Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: The Whyte Review into British Gymnastics, Lea Ypi, Rosie Kinchen on horticultural therapy

Episode Date: June 18, 2022

Following a two-year investigation into bullying, abuse and discrimination the Whyte Review into British Gymnastics is finally published. We hear from ex-gymnast Claire Heafford, co-founder and campai...gn director of Gymnasts 4 Change, and Sarah Moore, lawyer and partner at Hausfeld who are acting on behalf of 38 former elite gymnasts against British Gymnastics in relation to allegations of abuse.In her prize-winning memoir, Free: Coming of Age at the End of History, Lea Ypi describes what it was like to grow up in Albania under a strict communist regime. Lea joins us to talk about her extraordinary coming-of-age story in Europe's last Stalinist outpost.Rosie Kinchen explains how horticultural therapy helped her overcome depression after having her second child. She discusses finding solace in a community garden.Her newspaper only launched 14 weeks before the outbreak of war in Ukraine, but the Kyiv Independent now has over two million followers on Twitter, and has been described by Time Magazine as: "The world's primary source for reliable English-language journalism on the war." We speak to the Editor of the newspaper, Olga Rudenko.A new film, Below the Belt, documents the reality of living with endometriosis. We hear from director Shannon Cone.Listener Christian Peake inherited a huge stack of canvasses painted by her grandmother, the artist Maeve Gilmore, whose artistic work had been over-shadowed by her more famous husband Mervyn Peake. As time went on though she became increasingly determined to get Maeve’s work the recognition she feels it deserves. Her grandmother's first exhibition is now on at Studio Voltaire in Clapham, London.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lucy Wai Editor: Lucinda Montefiore

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Starting point is 00:00:00 This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
Starting point is 00:00:41 Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. On today's programme, the author Lea Oupi on growing up in Albania under a strict communist regime, the journalist Rosie Kinchin on horticultural therapy, a listener on discovering her grandmother's hidden artistic talents, and we speak to a woman who leads one of the newest and most trusted English news services in Ukraine. Olga Rodenko, editor of the Kyiv Independent, reveals the personal impact of covering the war. But first, on Thursday, the White Review into British gymnastics was finally published. The investigation that began almost two years ago, led by Anne White QC and co-commissioned by UK Sport and Sport England, looked into accusations of bullying, abuse and discrimination
Starting point is 00:01:29 after numerous British gymnasts spoke out. The result? A damning report that makes for shocking reading. It details the continued mistreatment of gymnasts in Britain, including sexual assault, illustrating, as one gymnast put it, the child abuse of athletes that was taking place and how physical and emotional abuse within gymnastics in Britain was systemic.
Starting point is 00:01:53 From Olympians to local gymnasts, the investigation received more than 400 written submissions, which some claim represent just a tip of the iceberg. Of those, more than 40% described physically abusive behaviour by coaches, more than 50% reported an element of emotional abuse, and more than 25% included reference to excessive weight management. 39 of those cases were considered so serious they've been passed to local authorities
Starting point is 00:02:21 because of child safeguarding reasons or concerns of ongoing criminal conduct. To discuss this further, I was joined by ex-gymnast Claire Hefford, co-founder and campaign director of Gymnasts for Change, and Sarah Moore, lawyer and partner at Houseveld, who are acting on behalf of 38 former elite gymnasts against British gymnastics. I began by asking Claire for her reaction to the review. I'm feeling really vindicated. As you can imagine, being a whistleblower and speaking out about this kind of abuse is really difficult.
Starting point is 00:02:54 And I've spent personally the last two years alongside a whole team of other gymnasts who've been speaking out about these issues. And at times we've definitely felt overwhelmed with a sense that we weren't going to be believed. So to find so many of our experiences and feelings represented accurately in Anne White's review is very heartening. And it's a massive moment of both vindication and yeah, it's a good moment. I'm going to come to you now, Sarah. I mean, you're the 38 38 gymnasts that you're representing
Starting point is 00:03:27 must be feeling a similar feeling of vindication. But I mean, the levels and the degree of abuse that's been revealed is quite shocking. There must be some anger as well. I think that's absolutely right. I mean, Claire is completely right. And Claire's one of our clients. You know, the fundamental response has been vindication.
Starting point is 00:03:46 And I think there is a satisfaction in seeing these experiences laid bare. And Anne White really makes the point that these are institutional failings. These are not rogue, bad apple coaches. What she points out is systematic abuse over very many years. So there is anger and there's also a hope, I think, that things get better in terms of reform, but also as a legal team, we need to see substantive redress for those affected.
Starting point is 00:04:15 So not only should these changes be made looking forward, but British Gymnastics really now have to engage with the mistakes and the problems that have been created and the injuries suffered by those whom we represent. Claire, what are we talking about here? What has come out in the report? What's been happening? So two years ago when we began this campaign work, people would ask us, what does this abuse look like? How does it show up? And that was a really difficult thing to describe. But we now have legal definitions there's been an academic who's spent the past two years doing academic
Starting point is 00:04:45 research project on the reset on the gymnast alliance movement and the gymnasts around the world speaking out so those legal definitions are emotional and physical violence physical violence with boundary violation sexual violence and then neglect and one of the the major things that Nathalie Barker-Ripty has identified is the immensely damaging impact of the gaslighting. So often these are gymnasts who have reported sexual abuse and say that the sexual abuse has affected them less than the gaslighting and the constant ongoing years and years of being belittled and humiliated and told that they're worth nothing, which leaves gymnasts emotionally broken with lifelong confidence issues. And it's the detail that's come out as well. I mean, some of the things that just
Starting point is 00:05:34 jump out that have really left an impression with me are, you know, the body shaming, the hiding of the food behind tiles and also being forced to into positions you know being stretched yeah I mean all of those really standard procedures within the elite side of gymnastics so to gymnasts those aren't surprising the things that we want recognition for as I say is the fact that you're training often for a 10-year period with coaches who really make it their business to humiliate you and belittle you and tell you that the skills, you only have these skills because of them. What the report highlights is that it's a coach-centric system. And even the language that coaches use to describe gymnasts is that they've created a gymnast. That idea that the gymnast is nothing without the coach speaks to the absolute power dynamics that exist at the heart of the sport.
Starting point is 00:06:31 And it's those power dynamics that are so damaging and are absolutely so out of date in this day and age. It's disrespectful to women. It's disrespectful to young girls. And it means that it creates athletes who have no autonomy, no voice, no agency. Something else that really stood out for me and maybe this all plays into what you're just talking about Claire, the power dynamics, is the age of the gymnasts and I can see that you're both nodding here that 95% are under 18 and 75% are under 12. We're
Starting point is 00:07:04 talking about children here aren't we Sarah? Yeah. We're talking about children here, aren't we, Sarah? Yeah, we're absolutely talking about children. I think one of the, and picking up on what Claire said, I think one of the overriding impressions I was left with reading the report last night was that the culture which Anne White describes, which dictates how British gymnastics has worked over very many years, is really more akin to a Victorian attitude to the child. So you've heard Claire talking about the silencing of gymnasts, the fact that there wasn't, that athlete well-being wasn't a central issue for British gymnastics. It was almost as though, I think, gymnasts for very many years have been seen but not heard and I think that's the culture in which
Starting point is 00:07:47 this abuse has grown up and that's a contrast or it sits in contrast with every other way in which British society now deals with children if we look at the educational system if we look at schools there is much better safeguarding and yet this institution which has 75% of members under the age of 12, has been enabled and the system has been perpetuated in which abuse has caused so much damage. So I think it's a very shocking expose of what's been going on. Yeah, as expected, the document strongly criticised the governing body's previous leadership. The ex-CEO, Jane Allen, has been gone for a while now and British Gymnastics have committed themselves to making significant changes. But it makes you wonder, Sarah, doesn't it, what's been happening until now? Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. And I should say that the clients that we represent, their claims actually run back
Starting point is 00:08:38 as early as 1978. So whilst the White Review only picks up on the period between 2008 and 2020 to the last 12 years the allegations that we read in the report some of which are from our clients but are also they're also consistent and they're they're entirely corroborated by the accounts that we've got from other gymnasts over a much longer historic period so it does beg the question Anita why has this been going on for so long um you know we we heard yesterday that British gymnastics want to be judged by their actions and not by their words. But we need to see something substantive and we need to see something wholesale because everything done to date clearly hasn't worked or we wouldn't be in this position now. Well, here's a short clip of Sarah Powell, the current CEO of British Gymnastics.
Starting point is 00:09:26 This is what she had to say about the report. It was very difficult to read. Sport has been so important to me in all of my life. And to see that gymnasts had such poor experiences due to, and I will say it, the failings of our organisation. I was able to speak to some of the gymnasts this morning and to say sorry to them. And I wholeheartedly apologise. Claire, she wholeheartedly apologises. What does that mean to you? Not particularly meaningful. I've spoken to British gymnasts a number of times in the last six months and they've sat on this.
Starting point is 00:10:02 We provided to them our document, which has 78 recommendations and calls for sat on this. We provided to them our document, which has 78 recommendations and calls for change in policy, as opposed to Anne White's 17. And they could have started to take actions sooner. I think the reasons they've not been able to are institutional. They're to do with the organisation, the level of competency in the organisation, the lack of belief, actually, that there are still many, many people within the organisation that
Starting point is 00:10:30 don't believe this report was needed and felt it was unfair. You know, the issue now is Anne White's done a great job in exposing this culture. And I hope that the next step is that our community of coaches now really starts to listen. There's still an awful lot of denial going on around this and coaches feeling that this is unfair and unrepresentative. Can you take us into the world a little bit and try and explain to us how this culture was normalised from your own experience? There's so many things I could say about the history of the sport
Starting point is 00:11:04 and how we arrived here, that it was built into the sport from when it was first admitted to the Olympics in 1928 as a women's sport that was promoting values of dance and femininity and calisthenics. At late 1960s, it turned into a sport that was about risk and danger. The sport became acrobatised and many of the male coaches Late 1960s, it turned into a sport that was about risk and danger. The sport became acrobatized and many of the male coaches from the USSR moved over to the women's side, not because they had any experience with dealing with women, but because they knew how to deal with boys' bodies, small boys' bodies. And that was where this kind of desire for the prepubescent body came from, because the male coaches found it easier to deal with prepubescent girls.
Starting point is 00:11:47 So a lot of it is woven into the cultural fabric of the sexual politics of what the sport is. But in terms of what we found out yesterday, I think what was astonishing in its detail was the utter failings and non-existence of adequate up-to-date safeguarding systems so what we know anecdotally to have been going on is that if you have made some kind of a complaint or whistle blown on a coach you've witnessed an incident and you report it to British Gymnastics what they've never done is had a proper filing system so they've never collated multiple complaints against one coach one one gym. They have no ability. I mean, this is the really astounding thing. Zero ability to track across the organisation who's been reported over a 10, 15, 20 year period on multiple occasions.
Starting point is 00:12:38 Why do you think that's happened, Sarah? Is that because it's children? I think it's because it's children. But I think it's also worth just quoting some of what Anne White has found you know she talks about these her words not mine an insular organization she talks about a defensive myopic approach to criticism she talks about a cultural disregard for the athlete's voice and in her recent interviews with the board of British gymnastics so we're talking about their reaction to to the investigation very. She comments that she heard on multiple occasions the phrase, we only know what we know. And I mean, Anne Wyders said, that's no answer. And of course, that's no answer. It's not good enough to shrug your shoulders and say, well, how could we know? They had a responsibility. They were negligent
Starting point is 00:13:19 in discharging that responsibility. Unfortunately, the is that very many women and men have suffered significant physical and psychiatric injuries as a consequence but we have had a statement from british gymnastics in their written response to the white review sarah powell who's the ceo says british gymnastics accepts all of the recommendations and key findings we will now fully consider the detail of the review and put in place a roadmap that addresses the recommendations in full. We know we will be judged by our actions, not our words. Let me be clear, she says, this is no place for abuse of any kind in our sport
Starting point is 00:13:54 and coaching standards of the past will not be those of the future. For anyone who's been affected by these findings, details by the review, we have set up a free and confidential NSPCC helpline on 0800 587 6696. There is also further advice and support on our website for gymnasts, parents, coaches and clubs. More than 400 written submissions, Sarah.
Starting point is 00:14:18 This is only the tip of the iceberg. Do you think this report will give more people the confidence to come forward? I think it absolutely will. If they don't want to mount legal action. I mean, that's for them. But I think, I hope that it, as Claire says, it vindicates that experience and it enables a space within which people can speak out about this and access the therapies that they need.
Starting point is 00:14:37 And Claire, this is such an important moment for gymnastics. You said yourself you feel vindicated. I know that you're an activist. You're active because of your own experience as well. What do you want to see happen now? I want to see law change because Anne White has highlighted everything that we know has been going on in the culture, but it doesn't actually bring, there's nothing in there that will actually make this legally mandatable. There are so many legal loopholes. And as you said, and as Sarah made the point, schools have all sorts of safeguarding in place. And there are all kinds of procedures
Starting point is 00:15:13 that mean that the law applies to kids in a particular way in schools. Those laws currently don't apply to kids in sport. So we need to have massive legislative change so my primary goal now is to bring in mandatory reporting because I would like to see the administrators of sports being held to account if if it was a legal requirement to report mandatory reporting of any sexual abuse or any other kind of abuse in sport then we would have a leg to stand on in terms of getting accountability from the administrators who've overseen this system for 30 years. And you mentioned that Jane Allen has been highlighted in the report, but we've had leadership change multiple times during this timeframe, but there has been no culture change. So what will it take really to change the culture? Sarah Powell can say everything that she'd like to about
Starting point is 00:16:05 changing the culture, but it's going to be so difficult and it will only be possible if we do that in tandem with law change. I just had a message in from someone saying, I worked in an elite sports centre and saw the dreadful treatment of children in gymnastics. I've always told people who were wanting to join gymnastics that they were toxic. I'm glad it's being done at long last. You started, Claire, by saying you feel vindicated. Your own experience happened in the 90s. This report only looks back to 2008. Sarah's mentioned that there are cases going back to 1978.
Starting point is 00:16:38 I just want to know what the emotion is that you're feeling, because I can hear it in your voice, I can see it in your eyes. Just tell me what is going on on I just feel so validated um so much as I said of the abuse is about gaslighting and for me personally as as a 10 year old going through this witnessing the abuse experiencing the abuse um I was shut down I was silenced and And I took on a belief that I was a hateable person. And I've spent my entire adult life believing I was hateable. And today, I don't need to feel that anymore. Powerful words from Claire Hefford and Sarah Moore there. Now, our next guest is Leah Oopie, Professor of Political Theory at the London School of
Starting point is 00:17:22 Economics, whose prize winning memoir, Free Coming of Age at the End of History, describes what it was like to grow up in Albania under a strict communist regime. For the first 11 years of her life, Leia lived in one of the most isolated countries in the world, with Albania being Europe's last Stalinist outpost. Emma spoke to Leia and began by asking her why Albania was quite so isolated. It had become isolated, especially in the 80s. It did not start out as isolated. The communists had come to power in 1946 with the help of Yugoslav communists, but then Albania had broken ranks with Yugoslavia in the 40s, then with the Soviet Union in the late 50s when they de-Stalinised, then with China in the 70s, and in the Soviet Union in the late 50s, when they de-Stalinized, then with China
Starting point is 00:18:06 in the 70s. And in the 80s, it had broken ranks with not just every capitalist imperialist state out there, but also with every other communist country claiming that they had abandoned the path of true communism. And when you were born in 1979, you weren't given a name, a number, 471. Is that right? It's because I was born a premature child. And my parents thought that there wasn't much hope, but there was enough hope to call me by a number, not by a name. Well, you do go on, of course, and thrive. And you write from the perspective of being a very eager young student. You really appreciated your teacher, Nora in particular. What did she teach you? I was a good socialist child who was brought up to believe that Albania was the freest country in the world and that we had the responsibility to advance Albanian communism regardless of the
Starting point is 00:18:57 sacrifices that we had to make for it. There were scarcity, there were lots of queues, it was difficult to leave Albania. In fact, people who left Albania would be shot at the border. But we were told that all of this was a necessary sacrifice to protect the freedom of communist Albania and to try and give an example to other minor, smaller countries that could follow its path on the way to freedom. And also talking about sacrifices, lots of life included queuing, didn't it, for all sorts? Yeah, and there was a whole sort of norms that went with queuing. People would, for example, put objects in the queue because there were so many queues. You had to put an item in the queue while the deliveries weren't there.
Starting point is 00:19:39 And so, for example, a plastic bag or a bottle or a can of some kind. And then come back. And they would replace the people. And then when the deliveries happened, everyone was in the queue returning. And so the objects kind of lost their representative function and became people again. I mean, you remember all of this very vividly, don't you? Yeah, they were standout moments of my childhood. This was my childhood. And we remember these salient moments of our childhood.
Starting point is 00:20:03 And you come across so sweetly, if I can say, as so loyal to the regime around you and to what you were being told. I knew nothing else. And we were told these things about Albania and about communism. And we were also given through children's magazines and books some insight into the lives of other poor children in other parts of the world. And we were told that this was a world of exploitation, of injustice, of exclusion. some insight into the lives of other poor children in other parts of the world. And we were told that this was a world of exploitation, of injustice, of exclusion.
Starting point is 00:20:35 And so we thought we were privileged growing up in this country that was not exclusive and not exploitative. And yet your family were keeping things from you, were talking in codes, and you weren't aware really of, why would you be necessarily as a child, of what their political views were and in fact why perhaps your surname might be a problem. Yeah, I was, my father, my surname is Upi and my father was called after, he was called Jafer Upi after a former Albanian prime minister who was very important when Albania became a fascist state in handing over the sovereignty of Albania to the fascist occupiers. And I was always told throughout my childhood that the fact that my father had the same name and surname as this former fascist politician collaborator,
Starting point is 00:21:14 it was de facto the equivalent of the Maréchal Pétain in Albania, was just a coincidence. And it was only after the regime fell that I discovered that it wasn't a coincidence that this man was in fact my great-grandfather. My goodness. How old were you when you discovered that? Eleven and a half. And what was your response to that? How did you process that? It was very confusing because I had grown up despising all the class enemies of Albania. So we were told to fight the bourgeoisie and to fight the aristocracy.
Starting point is 00:21:45 And I discovered that both the bourgeoisie and the aristocracy were in my family. And so it was almost like discovering that you were the enemy of yourself. And, you know, there were other things, I suppose, going on, which made your family stand out, a certain lack of photos, political photos in the house. This is one of the earliest memories of my childhood was when Enver Hoxha, the communist leader of Albania, died. And there was people were crying, there was mourning in the streets. And I remembered that my family didn't seem as upset about it. And in fact, while we were watching the funeral, they were commenting about the funeral music, which at the time, I didn't really understand. But I found very strange that while the whole country was in
Starting point is 00:22:24 mourning, and that was this devastating loss for the nation, my parents only seemed interested to talk about who was the composer of the funeral march. And then I asked them, why do we not have a photo of Enver Hoxha? And they kept making excuses. They wouldn't say to me that they were dissidents, that they had always objected to the party. Which is what they were. Which is what they were. My grandfather had been in prison for 15 years, even though he was a socialist.
Starting point is 00:22:47 But I didn't know many of family members and family relatives had been persecuted. But I didn't know any of this while I was growing up. My gosh. I mean, it's just like two halves, really, of your knowledge, your identity, and all of that, which comes across so well in the book and why a lot of people have been able to,
Starting point is 00:23:04 well, even if they know nothing about Albania, they've been able to relate to it in some way. I think it's because it's a story of how freedom is often packed in ideological content. And it's really hard to tell what is true freedom from the messages that we get given about how should freedom be understood in each society. And that was my experience in Albania was that you were told that you're free. But then actually, then actually the reality was very very different and the whole book is really questioning what the difference is between the appearance of freedom and the essence of freedom which is an open process and an open search leia up speaking to emma there now you may know about the healing power of nature but have you heard of horticultural therapy? For the
Starting point is 00:23:46 journalist Rosie Kinchin the process of tending an urban garden helped her through antenatal and postnatal depression which she documents in her new book The Ballast Seed, a story of motherhood of growing up and growing plants. Emma caught up with Rosie and asked her what the ballast seed of the title meant. So in the 18th and 19th century, trade ships would carry goods around the world and on the way back they would pick up ballast in order to keep themselves afloat and keep the boat balanced. And that ballast would be rubble or sand or grit, it could be anything really, but often tucked away inside it were seeds. And so when they reached the port that they were coming into they would quite often dump the ballast on the way in
Starting point is 00:24:30 so they could avoid paying taxes and the seeds would germinate there or sometimes they would, some would never because the conditions weren't right but often they would germinate and it became a sort of hotspot for botanists to go and have a look at what was growing. A tax avoiding dump.
Starting point is 00:24:46 Yeah. Okay. That's, I mean, I wasn't familiar with it. That in itself is a pretty good example of how educational this book is from the perspective of all you have learned on your journeys with this. But why call the book that? Because I think it became, I could see the parallels between that and the experience of a surprise
Starting point is 00:25:05 pregnancy which is what happened. So take us to that because this is your second child and you weren't expecting to. Yeah that's right so I discovered I realized I was pregnant when my first son was was just nearing a year and I was already three months pregnant so there was it was a shock and it was a shock at a point when I was probably feeling a little bit unprepared for a big um like another life-changing um event and so it sort of set in course a series of events um that I couldn't I couldn't establish whether it the way I was feeling initially was to do with you know rational concerns about how I was feeling initially was to do with, you know, rational concerns about how I was going to get my life going again with two children in childcare and trying to get my career back on tracks after a big absence. And I was, I should say that I was in a very privileged position because I was able
Starting point is 00:25:57 to keep my older son in childcare for that period of time when I was off and I was very unwell. And I was able to focus on him and on myself and get better which you know I'm very lucky to have been able to do that because I know a lot of people couldn't. But in terms of distinguishing whether something was a rational response or not quite soon it became clear to you and perhaps I don't know some of those around you that while you were pregnant with your second you weren weren't doing okay. It would be safe to say. Yeah, it would be safe to say that I wasn't. I basically, it became, it wasn't rational. It wasn't rational. And it was quite extreme. I was very tearful a lot of the time. I was finding it incredibly hard to get through the day. And I was quite scared, really. I was scared. I remember Googling, you know, impact of stress on a fetus, you know, because I was so, I was in such a state
Starting point is 00:26:43 and I didn't know whether I was damaging the baby and then that would be, that was causing me to kind of an additional level of stress. I was, I was very anxious and, and worried all the time. And they were big, big, yeah, they weren't necessarily rational worries. Some of them were, and they didn't have easy solutions. So there were, I was going around in circles a lot. How did plants come into this? And when did they come into this? Because you obviously had to get through that pregnancy. Yeah, so I did get through the pregnancy. And I did. So I was in a queue for some NHS therapy. And I was waiting, there was nothing available. And the baby was born. And I was waiting to see whether things
Starting point is 00:27:23 would stabilise. And they didn't really stabilise. sort of, they changed a bit, but they didn't really stabilise. I was still feeling very overwhelmed and very worried about what I was going to do. And I had, I'd been curious about plants, I suppose, in that way that, you know, you are interested and yet completely clueless. I know it well. And so I started to sort of, I gravitated towards green spaces. I think a lot of people with babies do that anyway, because you're just, you have nothing to do but to walk. But eventually my pacing took me to a community garden, which isn't far from my home. And I found a horticulture, they were offering a horticultural therapy course.
Starting point is 00:28:00 And I thought, God, I kind of weighed it out for ages. I deliberated. It felt like a weird thing to do, if I'm honest. It felt like, wow, this is not something that I would ever have considered doing a year ago. But in the end, I did go. And I'm incredibly grateful that I did. The descriptions in the book of some of the people you meet on that course, because I mean, just to really paint your ignorance here, you didn't even know horticultural therapy was really a thing. And there's a lovely bit I thought you're very determined in the way you describe it when you go to the doctor and ask them to sign off when you're going to it because again you know as a
Starting point is 00:28:32 journalist you will have seen those stories doctors recommending other sorts of activities to help people with their mind because I know you were also trying to pursue and you did pursue we should say medical help yeah so I took antidepressants as well yeah so that was happening but this was something else on the side and the way you described the individuals who'd all come together I mean there's no rhyme or reason for why any of those people were together no not at all it was a we were a real eclectic mix but it was a it was a wonderful thing because you know when you there was women of all ages with nothing very much in common. Was it all women, actually?
Starting point is 00:29:08 It was all women in my group. Yeah, it was. And so there were women in their 80s with dementia. There were women in their 50s, some of whom were helping with the dementia group and some of whom were there with their own concerns. Some had physical disabilities. But what I found very helpful was that what was wrong was not the focus of why we were there with their own concerns. Some had physical disabilities. But what I found very helpful was that what was wrong was not the focus of why we were there. The garden was why we were there.
Starting point is 00:29:31 But it was a friendly group without artifice. Everyone was there because there was something wrong, and that allowed people to just speak quite freely. And so what happens in that kind of environment is, firstly, people are kind, and that was something I needed at the time but secondly people laugh it's life is funny when when you can strip back all of the need to sort of hold it together at once and life is sometimes that it's funniest when it's going wrong and and I've I'm incredibly grateful to those people because it was the garden healed me but the people healed me as well and I and I made some you know I met I managed to
Starting point is 00:30:05 find life interesting and engaging and and fun again and and the sort of a bit like a romance you you sound almost lustful to get to the garden at times you know to get out of the house everyone if they have been through and if they have a partner they have been through having a child and they're on them on maternity they will remember I mean I think I practically threw our son one day at five or six o'clock whenever my husband walked through the door. I mean, I drop kicked him, I think, across the door to go out alone just for half an hour and walk. And for you that in the evenings that would take the form of going to the garden. Yeah. So I then started doing an evening course and to try and to get a qualification.
Starting point is 00:30:43 And I was doing it at this point with no idea what I was doing it for like why did I want this qualification but I knew I really enjoyed learning I was there was something that I found very helpful about being at a point in life when you're supposed to have answers and everything was going wrong and just and putting myself in a position of learning of ignorance and and building up from there it was it was a very addictive feeling and it was really enjoyable and I did I I felt myself relaxed the moment I got to the garden. How are you now because a big part of the book is is about whether you'll be able to get back to your your main job which is Sunday Times and and what you do which is interviewing people so
Starting point is 00:31:22 sorry you're having to be on the other end of it I don't know how that's going for you right now. But how are you today? Yeah, I'm very, I'm well. And, you know, a lot of what I think I took from that experience was that sometimes a lot of it comes down to luck and chance. And I don't know why it worked better when I went back after the second one. Maybe I was in a better place. Maybe I felt more resilient.
Starting point is 00:31:44 But it did work. And I clicked back with the second one maybe I was in a better place maybe I felt more resilient um but it did work and I clicked back with the job and um it has been easier um this time around and you know I think but I but I think that I was unprepared for the bumps that followed that first one and I wanted um and I and I saw a lot of my friends going through similar bumps and I wanted to put something out there that kind of reflected that some of the turbulence that exists around that adjustment period of life before children and life after children and acknowledge the fact that that journey is rarely a smooth one. Rosie Kinchin speaking to Emma. Still to come, we find out why the US Department of Defence is funding research into endometriosis. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day.
Starting point is 00:32:28 If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, just subscribe to the daily podcast for free via the Woman's Hour website. That's right, it's free. Now to one of the women who is on the information front line of the war in Ukraine. Olga Rodenko is a 33-year-old Ukrainian journalist and editor of the newspaper Kyiv Independent. The paper was set up by a team of mostly women only 14 weeks before war broke out. Now it's one of the most trusted primary sources for English language journalism on the war, with more than 2 million followers on Twitter. Olga,
Starting point is 00:33:03 who's graced the cover of Time magazine, is trying to provide a window into Ukraine during this devastating time for her country. Emma spoke to her earlier this week and began by asking whether she was proud of what she's achieved so far. You know, Emma, it's a strange feeling because we did become an overnight success in February. But at the same time, we're so aware all the time of the reasons why this happened, the horrible invasion of our country. So it is so counterbalanced by the feeling of grief for the tragedy that is happening to our country that it's really hard to be proud.
Starting point is 00:33:42 Yes. And also the responsibility, I imagine you feel, to be that window into Ukraine. Yes, the responsibility is tremendous, of course. I mean, just to give you an idea, right before the war, we had 30,000 followers on Twitter, and we thought that it's a very good number. And now we have 2 million who are watching what we do, reaching out to us to get the on-the-ground journalism, local news from Ukraine in English.
Starting point is 00:34:10 I mean, we've always, of course, tried to get everything right, basically, because a mistake in these times can be very costly. Yes. I mean, the fact that this was set up at all was also a story in itself, because I understand you were all working together, a lot of you, on a previous newspaper and all lost your jobs? Yes, that's correct. Almost all of us who are now with the Kyiv Independent used to be the newsroom of a newspaper called the Kyiv Post, which was for many years the main English language news source in Ukraine. It was online. It was also a print weekly newspaper. And it was known to be editorially independent. And what happened was last year in november the owner who was a ukrainian businessman decided that he's apparently
Starting point is 00:35:13 having too much trouble owning an independent newspaper in ukraine that is often critical of authorities so he decided to shut it down and relaunch it with the oil staff that is going to do what he says. And all of us were fired overnight in November. And we decided immediately that we're not just going to go and get good jobs at other places. And we want to stick together and we want to create something of our own that would have the same mission of the Kyiv Post that would you know bring the news from Ukraine to readers around the world be the the window into Ukraine. As you say you know it's been you've been catapulted as a as a news outlet and you yourself you know on the front cover of Time magazine for instance I know you're here in the UK speaking to lots of people at the moment
Starting point is 00:36:05 about what you've been doing and how you've been doing it. And a lot of women on the team, I understand, as well. Yes, it's mostly women. I mean, back at the Kyiv Post, we usually had at least half of the news members women, usually more. I think the face of journalism in Ukraine is mostly young women. But also, you know, at the Kyiv Post, there were usually men who were at the top of the organization, like in many news outlets. So when we started the Kyiv Independent, it was me as the chief editor.
Starting point is 00:36:33 It was Daryna Suchenko, another former Kyiv Post colleague, as the CEO, who is also a young Ukrainian woman. Yes. And my deputy, the deputy chief editor of the Kiev Independent is another young woman who is in fact just 26. And we walked around and we realized that, wow, this is, you know, we didn't intentionally set it up
Starting point is 00:36:55 as an organization led by women, but it feels good. It feels good and it feels, you know, fresh, like a change. Yes. And do you know why a lot of the journalists coming through are women in Ukraine? Is there a reason, do you think? This is something we talk about a lot.
Starting point is 00:37:13 We agree that, unfortunately, one of the main reasons is that it's a pretty low-paid profession in Ukraine. And at some point, a lot of men drop out and look for something else. But also at the same time, you know, even when I look back to when I was studying journalism in a college in Ukraine, most of my classmates were women. It's just, it's something to know, as you say, not necessarily by design, even in your own organization, but it's a trend that's interesting for us to hear about. But of course, at the moment, what we mainly hear about regarding Ukraine is the war and what is happening on the ground. And I understand, though, even for you and your colleagues as well, that you were still surprised by when the war began, even though there were warnings, it still took you and your colleagues by surprise. Yes, absolutely.
Starting point is 00:38:05 You know, even being there in Kiev and hearing all the warnings and feeling this surreal build-up in the weeks before the war. And of course, every conversation we had with anyone, be it at work or over lunch or when we go out, every conversation would be, will they or won't they? And first we thought for a long time that the build-up of Russian troops around Ukraine was an intimidation campaign. Then when it started to become clear that it's too much
Starting point is 00:38:37 to just be an intimidation campaign, we thought that it is most likely that invasions can happen in eastern Ukraine, that at most Russia will try to take more lands in the east of the country where they already occupy part of the country since 2014, when they also, of course, annex Crimea. But for Kiev to be attacked like that, and immediately in the first minutes of the war, of this invasion, that was a complete shock to all of us.
Starting point is 00:39:09 How has it been just for you as a person editing the news at this time? It must be very difficult to keep some of your feelings in check. And in particular, I imagine your emotions as well in the sense of how hard this is to see what's happening to your country and to your fellow women and men yes it is but um you know I've been saying this being a journalist in a country in your country covering a war is
Starting point is 00:39:42 sort of both a blessing and a curse in the sense that of course you, you can't look away. You can't, you can't just turn the news off for a day. It's your job to look at every horrible picture, to report and read about every atrocity that happens. So you, you know, all of it gets to you and you can't look away. But at the same time, because you're a journalist, it kind of gives you a framework to look at things
Starting point is 00:40:09 because you can look at something horrible happening and while you're feeling affected as a human being, you're also starting to think about, you get all the thoughts like, is it being reported enough? Can I send a reporter there? Is there anything about this that is not being being known or told like how can we do a better job here so you you get all this work-related thoughts going and it kind of helps you process
Starting point is 00:40:38 what is happening yes i think that's a really interesting perspective and and you know one that of course you know, with colleagues as well, that I've discussed about different stories over the years, that at least you feel that you are telling the stories. And even if you're not processing them how you would if you weren't responsible for that, there is a way to contribute in some way. Yes, exactly. We are blessed to be in this profession at this time because it also gives us a feeling that we are contributing, that we are doing something to help our people.
Starting point is 00:41:12 That was Olga Rudenko, the editor of the Kiev Independent. Now to a new film about the reality of living with endometriosis, a chronic condition which affects one in ten women. It's where tissue similar to the lining of the womb starts to grow in other places causing debilitating pain and in some cases fertility complications. No one knows what causes it and no one has a cure. Below the Belt, a documentary which follows four people's stories as they battle endometriosis, has been made by the director Shannon Cohn, who also suffers with the disease, and lists Hillary Clinton as a producer.
Starting point is 00:41:51 Emma spoke to Shannon and asked her why she wanted to make this film. I've heard it so many times, endometriosis described, and each time that it's described, I'm like, wow, this is an insanity, right? Just to know that this disease is so prevalent, 200 million people worldwide, and wreaks such havoc in people's lives. And then we have no answers. We don't really know what causes it. We don't know how to treat it. And most people go an average of eight to 10 years before they even hear the word endometriosis. Yes. And I know you have had that experience and I too, I was, you were 29, I believe. And this is not the reason I just want to say why we're doing this, this item today, but I know you have had that experience and I too. You were 29, I believe. And this is not the reason. I just want to say why we're doing this item today. But I happen to have it as well. But this film is having an impact because, you know, I was, I think, 30, 31 when I was diagnosed. It's having an impact, I think, and people talking about it, because it's very pared back. It's for women's stories. It's also taking in the lives of those around them who support them.
Starting point is 00:42:47 And actually, what's quite phenomenal, having seen it, especially with one of the opening shots, is that you see a woman in pain just trying to breathe, just trying to get through it. And weirdly, that felt quite revolutionary to see. You know, you don't have to have endometriosis. I know lots of people have other chronic issues, but just seeing somebody breathing and trying to get through something is very moving. Right. You know, I think describing pain is difficult for anyone, you know, like you go to the A&E or to the ER in the US and, you know, I don't, you have like the little smiley faces and saying, how in pain are you? It's such a weird situation. I'm like, well, what is that? It's
Starting point is 00:43:31 all relative, right? So I think what's powerful about that moment is you're seeing pain without a word being said. You know that this person is in pain and that's really hard to communicate. I mean, and pain is a political issue. You know, health is politics. And actually that comes across so much in your film because although in the UK we have the NHS, actually when it comes to these sorts of conditions and the need to see specialists,
Starting point is 00:43:58 if they even know about it at all, which again, a point your film makes about how few obstetricians and gynaecologists could even perform the surgery that is said to help some women with this condition. You actually also see the complication in America, certainly, of women having to clean out their savings accounts. In one case, a father having to remortgage his house for the second time. And he's certainly too old if you like to be doing that with a lot of earning potential ahead of him, because there is no other way to finance trying to get through this. And is that why Hillary Clinton is a producer?
Starting point is 00:44:30 Because you want politicians to sit up. Absolutely. I mean, there are tremendous financial hurdles to good care in every country. And with Secretary Clinton, she wanted to bring this discussion into the mainstream. It's very important to us that we have all politicians of all political spectrum involved, because it's not a political issue. We're trying to depoliticize the issue, actually. So that just to say this is a human issue, you know, it's not even a women's issue, per se, it's a human issue. It affects women. Yes, predominantly. But at the same time, it's a societal issue. Every person listening to this program is affected by endometriosis, whether they know it or not. They may they may not have
Starting point is 00:45:16 it. I mean, there's a good chance they may, you know, but if they don't, then they absolutely love or know multiple people who have it. If they even know they've got it, of course, because I mean, I know I know for you as well on the personal side of this. You say it's helped your husband, who is also a filmmaker. I know you were previously a lawyer, an attorney, as you would call it in America. But it's helped him get to know you a bit better and with your disease and how you have it in your body and cope with it or try to cope with it. And I know also as parents of two daughters, it's made you think about how this may play out in your daughter's life because you tell me there are some studies for the very little that is known about this being passed on. Yes, there is an evidence seven times increased risk of endometriosis among daughters,
Starting point is 00:46:06 among mothers and daughters and sisters. So yes, absolutely. When I, you know, I first had symptoms of endometriosis at 16. But it wasn't until after my second daughter was born. And I read this article about this seven times increased risk that I felt galvanized to do something. And it says something about human nature, I think, for all of us is, you know, when we're suffering or threatened, we may not feel as compelled to do something tangible. But when someone that we love, whether it's our children or our parent or partner is threatened in a very real and dramatic way, then there's a fire lit, you know, under us like no other. And that definitely, you know, happened with me and my children.
Starting point is 00:46:46 And I started asking, OK, this is an enormous problem for so many people around the world. What can what can I do about it? What can we all do? And what can we do? I mean, you go somewhere in the in the film to talking a little bit about some money that's been released. It was from an interesting department in the US. Which department was it? Well, it's from the Department of Defense.
Starting point is 00:47:06 The Department of Defense is funding endometriosis research? They are. Is it seen as a matter of national security if women are walking around in pain? Well, the standard is that does the disease affect the US Congress, the US military, or the general US public? That's the standard.S. military, or the general U.S. public? That's the standard. And actually, we got the idea to do this because the majority of breast cancer research in the 90s was actually started to be funded by the Department of Defense. So if you do a bit of research and digging, you start realizing that breast cancer research, ovarian
Starting point is 00:47:39 cancer research are funded to a great extent by the United States Department of Defense. I had no idea. I sort of wanted to pause the film at that point and just take an image of that to check I hadn't misread it. I just wanted to flag one more thing while you were here, Shannon, which is one of the other most striking elements of this, and there will be others with other diseases who can relate to this, of your film, showed the long- term and other health impacts that taking pain medication can have. And not just pain medication, you know, just trying other things to lessen the impact of pain in the body and also, you know, living in pain, what that can be doing to you over the years.
Starting point is 00:48:20 So I just wondered, you know, not with fear mongering here, of course, because each person is going to have certain things that they're recommended to do. But I think that's a really important point when there isn't a cure. What else can happen to you health wise? Almost as collateral damage for trying to live in your own body. Yeah, I mean, that's collateral damage of not having enough resources, you know, pointed at a disease that affects so many women historically, you know, because we have no real answers. So basically, we're, you know, many different medications are thrown at us, and an attempt to fix us. And unfortunately, you know, they work to varying degrees, and almost all of them, you know, temporarily. So we're given, you know, everything from painkillers to hormonal
Starting point is 00:49:03 medications, a full spectrum of those, and an attempt to fix us, to make us not be in pain, to make us not go back to the GP or to the gynecologist's office again. Or to the A&E. Or to the A&E, all of these things. But really, if we had more funding, more emphasis placed on this disease to find answers, then, you know, a lot of that would be abated. That was Shannon Cohn speaking to Emma there. And if you'd like to share your experiences and thoughts about anything you hear on the programme, we'd love to hear from you. All you have to do is email us by going to our website. Or indeed, if you'd like to share a story that you think would make a great item for Woman's Hour, please get in touch. Now, what, if anything, did you inherit from your grandmother?
Starting point is 00:49:46 Listener Christian Peake was given a huge sack of canvases painted by her grandmother, the artist Maeve Gilmore, whose artistic work had been overshadowed by her more famous husband, Mervyn Peake, during her lifetime. Christian became determined to get Maeve's work the recognition she feels it deserves and created an online gallery on Instagram. Now her grandmother's first exhibition is showing at Studio Voltaire in Clapham, London. Christiane told Emma about her early memories of her grandmother's art. I suppose the overriding memory was her house. She used her house as a canvas, so all of the walls were covered in her murals and I think
Starting point is 00:50:28 that was probably what I remember sitting having Sunday lunch and just looking around there was so much to look at every surface was painted not just the walls also the furniture and the the exposed pipes were snakes and the door panels were windows with family looking in at them so i just that's my overriding memory sitting there looking at those and thinking wow she painted a playroom for all of her children at the top of the house and she did the same up there it was covered completely covered and we featured in it and our my father and my uncle fabian and my aunt claire and they all featured in it and different aspects of the family life,
Starting point is 00:51:08 Sark featured in there, the family donkey featured in there, family pets. And that she wanted to do for us. She just wanted to give us a room that was for us. My brilliant cousin Lewis has turned the photographs into a VR thing. I don't really understand.
Starting point is 00:51:22 So a virtual reality experience. Yeah, virtual reality. It's exactly that. Because the house is no longer in the family and the walls have been painted over, is that right? Yeah, the house was gutted. They couldn't keep it. It was in Kensington and nobody had the money to sustain that. You have a very arty family, we should say,
Starting point is 00:51:38 and your grandmother was surrounded by that and by a lot of men doing well. Yeah, by a lot of men doing well. Yeah, by a lot of men doing well and her husband, the writer and artist Mervyn Peake was, his career was what bought the money, very little money but the money into the home, his
Starting point is 00:51:55 commissions, his illustrations and his writings, Gormenghast novels, which she edited you know, they were sent back to her during the war and she edited them. She wrote them out by fingertip and babies, books and nappies. She said the three most important things in life. She had a huge part to play in his career. And actually, she was the woman who, the person who was chiefly responsible for a lot of his increasing popularity,
Starting point is 00:52:25 but she set her career aside in order to do that. So perhaps if she hadn't done that, she would have been more well-known, but then she was painting in the 30s and 40s, and women, it was tough. It was tough for her to have her own career. And is it right that the paintings that you were given that came to you went under your bed or a bed in the loft for a while? There are so many of them that they are everywhere
Starting point is 00:52:50 and I say that with respect but we inherited them after my dad died in 2012 and it's a wonderful problem to have but it is a problem when you inherit hundreds and hundreds of canvases because what do you do with them you know you don't want to flog them you don't want to kind of undersell her so I started to go through them when I was on maternity leave and I had underestimated her as we all had and I I could see that this was her work was greater than we had actually kind of always been led to believe, I suppose. She put herself second to him. His work is very well known. Hers is of the family.
Starting point is 00:53:32 So hers was always domestic. And I think it was not seen as important. It was her sons. It was the onions. It was the family cat. And now the domestic gaze and what she was looking at, what women were looking at, is seen as something valuable. But then it wasn't. Which is why you've fought pretty hard, I understand, to get her work, this exhibition and wider acclaim.
Starting point is 00:53:54 You wrote to us here at Women's Art. I did. I'm very happy you did. I did. I love hearing from our listeners. Why does it mean so much for you? Because I believe in her and her work entirely. She taught me how to champion somebody else. And that's what I wanted to do very much for her legacy and to honour her and the work.
Starting point is 00:54:15 I didn't want to have the paintings somewhere where they weren't going to be given the respect that they were due, but I didn't know where to go. And there isn't a door you can knock on. You can't, like I did here, you can't just knock on Tate's door and say, hi, hello, do you want to... I mean, I did try, but they're not, you know... Well, maybe after this exhibition. Well, you know, they've been. They've been. I mean, it's been absolutely brilliant, the reception to it.
Starting point is 00:54:39 And she's the only place I could go to when I first started was Instagram. I thought, I'd never been on it. I didn't have a social media account, not on Facebook or anything like that. And I started that way as an online exhibition, I suppose. You've got a painting of hers. Well, you've got many, as you say, but there's one particular of a woman and child that hangs in your home. Yes. Tell us a bit more about that. What does that mean? Where does it hang as well?
Starting point is 00:55:03 It hangs on the staircase that is actually in the middle of the kitchen. So it's the place that is most seen, I suppose, the central place. And the mother's breasts are exposed and the child is pulling at her dressing gown. And she's reaching out towards the kind of open door that is repeating the image and she has a rose in her hand that to me depicts what you want as a mother where you want to be but you're you're tied to this you can't get there for now yeah that's the whole yeah exactly but it's out there and you and she's repeating it through this image of the open door and through this rose, this beautiful rose of where you can get to. And the silhouette of the rose actually forms a gun,
Starting point is 00:55:50 which I know sounds extremely savage, or a knife, a weapon. But for me, I felt that lots of talk about motherhood is not very honest and I found it really, really tough. I've got three children and I love them dearly I love motherhood in many ways but I found the domestic very lonely and very hard and I would look at that and it would make me feel reassured you know she writes about parenthood and the constant demands of domesticity and the endless meals that That's something I really relate to. Your face as you said that.
Starting point is 00:56:31 I just really love it when women have a shared experience and it doesn't make you feel like you're wrong or bad for feeling like this is tough. Well, this is what this programme is all about. What was your name for her? Did you call her Grandma? Granny Maeve. Granny Maeve. And what would Granny Maeve make of having this show, do you think?
Starting point is 00:56:45 Well, this is the week of her 105th birthday and I think she'd be absolutely delighted and thrilled and I feel like I can go happy through the rest of my days knowing that I've brought her closer to people who can appreciate her work and see her for the wonderful artist she was. That was Christiane Peake. What did I inherit from my grandmother? Definitely her nose and lots of delicious recipes. That's all for me today. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. Remember to stay hydrated and join Emma Barnett on Monday at two minutes past ten.
Starting point is 00:57:27 I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.
Starting point is 00:57:44 How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

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