Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Stacey Dooley, Authors Yuan Yang and Sanam Mahloudji, Adolescence, Gossip, AI, Boxing & domestic violence

Episode Date: March 29, 2025

In the documentary Growing up Gypsy, Stacey Dooley gets to know three young English Romany Gypsy women. Invited into the traditionally private community, Stacey discovers the complex balancing act the young women face growing up in one of Britain’s most maligned ethnic minorities. She meets 23 year old Chantelle who prides herself in keeping with the ‘old’ Gypsy values her granny Rita taught her and shares her ‘Gypsy Cleaning’ videos on social media where she has nearly 400,000 followers on TikTok and 15 million likes on her page. Chantelle joined Kylie Pentelow to talk about her life, alongside Stacey Dooley.In this week’s Women’s Prize discussion, Clare McDonnell heard from two authors about the debut books they’ve had long-listed for this year’s prestigious literary prize. Sanam Mahloudji’s novel, The Persians, tells the story of the Valiat family from the perspective of five women from 1940s Iran into a splintered 2000s. And Labour MP Yuan Yang’s non-fiction book, Private Revolutions, explores the lives of four women born in China in the 1980s and 90s during a time of rapid change in society.Since its release, the Netflix TV series Adolescence has caused widespread discussion about what’s shaping our teenagers’ lives. The four-part series follows the fallout from 13-year-old Jamie’s arrest on suspicion of murdering his female classmate, Katie. The show is a critique of social media-boosted toxic masculinity and its role in the teenage experience. Clare discussed the issues with clinical psychologist, Dr Amani Milligan and Consultant Forensic Psychologist, Dr Ruth Tully.Do you enjoy a bit of gossip? The thrill of being the first to hear something and sharing it, or the irresistible urge to be let into the lives of others? What’s the difference between idle gossip and hurtful criticism behind someone’s back, do women gossip as much as men and can gossip be used to keep women safe? American journalist Kelsey McKinney joined Clare to discuss her new book, You Didn't Hear This From Me: Notes on the Art of Gossip.Technology journalist and author Lara Lewington asks how artificial intelligence can improve women’s health, and what we are ready for it to do for us? From prevention and diagnostics to testing and tracking, we speak to female experts, scientists and practitioners. Her experts include Madhumita Murgia, AI Editor of the Financial Times, Nell Thornton, Improvement Fellow, The Health Foundation and Dr Ellie Cannon, a GP and author.This week we heard how victims and survivors of domestic abuse want the police to better protect them from perpetrators, but there's also a very practical and positive way some women have been trying to process their trauma to build a future for themselves. British boxer Lesley Sackey - who previously won gold at the EU Championships - is a survivor of an abusive relationship and now helps other women to gain confidence and move forward by getting into the boxing ring. She joined Claire, along with Olivia Culverhouse, who took part in Lesley’s 10-week Fight Forward course.Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Annette Wells Editor: Sarah Crawley

Hello, this is Kylie Pentelow and you're listening to the Woman's Hour Podcast. Hello and welcome to a selection of standout moments from the week. Coming up today, Netflix drama Adolescence has touched a nerve worldwide. The four-part drama centres on 13-year-old Jamie who's accused of murdering his female classmate. One episode focuses on the pre-trial assessment between Jamie and his clinical psychologist. We're here for both the clinical and forensic psychologist about what it's actually like to be in that room. Also two of the finalists who've made it to the long list of the Women's Prize Literary

Award – Sanam Mellugi and Yuan Yang. Both books are about their homelands, Iran and China, exploring themes of power, family and secrets. A former medal-winning boxer and survivor of domestic abuse, who is now using boxing to help other women who've experienced domestic violence to build a more positive future for themselves. For me, I've got quite a busy ADHD brain, and this is three minutes of sparring where I'm just, it's silence and you're like floating. And it's like painting a picture,

okay, this sounds very woo-woo, but you're jabbing and you're just thinking about hit or not be hit and that's it. There's nothing else. There's no school run. There's no WhatsApp. There's no TikTok. So yeah, it's a pretty focused few minutes. And gossip. Do you do it? Do you enjoy it? Are you thrilled when you're the first to hear a juicy titbit or do you take a very different view? There's lots to discuss. So let's get started. you. There's lots to discuss, so let's get started. In the documentary Growing Up Gypsy, journalist and documentary maker Stacey Dooley gets to

know three young English Romany Gypsy women. Invited into the traditionally private community, Stacey discovers the complex balancing act that the young women face growing up in one of Britain's most maligned ethnic minorities. She meets 23-year-old Chantelle, who prides herself in keeping with the old gypsy values her granny Rita taught her, and shares her gypsy cleaning videos on social media where she has nearly 400,000 followers on TikTok and 15 million likes on her page. I was joined this week by Stacey Ann Chantel and I began by asking Stacey why she was drawn to this subject. I suppose the ambition of the film was to really try and understand these communities on a slightly deeper level. Do you know what I mean? I think arguably, particularly the

travelling community, the Romani Gypsy community, I think outsiders, the rhetoric has been pretty one dimensional. Do you know what I mean? And we've seen the kind of, you know, my big fat Gypsy wedding, you know, we've seen that angle. But I just was desperate to hear from the women themselves, spend proper time with them in their homes and understand what life looks like day to day, what's important, what your values look like, what does it mean to be a Romani Gypsy traveller in 2025. And actually Chantelle, I'm not saying this because she's sat next to me, was a delight from start to finish, so accommodating, so candid, very forthcoming, very transparent, taught me through everything. I'm delighted with the end result.

Yeah, I think we were happy. And I guess for people who don't know that your kind of work that you do, you do kind of immerse yourself in the community that you're in as part of the film. Did you know much about the Romani Gypsy way of life before you started filming? Not a huge amount. I mean, I had Romani Gypsy friends because actually, and this is completely coincidental, we found out when we started filming, Chantelle's husband, Swaley, lived in the site directly opposite my school. So, you know, I had pals who lived within that site. But I hadn't spent a huge amount of time in the chalets, you know, with the families on a Sunday. I think it was always I was sort of an outsider looking in.

And that is it, isn't it, Chantelle? Like you don't, you don't see many of these types of documentaries. Is that because, from your perspective, were you a bit worried about the filming process? Did it take a lot of thinking to decide whether you wanted to be part of it? It took me a long time to decide to do it because you always get painted bad in the public eye of, you know, gypsies are bad people, gypsies this, gypsies like that. I was honored to do this, you know, with Stacey and she made me feel so, like, comfortable.

Yeah, comfortable. She made me feel comfortable. And it was, it was a big thing to let people in to see this side of us, you know? And it was really good and we've had a lot of positive feedback from it. From within the community? Yeah, within the community. So this is like one of the first real shows that's been on TV that showed this such positive side of us, not just the bad. Can I ask you about the term traveller and gypsy? What do you think about those terms and what do you prefer to be called?

Well my granny's an old fashioned, like she's a gypsy Romani. Years ago everyone was, when they said gypsies, it was just travellers. But nowadays people say travellers for Irish gypsies. But I've been brought up to say gypsies and travellers are basically the same. What did you think about that Stacey? Were you keen to get that right? Yeah, I said to the girls early doors, you'll have to sort of forgive my ignorance and tell me at the start what you prefer. And some of the girls, there were three girls that we filmed with, all of Deli, and some of the girls preferred traveller and some of our girls preferred Gypsy, so I've obviously been led by them. But a lot went into pre-production. We had a consultant, a lady from Chantel's community who was very, super helpful in terms of language and what we couldn't talk about. There were obvious boundaries which we completely respected entirely. Let's talk about your cleaning videos that you put online on social media. What are they

for people who haven't seen them? What do you do in your videos? So I start cleaning and I talk about all different types of things. I feel real strongly about mental health because I suffer with that myself. And I talk about like, oh, today I got up cleaning and I didn't feel like doing it but I'm doing it and I start talking about all these different things that I go through in life and people just like responded like I'm feeling that way too. So then my followers went up quite big and I had a lot of good like feedback from that as well and I just like show people this is how I make the bed, this is what I do in a day. Spend the day

with a gypsy. So it went kind of big. I wonder if you've heard any backlash though on those cleaning videos because obviously it's you know that stereotypical image isn't it of the woman staying at home and doing the cleaning. What has the response been like? I have a lot of women in our gypsy community saying oh you shouldn't be talking about that you know that's private situations like with the cleaning and I talk about like obviously my mental health and they would say like, oh my god you're making us look like idiots but this is just me, what you see with me is what you get and doing this cleaning video has helped a lot of people

just by talking about certain stuff in it so I will continue to keep doing it. And you talked about losing a baby too. Why did you decide to share that? Well in our community we don't talk about certain things and having a miscarriage is something that we don't talk about. I've never heard another woman talk about it. Really? Yeah, like within our own community because they're just so quiet and proud people. They don't want people to know they're struggling. So I struggled really hard with my third one, really hard. And I was like to Swaley, I want to talk about it. And he said, okay, if you want to do it, you do it, but be prepared for the bad comments. So I'd done this video and I did break down on the video. And the people started messaging

me saying, thank you for speaking up about that. You know, that's a very hard subject. And I was so proud that I helped people and it gave me a bit like a bit of comfort to know that I wasn't alone and like even outside of the community women were saying like don't worry you're gonna get there I've been through it 11 times you know there's so many people and I ain't spoke about enough. That must have been so hard if people haven't you know you haven't heard about losing a baby before in you know in your own community and then you then you go through it three times. haven't, you know, you haven't heard about losing a baby before in, you know, in your

own community and then you go through it three times. Well, after I finished filming the documentary I went through it another time as well. Oh, I'm so sorry. So, on the third one it was very, very hard and like I said, you never really hear about it. There's things like in our community you will not be, like it won't be spoke about. And since I have, like a lot of girls in our community has opened up and there's like I had a girl call me a few days ago crying it's like thank you she said I needed

someone to talk to. I was like listen I might you don't know me I don't know you you you'll call my phone anytime you want to have a chat and it's helped a lot of women. And your granny Rita as well she her opinion felt really progressive because granny Rita Chant nan was saying, you know, Stacey, back in my day, you would just shut the curtains on the chalet and you'd be in there for a couple of days, gather your thoughts and then be expected to sort of be back on form. But she is hugely supportive, isn't she, in terms of how vocal you are. And you described what Shantel's doing in the documentary as radical. It did feel radical, you know, quietly radical because, you know, sort of to echo what Shantel's doing in the documentary is radical. It did feel, it did feel radical, you know, quietly radical because, you know, sort of

to echo what Chantel's just quite clearly said, you know, this is not a usual conversation that plays out in, in homes like Chantel's. So I felt enormously proud to be able to, you know, facilitate that in some small way. Stacey Dooley and Chantel there. And Growing Up Gypsy is available on iPlayer. Over the last few weeks we've been celebrating the Women's Prize, a literary award founded 30 years ago to award the best writing by women in English. We've invited authors into our studio to discuss their shared themes. This week we discuss two books written by authors about their homeland and exploring themes of power, family and secrets. Sanam Maluji has been long-listed for her debut novel, The Persians. And Labour MP for

early and woodly Yuan Yang's book Private Revolutions has been shortlisted for the non-fiction prize. Claire began by asking Sanam what story her book tells. The Persians is the book and it tells the story of five Iranian women who once mattered as they grapple with finding themselves in one another in an epic tragic comic story that spans 70 years travelling back and forth between Iran and the United States, exploring questions of love, family, money, art, and revolution. But the story starts with a character named Auntie Shirin.

She's on vacation in Aspen, Colorado with her niece Bita. And Bita bails her out of jail after Shirin spent the night there after being arrested for attempted prostitution. Basically, she's flirted with an undercover cop in a nightclub. And I guess she's taken things a little bit too far. And that incident breaks something open for this family. And the book is written in five points of view. So we meet Auntie Shirin, who's this flamboyant, over-the-top character.

She's a woman who's making performance art out of her midlife crisis, which I really love. And then there's Bita, who's the younger niece, who's a law student. She's lost and she's attracted and at the same time repelled by her family. And then after that there's Seema, Bita's mother, who grew up in Iran, a lonely idealist and now is a housewife in Los Angeles. And then there are two women that remained in Iran. There's Elizabeth, mom and Elizabeth, who's the matriarch of the family. And then Niaz, who is Shirin's daughter, who she left behind in Iran. And let's move on to you, Yuan. I mean, your story follows four real women from very different backgrounds, Chinese women who refuse to submit to society's expectations. These are real women. How did you choose your subjects?

I had been posted in Beijing with the Financial Times as a correspondent for about five years by the time that I was writing this book manuscript. And I'd met a number of fascinating men and women, in fact, through all my interviews. And I was trying to whittle down my kind of caste list to a smaller number of individuals who really could exemplify the different changes in China since China's capitalist revolution from the 80s to now. And so all the women in my book are of, I suppose, in Sanam's book, it would be the kind of beta generation, the daughter's generation, women born in the 80s and 90s. And they come of age as the country is also coming of age in its economic transformation.

And I think it's not a coincidence that they all turned out to be women. I did interview a number of young men of that generation. And I think in the end what drew me to the female interviews that I met was the fact that I think there was something about the dynamic between them and myself that meant that they could open up to me as a woman of a similar age and similar cultural background to them. That meant they could disclose not just the kind of social and economic structures that had changed but also the intimate psychology of going through those transformations and that's what the

book is really about. And they felt happy to do that? They felt safe to do that? To talk to you? I mean I met many of these women over a range of a number of years when I was posted in Beijing and some of them I've known since I started my posting in Beijing so I think that process of building trust over time, particularly with Chinese interviewees, given the increasingly restrictive political situation in China is really important. Yeah. You both obviously left your respective homelands.

Sanam, you've all in Iran. How old were you when you left? I was a year and a half. Right. And this was post the Iranian Revolution. This was, I left in, we left in 1979. So just my sister was born on the day of the vote that was Islamic Republic, yes or no. So we left two months after that. And how does that feed into the narrative through your fiction and the perspectives, the different perspectives the women in it have about their homeland and where they've ended up. I don't think I would have had to write this book if I had stayed in Iran.

I think that a lot of the feelings and the questions that I have come from the fact that I didn't grow up in the country of my ancestors. I think there's a James Baldwin quote about how, I don't remember it word for word, but just that there's a James Baldwin quote about how, I don't remember it word for word, but just that the feeling of deep alienation from one's past is something very American. And I think that really resonated with me. And I wanted to explore that feeling in fiction. Yeah. And do you still feel that? Yeah, and and more so more and more as the years go by I have to say and I've lived in London now for eight years So I think having that separation from America at the same time as being I think giving me some freedom to write this book And having that perspective has been really helpful for my fiction I think more and more I think of the fact that at least in my family

Maybe America was just a 40 year old blip Really? That's no interesting. That is so interesting. Joanne, you left when you were four, your family left. Prior to that, and this is a theme I want to, it's another shared theme of the role of grandparents. So you were actually, for the first four years of your life, kind of raised by your grandparents. Yeah. Explain why that was. Yeah, that's right. So before I was four, I lived with my maternal grandparents

in southwest China on the mountainside of a holy Buddhist mountain in the village that they lived in. It was a very beautiful place. And I didn't feel out of the norm. There were many other children of my age who were brought up by their grandparents and whose parents would have been working as migrant workers in far-flung cities. And now my parents were more lucky than that. They were academics working at a university on the other side of China. But in terms of the kind of social status of children like me, we were called the left behind children of our generation. Yeah, but did that give you an incredibly strong bond with your

grandparents? Yes, I'm still very very attached to my maternal grandparents and they did a lot of storytelling with me when I was growing up. And I think it's partly that storytelling. And for my grandfather, who was born in the 1940s, it was the storytelling from the Communist Revolution up to the Cultural Revolution and beyond that gave me this broad sweep of how these different moments

in Chinese history have become translated into individual family histories as well. Sunam, the theme of grandparents, grandchildren present in your book too, in the Persians, the matriarch Elizabeth stays in Tehran, you've mentioned, after the 79 Revolution, along with her granddaughter Niaz. There's a real focus on their dynamics, so similar question to you, Anne. What intrigued you about that? From what I've seen and from my experiences, I think that that kind of idea of these issues

between mothers and daughters kind of going on for generations and generations was something that I really wanted to write about. And I think in a lot of ways, sometimes the relationship between a grandmother and granddaughter can be in some ways more nurturing. And so I have this character, Niaz, who is left behind and is raised by her grandmother, Elizabeth, who's quite prickly actually, and maybe isn't the most, she isn't the most nurturing, but at the same time, she's the one that's there for her and she grows up with her. And I think that I really wanted to explore that relationship. You were nodding during that, a theme that resonates with you. I think there are so many similar themes in Chinese culture, particularly recent post

communist revolution Chinese culture of generational trauma passed on particularly in the women I think of a family and I really identify with what Sanamum was saying about how grandparents feel like they can have a more of a nurturing and almost kind of indulgent role, whereas the parents have the role of preparing you for survival in an often really cutthroat, competitive society where your neighbor telling on you for having the wrong political ideas or missing a promotion at work could mean the difference between a flourishing and safe life and living in the gutter essentially. And that's the kind of stark contrast I think in Chinese society now of the fear that I

think often pervades a child rearing. I was going to add that I think sometimes the character Elizabeth, I think that she's also kind of trying to make up for her failings as a mother with her granddaughter, kind of what she wasn't able to give to her own daughter. Yeah, I'm sure lots of people listening to this, that will completely resonate. It's such an interesting point to say that the parents are the practical ones, and the grandparents maybe can be a little more emotionally nurturing because they've got their distance, but with your grandparents,

I mean, how do they feel about speaking openly? Because as you say, they are from that generation where they're not more guarded about, you know, what they passed on to you when you asked them about all of this. It's funny because I think in a lot of news reporting or in a lot of kind of received stereotypes about modern China, Chinese people can be seen to be docile or be seen to be kind of following the political leader. And in fact I think across different generations there are so many different characteristics of people and I think my grandparents' generation is one that's kind of seen it all. They've

lived through famines, they've lived through civil wars. They probably went to school with the grandfather of the local police officer, you know, and if the local police officer treats them disrespectfully they know who the daughter knock on. So I think in small village China, there are so many different social dynamics that actually are more important than the obvious political dynamics of the situation. Sandhya, that was out of parallel that you were trying to draw because obviously some of your characters go to America and they have abundance and they have freedom. Everybody left behind doesn't necessarily have that. Were you trying to kind of draw out understanding?

No, that's very true. And I think there's a line that I think Shirin says that we didn't come for a better life, we left a better life, because they were very privileged in Iran and then in America nobody really knows who they are, no one cares. And for a long time I thought that she was maybe in denial about the fact that she actually left and is a new Islamic republic and actually was able to live a very free life in the United States. But sometimes I do wonder that maybe there is some truth to that where she did leave an entire history and family and culture behind. And I think that that's a real loss.

JL – Yuan Yang and Sanam Maluji there. Now since its release, the TV show Adolescence has caused widespread discussion around how social media is shaping our teenagers' lives. For those who haven't seen it, the four-part series follows the fallout from 13-year-old Jamie's arrest on suspicion of murdering his female classmate Katie. His social media accounts show he'd been radicalised by misogynist posts. His parents were caught completely unaware. During the show, Jamie is questioned by a psychologist in order to understand his feelings towards women for a pre-trial assessment. The conversation is at times jovial, at times strained and at times angry. Well here's a clip of Erin Doherty who plays psychologist

Bryony trying to talk to Jamie who's played by Owen Cooper. For you. I don't know. It's too big a question, right? And the fight's too small a question. Which is why it's more useful for me to see where the conversation goes and stare at it a bit into what you think of your dad and your granddad, for instance. The type of men you think they are. Rather than saying, So, Jamie, what do you think being a man feels like? So, Jamie, what do you think being a man feels like? It's not a trick.

It's just a conversation. Do you think it would be okay if we speak about your dad a bit? That's a clip from TV show Adolescence produced by Warp Films, Matriarch Productions and Plan B for Netflix. The series has received much praise for its portrayal of this difficult subject. And to discuss this further, Claire was joined by Dr. Amani Milligan, a clinical psychologist, and Dr. Ruth Tully, a consultant forensic psychologist. She began by asking Dr. Amani Milligan, what did they get so right? I think the thing that they touched on really brilliantly is that there are so many different factors at play. I think, you know, you'll see in the interviews when you talk to the, they're talking to

the cast, you know, they didn't want there to be a one thing that you could blame this situation on. You know, you saw flaws within the school system, you saw difficulties with the family, you saw how social media had to, had a play in everything as well. So the fact that they can show you that there are so many different factors at play here that interact with each other and create this unique experience is something that I think they did really, really well

because this is something that we need to address. These are things that we need to consider at all levels. I think part of the reason it's so confronting for people when they watch the show is that, you know, this is a quote unquote normal looking boy, you know, he is quite young looking and quite innocent-looking and I think a lot of the times when we think about these kind of horrific violent attacks, you know, the media and the news around it will be like, you know, this is an animal, this is

a monster, this is someone that is quite detached from you or maybe they'll be speaking about people who have quite difficult life experiences that, you know, are outside of the norm, quote unquote. So to see it happen in a, you know, quite normal looking family, typical family, is something that I think it brings it home. And actually all these factors can also influence those young people as well, not just the ones that we think are outside of the norm. And easier for us as society to digest. Yes. If you can put somebody over there. Absolutely.

If it's not in our home, it's over there. Yeah, you can detach yourself from it as well, and you can think, you know, this would never happen to me, but it very much can happen. And in my experiences, when I'm working with young people, they come from all walks of life. And there are so many different factors at play. And, you know, it can be quite shocking for young people

and families when they actually become a part of this type of situation Because they're like, well, how did this happen? Dr. Ruth Tully an overview from you then on the drama itself and how You think it because everybody seems to be saying and anyone who's involved in your line of work With young people seem to be saying it got the tone, right? And it got the complexity of what you have to deal with Spot-on, would you agree with that? I think that's exactly right. There were some procedural things that weren't quite how things would go in real life but that was overtaken by the tone and the

acting which was absolutely amazing. I would totally agree with all of those things that affect violent decision making in terms of it's not just one thing, it's not just about his experiences within his family or the community or school, it's about all of those things. And what's different now, which the show clearly makes a great highlight of, is the influence of online activity, which as parents is very different from how we grew up, the urgency of the desire for redress for Jamie and so on and being in that room. And what really struck me was showing that psychologist as human as well. We are affected by the work that we do. It's

unusual that you will come across a child who may have murdered someone who is so young. And that is emotionally affecting for us as human beings and psychologists as well so I thought that was a great touch. And you do the same type of pre-trial assessments as the as a little snippet we heard there and that clip showed the fine line you have to tread. How hard is it when you're working with somebody who is that young and what goes into assessing a young person in that situation? It's very difficult. So I tend to choose to work with adults at all the stages of the

justice system, but I do work with young people as well. And what struck me and it highlights there the difficulty is that child was asking for affirmation. He wanted to be liked towards the end of that episode. He asks, do you like me? Do you like me? And that is so important for him. And we can see that played out in the alleged offence as well.

But as a psychologist, in terms of maintaining that professionalism, you're told as a person who wants to tell someone they are likable, they are worthy of being liked, but at the same time, trying to remain as neutral as possible to not affect that assessment you're doing same time trying to remain as neutral as possible to not affect that assessment you're doing, which needs to be as independent as possible it can be.

And do you do that because she refuses to kind of get drawn in the drama? Is that something you can't, you can't affirm that if somebody asks you that? Do you like me? Absolutely. I may have said things around, I've enjoyed speaking with you, it's been a challenge at times. I might have fed that back quite openly because clearly it was aggressive during that and I think clear feedback in the moment where that doesn't place you at risk is important and addressing that in a transparent way. So there might have been some things that would help the dynamic and his trust of professionals that wouldn't have compromised my independence that I would have said, But in the moment, you've got to make the best decision you can

and you're never going to know what that child or an adult at a later stage of the justice system is going to ask you. So you've got to respond thinking on your feet, which is one of the challenges we face as psychologists. That certainly portrays that. Amarni, you work with teenage boys. So I guess you see all of these vulnerabilities. What would you say about social media and the impact it's having? It's having a huge impact. You know, it's grown to a state now where you don't really know what's going to come upon your algorithm and it's very easy for them to get sucked

into quite harmful content. And the thing is, it never really starts with that, you know, most extreme point of view. It would be something around maybe, you know, going to the gym and that feels like, okay, that's fine. This person is telling me to look after myself. Okay, that's fine. And then slowly, but surely, you hear more difficult and harmful speech from that person. And they can get sucked in so easily because it happens so quickly. The for you page and TikTok, for example, is very much designed to suck you in and keep you engaged in that way. And at that age, as teenagers, a lot is happening within the brain, but also psychologically. Within the brain, they are more driven for rewards,

and there's a higher urge for dopamine, which, that quick immediacy that you get from TikTok is going to feed them really, really well. But then also as well, they don't really have the same level of executive functioning to be able to sort of inhibit that impulse and that want for that reward. So they're going to be on it for longer. And then if you put on top of that where they're at psychologically and they're trying to build their own sense of independence and identity, they're very much susceptible to messages that tell them about how they should act

as a man. They're going to be looking out for those templates and sort of adhere to those things because that's the social group that they belong to, so they're going to want a template for that. So if you think about the kind of where they're at with their brains, but also where they're at psychologically, all of those things interlink, which means that social media is a great tool to kind of suck them in. And they get pushed down, once they start there, misogynistic rabbit holes very often. What have you noticed there? I've noticed an increase in kind of the language that I'm seeing that young boys are using in my time with them.

I'm seeing kind of a lot of sort of sexist slurs, you know, directed towards their mothers or how they speak about relationships and how they're going to navigate relationships. Again, leans towards that misogynistic side. And, you know, with some challenging, you can start to pick underneath it. And, you know, a lot of them don't really understand what they're saying, you know, especially when they're particularly young. It's sort of something that they've soaked in. It's a message that they've taken in.

And that's what I've been told to think. And, you know, that's what women are like. So that's true without any kind of critical thinking behind it. And I guess that's where adults need to be interested in this and start to think about, you know, what does this actually mean for you and have those deeper conversations with them. Because if we kind of brush it off or ignore it, or if we are too confronted by it and get a bit scared of it, which is understandable, we can then kind of lead them to their own devices which can be really really harmful.

Just want to bring Ruth back in there and this is a very key theme that the parents are well we didn't know we thought he was safe because he was in the home he was upstairs he wasn't out on the streets but you know it's what you let into your home and what they're accessing. How much do parents do you think know about their teenagers' lives these days? And how can you find out more? Because without alienating them even further, which is always the tricky balance, isn't it? Well, it can be very little that parents actually know about what's going on. We feel safe, we feel that they're safe because they're in the home, but what we don't realise is

that people are in our home in that sense through the internet and they're at this vulnerable age where they're finding their own identity. And from what I've seen as well, particularly working with sexual offenders, is that that exposure to not just misogynistic but also sexualised content, different types of pornography can desensitize young people to what is expected within sexual relationships and so on and there's a lot of sexual harm caused by that. So I think it's about parents being curious and trying to find out it's easier as was just said to ignore, people are scared, people are worried they don't understand it but to think I can't understand is going to be a problem, it's going to be a barrier, so be curious. It's also about

transparency. If people are covertly trying to monitor what their children are doing online, that can just foster mistrust. So it's about doing that collaboratively and in discussion and being curious. But unfortunately, we don't have all of the answers. It would be a lot easier if we did. So we have to be aware as parents that this harmful content is out there and at that age it's just so influential about their attachment patterns, their templates, their healthy relationships and their attitudes and once attitudes are formed and it does become attitudinal, those things are much more difficult to change. Dr Amani Milligan and Dr Ruth Tully there and if you've been affected by anything that you've heard you can go to the BBC Action Line website.

Still to come on the programme, how a former medal-winning boxer and survivor of domestic abuse is using boxing to help other women who have experienced domestic violence to build a more positive future for themselves. And remember that you can enjoy Women's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. Just subscribe to the Daily Podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Do you enjoy a bit of a good gossip? The thrill of being the first to hear something and sharing it, or the irresistible urge to be let into the lives of others? What's the difference between idle gossip and hurtful criticism

behind someone's back? To women, gossip as much as men, and can gossip be used to keep women safe? American journalist Kelsey McKinney may have some of the answers. She's written a book called You Didn't Hear This From Me, Notes on the Art of Gossip. Kelsey joined Claire this week and she began by asking her where does the word gossip come from? So the etymology of gossip comes from the old English word god-sib. It's two words and that started as a word that meant the birthing room. It was the people who would go into the birthing room with you. So like your mom's best friends. And over time, that came to mean the actual conversation happening within that birthing room. And so we're talking about a word that starts with the conversation of women and it starts with an intimacy that is like unbreakable.

That's so fascinating, isn't it? What goes on in the birthing room stays in the birthing room, or maybe it doesn't when you're talking about gossip. Why do you love it? Because there is, there's a big difference isn't there between gossip and criticism, talking about somebody behind their back. So where's the line? Sure, yeah. So definitionally, I'm using a really broad definition for gossip. So thinking about it is kind of an umbrella term. Gossip is anything where two people are talking to each other about someone who isn't present. Which means that if you and I talk about a celebrity, that's gossip. If you and in terms of the difference in criticism, right, criticism I think comes from can be gossip, of course, if you're talking about

someone who's not there. Yeah, because it can be used as a power move, can't it? I'm sure there's plenty of people listening now where gossip can take on a bit of a darker tone, can't it? It can be used to undermine, it can be used to weaponize information against people. Yeah, of course. I mean, gossip is a tool the way that a hammer is a tool. You can use it for good or evil.

It's not something that in itself contains a morality. Yeah. Why do we love to do it then? What kind of connection does it give us, do you think? Well, I mean, you don't gossip with someone you hate. That's like a pretty firm rule. You only gossip with your friends. And so there is a form of trust that is created with gossip.

We know that even though if I'm gossiping in a bar, my heart rate is up, I'm really excited, I'm using a lot of gesticulation. Scientists have proven though that your heart rate lowers. So even though you're really excited, you feel safer when you're gossiping because you know that there's a trust there between you and the person you're talking to. And that's the thing, is it, that we only kind of let people into our most intimate secrets or something we've heard when you have that level of trust? I think most people, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But also people kind of trying to elicit gossip from people. You say it's not people you hate, but it may, you know, have you read Machiavelli? I mean, it's not always positive, is it? Because you can act as if you're letting somebody into your trust, but actually there's this sort of darker motives underneath. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, having information about the world around you gives you power. We know that like anyone who has gone through adolescence knows

that having information about other people is a power position. And so of course, you can elicit it from people and use it for defarious reasons in the same way you could use anything. When is it not good then? I mean, do you ever, you're someone who loves the, you know, the gossip and the tittle tattle. And it could be, it could be, as you say, it could be somebody you know, it could be showbiz. It can be completely harmless, but are there situations in your life where you actually take a step back and go, no, I don't really want to engage in this now. Yeah, absolutely. That happens to me all the time.

Because I have like kind of branded myself as someone who loves gossip and thinks a lot about gossip. People are constantly bringing me stuff, which I love. I love hearing crazy stories about people in the world around me. And I think it's really hard to set that boundary for yourself of what is good and what is not good. And unfortunately, it's not like an easy fast rule. You do just kind of have to know in your body. And I think you do like, you know, when someone's talking to you and it feels icky or malicious or bad.

What do you do in that situation? Do you speak up? I usually excuse myself from the conversation or I say like, this is not fun and I don't like this. And you make that very clear to the person who's telling you? Yeah, I try to. You don't feel uncomfortable about that? I mean, I'm an assertive person and I'm an American, so not really. Yeah, let's all take a leaf out of your book. I just want to read some texts from a few

people. Please. Jamila's been in touch on gossip. It's actually forbidden in my religion, Islam. We have to avoid talking about others in a way they would dislike, even if it's true. Yes, it is hard to stick to sometimes. Do you look into that, the cultural differences of, you know, around the world of how people gossip. Yeah, I did. And I grew up evangelical, which is like a very conservative American Christian sect. And because of that, it was also considered a sin in the culture that I was brought up in. And for me, that was something that I had to really investigate personally and figure out like, what exactly did it mean? Right? I know that Islam forbids backbiting and slander, for example, backbiting and slander are both separate from talking

about someone you work with. And I think that's the kind of nuance that I think is important here, because it's very easy for people in power to say never ever gossip. It is bad without considering that there is often forms of gossip that is not to the detriment of your neighbour, right? If you know that your neighbour is hungry and you talk to someone about that, and then the two of you make them dinner and bring it to them, that's to their advantage. That's a form of gossip that is for good.

Kelsey McKinney there and her book, You Didn't Hear This From Me, Notes on the Art of Gossip, is out now. This week, technology journalist, broadcaster and author Lara Lewington presented a special programme looking at AI and its potential to transform women's health. Artificial intelligence can come in many forms, but in simple terms, it's a computer simulation of human intelligence that can perform tasks like learning, reasoning or solving problems. The government says AI is already being used in the UK in health settings, including for diagnosing breast cancer quicker and earlier. But AI isn't human, so how do we deal with issues of trust and make sure we use it in

the right ways. On the expert panel for the programme was Madhameeta Merjia, AI Editor at the Financial Times and author of Code Dependent, How AI is Changing Our Lives, Dr Ellie Cannon, GP and Women's Health Specialist and Nell Thornton, Improvement Fellow at the Health Foundation. And Lara began by asking for a definition of AI in this context. AI has become this umbrella term thrown around for everything from chat GPT to our kids' education. But in this context, really, we just think of it as a software that is trained on a huge amount of data with health that would be health data. And it's able to spot patterns in that data. So if it's a

picture of your chest, it's able to see, for example, if there's early signs of some kind of cancer or other illness. So essentially, it's just statistical software that learns these patterns over time and then can be applied to predict very accurately, in many cases more than the average human, whether somebody is ill or not. You use the word patterns there, which is absolutely crucial to this, both in terms of us tracking our own health and understanding at a personal level, and that uses AI too, and what AI is doing at a healthcare level. How crucial are patterns to all of this and why does this

make the difference? Yes, I think this is why I feel kind of most optimistic about the potential of AI in healthcare because when you, from a kind of scientific academic perspective, and I'm a former student of immunology here, so it's something that I'm kind of really interested in, you do see patterns over time, you know, across genders, across specific ethnicities. And if you have a tool that is able to find these sometimes subtle patterns that aren't picked up by us, even human experts, you're able to kind of solve problems and issues that have gone years without being found, right? So the potential here is to go beyond to augment what humans have been able to do so far and to sort of co-evolve alongside human experts to

provide much better outcomes for women. The possibilities here are enormous. Nell, would you describe this as the early days and how excited are you about where we might be heading? Yeah, so we know that there are lots of challenges around women's health. And so as powerful technologies like AI become available, it's right that we're asking the question about whether they can help us address some of these challenges. But it is still early days. And so as we're exploring the use of these technologies, it's going to be really important that we're not just making sure that they're safe

and that they're not making things worse, but that we're actively taking steps to use AI to make things better. And a critical part of that is going to be talking to women and understanding how they feel about AI being used as part of their care. And our research at the Health Foundation has shown that women do broadly support the use of AI

for use in their care, as do the general public but it does change when we kind of break things down by gender and we see actually women are consistently less supportive of AI when... Why do you think that is? So what we see in our data is that women are have a bit less faith in the accuracy of AI systems so a third think that perhaps AI systems aren't yet accurate enough and that incorrect decisions might be made and they're actually less convinced that AI is going to improve care quality when compared to men. We also need to have data that's good enough and we've had years of not enough data from women.

So how do we overcome that now? Because we also need data that's collected for purpose. We need good data or none of this is any use. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, the kind of the classic term that's used is garbage in, garbage out. So if we use poor data, we're going to get poor results. It's absolutely right that the women need to be represented in that data. And our survey work at the Health Foundation has actually found that around 75% of the public are happy for at least some of their data to be used to power AI systems. So it's a really positive finding but crucial to that is going to be making sure that we're being

trustworthy and that's about having the right rules in place for the access to data and also being seen to use those and enforce those because the more people trust it, the more happy they will be to give it. Absolutely. So let's get from you, Dr. Ellie, a bit of what this means on the ground. How much AI are you using in your surgery and what's the reaction that you're having? So I'm possibly an early adopter as a GP and I use an AI transcription tool in all of my consultations and that basically means that my AI and it's a specific health scribe listens to our consultation

when you come in. Obviously I get permission from my patients to do that and then rather than me either writing notes after the patient has left or while they're there I can just concentrate and listen and the AI scribe is writing all of my notes and the beauty of that is not a sort of like just a sort of quick thing to save me time. What that means is a lot of the subtleties and a lot of the data and the actual narrative which can be so important in women's health is captured. Obviously it's all checked by me because I firmly believe as I'm sure the panel does as well that AI needs their humans to work very well.

And that just means that all of that proper data is there for that patient, which means that referrals are quicker, investigations are quicker. And for example, let's say in difficult circumstances where we know there are problems with women's health, in mental health and in things like endometriosis, you've got good, good narrative there to help that woman and to move things forward. This is very clearly augmenting you and I think people will find that reassuring but also these platforms we're using, these are built for purpose with privacy and

safety built into them and I think that's probably quite important to note that this isn't just use of AI platforms that anyone can go online and do. The data is not being trained on people's personal data. You are using things that are for this purpose. There is still worry from a lot of people. Partly people don't necessarily understand how it works or what's happening. They know what data is going in, they know what comes out, they don't know what's happening in the middle.

What concerns do you think people are likely to have and are they justified? There's definitely downsides, right? No technology is perfect, particularly one that's so new. And we have a tendency to trust when machines make decisions for us, like we treat them like a calculator, which is either right or wrong. AI is not like that. It's predicting a probability, a risk of something. So the main risks, I think, there's twofold. One is when it makes errors, which it will because it's a statistical prediction engine, those errors can get multiplied very quickly and scaled up if the same tool is being used on 60 million people compared to a human error, which is always confined. And so it's really important to audit these tools.

And I think people are justified to worry that it can make mistakes because it's not going to be perfect. It's not a calculator. And we need to have a process in place for when it does go wrong. How do I, as a patient, come back and say, that's not right. Can you fix it? We don't want a situation like with the post office scandal where nobody's responsible ultimately and those errors get sort of multiplied over time. And the second big issue is bias. We've talked about the quality of the data, right? And you can have

gender bias when you're looking at healthcare as a whole, but even within women's health, you can have ethnicity bias, socioeconomic bias, age bias, and we want to make sure that this is the right outcome no matter what your age or where you're from or what the color of your skin is. And we've seen, for example, this exists with maternal mortality. Black women are more than three times as likely to die within a year of giving birth compared to Caucasian women. And so if that gets multiplied in an AI system,

then you're going to have worse outcomes for one group over another. So those are very much justified concerns, I think, and need to be designed and kind of accounted for within the design and implementation and kind of the policy around these systems. Nell, how do you think we can deal with this to make sure that fair information is available to everyone so everyone gets the best out of AI and nobody's left behind? Yeah, it's a really good question and obviously the data bias and making sure that the data right is an absolutely critical part of that. But there's another element of this which

is what happens at the point of implementation. You can have the most perfect AI system in the world, but if it's not implemented in the right way, that can lead to bias. What we see at the moment within the NHS is that AI is largely being explored in organisations that are kind of pockets of excellence that have the resources and the skills to do this well. What we risk seeing is growing an X-ray between the parts of the system that can afford it and can do that properly and those that can't. That's another element we need to be looking at is how can we support

the country as a whole to move forward with AI and not widen the gap. MS. MADHUMEDA MIRGIAH, DR ELLY CANNON AND NELL THORNTON TALKING TO LARA LOWINGTON There. Well, a government spokesperson in response said we are trialling the use of AI to speed up diagnosis and treatment for a range of women's health issues including diagnosing breast cancer and endometriosis, detecting pregnancy complications and offering personalised menopause treatment. These pioneering initiatives will improve treatment, expand patient choice and save lives. They go on to say, as we deliver our plan for change, AI will be the catalyst needed to transform healthcare, moving from analogue to digital and creating an NHS fit for the future.

We can listen to that full programme by going to BBC Sounds and selecting Thursday, the 27th of March. Earlier this week, we heard about the findings of the annual National Police Report on domestic homicides that revealed that suicide was the most common cause of death among victims in England and Wales in the year to the end of March 2024. Well, Claire spoke to two women about a very practical way that they're processing their trauma and so building a more positive future for themselves. Claire was joined by Leslie Saki, a former medal-winning boxer who won gold at the EU Championships and is a survivor of an abusive relationship. She now helps other women to

gain confidence and move forward in their lives by getting into the boxing ring. She was also joined by Olivia Culverhouse, who took part in Lesley's course last year. And Claire began by asking Lesley what was the inspiration for the course? So Fight Forward is an organisation I set up in response to my own journey out of leaving an abusive relationship. I wanted to connect with what felt powerful and strong, but there was also something around telling a story and showing others what's possible.

So I understood that through the process of boxing, it provided me ownership over my body, my voice. It allowed me to go through a process that was really healing and to step into the ring, not only to show my three daughters what is possible, but also for all the women who didn't think that's possible to show others what can be done. One of the programs is the Fight Back Initiative, where we train a group of women to step into the ring for a 10-week programme. And the idea is about exactly that consent and stepping into the ring ownership

over your body and your voice. But what I didn't learn or could predict was the immense power of community and connection that these women created, which is a huge part of the healing process and the lack of isolation. Olivia, you were nodding away to what Leslie was saying, every single word. How did you come to be involved in this course? What went on in your life? So I went through two years being part of a domestic violent relationship. It was abusive physically and sexually and emotionally. And I really thought it was going to end me.

I contemplated suicide. And there was a moment where he was abusive in public. And I thought, this is it. I can't do this anymore. He's either going to take my life or I'm going to do it. So I then reached out to a friend who knew a police officer and she was like, there is another, there is a way out of this. So then led my journey and six years later, here I am.

Oh, that's so good to hear. So you, you did actually get the help you needed. I did. I did. And I mean, I've got the most incredible family and some pretty powerful sisters who were who were there to support me and lift me up. And yeah, I wouldn't be here without them, that's for sure. What do you get from this course? Oh, my goodness. Well, 10 weeks of exercise was pretty hardcore. And it's every day, which is not spoken about every single day, 6am, 5k.

Seven days a week. Well, you got one day off to sleep. So the community that you got, which I hadn't also realized, I thought it was just going to be a bit of boxing, bit of exercise, with women who I've not, I've not spent a lot of time with women who have been through domestic violence, or at least spoken about it. So you're with ten other women who totally get it, and you have the community as well as this boxing, which has completely changed my life.

I've always played rugby, so this was a whole new sport for me. And it was, yeah, it has changed my life. Why do you love it? For me, I've got quite a busy ADHD brain, and this is three minutes of sparring where I'm just... It's silence, and you're like floating. And it's like painting a picture, you're... Okay, this sounds very woo-woo. But you're jabbing and you're just thinking about it's like painting a picture you're okay this sounds very woo-woo but you're you're jabbing and you're you're just thinking about hit or not be hit and that's it there's nothing else there's no school

run there's no whatsapp there's no tik-tok so yeah it's a pretty focused few minutes and this is the point Leslie isn't it I suppose you have to be in the moment when you're in the ring I think there's no room for distractions there's no room for distractions and also it's really about showing up for yourself. So this is my time, this is my moment and in doing so, you know, there's a lot of scientific research around, you know, physical movement and trauma and how it moves. You know, trauma lives in the body and doing something vigorous can be really helpful to that process.

So we're actually creating a research proposal to look at how boxing can actually be a viable tool used to heal women who have experienced domestic abuse. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, that we're talking about boxing, a violent sport, as a response to a negative violence in a way. What would you say to that? It feels like an ironic conclusion. It sounds controversial. I've definitely had feedback as to why you're putting women who've experienced violence into situations that seem volatile but it's quite the opposite because it's about ownership and autonomy over yourself and and taking back control and at the same time showing up and choosing this for yourself and at any time you can say no I don't want to do this

and that is a huge part of reclaiming your power. In fact it alchemises that process. It's the least violent thing and maybe because I play rugby at grassroots level and that's a lot more violent. Exactly. Whereas because you're so focused and you're calm and it's, as I say about floating, but it's the jab and the cross and it's, yeah, it's not violent. I mean, but I mean, if you meet boxers, they're just the least violent people, right? Yeah. And what's really special is the community of women. We're really good at kind of celebrating each other and afterwards saying, oh, that was a great jab. Good jab. Yeah.

Oh, you got me there, didn't you? Yeah. It's so ridiculous. It's not match-o at all. No. You had a public match, did you? At the end, do you mean? I mean, have you done that? We did at the end, end of the 10 weeks.

I'm glad you asked, because I did win. Thank you for asking. How could you forget that? And yeah, it was quite incredible. And having my family and the whole boxing team, my boyfriend, they're cheering me on. I mean, that is just a moment just looking back. It was it was pretty epic. That was Olivia Colberhouse and Lesley Sackie there. And of course, if you have been affected

by anything you heard there, you can of course use the BBC Action Line website. Now Nula will be here on Monday when her guests include the author Marnie Appleton. Ghosts, break-ups, dead-end jobs and threatening cookies are all themes from her debut. I hope you're happy. She'll be talking about horror, humour and the surreal world of modern womanhood.