Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Tracey Emin, Ashling Murphy, Adult Literacy

Episode Date: January 22, 2022

Artist Tracey Emin shares why she wants an artwork she donated to the government’s art collection to be removed from display in Number 10 Downing Street. Last Wednesday afternoon, 23-year-old school teacher Ashling Murphy was killed while jogging along the banks of the Grand Canal in Tullamore, Ireland. The case has shocked the nation and revived concerns about women’s safety in public spaces in Ireland and the UK. We speak to Irish Times reporter Jade Wilson and veteran women's rights activist Ailbhe Smyth.In 1969 Muriel McKay was kidnapped after being mistaken for Rupert Murdoch’s wife. The story dominated front pages for weeks, and hundreds of police worked the case. After 40 days Arthur and Nizamodeen Hosein were arrested, and later jailed, but Muriel was never found. We hear about the re-opening of the case from Muriel's daughter, Dianne McKay.Woman to Woman is the all-star group founded in 2018 and features musical artists Beverley Craven, Julia Fordham and Judie Tzuke. They now have a new album and a new collaborator, singer-songwriter Rumer. We catch up with member Julia Fordham.Nearly seven million adults in the UK have very poor literacy skills – many of whom are too ashamed or embarrassed to ask for help. What impact can struggling to read and write have on a woman’s life long-term? Ginny Williams-Ellis is the CEO of Ready Easy UK and Sarah Todd used Read Easy back in 2015.Plus do you practice self-love? Thirty Things I Love About Myself is a new comedic novel by Radhika Sanghani. It's been inspired by her own journey to loving herself – culminating in not one but two nude portraits of herself.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lucy Wai Editor: Sarah Crawley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. This is your chance to hear some of the best bits from across the week from the programme that offers a female perspective on the world. Coming up, Tracey Emin on why she wants her artwork to be removed from display in Number 10 Downing Street. Plus adult literacy.

One woman shares her story and tells us how her struggle to read impacted her in the workplace. If it says danger and I didn't recognise danger electric or danger hot surface, the amount of times I burnt myself or someone shout don't go in there not why well it does say do not enter oh yeah oops and i'd pay the silly jack oh yeah you know i was just making sure that you were paying attention in my head thinking this is really not good but first the killing of 23 yearyear-old Irish primary school teacher Aisling Murphy has shocked the nation and revived concerns about women's safety in public spaces in

Ireland and the UK. Aisling was attacked and killed while out running on the banks of the Grand Canal in Tullamore, County Offaly, last Wednesday afternoon. Irish police have since charged a 31-year-old man with murder. There's been an outpouring of grief on social media and numerous vigils have been held, including in Tullamore, Dublin, Cork, Belfast and London. Aisling's killing has also amplified calls in Ireland for more to be done to tackle violence against women.

On Monday, Chloe Tilley spoke to Irish Times reporter Jade Wilson and veteran feminist activist Alva Smith, chair of the Board of Directors for Women's Aid Ireland. She began by asking Jade about Aisling. Aisling Murphy was a primary school teacher in County Offaly in the Midlands of Ireland. She taught first-class students, a class of children who would be about seven or eight years old in the local Dara National School. She was newly qualified and had started

teaching in the school in March 2021. She was also a talented musician and was involved with the choir and loved sports. She played camogie as well, an Irish stick and ball team sport played by women with the local club who said, you know, she'd been a much loved member of their junior and senior teams. Alva, I want to bring you in because I know that you went to a vigil. You actually spoke at a vigil over the weekend. Jade, I know you also went to a vigil. Just tell me a little bit, Alva, if you would, about the reaction in Ireland. Well, you know, it was an immediate reaction. It was absolutely countrywide.

I think you certainly couldn't say that there was one section, not at all. There seemed to be this rising up in genuine sadness in the first place, but also, you know, real horror and the sense that this can't go on. You know, I certainly wouldn't. I think there is a lot of anger there, but it's not that people were rising up in rage. They were saying this is horrifying and we absolutely have to stop it. And it was very organic. I know the National Women's Council said that they started getting texts and phone calls and emails in massive numbers.

And we know that this happens from previous experience in Ireland. When people really feel that something has reached some kind of tipping point, there is simply no way that we will tolerate what is happening any longer. And I don't think it's that surprising. I think that certainly in Ireland, we've been extremely aware during the pandemic of the huge rise in violence against women in so-called domestic situations, you know, 43% rising calls to women's aid, for example. So this comes at a moment when people's feelings and awareness is heightened. And I also think it follows on seven murders last year in Ireland.

It also follows on in Ireland, our understanding and our noticing and paying attention to what is happening, what happened in the UK and the terrible murder of Sarah Everard. And we notice what's happening globally. And people are saying this really is an endemic problem. It's nearly 50 years since I've been, you know, work fighting on this issue. Nearly 50 years. It is absolutely time. It is over time. It is overdue here in Ireland, in the UK, elsewhere in Europe, around the world, that we need to make men's violence against women and its prevention and ultimately hopefully its eradication an absolute priority. And well this is the problem isn't it Elva that every time there is a horrendous murder which reaches the headlines and let's remember for each one that reaches the headlines there are many more that don't. There is a huge outpouring

of emotion. People are angry and say things have to change i mean i was reading that leo varadkar the deputy prime minister in ireland was saying that things have to change we as a society need to face up to this is an epidemic of violence against women it's been going on for a millennia men and boys i think in particular have a responsibility to start to have a conversation amongst themselves about the kind of factors the kind of attitudes that give rise to feelings that engender men to commit acts of violence against women. The problem is, Jade, these conversations always happen, but then these murders still happen. And thankfully, they are few and far between. We mustn't, you know, exaggerate this. But what is really changing, Jade? Is there legislation that's coming in Ireland to try and protect women?

I know a new national strategy for addressing gender-based violence in Ireland has been in development for a number of months. It's the third one. And I suppose the killing of Aisling Murphy has added a sense of urgency to that. The Minister for Justice, Helen McEntee, has said the department would be publishing the strategy in a matter of weeks. This will aim to kind of promote a culture of prevention and the delivery of effective services in Dublin and across the country. I suppose, you know, it's a matter of how will those that'll require collaboration across every section of government, you know, education and social housing and justice and health. It's an issue across the board. Alva might actually have more to add on the work being done on that strategy. Because you've been involved in that consultation process, haven't you, Alva?

Well, not directly. I'm chair of a board, but certainly Women's Aid as an organisation has been very involved. And this is a process that's been going on now for, I think, approximately two years. The strategy is due to be launched in the month of March. The strategy, from what I know of it, looks, it takes up all of the pillars of the Istanbul Convention on violence against women. But somehow I felt over the weekend at the vigils that I was at and speaking at that there was a qualitative change, Chloe, because it's about going back to that question about will this just turn out to be another one-week wonder, so to speak. And I did feel that there was something a bit different, certainly in Ireland,

that people were rising up very spontaneously everywhere and that there was a real sense that this has to change. And the interesting thing is that there are more men and boys now involved. And this has been a constant theme. And I know that I certainly said, and it has been very, very, very well received by men that, you know, women, we're going on fighting. We're not going to stop. We've always been fighting this issue. But the time now, it is more than time

for men to come and stand beside us and to call it out and to take responsibility because this is not just some a women's issue people have said oh there should be a ministry for women and we'll put violence in there no actually let's have a ministry for men and women and gender relations and put violence in there because we and just just on that I think it's really important for us to maintain that full phrase, men's violence against women, because these are not crimes which happen all by themselves. There are perpetrators and the perpetrators in the vast majority of cases are men. And we have to not shy away from saying this. And of course, that doesn't mean all men, of course not. And it does make me very annoyed when I see hashtag not all men,

of course, not all men. But why are all men not standing up and shouting angrily at the men who do perpetrate these brutal crimes, that they must stop and participating in the moves to stop them and ensuring that they are punished when and if they do. As we draw to a close, Alva, just tell me a little bit about what was said to you at the vigil by other women. I know you spoke at one of the vigils, but what was the sense you were getting from women there about what they want to change and what they feel would make a difference to them being safe in public spaces? All the vigils that I was part of, women were saying men have to step up. First of all, this is so important education and awareness for boys and also, I suppose, for girls, but particularly for boys, we need to have in place a major

commitment on the part of government to provide the services and the funding. This comes up time and time again, because, you know, when you look at service provision, and I think the same is true of the UK, a lot of the services are actually funded by donations from the general public. And, you know, if we had health services where on a regular basis we said, let's have donations from the general public to fund our health service, there would quite rightly be a big outcry. But why are we having to fund these services to a quite significant extent? So women are speaking about that as well and saying we want to see proper services and we also want to see proper accountability. So prosecuting, ending the bail,

get outs for men, all of these issues come up. It's a whole spectrum, Chloe, that has to be attacked. And I believe that there is the will to do it now. That was Alva Smith and Jade Wilson speaking to Chloe Tilley there. Now artist Tracy Emin says she wants an artwork she donated to the government's art collection to be removed from display in number 10 Downing Street titled More Passion. It's a neon artwork that was installed in Downing Street in 2011 when David Cameron was Prime Minister. On Wednesday, she posted on Instagram that she wants it taken down because the current situation is shameful and spoke to Emma in her first broadcast interview about the situation. Here she explains what she'd like to happen.

Well, I don't actually want the neon back because I donated it to the government's art collection. And what people have to understand is you know if Keir Starmer was to become prime minister next week and he liked my neon it's still hanging there that when you give a work to the or the government arts collection has a work of yours it's for any government it's for time in memorial they hang it in embassies schools hospitals all over the place so I don't want the work back because I donated it. I would simply like at the moment for it to be taken down because a neon is notoriously like

for a party atmosphere. You have them in fun fairs, casinos, bars or whatever. And I really do not feel that number 10 needs any encouragement on this level. So removed from display with the news that's going on around the parties? Yeah, not just that. It's just like their behaviour is pretty shameful. I just, you know, people are really genuinely upset about this. And it's not about a political thing it's about an it's a moral ethical thing people had to watch their loved ones be buried on their telephone right or be cremated on their telephone they went to their husbands their wives their mothers their brothers their lover's funeral by watching it on a telephone the The Queen went to her husband's funeral and sat there stoically alone

while they were having a party. It makes no sense. It's just so disrespectful. There is a lot of anger and the Prime Minister last week talked about the party, also apologised with regards to that anger, but has then gone on to talk about not being sure that rules were being broken.

And everybody's talking about waiting for this one woman, Sue Gray, the civil servant, to give back this report and report her findings. We're expecting that next week. I suppose the question I had for you is if you say that you feel you just don't want this hanging there do you have that sort of control are you able to make that request i don't and also i know for a fact that boris johnson likes it hanging there do you how do you know that because he told me right so um you know and also the reason why my work is hanging there is because when you have a new prime minister prime minister chooses work from the government arts collection david cameron chose a piece of my work but there wasn't the he wanted a neon there wasn't one so i donated one to the government arts collection and it's hanging in 10 downing street and i have to be honest i'm quite proud of that because dignities all kinds of people go to 10 Downing Street and at the time

I thought wow it's making Britain look sort of cool and you know on a different level in terms of contemporary art David Cameron's government had a very different attitude towards art and contemporary art to what this government does this government actually doesn't think that art should be in schools doesn't think that art should be on the school curriculum doesn't value art doesn't value culture and by me saying this i'm just proving how important art and culture is so i've got my own agenda here as well so we see i'm sorry that that basis for for what you've just said about this government not valuing art is is based on because we're going off slightly into a different direction yeah what's that yeah. What's that based on? Well, art makes people feel good, especially in times during the lockdowns,

all the museums were closed. Every aspect of culture was shut down. Art was compared to night... Museums were compared to nightclubs. So when you say that this government's not valuing that, you're talking about how the lockdown affected those institutions. Yeah, and how it affected people mentally as well to have culture and art taken away from them. And you posted this, as I mentioned, on your Instagram.

But are you able to make this request to the prime minister? Are you able to do that yourself? Well, yeah, I can just write a letter, can't I? Are you going to do that yourself well yeah i can just write a letter can't i but are you going to do that yeah i might do but i have a feeling that my voice is very loud and clear and this also goes to show one little instagram uh posts from me can cause this kind of um attention because people agree with me people agree with me that that this behaviour from this present government is shameful. So just to be clear, you do not want your neon sign, which says more passion hanging in this Downing Street at this time?

No, I don't. I want it taken down. And if this government, I'll tell you what they need. They need more compassion. That's what they need they need more compassion that's what they need not more passion they don't need more party atmospheres and they don't need to that all of us most of us are obeying the rules in every single way because this pandemic has affected everybody so terribly whether it's financially whether it's health-wise you know whether it's people dying or whatever and this government doesn't seem to care about that and it it's financially, whether it's health-wise, you know, whether it's people dying or whatever. And this government doesn't seem to care about that.

And it's proven it as well. Every day is something new. A lot of people will agree with you. A lot of people may also have different views because they may say on balance, of course, the vaccine programme and other ways that the pandemic has been handled has been okay. And it's been, some people have seen the messages

on the come into the text console here at Women's Hour myself. Some people have said, well, they were having a very stressful time. Perhaps they, you know, needed to have drinks together. I'm representing those views as well. And there's some saying there's nobody in the wings, Tracey Emin, ready to take over. And I'd rather have this prime minister at this moment. If they wanted to let off steam and needed to have a few drinks, probably so did other people too. Maybe people needed to go to a funeral and say goodbye to someone they love. That isn't asking too much. So what I'm saying is they could have done what they were doing,

but actually made it quite clear what they were doing and be quite transparent as well. That was Tracey Emin. Now, on the 29th of December 1969, 55-year-old housewife Muriel Mackay disappeared from her home in Wimbledon, South London. It quickly became clear that she'd been mistaken for the wife of newspaper tycoon Rupert Murdoch by kidnappers. Muriel was in fact married to Murdoch's right-hand man, fellow Australian Alec Mackay. The story was all over the front pages for weeks, with reporters camped outside the house and hundreds of police working the case.

After 40 days of threatening calls to her frantic family, ransom demands and botched money drops, brothers Arthur and Nizamuddin Hussain were arrested. Muriel was not found and presumed dead. The two men were convicted on all charges and given life sentences. However, they never confessed to their crimes or revealed the whereabouts of Mrs Mackay's body, until now. Diane Mackay is Muriel's daughter and spoke to Chloe. She explained how the case was reopened. Well, in fact, we reopened it. We saw on the film that had been made and shown on Sky, we saw that this man was still alive, the youngest brother. And we had imagined, or had obviously killed him off in our memories, but we'd imagined by now he'd be gone, but he wasn't.

He was there and he was talking. So we had a chat and said, why don't we go and talk to him? He's still alive. He's speaking. So we decided to do it very quickly because he perhaps wasn't in the best of health. So we employed a lawyer who knew Trinidad very well and is married to a Trinidadian. And he's been wonderful.

He went and he made a friend out of him. A friend, I mean, you know, he made a relationship. And he got him to start to speak and remember things from 51 years ago. And it's the most extraordinary thing. But he has come up in detail with conversations he had with my mother. I mean, after 51 years of denial and serving a prison sentence, and he was still denying when we first met him. But gradually we've worked on him by this lawyer,

and we've made many Zoom calls and spoken with him. That was difficult. But we have our aim, and it's our mission, is to find my mother's burial place and to hear what happened to her. What was it about? What happened? And it had haunted me all my life that she had probably been tied up, thrown in a boot of a car and driven miles in the dark

by these strange people. And I knew her so well, I wouldn't know exactly how she suffered because I suffered with her. And it was almost a relief for him to tell me, no, there was no violence. She came with us. We had a conversation in the car. She told me various things. He spoke in great detail about what he'd spoken to her about, or she'd spoken to him, really. She tried to draw him out. And it's just incredible what's come out. I mean, it was amazing. And gradually,

obviously, his memory was opening up. And he was delivering us what we needed, because what I needed was to know, how did my mother die? Where was she buried? And what was that terrible journey like for her? Of course, and you still need those answers. Of course you still need those answers. I wonder if I can just take you back to the time when your mum did disappear because you've talked about the awful anxiety that you obviously had. I understand that your mum actually heard a television appeal that you made when she was being held.

Yes. He told us that she saw us on television. And my brother had then arrived from Australia, so it was the whole family, my father, me, and we were on the TV news, I think, about six o'clock in the evening. And he'd taken her by the fire, to sit by the fire. I mean, he didn't keep her in the shed. He gave her a bedroom in the house. And he said she was terribly upset.

She had a real panic attack. And she stood up and collapsed on the ground, having seen that program. Now, that was about the third day she was there. And he said she died. And so we said, why didn't you call an ambulance? Why didn't you get a doctor? But we know there was a nurse who was a girlfriend, and we know that they made many calls to her.

She was working in a hospital, and she obviously came. But he said, I panicked. I dug a hole. The easiest place I could find, I dug a hole. He said, I stood in it to make sure it was deep. And he said, I placed her body in her coat to make sure it was deep and he said I placed her body in her coat I wrapped her in her coat and I carried her myself and we asked him did you have help no he said and he said I did it alone how difficult was it for you to hear that

well you know I was relieved to hear that she hadn't suffered violence you know i don't know how she died you know your mind can run riot but i was relieved in a way no it's horrific it's horrific and she would never have died at 55 if she'd been left in that comfort of her own home so yes he's guilty But the thing is that to think that she didn't last too long in that dreadful situation, I mean, to think she might have been there for weeks, that was appalling to us. And we never knew when she died. We know they went very quiet after a certain day,

and we always suspected something had happened. But we had no idea what. We didn't know if they'd killed her. You know, that was it. So to hear that and the whole episode of the kidnapping and how it went was actually a relief to me because it's haunted me all my life. Of course.

And just give us a sense of how it has affected your whole life. I'm sure you won't mind me saying you're in your 80s now. It's been over 50 years. I'm in my 82nd year. I'd like to see this. I'd like to get her before I'm sure you won't mind me saying you're in your 80s now. It's been over 50 years. No, I'm in my 82nd year. I'd like to see this. I'd like to get here before I'm gone too. I don't know what happens at this stage. You're on the downhill run.

So the thing is, I want for my sister and myself and my brother, I want to find her and I feel very determined about this. I'm so determined. I've even paid visits to that farm now. And did I ever want to go to that farm? No, no, no. But I had an offer from a wonderful woman who has a business where they find, and she offered for free to come.

And people have been so lovely. They're so involved with this real personal story. And we went there with a machine to try. It's a geoscanner. And we have now got pictures of the place where he told us she was. He told us. He told me where she is. And I can picture it. I now have been there twice. I needed to go there. And I know now where she is. And we have amazing underground photography radar, which has shown us that the earth has been dug in certain places.

And it is important to say that the Met Police have reopened their investigation, haven't they? Let me tell you, let me read you a statement which they sent us. The Met were contacted in December 2021 by the family of Muriel Mackay regarding information they had obtained in relation to her murder. Officers from the Met's Specialist Crime Command have met with the family and are in the process of reviewing all material. I know that you actually had a meeting with the police yesterday, didn't you? Just tell us how that went.

Well, I think we've made a relationship. They were not very, I don't know, they seemed very uncomfortable at the whole thing. But anyway, we had gave them all the evidence we have and all the investigations we've done, which are incredible. And I'm sorry, but we have done a much better job than the police. And sadly, the police have their own protocol and, you know, they have their own way of doing things, which can be very,

very ponderous, especially as we have given them literally the whole case in great detail. And we had our lawyer there from Trinidad. We had and the people who did the scan and, you know, the experts were there. And I think maybe we're getting through to the police at last. But, you know, they have got a lot more important things to do. This is a cold case. And I imagine this is not a vergence, really.

But to us, it is. And quite frankly, I think if they don't help us soon, we would go ahead on our own. That's it. We feel very strongly about this. I mean, how could you not feel strongly when you've thought about your mother for 51 years or two years and worried? And, you know, it affected my whole life. It broke up my marriage, my sister's marriage broke up, my brother's marriage broke up. We all had happy lives. You know, we all lived normal lives and we all had children. And it's just, it was tragedy for everybody. When you started the communications with the man convicted of your mother's murder, it must have been very difficult because of who he is.

How do you feel towards him now? Because he obviously has started speaking, has given you some of the information that you need. Well, he's not my friend. I mean, he is information. That's really what he is. I cannot forgive. I do not forgive.

I mean, to me, he's got more information to give us, and that's what we're going to get. We will get more information out of him. Now he's opened the door of his memory and admitted to the crime. He admitted to it. He never admitted to it before. He denied it. He's been in denial for all his life, for 50 years.

He was only 22 or 21 at the time. So it has really been quite traumatic for him. You can see it takes a lot of him remembering this. And he has moments of saying, I'm not talking about this anymore. Go away. But it has been a really big job. I mean, it's not just a quick visit to him. It's taken months and many, many hours of our lawyer there to communicate with him, to draw it out. And we recorded every conversation we recorded with him,

with his agreement. You know, I don't know what else to say. We just have so much proof that we should go and dig there. That's what we have. And that's my desperate need. And what would it mean to you to get the answers that you've been looking for for so very long? Well, the answers, I've got the answer. But to find your mum?

To find her? I mean, I'm not going to find her. She's not there anymore. She's been buried underground 51 years in a most horrible place. And I'd just like to get her out of there and respect her memory in my own way. That was Diane Mackay speaking there. Still to come on the programme, Radhika Sangani on why she's commissioned not one but two nude portraits of herself.

And it's all in the name of self-love. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. Just subscribe to the Daily Podcast for absolutely free via the Woman's Hour website. Now for some music. Woman to Woman is a collaboration of some of the UK's most celebrated female musical artists, Beverly Craven, Judy Zouk and Julia Fordham. They initially formed in 2018. The trio embarked on a successful tour in 2019 and released a self-titled album.

I was joined by Julia Fordham, who's also an acclaimed artist in her own right, with hits such as Love Moves in Mysterious Ways and Happy Ever After. Woman to Woman are back with two new singles, Thank You for Being a Friend and Juniper Tree, a new tour which is due to begin in October this year, and a new member, singer-songwriter Ruma.

Let's hear a clip. Thank you for being a friend. Thank you for being a friend. Thank you for being a friend. Thank you for being a friend. Thank you for being a friend. I spoke to Julia in LA and started by asking her what time it was. It is hurtling towards 2am. I feel very rock and roll.

I've even worn a shirt that says rock on it. Yeah, you look rock and roll. Well, you are rock and roll. You haven't gone to bed yet, surely. Let's talk about woman to woman tell me how you all got together and decided to collaborate well our first round of woman to woman was an idea by Beverly Craven I think most people know Beverly from her smash hit song Promise Me and Bev had noticed we all have the same agent that Judy

Zuka myself and Bev were all playing art centres with one musician, which is often the path of the singer songwriter. I think when you've had your moment, you know, where you've been in the top 40, you've been on Radio 1, then Radio 2, and then you find yourself in the trenches in the art centres. And Bev said, well, what if we all joined together? And maybe we could hire a band, maybe we could go back and do beautiful theatre tours. And she suggested it to Jude and myself and we were like, this is a brilliant idea and we should absolutely do it. So that was how the first incarnation

of Woman to Woman came to pass. It was a brilliant idea and you all came together. So what is it like where you've all had these careers, navigated the music industry as women, solo artists, and all of a sudden you are here together. Finally, you've got a gang. We've got a gang. We love being in the gang. And one of the things that was especially rewarding musically was as soon as Beverly had had this idea, I started to obsess about the sound that I could make with Beverly Craven and Judy Zouk.

And I was so excited at the thought of the beautiful voice of Judy Zouk in the middle. And Beverly has this beautiful, clear high tone on top. And my speaking voice and my singing voice is quite low. And I was right. There was a sound there. So once we had booked all the theatres that immediately sold out, and we became very, very sort of energised and inspired, that turned into, well, what if we all

write like three or four songs each, we do an album, and that's how it sort of started to snowball. So when we got to the shows, we were not only just doing our own hits and doing the backing vocals for the other singers, we were also singing these new original songs together in three-part harmony, which for me was, I would almost say, not a career highlight, but a musical life highlight. I mean, I was such a huge fan of Judy Zouk, as was Beverly, that when we're singing Judy's hit songs, we'd be like looking at each other going, is this really happening that we're doing the BVs for the actual Judy Zooks? I mean, every night, it never got old.

It was like, you know, the first tour, the second tour, I was still so enchanted by singing with these women. And now, you know, joins our fourth member, Rumour. So how did that come about? You've already got a super group and then Rumour joins. Well, I'm a fan of Rumour anyway and Bev suggested what if we go out again?

Is it time to bring somebody else on? Just sort of energetically, not just for the sound of it, but also just for the interest of it, for the fans. Because if you've already done two sold out tours, are they going to start thinking, well, we'd like to hear or see something a bit different now. And also for for ourselves for Judy and Beverly and myself we

want to have that electrical charge of creativity ourselves and the minute you bring someone else in that happens. Ruma has the most beautiful voice she has an exquisite voice she's a wonderful songwriter and she was the only person we discussed. And as soon as Bev and Jude, they zoomed me and they're like, come on, what do you think? I'm like, it's a brilliant idea. I love her songs. I think she'd be perfect. And we were delighted that she immediately said yes. Well, I think we need to hear some more of these delicious four-part harmonies because you've got two new singles out, Thank You For Being A Friend and Juniper Tree. And I know you wrote the latter.

So let's have a listen and then we'll talk about the inspiration. I used to be the rose of Sharon A happy flower in the field My life flew by, how did that happen? I was the only one It's got timeless quality. Oh, it's so delicious to listen to. You talk about the Rose of Sharon and her beauty fading.

Do you think there's a problem in the music industry when it comes to women and age? Well, you know, I think hopefully that the woman to woman band is an example that there isn't. I think also we are singer songwriters. It's a little easier for us. We're not regarded or seen as pop stars. I think there's a lot more pressure if you brand yourself as a pop star, to remain looking a certain way. But when I was writing Juniper Tree that was inspired by an article that I was reading in The New Yorker about burnout and how burnout has actually always been,

and it was first mentioned in biblical times when Elijah lay down under the juniper tree, and he was like, I have had enough. And I just found this story very riveting. And I thought, well, if Elijah is lying under the juniper tree, what are the women doing at this time? And I did a sort of deep search. And in biblical times, to be a woman regarded as the Rose of Sharon or the Lily of Jezreel was the greatest praise that you could have. And it made me think of us four women who in our prime, you know, we all had these like beautiful videos. And I think we're in our musical and intellectual

prime for sure. It just sort of struck me as a notion of what an interesting song that that could make, that we're all at this time in our life where we are, you know, our beauty might be fading, but our creativity is actually bubbling forth. I would argue that your beauty is just getting better and better. Personally, Julia, you, all of you, just outstanding. I have been thinking about this super group and all I keep thinking about is, oh, imagine the gossip they've got between the four of them.

Tell me you sit there sharing notes on the things that you've experienced in the music industry. Well, we do. There was a lot of that at the beginning, especially when we'd never met. I'd never met Beverly or Judy. And when we first got together, it was like absolutely pull up a chair. Do you remember that this happened to you? Come on, come on. It's only women's Hour. We can share any secrets here. Well, I mean, we do like to get on the old Zoom and have a bit of a catch up, that's for sure. You know, it's wonderful to have the camaraderie

and I really enjoyed that part of it because I've done so many projects where it's quite isolating. I just recently did a tour of the East Coast where I was back in the singer-songwriter sort of art centre type venues. It's me, it's one musician, it's two guys in a van. I love the guys. It's not quite the same as this experience of being bonded with these women.

And Julia, Beverly, Judy and Ruma, a personal request. Release that book of gossip, please, because we all want to hear it. Now nearly two thirds of the world's illiterate adults are women. Here in the UK nearly seven million adults have very poor literacy skills, many of whom are too ashamed or embarrassed to ask for help. So what impact can struggling to read and write have on a woman's life long term? Chloe Tilly spoke to Ginny Williams-Ellis, the CEO of Read Easy UK, a charity offering free one-to-one reading coaching. She was joined by Sarah Todd, who struggled to write her name or tell the time when she was 14, but used Read Easy as an adult to learn these skills. Chloe began by asking Sarah about her experience.

I went through, obviously, primary school and near the end they realised how severely dyslexic I was, not being able to recognise my own name. Going into middle school, I tried to do the mainstream classrooms, but I struggled severely. And there was a lovely special needs teacher named Mr Thompson who put me into a special needs classroom. He wanted to see how severely dyslexic

I was had to pull my mum and dad in and say she's not going to make it anywhere because she's can't spell her own name she can't tell the time and she literally is so far behind she you know she's still at reception age um and they were devastated but they were more like okay what do we need to do to help her so I went through middle school with all this support um trying to learn the basics which I should have learned in primary school but due to being very sick when I was in primary school I missed a lot of that vital you know the phonics the number recognition and I lost a lot of that through being poorly and then coming to the upper school was meant to have still support but I didn't get as much support so then as a teenager you become stubborn and a bit like I'm not listening no more you're

listening to me I'm not listening to you um and I learned to have a very I'm gonna do it myself attitude which didn't get me very far then obviously left school with a few GCSEs which I was really chuffed that I got um and then going out into the big wide world of work now it must have been tough very tough because when I originally started to go out into work you had to fill in like the paper application form sometimes it takes people like half an hour an hour boom done it took me and my dad up to three to four hours just to fill in an application form because it was constantly having to write something down then having to copy what I've written down then having to if I don't understand

that question having to try and figure out and my dad being like it's simple you just need to okay that's fine so then stopping and he just was like do you want me to do it for you I was like no I have to do this myself and the amount of times he would end up having to do it for me because I just get so upset not understanding simple instructions like um where do you live what's your address? It just was frustrating. And then going into work, that was a nightmare because if I made mistakes, like if it says danger and I didn't recognise danger electric or danger hot surface, the amount of times I burnt myself or someone shout, don't go in there. And I'm like, why? Well, it does say do not enter. Oh, yeah. And I'd play the silly jack oh yeah you know I was just making sure that you were paying attention in my head thinking this is really not good

so what did that do to your your confidence and your ability to stop to read I stopped even attempting to read I stopped attempting to try and vocalize the fact that I was now so far behind that I would just play the you know the cheeky sarcastic kid that you know everyone thought was really funny and then as a teenager I just became this sarcastic kid you know sarcastic lady that everyone kind of just thought was a bit of a joke and it was only you know once having children and then becoming a single parent and you've got all this paperwork and you've got all these bills and you've got people knocking on your front door because you're so far behind and then your dad comes around because he was walking full-time and I'm like I've got this letter this person came see

me I don't know what's going on and apparently I've got the bailiff's coming what do I do and he was like when did you get this letter I was like Monday and this is now like Thursday and he was just like why didn't you call me because I was too embarrassed oh you were busy you were working don't worry about it be fine and he's like it's not going to be fine we need to get onto these people now sometimes you would we would contact the people and as soon as you say the word, I'm dyslexic, they go,

are you? Well, that's okay. We'll put it on our records. And it's almost like they put a bit of tape around you to say she's going to fall for anything we tell her because she doesn't understand. Stay with us, Sarah, because I want to bring in Ginny

because Ginny, give us a sense of how common Sarah's experience is here in the UK. Good morning. Well, it's very common. It's much, much more common than most people realise. I'm just in England. There are two and a half million adults who can barely read or can't read at all. And in some parts of the country, that's up to 10% of the working age population. So it's a much wider problem than most people realise.

And how are people, I mean, we heard how Sarah was slipping through the net. Is that a common reason why people are leaving school in this country without being able to read and write? Yes, Sarah's story is very, very typical. The emotions she describes around it as well are so common. And the fact that it's so embarrassing makes it really difficult for people to ask for help.

And then often there is no help out there anyway. And it's very, very difficult as well, even with adult education classes for adults at the lowest levels. It's really difficult to admit you've got a problem and go into a classroom. So it's much easier to hide. So, Sarah, it was having your children, having your twins that made you say, I want to I want to read to them. That was the thing that kind of really spurred you on to get this one-to-one help it kind of broke me because sorry your children you sit down with them and you teach and you read with them you read them bedtime stories

and you have all these fun and you take them to the library well for me that was like a living nightmare I would be they would get given books and I'd hide them down the back of my wardrobe so they couldn't find them where's that book oh you Oh, you haven't got a book. I don't know. Maybe you've hidden it somewhere. Not telling them that actually I've hidden it so we can't read it. So they didn't know you couldn't read? No, they had no idea. They were only little. They were like two, three. But obviously still then it's, you know, teaching them stories

and you can learn, help them learn things through reading. But it was the fact that um the government say that when your children turn five you must return to some form of work and I went to a workforce interview and obviously I said to the lady I'd like to learn to cook because you know sausage and chips just don't cut it you know every day um and I said you know I need a bit more social skills because the girl is lovely but I need to you know have some real friends to talk to and some activities to go to and I looked at the floor I was waiting for her to snoot her nose at me and I was like and also I need to learn to read and I

started to cry and as I lift up my head she looked like looked at me to say it's okay and she's just like I've got something that will help you and she handed me a piece of paper and I was like oh great more paper and uh yeah it was a read easy sheet I got home my dad's like what's that I was like oh it's something to help me read to learn to read and he's like okay dial the number I dialed it six times before I actually pressed go and then literally I I've never looked back ever since then you know I had that first meeting with a lady called name Jenny and she's wonderful and she's got such a beautiful soul and she the first thing she said to me I'm gonna try and say this without crying she said to me I'm really proud of you and to hear someone tell you they're proud of you even though they've got no idea who you are

just makes you feel so light and then obviously I did as much as best as I could on this little test that she had for me what it's not a test it's just they ask you to read words that you can and she just said that's perfect well done I'm really proud of you and I just was like why does this woman keep on saying she's proud of me she's got got no idea who I am. She's got no idea that I've got hidden books in the back of the wardrobe because I'm terrified of reading. But she does know how difficult it is for you to ask for help. And that's the really amazing thing. And it's great now that you can read to your kids. And this is the thing. And the thing, like, honestly, if it wasn't for Read Easy, I don't know where I'd be right now. But like, when I was moving house about four years ago,

I went to the wardrobe and I was like,'s Cinderella there's Snow White and I'm pulling out all these books the books that you now sit down yeah and I now sit down with the girls and if I start reading and I get stuck they know not to to interrupt me and try and read it for me because they're desperate to tell me and they're like we need to break this down I said okay let's break it down and now obviously I've got a little girl who's one she loves books so I read to her all the time and she likes to make her own sounds to go with it but it's brilliant because um obviously when I was pregnant with the girls I had no idea what I was doing and I was so lost but then obviously being pregnant with my little girl I had all these books I could read and

we're in lockdown so I had plenty of time to read. So it's good so you found the enjoyment of reading and I guess Ginny this is the thing it's the enjoyment of reading but also as Sarah so eloquently put it's about being able to function in life and it has huge implications for people doesn't it their life chances I mean you look at the high rates of illiteracy in the female prison population just alone and also the impact on people's mental health. It's a massive issue for people's ability to improve their lives. It's a massive block. There are so many things that people can't do when they can't read. I mean, Sarah's listed lots of them, but there are so many others even just going shopping um i remember somebody um who uh learned with reed easy a while back who um had a little boy who got a peanut allergy and um he was hospitalized three times because she couldn't read the labels on the um the jars

she was buying in the supermarket so there are so many ways it impacts people's lives and their confidence and their self-esteem and their ability to feel that they can go out and about and do the things that everybody else does. So learning to read can be an incredibly powerful way of being able to do all of these things, join normal life. It's just really difficult to imagine it if you haven't experienced it. But we see huge changes. People say, well, it's really changed my life. Ginny Williams-Ellis and Sarah Todd speaking there, and many of you contacted us in response to Sarah's story. Brenda said, I was moved to tears hearing about Sarah's strength,

courage and tenacity in the face of the many problems she's had to overcome. Her story highlights an issue that's too rarely taken into account. I think she's a star and hope she'll be a beacon of hope for many others. And Jenny said, I am a dyslexic retired primary school teacher, so I totally understand the problem from the inside. Non-reading parents lead to non-reading children, so schools should help the parents. An adult literacy teacher could be assigned to each school who can form a relationship with the parents without stigma. Adults just need time and understanding.

They're keen to succeed, especially when they have a target to read to their child. Now, here's a question for you all. Would you ever commission a nude painting of yourself? I ask because our next guest, author and journalist Radhika Sangani, has not one, but two in her apartment, one above her bed and one in her living room. She's also just written a new novel called 30 Things I Love About Myself, inspired by her own self-love journey. Emma caught up with Radhika and began by asking her why she commissioned these paintings. I decided to celebrate myself, to celebrate how far I've come and to celebrate kind of this self-love journey I think I've been going on in the last few years. I just really wanted

to do something to kind of commemorate this confidence that I've got. And I thought, obviously, a naked portrait. Obviously. Okay. So the one above the bed is a landscape one is that right it's a landscape and it's basically inspired by kate winslet and titanic that was the only reference i had to a nude painting that didn't um so it's me kind of draped across my sofa um fully naked make completely naked um and i was gonna get my hair to cover me but then the artist convinced me to be brave and just push my hair back so I'm very naked and that's now hanging above my bed um and the second one came about because the artist Nicholas Baldian he thought

my titanic pose was a little bit basic I think um so he suggested something a little bit more artistic and he told me to sit on my armchair um again with my hair pushed back and my arms sort of up resting on the armchair and it's very bold and it's very strong and when he showed me a photo of it I was terrified and I didn't love it because I'm just really really naked and uh you can kind of see the the crease in my stomach you know like when you sit down and your stomach your stomach has yours your tummy has that and it just basically I just didn't feel like I looked as nice in it but then he decided to paint both and he sent me photos of both and actually I love them both in really different ways and that one that scared

me is now hanging up in my living room where absolutely anyone who comes to my flat can see it. In terms of these paintings, what are people's reactions who do come to your home? I recognise we've not been going to each other's homes as much in the last nearly two years or so. So, yes, so far, it's just been who me and are kind of used to this sort of thing for me because I have just written a book that's also all about self-love um so most of my girlfriends are really proud of me and they sort of think wow I wish I was brave enough to do that my guy friends are slightly scared um I think is probably the safest way to put it and my mum is absolutely appalled and she just has no idea why I've done this um and I think that probably the safest way to put it and my mum is absolutely appalled and she just

has no idea why I've done this um and I think that so she's in her 60s and I'm 31 and I do think there's a bit of a generational divide when it comes to this whole you know self-love movement and celebrating yourself just the way you are because for me self-love is not me saying I'm better than anybody else or you know I've got two nudes hanging in my flat because I think I look better than you know a Botticelli or a Rubens it's it's more just that I'm saying this is who I am finally after years of insecurity and not feeling good enough I've managed to kind of switch this in a negative voice in my head and instead I'm just celebrating myself as I am and I approve of myself and it's that simple and this this is what you've been when you talk about this this self-love journey and you talk about this kind of movement

there are people online doing a lot about this aren't there and you've been looking into this yourself as well as for the book but just to make yourself feel better yeah of course I am so what I call my self-love journey um sort of began in my late 20s um when I had a breakup and I call my self-love journey sort of began in my late 20s when I had a breakup and I left my job to go freelance. And suddenly I realized that I'd been getting so much validation from that relationship and from my job that I really just without it, I was kind of a bit of a mess. And I really just had to learn to give it to myself and the way I did that was to firstly become really really aware of the negative voice in my head and to start to try and shift it so that instead of berating myself for every tiny thing I did wrong I'd forgive myself and try and swap it to say nice things about myself and I completely changed my social media feed so I no longer follow anyone that makes me feel bad

about myself I don't follow any models I don't follow any magazine that just has you know people who make me feel bad about myself well you also did a campaign about your nose didn't you yes I did a campaign called hashtag side profile selfie which was me facing my biggest fear and posting a selfie of a side profile selfie of my nose which is quite big and I always hated my nose and following all these people these body positivity influencers gave me the confidence and the courage to do it myself because none of them were posting about noses so I thought you know what I'm gonna do it and it went completely viral which was crazy because at the time I still wasn't convinced I love my nose I was only sort of halfway there but suddenly I had

thousands of people telling me it was beautiful and actually that really helped so you had to you had to get on board with it quite quickly I did now I now even when I had this portrait done of me and you know I didn't originally like my tummy in one of them I did feel bad because I was like oh gosh I'm a body positivity body positivity influencer like I can't I can't say this I need to love all of myself but this is like something I'm really learning which is that you know the whole thing about self-love and this is something I explore in my book 30 things I love about myself it's not it's not about getting to this place where you're you know every day you're super happy with the way you look and everything's perfect and you're just in this constant state of joy we're still human we're still going to have those days of falling into doubt and insecurity

but when you've gone on this journey to love yourself and you've managed to you know become your own best friend and swap that nasty voice in your head for one that says nice things then those moments don't last very long those moments of doubt don't last long at all and is it right that you stand in front of the mirror and say I love you out loud I can't believe I'm saying this on the radio um but yes yes I do how regularly do you say that to yourself every time I brush my teeth twice a day um good regularity well thank you when I first started doing it um I did feel like a complete idiot I was mortified but now I do it so often it's almost become a bit of a I don't know it's fun I like it and I'll say things to

myself like you got this girl when I'm looking in the mirror and it sounds silly but I promise it works and that's I mean the reason I'm talking about this the reason I've written my book it's basically just to help other people do the same because it has made my life so much better that if I can just, you know, I don't know, inspire anyone listening to try and do this. Well, we've got a message here from Nikki in Sussex. He said, I had a portrait done for my husband before I had my daughter. I think she's saying a naked portrait from what she's saying here, but maybe I'm wrong. I was so excited to have it done. I was lying on a sofa, very artfully done.

That's what makes me think it's naked. Once it was finished, I suddenly became mortified and embarrassed that I'd been so vain it's now hidden in a drawer face down no that makes me so sad please get out I think it's amazing you did that and you know it's for you and for your husband you should definitely get it up in the house well Louise had uh photo portraits taken before she says before and after my mastectomy I'm going to have a third set done once the scars have faded and I've had my nipple tattoo, which is very powerful. And actually a bit of a trend in some of these messages about life changes and body changes. So you can see a whole range there, Radhika.

I'm still just imagining what it would be like the first time you bring home a guy and they see that painting just above the bed. Has that happened yet? No, my mum's terrified of this happening, but I think actually it's going to work in my favour. I think I look great. That was the empowering Radhika Sanghani. That's all for today. Thank you so much for listening.

Join Emma from Monday at 10. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.