Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Vicky Pattison, Bananarama, Women's Health Strategy

Episode Date: July 23, 2022

TV personality Vicky Pattison shot to fame on the reality show Geordie Shore, where her extreme party-girl lifestyle in Newcastle was lived out in front of the cameras. Now, she’s taking a long, hard look at her past in a new documentary which centres around her father’s struggle with alcoholism for most of his adult life. She explains how this has, in part, contributed towards her own unhealthy relationship with drinking.England's first ever Women's Football team will finally be recognised with caps for a match that took place in 1972. Sue Whyatt, the reserve goalkeeper of the team shares what this recognition means to her and her teammates. Earlier this week the government launched its much awaited Women’s Health Strategy for England. We discuss with Women's Health Minister Maria Caulfield; Dame Professor Lesley Regan, the newly appointed Women's Health Ambassador; and BBC Health Correspondent Catherine Burns.Sara Dallin and Keren Woodward from Bananarama come into the Woman's Hour studio to talk about how it all started, their friendship and their new album, Masquerade. At least 20 Iranian feminists, most connected to Iran's #MeToo Movement, have written a letter of complaint to Instagram and Facebook after they were bombarded with thousands of fake followers. They say they've been deliberately targeted and want META - the owner of the social media platforms - to take action. We speak to one of the women affected, Samaneh Savadi, an Iranian women’s rights activist based in the UK.The author RJ Palacio discusses the 10th anniversary of her bestselling children's book Wonder, and shares her top tips for writing a book.Presenter: Paulette Edwards

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, I'm Paulette Edwards and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, where we bring you the must-hear interviews from the week just gone. Coming up, Pananarama are back with their brand new studio album and tell us what it's like to celebrate their 40th anniversary as a band. We're also joined by the Women's Health Minister to discuss the first government-led women's health strategy for England. And we speak to Sue Wyatt, member of the first England women's football team who have finally been recognised with caps for a match in 1972.

But first, you may know TV personality Vicky Pattison from her time on the reality show Geordie Shore, where her extreme party girl lifestyle in Newcastle was lived out in front of the cameras. Thank you. and how this has contributed in part towards her own unhealthy relationship with drinking. Her documentary for Channel 4 is called Vicky Pattison, My Dad, Alcohol and Me. Here's a clip where she puts some hard truths to her dad. Drinking to that volume, like, your body can't take it anymore. And I need you to understand we can't go through that anymore. I'm sorry. There's no need to be sorry, darling.

But there's days where I know I won't be able to walk past the booze shop. I know I won't. I have disappointed everybody so many times before that it would be a lie for me to say I'll never drink again tea.

I will try my absolute hardest. But the awful thing is I thoroughly believe that in ten years' time I could be saying exactly the same thing to you. And Vicky joined Nuala McGovern earlier this week to discuss the documentary. Nuala began by asking her how she felt listening back to the clip. Obviously, hearing that, it's never easy, you know. And I suppose in terms of a story arc for the documentary,

it would have been really lovely if he'd turned around at the end. And even more than that, just for me, you know, for him to say, oh, yeah, I'm done. I've seen the error of me ways. I've seen the light. I'm going to put everything behind us and turn over a new leaf but it it wouldn't have been um wouldn't have been authentic and it wouldn't have been true anybody who has struggled with addiction or knows someone who is is an alcoholic knows that

I think you're almost um you're in it for life, you know. And the best me dad could give us was that he would try. And I think I have to admire him for his honesty, I suppose, and his authenticity, even though I wish it was different. And was that enough that he gave you? I'm like, I think I'm always going to want more. God, like I love him so much. I wish the answer was different. I wish the answer was different for everybody going through it.

But I had to respect what he said. And I appreciate how hard he tries. So what motivated you to make this documentary? I've had so many thoughts in my head as I was listening to some of the clips about how you get your father on board, for example, to really air this thing that's so deep and personal and painful. Yeah, it was really hard for both of us. My mum's involved at some point as well, and she found it incredibly difficult as well. Like it's everybody's life and it's certainly not our past it's very much our present which makes it all that more difficult um but

we're all of a similar opinion um i grew up understanding even before i understood enough about my dad's illness that we weren't to talk about it that we were to be in like and that perpetuated this culture of shame you know and I I just don't want that to continue I don't want people to be ashamed of being an alcoholic or feel like they have to like hide things from people it's it's nothing to be ashamed of it's an illness it's a disease one in five children or have an alcoholic parent like it's just so much more common than most people realize and I think if we do start talking about it if we are more honest and open then you break down that stigma and there's less children growing up like me thinking that they are in some way so different to everybody else and a bit broken. And instead, perhaps it's happening to so many, but hidden.

How would you describe your childhood, Vicky? I think when you're like, it's amazing when you're a kid because you actually just all you know is what you know so what you're exposed to is what you think is normal and I thought my household was normal and for the most part it absolutely was two beautiful parents who cared about me and my sister loads and did their absolute best but it But it was only when I became an adult, or at least like late teens, that I realised a lot of the stuff wasn't commonplace in most people's homes, you know.

Sometimes quite loud, sometimes a bit scary. But for the most part, I had a very happy childhood and I do feel really grateful. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. But I suppose that alcohol being around in that respect brings this kind of to you because you are somebody who has lived out loud, as they say, you know what I mean, in front of the cameras.

It's a nice way of putting it. Exactly. So lots of people feel that they know you, but they will know, you know, there's often that kind of term fond of a drink or you could say party girl lifestyle. You talk about this particularly on your days back on the Geordie Shore, perhaps. Were you aware of that? Were you thinking about your drinking or your father's life as you were kind of indulging? So when I was on Geordie Shore, I was like probably about 21, 22. Obviously, I stayed on it for quite a while, but I was really young.

And I don't think my father's illness played a huge part in my decision making process at all. You're just at that age, youthfully arrogant, aren't you? Like you completely think you've got it all figured out, which you absolutely don't. So no, I just, I don't think it occurred to me the huge parallels that sort of were beginning to appear until it was all a bit too late, really. Hindsight's a great thing, isn't it? Yeah, do you think, was there, like some people talk about people talk about you know a moment or a catalyst was it that with you or was it a more gradual realization

no I think with me it was a slow burner um me time on Geordie Shore was certainly a bit of um it definitely exacerbated you know my complicated relationship with alcohol. But even after I left that, you know, and I supposedly had the world at my feet after I did I Am A Celeb, I still had a very complicated relationship with alcohol. I think I probably always will, for the truth be told. But it's just learning to, like, manage it. And that is what I'm sort of struggling with now. How would you describe it then, that relationship?

It's definitely been a turbulent one. I think at the moment I'd describe myself as a very mindful drinker. I'd love to just be somebody who could sort of have a spontaneous night out and have a couple of glasses of wine with our friends and not think about it, but it's never going to be me. I'm always going to have to be the person who says, who's looked at the menu beforehand and knows what she's having and has the car booked to go home even before she's got to the place she's going, you know.

And that might sound really boring, like I'm such a party pooper to everybody, but I will poop that party if it helps my health. Have you ever thought about giving up alcohol completely? It's definitely crossed my mind and there've been periods of my life where I've opted to have prolonged sobriety but I would like to avoid it if possible not because I'm so desperate for a drink or anything like that but just because I'd love to avoid it if possible. Not because I'm so desperate for a drink or anything like that, but just because I'd love to be able to exercise some balance and control. I'd love to be able to say that's my life,

that I can have a nice night with a couple of drinks and not ruin it or go too far or feel in some way controlled by it. How hopeful do you feel for that? Do you know what? If you'd asked us that, like, end of last year, before I started doing the documentary, I felt really bleak. I felt like I was...

..going to lose my battle with this regardless. I felt like I was always just going to end up like my dad. And it was just a matter of time but actually since making the documentary um I feel like I've been educated a lot about the disease um about what my dad's going through and also like about my motivations for why I drink like we all have them and I just don't think I was aware of mine I'm really anxious like I'm quite socially awkward and I deal with big social I was aware of mine, I'm really anxious. I become quite socially awkward. And I deal with big social situations by having too many drinks because that calms me down.

So now I just try and avoid places where I probably would need to drink to be calmer, you know. So I think now I'm feeling more hopeful than I ever have before and it is pretty much down to just a better understanding of it, you know. I'm really glad to hear that. And, you know, wish you all the best with it, of course. But I'm wondering, as you're saying that, what did you learn about your dad's illness?

I, for years, used to cry and used to be angry and didn't understand why my dad didn't love me more than he loved drink but it's not that easy and um it's not that straightforward they didn't choose this life at all um and there are like huge there's a huge part of him that is trying so hard all the time to be better and loads of like on so many days he wins that battle you know and on the days he doesn't like he doesn't we don't need to be judgmental or angry we need to show kindness and compassion how hard is that though it's quite tough sometimes sometimes it's dead easy because he's my dad and i love him um and my instant reaction

is to wrap him up in cotton wool. But other times, you know, when you just, you want the dad you're like, you want the dad that you sort of promised, then it's hard. You know, you're doing this to raise awareness. What advice would you have, because there'll be lots of people listening

that have an alcoholic parent or perhaps have lived through it. Maybe their parent is even no longer here, but definitely the ramifications of growing up through that remain. I feel like one of my huge motivations for making this was to raise awareness about it. But also so anyone going through something like I've gone through doesn't feel alone I felt so alone growing up like I was literally the only one who could understand it and it's madness because you're never alone there's always someone who is going through something similar or has it worse off or can just totally understand. And that is what this documentary is going to do. It's going to shed some sunlight, some candour, all of it on, for some reason, a very taboo topic. That was Vicky Pattison.

And details of organisations offering information and support with addiction are available at bbc.co.uk forward slash action line. Or you can call for free at any time to hear recorded information on 08000 155 947. The women's Euros are currently underway with all eyes on the Lionesses who are amongst the favourites to win the golden trophy. At the start of the month the reserve goalkeeper of the very first England women's football team, Sue Wyatt, got in touch with us. She pointed out that after the Lionesses beat Scotland

in 1972 in their first international victory her team were not recognised for their accomplishments with official caps. A cap is granted to players for each game they play for their country. This was her plea. I want those girls who went on to coach and play for England for a long time they should be getting a cap each, even if it's just for that very first match

an official FA cap. Well Barbara Keeley, Labour's Shadow Minister for the Arts and Civil Society, heard Sue on Women's Hour and raised the subject in Parliament last week. And in a wimp for Women's Hour and the women's team, on Friday last week, the Football Association made an announcement that it will be awarding the caps. Sue Wyatt joined Krupa Paddy earlier this week to share her reaction.

I can't believe it. I'm so grateful to all Women's Hour, Emma Barnett, it's been wonderful, Barbara Keeley, and Sam Cunningham from the iNewspaper, who also, his mum picked up the thing on Women's Hour as well, so he ran it

as well. So he ran it as well. So he's been interviewing some of the other females and we're all so delighted. And the fact that we're all going to get the caps for all of our games. I would have been happy as long as that first team got the caps, but now we're all going to get one, which means I'll get one as well. So it's just wonderful yes

but Sue it's taken 50 years did you ever imagine that this day would come um I didn't to be quite honest and I have to say that it's thanks to today's lionesses who've been playing so brilliantly they've put they've given us a platform to ask for us to be recognized as well so I think it's women acting together has brought this about in the end and I'm so so pleased I think it's shown how powerful women can get these things done as long as we're not divided and we support each other yes absolutely have you been on the phone to one another messaging each other. Yes, absolutely. Have you been on the phone to one another messaging each other? What's been the conversation? We have, yes, yes. It was because we kept getting trickles of information through. So there was emails flying backwards and forwards. Oh, it's going in Commons

and whatever. Then we heard, oh, they're going to recognise the first team, the 1972 team, and we were absolutely delighted about that. And then to hear when that came through, there was just a flurry of emails, Facebooks, and as I said, we've all, well, a lot of us have got Facebook pages as well. And that's been going wild with everybody congratulating us, male, female, everybody has been sending their best wishes and saying about time too. Absolutely. An FA spokesperson said, it's always been our intention to invite all former internationals to attend an England Women's Fixture in the autumn, where they will be

honoured. We are also committed to awarding them with bespoke caps. Sue, have you heard from the FA as yet? No, we've heard nothing at all from the FA. And I think we have to realise that those from my era are all pensioners now. Some of them gave up careers to play football and will not be on a great pension. If they do, like they did last time

when they invited them to Wembley, leave it till the last minute, I don't think that many of them will be able to afford to even come down. So, I mean, that's another point. And I don't think the FA did intend to award us the caps. And I do think it's thanks to Woman's Hour that we are being awarded them. I don't think that that was on the cards at all. There's never been any contact with us about this.

Well, if you do get that invite, please do let us know and we would love to follow up with you. Back to the actual cap, what's it going to look like? Is it a normal one? Is there something special on it? I'm assuming it's going to be, as for the caps that the Lionesses get today, I'm assuming that that is what is going to happen. I'm not even sure whether they have the dates on them or the year that they were won, but it doesn't matter.

It's happened now. We've been officially recognised. The only thing I am a little worried about is one of our teammates, and I hope you'll forgive me, but Jeannie Allitt, who scored that winning goal against Scotland, we have been unable to trace her. And if there's anybody out there who could possibly get hold of her, we know she went playing football in the Netherlands.

So if anybody knows where she is or could get her to contact us, because it's important, she was a great player and she should have that cap too. So yes, a shout out for Jeannie Allard. Well, the power of radio. I really do hope that we can connect with Jeannie. So do you think this development could have a global impact at all? I'm hoping so. I'm hoping so.

I think if we all support each other and suggest that everybody who plays competitive football for their country should get a cap wherever they're from. And really, they at least need expenses to keep going. Because as I said, a lot of those in my era gave up their careers to play football without any pay, without any expenses. They carried on playing and coaching and helping young players. And that's why the game is where it is now. That was Sue Wyatt. And during the programme, Jeannie Allitt, the scorer of the winning goal in 1972, did make contact saying, good day, just been listening to Radio 4 about me.

OMG, well, I'm alive and kicking, blimey, finally a cap. For generations women have lived with a healthcare system that is designed by men for men. Those were the words of Nadine Doris, then the Minister of Patient Safety, Suicide Prevention and Mental Health back in March 2021. Despite making up 50% of the population and living longer than men, women have been underrepresented in research. We spend a greater proportion of our lives in ill health and disability with growing geographic inequalities in women's life expectancy. Promising to reset the dial on women's health, the government said it would create the first government-led national women's health strategy for England. Nearly 100,000 women have

come forward since April 2021. They've shared their healthcare experiences and we now have the results. The government's much-awaited Women's Health Strategy for England was launched earlier this week. To discuss, Krupa Paddy was joined by Women's Health Minister Maria Caulfield and Dame Professor Lesley Regan, the newly appointed Women's Health Ambassador. But first she spoke to the BBC health correspondent Catherine Burns and asked why we need a health strategy specifically for women. It's a really good question because a lot of people will always throw the statistic at you that men have shorter life

expectancies than women so why do we need this? So let me throw some other stats at you. Women tend to spend over a quarter of their lives in poor health, that's compared to a fifth for men. They also tend to be affected by disability at an early age. They spend more time off sick than men. In fact, right now, if you were to look at the numbers of men and women who are off long term sick, there's more than 100,000 extra women who are off sick than men. So ministers are saying, the NHS belongs to all of us, but women are 51% of the population. They have obstacles getting their care and they want to right these wrongs. It makes for grim listening hearing you read out those numbers. So we've got this strategy now,

what is it exactly setting out? Do you know what, I think it's important to start with how this all came about. So you touched on that consultation then of about 100,000 people getting in touch in England. To give you a bit of context, the last four government consultations this year have had about 7,000 responses. So ministers will say, you know, they were quite overwhelmed by the response they got here. And the message that came through loud and clear was that women do not feel listened to. 84% of the people who spoke about their experiences said that healthcare professionals don't listen to them. And they gave tens of thousands of stories of testimonies of not feeling listened to, having their symptoms dismissed,

having pain dismissed. I've been out speaking to women about this. One of them said to me, you can either have a vagina or a voice. You can't have both. So this strategy is an attempt to sort all of that out. And let's face it, that is a lot. The overarching aim and ambition is to boost health outcomes for women over 10 years. The phrase you're going to hear a lot today, I imagine,

is a life course approach. So this is everything a woman needs all the way through her life. Now, let me just give you a few of the specifics. They're going to try and get better access to IVF, especially for female same-sex couples. There's something about baby loss. So if parents lose a baby before 24 weeks of pregnancy, if they want to, they'll be able to get this recognised with a pregnancy loss certificate. There's going to be an attempt to make sure endometriosis services have the most up-to-date advice so patients can expect a better standard of care. But what there is not is a lot of new money. So there's £10 million that's been put forward for breast cancer screening. That's targeting women who

aren't coming forward for their mammograms. But £10 million over a 10 year strategy, that's not a lot so far. So that's the upfront money. And you talk about an approach that will essentially help women at every stage of their lives. What does that exactly mean? Because women are different. Yes. So and the strategy does recognise that. So it has specific measures for women at various stages. But one thing I think is really interesting is the idea of women's health hubs. So there isn't really anything happening on that scale right now. There's a handful of places that focus on maybe just one thing. So I went to one recently in Liverpool. This is a hub that focuses on contraception. So it makes it easier for women to come forward and

get long acting contraception, so coils and implants. And it's really working. Since they've started, they've seen a 30% uptake in the number of women accessing it. But if you read the strategy carefully, look at the wording here. It says one of its top commitments is encouraging the expansion of women's health hubs around the country. Encouraging doesn't mean funding. Now, Dr Stephanie Cook is the clinical lead here. She's got big plans to expand this hub to other areas. But also she's got some very real concerns about how she's going to make that happen. So we're really thrilled to have been able to improve access for women and

provide these services closer to home and to see more women coming through these women's health hubs. What we want to do now is add in other services so that we can provide help with women going through menopause with women needing other health services such as pessary changes and other challenges that women go through. We want to provide joined-up care for them. What we really need now is increased support, funding, finance, education so that we can make this happen. Maria Carford let me start with you we've just heard that clip there the the call for increased support funding finance and education

that is what is needing is that what this strategy is going to deliver? So you know it is a 10-year strategy one of the areas that we want to look at is the women's health hubs I think they're exciting opportunities there because these are hubs that are staffed by people who are got an experience and interest in women's health so hopefully women will feel when they go to them a very different experience to what they reported in the call for evidence. What we want to do with the ones that have started already is to evaluate that experience and to show the difference that they do make. And obviously, then that will, you know, if we're able to demonstrate the difference it makes. And we've heard in your report that it seems to be already getting increased attendances and they want to develop extra services. If we can show that, then then we can go to Treasury and look for extra funding

in the lifetime of this strategy. So I think, you know, we're starting to make those small changes that will have a ripple effect over the whole lifetime of this strategy. And you mentioned funding, and I do want to unpick some of that a little later in our conversation. But Leslie, let me bring you in here. What will this strategy mean for women? As someone who has dedicated her life to the health care of women, what do you think it's going to change? Well, I think it's going to change a lot. And you emphasised in your introduction that everyone was rather overwhelmed by the massive response of over 100,000 submissions to the public consultation. And I think an enormous, a lot of progress

has already been made in women feeling that they have been listened to. And now, of course, they want to see action. And I think that what Maria was just saying about using women's health hubs is important. But I think what I'd like to emphasise is it's not so much about new money, but it's about using the services that we're already funding more efficiently. So when I go and see the things that I need to do to keep myself healthy as a woman, they're not complicated. And my problem is often accessing them in the

same place. Because of our historical commissioning, we've often got things, we know we're often making women move around lots of different facilities to do things that could be sorted out in an hour in the same place, if we catered for them and their needs and wrap the services around them. So I really do think that we could do better for less if we were able to think about women's needs and ensure that they access these maintenance services easily. Because most of the time that women visit healthcare professionals, they are not ill.

They are merely trying to do maintenance things. You mentioned accessing contraception. Lots of the contraceptive products that are currently available to us are the mainstay of managing heavy or painful periods. And as we've heard over the last six months or so, there's a lot of women who would like to be able to access help for their menopause. And one of the other things that I think this strategy has focused very clearly on is trying to make, or you know, we won't try,

we will ensure that the NHS website becomes the go-to place for women and health professionals to gain the information they need. Because at the end of the day, women's health needs are predictable and that's what this life course approach is all about. You can map out on a sheet of paper what you need and I need and I think what we should aim to be doing is ensuring that the resources we already have are really focused on meeting those needs and so prevention rather than disease intervention. And so Maria if as Les says, this is about using the resources we have, those existing resources more efficiently, where have we been going wrong? Because the UK is found to have the largest female health gap in the G20 and the 12th largest globally.

That is stark. Is this going to make a difference if, as Leslie says, the emphasis should be in part on using what we have more efficiently? Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, you know, we heard from women that the system currently, you know, their frustration is it doesn't listen to them when they come forward and ask for help with their healthcare needs. And the system actually doesn't, you know, reach out to them in their communities. Women have to kind of really push to get seen. And the health hub example is one of that coming out to women and helping them. If you look at the commitment in the Women's Health Strategy around cervical cancer, for example, that's about using existing resources. We could eradicate cervical cancer if the uptake of the

vaccine is strong with young women. There are certain groups of young women who are not coming forward with the vaccine. There are certain groups of young women or all women not coming forward and having their cervical smear tests. And some of the exciting work that's been done is around kits that you can do your cervical smear at home. So this is about changing the culture and the emphasis that and trying to reach out to women these are women often juggling jobs young families caring responsibilities and unless we make the health service work for them they'll continue to have barriers seeking help and so can i jump in there maria the the steps you mention about cervical cancer are they anything new well that you, certainly around the home screening kits,

yes, they are new. There's pilot studies being run in parts of the country which is showing that for those hard-to-reach women who don't come forward for their smear test, the uptake is improving. And so, yeah, there are some measures that will make a big difference if we can roll those out nationally.

And if you look at some of the other elements in the health strategy around IVF, one of the big things is the inconsistency across the country. In some parts of the country, you can access IVF relatively easily, others you can't. And we need to make sure that there's a consistent approach across the country. So, you know, this is about making sure that the health needs that women have whatever stage of their their life they're in that we make it as easy and as accessible and we're just simply listening to women you know the Ockenden review which only reported a short time ago classic you know women weren't listened to during their pregnancy and you know the outcomes you know failed them If you look at the Cumberledge report, similar experiences where women were coming forward, expressing concerns, again, weren't listened to. So it's not just about the services. It's not just about the funding. It's changing the culture that the health service must meet the needs that women are asking for.

Funding for these hubs, where's the money going to come from well we the first few that have been set up we're doing a valuation to make sure that firstly they are meeting the needs of women and that women are getting better outcomes and there's a range of measures that we'll be looking at but also that it improves the experience for women they they do find them accessible that they are feeling that they're being listened to and so so once we've gathered that evidence, we're doing the same with family hubs. We're rolling out 75 family hubs in the most deprived parts of the country to help new young mums with some of the services they need, whether that's mental health support, advice on breastfeeding, advice on vaccination.

And again, we'll be evaluating those. Once we've got the evidence base to show the difference that they make, we can then look for further funding to roll them out more widely. It might be worrying though that you've said on a couple of occasions that you are looking for funding yet we have this strategy but it doesn't sound like the funds are in place. I want to talk about the effectiveness overall of this strategy considering the current state of the government

because this strategy has gone through the hands of three health ministers Matt Han Hancock, Sajid Javid, and now Steve Barclay. Why should the public feel like the government is going to see this through when there is so much turbulence within the party right now? And how can you reassure women, Maria, that these bold ambitions are not just going to remain as just that, ambitions? So, you know, as a Conservative government, we're the first government ever to take up the mantle for women's health. You know, we did the call for evidence. We were overwhelmed with the response. And it just shows that no matter who the health secretary is

or who the health minister for women's health is, we are carrying on with that work. And it's an absolute priority for us. And I think it's 51% of the population, a politician of any colour who ign's 51% of the population, a politician of any colour, who ignores 51% of the population will not be forgiven. So I don't think it matters who the health secretary is and who the prime minister is, this will be taken forward. Because, you know, if you look at the level of interest in debate, whether it's backbenchers, opposition

members, members of the government, This is an absolute priority now. And I'm really proud that we're introducing the first ever women's health strategy. We've got the first ever women's health ambassador. And I'm sure Leslie will be holding everyone's feet to the fire in making sure that the strategy happens. So I think we must harness this opportunity and make sure that we do carry it forward. But I'm pretty confident that that will happen. But Leslie, let me bring you back in here. So many of the messages that we are having through into this programme as we speak are about misdiagnosis and how this is a specific concern amongst women. How is this strategy going to ensure that this trend does not continue? Well, the focus is on listening to women

and placing their needs at the centre and wrapping the services around them. I don't think we're going to solve everything next week, but I think that over the next year, certainly we're going to make big inroads into assuring women that their concerns are being listened to and that they're able to access the services they need and the diagnostic tests that they need

to come to clear diagnoses swiftly. What I do know from working in the UK and globally is that when you get things better for women, everybody else in society benefits. Dame Professor Lesley Regan, Women's Health Minister Maria Caulfield and BBC Health correspondent Catherine Burns. Still to come on the programme,

best-selling author of the children's classic Wonder, RJ Palacio shares her top tips on how to write a book. And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 o'clock in the morning during the week, just subscribe to the daily podcast for free via the Woman's Hour website. Now, if you're like me and a child of the 80s, this band need no introduction. Bananarama are back with their 12th studio album called Masquerade.

The band has had different configurations over the years, beginning as a trio, but the pop duo, always at the heart of it, Sarah Dallin and Keren Woodward, have been together for 40 years and friends for even longer than that. They were listed in the Guinness Book of Records as the most successful female group of all time and have now had 30 hits, selling 30 million records worldwide. Sarah and Karen joined me earlier and I asked them what they remember from their first meeting in a school playground. We were very sporty so I think we were drawn together with our love of running basically, running and jumping and playing. Karen had a fantastic selection. She had very straight hair. She had a fantastic selection of hair bubbles, cola cubes and all kinds of things. I was very jealous. Yeah. And

her mum made her clothes. So she always had these incredibly short mini skirts and fabulous fabrics. Ridiculously short homemade dresses. So did your mum go on to make any clothes for you when you were in Bananarama then? No, but my grandma's sewing machine was utilised on many occasions to make to rustle up clothes that we all wore. Right. Yeah still got it. Wonderful. So Paul Cook then from the Sex Pistols first discovered you. How did those draft pieces go from hair bobbles in the playground to Bananarama? Well I was at the London College of Fashion training to be a journalist and while I I was there, we were staying, Karen and I were staying in the YWCA opposite the British Museum.

That closed down and we had met Paul in a club. This was early 80s, so he'd finished with the Pistols by then. But he said, you can live in this above our rehearsal room. So it was like Malcolm McLaren's office. We moved in, it had no hot water, no bathroom. I mean, it was a hovel but they used to come and rehearse downstairs with their new band and karen and i used to go down and do

backing vocals i learned to play the bass and we're playing the drums it was just an introduction into that world and paul said why don't you guys um you know get together and i would i met siobhan at the london college of fashion so So the three of us set about recording demos. Yeah, I call her the beret-wearing Siobhan Fahey. Yeah, we all loved a beret. Loved a beret, rocked a beret. So you had no intention of being musical then before you actually met? Well, we were very musical. I mean, we spent all, well, we were in all the school musicals,

the school choir. We spent most of our spare time with a cassette recorder recording ourselves singing along with barbara streisand and various other people trying to emulate them and making up dance routines so didn't consider it as a career but it was kind of in us that the sort of love of music yeah i don't think as a female you think that's an option certainly back in the 70s you don't think well, girls can go on to be singers in the way that it was such a male-dominated industry and probably still is.

But fortunately, there are more females coming forward now, coming through, yeah. Talking about that then, you've sold, as we've said, 30 million records worldwide. We need to keep saying that because that is phenomenal, isn't it? Do you feel you were recognised by the music industry at the time? I don think so i think when we started off and we were very young and uh we looked pretty if i may be so bold to say reasonably pretty and i think people wouldn't judge you just by the way you looked so it was quite hard to be um to get respect or any credibility but i think a 40-year

career does demand a little bit of attention well there you go longevity says it all yeah but how did you feel when all that was happening did you have a sense of what you want your image wanted your image to be we we were lucky in in some ways I think in some ways we had more freedom than you might have now in in some cases you know they left they let us you know we were we had no stylists or any of that. And because it worked, they sort of let us get on with it from that point of view.

So the record company were very supportive of us. I think there may be journalists, people in the industry at that time probably didn't give us the respect that we should have had just us the respect that we should have had just for the fact that it was so personal to us. It was there was no one manipulating us. But we wrote our own stuff. I think I was 26 when a journalist wrote, well, they're pushing 30, they should stop now. And then Karen was 24 when she had a baby. And it was really like, well,

that's it, you should call it a day. Their mother's pushing 30. Really, they're not our demographic anymore. That's sort of coming from people who you want to play your music, which is absolutely outrageous. How did it feel for you? Do you remember how it felt at the time? I remember when I had Thomas, which was right in the middle of it,

and we were number one in the States when I found out I was pregnant. And it was almost, I was ashamed and embarrassed that I might be letting people down because it was not really part of the image of what people wanted. It is very sad, the way I felt about it. I mean, I was very determined and and you know certainly I only had the one child and best thing I ever did but yeah that I think there was a a sort of pressure to not embrace motherhood and and that would have gone for all of us and and and all women in the business

at that time because like you're ruining everything by being being a mother because you'll be be perceived in a different way I don't think that that is the case now, thank goodness. Well, I think about Siobhan, actually. She was pregnant on one of the Top of the Pops appearances, wasn't she? And we remember this fondly. Me and my friend Jude talk about it all the time, how beautiful it was to see a woman, a pop artist, pregnant on the telly and it was such a rare thing to see.

Yeah, she was just about a year after me, Siobhan got pregnant. It did rather interfere with our plans to tour, if I'm being perfectly honest. Two tours were postponed because of pregnancy. We eventually managed to tour just after Siobhan left, which was really sad. We're going to talk now about this new album called Masquerade,

ethereal synth-pop dance tracks nicknamed, and I've heard you call it a slice of gothic disco. Shall we have a little listen to the title track? Let's. Don't let the stars fade away Cos you can be who you want to be Do you know what I really like about that? I like that it sounds like Bananarama and that I can do my Bananarama moves to it, but there's a freshness as well to it.

Is that what you were intending? We hadn't written an album for ten years except for the last album in 2019. But that was spread out, wasn't it? So it was a very different thing. We felt very ready to do it. And also we're self-releasing, so we're completely in control of everything. And at the end of the day, we own our own music.

So there's no pressure. We're not thinking, oh, where's the chart position? We're top of the pot. There's nothing like that now. So it's much more freeing. And it was written during lockdown so it was quite a reflective album it's a little bit of nostalgia there a little bit of 80s sounding but still you know fresh and new so yeah i think it's we're really pleased with it that was sarah dallin

and karen woodward of bananarama at least 20 iranian feminists most connected to iran's hashtag meToo movement, have written a letter of complaint to Instagram and Facebook after they were bombarded with thousands of fake followers. They say they've been deliberately targeted and want Meta, the owner of the social media platforms, to take action. They say they're under a coordinated cyber attack. Because the bots have made their accounts unmanageable,

they've had to put them on private mode, which limits their social media reach and the community they're trying to build. One of the women affected is Samaneh Savadi, an Iranian women's rights activist based here in the UK. She explained to Nuala McGovern what happened to her account. Basically, it was mid-May one night when I checked my Instagram account. I saw I have 4,000 more followers. That wasn't strange for me because at that time I had 260,000 people

following me. And normally that happens when I post something that goes viral three four thousand people join me but then when I looked at them it was just like a thousands of accounts with a photo of a cat or a banana with the username of xxx449 star and not hundreds of them three thousands of them and I looked at other feminist pages and they were the same we all had like the same accounts following all of us and it was a moment I mean that now I make a joke about it and I laugh about it but at that moment we we basically panicked because we didn't know what those bots gonna do are they gonna report us are instagram gonna take our pages down and be like oh you bought some fake account so yeah we made our pages private but the request would still come so we spent hours deleting the request and

eventually we're just okay it's over now we can go public again. We went public and then attack happened again. Up until today, we're in a back and forth. And also very time consuming, I'm thinking, just as you're saying that, which perhaps takes you away from the work that you are trying to do. But there was, or is, I should say, a Swedish not-for-profit IT company called Quirium that has investigated and it's traced some of these fake followers back to at least two social media marketing firms in Pakistan. It says 3,000 new followers had been added on a daily basis for several weeks. The attack was clearly targeted and thousands of dollars were invested. What do you think about that? Do you think you've been targeted? And if so, why? Yes, I think so. I think we have been targeted. Let's start from the context. Like,

when we are talking about the Iranian feminist activists, when we talk about Iranian feminist activists, we should talk about Islamic Republic, a government that, you know, suppresses, I mean, so many groups of people, but women are one of the main one. And feminist activists inside Iran are facing jail, they are under threat, some of them are banned from leaving Iran, someone like me outside Iran, I can't go back in, my families are under pressure. So in that situation it is we as a feminist of course we don't get silent we you know we resist and we find a entertainment platform to use as a tool of activism basically so I guess the government is not happy about that the I mean or whoever is behind this the anti-feminist group if if you want to call it.

But so what I can say is they don't like us. They don't like us as a feminist. They don't like the topics that we are talking about. They don't want that feminism in basically discourse to be out there, to be public, because it wasn't like we are 15 women behind closed doors whispering about our issues. No, we were i've spoken i myself i talk very openly about my experience of abortion motherhood the dark the reality of motherhood sexual harassment people or other feminists were under the same attack they are working a need to sexual harassment women's sexuality so all those topics are very important, but sensitive and taboo topics in a routine. I mean, so many societies, Iran is one of them as well.

So I think that is why we've been targeted. And to be honest, hearing those numbers makes me happy. Thousands of dollars because the price of silencing us, I mean, it's hard. And of course, we do not know if you've been targeted, whether you've been targeted, and particularly with the Iranian authorities, for example. That is absolutely

your opinion and nothing that the BBC can verify. But this is what you are thinking. But I did mention Instagram, Facebook owned by Meta now. And we have spoken to them as well about these accusations. And they say about being targeted

or these fake bots that are still there. It says, we want everyone to feel safe on Instagram, particularly activists, both in Iran and around the world. We're continuing to investigate the activists' concerns. We'll take action on any accounts that break our rules. Have you heard from Meta? What have they said to you?

It's been for two months now that basically they are saying they are investigating. We haven't heard more than that from them. And the bots are still there. Like I myself have more than 200,000 bots on my page. And I know other feminist activists, they have more than 500,000 bots on their pages, which makes it so hard to manage.

What is the problem with having those bots there? Apart from the fact that it makes us feel unsafe. We made those safe spaces for ourselves, for the Iranian women community. Apart from that, they basically change our network. For example, before these attacks, I was 80% of my followers were inside Iran and the rest were Iranian diaspora

that live in Germany, America, Canada. But now that totally changed. Half of my followers are from India. And then 10% from Brazil, 10% from Argentina. I know that they are not Iranians. So now Instagram suggests me real Indian people. They are not bots. but it's just like, okay, so many Indian are following you. So probably you should be someone interested.

So it brings me out. I am not able to reach my targeted community anymore. Yes. Yes. And I suppose some of the issues you're talking about are also issues, of course, in other countries, Saminé, as well. Are people able to find you, though, still, as you flip between that private and public mode? Well, I hope so. I hope so. You know, the problem, I mean, of course,

I'm more than happy to, woman, from any languages in any part of the world hearing me, but the problem is I'm talking on my page, I'm talking in Farsi, and unfortunately they don't understand me, I don't understand them. So that is a problem. But then, you know, feminism is such a taboo topic in Iran.

So sometimes when I talk about something like abortion, people are not willing to comment there publicly or even follow me publicly. They want my content to be public so they can see it without interacting with me. Now they have to follow me, which makes it difficult for people. And basically, I think privating us is a new way of silencing us, basically. That was Samané Savardy. RJ Palacio is the author of the best-selling children's book, Wonder,

which is now celebrating its 10th anniversary. Wonder tells the story of Oggy, a young boy who has facial abnormalities, who just wants to fit in at school. It challenges readers both young and old about empathy, compassion and acceptance. In the story, Julian is Oggy's class bully. In its sequel, White Bird, which is to be released as a film later this year, Julian is sent to live with his grandmother, who teaches him the importance of courage and the power of kindness. Krupa Paddy spoke to RJ Palacio earlier this week and began by asking her about Ogi's story. It is about a 10-year-old boy who has a very significant craniofacial difference and

basically because of that he hasn't attended sort of quote-unquote normal school because he was always having surgeries but in the fifth grade with around the age of 10, his parents decide that it's time. He goes to a regular school and he does. And Wonder follows his journey as he starts school. And it's told from his point of view and the point of view of his circle of friends and the people that are in his community who become a big part of his life. What stayed with me from your writing was this brutal, raw emotion that Augie shares. And there is one line when Augie says to his mum, Mummy, why do I have to be so ugly? And she says he is not, but he insists, I know I am, at which point she kisses him. And you've told, yes, this story through the eyes of children, through Augie, through his classmates,

through his sister. But what you've also done so beautifully, RJ, in my opinion, is capture the agony that parents can feel when their child comes home from school and says, mummy, daddy, I'm being called out for my differences. I do hear often that, you know, wonder makes people cry. I mean, it's sort of the trope about wonder. When parents talk about it having made them cry. I think it's because they see themselves and they see how hard it is as a parent to to see your kids struggle with anything, with being lonely, with being ostracized, with being bullied, with being different in any sort of way or not connecting with friends and all of that. It's painful. It's painful being a parent sometimes.

And Wonder does capture that, which is why when people ask me why we don't actually hear from the mom and dad in Wonder. And, you know, we actually do. You just have to read between the lines. Yeah. Yeah. So White Bird is a continuation of the story of wonder and i've watched the trailer it looks equally as moving tell us how it moves this story along well it takes place in the

it begins in the present with julian having a conversation with his grandmother um and julian hasn't really changed much you know at the beginning of the book. And his grandmother really wants to connect with him and understand what is at the core of his bullying. So she decides to share a story that she doesn't like to talk about very much. It was about her struggles as a young girl growing up in Nazi-occupied France as a Jewish girl and how she ultimately had to go into hiding during the occupation. And it was the kindness of some strangers who really helped her get through that terrible time in her life.

It is a story about the courage it takes to be kind, especially in times when having that kind of, or showing that kind of kindness to strangers could cost you your life. And I thought that it was important to tell that story now, just because of the world we happen to be living in, and just as a way of sort of reminding kids of sort of the lessons of the past that we have to face in order to remember and honor and also learn from. Another important story that I want you to share is how you made that transition from graphic designer to successful children's author. And what advice you might have for women who might be wondering, well, I could do that. I want to do that. I'm at home. I've got an idea. I want to put,

you know, pen to paper and make this happen. I was a graphic designer. I want to do that. I'm at home. I've got an idea. I want to put, you know, pen to paper and make this happen. I was a graphic designer. I was an art director. And that's what I, you know, and I had, I was raising my two kids and had a pretty busy life, working nine to five. But I had this idea for the story. And I would say that the, you know, I ended up finding the time to write by waking up at midnight every day and writing for three hours until three in the morning until I finished that book, because I was that determined to write it. And I couldn't find any time during normal hours to do it. I would say to everyone, just, you have to find the time for yourself to do what it is you want to do. And in terms of writing a book, it's daunting, I think, to say to yourself, to say aloud, I want to write a book.

And I totally get that. So my advice to you is just write one page at a time. Just think in terms of like, OK, you know, today I'm going to write one page and tomorrow I'm going to write another page. And before you know it, you've got your 10 pages, you've got a chapter of a book and you're on your way. That was RJ Palacio. Well, that's all from me today. Enjoy the rest of your weekend and join Emma Barnett on Woman's Hour, Monday from 10. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.