Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Tracey Emin, SEND reforms, Student midwives

Episode Date: February 28, 2026

A 40-year career retrospective of Dame Tracey Emin’s work has opened at the Tate Modern in London, featuring many of the artist’s most iconic pieces, from her controversial, Turner Prize shortlisted My Bed (1998) to her neon artworks, textiles, bronze sculptures, photos, and paintings. Called A Second Life, it explores the connections and tensions between her early career and the work she’s created since 2020, when she was diagnosed with cancer and underwent a huge operation. Tracey joins Anita Rani to discuss her body of work.Student midwives have contacted us to say many of them are struggling to find jobs despite a serious shortage of midwives in the NHS. A new survey from the Royal College of Midwives finds 31% of newly qualified midwives are still not employed in the role, and the majority of those who have found employment are on fixed-term contracts. Nuala McGovern hears from Safia, who is in her final year of midwifery training, and Gill Walton, Chief Executive of the Royal College of Midwives.Molly vs the Machines is a new feature-length documentary that tells the story of Ian Russell and his fight for online safety after his daughter Molly took her own life in 2017 following months of viewing content relating to self-harm and suicide on social media. Molly’s friends Charlotte Campbell and Sophie Conlan tell Anita why it was important for them to take part in the film.In collaboration with our Send in the Spotlight podcast, Nuala speaks to Schools Standards Minister Georgia Gould about the government's proposed SEND reforms.Writer and actor Kyla Harris joins Clare McDonnell to discuss reframing disability with her acclaimed BBC comedy We Might Regret This, which she co-created.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the program. Coming up, the school's standards minister, Georgia Gould, on the government's proposed send reforms. We find out why student midwives are finding it so difficult to get a job when there's a chronic shortage within the NHS in England, a powerful, new documentary explores the story of 14-year-old Molly Russell, who took her own life in 2017

after viewing content relating to self-harm and suicide online. We'll hear from two of her friends. And the writer and actor Kyla Harris on reframing disability with her acclaimed comedy, We Might Regret This, which she co-created. But first, Dame Tracy Emmons' groundbreaking art career is being celebrated with a 40-year retrospective that's opened at the tape modern in London. It features some of the artist's most iconic pieces from her famously controversial and Turner Prize-nominated installation My Bed to her neon signs, short films, beautiful hand-stitched blankets, photos, paintings

and bronze sculptures depicting her life in all its pain, trauma, joy, love and of course, art. Called A Second Life, the show also explores the relationship between Tracy's early career and the work she's created since 2020 when she was diagnosed with bladder cancer and underwent a huge operation. The show moved me to tears when I saw it, but how did Tracy feel to see 40 years of her work in one place? It's unreal all the time. You have to pinch yourself, not just because it's Tate and not because of all the work there, but because of the relief. And it's not just like the relief like the show is done. It's like a massive benchmark in my life. It's like a sign of achievement.

To actually have a show on that scale, on that level, at a very, you know, one of the world's greatest international museums means that you have to have achieved something. So I keep looking back and thinking, wow, wow, I've done this, I've done this, I've done this, I feel that I've just kept doing what I've been doing. And even when people made jokes about it, took the Mickey out of me, derided me for it. I haven't stopped and I've continued with my subject matter and believing in on what I'm saying and what I'm doing. And it's kind of come to fruition now. People are understanding

it. People are understanding why I'm making art about these subjects. It wasn't narcissistic. It wasn't all about me. It's about something which women, specifically women, go through. 30 years ago, there wasn't a voice for abortion, you know. Things have really true. changed, which is good. And I'm going to talk through pieces because you do talk about a lot in the exhibition and the, before that, where do you think that sort of tenacity and that relentless sort of drive to continue? Where does that come from? I don't know. I always think my mum and dad gave me a hell of a lot, by default, a hell of a lot

of independence. So I always had to make my own decisions and look after myself a lot. I left school 13, left home at 15. I've always had to look after myself. And I think part of that is being defensive. And when I was younger, it was very chippy. You know, I had massive big giant chips on my shoulders, but I've turned them into art, and I've worked with it all, and I've used it all, and I haven't hated it. I took it on as being part of me. So it's like when always people said to me, no, you can't do that, instead of saying, oh, okay, I went off and proved and wrong. I went and did it. We get such an intense sense of who you are in your story, and we're literally taken through your life journey. And I want to start with the piece that just really struck a chord

with me instantly. We see a photo of you, your brother and your mum and your dad, and you talk about experiencing racism from a very young age. And that obviously I related to it and just that feeling of being other. Well, also I think, I know this is really funny because my name's Tracy. Yeah. And because of my voice and because of the way that I am, people never, I remember my dad collapsed once and I was rushing around and saying I'd got an ambulance for him and everything and people were saying to me just leave that old man alone let that other people deal with it I was going he's not an old man he's my dad and people couldn't see that he was my dad because the color of his skin was so different from mine and I think what people don't understand is

even if you look pretty white and you sound pretty white you had to grow up with what your parents were having to go through and my mom and dad had a child terrible time. My mum was spat at, in ending of all places, spat at when she was, you know, really pregnant. She was called like the N-word lover by people. She was like she had a really hard time. And also my mum and dad weren't married. And this is 1963. So it's not like what I necessarily grew up with. It's the shadow in which you grow up with. And my mum's fear for me and my brother as well. She always felt that we were going to be bullied or treated differently.

And at school sometimes we were treated differently. I think there's a lot of kids that go through this. And with me, I'm not complaining. I made that work. Yeah. Some of that worked 30 years ago. I had a massive show at the Hayward Gallery. Really, a lot of the work related to coming from Argate being Cypriot and Nubian

and all this sort of stuff. And not one critic wrote about it. Not one person mentioned it. Why do you think that is? And the one thing did say about the really big photograph, and they said something like, and there's a large photo that goes pounds across the wall of Emin on holiday with her family.

And it's not. It's us in Turkey with my dad. But unsurprisingly, for me, it's instantly the place that I just zoomed in straight away. I thought, okay, that is the moment. You instantly know something about being an outsider or being slightly different. And you talk a lot about your body.

And as women, we know, we are made to feel, shame about our bodies. And you explore your relationship with your body in detail, both when you were younger and now post your illness and your operation. And there are photographs, including of your stoma. There's also bronzes, one of which is gigantic and outside the tape modern. How would you describe that relationship now? I've always had a really strange relationship with my body and anybody that knows me really well knows that I can't stand looking at. I don't have any any mirrors in my house only for my face. I can't stand looking at my body. I've always hated it.

I've been radically thin in my time. And I've never been anorexia. It's a very different thing. It's about the less of me, the happier I am. The more of me, the less I don't like feeling heavy. I like to feel heavenly. I like to feel light. And I'm just having to come to terms with having great regressed again

and feeling being 62 and all of these things. But this is what keeps me on the earth. So even though I might not like the way I appear, actually at the moment I really like the way that I am so it's like getting a balance with things you know quite early on in the exhibition we're confronted with these beautiful embroidered blankets

lots of handwritten essays and lots of them feature details quite harrowing details of you being sexually assaulted you were raped at 13 and the attitudes you had to deal with at the time and there's a bit that I read about how your mum dealt with that when you got home and then there was something that you wrote

that I'm going to read out to you. You said at 13, I realised there was danger in beauty and innocence and I could not have both. This would be something I would battle for the rest of my life. Yeah. Well, I always say this about girls. In Margaret, there was a really high teenage pregnancy. When I say teenage, I don't mean 19, I mean 13, 14. When I was young, a lot of girls had babies when they were really young and everybody just presumed these girls were stupid for getting pregnant. Well, they weren't. these girls were highly intelligent, were far more mature than their peers or whatever, and they grew up much faster.

Yet there was no guidance for that. My mum put me on the pill when I was 14, because my mom knew she wasn't going to stop me from having sex, and she felt that it was better that I did these things and didn't end up having a teenage pregnancy, and that I had a bit more control over things. Now, whether anyone thinks that's wrong or right. I eventually got into education, I got a degree, I've got a degree, I've done, become an artist, all of these things. And there's a really good film in the show. It's conversation with my mum. And it's about my mom telling me why I shouldn't have children. I love that.

Yeah, it's very amusing and very funny. And people mustn't take my mom wrong because my mom's also rising. She's making me be very confrontational with her. And it's very, very funny. But in that conversation, my mom says some really good poignant things about her life and about why she didn't want me to have a life like hers. And I think that when I had the cancer, one of the things that I really, really meant was I thought, thank God I don't have children. To suffer that and have children,

to suffer the responsibility of looking after other people and being the artist that I am, I don't think I could ever do that. I couldn't ever do it. I really enjoyed that conversation, by the way. There's two other videos, big screens, well, there's three, including the trip to Cyprus. but there's one which is called Why I Never Became a Dancer,

and that's from 1995, which details a really horrible incident of you entering a disco competition and you were humiliated by the boys and the men. But that was actually the moment you realised I'm leaving Margot. Yeah, it's all true that. But also it's a big metaphor because I wasn't just called a slag on the dance floor. It was when I walked down the high street. Yeah.

I was called Slag. Or when I went into the coffee shop, because I'd slept with these people. and I was very, very young. And, you know, in the film it's about triumph over adversity. It's like about surviving. And at the end, I survive by dancing. I carry on dancing.

And it's all a big metaphor for being understanding a way out, understanding a situation. And I think no matter what harm that happened to me when I was young, I've used it all. And I've made the most of it in my arm. and I haven't let it beat me. That's the important thing. I've survived through it all.

Was there a moment when you realised I am successful or I've made it? When did that happen? Honestly, there's two answers to that. My first time was when I had my exhibition at the South London Gallery and I got out the taxi to go to my opening and there was a big queue. And I thought, oh, I must be really early. It hasn't opened yet. But actually it was the people queue in to get in.

And I thought, oh, wow, I'm an artist. People are looking at my art. And I think any artist who have an exhibition and sees people looking at their work feels that, feels that sense of achievement. And then I suppose every day that I make art in my studio and I work hard and I feel like I've found out something new about painting or found out something new about the way that I think,

that's when I think, yeah, I've made it. Because I'm still doing it and loving it. Dame Tracy Emin there And if you feel you've been affected by any of the issues raised, visit the BBC Action Line website. And Tracy Emin a second life will be at London's Tate Modern until the 31st of August. Now to a story that some listeners to Woman's Hour

have asked us to explore. They are student midwives. They say many of them are struggling to find jobs despite a serious shortage of midwives in the NHS. A new survey from the Royal College of Midwives echoes that finding. It says 31% of those newly-quired qualified midwives are still not employed in the role and the majority of those who've found

employment are on fixed term contracts. This comes a year after the government announced its graduate guarantee pledging that every newly qualified nurse and midwife in England would have the opportunity to apply to join the NHS workforce. But how has that been on the ground? Well, Nula spoke to Jill Walton, chief executive of the Royal College of Midwives, but first Safia, who's training to be a midwife. Why did you? she get in touch? I'm a third-year student midwife. This is my dream, my dream job.

I've taken out 60,000 pounds in student loans. I've worked nearly 2,300 clinical hours in the NHS. And right now, I don't have a job, and I will not have a job if it continues to go in this direction. There's hundreds of newly qualified midwives that qualified last August that are unemployed, not by choice. They are desperate to work as midwives and there's a barrier.

The government has had budget cuts after budget cuts and our trusts tell us that they want to employ us but they don't have the money to do so. So let's jump into some of those figures with Jill for a moment because your survey that I mentioned

31% of newly qualified midwives are not in employment in that profession. But we've spoken about so many times the shortage of midwives. Why is there the mismatches you understand it? Well, I think the survey is right that there's some short-term financial savings in the NHS is having an impact on the long-term, Sophie, so that trust can't employ those graduate midwives. And this happened last year, and it will happen this year as well. They can't employ those graduate midwives. And so 31% in our survey are not in midwife roles. They've gone off and done other things on nothing at all. And those that were employed are on

short-term contracts or part-time, which is ridiculous. And many times you've had on this programme about the crisis in maternity care is really impacting on the confidence of women using services and staff. So we want the government to fund more midwifery posts so that students can be employed. So let me just read a little of what the Department for Health and Social Care has told us. No one who dedicates themselves to a career midwifery should be left in limbo, their skills are so urgently needed to rebuild our NHS. That is why this government's graduate guarantee

delivered 700 additional roles for newly qualified midwives on top of an existing recruitment, backed by £8 million in funding. They say we now have a record 31,024 midwives working in the NHS and our 10-year workforce plan will set out how we will train, recruit and retain the midwifery workforce for the long term. So is that not moving in the right direction? I mean, some of the figures I've heard of a shortfall are around 2000.

Explain to me how you see that statement. It is moving in the right direction. So let's say that. We're looking forward to the workforce plan because we need to have that good planning. But maternity services is very complicated. It's getting more complicated. Women absolutely need personalised care. So we know that there needs to be more midwives.

And graduate midwives are a solution for the future. Our members tell us they are on their knees. You know, that number doesn't equate to what's happening on the ground. They miss their breaks. They work way longer than their contracted hours. And they know they're still not delivering the care they want to deliver. So those numbers don't tell the true picture of what's really happening in maternity services. There's a couple of aspects I'd like to pick up on more complicated.

Why? There are lots of women who are older. They already have maybe long-term conditions. Women know more about what they want in maternity services, and the service has to be responsive for that. Midwives have to have time to develop relationships with women, listen to what they need and what they want. That takes more time than maybe it did five, ten, ten, twenty years ago.

And women deserve it, rightly so, and we really need the staff to be able to provide that care. You also mentioned that they can't be employed. Why is that? Is that purely a funding issue? as you describe it? Yes, I mean, I think that the funding cuts are applied across all services, including maternity. We'd argue that maternity needs to be prioritised for funding. You know, these are services for women delivered mainly by women. That's been part of the problem for a long time,

out of sight and out of mind. So it's really important that the NHS and the government prioritise maternity services and put it right and start by employing graduate midwives. And that is my next question. With that shortfall that we are speaking about, and I know there's funding issues, you would like to see more of the government feels they are on the right track or putting out that $8 million as they talk about. Could new graduate midwives plug that shortfall that we see,

or do they need anything else, extra training, more qualifications, or could they walk straight into that job when they graduate? Yes. A midwife when they graduate is an autonomous profession. They graduate and they can be midwives. They're on the register. They can be midwives. And, you know, the important thing is that they get support when they first go into the profession with a good preceptorship. But they are the future. They absolutely know what they're doing.

They've had brilliant education. So let's employ them. Let's go back to Safia. There you go. Well, you get a glowing report from Jill. You are organising a march at Parliament. Tell me why you want to do that. And what are the issues you're hearing about from your colleagues, really, I suppose, that you're graduating.

with? Yeah, I started my Instagram post, but less than two weeks ago because I felt that we weren't being listened to student midwives and newly qualified midwives. We're crying out. We just want to work. We want to be midwives. And I started it because I was so frustrated and so angry that I have given three years of my life to my dream job and I'm not being given that opportunity. And so the government guarantee, for example, when I was looking at it, there are hubs that they have created where you will be able to see jobs that you can apply for. What happens when you do? Well, there's currently no jobs. Last week there was two preceptor jobs in England. So there's hundreds of newly qualified midwives. We haven't actually seen the guaranteed job scheme translating into real posts to solve this nationwide problem. This isn't just about us. This is about the system that's punishing student midwives and understaffed services and unemployed midwives should never coexist. So what would you like to see happen, Safia?

I would like the government to put funding into the hospital so they can create jobs for us. I was very interested to read that part of your degree you need to have done, I believe, is 40 vaginal births to qualify. In London, for example, the cesarean rate is over 50%. So that can be tricky perhaps to hit that number? It can be for a lot of students and, again, a lot of students struggle because our bursaries and our maintenance loan only cover to a certain point in our. training and after that you still have to get your 40 deliveries and a lot of students that I know currently are working part-time jobs in supermarkets as night nannies and it's like police officers don't pay to train firefighters don't pay to train this is such an important service and we're being

exploited and we just want a job that's what I want I mean some might wonder as well Jill why there are all these training places within universities if in fact the jobs aren't there at the end. Is that a conversation that's taking place? Yes, and I think it was probably poor workforce planning. There was a recognition that there was more midwives needed and so, you know, more training places came about. But there wasn't the follow-through then to employ those graduate midwives when they came out of their education. So it goes back to the funding of the NHS. This is about safe staffing, equal safe care. We have to employ more midwives and, you know, it is the bottom line.

It really is. I'm speaking primarily about England here. I know your survey is UK-wide. How is it in the other regions? Yes, in the other nations, there are similar problems. Our members tell us they're working extra hours and they can't deliver the care they want to. So it's a similar problem.

Some of the student midwives have got jobs, but the staffing crisis is the same in the other nations. And let me turn it indeed nations and not regions. Let me turn back to you, Safia, because say you're trained, you come out. When is your graduation? I will hopefully qualify in July, August. July August.

If you don't have a job, I don't know, let's say for six, I really hope you do, but if you don't for six months, what happens then? I mean, does your qualification always remain active? It currently does, but you need, so once you qualify, you register for your PIN and you need to keep up a certain number of hours to have to keep your PIN.

And so obviously I've been in on day, with newly qualified midwives that have their pin, but they don't have those hours. And so they're ready, essentially a year behind. And I really don't know what are they going to do. Student Midwives Safia and Jill Walton, chief executive of the Royal College of Midwives speaking to Noola there. Now, young people's access to social media is a hot topic of conversation at the moment. And this weekend sees the release of a new documentary, Molly versus the Machines.

It tells the story of Ian Ruff. and his fight for online safety. Ian's daughter, Molly, took her own life in 2017 following months of viewing content relating to self-harm and suicide on social media. There are two narratives in the film, the story of what happened to Molly in the lead up to her tragic death,

and that of the broader economic logic behind AI and the giant tech companies as it influences and infiltrates our lives. Several of Molly's friends took part in the documentary. I spoke to two of those friends, Charlotte Campbell and Sophie Conlon. We started by talking about Molly. Molly was the best. She was so bubbly and so friendly,

and she really, really cared about her friends. Genuinely. Yeah, no, genuinely, she really, really cared. It was always if you're okay and how you are and what you've been up to. And she just wanted you to be the best version of yourself, which is really, you know, hard to find in something. like high school. Yeah.

Yeah, I think in high school is very easy for girls to get sucked into the competition between, you know, and now that they have social media, they have to have the nice Instagram pictures and they have to be showing off what they're doing on the weekends,

not just the competition in school on a daily basis. And I think not only dark content that Molly was viewing, I think just the general addiction to social media is such a problem. And I think that's a lot of the message, especially now with AI.

Yeah. Was she thoughtful? Was she outspoken? Was she the quiet one? She was not quiet when you knew her. She was a little bit sassy, but in the best way possible. And she was just so much fun. She always had so much energy. And it's crazy because I would genuinely describe her as happy. And she was the one girl that got on with everybody in the school. Like, everybody liked her. In the documentary, they recreate the inquest.

and that you all watch live. And what's really interesting is then we see you as a group of friends reflecting on the details that you learn through the inquest, which I'm sure you didn't know at the time. And I think Charlotte in the dock, you say looking back, you said that you started noticing tiny shifts in different areas of Molly. Like small differences. Yeah, definitely. But at that time, you don't really think much of it. it's cold so you're going to wear a long sleeve under your t-shirt. You know, she went from skirts to trousers.

It's like I said, you know, it's starting to get colder. And also, you're changing, you're finding yourself in high school. So you don't think. And it's not something at that age you want to call out on somebody else. And at that time, there was such a stigma around it still. So it felt like almost an attack. Hmm. What was it like to hear?

the outcome of the inquest when it was performed and spoken out loud. It was shocking. When we saw the inquest, that was the first time we had actually seen it. We had heard verbatim what they said because it's from the transcript. Actually, I just remind everybody what it said was it is likely that the material viewed by Molly already suffering with a depressive illness and vulnerable due to her age affected her mental health in a negative way and contributed to her death in a more than minimal way.

Yeah, that was hard to hear. But it also felt like we're moving forward. You know, social media is being held accountable for a death, our friend's death. So it was hard because you don't want that, you know. But then it's also a reason. And that, I think that really, really helped with a bit of closure. Yeah, I think of course it was for a good cause

And everything that's now is from that That's sort of where it all started And I mean when we saw it was only actors and actresses Like replaying it to us But I can't imagine I mean the content that we saw the content she was viewing We saw you know Things that she was tracking of herself in her phone

Such as weight and things And hearing those things When you've had such a different idea of somebody so convincingly as well. And you're her closest great friendship group. You're like the tight girl group. I'm sort of hours a day.

Yeah. I always say I don't know that, Molly. I know my friend who was happy who loved musical theatre and who cared about her friends. I don't know what social media saw of her. I don't know that. I think Sophie in the film,

you make a point that really stood out for me. You're in your early 20s now, but you were 14 all of you at the time, that you were almost like the guinea pig generation. Yeah. I mean, I remember I had a phone quite young because my parents had split up, so it was a communication device only. But I do remember when social media started coming about

and just the instant pressures. And because it's so gradual, it's so quiet, you don't realize it's happening. And then, yeah, all of a sudden we're 20 years old. And the validation that comes from these apps now from likes, shares, I mean, I know they've taken like counts away and such and such, but I think we're ignoring the bigger picture, if I'm being honest. I think social media needs to be looked at and regulated in many more ways than just Molly. But I think the action that is currently being made is the only way forward and it is really now or never.

Has Molly got justice? I mean, the family waited five years for an inquiry and an inquest. It's the first time a tech platform had been held formally responsible for the death of a child. And do you think she's got justice? I don't believe so. I think justice will be served when these tech companies take accountability. and realise what they've done and you see it in the documentary

they have researchers that we find out from them being whistleblowers that they knew what was going on they knew how it was negatively impacting children especially around the teenage years

and they did nothing they just profited of it and that's hard to comprehend what would justice look like for Molly I mean it's hard to say at this point in time because she's gone. There isn't anything that can bring Molly back. The thing is we can say, yeah, there's things that have changed and these tech companies have done their part,

but there's been more children that have passed away from the same thing. So if it was just one person, fine, you can call it an anomaly, but it's not. I don't personally work in tech. I couldn't tell you the way that these people could change their platforms, but I think whatever does happen, a big change needs to be made. I think it's another one of your friends, Neve, who says in the documentary, there needs to be an online safety law that tech companies have to follow. And then she talks about Molly's dad, Ian, who's also been on this program. And, you know, he's very vocal for years. She says, what can he do up against a CEO of a multi-billion dollar tech company?

And I know you all feel very strongly about Ian, Molly's dad. Yeah. Yeah, we love him. He's just incredible. Yeah, I think, I mean, It's exactly what Neve said. It's hard. It's hard. Like, even for us, we're only 20.

We're only speaking out now because we are getting to a point in time where, as a community and as humans, it does. We're becoming helpless to a lot of things in life. And I feel like everybody, it doesn't matter what age you are anymore. You go on social media and it is, it's constant negativity, whether it's politics, whether it's something else. Like, it is. It's a very miserable place to be nowadays. and I think that reflects onto regular human communication as well and I think we need to just spread awareness

I think we just need to get more of the conversation started I think change will come but the main thing right now is just getting people talking I think Ian's now got his small army now that you've all grown up it's growing though we won't be small for long absolutely whilst I was watching it and it is a brilliant documentary

because it just gives you such a great insight into so many different layers, the way it's been made, the parallels between the time that you were growing up and what was happening in tech and the advancement of technology and social media. But something that really struck me was also you're a group of young women who have had to go through a huge trauma.

And in the most formative time of your life, you lost your friend at 14. And one of your friends talks about survivors' guilt. And she said it could have been any one of us. So how, like, I mean, this will always be with you. Yeah. So do you talk about that amongst yourselves? I mean, we talk about her all the time. It's like every time we see each other, it's like she's in the other room.

And she's always going to be with us. But yeah, no, there is a sense of Survivor's guilt because I think it was Neve who said her. It could have been any one of us, you know. That content was everywhere. So it could, genuinely, it could have been anyone and it just happened to be Molly. Do you remember what your relationship? relationship was like with social media when you were at that time? It was very, very, I would say, like, anxiety-ridden.

There was so much pressure around what do you post. What do people think of what you're posting? You know, do I look pretty in this? And it can be a lot. You know, a 14-year-old shouldn't be worrying about that. You should be worrying about, you know, your schoolwork and your family and your friends. But there was just this added extra pressure. which just didn't need to be there.

What would you say to then? Go on, sorry. I was just going to say, and for what really? Because, I mean, if the so-called intention of all of these apps and sharing platforms are to, you know, just, it's like a digital scrapbook and you just post your memories and this, then why is everybody? Because it is, it's every single person that posts on anything. There is a pressure because you know people are going to look at what you're posting.

And whether you care or not, that is a thought that's going to pass your head. People are going to view this, what I'm putting out there. And I feel like psychologically, like that can't be good for you. Like you have to be happy with what you're doing. And I think, yeah, there's just such a, there's so many things that need to be looked into with social media. Yeah. Who do you hope will watch this film?

I hope. You know, as many people as possible. Do you think young people, teenagers? You know what? I really, really hope so. I think this could really open their eyes and be beneficial for them. Because I think there's a lot of parents who are at a loss as to what to do. Yeah.

And they find it really difficult. We've thought about it loads on this programme. And it's like, you know, war breaks out when it comes to the telephone. Yeah. I mean, I remember it with my parents. It's so hard. And I mean, neither of us have kids. But I can imagine, like, because I obviously was that child in that experience,

you don't listen to your parents. Like, they just... They can't relate. Yeah. We weren't grown on social media. We grew up with it. Yeah. So how can they understand when they...

they're speaking to us about it. So I think that's why it's so important for people like me and Sophie, who did grow up on social media because we were the Guinea Pig generation, to actually have these discussions because hopefully young people will listen and be able to relate. Charlotte Campbell and Sophie Conlon there talking to me on Thursday's program. And a spokesperson from Meta said, our thoughts remain with Molly's friends and family. We know parents and teens want a safe experience online,

which is why we've spent over a decade working with UK experts, parents and charities to build protections for teens into our platforms. This includes defaulting all teens under 18 into private accounts, restricting who can message them and the content they see, while giving parents the option to supervise their teens accounts. And Molly versus the Machines has its world premiere at the Glasgow Film Festival and in more than 50 cinemas nationwide this Sunday. It will then be shown on Channel 4 on Thursday, the 5th of March at 9pm.

And once again, if you've been affected by anything you've heard in this conversation or in the program, then please do visit the BBC Action Line website where you'll find links to support groups and organizations. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed.

And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Still to come on the program, the actor and creator of we might regret this, Kyla Harris.

And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, Just subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Now on Tuesday's program, in collaboration with our Send in the Spotlight podcast, we brought you a special program on the impact of the government's send reforms in England, the biggest shake-up in a generation. The detail released in the government's white paper comes after years of discussions

on what is needed for children and young people with special educational needs and disabilities. Nula spoke to the school's standards. Minister Georgia Gould about those proposed changes, and she began by asking her what she thought would be the trickiest of things to pull off. I think the trickiest thing for me is ensuring that parents really have confidence in what we're trying to do, because I have spent months talking to families and they have been so badly let down. Parents who have had to fight for years and often experience kind of real failure in relation to their children's lives.

you know, everything they've said hasn't been heard. And, you know, it's a massive shift to turn that around for families. And they need to really be part of the change and be confident in what we're trying to achieve. So I think working with them and ensuring that they're staying part of this conversation is the most important thing for me. So confidence. Yeah, I suppose we could also add trust to that one as well. So let's get into some of the specifics. Yeah, lots of new information in the reforms, some confusion. I want to bring actor, send parents.

and send in the Spotlight podcast regular Kelly Bright. There's so much to talk about, but I'm going to talk about the ISP, because we are one of those families that would almost definitely not qualify for an EHCP under these new changes. And to be quite honest, I don't understand what an ISP is. I have so many questions, an individual support plan that is delivered by schools, chosen by schools, delivered by schools. It has tiered levels targeted, targeted plus.

What does that actually translate to? What is the legal basis for this piece of paper? And what happens if my son's ISP isn't being delivered the way I think it should be? So many questions. Let's tackle one of them. Individual Support Plan, ISP, EHCP, which Kelly mentions there is an education, health and care plan, which is a document that legally entitles you to support.

But what about the legal basis? If somebody has an ISP, do they actually have a legal entitlement to everything that is documented in that plan? So the individual support plan will be on a legal footing. Schools are going to have a legal duty to develop inclusion plans and to develop individual support plans. And those will be overseen by Ostead. And if a parent is unhappy with what is in their individual support plan, they will be able to go to the school complaint system and we are introducing a new role,

an independent send role, that will be looking at what's in that provision. But I think just taking a step back, why we've developed the individual support plan is because so many families have told me that at the moment, getting an EHCP is the only route to support, and often that takes years. Parents have said they've spent tens of thousands of pounds,

and there's nothing underneath that. And we are creating new layers of support that are funded underneath the EHCP. So the EHCP is still there, but there are 1.2 million children who don't have EHCPs who have send. And this is a new entitlement for those children. Lairz is one word that might strike fear

into the hearts of parents that have gone through so many layers of bureaucracy before. But I do want to get to that point. Can I just address that point of layers? Because I think there's been a real confusion. Let us come back to Lairs in just one moment. I just want to go to the legal footing that particular term.

because you say schools, for example, they're on a legal footing to create these plans. But I'm still not clear on whether what is written in the ISP is a statutory entitlement for those parents. Is that a legal document that they are entitled to everything that is said in that document? There will be a legal basis to develop these documents. They'll have to have regard to the national inclusion standards that we're setting out. So what that actually looks like in practice, a document. targeted child who was receiving targeted support, it might be that their individual support plan sets out their reasonable adjustment. So, you know, that they need a movement break every hour

because otherwise they struggle to concentrate in a lesson. That, of course, you know, is a reasonable adjustment is something that they are legally entitled to or that they need to go to lunch 10 minutes early or that they have a kind of small group session around reading. But then at that targeted plus level, it might set out that they have access to speech and language therapy or to an inclusion base. But I think the real difference is that we are actually funding this. So we are putting ring fence funding in place for schools to be able to deliver this and 1.8 billion to deliver those experts at hand, the specialists that sit around schools to mean that schools can deliver what's in them. But the thing I wanted to say about layers,

because I think it's important, is you don't need to move through everything. every layer to get support. You can go straight into an assessment for a specialist place. You can go straight into targeted parts. These are not hoops you need to jump into, but these are layers of support that are available to schools as part of the mainstream system to support your child. I think the hoop that people might be concerned about, because at the moment with an EHCP, for example, you go to tribunal. It's over 90% where the parents are successful in getting what they're legally entitled to. It's an adversarial process. Everybody agrees on that.

However, with this, the only recourse they will have is to go to the school and start a complaint system again. So every parent will still have access to an assessment for a specialist provision package. So if a parent feels that their support is not being met by the individual support plan, by the targeted plus layer, they could ask for an assessment, as they do now, for an EHCP. And if they were unhappy with the outcome of that assessment, they could still go to the tribunal. So that access point is still there. This is about putting layers of support below that that are properly funded. Because many families have told me, even when they have any HTTP,

that actually the support isn't there to back it up. But we are backing this up by £4 billion of investment. So that when something is set out in the individual support plan, children are able to access it. And I wouldn't underestimate the power of Ofsted looking at this because this is what, you know, this is really important to schools what Ostead say, and that accountability will be powerful in the system. You talk about $4 billion.

There is, and projected a shortfall by the OBOR of six in the coming years. So some people saying that that is not enough money. But I do want to turn to EHCPs because it's a major concern for parents with children that have them, the education, health and care plans. In the future, they will be reassessed at the end of primary school. And the question is, could they lose those legal entitlements to support at that? point, it appears that they could. Why that timing, so many parents have told me that it's precisely the worst time to reassess children as they transition between schools. So as you're aware that

every year in EHCP is reviewed in any case. But there is a difference, I feel, between the word review and reassessment. A review could be looking at how well the child is doing or what might be added. A reassessment, that word, and it has frightened some parents, it makes them feel that it's trying to figure out, is this child still eligible? What we're talking about is the transition point to the new system. So there are three really important things that I would like to say to parents about this and three really important points of reassurance. The first is if their child is in a special school, they will remain a special school. If they're in a special primary, they can go to a special secondary. If they want to come into the mainstream system, some might,

They can, but they will be able to remain in a specialist setting as we go forward, regardless of that transition into the new system. If they are the parent of a child with an EHCP in a mainstream setting, we're really, really clear that we will not transition anyone into the new system until 2030. And in the meantime, we will build up that new system, all the investment I've talked about, all the national inclusion standards, Ofsted looking into schools, the teacher training, the development at 3.7 billion into new places. All of that will be in place before we transition anyone. And the third is nobody will transition from an EHCP until the individual support plan. It is in place. But yeah, there will be some children.

But what about that particular age, you know, whether it's into a much bigger school, whether it's children about to go through puberty. They say it's just the worst time, particularly for children with send. It can be a crucial time. Why not earlier or later? Why that timing? Because we felt it was a natural point to transition when you're moving through education stages. We expect that of children who have existing EHCPs, and we put this in the document, about one in eight will transition over to individual support plans. And for those children, if they moved into secondary, every secondary school were expecting to have an inclusion blaze.

Every secondary school will have access to 160 days of specialist support. every secondary school teacher will have to be trained to support children of special educational needs and disabilities. So they'd be moving with an individual support plan that laid out all of their needs, their reasonable adjustments, the interventions they needed, if they needed access to an inclusion base. So they'd be moving with a whole host of support, whether they were moving within the HCP or an individual support plan.

This is not about taking support away from families. Staying with another aspect of the HCP, some that we're hearing from feel that it's already been decided that children with autism and ADHD won't get an EHCP after the reassessment. Is that true? No, the specialist provision packages are not set out on conditions. And I think it would be really helpful for families worried about this to have a look at the draft specialist provision packages we've set out.

So these have been developed by experts. We've had an expert advisory group who've supported us. And they set out three categories of groups that we expect. to need access to specialist support in the new system. So one are children who have physical disabilities, multi-sensory needs. Some of those children will really want to be at mainstream, getting a mainstream.

Curriculum, many of them will be. But, you know, if you're a child who's visually impaired, you'll need access to assistive technology, qualified teachers of a visually impaired, habilitation support, that wraparound package. The second group of children are children with social and emotional learning needs, and that includes internalizing and externalizing, and you'll see within the description, there are children with ADHD and autism

who particularly can fit into some of those categories in terms of their needs. And the third is children with learning difficulties and needs around executive function, communication needs. So this is not the final list, but we wanted to show parents the kind of needs we were thinking about. And there will be an independent panel of experts, educators, health experts, who will work with parents, young people, disabled children's organisations to set out which of the children we really think need that specialist provision package, set that out very clearly.

So to really give reassurance to families, this is not saying this condition gets this, this condition gets that, this is about the needs of your child. And some children with autism can thrive in a mainstream school with support and some do need specialist support. And we'll have that distinction in the new system. It is a consultation which I want to. much so. That's really important. We want to hear people's views on what we've set out.

The School's Standards Minister, Georgia Gould there. And to listen back to the full program, then do go to BBC Sounds. It's Tuesday's episode. There's a link to the consultation on the Women's Hour episode page. And to check out all episodes of our Send in the Spotlight podcast, just search for it on BBC Sounds. Now you are in for a treat. We might regret this is back for a second series on our TV screens.

The first series follows the live. and relationships of Freya, a tetraplegic artist in her 30s who's moved to London to be with her older partner, Abe. Freya, who uses a wheelchair, is followed by quite the entourage, her chaotic best friend Joe and her clumsy and intrusive personal assistant tie. Its co-creator and star, Kyla Harris, has drawn on her experiences as a disabled person to create this funny and unflinching look at life with a disability. Claire began by asking her what inspired the series. My best friend Lee Getty is the co-writer and co-creator of We Might Regret This. And we met in film school about 20 years ago, eke, aging myself. And we have such an incredible friendship.

And our kind of platonic romance really inspired this series. Which is beautifully portrayed in your friendships in the actual comedy itself, comedy drama. should I say. Tell us your story then, because it's absolutely fascinating. I'm saying backstory, but the point you started at and you came to this incredible creative moment in your life about, you know, how you became disabled. So I was 15 and I had an accident and I had never, what I thought was I'd never known someone who was disabled before my accident. But I think I had later, I've come to realize that I've just had a very narrow view of what it meant to be disabled. And I think part of the series, what we're trying to do is also look at how we

redefine disability, how we reframe it. Disability has not had the best branding and marketing PR people that we would like. And now it's really time to change that. And I think, so I require 24-hour care. And so does the character Freya in this. series and Lee was my friend and we were going to be going to travel to the UK together and I said, look, would you be up for doing my care in exchange for me buying you a plane ticket? And she said, I'll have to think about it. Five minutes later, she came back and said yes. And she instantly became my personal care assistant. And we traveled through Europe together with her doing my personal care and got up to obviously loads of mischief. We were in our early 20s.

And we experienced so many incredible moments of intimacy. And it really changed our friendship. And it made it, I believe, so much stronger. And I think that's the inspiration for the series, is that people who are disabled are often portrayed as being inspirations or objects of tragedy. And we were looking at how can we find a disabled person to create this character where people see a disabled person with more nuance. Well, you certainly started series one with The Bang quite literally to try and turn that on its head because there's a sex scene with Freya and her partner. Did you think, what the hell, this is a statement of intent, let's go for it?

Absolutely. I think disabled people are so often viewed as being as sexual. And it was really important for us to say, like, look, you can live a totally normal life as a disabled person, an exciting life. And you can have a sex life and you can fall in love and you can have incredible relationships and everything else that everyone has in life. I think a lot of people are afraid of disability or becoming disabled. disabled because they think that will lead to isolation or lack of connection, a lack of opportunity. And in some ways, there are those things. But it can also be a way of creating more connection, more opportunity. And that's what we found. Yeah, I'm interested to talk a little bit about, you know, through the character of Tai, who's Freya's personal assistant, and that intrusion, she immediately asked Freya, oh, can you have sex with your partner?

You found that personally, didn't you, that there is a line that people feel they can cross quite regularly with people with a disability? Yes, absolutely. I will be staying on the side of the road, waiting for a friend, just on my phone, doing my thing, and someone will come up to me and say, what happened to you?

What's wrong with you? And the third question is usually, can you have sex? Wow. And I think people feel very entitled to say anything that they want to a disabled person. And I know a lot of the time it's based on curiosity, but these are our stories to own.

What happened to me is my story to own. Because you wouldn't dream of walking up to somebody that you'd never met in the street and asking them such personal questions, would you? Absolutely. I want to also talk then about grief, because this is one of the topics that is highlighted, the relationship between Freya and her partner.

He's older, he's able-bodied, he's got a complex family life behind him, which unraveled years before by the sudden death of his eldest son. So why explore the long-term effects of grief as part of the storyline, and how do both of those characters kind of overlap in that sense? I absolutely love that question, Claire,

and I would also just want to say I'd really encourage you to use the term non-disabled rather than able-bodied. For instance, I have a very able and capable body, in so many ways, but I'm still disabled. So, and also, like, I commend you as well for taking that really well and me saying that. Not at all. Not at all.

You're being okay with it. Absolutely. Of course I am. I think so many people are afraid of, quote, unquote, making a mistake when it comes to disability. I really encourage people to make mistakes because it starts conversations. Yeah. So the grief that those, in a way, she suffered and he suffered. Why did you want to get into that?

Well, on paper, Abe and Freya aren't a typical match. And I think that a lot of people don't see grief as a positive thing, but I think it can create connection and understanding and empathy. And I think that's what's happened with Abe and Freya. They've both experienced grief in very different ways. Abe lost a child and Freya is going through the process. as we all constantly, there's never an end to grief. There's always a beginning, but there's never an end to grief.

And that's what connects these two characters. I wanted to take that back, actually, to when you were in hospital after you had your accident, and the surgeon came in and said, can you just tell everybody what he said to you? Yeah, of course. I called this doctor. I labeled him something after this because he came in, and it was almost like I was, it felt like I was in a film or a TV series. And he almost said it with such dramatic effect to my mum and I.

He said, you will never walk again. I heard that tragedy and that trauma in his voice. And automatically, my response to that was internally, well, then I don't want to live. That's tough. Yeah. And how long did it take you to turn that around? I mean, it must have been devastating anyway

and then to have that heaped on top. Yeah, I think that. I had really associated being able to use my hands and being able to use my legs with life. And that I suppose about 15 years after my accident, I just started living every single day. I just kept going. And it's just become an accumulation of days up until now that brings me here. But I suppose about 10 years ago, I kind of thought, well, why? I reflected on why I felt that when I heard that news.

And I realized it was because of the media that I'd ingested around disability being seen as either, as a fate worse than death. And I really wanted to turn that around so that someone who is disabled or becomes disabled, a doctor will come to them and say, look, your life might not be what you expected it to be, but it's going to be magnificent. and how that would have changed my outlook if that had happened to me. And I think that's also about the series, is like all of these characters are experiencing a life that they didn't think would happen. Kyla Harris speaking to Claire there, and you can find all episodes of We Might Regret This on the BBC Eye Player. That's it from me on Monday, Middle March.

It's regarded as one of the most important novels in the English language. Its author was George Elliott, the chosen pseudonym of Mary Ann Evans. while Nula will be finding out about a new play about the young Mary Ann, a woman desperate to break with convention and find her own voice. Do enjoy the rest of your weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm John York, and I want to tell you about opening lines,

a series from BBC Radio 4, in which I'll be looking at books, plays, poems and stories of all kinds that have made a mark and asking, what makes them work? I mean, this stuff is jar-dropping the show. Shagging. I'll be asking lots of questions. What's at the heart of the story? How does it achieve its effect? What makes it special? History is usually written by winners, but he wants to give a voice to people who are not usually heard. I'll be hearing from people who know and love these works, writers. We do have an orgasm evoked on the page. Dramatists, biographers. It's worn better as a

book about England than it has as a book about sex, I think. And directors too. In the end, I'll be asking, what makes this work worth reading now? Join me to find out in opening lines from BBC Radio 4 and available on BBC sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed.

And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts.