Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman’s Hour: We are Lady Parts, Environment Minister Rebecca Pow, Police abuse supercomplaint, Brit rising star Griff

Episode Date: May 22, 2021

A TV comedy series featuring funny and bold Muslim women – ‘We Are Lady Parts’ is a new six part comedy series for Channel 4. It follows the highs and lows of the female punk band Lady Parts. Anita speaks to Anjana Vasan and series writer Nida Manzoor.The Government has announced a range of measures to protect the environment, from banning peat in garden centres to increasing the rate of tree planting and reversing the loss of species diversity. A 10p charge on single-use plastic bags came into force in England on Friday. But what difference will these policies - and others made in the run-up to COP26 - make to the crisis facing nature and the climate? Emma speaks to Environment Minister Rebecca Pow.Listener Clementine Baig was diagnosed with Primary Ovarian Insufficiency last year, and got in touch to share her experiences with infertility. She's joined by the Podcaster Noni Martins, whose husband was diagnosed with Male Factor Infertility in 2019, to explore how an infertility diagnosis can impact families, relationships and self-image.Since a supercomplaint was made last year about domestic abuse by police officers, dozens more women have come forward to say they are affected. The centre for women's justice is still waiting for an outcome to its complaint. But wants the way these cases are dealt with to be drastically changed. We talk to a woman who suffered abuse from her police officer husband. The terms polyamorous and consensually non-monogamous are increasingly normalised when it comes to relationships and dating. For some people, monogamy just doesn’t work for them. We hear from three people who all describe themselves as non-monogamous.Twenty year old Griff is the recipient of this year’s prestigious BRITs Rising Star Award, following past winners such as Celeste, Sam Smith and Adele. Griff has also been nominated for an Ivor Novello award and ended 2020 by singing the sound-track for Disney's Christmas advert. She performs a special version of her song Black Hole for Woman’s Hour.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Good afternoon. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, the place where you get the best bits from the week just gone. And as the programme is now officially an hour, my, what a lot of choices we had. In a moment, Environment Minister Rebecca Pow and the comedy about a female Muslim punk band. What a satisfying sentence that was to say. The reality of telling your mother she's not going to be a grandma and the women pushing the boundaries of relationships. I'm dating both of them and then they're dating and then you know we have a relationship the three of us as well. You know we schedule date nights with each other, we schedule date nights with our girlfriend when schedules allow which is quite

rare to be honest. We try and schedule date nights with like the three of us all together. It's the same as monogamy essentially it's just not monogamous. More later about the experiences of being in a consensual relationship with more than one partner. And following in the footsteps of Celeste, Sam Smith and Adele will hear from 20-year-old Griff, who's just won the Brits Rising Star Award. But first, it's been a busy week for policies that protect the planet. On Tuesday,

Environment Secretary George Eustace announced a range of measures, including banning the sale of peat to gardeners by 2024, a tripling of tree planting, and the creation of a new task force charged with reversing the loss of species diversity. And in the week ahead, the much delayed Environment Bill will be discussed in the Commons to fine-tune the details of the rules the UK will follow now we've left the EU. And as of yesterday, single-use plastic bags in England are now charged at 10p. Since they became 5p, there's been a 95% decrease in their use. But a report by the Co-op shows that by removing single-use bags in their stores and others, there's been a massive surge in more plastic heavy bags for life.

And the total amount of plastic now being put onto the market has jumped by 440%. So is the policy working? Emma asked Environment Minister Rebecca Powell. I would say that our policy is definitely working. There was something like just over 7 billion single-use plastic bags being used before we got the 5p charging. And at that time, on average, a person was taking home 140 bags a year, and that's rocketed downwards to four. And yes, some people are using bags for life. But remember, the bags for life, once they they wear out they are returnable to your store so uh and they do last much much longer and it's you know it's up to us to make sure that they last

but also other kinds of i'm telling you i'm telling you how they're being used though data suggests people many cases are using bags for life as single use bags because they're the cheapest thing available once single useuse bags are removed. Well, our data isn't showing that. But what I would say is the reason why we're upping the charge to 10p is because we did have a phenomenal difference when we put the 5p charge on in terms of the amount of single-use plastic bags being used.

We believe that if we put it up to 10p and then extend it to all shops, because actually it was only applied in supermarkets initially, now it's going to go to all the small and medium-sized shops. You know, I whip up to my wonderful local butcher and he'll always offer me a single-use plastic bag, but luckily I always have my Willow Somerset basket. But not everybody's the environment minister, are they? I mean, this is the point. There's data showing, and you don't include this in your data, which is actually one of my questions, but that the average of 50 to 60 bags for life per family are being reported.

I suppose, Rebecca, what I'm saying is you've talked so ambitiously and with such hope about what this government can do for the environment. Why don't you just seize the day and ban plastic bags and offer compostable alternatives? But I will. I'm going to take you up on your issue about the bags for life. We've done our research and our research. We've done a lot of consultation on this. I haven't looked at the co-op survey, but I'm very happy to look at it.

And our consultation and all the work we've done definitely shows that the number of bags in total use will rocket downwards, definitely by 21%, but probably a great deal more. But the point is the 10p charge should tackle those bags being used in the small and medium-sized shops. That's still 80% of bags. That's still about 3 billion bags. So we definitely believe our measure will make a difference. And what I'm saying also, there are lots of different types of bags we could all use. And they don't just have to be what you call bags for life. But we are also going to look at the bags for life. We're going to do a whole review of this in a few years' time.

And then we will, if we need to ban bags for life, we will. And also we will then, at the moment, they're not required to record the numbers of bags for life that are handed out. We could request and ask that that data is also recorded. So it's all about evidence. Well, that's what I mean about including that figure. Our main aim is to cut the use of plastic.

And the measures we've already brought in, I would say, for example, really bad cotton bud stirrers, plastic straws, microbeads in care and care products and cosmetics. So everything we're doing is moving in that direction of cutting down the use of plastic.

And you said, why don't we ban them, the plastic bags altogether? Well, actually, because all of our consultations showed we consulted widely in 2019 that there's still a place for the spontaneous uh bag and there's still some need so so we're loath to ban it all together and there wasn't actually in all of our research that we did and the research we did with the charity wrap there wasn't a desire for that. Let's talk about where plastic is going, our plastic specifically. We learned on Monday that over half of the UK's plastic waste is being sent overseas, much of it to Turkey.

Your party's 2019 manifesto said, we'll continue to lead the world in tackling plastics pollution, both in the UK and internationally. So now we can't send it off to China. We're sending most of it, it seems, to Turkey. How did it feel seeing those images of our plastic on Turkey's shores? Well, we are absolutely committed to banning export of plastic to what we call non-OECD countries.

That is in our manifesto and we will be bringing that forward. We are also working really hard to tackle this export of plastic waste from our country. In fact, everything we're doing is massive measures in the Environment Bill to cut waste down right down anyway. And that includes tackling plastic particularly because that is our biggest littered and wasted item. And so in the environment bill, we are bringing three measures that will have far tougher controls on waste exports. And we will also bring in mandatory electronic waste tracking because a lot of the waste that gets exported is actually illegally exported. We actually have really strict controls on our waste export.

We've got a holy thos in our waste and resources strategy moving towards less waste altogether. We want got a holy thos in our waste and resources strategy, moving towards less waste altogether. We want only 10% landfill by 2025. So there will be less waste. When will we stop seeing our waste, legally or illegally, because that's what you're in charge of, ensuring the law is followed, as well as the law being what it is? When will we see that change? When will we not see packs of our baby wipes from supermarkets on Turkey's shores? Well, baby wipes is another whole issue, but baby wipes... No, the packet. I'm looking at the images that we've seen in Turkey.

There are big issues. When will we not see that? We are absolutely cracking down on the illegal export of waste. And in the environment, which is going through Parliament right now, it will receive royal assent in the autumn. So very quickly, we'll be able to take much tougher controls on waste exports and we'll be able to bring in this mandatory electronic waste tracking. So the bill will receive royal assent this year and these measures are all in that bill. So we absolutely mean business on tackling waste. And I would say we are actually world leaders on what we're doing on waste.

We're bringing through a plastic tax, which will mean that any product that doesn't, plastic product that doesn't contain 30% recycled material will have a tax put on it. We're bringing forward, and we're consulting right now on a deposit return scheme for single-use drinks containers. We're bringing forward consistent collections, which will mean that we can consistently collect the plastic so that we can reuse it much more easily. We've already brought in all those brands I named to you.

And we're also introducing what's called an extended producer responsibility scheme. It's tackling plastic first, so that anyone that makes something out of plastic will have to think about its whole life cycle and where it's going, and they'll be responsible for it. All of these things will reduce anything we need to export. Rather than just continuing to list, although it's very important to hear what the government is doing, you're not new. The Conservatives have been in power for more than a decade, and these are laudable aims. But I wanted to get to some of the issue with this, which is

how much power your department actually has, and some of the contradictions. Because of course, the government is under huge pressure post pandemic, post Brexit to support the economy and encourage growth. If I give you just a couple of examples, but I've actually got many more. The Environment Secretary George Eustice announces a massive tree planting project, a series of them. But the Department for Transport are overseeing the felling of ancient woodland for HS2. The Chancellor is investing £27 billion in road building, while the Prime Minister announces reducing carbon emissions by 78% by 2035.

Who's going to win? The environment side of your cabinet or the Prime Minister and the post-Brexit pressures? Emma, I think you've got that completely wrong. If you look at what we're doing across government, the whole issue of sustainability and a sustainable future is absolutely centre stage now. Rightly so. I'm really pleased. You know, we need to do it.

And everything we do is towards after the pandemic, which has obviously been devastating, is for a green recovery, for green jobs and green skills. So we are working across all departments on a sustainability issue because we've made our commitments to net zero. They're across government. I don't understand. Rebecca, how on earth does commissioning a new coal mine in Cumbria in 2021 that was not blocked by the community secretary, and now I know it's the subject of an inquiry, but that's not because of this government. That's because of environmentalists coming together. How on earth did the UK's what would have been first new deep coal mine in 30

years, which also happens to be in a red wall seat that the Conservatives won from Labour, how on earth did that get through? Well, as you know, that's been called in, and I can't comment on planning issues, but we have made a commitment to phase out fossil fuel. You know that. By commissioning a coal mine. I think what this demonstrates as well, Emma, is how complicated these issues are. The environment has to be at the top of the agenda because without a sustainable future and a stable planet, we have no future. This government, and you keep saying stop listing the measures, you have to get the policies in place to drive us in that direction. No, no, no. I can't have a list because we're not going to have a conversation. But also, Emma, we're bringing in, and you do touch on some interesting points about

building infrastructure and so on, but we are also introducing biodiversity net gain. This will be coming in within the next year. So every development that happens, we'll have to put back 10% more nature than was there before they started. Well, I think that's absolutely the right way we should be going. We're working to build nature recovery networks across the country. And we have yesterday announced we're going to have a legally binding target on restoring nature. Rebecca Powers, the Environment Minister, I'm not asking you to comment on planning. I'm asking for what you think. Should a new coal mine go ahead?

I'm not going to comment on planning and I'm going to stand by the fact that we're phasing out fossil fuels. That was Emma speaking with Environment Minister Rebecca Powell. Now, a TV comedy series featuring funny and bold Muslim women, a rarity you might say on our screens. Well, We Are Lady Parts addresses just that right in its face. It's a new six-part comedy series for Channel 4. It follows the highs and lows of the female punk band Lady Parts, as seen through the eyes of microbiology student Amina Hussain, who's on the lookout for love and romance and is recruited as the unlikely lead guitarist.

It features new punk songs and stars Anjana Vasan as Amina, and the series is written by Nida Manzoor, and We Are Lady Parts is broadcast on Channel 4 at 10pm on Thursday nights. Here is Amina joining up with the rest of the band for the first time. Lyrics and chords all there. Let's do Voldemort Under My Headscarf.

Oh, sorry, sorry. Did you say Voldemort Under My Headscarf. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Did you say Voldemort under my headscarf? Yeah. You got a problem with my lyrics? Your lyrics? No. No. Not at all. I get it. It's just... I'm not sure people will get it.

What do you mean? I don't know. Some people might find it offensive. Okay, so maybe instead of Voldemort under my headscarf, you could do I love to wear my headscarf, you know, less more. I don't know. Yeah, maybe. I love to wear my headscarf. The lyrics! With my lyrics! She's dead! I started by asking Nidha why she wanted to write it. It came from a place of frustration when I was working as a new writer and I was always being asked to write narratives about Muslim women

as being oppressed or victims, lacking agency. And I really wanted to actually push against that and write about the women that I know and the women that I love um and that's really where the idea of the show was born um I wanted to bring in my passion for music and I wanted to write a show that celebrates Muslim women for you know all the different ways that they can be. There is no one size fits all. And that's really what the show, I hope, is doing. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's just a brilliant TV series, full stop. It just happens to have a lot of Muslim women in it. And you're watching it and you're like, yeah, of course, this is on TV. But you just don't see

representation of Muslim women like that, do you? And what was the reaction you got when you pitched it? You know, I did a lot of work beforehand, building a really sort of dense pitch document, sort of explaining the show, character breakdowns. And it really helped me, that document, to find the right people to make the show with. So, Surianne Fletcher-Jones at working title just immediately went for it because i think she could see my passion and my kind of the place where it was coming from the kind of authentic place that it was coming from and the women that i was so desperate to see on the screen and you know it was great channel four were really excited about it because i think they responded not only to the sort of the new point of view but but also the comedy. And that's what I was really excited about,

to show Muslim women as funny, as joyful. Yeah, and having a good time. And naughty, more importantly. Why do you think it's not being shown before now? Why have we had such a one-sided, stereotypical, myopic view of Muslim women on screen? That's a question I've thought about a lot and I really don't know.

It's been something that I've felt so frustrated about but I feel so lucky to be creating art now where it feels like the doors are opening up and we're getting new stories from sort of marginalized voices and I feel like it's such an exciting time to create art. And I just really hope that this isn't just a kind of a one-time fad thing, that this is, you know, lasting change and there are more voices can come through

and really add richness to the landscape. Yeah, I know, definitely. Well, I mean, I'm already waiting for the second series. How much of it is based on your own life? Are you a bit of a punk? You know, I'm very much more like Amina's character. I was sort of folk obsessed, Paul Simon obsessive. My older sister actually was the punk in the family.

She was into all kinds of like raucous music. She was very much an inspiration. So I did get to draw a lot from my life which was very cathartic but I also was wanting to celebrate the sort of artists and creatives and Muslim and non-Muslim people of colour that I was seeing around me who were expressing the fullness of their identities and that also was exciting for me to bring to the screen. I'm going to bring in the lead guitarist of the band, Amina, played by the brilliant Anjana Vasan.

I mean, you also, Anjana, first of all, what a gift of a character to play. How much did you enjoy playing her? Yeah, it was a gift of a part. I never knew a character of a brown nerd who was, like me, an obsessive over country and Western music, that part would exist. So just to get to play it and

then the fact that the show is so funny I think if we saw one of these characters on a tv show it would feel refreshing but in this show there are so many and I think that was what really impressed me about um you know Nida's creation and like you said I, it's almost like, Anjana, I know you are a country singer, folk singer. It's like the role was written for you. I know. There was a lot of reasons why I felt like I had to say yes. I mean, even as a person, I felt like a real connection to Amina. You know, she's got this low level anxiety at all times. And there's definitely like an older, younger version of myself that I really connect it to. Oh yeah, and it's just joyful to watch. Like it's so brilliant. As I keep saying,

I've said it about a million times. Nida, how important was it for you? Because you do have a whole range of characters. You've got nerdy hijabis, you've got really straight, kind of quite religious young women. You've got the real rebellious ones. You've got girls in full niqab, in hijab, no headscarf. You've got parents who are, you know, embarrassing

as all parents are. The mother who is amazing, Amina's mother, is just a brilliant character who I've not seen on British television like that. Was it important for you to represent the many, many, many different faces of Muslim women? That's such an interesting question. What I realised and what I was trying to connect to was trying to represent the women I know and I've seen around me. I definitely wanted to show a myriad of different ways of being, but I still think, you know, I'm still capturing a very small glimpse of what that can be. There's so many diverse, different kinds of women out there.

But I was really excited to show Muslim women who could disagree with each other, but none of them is having a crisis of faith. It's just the truth of how we are as human beings. And Anjana, what was it like being on set, surrounded by that army of brilliant talents, and, you know, reading you know reading Nida's words out yeah everyone was just very excited to be on set I felt like every day was just there was just so much joy and so much love I I love being part of a show that had women at the forefront and it was about sisterhood fundamentally I think when we see Amina's journey in the beginning you think that this is about you know I, I mean, she is on

the pursuit of love. But I think the real love affair is, is the love of like friendship and sisterhood. And I think that's so refreshing. And I think that sort of translated to the energy on set. It was I think we're all still very obsessed over each other. And I think it's a friendship that's going to last for a long time. It's an experience that I will never forget. Anjana Vasan and Nida Manzoor are talking about We Are Lady Parts. Now, if I were to ask you if you were ENM or poly, would you have the foggiest what I was on about? Well, these are the shorthand ways of describing people

who identify as ethically non-monogamous and polyamorous. People who are involved in or are looking for open or non-monogamous relationships with more than one partner. These phrases are becoming increasingly common as options or descriptions on dating sites. We hear from Bronwyn Jacqueline, but first of all, Madeline, about how she would describe her relationship. I'm in a non-monogamous triad. We are an open triad. There are some people I know who are in kind of like closed relationships which function basically as a monogamous couple would but there's more than two people in it and so we're in an open triad we're polyamorous but I also use

ethically non-monogamous as a kind of descriptor for myself and I have a male and a female partner is this what we also have heard referred to as a throuple? Yeah. You just don't like that word? We really hate it. Normally I just kind of refer to my partners kind of plural and let people make their own assumptions. So tell us who you live with and how it works. I live with my male partner. The structure of the relationship is basically that I'm dating both of them and then they're dating. And then we also kind of, you know, we have a relationship, the three of us as well. So it's sort of like four relationships,

which sounds quite complicated and it can get quite a lot of hard work. So obviously it's worth it. Your girlfriend doesn't live with you, but you live with your- No, she doesn't. The boyfriend part of this. But you are as a three and that works how?

It works as if I was dating one person I'm just dating two really yeah you know we schedule date nights with each other we schedule date nights with our girlfriend when schedules allow which is quite rare to be honest we try and schedule date nights with like the three of us all together you know or you know plan trips or whatever I think the biggest like misunderstanding that I kind of hear people think it's that like non-monogamy is like really like weird or out there or different for me for us anyway it's the same as monogamy essentially it's just not monogamous but it's no different to kind of any other relationship in that sense it sounds like quite a lot of scheduling and conversations as well as everything

else yeah there's a lot of jokes in the sort of polyam community about how it's just shared calendars and communication well that's it there's got to be something else going on there as well, which we'll get to in a minute. Bronwyn, you're practicing solo polyamory, which sounds like an oxymoron, but tell us more. How does that work? I am open to having multiple committed, loving, long-term relationships, but I'm not open to living with a partner or sharing finances or getting married having children and what that means is that it's the benefit to me and my relationships is having that autonomy enhances both my relationship with myself and with my partners. So you have

relationships with lots of different people several different people I'm trying to understand what the difference is between being single and seeing a few different people at the same time and what you're doing. Well, it's less about seeing and more about having actual invested relationships. So it's not like dating around. It's more about, you know, being actually invested in those relationships, but not living with those people. And why did you get drawn to this? Why did you want to do it? I came out of a relatively monogamous married relationship about two-ish years ago and really relished kind of having that space after having cohabited with a partner for about nine years. Really relished that space and autonomy and felt like this was something that I wanted to have in my life moving forward. Let's bring Jacqueline into this. Like Bronwyn, you and your husband had been monogamous previously. How did you first have this conversation? Who started it?

It was me. And you'll find in the polyamorous community, it's often the women that bring up the notion of polyamory um looking back my orientation had always been polyamorous and having the ability to love more than one I didn't talk about it it didn't seem to be the thing that you do. So I got married and I got a phone call from an old flame from many years ago. We met for a drink and the energy was there. And I came home and told my husband and we unpicked it. How can we do this? And we started to get books such as The Ethical Slut

and started the journey. So what's the status now? Do you have someone else? Does he have someone else? My husband and I live together. We date separately. We have other partners, but we prefer something that's called kitchen table,

which basically means my partners, his partners, we've actually got our own friendships. It's fairly transparent. So just to be clear, what was different about our first guest on this, about Madeleine, is you do not engage as a threesome. No. You go off and have your own relationships. We have our own separate relationships.

And I was wondering for people listening who have had someone had an affair, you know, what they make of this, because I suppose for a lot of people, they couldn't handle this because jealousy is an innate part of so many of us. You know, we'd like it not to be. What's your view of that being and this arrangement potentially being a better one than the lots of people who find themselves, the divorce courts or separating. I wouldn't say this love style is a better love style. It's a different love style. Monogamous relationships add value too. Jealousy is a real thing. What polyamory does encourage you to do is unpick and actually learn where the jealousy is coming from. And it's not

often from that situation. It's from a place of fear, fear of being abandoned. You've got children, haven't you? Yes. Do they know? Yes. How did you have that conversation? I've got three sons. They're young adults. I've always raised them to celebrate diversity. My oldest son is an LGBTQ youth worker. So we've always had a very open family home. I did have the conversation. It was,

yeah, whatever, mum, the millennials, the younger, it actually feels quite comfortable and normal. So do you think, let's bring Madeleine back into this, do you think we can normalise it though? it actually feels quite comfortable and normal. Let's bring Madeleine back into this. Do you think we can normalise it, though? Because I've just received a message, Madeleine, which has said, you know, we've had to hide this from everyone around us because there is such a taboo and social stigma. Madeleine, what do you make of that?

I think there definitely is a lot of social stigma and a lot of just misinformation and ignorance out there. Coming on this programme was quite interesting for me because I told my mum and she was not particularly happy about it. You hadn't told her before? No, she knew that I was polyamorous. When I told her I was coming on this programme, she was extremely worried about who was going to hear it. And it's kind of... Sorry, I thought we'd forced a conversation there that you hadn't yet had.

Because that's one way for people to find out about your relationship status, to come on women's hour. Go on. No, don't worry. You know, my generation and people younger than me, definitely there's a lot of openness and there's a lot more kind of understanding and kind of a willingness to understand.

Madeleine, Bronwyn and Jacqueline there, making it all very clear. Sabbat tweeted in to say, if everyone is in agreement and it's all consensual, then what's the harm? More power to them. And Annabelle, not her real name, has been in touch to say, my husband and I have been in a happy and developing open relationship for almost 18 years. We currently each have separate partners and some shared lovers. It's all out in the open and very fulfilling. It does require really good communication, but we feel like we have to live a double life and keep it from our children

and vanilla friends for fear of judgment and worse. I'm sure we would be ostracized. As much as some parts of society are more accepting of this lifestyle, polyamory still very badly viewed by the majority. We have a really strong community of friends in our poly community who are vital for our successful open relationships. If you would like to get in touch with us about anything you heard in the programme, we'd love to hear your thoughts. And indeed, if there's any stories you'd like us to cover on Woman's Hour, then email us via our website or contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. And if you can't wait for the next Woman's Hour, then you can go back to BBC Sounds and listen to all the programmes from the week just gone.

Now, the police have been accused of institutional racism before. Now they're being accused of institutional sexism, particularly when it comes to handling reports of domestic abuse carried out by their own officers. Nearly 100 more women have come forward since a super complaint about this was lodged by the Centre for Women's Justice, a charity campaigning to end violence against women in March last year.

A significant number of those are policewomen themselves in relationships with other officers. The College of Policing, which is leading on dealing with the complaint, says its investigation will not be complete until the end of the year. One of those awaiting the outcome is Amy, whose case was included in the original super complaint. She isn't a police officer herself, but was married to one. It's not her real name for obvious reasons, but she told us what happened. We would throw things around. He'd call me names, track me places on my phone. He'd throw my clothes out if he didn't like them. I put it down to sort of immaturity,

but I fell pregnant and he joined the police force in the same month. And that's when things really escalated from there. What happened after the baby was born? I ended up spending a week in hospital with an infection and he used the time that I was in hospital to sell my car and use the £3,000 deposit for his own car. He sort of made it out to be something he'd done to help us, you know, we've got a baby so now we need a bigger car. He didn't want me to go back to work which caused me to feel even more sort of trapped. He would

always threaten me, you know, I'm a police officer, I can do what I want but once I had the baby he had something new to threaten me with which was my child so if you don't do what I want I can have her taken away I can tell people you're crazy you'll never see her again I'm a police officer nobody's going to believe you. It sounds incredibly difficult to cope with especially at that time of your life becoming a new mother but I suppose what the theme seems to be in some of what you're saying there is that he was using his authority as a police officer. Yes, definitely. And did that make you feel, you know, of course, we know that so many people can't come forward when in this situation for lots of reasons, not least you're meant to be in a relationship with someone and trust them and love them. And it's so hard to speak out and the fear factor as well.

But did that add a layer of it seemed impossible to get out of this, to talk to anyone? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, he would never sort of let me attend appointments by myself. So there was never an opportunity to tell anybody what was happening at home. You know, there was a few instances where, you know, if I didn't come home at a particular time, he'd lock the house and I would have to sleep in the garage. So I can remember being about eight months pregnant and like making a bed out of sort of dust sheets and curtains so I could sleep in the garage at night. And at one point you found out that he was overdosing you.

Yes, that's right. So I started showing some quite obvious signs of mental health difficulties I've been to my GP and given antidepressants and something to help me sleep but he would always attend those appointments with me so there was you know there was never an opportunity to say what was happening I could only sort of express the the way that I was feeling at the time and because I had a new baby I was referred to social services and they put him in charge of my medication. And I went for a blood test, which showed that I had really high levels of this particular medication in my system. And I said, you know, I'm taking them as he's given them to me. He gives me the eight a day. And then if I get upset at nighttime, he gives me the other four.

And it turned out I was supposed to take two not 12 um and he said he made a mistake he hadn't understood the instructions properly and it was probably because you know he was so stressed trying to look after me and social services were so empathetic with him and you know you must be exhausted trying to look after your wife and would you would you like a referral to a support group? And would you like counselling? And it just set off no alarm bells whatsoever. And then when we left in the car on the way home, he said to me,

well, I'll have to think of something else to keep you quiet now then, won't I? What was it for you that made you split, that made you come away from this? There was an incident. He actually handcuffed me to the banister of our house and he left me there all night when he went on night shift. And I can't actually remember what it was that I'd done wrong, but I can just remember that our daughter was crying in her cot and she could see me on the banister,

but I couldn't get to her because I was I was tied up and she spent most of the night crying and wanting her mum because as a six-month baby you want a bottle and you want your mum's comfort and she could see me and I couldn't get to her uh I did become suicidal and I went to a local bridge I was pulled off the bridge by the police who turned out to be his colleagues. I told them what was happening. I begged them not to take me back. I thought maybe, you know,

surely you've got to take me to a place of safety now. Maybe I'm going to get some help. And then they realised who my husband was and they put me in the police car and they drove me home to him and they told him what had happened and I can remember him shaking my hands and saying oh it's all right cheers for that lads I'll sort her out from here and that was it there was no onward referral there was no support and

of course he was furious because now now I'd shown him up in front of his colleagues now I'd embarrassed him so then the abuse got worse again and eventually I did think I can't I have to get out of this I can't cope with this anymore I have to I have to leave. You went to the Independent Police Complaints Commission is that because you just felt you couldn't go to the police around you? Well, I did. I did go to the police. I went to a station and I told them what was happening and that I wanted it to stop. Because by this point he was turning up in the night and pressuring me for sex. And there was a lot of sexual abuse started. I was crying when I went to the police station and the officer left the room to get some tissues. But I could hear him on the radio in the next room

talking to someone, I think it was a sergeant, and he was saying, I don't think she smells a drink, but I'll get a bit closer and smell and I'll ask her about drugs. And then there was a discussion he had about how they were going to find out who my GP was to ask if I had the mental capacity

to be making these accusations. And I'm sat there in the next room hearing all this thinking you haven't even taken my statement yet you haven't asked me any questions my husband was right you don't believe me so the following day officers came from the rape unit they were involved by then they made it very clear to me that if I wanted to prosecute I'd have to go to court I'd have to go to court against a police officer that he could lose his job how are you going to pay for your child if your husband's unemployed and he can't play child maintenance I said I didn't want to prosecute I just I just wanted it to stop and they said we'll take a

statement and we'll deal with it internally. And someone will get back to you. But nobody ever did get back to me. And then what happened? So I had a book of evidence because I was keeping a note of dates and times and witnesses for certain things. And about a fortnight after I left the team, I contacted them and said, I haven't heard from you. And I've just realized all this evidence is still sat here. You haven't looked at it. You haven't asked for it. You want this evidence?

You know, you said you said you wanted it. So they said, OK, we'll send someone out. So two colleagues came out from the station where my husband worked. That evidence was taken to the station part of it were never seen again the statement that I'd made no longer exists it wasn't scanned onto a computer anywhere the paper copy went missing from the warehouse where the records are kept so all the evidence was gone and now of course I'd reported it and he got away with it so that seemed to give him even more confidence that he could do what he wanted I changed the locks I changed the locks on the house for example because he was turning up in the night and so he just broke in so I called 999 and said he's

breaking into the house the back doors would be you know the glass was smashing please can you come and help me and they said it's a civil matter and we're not going to come. So that was the point where I went to the IPCC and they unfortunately didn't do anything. If you have an issue with the police force, in the majority of cases, the IPCC refer that complaint back to the police force so that they can investigate themselves which doesn't make any sense and this and this leads us to the super complaint do you have faith in this super complaint making a change to the police having gone through this my i mean i have no confidence in the police now whatsoever so i sleep with a hammer under my bed because I don't think if I'm burgled in the night the police will come to help me my ex-husband and his colleagues they all still work in the local

area so for me I feel like it's actually dangerous for me to ever ring 999 because if they attend I'm putting myself at risk I hope that things will change you know that the police have to accept that there are officers who are not working just to serve and protect. I'm not saying that they're all bad, but people of a certain abusive personality type are attracted to positions of authority like the police. So fascinating.

And if you'd like to listen back to Wednesday's edition on BBC Sounds, you can hear more about this from the Centre of Women's Justice and the reaction of former Chief Constable of Nottinghamshire Police Force Susanna Fish. And the National Police Chiefs Council said in a statement, whilst the vast majority of officers work hard to protect victims and bring offenders to justice, we know that abusers can seek professions affording them power and control. This is not unique to policing, but because of the unique power afforded to officers, we do take any allegation of abuse against an officer very seriously.

Officers will face criminal investigation and likely dismissal if the case is proven. Good officers are disgusted by the very small number who abuse a partner or family member and will want to see justice done. With the College of Policing, we have developed guidelines for forces to deal with this. Now, infertility can have a huge impact on our relationships, families and self-image. Listener Clementine Baig was diagnosed with primary ovarian insufficiency last year and

got in touch with Woman's Hour to tell us about her experiences. Podcaster Nonnie Martins, whose husband was diagnosed with male fertility in 2019, also joined me to discuss infertility. But I began by asking Clementine about her diagnosis. At the age of 33, whilst trying for a baby, I was diagnosed with premature ovarian insufficiency. So it's also known as premature menopause. And I think the important thing to know about infertility is it always comes with something. So my journey was about five months in length.

I spoke to five specialists and I got a very concrete, you know, it's likely that it could be zero to one percent the chances of you having a baby naturally by a professor so I'm kind of grateful that it didn't take years and years and I really feel for women that kind of are on those journeys because it's incredibly difficult but something that came out of it for me was I actually feel more confident than ever which is not something that I expected it actually has given me the confidence to launch a business to help other women in the fertility space called Mabel. So we give care to women who are trying to conceive and women that are in the postpartum stages of motherhood as well. And why did you want to set that up? Because I'm really fortunate that I have a huge medical family.

So whilst you're navigating something like infertility, which is so layered, if you are a woman of colour, there may be cultural pressures or there may be cultural pressures without being a woman of colour, but I think that's something that Nancy will address. Having somebody to give you a steer give you some advice give you kind of concrete information and even practical next steps to go to your follow-up appointment with was a true blessing and that came from my family so that's what we're creating with Mabel we're giving you the opportunity to speak to um a UK registered nurse or midwife who can give you

practical tips who can listen to you talk about the emotions of struggling to conceive and we're just really excited to empower more women by providing this service. I'm going to bring Nonny in here your husband was diagnosed with male factor infertility in 2019 what did that do for your relationship how did what was the reaction to that? On the day we went to the clinic it was I was quite nervous like I couldn't breathe before we got there. And we were waiting to go in. And when we went in, before we went in, I said to him, it doesn't matter what happens. I still love you and we will still be a family.

And I wanted him to know that because I wasn't sure how he was going to take it. But when we got the word, the news, a part of him wasn't really surprised because he was a dialysis patient for about 10 years at that time and he was more sort of solution-based but I was quite worried that he was going to internalize it on top of all the dialysis and his kidneys failing I just thought this is another blow for him and I was quite concerned about how he would take it but luckily he's been quite fine and we were quite solution-based and we found out we needed IVF. So we just sort of went head on with what we needed to do because we know that we want to have a family and that didn't change anything for us. Clementine mentioned specific cultural

differences. What do you think she meant there? I'm always a bit conscious about saying this, but I think as a woman of colour and being African as well, I do think that the cultural implications of infertility are quite heightened for us, because especially as a black woman, like, you know, motherhood is a big part of our identity. You are raised to kind of be a mother, even from quite young. And so it was true for me as well. And so when you get to this point where you're trying to have a child and it's not working it can mess with your head a little bit because that's that's what you've been literally raised to do and then that's not happening you sort of think well who am I beyond that and you have to start to have those conversations with yourself why do you feel nervous about talking about it

all women feel the same way you know and that's the thing but I do think it is heightened and even just in conversations I've had with other people and I've lived both in Zimbabwe and the UK I've seen how women are treated who are not having children and it's a lot worse than people here so yeah that's why I say that but yeah I think that it's quite a hard thing to swallow when you're not fulfilling what you think or what you've been taught is your purpose and and you know uh adding to your your husband's legacy it's a huge part about that especially as a woman of color about bringing your your family uh you know good fortune by bringing children and continuing your husband's legacy there's a big big big focus on that cle Clementine, can you relate to that? I'm mixed race myself. I can't relate to

that directly, but I certainly have brilliant and beautiful friends that have that layer of pressure. You said that you feel more, you feel so empowered now, you've set up this amazing charity, Mabel. But of course, when you're talking about infertility, you might have found out about your own yourself. You aren't able to have children for whatever reason. But then you have to talk to other members of your family, have that conversation with your mother. So how did that go down? It's not straightforward. And there's a lot of competing parts.

So like I say, infertility always comes with something else. So for me, I had to kind of put baby making here and I had to focus on my long-term health and so my family are all medical and they're incredibly supportive in that aspect but if I could give anybody some advice it would be go easy on yourself and go easy on those around you because nobody knows what to say it's it's normally a shock you know um so just go go easy on those around you and what about you nonny you know you do come from a culture where you know, so just go easy on those around you. And what about you, Nonny? You know, you do come from a culture where, you know, the expectation is you become a mother. How was the conversation with your own family?

Yeah, I think I found it quite hard telling my mother. We've had three rounds of IVF and she's always known about all three. I'm not sure I'll tell her the next time because I had to deal with the negative pregnancy test but then also having to now call my mother and say it hasn't worked and that was just the hardest thing I think I've ever done why because she's her joy is also weighted on on that on the idea that I might become pregnant she's waiting for it she wants to be a grandmother she wants to tell everybody she's she's going to be a grandmother and it's just she also wants it in the same way that I want it. And so that blow, as it was hard for me, it was also hard for her.

And because she's of a different generation as well, it's quite hard to explain to her. So she understands it, that it just didn't work. I don't have any answers. I don't know what to tell you. It just did not work. And that's just final. So I had to do a lot of sort of counselling her in the moment where I didn't feel I had the capacity to do that. And so that's why I said I might not tell her the

next time because it's such a weight to carry to tell your loved ones that it didn't work. So what advice would you have for others going through a similar experience? The first thing I will say is to seek help quite soon. I was in denial for two and a half years and we were not going to get pregnant naturally because of the male factor infertility. So I only found that out by the three-year mark of us trying. So the first thing I'd say is after a year of trying naturally and it's not worked, definitely speak to your GP

and find out what's going on. Because it could be something or it could be nothing, but it's better to know. Much like Clementine, I felt quite empowered when we knew what we had to do and I felt quite confident about what we were doing because we knew that and we weren't guessing or you know doing sort of things blind so that's the first thing I'd say but also I think decide how much you want to share with your family you don't feel obligated to share everything but if it helps you to cope with the journey then by all means share. But I

think trying to balance looking after yourself in the process, especially if you're doing IVF, and even if you're not, to be honest, just balancing looking after yourself and the people around you is quite key. Clementine, what advice would you give anyone? I think a real turning point came for me where I had to think, is it motherhood that I'm pursuing or becoming pregnant? And I felt really good after making a decision that we're going to adopt and we're really, really excited about that. Continue to have an honest and open dialogue with yourself. Some days, maybe you're just not feeling that. Hopefully you've got a great support network who can just listen to you. And the last piece of advice would be get a fur baby. We adopted a dog last year and we are so happy. I can completely agree with that.

Now, Vicky emailed in to say, my husband was the infertile person in our journey. I've not told anyone as I felt shame for him as society defined men by their prowess. We've never talked about my view on this and I don't think I realised my position on this until I heard your programme. So I always say, we were infertile.

We have a super daughter now and she knows she's an IVF baby. And Sal got in touch to say, thank you for mentioning adoption in the programme. I thought that your contributor, who said she examined whether it was parenthood or getting pregnant that she was chasing, summed it up really well. In the UK, thousands of children are currently in the care system without a parent to look after them, read to them in the night. Let's make sure all conversations about starting a family include adoption and give these children a chance for a forever family. Now, described as a fierce and distinctive talent,

last week, 20-year-old Griff won the prestigious Brits Rising Star Award following past winners such as Celeste, Sam Smith and Adele. She's in good company. She signed her record contract in the middle of her A-levels, has also been nominated for an Ivor Novello Award. Doesn't it make you feel like you've done nothing with your life? And ended 2020 by singing the soundtrack for Disney's Christmas advert, which garnered 70 million views. As well as producing much of her music, she also makes her own clothes, including her own performance outfit for the Brits. Here she is singing her song Black Hole in a recording she's made

specially for Woman's Hour. I used to break home when my heart used to beat And I wish that you would realise I'm all that you need If I want you like that, no, it's not easy To feel this gut that you left in me Huge congratulations to Griff on her Brit Award, who found out a month ago that she'd won. There wasn't really any celebrations. I just kind of was like, OK, now I've won a Brit. What happens now? But I was still in my bedroom, you know, so. Which is where you've made so much of your music from.

Yeah, yeah. It's where I spent a lot of time this year. Thank you for recording that beautiful song, Black Hole. No, of course. What's it about? I know it's about heartbreak, but what are you writing about there specifically? The lyrics are actually quite like cutting and deep, but I think they're kind of disguised because I put over quite an upbeat, fun pop production. But I guess it's kind of just like when someone leaves your life, there is an emptiness left. It's an emotional state that I think we can all relate to. So that's kind of what it's about. I know that in your piano ballad, Good Stuff, you sing about missing the foster children who passed through your family's home.

How did that impact you growing up having that experience around you my parents started fostering when I was around eight years old so I think I remember being eight years old and it was a reality check because I think I thought it would be like Tracy Beaker and then it happened and then it wasn't and then you're thinking these are real kids who have been through a lot of trauma and are suddenly like taking my mum's attention now and calling my mum mum and stuff like that so I think as an eight-year-old it was like a reality check but then from then on I think it's all that I know and it's been the best thing and I think it's

probably taught me to be one a little less selfless and to just get on with it because there's just always something new happening in the house so even during lockdown I think I've just become used to like screaming kids and crying babies and stuff but it's like it's been a nice atmosphere I think to grow up in yes just keeping with your your family and that as an influence I know your parents are Jamaican and Chinese your grandparents were part of the Windrush generation does that heritage feed into into your musical influences definitely I think my my dad is the Jamaican one and um he's quite musical and I think we were brought up in a lot of black music.

So it was like Stevie Wonder, Mojo Blige, Michael Jackson, Bill Weathers. So a lot of soul, I think. There's a level of emotion that that era of black music has, which I think is probably comes from, you can probably analyse that and see that it comes from trauma and whatever and you express it through music. So I think I definitely connected to that early on. I'm also very struck by how much you do yourself you produce most of it all of it? Yeah I work by myself in my bedroom and produce 100% songs but then I'll also collaborate with people so in the mixtape coming up I think majority of it is just me by myself. But that's quite rare isn't't it? And I know you're keen for women especially to to hear about that. Yeah, it's quite shocking, actually, how in music, and I don't know how much the everyday person is aware of it. But definitely in music as a girl, you go into studio sessions,

and the producer is always a guy, the guy who's making the beat, you know, even as like a young 15 year old going into label meetings and meeting execs,'s always a man so I think in music it still really isn't equal and it's hard to figure out why everyone was always so surprised I was a girl and I produced my songs because I never realized it was such a rarity and then everyone would be like oh she produces all our music you know it's so rare and I couldn't ever understand why there's such a disparity still so what do you think do you think it's what just women or girls when they're coming up not getting the message that you can do it all how did you kind of figure it out for yourself that that has led to you doing this which is different yeah I'm still trying to work it out I think it's about having it there for me it was just accessible like my dad bought my brother

music programming software and so as a kid I just jumped on it and like wanted to sing songs and lay down harmonies on it and then before you know I was teaching myself how to produce so I think girls just aren't exposed to it in the way guys are you know when you think of computer and audio engineering and stuff I think guys typically are just pushed more in that direction then I also think when the industry meets a young talented female because it's men executives I think automatically you go oh this can be sold as a product. So you're going to be an artist. Then you don't ever see girls that are just writers or just producers because they're always then seen as the person who's going to be singing the song because girls still sell. And also you make your own outfits. You know, you've got a whole creative

elements of this, which I just wonder, is that a lot more pressure though, when you're across everything that you're handling the production, how you look and what you write? Yeah, it is. Sometimes I'm like, why have I done this to myself? I've completely shot myself in the foot because suddenly, like when I'm trying to finish a body of work, but then also like make your dresses for your photo shoots and stuff, it's like insane. But then also I think I find it's it's fun and I find like um freedom and I think I'm just a bit of a control freak in it so being in the detail I think has meant that I can really make sure that everything that I put out is authentic and is really coming from me. It must have also been incredibly surreal to be signing record deals doing your A-levels and

kind of finishing up at school how's that been to manage and handle and also with your friends well I always kept music a secret in school I hated talking about it because I was doing studio sessions like in like year 10 year 11 and stuff but I knew how slim the chances were of making it I never wanted to talk about it and everyone go oh cute she sings you know like she's just trying to put up a soundcloud link or something like I knew I if I was going to do it I wanted to properly do it and I thought it was cooler that people found out because I was you know on radio for on women's hour you know, like she's just trying to put up a SoundCloud link or something. Like I knew if I was going to do it, I wanted to properly do it. And I thought it was cooler that people found out because I was, you know, on Radio 4 on Women's Hour, you know, instead of me talking about it like five years ago, trying to make everyone listen to my songs. So I was more just quietly working away while I was doing my A-levels.

And I was like doing an economics lesson in the morning and then travelling into London, doing a studio session, coming back. But it all paid off because then I signed my record deal halfway through sixth form. Griff's new mixtape, love that it's called a mixtape, is one foot in front of the other and it'll be released next month and is available to pre-order now. And she has her first UK tour planned for the autumn.

That's it from me. Join Emma from Monday at 10am. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories Join Emma from Monday at 10am. the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.