Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: Ukraine Kakhovka Dam, Candi Staton & Christina Rossetti the Carer

Episode Date: June 10, 2023

Facebook has removed an advert for a sanitary towel product because it referenced the words Vagina, Vulva and Clitoris. It's the latest in a long line of period ads that have caused a stir. So what is and isn't appropriate when it comes to period adverts? Chella Quint, the founder of Period Positive, a menstruation education advisor and author and Alice Enders, Director of Research at Enders Analysis discuss. The rescue efforts are continuing in Ukraine after Tuesday's breach of the Kakhovka dam. Thirty communities along the Dnipro river have been flooded according to officials. Now the Red Cross has raised concerns that land-mines have been dislodged in the flooding. Kate Zhuzha is from Nova Kakhovka where the dam has collapsed and is the Founder of NGO Union of Help to Kherson in touch with people in the flooded areas. She tells us about the latest reports.Last month we looked at the experience of caring with authors Emily Kenway and Lynne Tillman. So many of you got in touch including academic Dinah Roe, a Reader in nineteenth-century literature, who with poet Sarah Hesketh, managing editor of Modern Poetry In Translation have been running a series of free online workshops, inspired by Christina Rossetti's writing, designed specifically for people with caring responsibilities. Dinah and Sarah discuss the power of writing poetry.Four-time Grammy award nominated singer Candi Staton has moved between several musical genres during of the course of her celebrated career – from soul, R&B, gospel and disco. She discusses her iconic tracks such as the multi-platinum “You Got the Love” and the singalong anthem “Young Hearts Run Free”. It has recently been remixed by UK producer Benji La Vida and has had more than 2.4 million streams on Spotify alone, and there are 60,000 TikTok reels of people doing a dance challenge to the song No single person can take credit for the huge boom in women’s football but if anyone can it’s the woman who placed second on the Woman’s Hour Power List, Baroness Sue Campbell. The Director of Women’s Football at the FA tells us about the Lionesses legacy, the upcoming World Cup and the future of the Women’s Super League. Since his diagnosis in 2019, rugby league star Rob Burrow has been battling Motor Neurone Disease, with wife Lindsey by his side. Lindsay tells us about her first marathon and has raised over £100,000 towards a specialist Motor Neurone Disease Centre to be built in his name. A new ITV documentary, Lindsey and Rob: Living with MND, follows Lindsey as she navigates marathon training alongside working and family life, whilst also exploring the wider impact of this disease. Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Parti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and good afternoon. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, the highlights from the week so you don't feel like you've missed out. Coming up on the programme, we'll discuss the rescue efforts continuing in Ukraine after Tuesday's breach of the Kharkovka Dam with an NGO in communication with people in that area. Number two in the Women's Hour Power List is Baroness Sue Campbell. She tells us about her disruptive leadership style and the continuing success of

women's football since last year's Euros. It was just a happy, happy family atmosphere and people really were captivated by it. And you saw last week record crowds at the Women's FA Cup. People are now really interested in the game, enjoying watching it and loving that atmosphere that they get when they go along. Plus, poet Sarah Hesketh on the joy of writing poetry and running workshops for people with caring responsibilities. This is the most rewarding teaching I have done in nearly 20 years of teaching and that is because

poetry is the jumping off point but the poetry facilitates the community, the ability to voice something that you can't voice very easily. Anne will have music and chat from the four-time Grammy Award nominated singer Candy Staten. Facebook has removed an advert for a sanitary towel product because it referenced the words vagina, vulva and clitoris. The ad begins by saying the vagina is one of the most censored words on social media. That's why we're on a mission to reclaim all of those words that you just can't say. The company, Bodyform, claimed it was sent an automated notification by Facebook that read, ads must not promote the sale or use of adult

products or services. We've approached Facebook for a response. It's the latest in a long line of period ads that have caused a stir. In Ireland, a Tampax ad showing how to use a tampon was banned and a television advert featuring a bloody sanitary towel was the most complained about advert of 2022, receiving over 800 complaints. So what is and isn't appropriate when it comes to period adverts? I spoke to Chela Quint, the founder of Period Positive, which aims to transform the way we as a society address periods. She's also a teacher and author. And also to Alice Enders. Alice is Director of Research at Enders Analysis,

which follows TV and advertising trends. Was Chella surprised by this advert being taken down by some platforms? Well, I'm in two minds about this. We know that social media has arbitrary rules around what is safe and what isn't. But I had thought that we were learning about this and growing more. I think that the advertising campaigns are now doing what we want. We're sort of saying to be more proactive, be more inclusive, you know, don't use language of shame and stigma and secrecy. And that's starting to happen. But the companies that sort of are the portals for us to receive this information, you know, like TV, Facebook, other forms of social

media, they haven't kept up. There's what I'm starting to call institutional menstrual shame. At the organizational level, people don't know what they're doing yet. And they aren't exploring how they could do it better. So advertisers are trying, social media platforms are not quite there yet. I'd like to get Alice's response to that. I just want to point out there's a big difference between TV and social media. In the UK, all ads are vetted before they appear on TV. On social media, they use filters. It's a platform. There are thousands, hundreds of thousands of ads that are uploaded every day. And the default is to have a filter that just says, if there's this word,

that word, and so on, it's an adult sex product. And that can't be served on Facebook because, of course, Facebook's point of entry is 13-year-olds. So I think the issue is, as you said, a longstanding one. There is a way to, for example, appeal the ad rejection, but we have heard an awful lot about this over the years. And to be honest, I mean, I think that the MEDIS policy, I think, is quite sound. We, I don't think, want to have adult sex products, inter alia, marketed to people that are not adults. So it's, in essence, a child protection thing. But at the same time, I think what Cello says is quite right in the sense that, you know, there's an automaticity in the filters because, again, you know, there's no way Meta can actually vet each one of the ads that's being served on the platform.

So the default is to be safe and to just turn it off. Alice, is that default good enough? This idea of a generic blanket ban against such terms? And I totally understand the concern about child protection. But this as a default position, how do platforms work around this? They use filters. And I mean, they use lots of filters. You know, for example, knives can't be marketed on Facebook either. I don't think Met be seen as being a bad citizen in a society where we know that children should be protected from online harms. But many women will see this as censorship. Chella, you've been keeping an eye on the evolution of period adverts,

for example, over the past few years. How far have we come? I think it's a big change. Six years ago, adverts were still using blue liquid. Now they're trying to get people to say vagina and vulva and clitoris, even pointing out the difference between vagina and vulva. That's something that, you know, we've been trying to encourage schools to make clearer to young people for years.

Like Period Positive is working on a curriculum around menstrual literacy, though. And I think the issue is companies like Meta have algorithms and filters, but there are people that program those. And those people don't have good enough menstrual literacy. The AI that might be used to manage some of this can be taught menstrual literacy, media literacy to notice the difference between red liquid and blue liquid and know, you know, the body literacy of what that means. And also, you know, just a corporate culture. Like sometimes I advise companies on how to make their corporate culture more period friendly and more menstrually literate, because that means all of their staff, whether they menstruate or not, can make decisions that benefit or, you know, accommodate people who

do. And the rationale that this is all under safeguarding falls down when a company or an algorithm or an individual programming that filter doesn't make the difference. It's not even really a nuanced difference between the safety and importance of a young person understanding what periods are, how their bodies work before puberty and beyond. So I would say, you know, let's catch up, but I'm happy to do the work and there are plenty of other people here who will as well. It's media literacy that solves this problem, but adverts have noticed that this is what we want. We've, you know, we've complained, we've protested, we've used've used you know funny art projects and you

know i used to do a fanzine about it before i brought it into schools it's really crucial that we take individual and corporate responsibility for this you know everybody had a room that was a womb i always say we all used to live inside a uterus so whatever your gender whether you're not whatever your role your yeah your first flat was like you know it's just designed in millennial pink beautiful you might have had succulent plants you might have had a poster from Athena doesn't matter how old you are now but every single person in the world came from a uterus so we all have the right to understand how they work and the responsibility to you know to to know how

that impacts people. On that individual versus corporate responsibility, Alice, advertisers themselves, have you seen a change, for example, in the language being used in women's products in particular? Well, I think it's one of the most amazing things that has happened in the last decade, I would say in the last decade. What I've seen a lot, and I've really sort of embraced this myself, is not so much, you know, it's the issue of the menopause. You know, I think as women have become empowered and have joined the workforce, their concerns have actually been demystified. Obviously, most women go through the menopause

at a certain time. Products that are directed at alleviating the symptoms, you know, herbal remedies, for example, are now being routinely advertised. And obviously magazines are big, you know, women's magazines are a big outlet for that kind of advertising. But, you know, there's also TV. And I think that's incredibly positive. I was talking there to Alice Enders and Chela Quint. On to the rescue efforts continuing in Ukraine after Tuesday's breach of the Kharkovga Dam. Many communities along the Dnipro River have been flooded. And many of you will have seen those images of women, elderly and children being carried on the backs of rescue workers, some waiting on rooftops, others waiting in trees and many are in

tears. And now the Red Cross have raised concerns that landmines have been dislodged in the flooding. Kate Juzia is from Nowakowka, where the dam has collapsed, and is the founder of the NGO Union of Help to Kherson. She's in touch with people in the flooded areas. I started off by asking her if the water levels are stabilising. As far as we know, the water levels have not been stabilising yesterday, even though we were hoping they will. So the water would keep rising and move here from people on the ground, about families being trapped on roofs and rooftops and trees, and begging in many telegram chats that the water keeps rising and they need to be rescued. So we have seen the situation really worsen by an hour. It's different on the two sides of the river. So the liberated

side, which is under Ukrainian control, is seeing mass evacuation missions. Ukrainian government has launched a lot of evacuation and National Guard to help take people off. On the occupied side, where I am from myself, we are hearing horrible reports of people dying in those houses and those villages because the occupants are not launching evacuation missions. And so what we are seeing is it is absolutely desperate. And us, as people from the region, we're just pleading for support of the International Committee of Red Cross to send international rescue missions to the occupied territory to save those people's lives.

Kate, we've seen images of women, elderly and children. They're being carried on the backs of rescue workers. They're waiting on rooftops, like I said. And many, it's important to remember, they'll be going about their day-to-day lives without the men in their lives, because many of them will have been called to the to the front line can you explain to us the challenges that they are facing so for for women on the liberated side and families many many men

are conscripted and are fighting in the army so this means that women are essentially the household a key person and families and elderly and children are relying on them. So at the moment, having their homes flooded is just really devastating. They have no one to help them evacuate because evacuation is really difficult. It's not even as easy as just having an inflatable boat because the current is really, really strong. So we are hearing reports of when people just try to get into a inflatable boat, they're being carried away by the current. So they have to be taken by motorboats, they have to be taken by rescuers. So women are essentially just at the hands there of the National Guard of Ukraine and the rescue missions. So they're just waiting, essentially?

They are just waiting. And this is the most heartbreaking part, because everyone has access to internet. While it is breaking on and off, people do have access to Telegram chats. And if you scroll through many, many of these, you see people just begging for aid. People are sending their coordinates. They're saying how many people there are. I've seen messages yesterday of women being like, we have two children. One is going into a panic mode. Someone needs to take us. Here's our coordinates. And there's a lot of messages like this. They come every minute. And amongst them pregnant women as well, as I understand it. Absolutely. Absolutely.

There are pregnant women that are on roofs and that are just waiting to be rescued. And it's just really horrendous because the demand for rescue is huge. Like I am serious when I say they literally come like every second I'm seeing more messages come up. So it is really scary. Yesterday we were so desperate. We were even exploring options of could we get some sort of commercial drones and send inflatable life jackets on them or send water bottles because people are just trapped there. And of course, the rescue missions can't get everywhere. And here I'm talking about the Liberated Bank. On the Occupied Bank, it's the same situation, but there's no rescue missions,

which is absolutely heartbreaking. Those people have no one to rely on. No government is taking care of them. And so here I am just really hoping that the international community and the Red Cross can mobilize and negotiate to send rescue missions for those civilians. You also mentioned water there. So very vital. And hundreds of thousands of people have been left without drinking water. You mentioned the drones there. But what have people been telling you about access to those basic needs we are not even talking about them right now to be honest because everyone is so focused on just getting out and getting evacuated many of us have been messaging our friends and family who are in complete chaos and in shock and in panic telling them don't drink the water from the tap don't drink any water do not take anything that is naturally produced, just take everything bottled.

And at the moment, people are just in chaos, getting evacuated. So the drinking problem, the drinking water problem will be a really significant one. So our NGO is now starting to see where can we source those tablets for cleaning water, as well as sourcing pumps to pump out the water once it stops in flowing. One question I wanted to ask you was about the future and going forward, because as I understand it, with many of the men leaving to fight in the army on the front line, women have been left to tow the land, to manage the agriculture. And you talk about the devastation that this is going to cause going forward.

And this is inevitably going to impact women more than men because they are being left to manage the land. Yeah, that is true. In all honesty, this is like the most heartbreaking part for us because we understand that this is years and years of effect. We are going to lose that land. People are not going to have food supplies. This used to be the most agricultural and most producing region of Ukraine.

So I think for women that are staying there, there is no other way than leaving their home region and their home cities, because there is simply not going to be anything there if we're not going to have the Kahovca Dam working, which is not preparable. At the start of the war, we heard stories of the elderly just not wanting to leave. They were determined that we are not going to go anywhere. And now we're seeing those images and the ones that are staying with me are those of the elderly with their walking sticks, elderly women in tears. This is them being forced to leave because of this disaster.

And that opens up a whole different dimension of emotions for the elderly who have spent all their lives in these homes. Yeah, elderly have been the most reluctant to leave. We've been conducting evacuations since April of last year and it has been really difficult. Oftentimes the relatives of an elderly would be insistent to evacuate the person but the person would just refuse. I have my very good friend grandma staying in Novokahovka and telling yesterday over the

phone that she will continue staying and when my friend was saying that the water might keep rising what is she going to do? My grandmother, I've luckily managed to convince and evacuate almost by force, quite literally. But my friend's grandmother is staying in Novokahovka and her excuse to staying is she's saying if the water will reach her house, she will just go to the fourth floor of this apartment block and stay with her neighbors.

So they're really not willing to leave. And I understand why. It's because their entire life is in that place. And they just cannot see and they don't have the power to go through getting out of there, not having housing, having to search for someone to help them. So it is a quite desperate position for the elderly in southern Ukraine. Kate, I must ask you, you talk about your loved ones back home. This is your hometown. So not only is your country in the midst of a war, now your specific hometown has been targeted by this damn disaster.

How are you? I don't know. I think I'm not really good. I haven't yet had the time to process. It just happened and I've got mobilised to help the people, but I try to not let the thoughts creeple in because I think that will just really break me. It will be a journey to get through this. But on the very first morning when I woke up and I saw it, it really felt like our roots are being washed away, like our entire childhood is being taken by that water. And it is really heartbreaking because the dam and the hydroelectric station,

this is history of almost everyone in the town. My grandparents have all been brought into Novak to build the hydroelectric station. Not all of them are alive now, but I understand this is literally our family history that has been destroyed and our town is being washed away. So it is really heartbreaking. I don't know how we're all going to get through it. Insight there from Kate Jujo. Last month, we looked at the experience of caring with authors Emily Kenway and Lynn Tillman. So many of you got in touch, including academic Dinah Rowe,

a reader in 19th century literature, who, with poet Sarah Hesketh, managing editor of Modern Poetry and Translation, have been running a series of free online workshops inspired by Christina Rossetti's writing, designed specifically for people with caring responsibilities. Dinah Rose started off by explaining how Christina Rossetti was a carer herself. She was a young carer at about the age of 14. Her father had a mental and physical breakdown. The rest of the

family went out to work and she stayed home to care for him. And then much later in her life, in her 50s, she was a carer for her mother and two aunts, all three of whom were in their 80s and who had varying degrees of severe health problems. And how did we not know this? I mean, I think people maybe know her best for her poem in the bleak midwinter, usually sung, you know, in the bleak midwinter. But you see that as a poem about care. I'm wondering how you figured out what the rest of her life was about.

Well, I think I worked out that she was a carer because like many carers today, her work was invisible. You know, she didn't kind of talk about it. She didn't go on about it. You know, this was a very private, invisible thing. And, you know, one of the things I wonder is how much support she had, which I think is very little. But I worked out that she was a carer because I'm doing a complete edition of her poems and I did a chronology of her life. And I thought, ah, okay, so this, you know, her work changed at

one point. And I thought, why has it changed? Why has she changed form and started writing more short form prose? And then I thought, oh, this must have to do with the caring. So she started writing this reading diary called Time Flies. And she would write one entry per day. Like a blog. Yes. And I say that because one of our listeners got in touch earlier talking about that that's what they do. They blog to try and alleviate, I suppose, some of that pressure that you're feeling from caring. And blogging, you know, or writing a reading diary, as Christina Rossetti did, is kind to your time. You can fit it in between things. So she inspired these workshops. You've already done three, I know. You plan to do more. Sarah,

tell me about your role. So I came on board, I guess, as the workshop leader. So the workshops were kind of Dinah's conception. She said if Rosetti could write role is to put those teaching materials together and then to actually lead the workshops themselves. And so the kind of writing and reading sessions that we do. I want to bring one of the poems to our listeners. This is by Catherine Graham. It's called Pantomime. If I were brave, I'd peel them off. But she loves them. Self-adhesive stickers with pink rose patterns she pressed onto the tiles two years ago. She likes to fix the curled up corners as she sits on the shower stool. She's my mum when she asks if I'm okay as shampoo splashes my eye. I could cry and get away with it, pretend it was just the silly shampoo. Clouds of baby talc fill the cubicle. My fault, I forgot to keep it out of reach. White dust settles on our hair and eyelashes as another sticker breaks free of the tiles. Mom emerges from the haze like the Snow Queen in our every morning pantomime.

I take the liberty of laughing. And you've got to laugh. I think that will resonate with so many people that are carers. It's beautiful. Catherine Graham, who wrote it, in case she's listening. But, you know, writing poetry, that's a big ask. Are people coming as experienced writers? It's a real mixture. We've had some people who have done some kind of writing or poetry writing before or sort of previous to when they were a carer or they might just be a keen reader of poetry. But we've also had some people who have never done any writing before. And what's attracted them to the group is not necessarily the writing, but the idea that they can spend time with other carers. And I think that is as important as the writing as a motivation for people getting involved. And Dana, you know, was that pantomime? Is that quite typical? Are people always writing about that experience of

directly caring? Well, it depends. I mean, some of the best poetry exercises actually come through kind of indirection. So I think what poetry does is create a safe space to talk about things that you would be afraid to talk about in prose or sort of directly. So, you know, an exercise we use is you write from the perspective of an object that you use in caring and that liberates people. I thought the talcum powder there, I mean that anybody who's a carer will know that that is, what would I say,

a prerequisite maybe in some aspects. Some more comments that are coming in. I sing each week in a choir that is formed of carers and former carers. The breath control

needed to sing really helps with the anxiety. We support each other and I really enjoy getting out of the house. Another, when caring for my 93-year-old disabled mother, I managed to squeeze in my artwork, painting and printmaking

by working at it each morning for an hour or two before seeing to my mum's needs. That discipline made me focus. I was alert and fresh to it and it was a peaceful, satisfying start to each day. I achieved a lot and felt better for it. And it's interesting, Donna, how does it feel to do this work, to run these workshops?

It feels amazing. It is easily my favourite thing I've ever done. And why is that? Because it shows you that, as Sarah said in one of the workshops, that poetry can actually do things, can really help people. So it's not just this, you know, academic thing. It's a real thing. Yeah, I think this is the most

rewarding teaching i have done in nearly 20 years of teaching and that is because poetry is the jumping off point but the poetry facilitates the community the the ability to voice something that you can't voice very easily sarah hesketh and din Rowe there still to come on the programme Lindsay Burrow on family life and dealing with the diagnosis of her husband Rob's MND and number two on the Woman's Hour Power List, Baroness Sue Campbell and if you missed Friday's programme

I spoke to Sue Barker about her tennis career, her three decades presenting Wimbledon and her time as quiz master on A Question of Sport you can find that full interview on BBC Sounds by searching for Women's Hour on the 9th of June. Four-time Grammy Award nominated singer Candy Staten has moved between several musical genres during the course of her celebrated career from soul, R&B, gospel and disco. She came into the Women's Hour studio

on Tuesday to discuss with Nuala the iconic tracks such as the multi-platinum You Got the Love and the anthem Young Hearts Run Free. The latter has recently been remixed by UK producer Benji La Vida and has had more than 2.4 million streams on Spotify alone and there are 60,000 TikTok reels of people doing a dance challenge to that song. David Crawford was my producer. And the strangest thing happened during the session. We had just both signed with Warner Brothers, and they were looking for a producer. And I had known David Crawford for many years,

and we always wanted to get together and do, but I was always with other labels. So we couldn't do it. And this was the point in time I was in L.A., California, Los Angeles, and he was there and he was looking for an artist and I was looking for a producer.

And do you know he fasted for 40 days for this song? What do you mean? Fasted, no food, water and just juices for 40 days. And he told me, he said, I'm going to write your song that's going to last forever. And I, at the moment, I didn't know what he meant. I said, David, my goodness. Okay, well, whatever.

And when I saw him, I told him my story about the abuse. And I was with someone at the time that I couldn't get away from. And he was threatening me and my family and my children. And I would sit there and I would tell him about it over lunch. And I realized he was writing something down. And he was actually writing Young Hearts Run Free. And he got in the studio and he finished it. And I put it out while I sung it. He came in the studio in the room where I was, you know, the vocal booth, we call it.

And he said, I'm finished, and I'm going to run it down one time for you, and maybe you can catch on. But it was so mean. It didn't take much to catch on because I was just singing my story in three minutes. And I walked in the studio, and he sung it down and let me know how it went. And it was like a natural, you know, and I sung it. I said, OK, just let it roll. And I sung the song once.

He said, you can come in now. I got what I want. I said, but I was just practicing. He said, no, that wasn't a practice. He said, that was you. And that was from your heart. Now you can do it again if you want to, but I'm using the first. And so that's how that song was birthed.

How amazing. Isn't that amazing? I'll never listen to the song in the same way again. And usually they listen. I read something that said, when you're younger, you listen to the beat. When you get older, you listen to the lyrics. And that's what's happening now with our young people. The young generation are listening to the lyrics and it's telling their stories.

And that's why I think it went viral. That's amazing. You started out performing gospel at the age of five. Yes, ma'am. And by 12, then touring with the Jewel Gospel Trio. What do you remember of that time? I mean, when I was working out, this was a time of segregation. I can't imagine.

It was horrible, you know, doing those days. That was in the 50s. And segregation, it was really bad, especially in the South. I can imagine. And so what happened, we used to travel together. I would travel with Sam Cooke. He was with the Soulsters, with Lou Rawls. He was with the Pilgrim Travelers.

I was traveling with staple singers and Ruth Franklin and Mahalia Jackson. And we would all ride in caravans. We all had cars following each other going through the South. And we had safe houses. We couldn't stay in the, like, they didn't have a holiday inn for us. They didn't have any nice places for us. So we had safe houses. And we would all make it to Shreveport, or we'd make it to Texas, or we'd make it somewhere that we could all stay in the same house that they had prepared for us. Because if you were caught alone, you don't know what might happen to you. So we all just stayed together and we got to know each other like family.

I knew Sam so well. We had many, many, many conversations. Lou Rawls and, oh my goodness, the Staples singles, Mavis and I were just like twin sisters. We would run around playing and, you know, like kids do. But it was just an amazing time of my life. Yeah, what a slice of history, Candy. You've recorded 30 albums. You spent many years focusing on...

And I'm working on the next one. Yes, I know. You are going for it and continue to go for it. This was really, I suppose with the early years, we're talking about gospel music as well. But with your sister, you've recorded, you've talked about a new album, a new version

of Peace in the Valley. She was one of the Jewel Trio. Jewel Trio as well. It was Naomi, Maggie and myself. We were the jewel trio. But coming up to today, you have recorded a new version of Peace in the Valley. That was a song that Elvis used to sing.

And then the album is called Back to My Roots. But why did you choose this song? I don't know. I've always loved it. We used to sing it when my mom was alive. I was born in Alabama. We had no music.

We'd sit on our porch at night, and she would read us the Bible. And we would sing songs like that. We could get radio, you know, a little bit of radio, not much. So we learned that song. And we'd sit there, and my mother would sing with us. And we'd sing peace in the valley and so at the roots album we decided to go back and get all of our as many root songs i did some uh i've written several songs on the album myself but it sounded like you know the original gospel music and that's what we were we're headed for the original gospel music. And that's what we were headed for, the original gospel sound.

Yeah, you can very much feel it. Yeah, the rhythm of it. Music has changed. Gospel music especially has changed so much. When I was in gospel music, there were no musicians. They didn't believe. It was very religious. And they only believed in

a keyboard player or a guitar player. And the quartet singers would slap their hips. They had a bass. It was so funny. The bass would be the mouth. They had a bass

person with a boom, boom, boom. And they would be slapping their heels. That was your percussion then on your leg. Yeah. Oh, I'm going home. I'm going home. You know, that kind of stuff. That's the roots.

Wow. So we wanted to kind of get a little bit of that in there. And I pray that people can, the young people especially, that they don't know anything about that type of music. But you're going to bring them to it. I'm going to bring it back. I want to turn to You Got the Love. And for our listeners,

originally released in 1986, remixed, re-released 91, 97, 2006, number two in the UK dance singles chart, number one in the UK club chart. Covered by so many. Can you count them all? I can't. I do remember Florence and the Machine. That continue. I hear it often as well.

Such wonderful, uplifting lyrics. And we all go through it. Sometimes we do feel like throwing our hands up in the air. But we know we can count on God. And that's what the song is all about. Cause he is always there. He's never going to leave us and he'll never forsake us. When I went through two years of, of, of, I had breast cancer and I, um, I went through when that song really hit me, I was just singing it before, you know, just singing it because I liked it.

But when I would go down the hallway for chemo, I would throw my hands up in the air and say, sometimes I feel like throwing my hands up in the air. I know I can count on you. Sometimes I feel like saying, Lord, I just don't care, but you got the love I need to see me through. And he saw me through every session. And I'm here today because I threw my hands in the air and I counted on God and he saw me through. I'm cancer free. Candy Staten will be at the Kite Festival in Oxfordshire today and the Glastonbury and Love Supreme Festivals later in the summer.

And Woman's Hour will be broadcasting from Glastonbury for the first time on Friday the 23rd of June as Anita Rani brings listeners the latest from the festival. The huge boost we've seen over the last year in women's football can't be put down to one person. Not even Chloe Kelly,

whose goal in extra time at last summer's Euros and the iconic sports bra moment won England their first major trophy since 1966. The success we've seen, whether it be sell-out crowds, increased TV audiences or record transfer fees, is testament to the work of many people, many women over the years. Baroness Sue Campbell is one of those women. Her dedication and drive has been unflinching over a 50-year career in the world of sport. It's resulted in an MBE, a CBE, a Damehood and Peerage and also now number two on our Women's Hour Power List.

Baroness Sue Campbell is the Director of Women's Football at the FA where she's been for the last seven years. During her tenure, the number of women and girls playing football has doubled and the excitement for the game is reaching fever pitch as we finish a record-breaking Women's Super League season and look ahead to the Women's World Cup. She talked to Nuala on Monday and talked about her leadership style, which she describes as disruptive. It means driving change.

You know, every organisation I've gone into, the National Coaching Foundation, Youth Sport Trust, UK Sport and then the FA, there was a need to drive really significant change in the ambition, in the people that worked in the women's game, football or really changing the aspiration of our Olympiclympic and paralympic programs at uk sport changing the vision of what physical education school sport could be like at the youth sport trust and building a whole new framework of what coaching and coach development meant across every sport in the country and to do that which means you've got to challenge the status quo. You've got to challenge what's there. You've got to be willing to, you know, take the setbacks, bounce back. It means you are disruptive. It doesn't always make you popular. But as long as you're disrupting in order to drive something better,

to create better change, then disruption is very important, I think. So I think it's fair to say there has been a disruption, a very positive disruption when it comes to women's football over the past few years as well. It has turned around, I suppose, particularly their win last summer at the Euros that I mentioned. You talked about it being a moment of great joy, but a moment of great opportunity. Almost a year on, how do you think it looks?

You know, we're going into the World Cup. How do you feel about it? Whether the potential was really harnessed? We often talk about legacy and I think really to embed legacy, you've got to start way before that special moment because when youngsters are inspired and or oldsters are inspired to want to play the game game those opportunities have to be there so our legacy program started two years ahead of the euros where we were building local

infrastructure local opportunities whether it was older women who wanted to try football for the first time walking football soccer size or whether it was making sure that that youngster who suddenly looked and wanted to pull on that England shirt had a place to go and play. So we did a lot of work with the host cities. There were a lot of people involved, local authorities, local clubs, my own colleagues who worked tirelessly to make sure that everything was put in place. So I think in participation terms, we've captured that moment really well and a lot more youngsters involved now at grassroots and beginning to come through on our talent pathway. And in terms of the fans, I think the fans just loved it.

And they came to the stadiums, whether it was England or other countries, and you could see how it was like a big party. I think Gabby Logan said at one point it was like the best nightclub she'd ever been to. It was just a happy, happy family atmosphere and people really were captivated by it and you saw last week record crowds at the Women's FA Cup record crowd at the actual Euro final, sold all our tickets for our friendly game there against Brazil

people are now really interested in the game enjoying watching it and loving that atmosphere that they get when they go along But with the men's game people could argue that the club with the most money does the best. And a fellow powerlister is Maggie Murphy. She's CEO of

Lewis FC, a fan-owned club, which was the first in the world to pay their men and women players equally. I know you know that, but just for my listeners. And Maggie spoke to Anita in April and said her team can't keep up with the big clubs when it comes to funding. So will clubs like Lewis FC disappear as the game grows

and perhaps increasingly depending on the men's game to subsidise in a way? Yeah, well, I think that has been a model, you know, that the Premier League clubs have, as you quite rightly say, subsidised the investment in the women's game. And we're very grateful for that. They've made a massive contribution to the growth of the game. But as we start to increase both broadcast revenue, commercial revenue, attendances,

looking at how we distribute those revenues is going to be very important because people like Maggie have done a remarkable job with her club and we don't want those clubs to no longer have a future in this game. However, if you take clubs, and if I just take Angel City in America that doesn't have a Premier League parent, if you like, they are generating, they've generated this year millions and millions from investors. So I think as the game grows, there'll be other sources of investment other than our, you know, very generous Premier League colleagues. There will be other sources of investment. And we need to take very responsibly the distribution of income to make sure that the whole of the women's game benefits, not just a few people. And I think that's going to be really, really important and something,

in fairness to the CEO working group, that they've already acknowledged and we're already starting to talk about. Yeah, so exciting, but a lot of concerns, I think I can hear. Popping back to the World Cup for a moment. What do you think about when players should be released ahead of the World Cup? Serena Weichmann would like players sooner, but clubs are reluctant to release the players in time to begin a training camp, which is June 19th. So we're just around the corner. Yes.

I mean, we're still working with the clubs to find a training camp which is June 19th so we're just around the corner yes um I mean we're still working with the clubs to find a resolution to this Serena um followed the same pattern she did for the Euros which was she went and met the clubs in December January of this year to talk about her plans her preparation plans which if you knew Serena, you would know are meticulous, detailed, based on good science, based on great thinking, looking at how we build up to that moment when they step onto that pitch for that first competitive game. In the interim, between that conversation and now, FIFA and ECA, FIFA, the International Federation, and ECA, the European Clubs Association, met and came up with a different date, which was the 23rd.

Serena had based her whole plan on the 19th. And we're in the business of trying to now resolve that between us. Clearly, the players are on contract to their clubs. And it's really important that we respect that. But equally, we have to respect that Serena, in my view, is the best coach in the world in the women's game. She's already won two European Championships and taken a team to the final of the World Cup. I think we have to respect what she wants. So I am busy trying to find the solution to this

and working closely with the clubs and obviously with Serena. So interesting. We'll have to have you back to talk more in more detail about pay. Do you think the women will ever match the men's pay? If you were to give me a number of years, what would it be?

No, I don't know that we need to start there. That's kind of it's like comparing two very different businesses okay the women's business model will be different and of course women should be paid well and should be paid the fair and going rate for what they do in women's football but do we want to get to a place where the salaries take the players so far away from the fan that the game becomes top heavy in that sense. I think these players that we're working with want to be paid fairly, they want to be paid well, but they also have a real commitment to the whole game

and to the interests of the whole game. Baroness Sue Campbell there. Next, the experience of one family that has captured the hearts of so many. Since his diagnosis in 2019, rugby league star Rob Burrow has been battling motor neuron disease with his wife Lindsay by his side. Last month, she took part in her first marathon, the Rob Burrow Lees Marathon, and she's raised over £100,000 towards a new specialist motor neurone disease centre to be built in her husband's name. You may have seen that memorable image of Rob being carried across the finishing line by his friend and former team-mate Kevin

Sinfield. A new ITV documentary, Lindsay and Rob, Living with MND, follows Lindsay as she fits in marathon training with working and family life whilst exploring the wider impact of this disease. She told me why she wanted to make this documentary. You know, from when Rob was diagnosed, he wanted to show the effects of the disease and the effects not that it just has on the person that has the disease, but also the impact it has on the family and the carers. and Rob wanted to use his platform to go out and tell his story to help you know it might be the postman or the bricklayer or somebody that doesn't have that voice and when Rob was diagnosed back in December 2019 we were told that Rob would have maybe a year to two years to live

and there were no effective treatments. There were no cure. And you feel quite frustrated. You feel quite angry. And you ask those questions of, well, why isn't the treatments, why isn't there a cure? And on the back of the support that we've had from the public and the rugby league community,

we just wanted to sort of raise that awareness to try and help other families, you know, today and in the future that might be diagnosed with MND and I think Rob sort of made it his mission to to kind of be that voice along with you know the likes of the great late Doddy Weir and Stephen Darby and now Ed Slater that you know for that whole MND community I think it's so important to raise that awareness and and give people hope. I know that like you say this was Rob's goal to raise awareness but obviously that includes you you at times being your most vulnerable not just you but your family as well this must have been hard at times. Yeah it was you know I think I'm not particularly somebody that likes the limelight I don't sort of crave the attention and we're quite a private family

in many ways so I think to kind of go go public and open your doors and especially, you know, certainly in Rob's case, when he's at a time when he's most vulnerable, but as a wife, you just want to kind of support Rob. And that was his kind of goal, his mission to raise that awareness and to kind of support Rob and do whatever I can to do him a little bit to help. You say you're a little bit to help, but let's put this into context lindsey you are a mom of three little lively children you are still working as a physiotherapist you're a full-time carer you're training for marathons first of all where do you get the energy i imagine there are not enough hours

in the day yeah it certainly does feel like that some days you know um life is busy and and sometimes you do feel like you're on a conveyor belt a roller coaster but um you know I think you look at what Rob's going through and you you just want to make him proud and you you do generally we just want to do you a little bit to help and as I say the outpouring of love and support that we've we've had since going public and sharing our story has been really humbling and really touching. And we've had so many people that have come and said, you know, they don't have to explain what MND is now because people have a better understanding. People are more aware of the disease process. And you say we because it's very much involved your children as well.

Can I ask how you all are? Yeah, we're really good. Thank you. The children keep us busy. There's never a dull moment in the borough house. But I think in many ways my coping strategy is just to keep going, to keep busy, just take each day as it comes and just live life to the fullest. I think whatever situation that you're in, it's kind of looking at the positive

and living in the now and just making the most of life because none of us know what's around the corner. You know, we never imagined when Rob retired that this would be the path that we would end up on. So you never know what life's going to throw at you. But, you know, we keep smiling and we keep making those memories and we're just grateful for, you know, every day that Rob's with us and the time that we get to spend as a family. If keeping busy is what keeps you going, I mean, is it marathon training that lets you let off steam and gives you some time to yourself? What is it that keeps you going as an individual besides being busy, those moments for yourself? Do you have any?

Do you know, I think as long as I've said this from the beginning, it's not about me. And as a wife and as a mum, you just want to make sure that Robin and the children are happy. And if they're happy, then I'm happy. And I do enjoy that. I've always enjoyed keeping fit. Not that I'm a good runner in any form or shape, but just having that headspace of being able to go out and, you know, just have that hour to yourself. You know, that's I think for my own sort of well-being, it's quite nice to have that hour to yourself is you know that that's I think for my own sort of well-being it's quite nice to have that and I'm so fortunate that I'm able to do that because we've got it's a team effort you know my parents Rob's parents they all help with Rob's care and with helping with the children so without their help I wouldn't be able to do what I do so I'm it's you know it's a team

effort and I'm really grateful and that there are some people that won't have that and I'm very fortunate that I'm able to go to work and do all the things that that I do and you know it's a team effort and I'm really grateful and that there are some people that won't have that and I'm very fortunate that I'm able to go to work and do all the things that that I do and you know to help Rob and do my little bit of you know fundraising and raising awareness as well. Let's talk about that marathon this was your first marathon you did have an injury how was it? Do you know what it was brilliant I absolutely loved every minute of it just the crowd and the support you know we saw the very best of leads turn out to support that marathon and for me personally running through and seeing so many people with you know Rob or number seven on the back and the support was just incredible um I think I spent the first three miles just thanking people

I got to a point where you know my mouth was really dry and I thought I'm not going to make it to 26 miles if I carry on. And then there was that moment at the very end when Rob was carried over the finish line by his friend, Kevin. How was that moment for you? Such a special moment. I hadn't finished the race at that point. So I saw an image after the run in the tunnel. One of the media guys had got it on his laptop and straight away that just just struck a really special chord and i just thought what an iconic image you know the marathon was all about friendship it was all about community spirits standing shoulder to shoulder with each other

and i just thought that image um of kevin carrying rob over just really kind of a celebration of what they've achieved together in in terms of you, the awareness and the fundraising they've done for MND. I think collectively they've raised over £13 million for MND charities, which is just phenomenal. And I think especially in sort of rugby league, that's such a hyper-masculine sport to kind of see that bond, that friendship created a really positive image, I felt. And I think an image that people will look back on in years to come.

And to me, it just symbolises the true friendship and the bond that Rob and Kevin have. Yeah I want to talk a bit about MND specifically take us back to that moment it was 2019 when Rob got his diagnosis what was it like to hear that? Just devastating I think working in the NHS and as a physiotherapist, I had some understanding. I'd seen patients living with this disease and I think I sort of knew what we were in for. Whereas at the time, I don't think Rob had that insight. He'd, you know, as many people do, he'd sort of Googled it up and I knew it was in the back of his mind. But I don't think he really knew kind of the devastating effects of the disease and Rob's attitude was very much thank goodness it's me and not the children and you know I'll sort of fight this disease and I'll be okay and I know

Rob at the time was really worried about telling his parents especially his dad he didn't know what effect that would have on his dad and so it was really difficult to be in that situation and it was just you know life changing and and you know obviously your thoughts with rob and we've got three young children how are we going to tell them and how did you tell them what are we going to tell them and what did you say to him it was really difficult because it was just coming up to christmas and we sort of you know they'd broken up for the school holidays and we wanted to tell them before christ Christmas because we just thought it gives them something positive then to kind of coming up. And I think we didn't have a lot of the answers to the questions ourselves.

It was really difficult kind of thinking, what are the children going to ask us? Are we going to be able to answer their questions? But we sat them down and just said that, you know, the dad had been having some tests and it had shown that daddy had got motor neuron disease and that would shorten his life. And at the time, our youngest daughter, Maya, said, you know, kind of, what are you telling us this for? It's boring and sort of carried on playing. And then our eldest daughter a bit later came back

and sort of asked the question, does that mean that dad is going to die? And that was really, you know, kind of you just had tears in your eyes and, you know, you wanted to be able to say to her, you know, dad is going to be OK, is going to get better. But that wasn't the reality. And we've always had the policy of we'll be honest with the children because I never want them in years to come to say you said daddy was going to get better so it was really heartbreaking and yeah really hard as a parent to have those difficult conversations with your children um but they're just so resilient and they just love life and I think they're very much like the dad in that they you know they've tackled this head on and really really proud they don't look for self-pity. They love life and they get up every morning with, you know, beautiful smiles on their faces and they keep us going. So, you know, incredibly proud.

I was talking there to Lindsay Borough and the documentary Lindsay and Rob Living with MND is available now on ITVX. On Monday, Nuala is joined by Yasmin Lari, widely known as Pakistan's first female architect, renowned for her humanitarian work, activism and as a conservationist. Yasmin's career has spanned four decades and won her countless accolades, including establishing her own architectural practice, working on heritage projects with UNESCO. Yasmin's career has spanned four decades and won her countless accolades,

including establishing her own architectural practice and working on heritage projects with UNESCO. She is now receiving a gold medal for architecture. She's speaking to Nuala just after 10 on Monday morning. But for me, for today, have a lovely rest of the weekend. Bye-bye. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.