Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Twiggy, Misogyny and boys, Lucy Edwards, Segregation, Mhairi Black, Nieve Ella

Episode Date: March 8, 2025

Twiggy turned the modelling world upside down with her androgynous style, big round eyes, bold eyelashes, and pixie haircut, becoming a defining figure and fashion icon of the swinging 60s. Considered the world’s first supermodel, she went on to have a successful career in acting and singing, earning two Golden Globes and a Tony nomination, designed fashion ranges, appeared as a judge on America’s Next Top Model, and was awarded a damehood for services to the fashion, arts and charity. A new documentary, Twiggy, directed by Sadie Frost, is out in cinemas now. Twiggy joined Krupa Padhy to talk about her long career.Kyle Clifford was found guilty of raping his ex-girlfriend in an attack in which he murdered her, her mother and her sister. Louise, Hannah and Carol Hunt were murdered two weeks after Louise ended her relationship with him. It has been revealed that prosecutors said "violent misogyny" promoted by social media influencer Andrew Tate "fuelled" his attacks. However, the defence argued this material had too vague a link and was far too prejudicial to be heard by the jury. As we hear this news, concerns rise again about the influence of people like self-described misogynist Andrew Tate, and there are calls for his content to be taken down. Anita was joined by Michael Conroy, founder of Men at Work, which works with teachers and boys in schools to challenge sexist and misogynistic content online and Laura Bates, founder of the Everyday Sexism project who campaigns for gender equality to discuss how we can protect our children from, especially boys, from this.Journalist and disability activist Lucy Edwards has just published her debut fiction book, Ella Jones vs the Sun Stealer, a mystery aimed at younger readers. It tells the story of 12-year-old Ella Jones who has been blind for two years and is navigating her new world with the help of her guide dog Maisie, her sister Poppy and her best friend Finn. She joined Krupa to talk about the book and her experiences sharing her own story online.We discuss the extraordinary story of how and why an autistic woman was locked up in a mental health hospital for 45 years. For 25 of those she was in long term segregation. Nuala McGovern talked to reporter Carolyn Atkinson about how the woman was eventually freed and to campaigner Alexis Quinn who is autistic and spent three years in a mental health hospital including time in segregation before she escaped. She now campaigns for the Restraint Reduction Network charity about the more than 2,000 other autistic people and or those with learning disabilities who are still in mental health hospitals, many of whom shouldn’t be. In May 2015, 20 year-old Mhairi Black was the youngest person for more than a century to become a Member of Parliament – and she then remained a Westminster MP until standing down at the 2024 election. A new BBC documentary follows her last six months in that role and looks at what her future could hold in a new career as a stand-up comedian. Now 30, she joined Anita Rani to reflect on her years in Parliament and what she’d like to see change about the way it functions.Nieve Ella is currently on tour, playing to packed venues and solidifying her place as a rising star in indie music. With a distinctive online presence and an ever-growing fanbase, she’s proving that Gen Z artists are reshaping the industry on their own terms. Nieve performed the track Sweet Nothings with Finn Marlow. Presenter: Anita Rani

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme. Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks it will take to feel truly alive.

If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds, music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Coming up, Twiggy, the face of 1966 fashion icon, actor and singer on the new documentary about her life directed by Sadie Frost and the journey that made her a global star. The extraordinary stories of autistic women who have been locked up in mental health hospitals

who are not mentally ill. We'll hear what needs to change from those who've been affected. Also, at just 20 years old, Mari Black became a member of Parliament, a seriously impressive young woman who had an ability to speak very clearly about what she believed in. Only ten years later, and she's left politics to become a stand-up comedian. Lots to get through, so let's get started. Twiggy. She turned the modelling world upside down with her teenage, androgynous style, big round eyes, bold eyelashes and pixie haircut. She became a defining figure and fashion icon of the swinging sixties. She was the girl next door who went on to be considered

one of the world's first supermodels and then came a successful career in acting and singing, earning two Golden Globes and a Tony nomination. She designed fashion ranges, appeared as a judge on America's Next Top Model and was awarded a Damehood for her services to fashion, arts and charity. Well, a new documentary, Twiggy, directed by Sadie Frost, is out in cinemas now. Twiggy joined Creeper Paddy this week and she asked her how it felt to watch all that footage of herself from over the decades. It was very emotional, you know, seeing clips of my mum and dad who are not around anymore and me very much younger and my daughter very much younger and obviously it goes through my whole life so there's happy moments and there's sad moments like any life so I cried through a lot

of it. I think Sadie's done an amazing job to put it all together. Yes and as you rightly highlighted it takes us back to those early days those tender days because you were so young Tricky I mean you were young but yet you're being told things like you're too short, you're too thin and really you have the Daily Express to thank for your fame in those early days making you the face of 1966 but you were just 16 years old. That's a lot to take on at such a tender age. I know I mean I owe a lot to Deirdre McSherry who was the journalist who wrote that headline Twiggy the Face of 66, because she

took a punt on it really because I didn't, as you know, I didn't look like the models of the day. So what happened to me on paper shouldn't have happened, but it did and I'm very glad it did. Yeah, that was your path. Let's talk about your style because just 16 but oh my goodness you took the fashion world by storm with those statement big eyelashes. First of all tell us how you achieve that and was that your style? Was that the twiggy style? Yeah I mean I was you know like most teenage girls I played with makeup. I went to a grammar school so we weren't allowed makeup in the week but weekends

my friends and I would play with makeup like all teenage girls probably still do and I had a rag doll in my bedroom and she had those spiky eyelashes under her eyes so I was playing around putting false eyelashes on the top drawing the ones underneath and it kind of evolved it was my because in when I started modeling we would do our own makeup. I mean, I think Joanne Alumley talks about having to arrive at the studio ready, made up. We didn't have makeup artists like they do today. So I did that myself. And I was a mod before the whole thing happened to me. So I was very into clothes. I used to make all my own clothes and obviously the mini skirt had

just hit and that kind of became one of my looks. Yes and I'm right thinking it was three pairs of false eyelashes pulled. It was three pairs. That's quite something. You were in many ways Twiggy considered the first model that people could relate to. I mean would you put that down to what you've spoken quite openly about your working class roots? Yeah I mean I think again but you've got to remember if I'd have gone to a model agency then in 1966 they wouldn't have taken me because I was on their books too small and too slim. So you know what happened to me as I said shouldn't have happened and I think most models in those days came from either upper-class families or middle-class families and I came from a

very happy family but a working-class family. And so it hadn't even gone into my mindset to try and become a model because that didn't happen to girls like me. And I hope the film will show young girls out there, young boys out there, that actually you can be different, you can be unique and you should just, you know, go for your dreams really if you have the chance. Look, growing up in North West London we do also see footage of your parents, whom you're very close to. Again, you've spoken very openly about that. Your mum was a factory worker, your dad was a master carpenter.

You've also spoken about your mum being quite depressed at times, but at the time it wasn't something you were aware of. Not really, because I was the youngest of three sisters so my elder sister was 15 years older than me so she almost became like a second mum to me and mum was fine for a lot of the time and then she'd have a low and she'd go to hospital and ended up having electric shock treatment. But you know I was kind of protected by my wonderful dad who was amazing and my sisters and it wasn't until I became an adult that I realized you know they just say oh mom's not very well and I used to like going to see her in hospital because my dad

would take her grapes and I'd get to eat them. How did they reflect on your fame at such a tender age? I know and we are going to speak about Justin at the time who was your partner at the time or your manager and boyfriend but you know you you'd come under the umbrella of your parents and your older sisters and suddenly you're you're rising mountains and climbing to such heights. Yeah it was weird because it all happened so quickly you know one minute I was at school and next one you know two months later I was in Paris doing the Paris, the French collections.

And then nine months later I was in New York, which is the thing that really changed my life going to America. Because Diana Vreeland, who was the editor of American Vogue, had read about me and she took me over to New York and that's when it kind of you know the Beatles had gone in about three or four years before me and I went in in 1967 so I was kind of part I was part of the British

invasion and when I arrived in New York City you know there were girls at the airport with banners with my name I mean it was really peculiar for me. I didn't expect that and all the press were there and I remember the first journalist say you know welcome Twiggy what do you think of New York and I said well I've only just landed. All I've seen is the runway. And with you by your side was your manager who then became your boyfriend Justin de Villeneuve. He was 25 at the time, you were obviously just 16. How do you look back on that relationship and travelling the

world together now? Well, obviously he protected me. You know, all this that came out later about what models and actresses go through didn't happen to me because I had if he wasn't around my part of the deal of me leaving school My dad said you've got to have a chaperone So if he if Justin wasn't there my dad was there or my mom was there So I was completely protected as a young girl. So I didn't know any of that happened I was quite green really and you know, and it wasn't you know And then suddenly I met the most wonderful man called Ken Russell who was gonna cast me in a film that didn't

happen we became very good friends him and his wife and a year later he cast me in The Boyfriend which completely changed my life when I started filming that it was like going for me it was like going into the secret garden and it was like oh my and that's why I changed career Because it opened up all new doors of doing a TV series having a record contract But I I hadn't planned to do that, but then I hadn't planned to model so You know, I was given the opportunities and hopefully I grabbed them as strongly as I could same as going on Broadway who I mean Who would have thought I'd have ended up on Broadway doing a big Broadway show? Not me.

Triggy, you say you were green when you headed out there, but actually what I saw in some of that documentary was a strong and feisty young girl. There is this one instance which really stood out where you interact with a young Woody Allen who asked you what your views are on serious matters and specifically who your favorite philosopher is and your reply was a masterful one tell us about that. Well really you've got to go and see the film to get the whole impact of it but it was extraordinary and looking at it now I just think it was quite a mean thing to do to a young innocent girl that I was. I certainly wouldn't do that to a young newcomer. But, no, I think, you know, when he started throwing those questions at me, my main feeling was embarrassment because I couldn't answer them. And then I wanted

desperately for him to help me and that's why I was kind of pleading with him, will you tell me yours? You know, what were their names? And he couldn't come up with it either. It was brilliant but also, you know, you have also had male interviewers asking you out that time considerably about your weight, commenting on you being flat chested, being blamed for encouraging girls not to eat. How do you reflect on that now? Well I don't think they get away with it now would they? It was kind of part of the norm. I mean again Joanna Lumley is brilliant in the piece she talks about of how most models were treated in that day which I found

amazing because that didn't really happen to me although again you do hear these photographers saying some extraordinary things but on the other hand I did work with some extraordinary wonderful photographers who were complete gentlemen people like Richard Avedon Barry Lattigan who took my first photograph, Melvin Sikorski they were all amazing to me and you know changed my life. Twiggy there and the documentary Twiggy directed by Sadie Frost is out in cinemas now. Now a man has been found guilty of raping his ex-girlfriend in an attack in which he murdered her and her sister with a crossbow and her mother with a knife. Louise Hanna

and Carol Hunt were murdered by Kyle Clifford two weeks after Louise ended her relationship with him. It's been revealed that prosecutors said violent misogyny promoted by social media influencer Andrew Tate fuelled his attacks. He searched for Tate's podcast less than 24 hours before the murders and there have been reports that detectives found evidence that he'd downloaded at least 10 videos of the social media influencer. However, the defence argued this material had too vague a link and was far too prejudicial to be heard by the jury. As we hear this news concerns rise again about the influence of people like self-described misogynist Andrew Tate

and there are calls for his content to be taken down. But when it comes to this type of misogynistic content online, how can we protect our children, especially our boys, from its influence? Well, I was joined by Michael Conroy, who's the founder of Men at Work, which works with teachers and boys in schools to challenge this kind of content, and Laura Bates, who's the founder of the Everyday Sexism Project who campaigns for gender equality and began by asking Laura how surprised was she to see that a link had been made by prosecutors to this content? Not terribly surprised. I think the surprising thing is for it to be in the open. We know

that Jake Davison, who carried out the biggest mass shooting that the UK has seen in 10 years, was immersed in incel ideology online. But that wasn't something that was really talked about in the media. In the days before he carried out his massacre, he had searched for Elliot Rogers, who was a killer who was, of course, very much well known for his extreme misogyny. I think we have to face up to the fact that this content is extremism, we need to describe it as such.

And we need to recognise that when vulnerable young men are being immersed in this content online, it is a form of radicalisation, a form of grooming, just like any other. Until we recognise that, and until we speak about killers who have explicitly acted in the name of these ideologies, which isn't necessarily the case here, but until we describe those men as terrorists, which is the right term for them, we're not going to get to grips with this because we're not taking it seriously. Michael, what sorts of things are these boys seeing online? What are they accessing? What's going on? The worst things you can imagine, there is no limit. There's no limit. Pornography unfortunately is a central script

in the lives of boys in terms of how they learn about sex and I think porn is probably a central tenet that underpins lots of forms of extremism, you know, in terms of far-right Islamic fundamentalism or whatever it is, the common thread there between lots of the men who are involved in those things that commit atrocities, like Laura's alluded to there, is a hatred of women or certainly a sense that men are superior and women are just there to serve us. And I think that is loud and clear in Tate takes garbage online. I think maybe people see Andrew Tate as an inventor of something. He is not.

I think he's an opportunist who's exploited a lot of kind of lucky coincidence for him in terms of algorithmic development, ubiquity of porn. And I think without porn, he'd be nowhere. On his own, he says nothing new. But we do need to talk with our boys and constructively and optimistically, but really systematically as well and not just wait for after the event when things have happened, because that is the wrong context in which to have dialogues.

But why is he able to get to them though, Michael? What is his appeal, him and people like him? Why are they... because we've talked about Laura was talking about, you know, being terrorism and being groomed and extremism and you're talking about extreme misogyny and pornography. So what is the appeal for young men? I boil it down to three things, porn and pornification, and that includes gaming and the gaming world and all that hinterland and advertising. I also think money and the worship of money in our culture is a central plank of on which Andrew Tate stands. And the third thing I think is a key part of the appeal

is he appears not to care about accountability or the impact of what he does. And I think that appeals to boys, and I'm saying boys and young men, who are not developed properly, they're not mature, they've not grown up. And I'm not trying to let him off the hook by infantilising him,

but I'm suggesting that perhaps that appeal to a kind of adolescent desire to get away with stuff. So Laura, what effect is all of this having on women and girls? Well, of course, it's a huge impact. And one of the things we rarely talk about is the connection between this real streamlining of extreme misogyny towards men and boys, the funneling of it towards teenage boys by algorithms,

and the connection that has with the epidemic of violence against girls that we are seeing in our schools. We know that about 70% of young people hear girls being called sluts and slags weekly at school. We know that almost a third of 16 to 18 year old girls say they experience unwanted sexual touching at school. And we know from a BBC Freedom of Information request that there were on average over a three year period around one rate per day of the school term reported to police from UK schools. So this is this is huge you know this is a should be considered a public health crisis and we only see the tip of the iceberg. A popular narrative at the moment that you will see lots of people spouting which is that boys are being

driven to look for people like Andrew Tate because of feminism. Feminism is making boys feel bad about themselves. And that's nonsense. Boys don't go looking for Andrew Tate. They don't need to. The thing that drives boys to Andrew Tate is not modern feminism. It is algorithms. So a piece of the puzzle here is social media regulation. And both of you go into schools and train teachers and educators. What are you hearing from the people that you're talking to who are on the front line talking to teenagers about it? Laura?

One of the missing pieces of the puzzle here is the extent of misogyny and sexual harassment and abuse that female teachers are themselves experiencing in the classroom. 70% of one teaching union's members recently surveyed, 70% of female teachers said that they are experiencing misogyny in the classroom, in the workplace. And it's right that we're calling on schools to do more to tackle this, but they can't do it on their own. They need training, they need resources, they need support to understand how to tackle this. And too often, teachers teachers aren't given that and then they're expected to magically know how to tackle this, how to deal with it and it's overwhelming and it's really really difficult. We need men in schools

to be involved in these conversations. Michael, cue Michael. 100% well I totally agree with what Laura just said there. In fact, I'm very skeptical of a model in which visitors are the only people who will talk to boys about this thing, tick box, tell off dead thing. And but I also know the pressures that schools are under, they can't do it all. They have to wake kids up and give them breakfast to make sure they're not gaining all night. I mean, it's just insane. And therefore we've developed this market where pressurized school buy in from the wild west. And I see, you know, I hands up, I'm part of that of an unregulated system. They buy in and they end up paying for crazy stuff.

Like people coming in saying choking is okay, as long as you get consent. No, no, no, there's no oversight. So there's a whole world of problems here. And can we end this conversation about any kind of hope for the future? Go on, Laura. The vital thing for parents is not to panic. This is a mixed picture.

We're not talking about every boy having been groomed into extremism. I'm meeting loads of boys in schools who are standing up to this stuff, who are really radicalized into wanting to help and support. And that's great as well. You know, they're politicised, I should say, not radicalised. I think the key thing here is little and often, it's not one big terrifying, uncomfortable

conversation after your child has already seen loads of this stuff online. It's not about telling boys what to think. It's not about telling them off. So I think just having those conversations as often as possible in a low-key way when you're in the car, you know, those kinds of moments, rather than one big scary thing that feels like an accusation. Michael Conroy and Laura Bates there. And if you've been affected by anything you heard in that discussion, then please do go to the BBC Action Line website for support links.

Now, Ella Jones vs. The Sunstealer is the first children's book by presenter and campaigner Lucy Edwards. You may be familiar with Lucy from her social media accounts where she's built up a big following sharing her life as a blind woman online. Lucy's lustrous red locks also feature on the Pantene shampoo advert and she's recently been announced as an ambassador for the Royal National Institute for the Blind. Her new book follows 12-year-old Ella, whose lack of sight gives her the upper hand when the world goes dark after a vengeful god wreaks havoc on the world. Lucy joined Creeper this week and she began by asking her where the idea for the book started. I absolutely had no representation of blindness, like authentic representation when I was a little girl.

Going blind when I was 17 but also having a visual impairment basically all my childhood. You know, I would look to different books and stories and on telly, online and there'd be nothing. So I was kind of scared to be blind when I eventually lost my eyesight. So for me, Ella Jones is just, you know, the quote unquote normal. I don't really like using the word normal, but she's just an amazing kid that is resilient and all of these different things. She doesn't have any superpowers so you know the trope of I guess you know we've got lovely Daredevil. I absolutely adore Daredevil as like a franchise and series but I think you know it becomes problematic when that is the only representation and for me it's not authentic you know to my experience

because I don't have supersonic hearing. But so when we follow Ella, you know, she is a 12 year old girl who's lost her vision, but the world around her is the thing that needs fixing. And that's what I always say, because I believe in the social model of disability. And she's so confident. Like I wish I had Ella's confidence.

Well, I feel like you do. How much is Ella's character based on you? So much. I've got all of my like 29 year old wisdom and shoved it into her really. Like I would have wanted to be her when I was younger and you know through her friendship with her sister Poppy which is very much based on me and my sister. There's only 15 months between us. And she got me through so much of my sight loss journey. We're so close. And that's why I always say I love blindness

because it's given me wings and given me my voice and a purpose. And that's what we want in life, isn't it? As humans is to have a purpose to push us forward. And we see her best friend, Finn, and also her guide dog Miss Maze who's based on my gorgeous guide dog who's at my feet now Miss Molly so yeah it's very lovely.

As you say there are so many layers to Ella as a character. She also teaches us both young and old a great deal throughout the book and you do hear about how she's adapted to life living with her blindness. I love for example how she chooses her outfits each day. Can you just explain this? Yeah, of course. So she, like me, labels her outfits and I just wanted this to just be a very, again, normal part of her life because it is just every day. For me, blindness isn't scary. It's not something that I want fixing, it's just something that is just my day to day, like I've lived it for 12 years now. So for her, she labels her clothes and she has this pen that she hovers over on her hanger and it details what outfit she's wearing. She uses also a colour detector which is what I do. Tools and technology is

amazing when you have a disability. Empowering people is something that you are so passionate about and you often do this through the videos that you share online about your activism, your broader work and you've also shared videos of yourself doing beauty for years and it's something that people might not expect when it comes to a blind content creator. Why is that important to you? So important because beauty isn't just what we see, it's what is within. I always preach that and you know beauty for me was rehabilitation. When I lost my eyesight I couldn't look in the mirror and I was distraught. I always loved makeup and that was my sense of self. I didn't want to lose myself and I thought oh well you know the world has't want to lose myself. And I thought, oh well, you know, the world

has kind of shut me out. Like I'd walk into supermarkets and still do. And every bottle, every product feels the same. And I think that's why like displaying Ella's world, you know, making the world dark for everybody else really does show that her friends and family have to rely on her and how resilient she is. And, you you know I've done the same with my own family like in real life and it really shocked them that you know I do just navigate this life with With grace eventually, you know, obviously I've had my hurdles, but I think yeah Beauty is just so important to me and I think you know Do my makeup is just the routine that I needed to kind

of tell myself that I am enough just the way I am and I don't need to be fixed and I'm not a burden and all of these different words that I used to feel about myself it was like the ritual of like feeling okay again yeah so I just developed that and I love beauty. Lucy your energy is so contagious I have to say. Thank you. Look there's a favorite video of mine that I do want to highlight, it's from your wedding day.

Yes. And on your wedding day you asked that all of your guests and your husband be blindfolded when you entered. Why was that important to you? Super important. I think I always dreaded walking down the aisle on my wedding day as a blind person and I didn't want to dread it anymore. I actually walked down the aisle to the song Arrival of the Birds by the Cinematic Orchestra and it was a song

featured on The Theory of Everything by Stephen Hawking, it's my favorite film where it's this montage of his life as he acquires his disability and this is what disability is for me. It was the worst moment of my life as he acquires his disability. And this is what disability is for me. It was the worst moment of my life, but the best moment of my life. And I wanted to reflect everything that I've been through when walking down the aisle. And I think just blindfolding someone,

yes, you know, people would say possibly, you know, oh my gosh, it's only giving them a snapshot, but it allows someone who's never been through blindness to draw from that personal experience they have from that moment. And yes, maybe it kind of makes people scared possibly. That's how I felt on the first moments of my blindness. Obviously now I'm not scared of blindness, but it allowed people to really get inside

my mind. And also it allowed my husband to just say, you know, it's okay to be blind. And I love Lucy's reality and we live this together and I don't place, you know, a lot of emphasis on visuals. Like my husband is a visual effects artist, like he runs my companies with me, but he wanted to experience my dress for the first time as I did, you know, because he values that more than anything, my experience. And it's so refreshing, like having that perspective.

I think that's what's made me feel so independent and people coming away from it is just amazing. And we also had Navalan's codes all around my wedding, which is also on the front of my book. And a Navalan's code is something that you can triangulate to. It's a code that you can print on anything. You've probably seen them in Euston station. They're on so many products these days, as well as the front of my book. And it's like a different type of QR code that blind people can scan that is full of geometric shapes. And your phone can just triangulate and find it easier

because I've struggled to find barcodes. And yeah, you can find it with 3D audio, which allows me to navigate to things things including my book which we had all around my wedding as well. Lucy Edwards talking to Krupa there and Lucy's book Ella Jones versus the Sunstealer written in collaboration with author Katie Burchill is out now. Still to come on the programme, former MP Mari Black on leaving politics and becoming a stand-up comedian. And remember you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10am during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to the Daily Podcast. It's

free via BBC Sounds. Next we are going to hear the extraordinary story of how and why an autistic woman was locked up in a mental health hospital for 45 years. For 25 of those she was kept away from other patients and held in what is called long-term segregation. Kaseeba, not her real name, who also has a learning disability and is non-verbal, is finally now living in her own home with a dedicated team of support workers. Her story features in the latest File on Four Investigates. Hundreds of others like her are detained inappropriately and the programme has brought reaction from mothers fighting for the

release. The reporter behind the story is Carolyn Atkinson. Here's an excerpt where Carolyn goes to meet Koseba in her new bungalow with her support workers. Do you want to say hello to the visitors? Yes, so when she crosses her hands that means that she's okay. Ah, so she's crossing her hands? Yes. She's happy to meet us.

Kaseeba, thanks so much for letting us visit. It's lovely to see you. Do you want a cup of tea? I'm going to give her some biscuits. Which one do you want? We need to show her whatever she wants and she chooses by herself. We don't just give it to her. That's a clip of File on Four Investigates. To talk through some of the issues at play here, Nula McGovern was joined by Alexis Quinn, who is also autistic and had her own story of being held in a mental health hospital for three years before escaping. She's now campaigning to help others caught in the same situation. But before that, Nula spoke to Carolyn Atkinson to learn more about Kaseba's life. Well her early childhood is actually pretty sketchy. We know she was originally

from Sierra Leone and she was probably trafficked into the UK before she was even five. Then there was a spell in a children's home but that broke down. And so at the age of seven she was sent to a long stay hospital and that's where she lived at first on a locked shared ward. Now when she was in her late teens and early twenties she was sectioned under the Mental Health Act and that's when she was moved into what's called long term segregation, an annex where she was on her own with a living space and a small garden. Now she was completely on her own there for 25 years for up to 23 hours a day.

The figures are astounding when you put them in. And that's dark relief, Carolyn. But how was Kaseba eventually freed from the hospital? Well, it's actually an incredible story. So back in 2011, after the BBC Panorama programme uncovered criminal abuse of people with learning disabilities at the Winterbourne View Hospital near Bristol, the government started to review autistic people

and those with a learning disability to see who was actually being inappropriately detained. And that's when a rookie clinical psychologist called Dr. Patsy State was sent to see Kaseba and when she met her she felt that the narrative around her didn't make any sense. Hearing the kind of wariness with which staff spoke about her and it was things like she's an eye gouger, she's dangerous, you have to be really careful. There was such a focus on staff keeping themselves safe in

relation to her. And it just didn't ring true that a person with learning disabilities in their 40s who had lived in this place for 40 years could be that dangerous. So Patsy started investigating. She was curious. She went through years of medical notes and she found that the eye gouging label had arisen from a cut that Kaseba gave to another patient when she was frightened when a fire alarm went off in the ward that was being evacuated. Now Patsy ended up writing a 50 page report and that concluded that Kaseba wasn't dangerous and she shouldn't be in hospital. So a 10 strong team led by a social worker and other health and care professionals were set up by Camden Council to get her out.

Now, it took six years, but in 2022, Kaseeba did finally move into her own home and she has 24-7 care and she is now flourishing. You know, again, talking about the figures, so that kind of gives an idea of how much effort it took, Carolyn, to get this one woman out of that particular situation. What do the hospital trusts say about Kaseeba's story? Well, in order to protect Kaseeba's identity, we can't actually name the NHS Trust which was responsible for her. But we spoke to them and it told us that the care it delivered had never been brought into question and that anyone needing long-term segregation was given their own

living space and their own garden. Now the Trust also said it had tried to start discharging residents from 2010 but it was prevented from doing so by a legal challenge from the families of other patients. And it said subsequently its staff had worked tirelessly to help local authorities provide the necessary support for residents so that they could live in the community. Now we know as we mentioned at the top there are many other autistic people, some also with a learning disability or may have a learning disability that were inappropriately detained. And there are mothers fighting to try and get those children, whether they're minors or grown adults, home.

Absolutely. And the thing is, a lot of these people do have families battling for them because Siba didn't have anyone at all. I spoke to one mum we're calling Beth. Her 17-year-old daughter Amelia, which is not her real name, is autistic. She went from being a school prefect on a Friday to being an inpatient by the Monday. She stopped eating and for the past few years she's been in long-term segregation.

Now, Amelia wanted to let people know what it's like and so she wrote this letter for us, which is read here by her mum. You forget the world and the world forgets you. Reality becomes even more distorted and you forget how to have conversations and what the world is. Loneliness cripples you,

but you don't think you deserve people and you know that the real world doesn't want people like you. You rot alone and the world moves on but you stay the terrified teenager who was first put into long-term segregation but you will never be the same again. The horrors you see and the experience don't just isolate you physically but separate you from humanity in a way you'll never get back. You are so desperate for conversation that you chat to AI and you pretend that they're your friend but you don't have

any friends. And as her mum it's incredibly upsetting to hear that. Yeah I've gone back and read it multiple times and each time it just makes me so upset, it just makes me cry that my beautiful, talented, kind and compassionate child, that this is how she feels. She sees no future, she just wants to die. That's Beth talking about her daughter Amelia. Now the Department of Health and Social Care has described these accounts as shocking and upsetting. It says, it's unacceptable that too many autistic people and those with learning disabilities

are in mental health hospitals, often far from home. It added, under the government's plan for change, it's going to move care from hospitals to the community to bring care closer to where people live. Thanks very much, Carolyn. And listening to all of that is my next guest, Alexis Quinn. Alexis runs the Restraint Reduction Network charity, which campaigns for people to live in the community.

You're very welcome to Woman's Hour. You had an experience, Alexis, as an autistic woman, of being held in hospital like these situations we're talking about. You expected to be in for three days. That was instead three years that you remained there until you literally escaped. What do you remember of the hospital during that time, particularly of segregation, that term we have learned about? Well generally speaking, they're very noisy, chaotic, sensory-driven spaces which aggravate sensitive autistic dispositions, which is why autistic people become so distressed.

With regard to long-term segregation, Baroness Sheila Hollins has called it quite aptly solitary confinement. Often the spaces are no bigger than a parking space. If you can imagine being confined to one of those, sometimes the rooms are windowless. All communication is mediated, so if you need something you need to shout through a window, through a door, or hope that you're heard. You're often observed on CCTV constantly and you don't know if somebody's watching you or they're not, so that can be quite distressing. And for myself, you know, I was often locked, naked, there was no toilet. So it's difficult to convey to listeners, actually, but I think that Amelia's captured it really well. The loneliness

is what gets you. It's the agony for human contact. Of course, it's a biological imperative. agony for human contact. Of course, it's a biological imperative. And I'm just thinking of you in that situation, Alexis, trying to communicate your distress to others. Like, were you heard? No, I mean, to start with, there's a phenomena called isolation panic, which is a human reaction. It's not about learning disability. It's not about autism. It's that banging on the door. It's that screaming, you know, please let me out. It's that panic. It's that elevated heart rate and what happens is that obviously you get tired and so people think oh, you know This is helpful. You know, this is improved because this person is now sitting down like Was being described about Kaseba just laying down, you know, but actually we've just given up. Yeah gosh how sad I

Mentioned there to our listeners that you literally escaped. Tell me what happened. Well, you know, I had to make a quick decision. I was about to be transferred to a more secure facility and without the escape, you know, I would have ended much like Kaseba. The average length of stay is six years.

So I made that quick decision, that momentary decision and I traveled to Dover. But did you just, I'm just thinking you're in the hospital. Hopped over the wall, hopped over the wall and of course more secure facilities have much higher walls. So this one was, I was quite able to. You saw a moment and you took it. I took the moment. Wow and I know went went on to travel a lot but being free what is it like? Well it's I've had a you know an opportunity now to reconnect to reconnect with my family to reconnect with society to

reconnect with education to to work and these basic things that we all take for granted, the ability to pick up the phone, the ability to go into a garden, to have some fresh air, to take your shoes off and feel grass on your feet, it's the small things, it's the small things that matter. Which are of course these huge things, but you are a campaigner now. How many other people do you think are in mental health hospitals held inappropriately, people who are not mentally ill? We know that there's 2,050 people, we know that 200 of those are children, we know that a large proportion of those have no discharge plan, more

than 50%, and we know that many are held in long-term segregation inappropriately for an average of over 400 days in their current provider so that's a long that's over a year. And your understanding for why so many people are detained? Well what we know is that it isn't the legislation that's the issue. The issue is you know our national send crisis, the fact that children are excluded. Special educational needs and disabilities. That's right. In schools. So that's a huge issue.

We know that people don't have that sense of belonging and connection to their communities because of the discrimination, because people can't autistic, people can't access spaces or they can't engage in just the regular communication because of their learning disabilities. And so what happens is that people enter a crisis. So they go on, they start off on a path that is very difficult because their needs not been taken care of at a younger age.

Exactly that needs aren't taken care of. Um, and so the person might enter a crisis, something might happen. So for me, my brother died, you know, um, but you, you know you know you notice with with both Kaseiba and Amelia these issues started in school. So it's about getting that right so that people don't enter that crisis and that doesn't have to be met with immediate action like what are we going to do with this person and so it's much bigger than this legislation. The Department of Health and Social Care has said it is introducing reforms to the Mental Health Act to prevent inappropriate detention, also to enhance accountability among care

providers and ensure that when detention is unavoidable it is as brief as possible. Do you think that will make a difference? I'm really hopeful that this is going to give us the opportunity to make that investment in education and in social care and make sure that people have that access that I've just described. I am concerned because if we remove the ability to detain people in care settings, albeit they're experienced as very abusive, mine certainly was really horrific as has been described on this programme, the only other options you know could be something like you know criminal proceedings or homelessness or suicide which we know is huge for

this population so the figures are one in four autistic people think about or attempt to die by suicide and it's one in ten thousand for the general population. So you know if we're removing this avenue of providing care and support we must make sure that investment is there in social care so that people don't reach crisis. It's not the legislation which is locking people up. What the issue is is the poor community provision. Alexis Quinn and Carolyn Atkinson speaking to Nuala there. And if you have been affected by any of the issues being talked about you can

get links to help and support from the BBC Action Line website and you can hear Kaseeba's full story in File on Four Investigates available now on BBC Sounds. Now in May 2015 at just 20 years, Mari Black was the youngest person for more than a century to become a Member of Parliament. She hadn't quite completed her politics degree at Glasgow University. Elected a further two times, she remained an SNP MP for Paisley and Renfrewshire South until the 2024 election last July, when she stood down. Now a BBC documentary, Mari Black, Being Me Again, follows her last six months in that role, and amongst other things,

looks at what her future could hold in a new career as a stand-up comedian. Mari joined me this week, and I started by asking her what her new life was like on the outside of Parliament. Oh, it's much, much better, much better. Not just from not having to travel every week up and down to London, but yeah being out of that environment has definitely been a good thing. What was that environment?

I think it's something that's talked about a lot in the documentary, you know, it's quite a, I feel that Westminster's quite about a lot in the documentary, you know, it's quite a, I feel that Westminster's quite a toxic place and the kind of cultural norms in there I don't think would be tolerated in many other workplaces or certainly shouldn't be tolerated. So yes, it's kind of strange once you step out of that world and you start to reflect on some things you think, God, that really was bad or that was mad what was happening and so yeah it's all been good. It's a really fascinating documentary and a really great insight into you know when you see someone's public face and we literally get to see

behind what's going on behind it all and we'll get into it because you talk about your own mental health and your ADHD diagnosis but before all of that let's start with how you go from politics to comedy or maybe that's just the obvious connection because you've spoiler alert you've already started the new career you're on stage at the Edinburgh Festival last summer first performance how was that what was more, your maiden speech in Parliament or the stand-up promise? No, probably doing the stand-up I think is scarier, because for a start the room's full,

which makes a big difference. But to be honest, if you look at politics over the last ten years, it kind of is comical in a lot of ways, if you don't laugh you'll cry at it. So how the show came about was I wanted to be able to talk about my experiences and actually give folk a behind the scenes look at what Wes Winsters really like, but to do it in a light hearted way. You know the way I would if I was talking to somebody in the pub about it. And like I say well from that it just kind of developed into a kind of comedy. So it's not a political meeting of any sorts you know or pontificating, I

think it's quite insightful for folk who don't really have any understanding of politics or even those who do, I think it's quite a good behind the scenes look. You say that the stand up comedy's more terrifying, but your maiden speech in parliament was viewed more than 10 million times. Yeah. That must have felt, I mean, how did that feel at the time? I'm still convinced to this day,

it was just all my aunties hitting rewatch, rewatch. So yeah, no, I mean, it was mad at the time. I remember somebody from the media team coming through to me to say, you're trending first in Nigeria. And I was like, what are you talking about? So yeah, it was a kind of baptism of fire into the media landscape. What made you want to stand as an SNP MP at such a young age? Well, truthfully I didn't for a long time. It was because we'd come off the back of the Scottish referendum campaign and of course we'd lost that and after a week

or so what struck me was how determined both myself and other Yes campaigners were to still deliver some kind of change and the more time went on the more people were telling me you should stand for Parliament and I would say don't be stupid I'm 20 that's a ridiculous idea but the more that folk argued through with me I realized I was losing the argument. What were they saying to you? Why were they saying that? Well they were saying well shouldn't Parliament represent all swathes of life you know it should reflect the society it's supposed to. The fact that it's mainly made up of straight white middle-aged men is part of the problem and they were saying, you

know, if you'd articulate, if you understand the issues, if you know the arguments then what's your age got to do with it? And did you want to be a priest when you were young? Yeah, actually, when I was, my granny used to take me to Mass every day and to me like when you're that age and a Catholic a priest is like a rock star you know up there on the stage with a mic. So I just thought that's a really good, you know I felt quite attracted to the role and then of course I discovered that women aren't allowed to be priest. Not for you? How disappointed were you?

Oh it broke my wee heart. Somebody said to me you could be a nun and I was like no I want the real deal. You had a rock star moment it's in the documentary and it's the moment where it's declared on election night that you win. You defeated the former Foreign Secretary Douglas Alexander by almost 6,000 votes. Can you remember what that felt like? Yeah it was, it felt overwhelming but it was also, I was really proud because I knew how much hard work you know other folk campaigners and my family and different local members had made such a difference and to be able to overturn that

big a majority was definitely no small task. And what did you want to change? What was your driving passion? Honestly, I look around me and I see the levels of inequality and general unfairness in life and that's what I want to change. You know, I think that's how we grow as a society. So it was, yeah, I was just looking forward to getting stuck in. So you've got all the support, you're thrown into it, you win, and then you've got it, you're an MP and you're having to come to London and be in Westminster. What were the first few months like? I mean they were mad, you know, you're suddenly stepping into this world unto itself. So for the first few months I am quite proud of myself for not jumping in with two feet.

I actually sat back and wanted to see the lie of the land and what the vibe of the place was. So yeah, it was just overwhelming. You describe Westminster as brutal, archaic, a private club, a boys' club full of middle-class middle-aged men. You can tell I'm a fan. Was it what you expected? Yes, yeah I certainly didn't go in with any illusions that you know it would be an easy experience but what I did discover was I suppose almost like the battle lines were much much more blurred than I would have expected, you know, because you think you're going in there to argue about politics, but suddenly you're

thrown into this world where there's egos, where there's, you know, ulterior motives for things and suddenly you start to realise, oh, I know they're supposed to be a team, but they certainly don't feel like one, you know, and there's factions within factions and then all of a sudden you're understanding politics. It's the politics of politics and that's definitely had a wearing effect. You suffered burnout after a couple of years in parliament and you're advised to get right away from Westminster. What was happening? I mean anybody who's experienced burnout will know that if you continually ignore you know how tired you are mentally eventually your body does it for you and says right now if

you're not gonna rest I'm gonna make his rest so like that I was getting you know stomach aches I was throwing up I was having panic attacks I was all over the place you know I just felt all over the shop. Another big theme of the documentary is that you have ADHD but you were diagnosed with it whilst you were in Parliament. What did getting that diagnosis do for you? Oh it changed my life, definitely changed my life because suddenly all of these symptoms that I was feeling that had an explanation for them and it was almost confirmation that you're not mad, you're not lazy, you're not all of these things that

the world tells you you are. It's just that your brain's wired differently so work with it rather than constantly holding yourself to the standards of other folks brains. So that was a real sort of revolutionary moment where I stopped beating myself up a lot and I didn't realize how much energy I was wasting on doing that. And when you look back at your career in politics, what moment are you most proud of? Oh, I think it's, this is sounding like a cheesy answer but genuinely when I think of the individual people that we were able to help, you know, when we had that moment of being able to give

them the good news, that was the best part of the job. It's a shame that it wasn't as often as I'd like but that's definitely what I'm proud of. Mari Black there and Mari Black being me again is available on iPlayer now. And Mari Black, Politics Isn't for Me will tour Scotland from March 13th to May 20th, including the Glasgow International Comedy Festival, and she'll also be at the Soho Theatre in London from the 10th to the 14th of June. And that's it from me on Monday's Woman's Hour Inside Counterterrorism Policing. It's a new podcast featuring five women working in a range of roles across the UK who have shared

their story. And we'll hear the story of Yunker Otebe who became the first woman to summit Mount Everest in 1975. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. Find what you're built for. What's your unique gifting? Podcaster, Audrey Akande from the Receipts Podcast. Don't let anyone dim your shine. Your voice matters. And nature presenter, Rae Wynn Grant. What have wild animals taught me about parenthood? Almost everything. Dear Daughters stars from the BBC World Service.

Listen now by searching for Dear Daughter, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.