Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: The Three Hijabis, 150 years of Female GPs & going braless

Episode Date: July 17, 2021

Three female football fans – hashtag ‘TheThreeHijabis - as they called themselves set up a petition calling for racists to be banned for life from all football matches in England. Shaista Aziz, Amna Abdullatif and Huda Jawad tell us about the petition which now has over a million signatories.As the Royal College of GPs marks 150 years of women in general practice we ask why more than half of GPs in the UK are women. We also discuss why women GP’s may still face issues like lower pay compared to men in their field. We hear from the President of the Royal College of GPs, Dr Amanda Howe and GP trainee, Dr Sophie Lumley.After more than a year of working from home during the pandemic, a third of women say they want to ditch their bra forever. Joanna Wakefield-Scurr, is Professor in Biomechanics at the University of Portsmouth she talks about the pros and cons of not wearing a bra.A Government challenge to a Parole Board decision to release Colin Pitchfork has been rejected - paving the way for the double child killer to be freed in the next few weeks. Pitchfork has served 33 years in prison after being jailed for raping and murdering 15-year-olds Lynda Mann and Dawn Ashworth in the 1980s. We hear from Philip Musson the uncle of Dawn Ashworth and from Belinda Winder, a Professor of Forensic Psychology and Research Director of the Centre of Crime, Offending, Prevention and Engagement (COPE) at Nottingham Trent University, and from David Wilson Emeritus Professor of Criminology at Birmingham University.Deborah James is a the host of the BBC's You, Me And The Big C podcast, a campaigner, writer and mother of two. She tells us about her recent experience of liver failure followed by sepsis and how she attended Wimbledon only 12 hours after leaving hospital.And we have music and chat from Bronwen Lewis a Welsh singer songwriter whose style sits between Country, Pop, Folk and Blues. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor: Siobhann Tighe

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. We celebrate 150 years of women in general practice. I chat to the forces of nature behind the petition to kick racism out of football. We have a musical treat for you in the form of Welsh singer-songwriter Bronwyn Lewis and bras, or rather no bras, as a third of women admit lockdown has been an opportunity to ditch them. What do you need to consider before you do

the same? There's no disease linked to a sagging of the breast or a stretching of the skin of the breast. But it is a psychological consideration for some women. They don't want their breasts to sag. So wearing appropriate support can help reduce the risk of stretching the skin. We'll also hear from bowel babe Deborah James on living with stage four bowel cancer and the importance of having her family close to hand. It really brought home the impact that people around us can have on our mental wellbeing that pick us up in our darkest moments. And I think we've forgotten a little bit about that, especially in the pandemic, especially when, yes, we've had to protect people, but actually 50% of the battle is the mental battle.

But first, this week, the Royal College of GPs is marking 150 years of women in general practice. More than half of GPs in the UK are women. But research from the Institute of Public Policy Research last year showed that women GPs earn an average of £40,000 less than their male counterparts. That's a shocking 35% gender pay gap. Even if you control for part-time work, the gap is still 17%, higher than the average in the wider economy, which is 15.5%. So why is general practice so appealing to women? And what is the impact, if any, of having more female GPs than male? To talk about it, Emma was joined

by the President of the Royal College of GPs, Dr Amanda Howe, and trainee GP Dr Sophie Lumley from the West Midlands, who finished her training this week. Amanda started by talking about the history of women working as GPs. Well, it started with the fight for women to get into medicine at all and many people have heard of Elizabeth Garrett Anderson and I think if you look at society there was a whole battle that went on in parallel about women accessing education higher education the vote and getting into employment because historically women tended to be the informal carers at home they might have been traditional healers and helping people in the village or where they lived but they weren't getting qualifications they weren't getting jobs in my lifetime alone you know I see I was one in

10 at medical school with 10 men one woman and you know so it's been a huge change. And I think a lot of it is about, you know, women's rights to enter professions and do jobs the same as men. Well, I was just going to say, what do you think it is specifically about being a GP as well? Because a massive increase from 1963, where only 9% were women. Well, some of that reflects the absolute numbers of women entering any specialty. But I also think the general practice, you know, it's a very varied job. It focuses on people. And we see people, whether it's a preventive job, a screening job, a diagnostic and acute illness, a long term illness. And that interest in people is often a cultural thing as well.

You know, women are brought up to, you know, be the carers, be the people-orientated thing. Having said that, of course, in GP and in society as a whole, I think we're now training everybody to be psychologically literate, whether they're men or women, and that's part of equity in our society too. Otherwise, you know, women get all the caring stuff and the men get the technical stuff, which again is not equitable. But I think women were drawn to general practice partly because of

that person-centred culture. And also perhaps because the career structures are a bit more flexible and a lot of women still have the double burden of caring and are they you know the dependence at home if you look at the literature the research often it's still forming to women although again I know a lot of men who also are shouldering that responsibility now. But I think some of the flexibility of the GP career, particularly in the earlier years when the hospital hierarchy is still quite strong, that may have drawn women in as well. What do you make of the criticism

that there is more female GPs because of potentially that women working part-time? There is a criticism there that it's led to poorer service in terms of not seeing the same doctor every time and staff shortages and also a lack of value for money in terms of what it costs to train you. You need to train. One of the arguments goes, you need to train two women for every man. Two things on that. I don't think the challenge to personal continuity is about the increased number of women. You know, we've got bigger, much bigger multidisciplinary teams over my working lifetime. And again, the model of the single GP who did everything, actually, forgive me, that wasn't always a great quality service. You know, as the opportunities for patients to get

better prevention, better screening better treatments have come we need the bigger team to deliver all that and I think we are working very hard at the college to look at relationship-based continuity and to give how to give the patients enough continuity so I when I see a patient if I need to follow them up, they go in my diary. And then when, you know, the job is back, it's done. Next time, if they want me and I'm around, they can see me. And if it's an acute problem, they see somebody else. And I think the public can see the win-win with that bigger team and more opportunity. And then the other part about value for money, well, most doctors in their working lifetime play more than one role,

whether it's looking after kids at home or teaching or doing service development. You know, I release colleagues to go and do other stuff while I'm doing clinic. And so I think that and that's true in the hospital as well. So I think the modern model of, say, you train three doctors for two full-time jobs is across the board. That's not just about women entering the workforce. It's interesting to hear your response to that. Sophie, you're going to be finishing your training tomorrow.

Why were you drawn to being a GP? Very exciting times. And I suppose there were lots of reasons I was drawn to general practice. Like Amanda says, it's enormously flexible as a career and it allows you to fit alongside personal responsibilities, but also leadership, management, teaching, research, all these sorts of things. And the flexibility of the career provides the opportunity to do. But I also just really enjoyed it. I started doing some GP training jobs and I thought, well, this is great.

I can see a child with a fever one minute and then go to see someone who's dying and offer them palliative support another minute. So it's got enormous variability. You're very autonomous as a GP, sort of running your practice and being able to change things for the better of patients and I have to say night shifts didn't suit me I was very grumpy on night shifts in hospital and I really liked working the sort of lack of shift work and working more normal hours during the day. I mean were you drawn to it for the idea of you mentioned just briefly there but this idea of flexibility potentially for the future. Yeah, definitely. And I've spoken to colleagues about it numerous times. There's lots of reasons that people pick specialties.

And I have to say, although I was in a privileged position, that I never felt I had to pick a specialty based on its flexibility. But that certainly was an appeal. And I know it's definitely one of the considerations that colleagues have had. What about your peers? More women going towards it? Is that the trend that you're seeing? Because there's also a concern that perhaps if you look at surgeons, the ratio of men to women, consultant surgeons is approximately eight to one. And the issues around status of GPs and how that's viewed versus something like being a surgeon? I think it's a consideration, but I certainly see lots of female colleagues from medical school going into those specialties.

My sister's a surgical trainee, so I'm able to draw comparisons. And I think that there are lots of reasons that people go for different specialties depending on what skill sets appeal to them. Of course, but very interesting message, almost bang on point. A friend of mine is a GP,

even though her dream was to be a surgeon, but she couldn't hack the toxic masculinity from surgeons. Amanda, you're a bit further on in your career. What do you make of that? Well, it has some echoes personally, I have to say. One of the things that drew me to general practice was the idea of being able to prevent things early and get an early diagnosis and do the stuff upstream of people getting really sick.

But the other thing that I didn't like much was that, you know, historical rather sexist hierarchy in the hospital world. And, you know, I could see the flatter hierarchy, the more equitable team in general practice, working with my colleagues, not being, you know, as it were, told what to do. So I don't know. I hope that the culture is changing in hospitals. You know, again, we don't want it just to change in general practice. Final word to you, Dr. Sophie Lumley, as you finish your training tomorrow. I did mention that gender pay gap uh it's the

fifth largest pay gap of any uk profession researchers do put this down to a combination of working hours age and women being much less likely to be partners of general practice is that a concern to you at the precipice of of you beginning this career yeah i think um you know most gp trainees will have an awareness of what's been in the news about the gender pay gap. And it's certainly something an area where something needs to be done. I have to say I've been on a training contract where I've been paid the same as my male counterparts. And I've not felt personally discriminated in any way in terms of the gender pay gap. I think that myself and colleagues feel empowered to take up opportunities that come up.

The partnership question is a difficult one. And I certainly hear conversations and involved in conversations about the merits of partnership and what things will look like when we come to think about being partners in the next few years. I think it's a very personal choice. It comes with a lot of autonomy and a pay up step. But it also comes with a lot of responsibility. a pay up step, but it also comes with a lot of responsibility. And again, those are very personal choices. And I think one of the fantastic things of being a GP is the flexibility to make those choices about finding the career and career pathway that fits best with what you need in your life. Emma speaking with Drs. Sophie Lumley and Amanda Howe there. Now, three friends who also happen to like football, hashtag the three hijabis, as they've called themselves,

set up a petition calling for racists to be banned for life from all football matches in England. This was in response to the shocking levels of racism that was directed towards Marcus Rashford, Jadon Sancho and Bukaya Saka on social media after their missed penalties resulted in England losing to Italy in the Euro 2020 final. Thank you. the football banning regime was changed and that people guilty of online racist abuse towards players would be banned from football matches. Shyster Aziz told me how she feels

about what they've achieved so far. The credit goes to the one million plus people who have shown solidarity. We are a collective of anti-racists now. We want to build this movement. So we give credit to them. We are three individual women who came together to start this ball rolling,

but they've run with it. And we're so incredibly proud of everyone involved. And we're very grateful that they've shown solidarity. This is what we need up and down this country. This petition

and what's happened in 48 hours and the subsequent announcements from Boris Johnson shows what happens when we come together. And throughout history, anti-racist movements, civil rights movements movements this is how they've been built and we're in a very precarious situation in our country right now where sadly hate has been thriving for too long and the fact that so many people have come together we don't even know who

these people are we don't know their names we don't know anything but we're extremely humbled so we give credit to them and thanks that big love and thanks to them, basically. Huda, what have people said to you directly? What's the response been? People are really just genuinely surprised at how quickly everything happened, how inspired they are. They feel heard. They feel seen. They feel finally that something is being done and just are very grateful to be kind of be able to be heard and have and be mobilized so we're all so grateful for every single one of you who signed the petition please continue signing we won't let the racists win and football is not only for the racists football is ours and this is who we are you know people of color women muslim, black and brown men and women of all genders, of all races.

And we're really keen to make sure that the government and tech companies and the F.A. follow through. You mentioned, you know, that the three of you are Muslim women. Amna, talk about smashing stereotypes. The three of you are quite an image talking to you this morning, but the fact that you are the ones leading this and have set this up. Yeah, how bizarre it is for me anyway. I mean, I think all three of us have been breaking stereotypes for a while now in our own kind of professional networks, in our own spaces, and continually kind of coming up across obstacles, but also coming across a lot of surprise. You know, the number of people who always seem surprised that we are articulate, that we are intelligent, that we can speak English is always, you know,

I was like, God, do you take it as a compliment that somebody thinks you're articulate or is it a bit of an insult? You know, you never know how to take it. So, yeah, I think, you know, the image of the three of us has been had a huge impact. And, you know, I was, I was in a separate call doing my kind of day job type thing, talking about gender equality in the curriculum, and a head teacher that was speaking there, he said to me, you know, he said something really profound to me. And I thought, God, you know, and he was talking about how he when he saw the image of the three of us in The Guardian the week before, actually, the year of the final match, when the shyster's tweet went viral. He said when he saw it, he felt so empowered because he thought that at least now things are shifting so that his daughter,

he can feel safe that his daughter can travel around this country and not feel that she would be singled out as a young black woman in this country. And I thought, wow, OK, so this, you know, so it's incredible how people have kind of, you know, taken on, you know, what it means to have visible women of colour on on that kind of platform and in, you know, in this arena. Shai Stubb, you are a huge football fan talk about possibly being one of the bravest women i know a muslim woman in a hijab that went to football matches on your own well anita my love of football started when i was very young like a lot of women up and down this country you know women are passionate about football i vividly remember a guy coming to our patio asian people love patios we know about that don't we anita so yeah a guy came to our patio he's a big everton fan i remember that very vividly and and

my brother and i were hanging out with him and by the end of the afternoon he decided he wanted to watch the football i think it was the fa cup final and so my brother and i watched it with him and by the end of that match i was an everton fan right easily persuaded um anita and then years later when i left my home city of Oxford, where I used to go and watch football at Oxford United, I ended up living very close to Spurs football ground. So I watched football there. I used to go there by myself as well. It wasn't always a very pleasant experience. I remember going to a North London derby. Wow, wow, wow. I'm a woman who's done some intense things in my time, but that was extremely intense,

let me tell you that much. And Huda and Amna, she got the two of you into football as well. What was the first match she took you to see? I went to see the Lionesses, near Germany, two years ago. And what was that experience like? I mean, I'd never been in Wembley Stadium and I live like 10 minutes away. And so it was brilliant, really hooked

and really, the atmosphere, I really can understand why people think football is a religion. It's totally like mesmerising and the sense of community that you have and the energy of the stadium. It was brilliant. But also imagine that mob turning. And that's exactly what we're really cognizant of. No, because we want football to be safe. We want society to be safe. And if we start with football, then we can carry on doing it anywhere, everywhere else. And then when did

the conversation start about this petition? We were watching the final England game at Hooder's home in Wembley. As we got into the final penalties, I think all of us kind of felt this real dread and knew. And the first conversation we had afterwards was this is going to be a huge racist backlash against these young players. And I think, you know, we went to sleep that night and, you know, and none of us slept very well that night because it was really hanging over our heads about, you know, what this team has done and, you know, incredible things that they have done, how they've inspired us. I mean, I've got two young girls and they were into the football this time. When I got up the next morning, it was Shaisa kind of, Anna, come on, get up. I'm always

the last up, by the way. And already Shaisa has kind of, you know, put together a text for this petition. And she was like, what do you think? Let's, you know, just read it quickly and let me know what you think. And we're like, yes, yes, yes. Let's let's do this. Let's see what comes from this. But it was jumping by 10K literally every minute on the first day. And we were like, oh, wow, this this is insane. I think we were at least for myself, I thought, you know, 5K reaching 5K would be great. And then everyone was like, oh, no, if we reach 30K, that would at least give us something to work with um but it was well beyond 30k within the first hour 1.2 million and counting yeah yeah yeah still counting yeah so it's yeah it's insane that it's you know just gotten so big so quickly

but i think it has touched so many people and you know lots of people are saying what happened in that game was embarrassing for everyone what happened you know, lots of people are saying what happened in that game was embarrassing for everyone. What happened, you know, in terms of, you know, the trashing of, you know, the Wembley, of the violence that erupted, the interruptions during the game itself, you know, the conduct of many racists and other people who used violence during that game, you know, that was all embarrassing as a nation. And that is not how we want to be as a country. And I think that spoke to so many people. Me speaking to the forces of nature who are the three hijabis, Huda Jawad, Shaista Aziz and Amna Abdul-Latif. I wonder what they'll do next.

Now, after more than a year of working from home during the pandemic, more women want to ditch the bra and set their boobs free. According to a YouGov poll, a third of women, 34%, admit lockdown has been an opportunity to ditch the bra, with a fifth, 20%, saying they now wear one much less frequently. Here's actor Gillian Anderson explaining why she will not be wearing a bra again. I don't wear a bra anymore. I can't wear a bra. I can't, no, I can't. There's no, I'm sorry, but I don't care if I reach my belly button,

my breasts reach my belly button, I'm not wearing a bra anymore. It's just too f***ing uncomfortable. Tell us how you really think, Gillian. Gillian Anderson speaking on her Instagram account. We really wanted answers. So Emma spoke to a professor of biomechanics, Professor Joanna Wakefield-Skerr from the University of Portsmouth. Do we need bras?

The challenge is that we have no muscles within the breast. So the breast is a lump of tissue, essentially, and it sits above the muscles on the chest wall. And it's only supported by two weak structures. And those are the skin and something called the Cooper's ligaments. So the Cooper's ligaments are internal structures. But really, it's probably the skin that's providing most support to the breast. And the problem with the skin is it can be stretched. So if we stretch the skin too much we can actually start to cause damage we can actually start to change the structure of the skin so that it

doesn't return to its original position and so Gillian was just describing there that she she's not worried if her if her breasts go down to her belly button and and actually there's no disease linked to a sagging of the breast or a stretching of the skin of the breast. But it is a psychological consideration for some women. They don't want their breasts to sag. So wearing appropriate support can help reduce the risk of stretching the skin. It can help reduce the risk of causing damage to those supporting structures of the breast.

And I have to say, there's a lot of people getting in touch to say, for instance, Wendy's also saying along these lines, she has to wear them, she's top heavy, she needs the support for her back. Yeah, we've certainly seen that from many women who wouldn't dream of ditching their bras. But actually, during lockdown, we did a big survey with over 4,000 women and we saw similar statistics that you just reported that women are making a shift from more structured padded push up bras to some sort of more normal life activities, that they'll still be wearing those more comfortable soft cup bras, and that perhaps they won't be returning to

those wired padded push-up bras. And women are suggesting that that is for comfort, one reason, but also they're suggesting now that they're less worried about their appearance. They're less concerned about the shape of their breasts and what their breasts look like. So it's quite empowering. So still need something, but not necessarily the same scaffolding, if I could put it like that. Well, I think it really varies from woman to woman. So when somebody's skin will start to stretch, it's very individual. It's affected by your age your

lifestyle it's affected by even things like sun damage and so it's very individual in terms of how much natural support you have in the breast and therefore how much support you need from a bra so and it's not always breast size related either so for some women with smaller breasts they could actually have less natural support in their breasts and therefore they need more external support so it's a it's a sort of very individual thing i mean i've mentioned about the potential to cause damage to the the tissue of the breast but there's also breast pain so half the female population in the uk experience breast pain. And we know that the bra, that a well-fitting supportive bra is an effective remedy for women that are experiencing

clinical breast pain. So a bra not only helps to protect the breast, protect the breast tissue from damage, but it can also help to reduce the symptoms of clinical breast pain. So it really varies because you might have some women, as Gillian said, who aren't bothered about stretching of the tissue, and those women might not experience breast pain. And so, you know, they might then choose not to wear a bra or to wear a more flexible, relaxed bra, should we say. Yes, but also in terms of sport, you know, there is just that need, isn't there, for you to be supported in certain scenarios? There really is, yes.

So whilst our lifestyles might have changed on a daily basis and we might be more static, more sedentary working from home and therefore we might choose to wear a softer bra that doesn't provide as much uplift and as much support. But what we must remember is if we're then undertaking physical activity or we're moving around a lot more, then we've got the potential to stretch the supporting structures of the breast more. So particularly in sporting scenarios,

it's really important that we are still choosing a well-fitting, supportive bra. I mean, a braless Olympics would be something, wouldn't it? Wow. I can't imagine the viewing figures for that. As a professor of biomechanics, are you a fan of the scaffolding or are you allowing yourself to go free? Am I allowed to ask you that? So I tend to sort of change between the two options. So if I am more active, then I'm going for support. I need that support.

I'm a breast pain sufferer. So I've suffered from breast pain for practically half my life now. And so wearing a well-fitting supportive bra helps to reduce those symptoms of breast pain. But I've got to be honest, when I'm at home, if I know I'm not going to be active, then I might opt for something that is perhaps a little less structured. Joanna Wakefield-Skerr there. We got your emails coming in off the back of this item. Pamela says,

No one mentioned my personal bugbear though many i've spoken with have confirmed they suffer the same irritating aspects straps that continuously slip off the shoulder requiring you to dig into your t-shirt neckline to recover a soft support with comfortable rib cage band would be heaven engineers have designed satellites and traveled to the moon, yet have failed to design a comfortable bra. I feel they're approaching the matter from the wrong aspect. If you want to email the programme, go to our website. You can go to our social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. Drop us a text during the show, 84844. Now, on Tuesday,

the government's challenge to a parole board decision to release Colin Pitchfork was rejected, paving the way for the double child killer to be freed in the next two weeks. 61-year-old Colin Pitchfork has served 33 years in prison after being jailed for raping and murdering Linda Mann and Dawn Ashforth in the 80s. A judge-led independent review rejected a bid by ministers to halt his release. The details of the two murders make for grim reading. In November 1983, Colin Pitchfork left his baby son sleeping in the back of his car and raped and strangled 15-year-old Linda Mann in Narborough, Leicestershire. He then drove home and put his son to bed.

Three years later, less than a mile from where Linda died, he raped and murdered Dawn Ashworth, also 15. She wasn't discovered for two days. The pathologist who examined her body described it as a brutal sexual assault. Dawn's mother, Barbara, spoke to BBC Radio Leicester in 2015 about her fear that Colin Pitchfork might be released. I would hope that would never be the case if he was released. I would feel that it was a matter of time until these feelings came over him again.

Once he's out again in the community, it would be quite easy for him to think, oh, I'll pick up where I left off. He has no right to any freedom at all because he took the lives of two girls' freedom and their choices and life and hopes and dreams were just taken away from them. And why should he be able to continue his life normally? The worst of it for me is that I suppose I haven't moved on. I haven't found that I've been able to

the only way that I can look at life now is looking into the past because I don't feel that I've got much ahead of me anyway now and certainly it's just a matter of having to exist and carry on. I see people with their girls and they have a lovely relationship and all that has been snatched away. Barbara Ashworth speaking in a documentary called The DNA of a Killer back in 2015. Now, Pitchfork pleaded guilty to both murders in September 1987. He was the first murderer to be convicted using DNA

and was sentenced to life in January 1988. The judge said the killings were particularly sadistic and he doubted Pitchfork would ever be released and yet he could now be out by the end of this week. Emma asked the uncle of Dawn Ashworth, Philip Musson, to describe what she was like. She was bright, she'd got her future ahead of her. She'd got something about her. She'd got a future.

She was going to secure that future and quite what it would have been, I don't know. Myself and my family have been left to speculate about this year on year. Of course. And we were just listening there to your sister and what she had to say about her fears that this day could come. How are you and how have the family been in the last 24 hours since this news broke? On behalf of my family, we're deeply disappointed that the parole board decision was upheld.

And what it says is about the worth of the lives of my niece and his other victims. I think there are some crimes, not many fortunately, which so offend public sentiment and traumatise the communities where they occur that rehabilitation isn't appropriate and the rape and murders of children, Dawn and Linda, was in my view one such crime. And I think the remit of the parole board ought to consider the gravity of the crimes and not just the issues about the protection of the public. So you have that fear that your sister was talking about back in 2015 about him being released? Well, yes, yes, it's an event that was feared. I suppose there was a risk of it coming down the track

at some point in time, and we've lived in fear of that. And we're conscious of the messages it sends. You know, for me, it says to sex offenders and child killers that they can commit heinous crimes, the worst they manage, well, in the knowledge that they may be able to resume their lives at some point, even though, as my sister was saying, they've taken, they've deprived the victims of their own lives,

which somehow it seems to offend a sense of natural justice. It also says that the human rights of offenders trump those of their victims and their families. To pick up on the point that you were mentioning, Emma, about the risk issue, it also sends a message that the authorities are willing to expose the children of the families who live where he's to be relocated to an experiment as to their safety. And, you know, I appreciate that risk assessments are made, but this is far from an exact science. and Zahid Yunus show both were assessed as minimal risk or the risk can be managed and that assessment was wrong. Yes, and the government have also fought this. As part of the statement from the Ministry of Justice,

it says the Lord Chancellor has launched a root and branch review of the parole system, which we'll report back later this year, and we are changing the law so that child murderers such as Colin Pitchfork face life in prison without the possibility of parole as the default sentence. What do you make of that? Well, I think that's the right response to offences of this nature. I'm surprised. I have sort of read, it might be speculation, that I've read that had he committed the offences today, he would have received a life tariff. And it seems curious to me that in perhaps more enlightened times in terms of sentencing policy, he would get a harsher sentence now than he did then.

Is that a source of immense frustration? Yes, it's an outrageous decision. That's the uncle of Dawn Ashworth, Philip Musson. I'm now joined by David Wilson, Emeritus Professor of Criminology at Birmingham City University. He's a former prison governor. And Belinda Winder, a Professor of Forensic Psychology at Nottingham Trent University, he's a former prison governor, and Belinda Winder, a professor of forensic psychology at Nottingham Trent University, whose primary field is sexual offending. She's also the co-founder and vice chair of the Safer Living Foundation, which is focused on reducing sexual offending and re-offending through rehabilitation and preventative initiatives. David, if I go to you,

first of all, what do you make of the Parole Board's decision? Of course, not all documents are available for us to see what they base that on, but with your experience? I used to have a rule of thumb that when I was identifying particular offenders as to whether I should support their parole application or not, would I want this person to live next door to me? And if I couldn't be honest about that answer in the positive, I would err against parole. And I have to say, I was incredibly disappointed by the parole board's decision. I sometimes think the parole board just doesn't get it. What sort of message does this send out to women and to girls? And of course, it comes hard on the heels of the parole board's desire to release John Warboys not so many years ago as well. So I was disappointed by the decision.

I don't think any of us, I know Belinda's work really well and I respect her work, but I don't think any of us can put our hand on our heart and say that Colin Pitchfork is no longer a risk. I haven't read all of the reports, but I don't think I would be prepared to say that given a number of behaviours that he displayed within his two murders. And quite apart from that, I mean, I'm absolutely somebody who believes that it is possible to rehabilitate people who have done the most heinous crimes. I absolutely get that. But some of the evidence that's been put forward in support of Pitchfork seems to me to include programmes, which Belinda will know much more than me,

are actually programmes that have been evaluated to increase rather than decrease offending behaviour. Belinda, let me open this up to you. What do you make? Do you agree with what David is saying there? What do you make of this decision? How do you read it? I don't agree with David, with all respect. I mean, it's not for me or indeed David or any individual expert to undermine the thoroughness and the care of the decision-making by the parole board.

To do so would really be to overreach ourselves. And I would say not only is it inappropriate for us to do so, given that I haven't read and David and other people won't have read the 1,100-page dossier, won't have questioned the psychologists and other staff, et cetera. So to do so would be not only inappropriate but really damaging I think to the public and most important of all damaging to to Philip and to the victims families who not only now have to endure this unimaginable sorrow and loss and I cannot even begin to contemplate what that feels like but it's going to be exacerbated by the thoughts that their horrors may be relived

by another family and um and i think for uh newspapers for tabloids for individuals who have not been at the parole hearing have not read all the information who have not questioned the people have not gone through this so very carefully that it just ups the the the fear and the anger and the concern and the worry of everyone, really. And I think that is really unhelpful. I do know, I don't know Collins, Mr Pitchfork's case in which I haven't read the records, haven't been there. But I do know how carefully the parole board make those decisions. I suppose there's two things at the heart of what you're both saying. One is whether you trust the parole board or not.

And the other, which we're getting a lot of messages about, is whether you think people who've committed these crimes should ever be released. If we put that latter one to one side for a moment, you do sound like, Belinda, that you have faith in the parole board. And that's what I want to come back to you on, David, because if I read to you what the parole board spokesperson has given us in a statement, they say, the parole board has immense sympathy for the families

of Dawn Ashworth and Linda Mann and recognises the pain and anguish they have endured and continue to endure through the parole process. In the reconsideration, the decision that the judge remarks that the terrible consequences of the brutal rapes and murders of two innocent girls will forever darken the lives of the family concerned. However, parole board panels are bound by law to assess whether a prisoner is safe to release. It has no power to alter the original sentence set down by the courts. Legislation dictates that a panel's

decision must be solely focused on what risks a prisoner may pose on release and whether that risk can be managed in the community. If I come back to you on that statement, David, are you saying you don't have faith in the parole board's decision making? Yes, I think that is what I'm saying. And I absolutely understand Belinda's position. And I would say this is why we have a root and branch review of what's happening at the parole board. I'd also say to you, if it isn't for people like us who are experts, if it isn't for the public to challenge these kinds of quasi judicial procedures and say they've got it wrong, then who is it for? Who is going to challenge those decisions? And let's also be honest, that statement could have been made by the parole board and indeed something very similar from the parole board was released when John Warboys was going to be released. And it was only because there was such a public outcry at the fact that they were going to release war boys that we suddenly saw

people rowing back. And I return. It isn't, as Belinda was saying, it wasn't just that there were problems with things like the SOTP. Just for our listeners to be in the swim with this, you're talking about the Sex Offender Treatment Programme, the core Sex Offender Treatment Programme. Which is one of the programmes that Pitchfork has gone through. There will have been other interventions, but crucially, Belinda, he has never gone through, as far as I'm aware, something like intensive therapy at HMP Grendon. He's never put himself into a position whereby his offending behaviour really would be challenged on a day-to-day basis. So I would simply say, hand on heart, I haven't read that 1,100-page report. There was a similarly lengthy report in relation to John Warboys. I haven't read that report, but hand on heart,

I wouldn't be prepared to say he no longer is a risk. Belinda, if it isn't for experts and the public to say, as David is saying, and to question these decisions, and also, as just been discussed, some of the rehabilitation programmes that we know he's probably been subjected to have been questioned or even withdrawn. Why or how do you have such faith in the Parole Board, especially when we've heard from the Ministry of Justice that it's actually going to be launching a big review of it? OK, so firstly, the Root and Branch review, absolutely. I think part of that is very much about Philip's point about was this an appropriate amount of time for someone to, you know, a prison sentence for someone who had committed such dreadful acts? And I absolutely understand that and have absolutely every sympathy with that because it feels it is always helpful to think through, to reflect and to review what people are doing. And I have no problem whatsoever with any member of the public questioning.

I guess what I do have problems with is with an individual who has not read all the evidence and dossier and knowing what Mr Pitork or anyone else in this case has done and his behaviour and his actions and all the factors and the information that we would need to make that decision is saying actually they believe that their decision is maybe better than the parole bill. And I just think that's wrong and you know we have the parole bill that is the society's gatekeeper for us and if we then start to undermine that in a way that actually fuels the fear and anger of the public I don't think that's helpful for anyone. Just just come back on the safety because we've got quite a few messages around people who've

lived in who live in the area where this happened and they are concerned. To come back to you Belinda on this, what about the idea that obviously individuals who've been involved, coming away from parole board for a moment, because that's also a big part of this. Yeah, it is. And, you know, you don't, people are using the word faith. It's perhaps not so much faith because that implies belief. It's a trust. But I would say that we are aware that people lie, deceive, manipulate. You know, we're aware that the more you have to lose, the more any of us might lie, deceive, manipulate. And that is something that we will be very aware of. I mean, in this instance, I understand there's going to be polygraph testing. There's 38 different license conditions.

And we know that this is a possibility. And that is for anyone in high risks, high pressure situations. And that is going to be something that people are going to be very, very aware of and mindful of. And David, if this changes so that people in the future

who do what Colin Pitchfork did can never get out, what do you make of this decision, I suppose, in light of if that's where it's going to be going, which it seems like it's going? Well, Philip was absolutely right. If Colin Pitch committed these crimes in the way that he committed them today,

he would have received a whole life tariff. There's absolutely no doubt about that. So actually, poor Belinda, who I think has done admirably in trying to support something which is probably indefensible, has done her level best to kind of put forward a decent argument in relation to supporting the parole board. But the parole board would not be in this position today because Colin Pitchfork, if he committed these offences now, would never be released. David Wilson, Belinda Winder and Philip Musson talking to Emma there.

Now, Deborah James is a woman you could say has defied death and stared it straight in the face. She's better known to some as Bowel Babe on social media, now campaigner, author and host of the BBC's You, Me and the Big C podcast. Diagnosed with stage four bowel cancer in 2016, she was expecting to live a matter of months. Four and a half years on, she's here to tell the tale. She told Emma about her latest brush with death. I've always lived with this dark shadow. I have incurable bowel cancer and I think people look at me and assume that it's okay, it's just a sleep and it won't come back to bite me um and then suddenly

at the next scan or the next corner or whatever we want to call it um you know I feel like recently I simply fell off a cliff if you want to say that it was one thing after another and and recently um things were not looking great. I knew my cancer was bubbling. The positive news is we had actually kept it to sleep for a matter of years, in fact, because of some new targeted therapy. And I always knew it was going to run out. People kind of think, oh, you know, this is tragic. But the reality is that I thought it would run out after six months. And I got two and a half years out of it.

So actually, it's such a positive story. But I always knew this day would come. And it came very recently. And I think as much as I wanted to deny it kind of in the distance, my liver started to fail. And unfortunately, I had a tumour that was wrapped around my bile duct. And anybody who has experienced liver failure or something very acute in that situation will know that it is literally a matter of days where everything can just shut down on you.

And you know what? Thank God for the NHS, because I was being rushed across hospitals to have a stent put back in my bile duct. And so that was the first thing. And the aim of the game was to get me back on chemo, which I achieved until last week I got sepsis as a result of just a plummeted immune system. So I'm currently sat talking to you. I'm nearly 40.

I can't believe I can say that, but I'm currently back on my parents because sometimes a girl just needs her mother to pick her up and put the pieces back together. And that's exactly what I'm doing. And yes, and you know, you are prolific on social media, even when the chips are down, as you've just described. I mean, we were due to have a conversation and you did text me saying, sorry, I couldn't. Yeah, I was I was dying. I've never had a text like that from anybody.

And here we are now. I'm very happy to say having a conversation um but you you you in between these uh social media posts because I know you're careful to show and try and show both sides you know you have to cope with that and you've got your children and I know you've got your husband but there there was something I read about you not being able to sleep and your mum just lying with you and and how important is is that that relationship between you and your mum to keep you calm during all of this it's crucial it's vital um and obviously my husband and and the rest of my family and my father but I think it's kind of you have people um who you can surround yourself by in the darkest of moments I recognized actually recently in hospital just what um so many people must be going through because unfortunately, and I'm interested to see what will happen on Monday, visiting in hospitals is still more or less banned.

And I was actually only about six days ago, a very dark moment where mental health wise, I was really struggling. It was kind of another thing after another thing. And I have to be honest with you. Yes, I had sepsis, but I just wanted to discharge myself because I think when time's precious, you just kind of go, do I really want to be in a hospital room on my own? I was going into very, very dark places and I kind of had decided enough was enough and I want to give up on life and it unfortunately took going to the very top of the hospital to get permission for my mum to come in but by seeing my mum who then did actually end up having to not hide but unfortunately had she left the hospital she would have been a Covid risk so she decamped in my room for two days just to keep me in there to get more IV antibiotics in me but that is the difference between living and dying and I think it really

brought home the impact that kind of you know the people around us can can can have on our mental well-being that pick us up in our darkest moments. And I think we've forgotten a little bit about that, especially in the pandemic, especially when, yes, we've had to protect people, but actually 50% of the battle is the mental battle. Well, no, indeed. But that battle also propels you and that need to make every second count to do some incredible things.

And I know 12 hours after you left hospital, because you do document things very well, you were at Wimbledon. Yeah, I wouldn't advocate that. Is there a huge amount of effort that goes into getting you dressed, getting you looking how you want, getting to the venue? Yeah, 100% in that instance, certainly. And I think I was lying there and it was one of those situations where, well, it's the Wimbledon final.

How often are you invited to the Wimbledon final? And it is literally a once in a lifetime opportunity. And I don't have the luxury of kind of saying, oh, well, it might come around again. I don't think any of us do, actually. And so you kind of have to grab it. But unfortunately, it does take a bit of an army to persuade you. You have that kind of conversation in your mind that says, can I do this? I can't do this. I don't have the energy. No, I need the help

and support to do it. And, you know, it's snapshots. It's snapshots of two hour windows where you feel well enough to make the most of that opportunity and I think people what people don't see behind the scenes is if I'm having a kind of rough period which I certainly am at the moment is it might take two days sleep in order to have that two hour window but people often say to me well you know they they see this image on social media of me as a very positive person and like you said hopefully I portray both sides of the story and they say how do you do it or what's your best advice and I say actually sometimes um you know I well obviously all the time I'm not positive all the time but the reality is that I can't think about the future I don't

know what the future looked like but if I thought about the future four years ago, I wouldn't be talking to you now. And sometimes in the moments of darkness, actually, I can only think about the next hour. It's kind of how am I going to get through an hour? And if somebody says to me, well, you know, I just can't cope with it. I kind of say, well, break your day down so much

that you put things on your list, like get up and get dressed because then you are already winning and if you if you achieve that and that's all you achieve in the day well done because sometimes we have such rough days actually we have to celebrate if we've just made it through the day and actually that's how I cope it's sometimes hour by hour second by second and then eventually it becomes day by day and eventually when I get back on my feet, it becomes week or month by month. The inspiring Deborah James there talking to Emma.

And finally, Bronwyn Lewis is a Welsh singer-songwriter whose style sits between country, pop, folk and blues. She starred in the BAFTA award-winning and Golden Globe-nominated film Pride, where she sang the theme song Bread and Roses, and brought Tom Jones to tears during her time on The Voice in 2013. She's proudly bilingual, and this year her TikTok following grew as she went viral for her Welsh language covers of famous pop songs,

including George Ezra's Shotgun, and singing the Welsh national anthem in the lead-up to the Wales vs Denmark Euros game. She took me back to The Voice and that moment with Tom Jones. Do you know he's Welsh through and through? You know, he's still got that accent, even though he's lived all over the world. And when I sang in Welsh on the show, I did bring him to tears.

That's on my CV now forever. Yes, of course. That I made Tom Jones cry. It moved me as well. I mean, you're fluent in Welsh. What is the importance of the language and singing in the language for you? For me, it's always been something that has come as naturally as breathing. I was brought up in a Welsh language school. My parents are learning Welsh and my grandmother was a very, very proud Welsh speaker.

So I've always been I've always known it was cool and fun and interesting, but I think it's just the rest of the world are catching up. Shall we have a listen to you singing in Welsh? Thank you. Diolch yn fawr. Absolutely gorgeous. Tell us about the song. Thank you. What's it called and what are you singing about? It's called Ardhu Edh Dydd, which means at the end of the day in Welsh.

And I wrote it in the height of the pandemic, in the first week actually of lockdown. And I was looking on social media and it was quite a toxic place, wasn't it, right at the start? There was a lot of worry and panic and people sort of arguing a lot. And I decided then to put my sort of feelings on paper I always say like writing for me and writing music is like a diary entry it's just it's whatever you feel and it's your safe place um so Ardhuil Di that just means love prevails at the end of the day that's the key

line of the song and if we look after each other through tough times then um everything will get better basically and you've gone you've gone crazy on social media i mean tiktok you went viral with your welsh covers george ezra's shotgun and then you sang the welsh national anthem um and you're on a mission aren't you well i am you know i started the tiktoks because well i heard that it was huge um I joined just to watch some funny videos of cats to be honest they're brilliant they're brilliant so um I decided to start doing these TikToks and I did the first one and I've always been singing in Welsh I've always translated songs into Welsh because I've played to audiences of people that you know you've not always not all

of them are fluent some are learners some don't speak Welsh at all. And I felt that if I translated these famous pop songs, that it sort of united everyone. It didn't make anyone feel sort of excluded. So I thought I'd put it up and then I thought, well, it's not good enough just putting a translation up. I want to teach them how to sing because the best part of inclusion when it comes to a language is teaching more people.

So I taught people how to sing Shotgun in Welsh and it sort of just skyrocketed the first day I woke up the next day and it had you know 100,000 views on TikTok and my fan base on there now is now 18,000 people which if you think of that in a stadium it's a bit scary isn't it really you'll be packing out the stadiums at some point I'm no doubt of that thank you at some point. I'm no doubt of that. Thank you. Try and come not away, back to your house, head on your chest. I like that best, still like it best. Through wandering eyes and different skies we stay.

And after all is said and done, just look at what we've made. Your heart's my home Your heart's my home Nowhere comes close Your heart's my home Your heart's my home That was Bronwyn Lewis with her new single, Heart's My Home, and her album is called Canvas.

That's all from me today. Have a lovely rest of the weekend. Join Chloe Tilly on Monday, just after 10. And if you fancy giving it a go, ditch the bra. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.