Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Tamsin Greig and Celia Imrie, Esther Ghey, Nnedi Okorafor, Same Dress Different Bodies, Fostering, Rory

Episode Date: March 1, 2025

Two of the country’s best-loved stage and screen Olivier award-winning actors, Celia Imrie and Tamsin Greig are currently playing mother and daughter in Backstroke, a new play at the Donmar Warehouse in London, that unpicks the complications of their relationship over a lifetime. They joined Nuala McGovern in to discuss their on-stage relationship.Esther Ghey’s transgender daughter Brianna was murdered in February 2023 by two 15 year olds. The killers were radicalised online, and 16-year-old Brianna herself was harmfully addicted to her phone, despite all of her mum’s efforts to limit her usage. Esther has now become a campaigner for the safer use of smartphones for children, and for the use of mindfulness in schools. She also decided to forgive her child’s killers, and is now friends with one of their mothers. Esther joined Anita Rani in the Woman’s Hour studio to talk about her new memoir, Under a Pink Sky.Nigerian American science fiction author Nnedi Okorafor's new book is Death of the Author. It follows the story of Zelu, a novelist who is disabled, unemployed and from a very judgmental family. Nnedi and Nuala talked about the book within her book, success, and how she turned to writing as she recovered from a life-changing operation. Same Dress Different Bodies began when fashion-loving friends Laura Adlington and Lottie Drynan realised they were both having problems finding clothes they felt comfortable in, Lottie because of bloating caused by IBS, and Laura because she was limited by what was available in plus sizes. They joined Nuala to talk about turning their positive approach to fashion into a live show.Listener Emma Shaw got in touch with Woman's Hour after hearing author Beth Moran discuss fostering on the programme. She joined Nuala to share her own experience of being fostered alongside her siblings, along with Sarah Thomas, CEO of The Fostering Network, a charity that supports both foster parents and children.Singer-songwriter and ADHD YouTube influencer RØRY, who has co-written three top 10 hits for other artists including Charlie XCX, has finally broken through the charts with a top 10 album of her own at the age of 40. She joined Anita to talk about her journey from addiction to recovery and her new found success, and performs live in the studio.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Annette Wells

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme. Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks it will take to feel truly alive.

If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to a selection of standout moments from the week. Olivier award-winning actors Celia Imrie and Tamsa Gregg on performing together in Backstroke,

which is about the mother daughter relationship. Fashion influencers, Laura Adlington and Lottie Drynen on wearing the same dress on different bodies. It started online, but now they're at the London Palladium. And we look to the future with the Nigerian American science fiction writer, Nnedi Okorafor

on her new book Death of the Author. Plus the singer-songwriter Rory who has finally got success in her 40s under her own name after writing successfully for years for others. So lots to get to. But let us begin with Backstroke. It is a new play currently on at the Donmar in London and it unpicks the complications of a mother-daughter relationship over a lifetime. It stars two of the country's best loves stage and screen, Olivier Award winning actors Celia Imrie and

Tamsin Gregg. And Tamsin and Celia join me this week in the Woman's Hour studio and I began by asking Tamsin what it's like to play her character Bo. I've heard it called the middle squeeze so that you know that middle part of your life where you have extraordinary responsibilities on both sides wherever you look there's a there's a desperate need and then you know a profound willingness within the heart of those people who are juggling different age spans and needs I think is all the fact that the thing that really seduced me with with the play is that we both play the different characters at different ages. Yes. So Bo, I have to

inhabit her at the age of 5, 10, 13, 18, 22 up to 51. And it really made me think about that peculiar experience of feeling all the ages of your life at the same time. And that there are some people who deliver a five-year-old in a grown-up's body and can be therefore very playful and charming but can also be a massive pain in the bum. So it's how you playfully engage with what you know and what you don't know of yourself at certain ages. And you know, you can get a five-year-old who is really in tune and knows about the world and then you get someone who's, you know, in their 70s who is more childlike than the... And so perhaps you're talking about Beth there, your mother in it played

by Celia. What a character. How would we describe her? Childlike at times, fierce, a fierce matriarch at other times. What was it like to play her? Well, I got to the stage where I kept being sent parts where I was in a wheelchair, dying, having Alzheimer's. How did that feel? Well, rather depressing. I thought, hold on a second. I don't want quite to be buried yet. You know, I want to hang on to a bit of glamour. Why not? Well, I saw you at BAFTAs and we can get to that in a moment. No, but the thing is, first of all, Anna McAnlis, our brilliant director and playwright, sold it to me by saying it was a love letter to her mother, which I thought was a wonderful way of putting it. And then when I read it and I realized, yes, I was going to die and have Alzheimer's, but I could also jump out of bed and be 26.

You know, and so that was the thing that clinched it. And even on the deathbed, there is fierce vitality within that character. There's so much movement in Aesiliad, which I was struck with the character of Beth as you moved across the stage. Even the arched foot, I was like, that looks like a dancer's foot. I thought, very graceful movement. And then I was reading last night, you did want to be a ballet dancer at one point. Oh Lord, yes. I wanted to be a prima ballerina and marry Rudolf Nureyev. Unfortunately I was too big and he was too gay but doesn't matter. And we both share dancer beginnings, don't we?

Well yeah, I did lots of ballet as a child and tried to get into the Royal Ballet School and they took one look at me and were no too big. And so we both... And that was our gain. But I think that what's beautiful about this play is that it is about, like you say, the vitality and the narcissistic dance of the individual that has to encounter the other. And I think there's something very beautiful about how those two elements bash against each other. And when they let them in and when they don't because the exasperation that Bo goes through as the daughter is visceral and whether it's trying to get medical attention for her mother or when she's a teenager for example and her mother wants to go to university with

her. And when it comes to this is what I thought was so one of those exquisite points when it comes to almost this is what I thought was so one of those exquisite points, when it comes to almost fever pitch of frustration, humour comes in and diffuses everything. Talk to me a little bit about that, about how the humour kind of threaded through. Well, Anna Lovzell, Anna MacMahon loves a laugh and is very quick to spot the hilarity in things. And I've always talked about the biological response that laughing and crying are very similar muscular responses. And so if you're close to that kind of the tremor of crying, of sobbing,

it's almost indistinction at times with panicked laughing. So I think that they are very easy bedfellows. And I mean you can't just cry all night long. You've got to have a laugh. Shakespeare knows, you know, switch it up, you know, because a lot of the audience will possibly have gone through losing their mother or having lost their mother, and it struck me very much that I personally wish that I hadn't lost my tempo with my mother maybe once, twice. I wish I could have those days back, you know, when she was being cantankerous or something and she wasn't, she was wonderful. But I think if there's anything this play

might remind people of, is make the most of them while you've got them. Because actually nothing prepares you for your mother dying. It's colossal. Profound. Yes. And so don't regret any of the moments. But my goodness, Bo is tested to the limit. I mean, you know. One of the very moving scenes there, Armani, is this is a spoiler alert if I talk about it.

I wonder. But a list of small but oh so significant things that her mother taught her, the one that really stayed with me after way is the very best way to eat an orange, but also how to knit, darn, crochet. I wonder, C.D., as you talk about your mother, is there one thing that comes to the mind as Bo is reading out this list? My own experience. My favorite bit of the list.

And remember, I'm dead at the time, but I listened to it very carefully and very moved about, about being perpetually late, but then the room being enchanted by your eventual entrance. Well done, you remembered that beautifully. I don't remember it because I've got it written down at the funeral. That's my favourite. Yes, you know, it's something I aspire to. And certainly was true of my darling mother.

Oh, how lovely, how lovely. But I think there are those things that it just brings you back to that parent-child relationship. But also you talk about, you know, treasure them while you have them. But also kind of how quickly the years go in because people are so busy. That's coming back to Beau with that middle, what was it called? The middle squeeze. The middle squeeze that you're trying to rely on other people and keep all these plates spinning while trying to have a family life and have a career.

And also kind of, how would I say, still looking for the approval of your mother even at the age of 50. I think that doesn't ever leave you really. You know there is there's a hot string that's always being twanged there. But what's beautiful about the play is that Bo learns from a very young age to be a survivor, which prepares her for her eventual taking on of this very complex child, who is not her biological child, but it's what she's learned in that place of possible trauma or difficulty anyway, which has prepared her for doing the very difficult things later on for this other child. So I suppose it's about you

know how one parents oneself. Yeah and that self soothing or being able to soothe perhaps somebody else. One journalist referred to you both as TV to stage veterans. How does that fit? Oh I'm'm not mad about the veteran bit, thanks. Oh lord. No, no, as a veteran who survived a war situation. That's, you know, that's, we have done that. Oh yes, I guess. Well, Rupert Everett, my friend, says that, you know, putting on a play, it's like going into battle, I think is what it is. Oh, I would totally think that must be true true because I'm so delighted to have both of you this morning but I often think when I've finished watching a play like Backstrow that's so intense and emotional that if afterwards I have so

many feelings and emotions what must it be like for those that are creating it? Yeah it's tiring. Well certainly we did get whacked out in rehearsals and couldn't quite understand it didn't we? But we did make sure that there was a little space for us each to have a snooze. Tamsin Gregg and Celia Imrie there and Backstroke is on at the Donmar Warehouse in London until the 12th of April. Esther Jai's transgender daughter Brianna was murdered in February of 2023 by two 15 year olds in a park in Warrington. The killers were radicalised online. 16 year old Brianna herself was harmfully addicted to her phone despite all of her mum's efforts to limit her usage. Esther has now become a campaigner

for the safer use of smartphones for children and also for mindfulness in schools. She made the decision to forgive her child's killers and is now friends with one of their mothers. Esther joined Anita this week to talk about her memoir Under a Pink Sky, and Anita began by asking her why she wanted to write the book. I wanted to write the book because I have experienced so much in my life and Brianna also had experienced so much in her short life and we both struggled with our mental mental health and I really wanted to be able to put something out there that shows that

Do you know what life is life is messy? we are going to have things to deal with and we will go through situations that we're going to struggle with and To also kind of convey that hope that even though you might be going through something difficult at this time, there is hope and you will get through it. It's called Under a Pink Sky, why pink? So pink was Brianna's favourite colour, absolutely everything was pink, her bedroom was pink, her clothes were pink, her pens were pink and after after Brianna passed away, we, so it was February and soon after the cherry blossoms came into bloom and we've got lots of cherry blossom trees in my local area and they

were really, like honestly they bloomed bigger than ever and also we noticed lots and lots of pink skies and I, like it gave me comfort to kind of think that that was Brianna sending me a sign that she was okay, that she was in a better place now and yes every time I see a pink sky I instantly think about Brianna. You mention there that you've written about your own troubled past as well as Brianna's in the book and it is unflinchingly honest that you talk about your own drug addiction, social services being called on you by your own mum when your children were small. Why lay it all there? Do you know I think for me it was important to be brutally honest because like as say, that I think with social media, especially now,

we kind of only show the best parts of us. And like that perception of having a perfect life is like so prevalent at the moment. And life isn't perfect and we're not perfect. And even though like now I seem like I've got my head screwed on and we've got things together and I've been able to to deal with a horrific situation it's not always been like that and I have really struggled and due to not dealing with my own mental health issues

that's what led to going down like a slippery slope of drug abuse and like really hitting rock bottom and I wanted to explain this because I later in life found mindfulness and I really do credit mindfulness as to really saving my life in like such a period at such a terrible terrible period in my life losing Brianna and if I'd have lost Brianna earlier on in my life it would have been a completely different story because I didn't have that mental resilience, I didn't have empathy towards myself. And yeah, I think it's so important that we invest in our young people and we focus on wellbeing and even if we focus on wellbeing and have mindfulness at the root and we can really

instil resilience and empathy and compassion in children, then maybe, if me and Brianna had both had access to this, maybe we wouldn't have gone down the route that we both found ourselves. Yeah. You discuss at length the role that smartphones played in Brianna's teenage life. Tell us more about that. So Brianna definitely had chronic phone addiction and I can very confidently say that because I myself have been a drug addict and I could see all of the like the signs and symptoms of addiction like she was isolated in her room, she was obsessed with her phone, there was times when I tried to take a

phone off her and we ended up with holes in the walls. There's a time in Brianna's life that I go into some depth about in the book where she was accessing self-harm sites and she was accessing things that were encouraging her to have an eating disorder and she ended up losing that much weight that she was actually hospitalised. During that time, she didn't have any access to Wi-Fi. She only had text messages. And this time in my life was so difficult. I was at a loss, I didn't know what to do. And I was so upset that she'd gone to hospital,

but it turned out to be like the most amazing week in those years because I had my child back. Yeah, it's heartbreaking when you describe that Mm-hmm that that explain explain more how you felt you got her back when she was actually in hospital so she would she would text me saying and that she missed me and when I'm a time I'm a commons to visit her because I went to visit her every day and Then when I would go it would just be Brianna like she didn't have any makeup on she was like really comfortable and it was just it was just Brianna completely stripped back and

we would like have a cuddle, I'd just prop her up in the bed and make sure that she was comfortable and we would have like proper conversations and she was just so loving again. Whereas, I like I think the most tragic thing was that when she did come home, like she was so looking forward to coming home and she ate all of the food that she should have done. She gained weight and she was able to leave and as soon as she came home and she was attached to the wifi, she went straight up to her room and I lost her again. How did it make you feel then as a mother not having that level of control?

You do feel completely out of control and this is one reason why I've been campaigning so much about more protection for young people online because I think a lot of parents that I've spoken to feel the same as well that we've kind of lost our children in this online world and it's just not something that we can really safeguard like despite having parental controls on Wi-Fi and on even on phones like once you reach a certain age they want to have social media once they're over the age of 13 there's no argument against that and you just cannot like you have disappearing messages like on even WhatsApp and Snapchat the messages disappear how are we supposed to manage that how are we supposed to safeguard

our children? What scared you most about her online presence? I was really really concerned about who she was speaking to and at the time I didn't realize that she was actually accessing the eating disorder sites and the self-harm sites. I only found that out after her death but I was concerned about who she was actually speaking to online. And there was one time when I actually woke up in the middle of the night to go to the, sorry, to go to the loo. And Brianna was in her room with a light on. She had the light on in her room and I went to open the door and she was sat like behind the door with her phone so that nobody could get into her room.

And that really did like shock me. And I ended up emailing like a really supportive, lovely teacher that I was working with at Birchwood High School, the school that Brianna went to. And I said that I am really concerned I will come home one day and find both of my children raped and murdered because I just didn't know who she had access to.

And she just didn't have that kind of risk aversion where she like I would tell her you don't know who you're speaking to online and don't give the address out don't it but teenagers. She's young, so young. Can you also describe how one of the children who murdered Brianna had gained access to the dark web where she sought out real violence to watch. Is enough changing about what children can see on their phones? I don't think so no. Do you know we are taking a step in the right direction and there is so much currently happening and there's so many discussions around how we protect our

children online and I think this is it's a really great step in the right direction. It's not moving fast enough and like meanwhile whilst we're waiting for for like the online safety act to go through and and and all of these other things like how many children are actually being harmed and I would go as far to say now that I do really believe that we should follow Australia and ban under 16s from social media because I think it is an absolute cesspit. The book, Esther, is also at the front it says, A Mother's Story of Love Loss and the Power of Forgiveness.

And you have a remarkable capacity for forgiveness. Brianna's killers were sentenced last February to 22 and 20 years in prison. Neither expressed remorse, but you have since become friends with one of their mothers. How and why? Do you know during the trial I saw how the other families were impacted by what their children had done and I saw the grief that they were going through as well as me. And yeah, like that one day, that one tragic, horrific day that was completely senseless has just impacted so many other people's lives.

And it wasn't only me that lost my child on that day, it was the parents as well of the other children. And like we didn't reach out straight away and I think I did a statement and then they did a statement and then we eventually met up and it was important for me to meet her because we can tell stories to ourselves about the way that people are and I wanted to understand how this woman was and she's actually a really lovely normal woman. What was that like, Esther, that first meeting?

It was emotional. It was really emotional. And I really do take my hat off to her because I think it shows complete bravery coming to meet me. But yeah, I think that we're both glad that we have met. Esther Jye speaking to Anisha. Esther's memoir is called Under a Pink Sky. Nnedi Okorafor is a Nigerian-American award winning science fiction writer. Her book Who Fears Death won the World Fantasy Award and is in development as a TV series. Nnedi has also written comics for Marvel, including Black Panther, Long Live the King and Wakanda Forever.

Her latest book is Death of the Author and it follows the story of Zé Lu, a fellow novelist, albeit a fictional one, and explores whether writing a bestselling novel is a blessing or a curse. Nnedi Akora-Ford joined me earlier this week and I began by asking her about the main character in her book. So Zélu is a failed writer, a failed professor and she is paraplegic as well and she's Nigerian-American and she comes from this big Nigerian-American family that's very invasive, all engulfing. Slightly overbearing. Yeah okay fine we're saying that so okay yes. And so she's in the middle of this high-achieving family that aren't appreciating her maybe would be. Yeah not appreciating her with love. Yes.

It's always out of love and trying to understand her and having a hard time understanding her. She's very creative. She's very abrasive as well. She's very much herself. She's a lot. She's a lot. And her family, you know, works to understand her. You're going to read an excerpt for us?

Yeah, sure. Yeah. This is Zélu embarking on writing her new novel. This time it was different. She didn't want to write about normal people having normal problems, just to be told over again that her characters weren't relatable. She didn't want to research a world for years just to watch

it burn, so she didn't. She wrote about those who weren't human. She wrote a world that she'd like to play in when things got to be too much, but which didn't exist yet. She wrote a world, she wrote something else, something new. She wrote about rusted robots. Ha ha. And we have the book within the book. So I'm kind of reading two books when I'm reading Nelly's book, Death of an Author, which I'll come to why you called it that.

But it is a science fiction novel with Zellou, our main character, who is a wheelchair user, as we mentioned, she had an accident when she was 12. So she talks about basically how that can complicate her life at times. Why did you want to write about her and put rusted robots within your book? It's a lot. And it's a science fiction novel, but it's much more than that. It's literary, it's science fiction, it is diasporic. And I wanted to write about Zélu, of course. So Zélu, like my stories tend to start with character. And in writing about Zélu, there was just so much.

She has so many different aspects to her. She's paraplegic, she's Nigerian-American, and even within the Nigerian aspect of her, her parents are Yoruba and Igbo. She's a writer in a Nigerian family, which is a lot. So like, there are all of these aspects that come in that make this story so complex and it really starts with Zalu being a complex character. Her novel, within your novel, Rusted Robots becomes an instant bestseller. She gets money,

fame, even ways of making her life as a disabled woman easier, but it also brings its challenges. And she sometimes wishes she hadn't written Rusted Robots at all. How much of yourself are you putting into such experience? Fine, I'm going to tell on myself. A lot. A lot. I mean, Zélu was inspired by me, even though she's not me. She's very brash and impulsive. There are situations that she's in that were that I took from my own life. And the difference was the way that she handles them versus the way that I handle them. So she will speak her mind. She will say those things that need to be said. So that part of it I love. There's some other things, you know, she likes to partake in substances a lot.

She's got sex, drugs and rock and roll. Yeah, yes, she's very sex, drugs and rock and roll. That's that's Zéilú and that's very different, very different from me. And it was a it was a really interesting experience to write such a character. I loved reading about her. You didn't start life as an author. You spent much of your youth training to be a top athlete. You did develop curvature of the

spine which put an end to that sporting career, but you did start writing there. Tell me about the differences or any parallels that you see. Yeah, the way that I started writing was directly related to sports. I played semi-pro tennis from the age of nine. I was also a track star. I did the 400, the mile, the high jump, all of that. And my athletic career ended, and I loved athletics. That was my thing. And it ended when I had to have surgery for my scoliosis and there were complications. And that complication was that I woke up paralyzed, paralyzed from the waist down.

And essentially ended up- What age were you there in that age? I was 19. Wow. I was 19. And I ended up having to, it was traumatic. That was the, it was sitting in a hospital bed where I discovered storytelling.

It was literally that. I was just going into a dark place and I just started writing this story to myself. And that was when I discovered storytelling and I haven't stopped writing since. So I had to relearn how to walk, all of that. And so when I wrote Death of the Author, and I have this character, Zalu, in a lot of ways she is based on me even though she is different. One of the things that I do when I'm writing is I explore, I go into those dark crevices. I go down those dark roads. In this case, I was thinking about if I had never been able to walk again, what would life have been like?

That's how I came to Zalew being paraplegic. It's so interesting because I often think of science fiction or fantasy as writing about what ifs. Yes, very much so. That is often my inspiration to writing science fiction as well. That question of what if it's a very powerful, just expansive. Anything can happen. Yes, yes. So you do put some of your own experience, I imagine, into Zellu.

And I was struck by things, let's say, how technology intersects with disability or can have a positive impact. Driverless cars, for example. And I'm interested by how you imagine that. Do you put yourself in that time, in that place? I think, well, with driverless vehicles, that one I didn't have to because, know I'm from Phoenix Arizona and we literally have autonomous vehicles on the road yeah I mean I came to an intersection recently and there were five autonomous vehicles at that intersection so that is something I didn't have to imagine but one of the things one of the ways that I look at when I look at technology I look at it from the point of view of someone who's disabled

and how technology can make life easier. That's often just my automatic default of how I look at tech. It's not a difficult leap to take for me. Nnedi Okorafor there and her book, Death of the Author is out now. Still to come on the program, singer-songwriter Rory on achieving success in her 40s. And

remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you cannot join us live at 10am during the week. Just subscribe to the Daily Podcast for free via BBC Sounds. Now to the fashion loving friends and influencers Laura Adlington and Lottie Drynen. They started same dress different bodies in 2021 on Instagram because they were both having problems finding clothes that they felt comfortable in. For Lottie, it was due to bloating caused by IBS, irritable bowel syndrome. Laura instead was limited by what she found available in plus sizes. They began to film themselves trying on the same clothes. Lottie is a size 12, Laura in

a size 24. But the Instagram post became this huge hit and they have now turned the experience into a live show at the London Palladium. Laura and Lottie joined me this week and I began by asking Lottie how did they first meet? That's a funny story which we did check was okay to say on air first. So I was working on a campaign for to promote smear tests going to get gynecological tests and I decided as part of the campaign I was going to create vulva shaped cupcakes and I put on my Instagram stories I had an epic fail and someone said Laura she was on Bake Off she lives near you so I slid into her DMs and messaged her and said could you make me some vulva cupcakes for tomorrow she said no but then our friendship grew from there.

Good boundaries Laura and you can't say vulva on woman's error I don't know where you can say that. So you became buddies but how did this I don't know habit that became an Instagram phenomenon of trying on the same clothes come about Laura. It's actually Lottie's idea. I think she messaged me randomly one day and said I've got this idea and you might think it's rubbish, but I wonder if we tried on different clothes and show what they look like on our different bodies because we're so used to just seeing on websites, on catwalks, in magazines, one body type. And so we really wanted to empower women to show them that actually

you can look good whatever your size, whatever your shape, whatever your age. And it kind of started from there really. We did like a little try on of some summer dresses. In your bedroom, wasn't it? Yeah, never planned for it to go this far, but it just kind of took off. But with the dopamine dressing, as I've heard it called as well, which both of you are this morning. Lottie's in a red dress and a leopard print jacket. And we have Laura. She has a giant cherries on her t-shirt that she's wearing this morning as well. So very bright and colourful. But is it certain clothes that work for twinning?

Yeah, I think what we've definitely discovered along the way is, as women, we've been told since we were younger that clothes are designed to make ourselves look smaller or we use them to hide behind and we've had so much fun playing around because we're trying on the same dresses but it'll be one day it'll be Laura's style or mine we've had fun playing with our style and realize that actually style should be an extension of our personalities rather than just a uniform which I think it's been seen for so long but we have the sort of Laura talks about often sort of as a plus-size woman just hiding behind the black hoodies and black leggings

that so many of us relate to. So dopamine dressing has been a really fun thing to us for us to experiment with. So that's a really fun phrase. The other one you know we often hear about body positivity but you talk about body neutrality. Yeah I think Laura a lot of people don't realize that body positivity was actually a political movement in the 60s and it was about equal rights for fat women, for employment, for medical care and then really it got kind of commercialized and taken over and some would say whitewashed as well in the 90s and so I think what people have come to think of modern day body positivity is,

oh, I must love my roles, I must love my cellulite, I must love my big stomach and my hairy chin and my fupa. And actually, I think that for us isn't like realistic. And a lot of people don't really want to associate with that anymore. I certainly don't look in the mirror every day and love what I see. Whereas body neutrality is much more about function over form. So it's just, I have a body and how I look is the least interesting thing about me. Not always easy to do, still have days, we both do where we struggle, but actually leaning into body neutrality has really, really helped both of us. You mentioned Fupa, that's fat in the upper...

I don't know if I can say it. Pelvic, I'm saying pelvic, it's probably not pelvic. Let's go with that. Let's go with pelvic. We know pelvic area. Let's go with that. We know the area we're talking about. I saw the team behind us. We all know the area we're talking about. It's not like the regular role, it's the role below. The role below that covers the... yeah. So you're making this into a show at the London Palladium. I know, crazy.

Yeah. What's going on? Yeah, we did a pilot show last summer and it was so much fun and we basically, we realised even now we've put rules together where we're looking at catwalks from London Fashion Week. Even in 2024, 2025, we're still seeing the same, just one size body. So we wanted to create something really different and basically bring women together to, for the first time, hopefully they go into summer feeling like they're good enough as they are, they don't need to change their body. They can experiment with style and have fun and just feel really empowered.

So it's basically a combination of fashion, of female empowerment, we've got panellists, we've got a catwalk of 12 different women who are taking the same dress, different bodies, reels to life, all different shapes, sizes, abilities. They're just amazing. Everyone can feel represented. It comes at such an interesting time because I feel, particularly over the past couple of weeks, perhaps it's the amount of, it's awards season so you have a lot of glamorous celebrities on red carpets. But also in the papers, people speaking about that skinny has kind of come back in,

almost that 90s skinny. And we've talked about it here on the programme. Some of it, no doubt because of weight loss drugs. Yeah. And I just wonder in your field, is that something that people are talking about or do you ever feel pressure? Yeah, to be honest, I do. I can actually I think when they first came out, I was quite anti them. I'll be honest with you. Yeah, sure. But I think it's, I just, I don't, it's not black and white. I don't really like the way like the media is portraying like them as like skinny jabs or

miracle cures and all of that. And I think what I don't like is, if I'm honest, the people that are taken that don't really need them. It's not for the people that need to lose 10 pounds. I do know friends that have been on them and have said they've been life-changing and I think unless you've struggled with food addiction all your life and you're constantly surrounded by like what am I eating, how much, oh my god I'm not, I'm never full, I understand that they can be a real lifeline. What worries me is that we are going back as you say to this kind of 90s heroin chic and we're only seeing that one body type again and if you say, to this kind of 90s heroine chic. And we're only seeing that one body type again. And if you don't fit that beauty standard in that mould, it can make you feel pretty rubbish about yourself. And that's what we don't want. And that's why we're doing the live show.

Yeah, it's interesting because I feel you can get to a point of acceptance, perhaps. But then if something comes into society that's turning that on its head again, it's quite a lot of stuff to think about. We've lots of messages coming in. Shall we do a bit of same dress, different bodies? Prue, back in the 60s I was invited to a wedding and the fashion of the day I bought a pink petal hat. When I arrived at the wedding I found all six bridesmaids had the same hat. It just slid right in there Prue. Margaret, I attended a ball 50 years ago when a lady had the same dress. I felt really pleased with my look.

The other lady was about the same age as I am now, over 80, and I just thought, good for you, don't think I wore the dress again. I just got on and enjoyed the evening. But you know, you're doing it on your Instagram. Do you ever both go out dressed alike? Yeah, all the time. This is probably the first time we haven't been. I was kind of hoping. Sorry all the time. This is probably the first time we haven't been. I was kind of

hoping. Yeah sorry next time yeah. It is so lovely though and one thing we always say is a lot of people in us I guess just it's ingrained in us feel like oh the smaller person will look better but it's so great. I've seen actually there's so many styles that Laura looks so much better in and it's just showing that style has no size. And what do you find particularly if you're a larger size perhaps works better than the smaller size Laura? I think that's the whole thing we're about is that actually you can just wear whatever brings you joy, whatever makes you comfortable. Like Lottie said earlier I spent years and years hiding in black leggings and black t-shirts or a black smock top. But what

was the catalyst then? What was the change Laura that made you ditch the black leggings and the black sweatshirt which I felt at the end of Covid like lockdown, like will I ever wear black again? But anyway, continue. Well I was actually going to have bariatric surgery. Were you? So for about a year and a half I didn't buy any clothes and I decided quite last minute that I wasn't going to go down that route and I'm pleased I didn't. I think it's right for last minute that I wasn't gonna go down that route And I'm pleased I didn't I think it's right for some people wasn't right for me But at that point I sort of started to think okay

What would my life be like if I wasn't constantly on a diet? I wasn't constantly chasing weight loss and thinking that you know, my worth is tied to my weight and I just you know I just started to experiment a little bit more with fashion and buy clothes that fit me. And not just things that fit, but things that made me feel good. That's a really interesting point though. Buying the stuff that fit fits, right? Buying that size that perhaps is a bit bigger instead of trying to squeeze into something that is not actually the right size.

Yeah, the when I'm skinny wardrobe is depressing. Yeah, I used to think my life would start when I was smaller. I literally would say, all right, Laura version 2.i will be better, happier, have, you know, better relationships. Like I'll be a better friend. I'll travel more. I'll do so much more. And I really did put so much worth on that, like number in my dress or my jeans. But it's so interesting. So you decided not to have the surgery and that was the turning point for you. But what was the, was there something before kind of deciding

not to have that surgery? I wonder how the switch was flicked, if you know what I mean. I think that was a real turning point for me. And actually it was around the same time that I got invited to go on the bake off and it was kind of like a... Oh, wasn't that funny? Yeah. But I'd always loved fashion. I just always felt like fashion didn't love me because I couldn't buy the clothes. I just really went out there. I think that's changed as well as much as we moan. There's not loads of you know clothes around in both of our sizes. It is definitely better isn't it now? Yeah, it's definitely got a lot better even since something that I say that I realized the privilege that I

have. I've always struggled to buy clothes with my bloating and find something comfortable. But since working with Laura on this series, I realized the fact that I have. I've always struggled to buy clothes with my bloating and find something comfortable but since working with Laura on this series I realise the fact that I can go into pretty much any store and buy, take a piece of clothing off the hanger in my size and it's so difficult to do that when you're over a size 16 which is the UK average women sizing but they just do not cater for it and that's something that has really opened my eyes. Lottie Drynen and Laura Adlington and same dress, Different Bodies Live will be at the London Palladium on the 23rd of March. Now, you may remember author Bette Moran appearing on Woman's Hour back in December to talk about her new book, It Hought to Be You.

It had been inspired by her experience as a foster parent. She told us this story about fostering siblings. We were already gearing up to have more. We then got a phone call from social services saying, we've had four children, brothers and sisters, who've been at the police station all day. There's nowhere for them to go. Could you have one or two?

And we just felt like we said at the time we didn't even have four bedrooms, we didn't even have four beds, but we said look we've got camp beds, if they've literally got nowhere else to go tonight we would love to keep these children together. And they all came again an hour later, lots of running around making up beds and getting things sorted. And we it was love at first sight. Well, we had a huge response to that interview with lots of you getting in touch. And that included listener Emma Shaw, who told us what happened to her and her three siblings. I was joined this week by Emma and also by Sarah Thomas, who's the CEO of the Fostering Network, which is a charity

which supports foster parents and children. But first, Emma told me more about her story and the response she got after commenting on Beth Moran's video. Yes. So obviously, Beth was explaining how her and her husband, you know, took all these siblings together. And I just commented that that's what my foster parents did with myself, my three siblings. And, yeah, like you said, it got quite a lot

of attention, you know, lots of likes and people saying how wonderful it was. And, you know, yes, yeah, yeah, I was quite overwhelmed with it really. As were my foster parents when I told them they couldn't believe it. I just wanted to kind of highlight the fact that these situations do happen and it can have a happy outcome. Let's hear a little off your story then. You were placed in a foster home but originally split up. Yes, so we were placed in foster care, I believe I was eight years old. And initially it was myself and my elder sister placed in a home in one part of town locally,

and then my elder brother and my younger sister placed together in another home in the same town, but you know, sort of opposite ends really. We would have contact, I think it was probably weekly, certainly birthdays, etc. spent together as much as possible but yeah ideally you know social services wanted us all to be placed together because we you know quite close in age and we my younger sister was very very young at that point as well so. And then coming back together tell us about that particular home. Yeah so we were taken out for a lunch with our social workers all together and they just sort of said to us how would you like to all go and live were taken out for a lunch with our social workers altogether.

And they just sort of said to us, how would you like to all go and live together? And they said, and the house has a swimming pool. Oh. Which I think for eight, nine, 12-year-olds was like, oh, yeah, OK. And yeah, it just kind of happened quite, from what I remember it was quite a quick transition. And yeah, we moved in a few months later, I believe.

I left when I was 20. So even after being care leaver, you know, 18, my mum and dad, you know, they are my mum and dad now, kept me there, kept me on and supported me until I eventually moved out with my partner at the time. And yeah, we're just one big sort of integrated family. We get together every Christmas, you know, birthdays. It's wonderful. What did it mean to go into, I suppose, a forever home really, because you were there from the age of nine to 20 and continue to be I was, how lucky we all were, and how utterly terrifying it would have been if I'd been separated from my siblings. You know, eight years old, my younger sister was two at the time.

It's just that it gave us that real stability when we all came together. It was just more of the same, more stability and trying to keep everything as normal as possible, you know, in such an unusual situation. Indeed. And do you remember having to, I don't know, balance in any way, the Winters were the people who took you in, your mum and dad, as you call them now, but with your biological parents who were still alive at that point? Yes, yeah. I think there was some, you know, from my perspective at least, I think I had some sort of feelings of guilt almost to my biological mum. We didn't see our biological dad very much at that point. But certainly with our mum, we kind of, well, I felt a little bit of guilt about, you know, feeling so settled, you know, and I didn't want her to feel like I didn't love her or care about her or want to be with her because you know of course she still do as a young child but

I was also incredibly sort of welcomed into the Winters family, we all were and so yeah it was just I did feel instantly kind of relaxed and safe I think is a key word there. Safe, gosh, it's such a powerful little word, right? Yeah, yeah, definitely. I'm going to bring Sarah Thomas in here, who's the CEO of the Fostering Network, a charity that supports foster parents and children. You're hearing Emma's story there, I wonder what's coming to your mind? Oh, I think, first of all, just to say thank you to Emma really because for most of us we take our

childhood for granted but when you are able to share that story like that it's a really powerful thing to share with society and it really helps to raise awareness of fostering and the fact that we need a lot more foster carers so thank you Emma. And that is a message you want to get across? Yeah the experience that Emma had is one that we would want for each and every child in society and we have over a hundred thousand children across the UK looked after at the moment so a significant number and yet a dwindling number of foster carers so we need more people to come forward to become foster

carers particularly for sibling groups. Why dwindling first? There's lots of reasons for it. Some of the things are to do with the pressures on the system, the fact that social services is under a great deal of pressure and that obviously filters out to everybody who is involved in that sector. There's also lots of areas of improvement needed in the fostering sector around the allowances that foster carers are paid and other factors but

the primary thing is that without enough foster carers we won't be able to provide stable loving homes to children who are in the situation that Emma would have been in. Emma talks about her siblings well maybe first Emma I'll talk to you I mean what difference do you think it made having the siblings together, the four of you? I think honestly, if we had, you know, been placed separately, I don't think there would have been that feeling of a family, which is so incredibly, you know, important. And I think consistency is a key thing for children you know

growing up and just to have the winters really you know make sure that our home life was just like a normal family. But Sarah this issue of fostering children together. Yeah so we've we know that from a Children's Commissioner report a couple of years ago that we've got about 20,000 children who are siblings that are separated and that's one in three of those siblings not living with their brothers and sisters. There's lots of reasons for this. It's primarily down to the plan that is made for those children and whether there are foster carers with enough room in their homes. You know, you need practical space to be able to care for sibling groups.

The challenge that we've got is more and more often these children are living further apart. They might be living in different local authorities. They might be living sometimes hours away from each other. And that causes lots of challenges for the foster carers who need to try and ensure that they have a relationship, but nothing can ever be the same as living together and the connections that you will grow up with that go into adulthood particularly for children who have been removed from their families so they they may not be able to have contact or they may have little contact with their

birth parents or other members of their family you know that sibling relationship is a hugely protective factor that they can take into adulthood. When you grow up with your siblings and you have those relationships you've got attachments and connections that will serve you well right through adulthood and that's so important for our care experience population. I suppose at the moment let me just read a little of the statement of the Minister for Children and Families Janet Dabey says we want all our children to have the best possible life chances. Having spent 10 years as a frontline social worker,

I recognise how important it is for children to maintain support networks such as siblings. Local authorities in England already have a legal duty to ensure that siblings in care can live together and where that is not possible, they should promote contact with siblings as long as it's in the best interest of all the children involved. But is that happening? I think every social worker would want to say, I've done my best to keep siblings together. One of the challenges we have in the sector is that it isn't functioning at its best at the

moment. Our recent survey, we do the largest independent survey of foster carers, it's called State of the Nations, and we know from that that 94% of the fostering services told us that they do not have enough foster carers, particularly for sibling groups. The children's minister is also calling in an article I was reading that empty nesters could step in to help cope with the shortage. Yeah, definitely. There's lots of evidence that people whose own children grow up and move on as Beth,

the author, tells her story. They have space and they come forward to foster. But it isn't just about that. But even then, Beth had to do an attic conversion, if I understand correctly. And attic conversions are expensive. You know, there's a lot of factors that we need to think about. It's not just about the recruitment piece, it's about how well we're retaining foster carers and how well we support them, both financially and in other aspects, to ensure that they can care for large sibling groups and they can keep children together so that children have the best opportunity to

have those protective relationships for life. Emma Shaw and Sarah Thomas there thanks very much to them. The government is investing it says 15 million pounds over the next year into local authorities to boost foster carer recruitment. And to our final guest today, she is a singer songwriter whose music, sung by others, has featured in several popular television shows, including Cougar Town, Awkward and Keeping Up with the Kardashians. She has co-written top 10 hits for other artists, including Charli XCX. She is also an author and hosts a popular podcast about ADHD with her partner. My guest is Rory.

Her new album Restoration went straight into the top 10 after release. Her single Wolves about her mum's death went to the top of the iTunes chart. But her life hasn't always been this way. She struggled for years to be recognised in her own right as a musician and also battled drug and alcohol addiction. Now, at the age of 40, Rory is finally gaining recognition as a solo artist. And she joined Anita, who began by asking her what that's like. It was unbelievable.

I keep having to pinch myself and being like, are you sure? Women's now, are you sure? Sure you want me? I'm a wreckhead. But here we are, it's really quite cool that I'm living this story of a total 180 in life. How'd it happen? I got sober. I think that's many, many wreckheads

into having good lives. That's the moment when you finally, finally blow up your life to an extent that you can't ignore it any longer. That's what I did on the 14th of September in 2018. Walked myself into a recovery meeting and that's that. What was the moment when you knew that something had to change? I was in Ibiza for three days. I hadn't slept for three days. I was there for work, totally missed work, turned my phone off, was partying with strangers in a hotel room, cheated on

a partner, spent loads of money I didn't have. And I'd done this many times, but this time I'd, I can't do this, I can't hurt these people. I was so ashamed and disgusted at who I was. I knew I had to try something and it felt like a last resort walking into a recovery meeting, didn't know what I was going to find and actually I found a whole load of people just like me from 20 to 70 with all these same stories. And since then you've been writing and creating and getting lots of success. I think we should hear you perform live. Oh that would be... Shall we do that and we can carry on chatting? What are you going to sing for us?

It's actually a song about my sobriety journey and it is called One Drink Away. I'm six years sober now. Congratulations. Always One Drink Away so thank you. Thank you Rory. So Rory's just gonna get to the microphone and joining Rory is Charlie Manning on acoustic guitar and this is Rory with One Drink Away. Rory performing with Charlie Manning on guitar. If you have been affected by anything you heard in that interview please do go to the BBC Action Line website. On Monday's Woman's Hour, what would you do if you were a lesbian and needed advice in the pre-internet age?

Well, did you know there were telephone lines all around the country that you could call for help or indeed a friendly listening ear? We'll speak to writer Elizabeth Lovett, who tells the history of these helplines in her new book, Thank You for Calling the Lesbian Line and to Liza Power, sexual health and LGBT campaigner, also a longtime volunteer at one of these lines. Thanks so much for listening. Hope you have a good weekend. Do join us again on Monday at 10am.

Hi, I'm Namulanta Kombo, here to tell you that my podcast Dear Daughter is back. And this time, I'm joined by an all-star lineup of guests, each with some sage life advice and a letter for their daughter. Every mother has a letter in her head for their daughter. So it's really nice that that's being like expressed out loud. That's Dear Daughter's Stars from the BBC World Service. Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Dear Daughter.