpenter six albums in before she blew up she's been in the entertainment industry for 20 years you know it's not an overnight And Zara, I think, she's experiencing that right now. She's having this incredible renaissance. She's, you know, she supported Addison Ray on her last tour.

And now she's headlining and just having this huge moment. And she said the messages she gets from other pop stars, you know, DMing her kind of saying, I want to come to your show. It's so inspiring. And I think, yeah, really women, they've known this for a long time, but I think there's a concerted effort now to not let a misogynist music industry kind of try and push them down and put them against each other. And it's really, really good to see.

I mean, is this a genuine, okay, let's just try and think of it from the other side. Is it a genuine shift in power about, and is it about authorship of women or is it simply a new phase? And the industry has learned how to monetise it. I mean, I think it's both. I mean, the industry at the end of the day is a business. Like if they see something that's making money, they're obviously going to try and get in on that. You know, I think you need to have that cynicism there. But also it's kind of like, okay, fair.

Like they need to, it's a business. So, yeah, there is that. but it's also kind of funny in a way that it's taken them this long to realize, like, the massive resources. I mean, the thing is that always makes me laugh is that if you go back all the way to Beatlemania, like, their biggest fan base was girls and women. That's probably like the blueprint for the ultimate music pop fandom. So I don't really know why it's taking this song for the industry to cotton on, like, oh, maybe, you know, women and girls. Buy music too.

Yeah, and like, maybe buy more music than anyone else. That was Roshino, Connor, music editor at the Independent. Still to come on the program, Jade Franks, on her semi-autobiographical comedy. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week. All you need to do is subscribe to the Daily Podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Now, you may have heard in a series of Instagram stories, Brooklyn Peltz Beckham addressed his 16.5 million followers directly, saying, I do not want to reconcile with my family. I'm not to be controlled. I'm standing up for myself for the first time in my life.

He went on to address a number of tabloid stories, including his account of why his wife didn't wear a Victoria Beckham dress at their wedding. And he said that in his family, Brand Beckham comes first. His parents have not directly commented on the post, but speaking generally about social media on Tuesday at the World Economic Forum, David Beckham said children are allowed to make mistakes. Now, of course, we don't all grow up in the spotlight. We don't all live our family lives on social media,

but most of us do have moments when we question whether our relationships with our family are good for us. Maybe you have. And how do you know when you've reached the point when the right thing to do could be to walk away? Well, Nula spoke to Dr. Sarah Young, who's a psychotherapist, who's worked with people experiencing family estrangement, and writer Eile Dorgan, who has experienced something similar and is questioning whether stepping away is always the healthiest option. I mean, I think over the past maybe 15 years, I've kind of gone back and forth and I would spend a few months at a time when I'd maybe stop talking to my mom and things would kind of reset because there was maybe the threat that I'd, you know, not speak to her again. And then I kind of, I stepped away almost two years ago. And I think that what was really helpful was I had my own family, my husband. And so kind of having that support network and that strength. And at the time, you know, I really thought this is.

is just until one of us dies. Like I'm just, you know, I've closed the door. But I think that over the past maybe six months or so, I think, you know, I have children and I question whether, you know, what's best for them and should they have a grandmother in their life? Because it's the only one that they would have. And I think that she has the potential to be a good grandmother. And I think there's space there potentially to enable that relationship.

And then kind of within that, I've begun to think about whether it's possible for us to have a relationship and not in like a normal way, not in a way that most people would have with them others, but in a way where there's boundaries. And I think that ultimately what I've realized is that you don't have any control over other people. But if you can kind of change your own outlook or have more empathy or I didn't know. I mean, it's a huge ask and not most people can do it. And I just thought the way you framed it was really interesting, Eile. It's is parental estrangement always the healthiest option?

Question mark. And your short answer is it's complicated as you described to us. Sarah, let me bring you in here. Could it be the healthiest option? In certain situations it can be. Over the years that I've worked with young people and adults like Eiley, it's very complex. and it's not as easy to just step away. Certainly when you have a family like I was saying,

it brings in a different dynamic and then you can be drawn back into those relationships. It often depends on what the parent is like and what they're presenting issues are for the child. Indeed. Let me read a couple of the comments that are coming in and of course, Ili, we haven't got your mother to tell her side of this story. And we do know, I mean, I definitely felt it reading, about Brooklyn Pell's Beckham as well,

that no matter what the opinions are, it's obviously a very sad situation for any family that goes through it, as my listeners are telling me. Here's one. I've been estranged from my mother for a number of years. It's tough because the world has an idea of what mothers should be,

and she is not like that at all. I do get judged for cutting her out of my life. It's also made aspects of my relationships with other family members hard. However, I am truly happy for the first time in my life. It's strange that we expect people to continue with family relationships when we would not tolerate those behaviours

from other people that we are not related to. Sarah? Yes, perfectly put. I couldn't have put it better myself. It's often the expectation of others. And I think even for Brooklyn, going through, going public, he's still going to go through a grieving process.

He's still going to grieve the loss of what he or the family that he wanted or the family that he had, you know, there's so much complexity to it. And like I said, you need a good support network around you. That would be the advice is get the support you need to help you through it. If you are going to step away? Yes, definitely.

I mean, yeah, certainly. I might go back a couple of steps and I'll bring in another listener here as well who says, I can only admire Brooklyn Pelsbeckham for stepping away from his family. I've had a similar situation with my mother and father for most of my life and I'm constantly thinking it will get better. Unfortunately, I'm always wrong and it causes me, my sister and our children enormous anxiety. I'm now 62 and I still feel like a child with controlling

parents who are never happy and always have to blame someone else. Thank you for covering this. If somebody is at this point because I think Eiley was outlining that it's constantly evolving as well the way you feel or the way the relationship might be, if you are at that point like the listener who gets in touch with us, is there advice to anyone that you can give who might be at that

point before they break completely away, is there any other ways to mitigate the situation? I think the person, you know on some level if this relationship is destructive, you may not openly acknowledge it, but you'll know, you'll have a felt sense of somebody who's very controlling of you. Often, the relationships are quite where the parent or the sibling, like the lady said, and be narcissistic or, you know, have elements of some challenges themselves that are then projected onto the child or the young person or adults. So I think beforehand, I would certainly explore therapy and get a really good therapist to have that conversation with to support you to make decisions like that.

And getting the person who you're having the issues with into therapy with you? No. No. I wouldn't if that person, no, because if you've got a hypothetical, narcissistic mother, then goes into a therapy room with the child, that's a really negative dynamic. That child or young person or adult, young adult or 60 year old needs to have that space to be able to work through what they need to work through. It's not to say that the parent can't come in or isn't able to come in at some point. But when somebody's in therapy, it's the other person like Eiley said they don't change

so it's about knowing what you need to do I think two words are coming up to me as I speak to you and Eiley I'd like to bring you into this as well there's kind of controlling is one that I'm hearing from the listeners as well

the other is acceptance and I felt Eiley reading your piece that you're trying to see can you meet them where they are or is there a level of acceptance that you might be able to, I suppose, embody. Would that be fair? Yeah. And I think, you know, it's kind of easy for me to say this right now because I haven't spoken to her for two years and it's just something I'm mulling over in my own head. So the practice of it is going to be much more difficult than the theoretical

idea of it. And I think one of the most difficult things is grieving the fact that, you know, I think that you keep kind of holding onto the strand of hope that you're going to have a relationship that you hope to have. And I think part of it is really letting that go before you explore a different relationship. And that's really hard, I think. How much headspace does it take up for you? I mean, recently because I've been writing about it more,

but it doesn't really take up that much headspace, I have to say. Another message. After years of trying to have a good, healthy relationship with my mum, I decided to cook contact eight years ago. Unfortunately, she had a very destructive and toxic personality, and it was badly affecting my mental health. I miss having a mum, but I don't miss her as a person, sadly. Sarah, can I come back to you on the word controlling?

Because that's come up, I feel, so many times, whether it's from Brooklyn's Post or indeed the ways listeners are getting in touch with me. Yeah, and that controlling parent dynamic to child, whether you're 60, you know, whatever the age, dynamic, it's still a parent to child. And when you have a controlling parent, it doesn't matter whether you're living with them, or living in a different country,

they can still sometimes have an impact on you and boundaries are essential, but also our clients that I've worked with in the past, I'll often say to them, why would you go back to the person to help you heal when they're the person that caused the harm? So it's very hard with that mother dynamic, especially with that attachment,

to stay away because you always, or there's often that holding on to hope that it'll change, Something will be different. If I bring my children, have they got the potential to be a good grandma? But to hold that boundary to keep yourself safe. Often, if a parent is all about themselves, children can shine a light and they'll reflect and get what they need

as soon as the child says no, then it can change. Back to you, Ali, just to get your final thought. I suppose how does it feel? the moment to speak about this? I mean, I think it's, it's been interesting because there is kind of such an appetite for it, because I think it is something that millennials are kind of doing more of. I think for me, what's been kind of therapeutic is writing about it, but then also in some of my articles I've written, I've spoken to therapists, and you're kind of getting multiple different opinions from different therapists, and that's been kind of helpful to reframe it for me. So it's been kind of,

kind of an interesting opportunity to not only have a catharsis in writing about it, but also speak to experts about it and get some kind of expert opinion. Ely Dorgan and Dr Sarah Young, speaking with Noola there on Wednesday's program. Now, eat the rich, but maybe not my mates, kiss. Is the hit comedy stage show from Jade Franks at the Soho Theatre, London. Semi-autobiographical, it's a sharp, funny take on class privilege. It follows Jade's first term at Cambridge University, after swapping life in a Merseyside call centre

for one of the UK's most elite universities from where she graduated in 2021. After wowing audiences at the Edinburgh fringe, Netflix is interested. Well, Nula started by asking her about the title of the show. I think what I'm trying to say with that is, like you can have your politics, you can be where you're from, you can have big slogans like,

eat the rich, but there's always new wants to it. Not every rich person is going to be inherently evil. Everyone's kind of a victim of their own. upbringing and so the book maybe not my mate's bit is kind of a nod towards the friends that I made along the way and the friends I still have now. So you were in a call centre beforehand as we mentioned. What was that transition like getting into the hollowed halls of Cambridge? So originally I took a few years out after school because I was applying for drama schools

and I did get into a few but then I couldn't afford to go and so that kind of sparked in me this feeling of like why is this system so unfair why is it that some people are allowed to go and pursue their passions and it felt like I wasn't able to and so I was then looking into like education policy and I was reading loads of different books about

like the arts and who is allowed to afford to be in theatres and that kind of stuff and so I saw the course education and theatre at Cambridge and I got in touch with an outreach coordinator who kind of looked at my context looked at the school that I went to

and invited me to come to Cambridge because I've never been before. And he basically held my hand and supported me through the process. This wasn't part of the play, but it's part of the actual story. And then he ended up being my director of studies for three years and properly supported me.

And so there are people at Cambridge who are doing a brilliant job in getting people in and making sure they stay because I definitely would have dropped out if it wasn't for him because it was quite a stressful time as the play kind of talks about. Yeah, it's intense and it's rapid fire

and it's very funny and there are grenades being thrown left and right. You say I'm not watering down the fury, just sneaking it through the back door. What do you want people to know you are angry about? I guess what I've just talked about, like the fact that some people are able to pursue their dreams and some people just aren't. And you can talk about meritocracy, you can talk about like you can work this hard and then you'll get this at the end of it, but it's just not the case. like people are born into circumstances with people,

parents with connections or, you know, family who know people in certain industries or whatever it is. Or if you go to private school, you're taught certain ways of like interview technique and all this kind of stuff. Or learning or how to do exams or what it might be. Yeah. But I think what is also very stark, and we might be somewhat familiar with that academically or on paper.

But I think what really is really, brings it to life are things where you see that culture clash for example in somewhere like going out or out out. Exactly yeah and I think that's drawing on the idea that class isn't just about how much is in your bank account

it's about how you were brought up culturally whether that's like when you're in the club you buy everyone around and everyone does rounds and that was something that at Cambridge I was like wait I've just bought everyone a bevy and no one's buying me one back but you don't say it it's just meant like that was just how I was brought up and and how I knew like the, I don't know, the unspoken rules of going out.

And there are the aspects of observation that I think are so clear. Another one that struck me was you had a screen protector bag for your laptop that you put in, while the other students were just throwing it into the tote bag loose because it wasn't as valuable, I suppose, an item for them. Exactly. And I think what's interesting is like as time's gone on, there has been times where I've put my MacBook in my bag without a case. And it's, yeah, it's also an observation of like how much you change when you're around.

Well, that's what I was really interesting as well, because we see you dressed up. You got the lashes, you got the heels, you got the hair, you're going out. You mentioned that the other girls, for example, were shopping, that were wealthy, that were shopping from charity shops instead of going super glam, shall we say. but that you have now transitioned in some ways perhaps to shop in a charity shop, for example, in that way to maybe change your aesthetic. Yeah, I think fashion's changed as they do

and people change when they go to university. But I think the show is also like a love letter to my younger self in the sense that like I really enjoyed that culture of getting dressed up and wearing heels that were ridiculously too big and going out in Concord Square in Liverpool. and that fashion and that lifestyle isn't obviously going to last forever. You grow out of it.

Some do. Yeah, some do. I mean, I do love dressing up when I go back in, to be fair. But I think it was interesting as well because in the show, you tell the story of your sister. So that part of your life coming to Cambridge with hilarious and heartbreaking results in equal measure. How was that for you?

It was heartbreaking and that's one of the stories in the show that is 100% true. So she basically came in. She was dressed up proper glam, makeup done, hair done, and she was wearing like an off-the-shoulder blouse. And one of the professors at my college was not happy with how she was dressed. I think it was just because she looked really glam and kind of stood out a bit.

But he said it was because her shoulders were out. That it was inappropriate. For a formal dinner. Yeah, for one of these formal dinners where everyone's wearing a gown. And so he put a PhD gown over her to cover her up, which is humiliating, right? He doesn't know what her education is.

he doesn't know how that feels as a person who doesn't have a PhD to be covered up with a PhD gown. It's those things. To be covered up? And to be covered up full stop as a woman. Like I think it was also incredibly sexist. And like... But your sister seemed to take it with a pinch of salt.

I mean, she was fuming. In the play, she took it with a pinch of salt. Oh, okay. Was she? Okay. She was more just like embarrassed. Like they'd made a mockery of her. And she was really upset. And it was a birthday as well.

Yes, yeah. But I think it does bring it into stark relief, this kind of clash of cultures. Was it difficult when you went back home to transition back into life in Merseyside, for example? Yeah, a little bit. I think that I, I mean, before I went, my dad was like, if you come back with an accent.

And I was like, with an accent. So that was something I was thinking about, like how I was speaking, how I was dressing. like it was that thing of like code switching and and then having like even the humor and the comedy that I was around like the bits that people do in that university like set in isn't the kind of humor of my mates from home and so it was also like having this like different language you know what I really wanted to know when I was watching it last night what those that came from a different background to yourself that were at Cambridge what they thought when they watched it

I don't know. There's some people that have come to see the show and I'm like, why are you here? Like with respect, thank you to buying a ticket. I'll take the 20 quid. But I cannot believe that you've shown all. Because as they show up with it, a knotted sweater perhaps over their shoulders.

Exactly. But you know, you talk about a working class voice in Cambridge, for example. But also within the creative industry, for example, that can be, you talk about connections, etc. That can be a hard door to knock through. What advice would you give to a working class creative hoping to get into the industry? Yeah, well, I guess it depends whereabouts in the country you are. It's a couch surf in London

for six months while I was finding a job in London. And like that was kind of my path. And not everyone can do that, of course. And there's other people that might be able to stay at a friend or have a flat in London or whatever it is. But I think finding the education teams in your local theatre. So like for me, the every man, for example, they've got an incredible education team with loads of resources and if you send an email or ask for a coffee often there will be someone

at the other end of that really happy to, you know, give you some time. So I think it's about being brave as well. There's like an entitlement that I think working class people aren't often born with or taught that you can just ask someone

for a bit of their time and to impart some wisdom on you so I'd encourage doing that. So, and we haven't even really talked about you being a cleaner at Cambridge which was disallowed, which was shocking to me but I suppose lots of people perhaps know this

but you're meant to concentrate in your studies and not take a part-time job with hilarious consequences. But with this great show, Netflix have come knocking. Yes. Okay, so who would play you? I hope myself. So the dream is that I play myself

as long as it gets developed and greenlit in enough time that I don't get too old. But yeah, I'm hoping I'll be able to do it. But if not, there's loads of incredible Scouse actors that would be able to do a brilliant job. And I would insist on anyone who's Scouse being a Scouse. Jade Frank's show Eat the Rich But Maybe Not Me Mates is on at the Soho Theatre in London

until the end of January, then Bristol and her hometown of Liverpool later this year. That's it from me today. Join Nula on Monday. She'll be talking to Bonnie Langford about performing in Paddington the musical and she'll be singing live. Do join Nula then. From me, enjoy the rest of your weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. Do the wonder products that you see on your social media in supermarket shelves really deliver on their bold claims. Dehumidifiers, standing discs. nail polish. From supplements claiming to boost your mind and body. I've seen so many claims about creatine. To fake tans promising a safe, streak-free glow.

I really like it. I'm Greg Foote and my BBC Radio 4 show Slice Bread is back to separate more science fact from marketing fiction. I would tend to lean towards it being a positive. All our suggestions come from your emails or voice notes, even if you're a bit under the weather. Hello, Greg. I want to know about cough mixture. I'm finding out the answers in my new series of sliced bread, available first on BBC Sounds.