Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: stalking, long-term relationships and why they fail, women boxers, the clitoris, Andrea Riseborough

Episode Date: November 26, 2022

To mark ten years since stalking became a specific crime in England and Wales, we speak to crime reporter and presenter Isla Traquair. In her day job Isla is used to confronting murderers and travelling to dangerous places but it was in a quiet village in Wiltshire where her stalking ordeal took place. In August this year Isla's neighbour, Jonathan Barrett, was found guilty of stalking. This followed what Isla calls a 7 month period of terror from March to September 2021.99% of all boxers are men and it remains a male dominated sport in all areas. We speak to Susannah Schofield OBE who hopes to harness the growing appetite for women’s sport with the recent successes of women’s football and rugby by convincing the BBC to show women's boxing.New research shows the clitoris actually has over 10,000 nerve endings. 20% more than the previously suggested amount from studies on cows in the 1970s. Does this increase in number matter? We ask science journalist Rachel E Gross and Dr Brooke Vandermolen, an NHS Obstetrics and Gynaecology Registrar.Why is it that we so often struggle or fail in long term relationships? We’re talking instead about unremarkable everyday behaviours that help to end a marriage. We speak to couples therapist, Joanna Harrison and relationship coach, Matthew Fray.The actor Andrea Riseborough tells us about playing Mrs Wormwood in the new Matilda the Musical film. The film is an adaptation of Tim Minchin’s hit West End musical of the same name. It stars Emma Thompson as Mrs Trunchbull, Lashana Lynch as Miss Honey and Stephen Graham as Mr Wormwood. She talks about playing one of Roald Dahl’s most famous characters and her life off camera, meeting Patti Smith for the first time.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Surya Elango Editor: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. I'm Anita Rani and I'm going to take you through our curated best bits from the week just gone. Coming up, what a year it's been for women's rugby and football. But why are we still not seeing more women in the boxing ring? New research shows the clitoris actually has over 10,000 nerves, 20% more than the previously suggested amount from studies done on cows in the 1970s. But does this increase in number matter? And why are we only finding out about it now?

Two thirds of divorces in the UK are initiated by women. Why is it that we so often struggle or fail in long term relationships? And finally, you won't want to miss this. One BAFTA nominated actor on being a table for Patti Smith and Madonna. Andrea Risborough talks to us about playing Mrs Wormwood in Matilda the musical and so much more. Put the kettle on. But first, we kicked the week off with a special programme covering a reality we wish wasn't the case for those who are affected, the majority of whom

are women. I'm talking about stalking, because this week marks 10 years since stalking became a specific crime in England and Wales. The Prime Minister in 2012 at the time of this legal change, David Cameron, described stalking as an abhorrent crime which makes life a living hell for the victims. It certainly is a unique and dangerous crime defined as behaviour that is fixated, obsessive, unwanted and repeated. The change in the law saw new powers for law enforcement and training rolled out across the Crown Prosecution Service and police. But has it worked? What has changed in the last decade? As part of the special programme, we spoke to ITV news anchor and true crime podcast host

Isla Traquair, herself a victim of stalking and her stalker convicted earlier this year. In her day job, Isla is used to confronting murderers and travelling to dangerous places. But it was in a quiet village in Wiltshire where her stalking ordeal took place, which has seen her forced from her home, living in fear and out of a suitcase. In August this year, Isla's next-door neighbour, Jonathan Barrett, was found guilty of stalking. This followed what Isla calls a seven-month period of terror from March to September 2021. Mr Barrett was ordered to do 300 hours of community service and pay £715 in costs.

He's also been handed a restraining order not to contact Isla or to enter or lick into her property for one year. But he wasn't sent to prison. Emma started by asking Isla how difficult it is to talk about being a victim of stalking. You know, I'm a journalist. I work in radio as well. And it's tough. And it's the first time I've talked about something that's really personal.

And it's probably one of the worst things that's ever happened to me. But if my story can help even one person, then it's worth it. I know that's a big driving force for you today. And I also appreciate that there isn't one event or one moment where you could say this is stalking. It's quite a unique crime, isn't it? It's a ramping up of incidents. And to come to your story, I understand there was unusual behaviour before you'd even moved into the property. And then one day your neighbour appeared in your house completely unannounced offering you a sandwich? Yeah yeah so there was a lot of

things something happened actually when I had the sale agreed but hadn't moved in and he blocked my car in I was with my mum who's disabled and had a walking aid and he insisted I had to go down to the house and I said you know my mum needs to get in the car and he accused me of trespassing in his garden and letting my dog fall and I said I haven't got the keys needs to get in the car and he accused me of trespassing in his garden and letting my dog fall. And I said, I haven't got the keys yet. I can't get into my own garden. So that bothered me. That was a red flag.

But a couple of weeks later, I went and knocked on the door and his partner is, well, I thought wife, long-term partner answered the door. I was appeased. He came round, he apologised. He said, I've never done anything aggressive like that before. And that seemed to be it. And that was the October.

And then the January, I got the keys. I was quite pleased that he was being friendly. But then it built and built and built to kind of some uncomfortable comments, unnatural interest, always seeming to be there. Wherever I came out the front or the back, he would be there. So I sort of gradually tried to withdraw. And that's when more and more alarming things happen. You mentioned the sandwich.

I mean, to some people, it might sound silly might sound silly like oh your neighbor made you a sandwich but in the context of what had been going on he'd climbed over the back wall entered my home through the conservatory which I hadn't locked I was in the middle of doing building work I was in and out the house there was nothing to steal and then he said you haven't eaten so you know he was has to be watching me and I said said, well, it's fine. I've got some food in the fridge. But he insisted he knew what I ate. He said, you eat salmon, don't you?

I think he may have asked something about or suggested a butcher. And I may have said, I don't eat red meat. He kind of clocked that. And then he went away and made it and came back and watched me eat it. And I was just uncomfortable. But I tried to sort of deal with that by writing a thank you note which his partner would also seeing you know read it saying thanks for making me the sandwich but but and it built and built and built I had to tell the builders please don't let him come in if you see him but that in that occasion I was on my own I was really

quite alarmed I had headphones on listening to podcasts and there he was in my home and there was another occasion when you were washing yourself in your kitchen, your bathroom hadn't been completed yet. It was actually my very first morning waking up there and I had to wash myself in the kitchen sink. And this was at seven in the morning. This was March. It was dark outside. I'd just washed my face.

I was about to take my clothes off and then I saw him. And it wasn't a natural place for him to stand. It was the furthest point away from his house and his garden looking through my conservatory. And I just, I was so shocked. I kind of hit the floor and hid behind the cabinets. And then after that, I put in, you know, mirror screening, bamboo screening, which then resulted in him hacking my hedge. You know, I don't know how big it is.

Maybe let's say 10 metre hedge. One thing after another, another. The hedge incident was actually the point where I big it is maybe let's say 10 meter hedge uh one thing after another another the hedge incident was actually the point where I thought this is enough and I contacted the police and what was that experience like contacting the police well I did not contact them until it was absolutely I'm a crime journalist so I just was like oh well it's not you know I was trying to you know deal with it myself and I didn't want to call the police I didn't want to be a victim but I spoke to someone very nice on the phone and they said someone will be in touch nothing happened a couple days later he followed me in his van I tried to sort of get away and

go down another route from where our house is and he followed me and I phoned the police again and then it was a few days after that and initially with female community police officers they were amazing they heard me they took notes they were amazing. They heard me, they took notes, they were with me for two hours, they had a plan of action. But that plan of action was not carried out the way it was supposed to be. I moved out with the thought of

the police are going to go round, he's not going to react well to this, they were going to inform him that I was going to be putting in security cameras and a fence and it didn't happen on the day. So I've moved out and I'm like, hi, has anyone spoken to him yet? No.

And eventually when one officer went round, he emailed me and me and said oh I sat down with him and his partner they were nice and polite it's a misunderstanding and I said did you tell him the date of the fence going and he said no you can tell him yourself and I said no I've been advised not to have contact and he said I will not be your go-between and that's when I had to step up and as a journalist as an assertive woman I contact my local counsellor who contacts an inspector. He knows who then gets... That's the only way I managed to push it. Just sorry to break in then,

but you had a police officer tell you to speak to the person who was stalking? Yes. And this is after... I mean, I haven't even gone into a massive catalogue of things I'd been shouted and sworn at at that point. I was really scared at this point. By your stalker?

Yeah, yeah, by the stalker. And I was told that I just needed it. And he said, I will not be your go-between. And how did that make you feel? Horrendous. I felt helpless. I felt angry. And I think it was someone else suggested to me, you know, contact.

I didn't know what to do. And again, it was like madness because of what my job is. I help victims of crime. But you've got a police officer telling you to go talk to your stalker yeah I mean so he was didn't believe that it was he was looking at it as a neighborhood dispute and I said this is not a neighborhood dispute you know and what what happened was he was taken off my case and I think it was an inspector. He actually apologised and said, we should be your go-between. That's exactly our job.

And someone else got put on the case. Because that must have just added to the feeling of not being believed and madness, like you say. Yeah. And it didn't stop there. I ended up, I'm forwarding on a bit, but I ended up leaving my home and I ended up going, I had to stay with friends and moving around and I ran out of favours. So I went back to the States where I used to live and I moved in with my brother for a bit but I ended up leaving my home and I ended up going I had to stay with friends and moving around and I ran out of favours so I went back to the states where I used to live and I moved in with my brother for a bit and then I heard that they were thinking about the CPS were going to drop the case because I was in the states and they're like it's not a problem anymore so it took me I wrote to the chief constable of Wiltshire I'm sure they'll say that wasn't the reason it was

you know it stayed on track but it did end up staying on track. The CPS refused to pay for my travel. I requested in February that I could give evidence via video so I didn't have to fly back from the States. I think three weeks before the trial, that still hadn't been granted. I had to pay out of my own pocket, which I couldn't afford, thousands to fly back. I was gaslit during the case. Half the evidence wasn't given to the barrister.

She actually apologised to me afterwards and said, you've been badly let down. I got gaslit for being articulate. You know, it's a defense agent's job, but he was saying, you know, you're a journalist. You're good with words, aren't you? He was criticizing who I am as a person. I wasn't a good victim. He was convicted. He was convicted. Yeah. How are you now?

I'm not okay I'm not okay it's devastated me who I am I'm a confident outgoing positive person I was someone who viewed every day as an adventure I was brave I've confronted murderers and that didn't scare me anything near the terror I went through living in this idyllic countryside home. The cost to me financially is huge. I can't even begin to, you know, clock up what that is. I can't live in my home. I can't currently sell my home. The, you know, nightmares, I've got PTSD. I have been going to therapy recently,

which is helping. I'm having EMDR, eye movement desensitization reprogramming. But I find going to the shops, it's not like a rational thing of, I don't think he's going to jump out from a corner or anything like that. But I just feel unsafe in the world

and it's shaking me to my core. And, you know, I've said before, if someone was robbed every day, if he went into my home and stole an item every day, he would have been arrested, charged and through the court system with a more severe penalty than what happened to me. But what he stole from me, you know, stalking victims are serial victims. And what a stalker takes from you, you cannot get back. And that is your sense of safety.

I'm essentially a potential victim for the rest of my life because stalkers don't just stop. What do victims want? We just want them to stop. ITV news anchor and true crime podcast host, Isla Traquair, speaking to Emma. Ding, ding, seconds out, round two. Last month, female boxing made history when Clarissa Shields and Savannah Marshall fought

in front of a sellout crowd at the O2 Arena in London. Clarissa won. It was the first time that two female boxers headlined at a major British venue. Yet despite this win for women's boxing, 99% of all boxers are men and it's still very much a male dominated sport. One woman who's trying to change this is Susanna Schofield OBE. She set up an organisation to ensure that women boxers get the same opportunities as their male counterparts. I started by asking Susanna why boxing? Where did that passion come from? Well I think I've always championed women and I think for me not so much you know I've always said it's right person right job absolutely um and you know I I don't really want to see quotas I want people to get there under their own merit and I think as we move through society I've got two children two girls

they're 14 and 12 and I believe they can do and be whatever they want to be but actually it doesn't matter what I believe it matters what they believe so as long as I instill that with them then we're in a good place but I think in the boxing world, as you say, it's still predominantly male. So I came from 20 years at Royal Mail in a commercial career there, managing mostly men, working with mostly men. Never felt it was a hindrance, which I know I'm very lucky about. But I feel in women's boxing, there's not the safeguarding there in the well-being and there's not the research to to protect them you know it's very simplistic things like the you know the British Boxing Board of Control belt that's at a certain height beautifully protects a gentleman's crown jewels but actually can damage a woman's ovaries but we've not got enough research and insight into

that so part of setting up you know the the platform where women can gather together is to make sure we can champion well-being make sure we can look after safeguarding and make sure we can deal with some of these really big issues like menstrual cycles you know how does that affect boxing how does that really affect our hydration and the levels because you know it is an inherently dangerous sport as all um as all elite sports are. But for some reason, boxing still isn't really normalised. You know, we're very happy to talk about judo and karate with women. But actually, when we say women boxing, there tends to be that sort of, oh, really, do women box?

And this assumption as to what it is. And I think we're 10 years into the Olympics now. You know, we missed the 20, 2008, only got in in 2012. Yeah, only 10 years. It was only in 2012. Yeah, only 10 years. It was only in 20, yeah, which is telling in itself, isn't it? It is, absolutely. And still so much more needs to be done. But I think what's lovely is if you go back a decade,

there was probably only one girl in a gym fighting her way to be part of the boxing community. Now it's completely mixed. You know, boxing is the biggest growing domestic sport for women. And I think more importantly than just the professional side of things, I think actually there's some huge amounts of research to back up that if you have mental problems, if you're really suffering with your wellbeing, if you've got trauma in your life previously, then actually by being able to go and box, you can release serotonin in your brain that enables you to control some of your

emotion and to talk better about it so I think there's so much good that can come from the sport it's you know it's my job I believe as the only licensed female boxing promoter to go out there and championing these amazing women and you are very serious about this because you put your own money behind it absolutely it's all been privately funded um to date and that's that's a passion it's whether my children will agree with that when I when when they don't inherit quite as much. I'm not sure what I do. But I think for me, you know, I hope now to be able to put real eyeballs on this and to have some corporate sponsorship because the Lionesses did incredibly well. And they got the first six or seven pages of most newspapers. But most of those companies still actually only fund male sport. They still actually only give the money to the Premier League when they advertise. So we love to watch women's sport.

It's growing enormously. And I just think now it's my job as a promoter to challenge corporations to say, if you're going to sponsor, you need to sponsor the women's sport as well. You know, we're here, we're doing really well. What do they say to you? When they say, I'm sorry, no, is it because they just don't think there's enough people watching it I yes to start with I think that's where it was but I think this last year has really really changed that Nita I really do I think that now people are looking and they are saying and the Lionesses did that incredibly well you know the rugby's great the fact we've got Formula One you know W1 drivers now there's a there's a whole build-up of it but where I think boxing is so interesting is it's such a dynamic sport to watch when women fight.

Because, you know, you do get journeymen in the ring and there's not quite the depth yet for journeywomen. And as important a part as they play, because they help train the next generation coming up and they help teach new professional fighters. Actually, women psychologically get in genuinely believing they're going to win. So it tends to be, you know, they're not getting in just because they're a professional boxer. They're getting in to win. And psychologically, we're programmed that way. So it's very interesting to see two women going two minute rounds, fast and furious. It's, you know, it's a very, very different sport to watch, but it's incredibly entertaining. That's fascinating. So the psychology is different different they're going in believing they can win what other what are what what other aspects of boxing women's

boxing make it makes it different to men where else do they show more prowess well i think the two minute rounds keep it really fiery and actually women dehydrate faster than men so it's important that we do that but again we need more research around this and i think one of the interesting things is we've been working with a company who produces gum shields that have chips in them and that gives real time information so that actually if you're on the side of the ring you know how hard the head hit was etc so for a woman it's very dangerous for her head to go at an angle and you know and our rib cage is very different because we have children our skull is is differently shaped. So all of that information we can real time send to the coach and their trainer in the corner. We also when we were televised last time for the show, we managed to share that with the viewers.

So we can actually say that's the equivalent of being hit. It's proper punch stats that are actually recorded. And for me, if you've got a woman in sparring, and because we do dehydrate faster, because of our breast tissue, and because of our menstrual cycle, it's incredibly important that if you've taken a blow to the head in sparring, you know how hard that was, and you can give yourself enough time to rest. So that technology, the British Boxing Board of Control were great to allow us to use it for the first time in a professional fight. And I'm going to really champion in this moving forward. I think the technology is there.

Call it VAR for boxing if you want. But I think it's super important. I really want you to share this story about getting your OBE with us, though, as you are on Women's Hour, because I read this and I thought, our audience needs to hear this. What happened the day you went to get your OBE? Well, it's great, isn't it? Because you dress up and you get on a train to commute into London so it was an incredible surprise to get it but you commute into London

completely overdressed and you have to wear a hat and I've got my two children with me who were five and seven at the time so we're walking down the Strand and there was a gentleman stood to the side of the Strand and obviously everyone's looking and he turned to the girl turned to my children he said oh wow this is amazing. I know where you're going. You're off to the palace because it's, you know, it's Order of the British Empire Day. And then he knelt down in front of my youngest and said, what's daddy done to deserve this?

And my youngest put her shoulders back and looked at him and said, daddy's done nothing. Mummy's the clever one. And I felt incredibly bad for my husband. But I did, I was like, yes, mummy is, let's go. Woman's Hour, a place that celebrates clever celebrates clever mums that was Susanna Schofield OBE on the growth of women's boxing. Still to come on the programme the BAFTA award-winning actor Andrea Rysborough on carrying around her own tea bags and playing Mrs Wormwood in Matilda the Musical that opened in the cinema this week and remember you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week, just subscribe to The Daily Podcast. It's free via the BBC Sounds app.

Now, anyone who has seen or read the vagina monologues may recall that the clitoris has 8,000 nerve fibres and is the only organ in the body designed purely for pleasure. Except, that's not quite right. New research done on women, as opposed to cows, shows that the clitoris actually has over 10,000 nerve endings, 20% more than previously thought. But does this increase in number matter? And why are we only finding out now? If you've just joined us, welcome to Woman's Hour.

We spoke to Rachel Egross, an American science journalist and author of Vagina Obscura and Anatomical Voyage, and Dr Brooke van der Molen, an NHS obstetrics and gynecology registrar, also known as the blogger The OBGYN Mom. Emma started by asking Rachel about where this previous stat of 8,000 nerve fibres in the clitoris comes from. Something about testing on cows in the 1970s? Yeah, I think one of the reasons this study has gone so viral is because people are learning now that this number that was bandied about

by the public and honestly the media came from this one really crude study, like you said, in the 1970s on cows. And the fact that that was thought to be okay for it to stand in for women, as you can kind of tell by your voice is exasperating. It's extraordinary. Yeah, it is. But at the same time, kind of unsurprising, right? Well, yes, with some of what we know about the gaps in knowledge and this new research, though, can we trust that, do you think? Yeah, I think so. So this research, the origin story is really worth mentioning. It was two kind of unexpected doctors in conversation.

One is a gender affirmation plastic surgeon who goes by Queer Surgeon on social media. And the other is one of the very few Black women urologists in this country. So Dr. Blair Peters and Maria Uloko. And they were talking and getting kind of annoyed that this cow number was still around and they didn't have a better reference point. And suddenly Dr. Peters was like, hey, I have access to these nerves and this is important to the patients that I work with as well. And so together he was able to kind of use some of the nerves that he trims during an operation called phalloplasty and magnify them and count up the nerves. And I think it just speaks to how this information is important

to multiple fields. And it's going to take doctors from all sorts of fields to figure it out. Do you think, to bring you into this, good morning, Brooke, do you think there's anything as a gynecologist that we'll learn from this that will be better for us as women now we know this? And how can we use this information yeah i think having any kind of research done on women rather than animal models is fantastic and so important and i think in terms of our understanding of of the clitoris itself we've understood for a while you know its role um it the kind of some of the anatomy of it and its function but i think uh being able to map out exactly uh the nerves as they are is really

important. And also just kind of bringing that attention to getting women involved in research, I think is so important. So I'm not sure how it would change necessarily clinically so much of what we do, but I think it is so important that we have the research, the publicity to understand the anatomy of the clitoris, the function of this important organ, and knowing just how many nerve endings there are is really important for us. One of the first messages we got in this morning when I asked a question about our listeners' relationship with the clitoris, their knowledge, their knowledge perhaps of themselves, was this. It says, what is the clitoris? I actually don't know. And I'm a woman and a daughter of doctors. What do you say to that Brooke?

Well I think it speaks a lot of our society and how we speak about the gynecological organs in general. I think there's a lot of difficulty in naming the different parts of the body and maybe you know even when we're younger we should be using better terminology perhaps. So I'm not surprised because I think a lot of people can't maybe can't distinguish exactly between their vulva and their vagina, for example. And certainly pointing out its exact location can be difficult for people. So the clitoris itself, it's it's positioned right under the point where the kind of the labia meet each other in the vulva and they form a little hood, which is known as the clitoral hood. So it's it's it's an organ that sits right underneath that. And it's much bigger than we first kind of imagine when we think of it as that kind of little pea shape at the top of the vulva. But actually, it goes deeper.

It's got a glands that runs behind it and also extends either side of the labia. So it's kind of more of a wishbone shape rather than a pea. And the function of it, it's purely for pleasure. It doesn't have any exact function kind of in reproduction, which is probably why there's not been so much attention to it, because especially research that was done in the past, maybe more constructed by male scientists, was kind of focused on function and, for example, the uterus in reproduction and the bladder and its role in excretion. But because it doesn't have those kind of functions, maybe it hasn't had so much attention before. But it is so important as we understand it for sexual function. Yes. I mean, there's a message here, Rachel, which I thought

you would like to hear in particular, which talks about remembering memories from Jane, who's written in to say, I remember a biology textbook in the 70s. I was puzzled to see the clitoris included in a diagram of the reproductive system of the mouse, but not of the human female. I mean, you know, some of the best stories, if I can call them best, of how the clitoris has been ignored or maligned in history, don't you? Indeed, yes. I think there are a lot of ridiculous moments, including 16th century anatomists fighting over who discovered the clitoris and who got to name it. Meanwhile, all the women in the background just shook their heads. But maybe one relevant detail here is that Hippocrates, the Greek doctor, was one of the first to kind of name the genitals of men and women. And he called them the shame parts in Greek.

And it became a trend where every time an anatomist claimed to have discovered the clitoris, they would name it the part that you should be ashamed of in whatever language they were working in. So, mon bret en tout. Oh, yes. So there's been just like a theme of shame throughout, I would say. And then there's been a trend of kind of the clitoris being lost and found in anatomical textbooks, like this woman was mentioning.

It'll end up getting erased, I think, partially because it's considered not to have a role in reproduction. It's not important to the organs that are being shown, the reproductive organs. And it kind of falls through the cracks. Yeah, I mean, you could make numerous jokes there about it being lost and found in real life, as well as in textbooks, but some people talking about they would rather there was a bit more knowledge out there by everybody. But I also thought just to get your take on this, Rachel,

there's been a number of occasions where the clitoris has been called the female penis. I mean, it's never reversed around, is it, that men's parts are referred to as, I don't know, as something that's on our bodies, on women's bodies. But tell us about that. That's a great point. But I think that what Brooke was talking about, about the anatomy of the clitoris is really important to recognize. It's not that the penis should be the central reference point. It's that we all have a shared body plan in the womb and it kind of gets embroidered upon from there. It's not that the female is the default as many anatomical textbooks say. So I think that's important for

the clitoris because there is a glands and that is equivalent to the head of the penis. So that just allows you to think how much else of the penis there is. And there is a shaft in the clitoris that goes back into the body. And then there are the two arms that kind of swoop against the pubic bones. And there are two kind of teardrop shaped bulbs that hug the vagina. And I kind of see it as like a penguin spaceship shape and the beak would be the shaft and the glands. So it gives you an idea of how extensive it is and also that it's all erectile tissue. So it is all about pleasure, orgasm, sensitivity

as this new study really underscores. Never thought I'd hear that description, but I'm going to remember that. Thank you for that, Rachel. That's a real gift you've just given to us all. I'm here to help. You are. Brooke, just a final word to you, if I can.

There's a message here, which I thought you'd also like, which says, in the 70s, Jackie magazine decided to run a piece on masturbation. It was completely eye-opening for me as a teenager, as it was scientific and non nonjudgmental in tone. I then went through five years of medical school in London without the clitoris being mentioned once.

Can you relate? Yes, I probably would agree that we don't learn a great deal about the clitoris during medical training. And again, I think it comes back to this focus on anatomy, on function, on the kind of big organs and their involvement and especially in medical school we learn a lot about pathology so when things um you know what could be wrong with an organ but you don't really learn about you know in its in its normal state what is its function how can it be stimulated and all those kind of different aspects um of it so we we did learn about it in a purely anatomical sense on a diagram and maybe learning, you know, the blood supply and the nerve supply. We didn't get much or any training really when it comes to sexual function, psychosexual kind of information about that.

And I think that reflects back to what we were saying before about traditionally why there wasn't such a focus on it. And I think, yeah, it's definitely a big gap that's missed. And I think it gets missed a lot now in medical consultations when you're asking people, for example, seeing somebody who's been through the menopause and maybe comes to see you about hot flushes, but doesn't feel comfortable to talk about their vaginal dryness and the way that their menopause is impacting on their sexual function. And I think because as doctors often at the training that we maybe got in medical school didn't really focus on these, we don't necessarily ask those kind of questions. That was Dr Brooke van der Molen and Rachel Egros speaking to Emma there.

Now, last year, around 42% of marriages in the UK ended in divorce and in opposite sex marriages, nearly two thirds of divorces were initiated by women. Now, two writers want to try and address why we so often struggle or fail in long-term relationships. And to be clear, we're not talking here about major marriage crimes, as one of our guests called them, things like infidelity, domestic abuse or gambling away the family's savings. Instead, we're going to focus on the more everyday relationship difficulties, like lack of intimacy, communication problems, lack of trust or respect, or simply being unhappy. Stuff that almost every couple struggles with from time to time. Emma spoke to Joanna Harrison, a couples therapist and the author of Five Arguments All Couples Need to Have and Why the Washing Up Matters,

and Matthew Frey, a relationship coach from the US, who's written This Is How Your Marriage Ends, a hopeful approach to saving relationships. Emma started by asking Matthew about his own marriage and subsequent divorce. She asked him why his wife made the decision to end their marriage. Do we have 17 hours to talk about it? Alas not. It was, yeah, it was, you know, it was a million little things that any one of them, if I said it, would sound absurd to any listener, but probably not busy

working mothers who've experienced the same thing for a long time. It was a series of micro betrayals and it's the way most people erode trust in their relationships. And you have come to recognise what those are and understand them? I think so. It's fundamental absence of considering a relationship partner. And then we tend to couple that with not responding to their... A relationship partner should have the ability to tell their partner that something's wrong and then have it work out for them on some level. And that almost never happens. That communication, excuse me, in unhealthy relationships and that communication breakdown, that inability for my wife to say to me that something was wrong and have me respond in a

way that actually helped, I think was ultimately the recipe that resulted in us ending. And just before I bring my other guest into this, before I bring Joanna into this, you talk about accidental sexism ruining your marriage, and you also talk about something called the invalidation triple threat, which you say men meet out far more than women. What's that? That was what I was just referring to.

It is the belief that when a relationship partner says something to us, there's something wrong with what they're thinking, there's something wrong with what they're feeling, or our inclination is to defend ourselves if it's levying some charge against us. And when we get stuck in that cycle relationally, the other person never gets to say something's wrong unless we approve of them thinking or feeling that and then when when that conversation can't happen over many months and years the relationship will break down because nothing ever gets repaired. Jana let's talk to you about these these smaller everyday things that build up then what was your take on that? I mean I think you know we we have to find a way to live with each other in a relationship and it's the everyday stuff that we're dealing with every day. And it's really difficult.

And I completely agree with Matthew that, you know, when we're making a complaint about the everyday stuff, if the other person doesn't really respond or says, no, I don't agree, it's not right or is defensive, then, you know, it feels like a mini betrayal. And if we're not tending to the everyday stuff, that affects the whole big picture. So, you know, Matthew writes about the glass left by the sink and that was driving his wife mad. And it does. You know, I hear in couple therapy again and again these frustrations about the everyday stuff. You know, we're talking about the washing up all the time.

We're talking about the dishwasher. I've heard every single row about it and and and it's in that that that all our strong feelings about each other need tending to because that's daily life that's that's what a relationship is how does the discussion about the dishwasher bring that out I think you know at one level there's like we've got to find a way to live together we've got to find a way to make this work, to navigate the kitchen together. But actually, you know, say there's deeper frustrations. I talk about these five arguments we have. So one of them is like frustrations about workload, which is a big toxic one. If someone is unhappy about their amount of workload in the relationship, it's going to

find its way into the argument about the dishwasher or the washing up. It's just they're going to be feeling annoyed that they're doing it again. And that may speak to the bigger pattern of how the workload is shared in the relationship. And that stuff needs addressing. Otherwise, it is hugely corrosive. And that small argument that seems to be about this small thing, if that's only treated as a small thing, you're missing a huge opportunity to think about, OK, how is the workload set out in our relationship

and what do you feel about it? And do you think it's salvageable when you get to that stage, when these things have set in and they're every day? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my whole book is about, like, the arguments we have are brilliant. You know, people think, oh, we must not have arguments, no conflict, but actually they're flags for like okay this is something that really needs addressing if we can look at this if you if

we keep having this argument again and again what is that about and that you know that that is the moment to look and see what what we can salvage what what is this actually about rather than as Matthew says being defensive and not being curious so curiosity is everything when there's an argument, that is a way into looking at it after the argument. What was that about? What did that mean to you? Do you think your relationship could have been salvageable, Matthew? It's a tricky question. Had I known then what I know now? Absolutely. Really?

Under the circumstances, no. It took, I always answer this question, as it took the pain of her leaving and losing the family, I think, to feel sufficiently motivated to do the work, which is not a testament to me, by the way. And in terms of what do you wish you could then say to perhaps others to help them be in a position where they don't get to the place where there's a breakup i'm so sorry that i'm not sure that i'm understanding what what do you what do you what advice do you want to give to those so that they can respond better and maybe not get to the stage where the relationship breaks down what do you wish you had known if i'm talking to

my male counterparts and male female relationships, I really wish they would stop thinking of negative feedback as some character attack, some harm to their ego. It's an opportunity to protect the other person from this negative experience. And I now, today, 10 years removed from my relationship, welcome information that allows me to, like, meet someone's needs. This fundamental absence of need fulfillment in relationships is the actual problem. And every time my wife tried to tell me what they were, I rejected it.

I didn't let her. I just wish people would embrace that process. Why do you think you were rejecting it? Because I took it as criticism. I took it as unfair criticism or judgment of me. I thought I was a good person. I thought I was a good relationship partner. And then I didn't allow any feedback to the contrary. And someone is allowed to hurt, even though we don't intend to hurt them. And that was a shockingly simple but difficult lesson for me to learn

was that my intentions do not equal the experiences of those around me. Joanna, to come to this statistic I shared at the beginning, opposite sex marriages, nearly two thirds of divorces are initiated by women. What do you make of that with your experience?

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, every ending to a relationship is different. I think you might think about, I talk in my chapter about roles, about the different work we do in relationships. And maybe, you know, one person is doing sort of emotional thinking about what needs tending to in the relationship. Maybe one is thinking about other roles. And maybe women are thinking more about what is going on in the relationship,

what needs tending to, flagging it up, saying this needs addressing. As Matthew, you described sort of minimising it. And so I think someone can carry the like, this needs to be changed. And over a long term relationship if you keep making a bid for change and it isn't engaged with at some point people give up you know and is that more women than men well clearly statistically it seems to be in your conversations though do you see it as the women who are who are i mean matthew i don't know if you've got a take on this about whether it's men who can't often listen or take that on like you were saying male conditioning

perhaps i wouldn't want to come off i get a lot of criticism for sounding like i'm blaming men for relationship problems and i'm not blaming anybody i don't think most of the time men are bad i think the skills necessary to execute relationships are often displayed by women more often than men in male-female relationships if we're making broad generalizations, which isn't particularly cool. But it's not about character attacks. It's about awareness. It's about habits. It's about behavior. And I brought less to the table than my wife did. And it's really that simple, and I think that's often the case in male-female relationships today. Joanna?

I mean, I think you can think, you know, when there's an issue in a relationship, you can think about it from both ways. That's what I do, is, like, not thinking about one person to blame, but the dynamic. I think we can also think about how, if there's a problem, we bring it up so that we don't make the other person feel really defensive. You know, it's sort of how these conversations happen rather than making really

blaming accusations that put someone's back up immediately how do we how do we have conversations that make it easier for us to look at what is difficult in a relationship so I like to think about it as a dynamic yes well I think and there's a message here that says please can you repeat this conversation about relationships every day at 8 30 in the morning so everyone can hear it brackets including my husband uh which is one of our listeners getting in touch straight away off the back of it thank you very much for your honesty matthew i'm sure you've been having some interesting conversations uh about the book but also maybe within your family how's it been received in your family just before you leave us, the book and your lessons?

That's funny. I actually love my family, but I think I learned all my behavior traits from my family. So they're very proud of me and the work that I'm doing, but I honestly am not sure deep down that they're entirely on board with what I've come to believe is necessary for relationships to succeed. Well, that's interesting. Which is an element of relativism. Someone's allowed to hurt even if you don't think it's a big deal.

Relationship coach Matthew Frey and couples therapist Joanna Harrison speaking to Emma about why relationships end. Now, our next guest is an actor known for playing a range of really hard-hitting roles and some incredibly strong women, both real and fictional. Andrea Rysborough was nominated for a BAFTA for her portrayal of Margaret Thatcher in TV drama The Long Road to Finchley and played Wallis Simpson in W.E., directed by Madonna. She's just won Best Performance at the 2022 Raindance Festival for her depiction of a single mother spiralling into addiction following a huge lottery win. But the role she came on Woman's Hour to talk about, whilst definitely a strong woman of sorts,

is quite a departure from all of that. Andrea is playing Mrs Wormwood in a brand new screen adaptation of the hit West End show Matilda the Musical alongside Stephen Graham as her husband, Emma Thompson as Miss Trunchbull and Lashana Lynch as Miss Honey. What a cast. Before we hear her chat with Emma, here's a clip from Matilda the Musical. Oh no! We've been exhausted Harry! We forgot to send you to school! He goes to school! He goes to school all the time, don't you, boy? I'm a girl. No, I don't. I've never been to school.

Well, where'd you get all the books from? From the library. Well, they're doing books now. Oh, you are such an idiot! What, me? I've got a business to run. It's not my job to look after brats. Haven't I got enough stress with all this debt you put us in? That I've put us in? Yeah, yeah, you! Don't you get it?

We're trapped in the chains of debt. Well, I have a whole house to run. Dinners don't microwave themselves, you know. No, they don't. Good morning, Andrea Osborne. They don't. It's so great. And there's Matilda in the middle of this mayhem,

trying to just be... Just trying to be a a literary genius yes and maybe be noticed for being a girl as well maybe maybe have a gender recognized as well yeah yeah um why did you want to do it i mean for me having seen some of this now you look incredible in it the outfits are amazing aren't they they're ridiculous i couldn't sit down at lunch i was flammable i was actually actually somebody told me that in an interview the other day they said i think you look highly flammable mrs wyrmwood was anything attached to you you know was anything actually yours it wasn't it wasn't mine at all the hair the nails you know

the butt pads everything yeah just to describe it very, how would you say the outfits are? Shiny? You know, there's something about the 80s that just harks back to chicken in a basket and cocktail sausages and gold lame, all being mixed in together in one awful melange. I'd say Mrs Wormwood is the representation or the celebration of that, perhaps. All in one person. All in the one person, yeah. I have to say, it's lovely to see you and Stephen Graham in this sort of role because you both do a lot of hard-hitting work as well.

Yes, gritty drama. Yes. Did you enjoy it? It really is lovely. I mean, Stephen's such a fine actor, such a fine actor. One of his performances is one of my favourite performances, I think, of all time, and this is England, the film. Me too.

Just an extraordinary actor. And it's so, so wonderful to just laugh. You know, we laugh. I mean, firstly, we laughed so much more when we weren't being mean to Matilda. Because actually, to be horrible to a child for quite an extended period of time is just pretty miserable, it turns out. You know, the first couple of weeks is really fun. You think you're being quite clever and then actually it wears on you in ways you don't expect.

But the in-between times, when we weren't being absolutely horrible to her, we just giggled so much. It was wonderful. We've asked for people to get in touch, our listeners to get in touch today about Matilda, if they relate to her in any way. And there's a lovely message here, which I thought you'd like,

which says, I'm 61 now, but growing up, I loved reading and I desperately wanted to go to university and had dreams of becoming a journalist. My staunchly working class parents were having none of it. My father's favourite expression, he was educated in the school of life, was if it was good enough for him, it should be good enough for me. And so we're getting some of these messages about it being brilliant to love education but perhaps those around you not i'm so happy we're putting down the idea finally we're putting aside the idea that if it's good

enough for one person it should be for another yeah because we're all we just all have our own needs don't we and it's one of the things i love about Matilda, and it's especially at a time like this, is that it just encourages that love of literature. And that's not what the movie's firstly saying, but it's the underlying theme, this place that we all have, and it might not be literature, it might be something else entirely, where we go to escape in those very difficult moments, you know, and Matilda escapes in her head in this wildly imaginative, magical way. And it's how she copes with everyday life. And so Roald Dahl writing this in the shed at the back of his house as an old man processing his own

childhood and thinking of him doing that, I think really only with the wisdom of age could you then reflect with that much clarity on childhood. There are so many brilliant children's books that have been written by much older writers. There's a sort of freedom. And, you know, you've gone through so many rites of passage when you're the age that he was when he was writing um these most of his incredible books um so well i was going to say mrs wormwood and talking about those around you whether they nurture or not she she's the ultimate anti-mother in in many ways and uh yes there's you know the first scene of the whole film in contrast to to all the mums singing to their little ones being a miracle she sat there

with an enormous baby bump flat out denying that she's pregnant. Did you enjoy breaking the traditional rules around womanhood, motherhood? Given the expectations that are, you know, often put on us in terms of motherhood as women, it's completely logical to imagine that a woman may, just like a man, feel like they don't want to be a parent. And I think for Mrs Wormwood,

who in the dynamic between the Wormwoods and Matilda, the Wormwoods, the parents are undoubtedly the children in that dynamic, and Matilda is the adult in a strange way. She's sort of the calm in the centre of a storm. And I think it's horribly sad, but completely understandable that this young woman wouldn't be ready to bring a child into the world and then would bring it into the world

because she felt like that's what, well, Mrs Wynwood, she's actually having the baby when she realised, in our film, she's literally giving birth as she realises she's pregnant. So she's in quite a lot of denial. Yeah, it's a pretty late stage. Yes, I'd say nine months. It's safe to say. But I think also just, you know, there's that idea of how you make your own way, but who those people are who are important to you as well in there, whether it's your parents or a teacher, you know, who those people are. There's a message here

which says, as a single mum in the 90s, excuse me, I brought Roald Dahl's Matilda for my eight-year-old daughter. It quickly became her favourite book, travelled everywhere with her. Now she's a consultant and ethicist in London with her own children and the much-loved and ragged copy of Matilda is still on the shelf, says Sally. And I was looking at one of your recent interviews where you're talking about your work, this and other things.

And you talked about your Nana pretty much raising you. And there's a great story here. You know, you talk about work ethic and getting up at 5am, going to bed at 11 o'clock at night, started work at 13, you say, pushing... Yeah, she was 13 or 14 i think i'd have

to ask my mom yeah well pushing a bread cart up a really steep hill but this line i just thought was brilliant where he said and she works as a cleaner until her late 80s i cannot remember her sitting down to the point where we were once having christmas dinner and she was ironing and if she could hear me now she'd say well it needed to be done it's a true story it's a great insight such a wonderful memory it's a wonderful she's such a she was just such a resilient generous um very very funny uh like dry humor very very funny wonderful grandma. I'm very lucky to have had her. Do you think she did instil some of that work ethic, though, into you?

And how was her influence as we think about, you know, the influence of those around us? I think my parents did. I think my grandparents did. You know, I mean, they were born into a world... My mum and dad were born into rationing. It was the end of the Second World War. And I just always remember a sense of being very aware of feeling how grateful, you know, we were for being able to do what we were doing. I can't really explain that. Nobody articulated that, but I just remember feeling lucky, you know. And my mum and dad worked tirelessly.

My dad's a car dealer and my mum was at home and she was also working with my dad sometimes. And at the same time, she was getting a degree and then she was getting a master's degree, actually, and going to school at night. I remember working during the day and then studying until midnight. I wasn't wanting for role models of hard workers. and she's in improvisation and a brilliant comedian, has a tireless work ethic.

So I think it was just a gift, really. I mean, it doesn't feel like a gift when you really do need to sit down and a cup of tea, which is how I relax. Even in America, where you live? So the tea's still there? Oh, it's a nightmare. It's an absolute nightmare. But getting a decent cup?

Absolute nightmare. I pack my own wherever I go now. That's how I knew I'd reached a certain point. I actually brought one in my pocket here today. Well, come on. We'd look after you at Woman's Hour. I know, but I've already drank it. I'm just very specific

about tea and people don't understand that it can't be lukewarm. You know, Maggie Smith does, but it's, yeah, it's hard to explain

that internationally. I like the way you threw that in. Maggie Smith does. You know that tea rant in the film that she's in, which is something

about it being a herb and it needing to be revived back to life with very hot water, not lukewarm piss. Excuse me. Oh, yeah, we'll take that.

We'll excuse it. But I thought you were just saying when you and Maggie, you know, are out. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. I've never, ever had a cup of tea with Maggie Smith. No, neither have I. But we should seek to try and make that happen. Maggie, if you're available and you can be asked. Please.

Yeah. Come with me and Andrea. I've just gatecr asked. Please. Yeah. Come with me and Andrea. I've just gatecrashed, sorry. But I was going to say something else about you in the sense of you are in a great deal of roles. There are a lot of characters that you have brought to life. And I wonder, do you get recognised? Because there was this tweet I saw,

there was a thread about the phenomenon of what's called Andrea Rysborough face blindness. So the idea, the inability of what's called Andrea Rysborough face blindness so the idea the inability of the public to recognize you in many of your roles so they'll see you and then they'll be like who's that that's Andrea okay and I wonder if how's that been in real life do you get stopped I do yeah I mean it's it's it's generally really really lovely and, you know, lots of just very thoughtful things sort of said, people say thoughtful things. Yeah. And that's lovely.

But yes, at the minute I have, you know, I have a shaved head. Yeah, I was going to say. Because I've just played a character going through chemotherapy. And so, and those, the thing is, as an actor, those things are great tools, apart from being interested in changing the sort of rhythm and tone of how you move and speak and the experience you've had throughout your life, you know, the history of a human. We all have a different one, even if we're twins. What's really amazing is we have all these tools that kind of, you know,

we have hair growing on my head that instantly makes a difference, you know, if it disappears or if it changes in some way. And that's really, really useful as a character. When I had a shaved head for the last six weeks or something, I've seen so many people be really, you know, so many different reactions to the way that, to me having no hair. I bet.

And to have that experience, you know, it's arresting. It's heartening in loads of ways because people are very, very kind. And you want to say to them, God, I'm not going through what people are actually going through, which is so, so difficult. You know, I'm not going through that. You don't need to take care of me, you know. But it's given you an insight into that. It's an unusual job in that way, I think. Yeah.

There's one very quick question, if I can ask. Yeah. I didn't understand it. How did you end up being a table for Patti Smith and Madonna at a premiere of W.E. playing at Wallis' We were in Venice, which is where the film premiered the Venice Film Festival

and I was wearing this stupid dress and these false eyelashes I just started having to do all that red carpet stuff and I didn't know what I was doing I felt like a camel, you know, and I didn't feel like myself I remember feeling deeply embarrassed that didn't know what I was doing. I felt like a camel, you know, and I was didn't feel like myself. Okay. I remember feeling deeply embarrassed that this is the moment I was meeting, you know, I was with Madonna already. But we were meeting Patti Smith. And it was the first time Madonna had met Patti Smith as well. And she was a

completely normal person to her. You know, she's very welcoming and talks about you. Patti talked about having had a dream about Madonna. And it was a, you know, it was a great meeting. And I just sort of froze in the middle. I was sitting in between them. And they were each resting on one of my legs. And I was just sitting erect, terrified, thinking, you know, she's going to think I'm some sort of show pony camel. So you were sitting in between and they were just... I still want to impress Patti Smith, but I know it's not going to happen.

I can't even talk. You just became a sort of thing in the middle. Yeah, the same happened when Beyonce once asked me to dance and I just sort of tried to get up, but I just ended up just looking at like a lower midriff sort of thing area just unable to move and then I felt like I really disappointed her I don't know her you know but she asked you to dance yes it was a place where people were dancing you know and I sort of panicked you know when you go into this when the world just slows you know and the people that are just you just admire so

much for so many different reasons that you just kind of freeze how many times have you relived that moment in your mind none only once with james gordon in an interview the one and and now the and now the patty smith one with you here which and actually patty's got on to be a friend and she's just one of the most inspiring people i've ever met well Well that's good, you've managed to actually have a conversation. I can talk to her not just being inanimate. I mean I can do a sentence you know here and there

Can we just pause for a moment and take on board that Patty Smith is her mate The actor Andrea Rysborough speaking to Emma there and yes Andrea we do make a really good cuppa at Woman's Hour but I have to share with you, I bring in my own mug. That's all from me

and Weekend Woman's Hour. Tune in on Monday at 10. Emma will be speaking to the talk show host, actor, and now filmmaker Ricky Lake. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.