Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Stalking, Children and happiness, Indigo Reign

Episode Date: April 11, 2026

Student Jodie Morrow tells Nuala McGovern about her ordeal of being arrested after her stalker falsely accused her of stalking him. He has now been jailed after pleading guilty to harassment and perverting the course of justice, and the Police Service of Northern Ireland has acknowledged "shortcomings" in how the case was handled. Jodie is now helping the police to try to improve how they handle stalking cases.How does light inspire and motivate us, and how can we harness it and use it to our advantage? GP Dr Radha Modgil joins Nikki Bedi to discuss the impact of light on our health and wellbeing.The largest display of Queen Elizabeth II’s clothing has opened at The King’s Gallery, Buckingham Palace. The exhibition, 'Elizabeth II: Her Life in Style', marks the centenary of the late Queen's birth and brings together around 200 items. Spanning all 10 decades of her life, it showcases the full breadth of her wardrobe. Anita Rani visited the gallery for a tour with its curator, Caroline de Guitaut.Do you think that having kids makes you happy? A new study from the University of Nicosia in Cyprus suggests not. It drew on data from more than 5,000 participants in ten countries, including the UK, and concluded that there is no strong evidence that parenthood leads to a measurable increase in positive emotions. To discuss the findings and weigh up their own experiences, we hear from two mothers of two - Ella Whelan author of ‘What Women Want,’ and Iko Haruna, a family photographer and former presenter of ParentLand, the BBC World Service’s podcast.Indigo Reign, formerly known as Lady MC, is one of the first female MCs in jungle music. She's just been part of a landmark moment for global music culture, bringing the 'godfathers' of drum and bass, Fabio and Grooverider, to headline the first-ever jungle and drum & bass festival in East Africa, called NURAFest and it took place in Kenya. Born in prison, she grew up around gang culture and found her voice in jungle music, becoming an award-winning MC and artist, who turned disadvantage on its head. She's also the founder of the Young Urban Arts Foundation, helping thousands of young people through music.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Today, are people with children happier than those without? A new study says, apparently not. We'll hear from two mothers. I take you on a tour of the largest exhibition of the late Queen Elizabeth II's fashion and wardrobe choices. We also hear about the benefits of light on our health and well-being. Now spring has finally sprung. And one of the first female MCs in jungle music,

Indigo Rain, formerly Lady MC, on how music changed the course of her life and the work she's now doing to support young people. But first, police in Northern Ireland have apologised over serious failures in a stalking case, admitting shortcomings in how it was handled. Ulster University student, Jodie Morrow, repeatedly reported concerns about Reagan Granger,

who has since changed his name to Ezra Garfield, but he was not arrested. Instead, she was detained, following false allegations against her. More than five years later, Garfield was jailed after pleading guilty to harassment and perverting the course of justice, with police now working with Jody

to improve how stalking and harassment cases are handled. Some of these details you may find distressing. Nula began by asking Jody about their first encounter. Originally we matched on Tinder during lockdown and we spoke for a couple months online and then finally met up whenever the restrictions lifted over the summer. And at that stage, what was happening?

He was the loveliest guy I had dated up to that point. Like, he was so normal. We went on lovely dates. Yeah, there was absolutely no red flags in the beginning. And then what was the point of change? At the end of summer, I was about to go back to uni and I was sort of thinking, and maybe not carry this into a proper relationship.

You know, he seems nice, but I don't know if there's a big spark. So I was going to end things anyway. And long story short, he ended up having quite a few drinks while we were out and I was building my confidence to have the conversation to let him down gently. And over the course of the night, he got so drunk that he ended up admitting to me that he had been on bail the entire time that we had been seeing each other for the way he phrased at the time was threatening a girl with sexual violence, which obviously was absolutely terrifying to hear as the woman who was currently

out for drinks of him. So yeah, he ended up passing out in my flat and I had to work out how to get him home. His family had to drive two hours to come pick him up. So he was asleep for most of that, thank goodness. But it was an absolutely insane night. So obviously you never

wanted to see him again. But it didn't end there. What happened? Yeah, initially he seemed really reasonable about it. He said, you know, I understand if you never want to see me again. He was looking at me to message him back and let him know what I was thinking. when I said, just give me a couple of days.

And when I finally came back and said, you've been lovely, but there's absolutely no way I can keep speaking to you. This has to end. He then switched and that was it. That was when he started being really, really angry, saying I was the worst person that I had led him on, that he at this stage revealed to me

that he had applied for Ulster University, where I was about to go on my second year and he told me he had applied for me and that he was doing all the stuff from me. He had booked accommodation next to me. All of this, which he hadn't let on about until this point, where I was ending things and I was like, well, that's a bit ridiculous

because we barely know each other. And at that stage, I said, you need to stop contacting me, don't contact me again. Then after I blocked him or removed him on Snapchat, that he started pretending to be his parents to message me, saying that he had left home and was in my flat and they needed to come get him.

And I was saying, that's insane. He's not here. I've told him I'd never want to speak to him again. And it just sort of escalated from there, pretending to be his parents, pretend to be his friends. What was going through your head? Because this was something that was quite casual,

realize massive red flag and then you're getting these messages. Yeah, it was all a lot. And the entire time I just kept thinking he's going to get bored, this will blow over. Like I initially didn't want to go to the police. I didn't want to make a bigger deal out of it than it needed to be.

I just hoped he would, you know, stop contacting me. And unfortunately, I think it was about two weeks of him pretending to be his parents by the time my, my mum said, this is ridiculous, you need to phone the police. And so you did? Yes. So I started going to, it was North Bell,

fast police. And over the course of a few months, I think I give three or four statements to the police continually updating them. Initially, it was just a case of them checking the numbers, trying to make sure that it was definitely him contacting me. And they issued a warning against him to tell him to stop contacting me. And again, at every stage, obviously, knowing how long it's went on now, it doesn't seem about. But at the time, I kept thinking, this will end, that the next thing that I do will be the thing that stops this. And it just kept escalating. And at the time, I was aware, obviously he told me about this case in Manchester. I made the police aware of it and I was sort of thinking he's told me his broken bail conditions they're

going to be able to do something with that and that'll be the end of it but they weren't able to cross-reference with the case in Manchester I think because of disjointed systems and things like that it was something that I thought should have been a really easy open shut case where you know other women have already come forward this should be easy for me and it's just not what happened it just it just carried on I will read a little of what the police have said to us they say as a victim focused organisation the police service of Northern Ireland remains fully committed to tackling violence against women and girls. Our officers acted quickly to accurately establish the facts around the circumstances of what was reported to us.

This was a complex investigation from the outset. It became clear that Garfield had intended to portray himself as a victim to make the real victim in this case look like an offender. This manipulative behaviour was completely abhorrent and caused even further unnecessary unwanted distress to her. Our officers acted in good faith and on the information available to them at the time. Let's talk about that part. So tell us what happened and I'll read a little more of the statement a little later

from the police. What happened in terms of me getting arrested? In terms of you getting arrested, exactly. This was about three, three and a half, four months into me getting constant harassment and when I say constant, it was incestine. It was constant messages.

He made, I don't know how many different accounts like pretending to be all of his friends, creating these group chats, all aimed at getting me to try and contact him saying, you know, he's mentally unwise, well, he's going to harm himself, he's threatening to do X, Y, Z, and it will all be fixed if she just contacts him. He's waiting outside her flat. He just is dying to talk to her. And so

this has been going on and on and on, and I was so exhausted by it. I'm working at a cafe, I'm doing my uni, and it's coming up to Christmas. I, at this stage, had already went to the university about it. I had started the process of putting a complaint in with them, and they assured me they'd be able to handle it, and I was talking to different people in the abstincheonion to coordinate all that, getting constant phone calls from the police over the course of about a week saying, this guy has come forward, he's accused you of harassment, and this is the warning call to tell you to stop contacting him. So everything that I had went through to get them to do for him, they started doing for me. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is ridiculous.

Like, I've been coming to you guys for months. You have, you know, at least three or four statements from me documenting what this guy has been up to. There's absolutely no way I've been harassing him. I haven't contacted him. Initially, they said that I was sending him threatening messages on Instagram, which at the point where on the day that they ended up arresting me, I was supposed to go into the PlayStation the following day to do a voluntary interview. And instead, he went and gave them another statement with new evidence that they deemed was bad enough that they needed to immediately investigate. So I was coming out of my shift and I was so used to coming on to my shift and having all these missed calls and all these messages. But this time there was calls from the

police and instead what happened was when they interviewed me, it wasn't about these messages. They said They had already established that the messages were falsified because it was so obvious. At which stage I was thinking, well, then why are you investigating anything he's given you? If you've established, he's the guy's giving you fake information. He's obviously giving the runaround. But they were not able to immediately disprove that I phoned him 17 times in the space of 20 minutes, which I was saying he's obviously photoshopped a screenshot. I did not phone him.

So he's obviously doctored evidence. And they said, no, it wasn't a screenshot. He was able to physically scroll through his phone. and what it ended up being was he had downloaded a spoofing app, which I had already reported to the police because when he downloaded that app, I got a verification code to my phone. Right. It shows, I think, so much.

I was reading about this with England and Wales, they talk about an almost 50-fold increase in stalking cases in England and Wales over the past decade, but a lot of it is because the way technology can be used both to track people or to trick people, which I think is what you're talking about here. But I'm just thinking, I mean, Jody, what went through your mind when you were arrested? Well, initially I didn't realize I was being arrested.

Initially, I thought it was just, I'm going to go in and give another statement. And then when we were out to the car, they started reading my rights. So I was like, oh, this isn't just an interview anymore. This is more serious than that I'm getting arrested. And they seized my phone. You laugh about it now, I think, in disbelief still, looking back. Yeah, it's complete disbelief. But, but I mean, what was going through your mind at that time?

Were you scared? Were you afraid of being framed in some way? Yeah, I think I just, shock and disbelief really characterises the whole thing well. I was the entire time just thinking, you know, I just couldn't believe they fell for it. I just thought, you know, how much evidence did you need against him to not take any of this seriously? Just a little bit more from the police statement they talked about how Garfield, your harasser, intended to portray himself as a victim and make the real victim in this case look like. the offender. They went to say, our officers acted in good faith and on the information available

to them at the time. We've been speaking to the victim directly and acknowledged our shortcomings and have provided reassurance to her that we will make great efforts to ensure this does not happen again. Throughout this case, investigators worked with a number of police services across the UK in order to locate Garfield and bring him to justice before the court, which has happened earlier this year. So he has been convicted. But I'm wondering, I don't know, how you feel at the moment you are working with them, which I think is also really interesting as an outcome off this case. Tell me about that.

He was supposed to be sentenced, I think, back in 2024. So bearing of mind how many times I got told he's going to get sentenced today and then something came up that it didn't happen, I kind of, every time my hopes were raised, but by the time he actually got sentenced, I don't think I was actually prepared for it because I was just waiting for it to fall through again. And then there was obviously a court reporter

and the news articles came out and Alison Morris did a bell article in the Belfast Telegraph. And it was her headline. She had asked the PS&I if they would apologize. They went with the party line of, you know, I'd already went to the ombudsman and they'd established that they had a right to investigate. So her headline was something like, you know, police refuses to apologize. So that was what triggered them phoning me.

And they asked me to, I want an apology, which I thought was a weird way to put it. And I said, honestly, no, I didn't ask for an apology. The journalist did to get you to get a good headline, which obviously worked. but I was saying, you know, I don't want an apology. That's just for your own press to make it look like, you know, oh, we're so sorry about it. I was like, it's not actually doing anything for women. The whole reason I ever went to the police was to prevent it from happening to someone else.

And I was saying, you know, if this happened again tomorrow, I imagine the same situation would happen like nothing, nothing has changed. I highlighted the fact that COVID restrictions had affected my case in that I was having to speak to different officers all the time because of close contacts and people not being in. So there was a lack of continuity in my reporting. in terms of who I was speaking to. And then the digital element, like you've highlighted,

all these different factors and the fact there was a previous ongoing case, which wasn't really considered because he hadn't been sentenced for that yet. There was women who had come forward for that case where their own cases were never actually investigated. There was two women who were witnesses for the third victim, who their own cases were never investigated.

I know they felt very, very let down by the police with their cases. So that was what you wanted was to try and help them, and so this wouldn't happen. again, what are you going to do? So initially they were talking about bringing in different people who review their policies and things like that. And they said they will absolutely review the case regardless whether I want to be more involved or not. But at the bare minimum, they want me to come in and record just talking through what happened so they can use your training purposes. Which, yeah, that would be great, just to have something.

It would be amazing if they review their policy and are able to change it. My big sticking point is that I think it's really difficult to deal with these cases in a case-by-case basis because someone like this, obviously knows how to manipulate the system. They've been here before. They've done it already. And there's got to be a way where you can look at the perpetrator without just singling it this way. It's a bit restrictive. One other aspect I just want to get to before I let you go as well.

You also complained to Ulster University. You said you were a student there, that he also became a student there. He were enrolled after meeting you. How do you feel they handled it? Terribly. They were absolutely ridiculous. You know, the police, they might have their reasons for it taking forever. and they've eventually ultimately done what I needed them to do. He's in prison now.

But the university have never done anything to support me in this. Whenever I went to them, they told me at a minimum, they've a zero tolerance policy for this. At a minimum, he'll probably be removed from his accommodation. He'll likely be removed from his course. And in the end, that is not what happened. He ended up after the police had already disproved that evidence, he gave the same falsified evidence to the university.

And they ended up investigating me the same way the police had after it had already been resolved, which I just could not comprehend. My actual course directors were agreeing, giving me extra leniency for, you know, dealing with the arrest and getting my actual coursework in. An Ulster University spokesperson said, our thoughts are with Jodie. Unfortunately, by law, we're unable to disclose any details of specific cases. However, in circumstances like this, we would always apply measures such as precautionary suspension, a ban from all premises and from contacting other Ulster University students. We work hard to create a safe, inclusive and respectful environment.

Harassment and stalking are not tolerated. We take seriously our safeguarding responsibilities and we're fully committed to treating all complaints sensitively and seriously. They would say that. They did ban him from campus at a time when everything was online. So that was absolutely not useful to me at all. And just a slap on the wrist and allowed him to graduate first. And then when all the papers came out about the case of Manchester,

he was described as a first class student with all this potential. And it irked me to no end because they... He could have just not graduated. He could have just not been afforded that. Jodi Morrow speaking to Noola there. And if you've been affected by any of the issues raised, you can find links of information and support on the BBC Action Line website. Spring has sprung.

The mornings and evenings are light, and maybe you have a spring in your step. Well, on Easter Monday, we devoted the entire program to light. How does light inspire us and motivators? And how can we harness it and use it to our advantage? Gp Dr Rada Modgill joined Nikki Bady to talk about why we feel differently when there's more light. We talk a lot about exercise and diet when we talk about health, but we don't talk much about light. But light is just as essential as those two things for our health and well-being for many different reasons,

but it's all chemically based or hormonally based. So when we get that natural daylight and it hits the back of our eyes, we have things called photoreceptors. They pick up that natural light. They then signal to our brain that actually should release something called serotonin. So that's a neurotransmitter, a chemical, which boosts our mood, it helps us feel better. It's the same thing we get when we exercise. We also get a reset of our circadian rhythm. So we have an internal clock, a master clock, if you like, called the supra-chiasmatic nucleus, which is in our brain.

And when we get natural daylight, or when the daylight hours increase, that resets our body clock. And that body clock basically impacts when we go to sleep, how much melatonin, a sleep hormone is released and when it's released, and how alert we are. And also, when it's spring, we feel like we want to get outside more, we want to exercise more, which boosts our dopamine and serotonin, and we want to connect socially with people. But is it the boost in the serotonin that makes us want to get up and do things earlier? Does it work both way around? It's probably a bit of both, actually, is that psychological association, I think,

of, like you said, spring comes, all of us, myself included. I think I always have a moment every year where I'm outside, the sun is on my face and I just think, oh, thank goodness. A bit like you said, you know, we've got through winter, in autumn, thank goodness. We've done really well. We've survived that. And now hopefully the months ahead will be easier for us. And does it, apart from what it does in terms of chemicals in the brain, does it have an impact physically on our bodies? And what changes within us physically? So that part in our brain is called the hypothalamic and pituitary axis. And that axis, all that

kind of pathway in our brain, which responds to light, actually produces a lot of the hormones and chemicals which regulates how fast our body works, our hormone levels, and all. kinds of ways. So that HPA axis, we call it, is absolutely vital to every single other working bits within our system and our body entirely. So physically and mentally, it's absolutely crucial. We asked you to share any morning rituals you might have that tie into your relationship with light. And I have a WhatsApp message here that says, I'm an Ashtanga yoga teacher and I teach 6.15am to 8.15 a.m. Sunrises in our studio during the practice time and I love seeing the arrival of the day supporting the well-being and spiritual practice of others.

There's a beautiful community in such a positive, uplifting way to start the day. So rather I'm wondering whether that sunrise yoga and sense of well-being is something to do with the body's circadian rhythms. It's absolutely about when we first wake up in the morning, we get an increasing cortisol. We normally think that's a bad thing. But we need that first thing in the morning to get up to raise our blood pressure so that we can actually function during the day. So the natural daylight actually helps that cortisol level to boost and to rise up.

And interestingly, from up that person a message in about, the most important time we can get natural daylight is in the first hour of waking. It's the most effective time to get it. Assuming you wake up in the morning. Yes, that's true. Hopefully we do. Although, yeah, some night shift workers don't. And I've done night shifts and felt the impact of that chronically on my health as well as everyone else.

But it's that first hour of waking that is so important to get that natural daylight. And actually to get outside and to. and to benefit from that. Well, if you are doing yoga, if you're a yogi or a yogini, one of the most important starts to yoga practice is Suria Namaskar, which in Sanskrit means salute the sun. Yeah. So it's obviously something that for millennia people have been doing.

Absolutely. And again, we forget, don't we? I mean, nowadays we have artificial light. We can turn on a light any time we want to. We forget to work with the autumn and winter to actually say, well, is this a time of hibernation? And should I be listening to my body? Because our body's respond to that.

So we can't fight our bodies. So in what ways might women be specifically affected? So interestingly, there was a study published in Nature in 2024, which showed that men actually get 52% more exposure to bright light than women. And that actually starts in early childhood and continues into adulthood. And most of those increased hours, if you like, are during the working week. Which potentially then means if we don't as women take note of that and actually try to get do our best to get exposure to light, we're going to be more at risk of low mood, SAD, seasonal

effective disorder, for example, low energy levels, potentially our hormone levels being affected. The second thing that's been found is that women are much more sensitive or much more impacted by bright light or artificial light in the evening. So this is the kind of light we might get from our devices in the evening or artificial light. Their melatonin or their sleep hormone levels are more likely to be lowered and that means that they'll have potentially greater risk of sleep disruption. Well, there are two elements. The actual light and the impact the light has on us. And the, you know, if you have a lack of light, that is presumably what will lead to seasonal effective disorder or sad syndrome, I think some people call it, don't they?

So how many people suffer with that? So it's commoner than we think, but it's very, very difficult to pick up. And that is because it's a seasonal trend, basically. And we need to kind of look at that over a period of time. So SAD, it presents with the similar symptoms of depression. So low mood, not enjoying things, having low energy, being more irritable, for example. But the difference with this is those symptoms only appear in those winter months when we have less natural daylight. And they then get better or improve during the spring and summer. So, you know, sometimes it can take a year, two years to see that pattern very clearly. But it's very important to be aware that that does exist. And you can also get something called reverse SAD.

which is where you get, some people get depressive symptoms during the spring and summer. And I understand that the NHS doesn't actually advise that we use those lamps that can help it. But what's your opinion on that? So at the moment, there's currently no evidence that they're effective. However, they are things that people can try. And if they find useful and helpful, then that's absolutely fine. You just need to be careful with them because you need to make sure, of see, that they're the right strength of light for a start.

You don't have any conditions where you're light sensitive, any certain eye conditions that could call. cause problems. Dr. Rather, Modgill there talking to Nikki Baehy. And if you want to listen back to that entire program dedicated to light, go to the 6th of April episode of Woman's Hour on BBC Sounds. Now the largest display of Queen Elizabeth I second's clothing ever to be staged has just opened at the King's Gallery in Buckingham Palace. The exhibition called Elizabeth II, her life in style, marks the centenary of the late Queen's birth and includes around 200 items, about half of which are on display for the very first time. It charts clothing worn in all 10 decades of Queen Elizabeth's life, many designed by Norman Hartnell,

and it spans the full breadth of her wardrobe, from mature evening wear to impeccably tailored off-duty clothing. Well, ahead of the exhibition at opening to the public, I left Woman's Hour HQ and popped into Buckingham Palace to meet its curator, Caroline de Gito, to take a tour. So, Caroline, we've just walked in, and what is the... the dress that you've chosen to begin the exhibition with. I mean, it's beautiful, but you describe it. Well, this is a beautiful heartnal, very elegant evening dress made of gold lame, overlaid with lace, which has been re-embroidered in gold thread. And it's a piece I chose as the first thing that people will see when they come into the exhibition, because I think it sums up everything about the skill and the creativity of London Couture in the 1950s. When did she wear it? She wore a

in New Zealand in 1953 quite early on in the post-coronation Commonwealth Tour and we have sensational images of her wearing it. She looks young, glamorous and as I say it sums up that atmosphere and that opulence but also

the positivity and the creativity around couture at the height of London Couture when it was really rivaling Paris. And it says Queen, it says regal, it says fairy tale I mean it's the dream dress. Absolutely stunning. Perfect piece to start with. I'm in. How much choice did she have? How much say did she have in what she wore?

Oh, I think for the moment of becoming an adult, she chose everything herself. I think when she was younger, there was a lot of influence from her mother, from Queen Mary, and even from her father, who expressed views on certain things that she wore. Did she have a team and how big were they? Well, really at this point, she would have her own dresser and obviously a team of personal staff around her, but it was quite small. And I think what this exhibition is aiming to show is that she made her own choices and she was the one communicating with the designers. She made the decisions. And that's borne out by the wonderful archive material that we have, correspondence, invoices, sketches where she's marked them up, yes or no. and so we really see her at the absolute centre of making those choices herself and it was a very strong relationship that she had with those couturiers.

It was very close and very personal. Okay. Goodness me. Is this the wedding dress? Yes. The actual, I know this is a great, we are here looking at her actual girls. You almost can't believe it. Well, this is one of Hartnell's great masterpieces, of course, from November 1947.

and he was originally asked to submit designs by Queen Elizabeth, so by the Princess's mother. And he took as his inspiration Botticelli's painting of primavera. He states this in his autobiography. And the idea of rebirth and renewal after the hardship of the Second World War seemed entirely appropriate. Of course, clothes rationing was still in force. So the government granted Princess Elizabeth 200 extra clothes coupons. And Hartnall talks about the struggles he has. had, finding all the different materials, you see these beautiful pearl beads, the crystals and so on.

It was really difficult to get hold of these things at the time. And the main feature really of the dress is this extraordinary embroidery, which features the Tudor Rose, very appropriate, orange blossom, and also ears of wheat signifying plenty and happiness and so on. And Hartnell describes how he sort of laid out the embroidery like a florist's bouquet. And I think that gives you a real impression. Where has it been kept all this time? So like the rest of the clothing, it was kept personally by the Queen her entire life. And then after her death, the decision was made to pass her whole archive to the Royal Collection for us to care for and to share. But which wardrobe? She had so many homes. Do we know where this one was? Quite big wardrobes. Most of her wardrobe was

kept in Bucking Palace. Yeah. I'm smiling because I'm thinking about my mum who would absolutely love It's almost Indian in its design with the amount of intricate. Yes, but like sort of Zardosie embroidery. Actually, we have a dress through here which sort of replicates that technique. Oh, let's see. Oh, my goodness. Oh, showstoppers. These are real showstoppers.

There are quite a few showstoppers. There are quite a few. I mean, the whole exodus is said. So I chose these pieces because they represent the closest we can replicate of a kind of capsule wardrobe created for one of the Queen's tours. And in this instance, it was her. her tour to India, Pakistan and Nepal in 1961, which is a very long tour, sort of seven weeks, something like that. So you can imagine how many decisions she had to make about her clothing

and what was going to be appropriate. And this is really where diplomacy starts to play its role. And of course, she was a past master at using her clothing to pay compliments to the country that was hosting her and in a way to deliver those kind of subtle messages. And it was really yeah this wonderful tool to convey those sentiments before she even spoke or had those meetings or dinner or you know state banquets and so on and I think that's something that she developed to a level that had never ever really been done before it's so much pressure I think most women who enjoy wearing clothes and think about what they put on before they enter any room because you know it's going to make a statement and people are going to judge you on it. I mean, the queen and the

statements that she's making with her outfits and everybody was looking at her and judging her and trying to deduce what she was trying to say. She was always in the public eye from the moment she was born until the end of her life. And that must surely have been in her head all the time, thinking about how am I going to look? How am I going to present myself for this occasion or or that occasion. And I think this is where that very close working relationship between her and the designer was really key. And it was clear that it was a two-way input. It was a two-way relationship. And it wasn't just the designer saying, here you are, here's a sketch, do you like it or not? And here are all the sketches pretty much from this particular tour wardrobe. This is the one for

this beautiful gold and pearl dress. And we were talking about that influence of Sardosie embroidery, which of course you see that so strongly, I think, in these pieces. And this was worn at the state banquet on arrival in India. And the central motif is the lotus flower. So again, the thought process is very, very carefully thought through. Who were some of her favourite designers? Who did she go to time and time again? Well, Hartnell's absolutely key.

It has to be said. He had begun this relationship in design terms with Queen Elizabeth. And so in a sense, she inherited him from her mother. but I think he produced really his finest work for her. And it's funny, one I think editor of Vogue at one point sort of wrote that he's in a royal cul-de-sac. He was a great designer, there's no doubt about it. But of course, designing for the Queen requires certain constraints, restraints,

and this sense of never putting a foot wrong, I think, always played quite heavily on his mind. How much fun did you have looking through the archive? How hard was it to pick? Very, almost impossible. But obviously there are key pieces that need to be included. And I think we're looking at perhaps a few of those here. And then there are the ceremonial pieces. Yes.

And you might think to yourself, well, what's that actually got to do with fashion? But it really does. It is another element of this archive. And there are those fashion moments. So, for example, this amazing mantle of the Order of the British Empire. which is in rose satin and dove grey silk. This design was actually commissioned by the Queen in 1960. She approached design students at the Royal College of Art.

They were all asked to submit designs. She chose this one, which was actually the design of Marianne Foll, who went on to form a really successful, quite groovy design partnership with Sally Tuffin, and they were on Carnaby Street and the sort of swinging 60s and 70s. And so I just love this dichotomy between something that's so formal with their general output as it turned out, which was very cutting edge. And I like that she was championing young talent as well. By the way, if you want to know how

exclusive our access is, behind me, we still have this outfit being steamed. What's your name? Hi, I'm Cecilia Oliver. Cecilia, how much pressure are you under right now steaming this ceremonial gown? It is quite a lot of pressure, but it's also a complete honor to be working so closely with these incredible pieces. So we've got to talk about this, next room that we've stepped into because this is the sort of, this is the queen we think about when she's off duty, a lot of tartan and tweed. A lot of tweed and tartan. And I think that's, that's great because it means that she recognised that these traditional production techniques, these traditional fabrics, but also that tailoring was so important. Tailoring's really the bedrock

of British couture. And so it's wonderful because in here you have a real mixture. You have some couture pieces and then you have just off the peg things. So here's her burberry rain hood for when she's out riding so all very practical her riding boots and then you have just exquisite tailoring and that look I think we just can close our eyes and visualise her with her headscarf and her boots or her brogues

that you see here she was a country girl wasn't she she loved her horses she loved being outdoors and that's when she was happiest yes absolutely I think that story really comes through in these pieces so all these items we're looking at now were they made specifically for the Queen, did she ever buy off the peg? Oh yes, she did.

She bought off the peg. I'll show you an example over here. Okay. Oh, this is great. So this is a suede jacket used, as you say, for those off-duty moments, originally purchased in the 1960s and worn and worn and worn, like so many of the Queen's clothes, constantly re-wearing. Some outfits were worn more than 20 times,

and that could be over several decades. See, there's something to be said for that. Even the Queen would have key pieces that she kept. and war always over the decades? Absolutely. That was really important. I think maybe it goes back to that growing up during the war, make do and mend, things being passed on to her younger sister, and we have lots of invoices for repairs.

And I think the Queen really thought that clothes should last. You know, if they were well made and she would continue to wear them, then they should remain in good condition. And headscarves? Headscalfs are very important. You will have seen on the mannequin there. we have one tied on in the way that she had her own unique way of tying her scarf, always in a bow at the chin, which is not what most people do.

They do a knot. And that's something that's completely unique to her. Now we're seeing it in the flesh and all together. You can see how she's changed with the times. The colours are really bright. And actually she's making real statements with each outfit. So where did that thought come from that she wasn't as stylish as her younger sister? I think it was just something that was propagated almost at,

at the time. There have been various books written about her style and there's always that comparison. I personally think it's a bit unfair because I've had the great privilege of looking at all this clothing and I see someone who was incredibly stylish. Is it something quite magical about seeing these outfits in the flesh knowing who wore them and having seen some of them worn? Definitely and I you know the process has been for me just so I wouldn't say emotional but there's definitely emotion there because we all have our memories of the Queen, whatever that might be. But to see the piece and connect that to the memory, I think, is something very special. Curator Caroline DeGito and Elizabeth II, her life in style is on at the King's Gallery, Buckingham Palace until the 18th of October.

And remember, you can enjoy a woman's hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Now, here's a question for you. Do you think having children makes you happy? A new study from the University of Nicassia in Cyprus suggests not. It drew on data from more than 5,000 participants in 10 countries, including Britain, and concluded that there is no strong evidence that parenthood leads to a measurable increase in positive emotions. In a moment, two mothers discuss those findings, but I do want to acknowledge some people would love to be a parent,

but it hasn't or it isn't yet working out for them. And for some mums, life with a child can be extremely challenging for a multitude of reasons. There are all sorts of experiences out there. Well, to discuss whether having kids makes you happy, Nula spoke to Eco Haruna, a family photographer and former presenter of Parentland, the BBC World Services podcast, and Ella Wheelan, author of What Women Want. Was Ella surprised by the findings that there is not a measurable difference between parents and non-parents when it comes to happiness? No surprise.

No, depressed, yes. I think it's a problem. And that's because when you break down the research, they section it into emotional well-being or meaningfulness, purplefulness. Do your children fill you with a sense that you're doing something meaningful? And so the happiness breaks down into different sort of sections. And from almost all of it, the answer was,

no, they haven't made too much difference in my life. And I think, you know, children haven't changed. Children are jolly, happy beings most of the time. I mean, actually, they are even when they're doing terrible things. You know, it's like my son routinely has puked at 3 o'clock in the morning in his bed and then laughed about it. You know, they're undeniably jolly. So it's not children that have changed. I think we've changed as adults and our approach to parenting,

which I think we really should put in like, I'm doing scare quotes in the studio here, because the word parenting is only a very new thing. You know, it used to be that you'd raise children. And now there's this thing called parenting. which I think is probably what's putting in the block on people's emotional well-being rather than the kids themselves. It's so interesting. I will just read a line that you wrote for our listeners.

Perhaps these rather depressing results about parents' happiness tell us something about our particularly miserablest attitude to parenting. And so you lay it on the line there. What do you think, ego, has been a parent today more of a struggle? I think expectations is the key here. culturally myself, it wasn't a question whether I was going to be a parent or not. It was just a normal. You just did.

It was your duty to continue the lineage. So there wasn't a thought for me. It was just happy. Duty is such an interesting word too, though, because I think sometimes we approach duty somewhat differently than we do something that we're excited to do, for example. I mean, it can be both, couldn't it? Oh, absolutely. I mean, if you're raised to feel that family is part of what you do, who you are, it's natural. I don't think for me personally it was about there wasn't a consideration as to whether it would make me happy or not.

It's something that was going to be sort of wholesome. So Ella touched on there, the types of happiness. And I found this really interesting in the study. So there's two, hedonic, which is the day-to-day happiness. that you might get, for example. And then the other was you demonic, which is instead a life's purpose. So a different sort of happiness.

Kind of what you're talking about there, Epo, right? Exactly. So for me, it was always going to be this, like, it's part of your entire purpose. It's not the one thing. It's that and everything else that makes you human. And did you think, and I'll come to you, L on this in a moment, that it could only be a child that would give that,

you demonic happiness, well-being, or could it be something else, like a job or friendship or whatever it might be? I think it can be more than children. Children certainly contribute to it, but I think it can be more. And it is, even as a parent of two children now, I'm a whole person doing so many different things.

So yes, I think... Can I just say how revolutionary this idea, this portrayal that Eco is putting forward is because the idea that children have a purpose, but it's just this thing that you do. It's a natural thing. It's not overthought. It's so unusual to hear that today

because, and it's so important to put it that way, because I think a lot of the time now, prospective parents, certainly women I talk to, think that it's this thing that you're going to, I mean, of course it's this big monumental thing that you do, but it seems like an insurmountable challenge to a lot of people, that's what I was trying to get out in the article, because despite the fact that raising children has become easier

in terms of like, we've got washing machines, disposable nappies, formula, Like, you know, technically it's a lot easier than our mothers and our grandmothers had. But emotionally, psychologically, now it's this, this fraught thing. You've got to do the gentle parenting. You've got to do the exclusive breastfeeding. You've got to, you know, it's just crazy. It seems crazy to, I think, a lot of women.

And in fact, it isn't and it doesn't have to be. I think actually as parents, we need to be cheerleading for what raising children should and could be, which is, you know, yeah, it's going to be hard. Yeah, you're going to work harder than you have a hard. you're going to worry more than you ever had. You're never going to sleep properly again. But it doesn't matter because that baby's going to grab your finger and the world is going to be a better place.

But I think we need to start talking more positively about parenting because whether it's falling birth rates or the rest of it, people being worried, people being overwrought. We're not putting forward the positive view of why children matter and are great. Which is different perhaps, Ella, to them making you happy. if that's... They make you miserable a lot of the time. I mean, really genuinely, I think the hard work for me

isn't the thing that matters. It's the worry that gets to me. You know, worrying, do they have friends? Worrying, are they going to get sick? Are there, all that stuff? It's, you know, it really does make you unhappy. But it's in the brown. It's in a balance of the things that do matter

because, like I said, you know, the joke about puking the night time, children just make you think about something other than yourself. And I was thinking, someone said to me, you know, what does love mean? What does it really mean? It means when you care more about someone else than yourself. And that's the thing.

And that can happen as a parent, but it can happen as a non-parent as well. Some messages, quite a few of them have come in. Let's go through a few. It's not the job of a child to make their parent or parents happy. That belief is harmful, leading to children thinking they're responsible for their parents' happiness. This is not their job. So says Liz. I absolutely agree with that.

I think it's a huge burden to put on a child to say that they complete you and you're nothing else without them. That's immense pressure. And that could end up being an adult who has so much expectations put on them. It really shapes who they are. I think it's important as a parent to make sure that you are fulfilling other sides of yourself so that you don't feel like the children are your be all and end on. Another, children don't make you happy. They only fulfill you, which is interesting, kind of as a different dimension. I find it frightening how many people have children in pursuit of happiness. Having said that, I am an artist. So maybe I have the privilege of another creative outlet.

Coming back to the study, they did say women with children reported a slightly greater sense of finding meaning in life on average, rather than those without children. However, the difference was small. When the 10 countries included in the data were separated out, the result was found only to be statistically meaningful for mothers from Greece. But maybe historically it was harder for women to find that life's purpose, outside the home. Yes. And I mean, I actually think now we're sort of doing a one at 360 because now, you know, whether I mentioned exclusive breastfeeding or gentle parenting or the

rest of that, I think there's so much pressure to do intensive parenting, particularly for women. And that's not me sort of saying, oh, you should neglect your kids and they don't mean anything, you don't spend any time with them. But there's some balance here, please. Because I think now women are expected to just once they have the baby, be with them 24-7. And that will make you unhappy because you ask you should still be your own woman. But I think the thing that's the F word, I think that's missing in all of this is just fun. We suck. So much of this discussion about parenting misses the fact that you have in your day so many things to do, brush their teeth, get them fed, get them to bed, get their nap. The fun thing is the thing where you just, it's the free part,

where you don't have anyone telling you what to do. At the moment, we have NHS adverts and bus stops telling you to play with your children because it helps their brain synapses. We've got government releasing a statement two weeks ago saying no screens at meal times to the sound of every parent in the world ha ha ha ha, like scoffing at how ridiculous that is. Relax. I think we just got to take the pressure off parents and remember that it's fun. It's meant to be fun. That's right. And I think just to add to that, part of the things that personally have made parenting hard is all the structures, the systems that just aren't in place for me. So say for example, the cost of childcare, you know, my losing that village.

Well, when you use the word raise, actually, Ella, that makes me think village. Yes. Eco for you too? For me, absolutely. And I think if I could go back and do it again, I'd really consider the idea of the village more because I live here without my family. So that makes raising the children so much harder. In a way, people going for where the jobs are, etc. Exactly.

I can bring up these issues. I've got two children, age three and six. We've a lot of friends without children. My opinion is that with children, the highs are higher, the lows are lower, the lows are lower. There's less limitations for child-free couples who do things to make them happy in any given moment. Harder when you have children to take care of, but the sheer joy of certain moments of raising a child cannot be matched. So says one. I want to come to BBC investigation last month. Both of you might have seen this. It highlighted some women who regretted being mothers.

It talked about some of the negatives. There are so many different experiences, but in no particular order. The impact on your body, your finances, your freedom, your sexual relationship. your social relationships, the type of car you have if you're looking enough to own one, your own mental health, this is a list. Some people, some women, felt cheated, thinking that motherhood was going to be one thing and ended up with a completely different reality. Do you think they can voice this, ECO? A lot of people stay anonymous.

I don't think they can. Because you imagine saying that and your child finds something like that. But the truth is... But do you think it's just about the child or do you think it's... I think it's so much more than that. I think it's... expectations, you miss what you had before. But if you're going into this knowing what the challenges, potential challenges are,

then you manage your expectations. It's about balance, as you said earlier, Ella. And I think a lot of people just don't, they sort of miss that perspective. Yeah, I mean, I started off by saying, I think we need to really cheerlead for parenting, but we do also have to manage people's expectations. It is a complete change of your, of everything to do with your life. And you will eventually get back to some kind of, you know, being able to go out for a coffee when you want or things like that,

when they're in school, but not for a good while. I mean, for a while, you're in the trenches. And exactly like your caller said, the highs are higher, the lows are lower. But I think, and this is where I'm going to sound like a real mean harridan here, I do think that there's a problem with a young generation having a very precious, perhaps sort of narcissistic sense of what emotional well-being means in terms of, you know,

no, you're not going to be able to go and do your mental health walk or you have your facial or do your yoga, or even maybe text your friends back as much. But maybe you can. It's just different. Maybe they want a different life. I mean, they have a choice. They have a choice.

But if you want to become a parent, you're thinking some of those things are going to have to go. Well, listen, I think the best advice I give to anyone is, you know, it happens by accident to people and they love it and that's part of life. But if you can plan, have your fun, like I did in my 20s, have a good time. And then when you're sick of going out and partying and all the rest of it, have the kids because it's just a different part of your life.

And then, yeah, when you're four, you can get hop back on the horse, as I look forward to doing when mine get beyond the sleepless life. You can do that and still regret it. You can do all that and still regret it because there are so many issues that could come up with parenting. Say, for example, having a child with special needs, you cannot possibly account for that. So then what do you do?

As a society, be sympathetic. That's when it comes back to the village thing, be sympathetic to that. But I just do think that there's this thing now where there's a generation who wants to have their cake and eat it, which is a good aspiration to have. But I think there's just a reluctance to admit that having children means sacrificing your own emotional well-being and all the rest of it, but in pursuit of something.

And it's hard to talk to women about a social project of childbearing because that's historically been very unfair to us. It's always been our role to only do this. But I do think we need to tell women why it's a good thing, and men, but I'm more interested in women. The message is... Why it's a good thing to have kids. Ella Weillan and Eco Haruna speaking to Nula there.

Now, Indigo Rain has been part of a landmark moment for global music culture, bringing the godfathers of Drum and Bass, Fabio and Groove Rider, to headline the first ever Jungle and Drum and Bass Festival in East Africa, called Neurofest, and it took place in Kenya. Indigo is one of the first female emcees in Jungle Music, formerly known as Lady MC. She was born in prison, grew up around gang culture, and found her voice in dance music,

became an award-winning MC and artist, who turned disadvantage on its head. She's also the founder of the Young Urban Arts Foundation, helping thousands of young people through music. While she's now taking that work global through a new cultural exchange in Kenya, I started by asking her why she wanted to organise the festival. I've been living between here and Kenya for about six years,

sort of half here, half there. And when I got there, there was just no jungle drum and bass, and, you know, I can't live my life with jungle drum and bass. Same. Right. And yeah, I mean, just as part of my journey there, I just had a vision and it just started to grow and grow. And it was very important to me to set the foundation, to bring the founders of the music, to set the music there because it's just emerging. It's really new.

The community is really small, but it's growing. I want to turn to your journey now into music, because it is extraordinary and it is really inspiring. And you've been really honest. about how you came to find emceeing. Tell us about your experience growing up, because there'll be lots of people listening who won't have heard your story. Sure.

Like thousands and hundreds of thousands of other young people in the UK or around the world, you know, when you grow up around disadvantaged, and I put that in brackets, you know, my mum was incredible. She worked so many jobs. You know, my dad was a bit of a lost soul. He was an alcoholic.

He was quite an abusive man. So sort of being brought up. in that household, like many other young people across the capital, it has consequences and has impacts. So I found my passion and my outlet through music, and it happened to be jungle music when I was like 14, 15 years old. Why? What did that do? Tell me when you stepped into that first club

or when the first time you heard the music, what was the experience? It felt like home, and it felt like there was just so many misfits in one space. And it was just a place where there was no judgment. And there was just such a mix of everything, a mix of socioeconomic backgrounds. There was a mix of races. It was just a place where there was no judgment. It's one thing finding the music, because same, that's my community as well back in the mid-90s. But then to actually forge a path as a MC in that space, I mean, that takes tenacity.

It did. When you're at home and you're not feeling like you have a voice or you feel quite helpless. and then you're able to have an opportunity to be heard and to be seen and to be celebrated in that way. That's what Jungle Music gave to me. That's what MC and did for me. That's what being on that stage did for me as a teenager. Let's have a listen to your track, Feel It, Soul. Oh, thank you.

So much soul. So beautiful. Oh, I've grown into that. Well, let's talk about growth. Because lots of people might know you, and I knew you as Lady MC. Yeah. And I'm just so intrigued to hear about this. rebrand. Rebrand as indigo rain.

Yeah, I mean, look, I became Lady MC, quite a traumatised kid, right? That's who she was, you know, back in the 90s. And Lady MC was quite, it was quite prolific. The name meant something there wasn't a lot of females around at the time. There's so many now. And I think that as I've gone through my own spiritual journey as well, and the way I've evolved as a woman, as a leader, as a community spaceholder, as a cultural leader.

and everything that I've gone through, I needed a rebirth and a rebrand, and that's why I did it. And, you know, I'm not just an MC, you see. I'm, you know, I'm more than an MC. So it was, that had to change. So that's what happened. I think it was about three years ago now.

It was quite hard. Still struggle with being recognised with this new name. Where did the name come from? Indigo, well, indigo has many shades. I'm an indigo child, if you want to go down that road. And, yeah, indigo has many shades, different shades of indigo. So there's many shades of me.

There's different parts of me. And I just love the colour. I've always been so drawn to Indigo. And Rain, R-E-I-G-N, speaks for itself. We've got to talk about Young Urban Arts Foundation. Please, yeah. This is something that you set up a long time ago because you recognised that creativity can really change people's lives.

But you did something very different. You kind of went to communities. Tell me more. Yeah, 17th year now. Congratulations. What I recognised about my life is that nothing was by coincidence. And I was never a victim of anything, you know, where I was born, the experience I had up growing up, it was all part of the tapestry of what I was about to create with Young Open Arts Foundation.

So we're a registered charity. We have got a double-decker studio bus, which we take into communities where there's little or nothing for young people to engage in. So we rock up this double-decker bus teaching young people the art of music production, lyric writing, songwriting, podcasting, vocal recording. And we take that bus into council estates and areas of deprivation. And we just rock up and we keep young people safe from any areas of deprivation young people are at risk. They're at risk of mental health crises, being groomed into gangs. There's so many risks that they face just being in those areas of deprivation alone. So by us taking that bus in there,

what we're essentially doing is giving them a lifeline to help them build their skills, their confidence, their wellbeing, and more importantly, give them access into opportunities into our aftercare programmes. And how important is it that it's somebody who knows their world and knows their experience that's talking to them? I think that's the only way Young Urban Arts Foundation could have been created and exist,

and exists to this day, because I was one of those young people where music literally saved my life. Go on. Tell me more. Yeah, when I was in my late, teens, I got involved in some crime and I got involved in a group that I now later know is called a gang and I was stuck in that and it was only when I went to New York. I got picked up by an artist when I went to the Miami Music Conference and they said, look, just come to New York, get out.

And I went to live in New York for I think a year and a half and that changed my life. And it was because I had a mentor, it's because I had somebody that believed in me and someone that saw that actually, she's just a traumatized kid. You know, and when I came back from that trip, that's when my life changed. You know, that's when I realized that music saved my life. And it was that moment. And I think I was about 20 years old. And not only are you going into communities and trying to transform young people's lives through music and creativity.

Are there more women on the scene now? Oh, my gosh. There is a beautiful array of amazing talent now. It's incredible to see. I'm really fascinated by your story because it takes a lot. I always think the people who get out who can sort of remove themselves. I mean, you mentioned somebody said to you, come to America, gave you the opportunity. But what would you say to younger you?

It's interesting because had someone said something to the younger me, I wouldn't have created what I've created. So it's, you know, I had to experience all the things that I had to experience. But what I would say to the young people that we work with now, it really is important to be yourself. You know, it's really, and I think even understanding who we are. So find a mentor. Finds a trusted adult. Find someone that believes in you and has your best interests at heart

and listen to that person with all your heart. The inspiring indigo rain talking to me on Thursday's programme. That's it from me. On Monday's programme, as the Nursing and Midwifery Council declares racism in maternity and national emergency, we explore what can be done to solve this ongoing issue. And we'll also be looking at the legacy of Dame Paula Rago

as a new exhibition of her drawings goes on show. using her work to explore the many issues facing women. She's been described as one of the most important artists of the 20th century. So don't forget to join Nula at 10. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Johnny Diamond and I'm the presenter of the Radio 4 series. How did we get here, Israel and the Palestinians. We explore the complicated backstory of that Middle East conflict

as the region endures another wider war. Through conversations with experts, with the voice, variety of perspectives. We travel back through the centuries to examine the history of the land that's now so contested between Arabs and Israelis, and we try and understand the past that's brought us to such a present. How did we get here? Israel and the Palestinians. Listen on BBC sounds.