Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Welfare Support at Sandhurst, Women Plumbers, Flying with Children

Episode Date: July 15, 2023

In her only broadcast interview, Louise Townsend, the mother of Olivia Perks who took her own life in 2019 whilst at Sandhurst Military Academy, speaks to Woman’s Hour. Louise discusses her view that there was a lack of welfare support from the academy towards her late daughter and what steps need to be taken to ensure it doesn’t happen again.According to the ONS, only 2.4% of plumbers are women. We speak to two female plumbers about why that figure is so low and whether they recommend the job to other women. Sovay Berriman runs the company PlumbMaid and is based in Cornwall, and Lysette Hacking, worked as a plumber for six years before becoming a lecturer in plumbing at Calderdale College in Halifax in Yorkshire.The Supreme Leader of Iran has called for a massive population increase, and the state has been offering financial incentives for women to have more children. There is also now more pressure on women not to access contraception, and abortion has been criminalised further, with a potential prison sentence for women being proposed by the regime. Meanwhile cases of unsafe illegal abortions have increased. The BBC’s Saba Zavarei has been speaking to Iranian women about their experiences.Where do you put your awards and achievements? Do you show them off or keep them all to yourself? We hear from the academic Dr Louise Creechan who keeps hers in her downstairs loo, while the co-host of the Wittering Whitehalls, Hilary Whitehall, has kept her trophy in her handbag.As the holiday season begins, we talk to Jane Dowden and Lucy Cavendish about travelling on planes with small children, and how to deal with tantrums and disgruntled fellow passengers.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lucy Wai Editor: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani, where we bring you the best bits from the week just gone. Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani, where we bring you the best bits from the week just gone. Coming up, as Iran tightens laws on women's choices, we find out how women are coping with the lack of access to abortions. Did you know that only 2.4% of plumbers are women? We hear from two about the joys and the challenges of the job. So I knocked on a customer's door and said, I'm here to change your tap, your landlord sent me.

And the homeowner laughed and shut the door in my face. So I knocked on the door again and said, no, I'm really here, the landlord sent me. And again, he closed the door in my face. And flying with children. How do you handle it? Two mums share their stories of tantrums and disgruntled passengers. But first, in 2019, Olivia Perks, who was 21 at the time, took her own life at Sandhurst Military Academy in Berkshire.

She was training as an officer cadet and was in the last term of a 44-week course. An inquest in May this year concluded that the army missed opportunities to prevent her death and that Olivia fell victim to, and I quote, a complete breakdown in welfare support during her time at the academy. The inquest was told that Olivia felt an overwhelming sense of embarrassment after spending the night in an officer's room after a charity ball five days before her death. A witness spoke of how Olivia had felt like she was on trial as she was questioned about the incident by Sandhurst Academy leaders. Olivia had previously attempted to end her life in the summer of 2018, but was deemed at low risk of trying again as she was legally an adult.

This was not relayed to her family. Olivia's mother, Louise Townsend, believes there was a lack of welfare support put into place to to her family. Olivia's mother, Louise Townsend, believes there was a lack of welfare support put into place to protect her daughter. Louise spoke to Nuala on Woman's Hour for her only broadcast interview and began by describing what Olivia was like. Olivia really was just a normal, regular girl, but she had this enormous sense of adventure and fun, really. And as she was growing up, she developed a passion for sport and it was quite apparent that she gave everything that she did she embarked on it with 100 percent

110 conviction any weakness she demonstrated she countenance with positivity enthusiasm and effort and and fittingly her best friend at Sandhurst described her as the most positive person I knew, perhaps a little too positive. She was really tiny, but a personality completely made up. You absolutely knew when she'd entered the room. Really and truly, she was the type of girl that I always wanted to be and always aspired to be. But she could also be very obstinate, very forthright and incredibly stubborn. But, you know, you paint a picture of her there and this young girl wanted to join the army. You don't come from a military family, though, if I understand correctly.

Were you reticent about it? Were you worried about it? I was very reticent about it. And I did all that I could without her realising to try and sway her from joining the military. But when she was a teenager, she joined Air Cadet and she absolutely loved it. She loved being part of a structured organisation. And she was really proud of being part of that squadron. And so she said quite early on that she wanted to join the military. I really thought it was a phase that it would pass, but it didn't.

But I think as a mum, you try and support your children, don't you? And you try and push all your concerns to one side and try not to burden, you know, try not to burden her with my concerns. So she got into Sandhurst and loved it, right? She adored it. She adored being there. She had the best of time. She made great friends down there. Each time she came home, most times when I had telephone conversations with her, it was, are you OK down there? Are you enjoying it? She absolutely adored being down there. You talk about speaking on the telephone.

I imagine then from that conversation you're telling me that there were no signs that she was struggling. None at all. There's limited contact because they're civilians being turned into soldiers, really. So that's for the first five weeks. But the odd WhatsApp message there confirmed that she was fine. She was enjoying the course, making friends.

The days were long. They were exhausting. There was lots of sleep deprivation, but she knew that, and we knew that that was part of the training experience. She came home. She affirmed to me that things were great she loved it best thing ever once she'd gone back for the rest of her time down there I'd be in regular contact with her I have to say I probably became a nuisance to her because I was I was the one that was sending the messages just checking are you okay things going fine anything that you need, that kind of thing. And the response generally was, I'm fine, I'm busy, I'll talk at the weekends. I had absolutely no indication that there was anything can be said there.

There are things you learned later. There was an incident at what's called the Royal Engineers, which was an event. This was in 2018. How do you understand now what happened? Again, I was completely unaware that anything could happen until after she died. And as investigations proceed and the inquest, we found out more of what had actually happened. But my understanding is that she was about week 10 into her training. The Royal Engineers was her chosen corps. During the day, there were lots of events going on. Then they had a barbecue and it was basically an open bar. At Sandhurst, there's what's known as the two-can rule. Officer cadets are only allowed two cans of alcohol.

But during the inquest, we found out that this really wasn't anything that was stuck to at all. The chain of command admitted that a blind eye was often turned. They drank to excess and then when the bar was drunk dry the whiskies came out so you've got a young very small officer cadet drinking to keep up with everybody. She became ill, clearly extremely drunk. And then she started to act completely out of character, said that she was so happy with this is the best that could ever happen to her. And she was ready to go, saying, just let me go, let me go,

asking to be left so she could wander to the sea. She started to use her hands, apparently we're told, to try and choke herself. But this was with people present. That you didn't know about? Absolutely nothing about. But that incident happened. There was another incident, as we understand it now, at a ball the following year. Do you know what happened there? It's quite a big event on their social calendar, I believe.

Some of the chain of command, some of the directing staff were present at this ball. I think the intention was after the ball, most of the officer cadets would, they'd been allowed to get cabs to go into London and carry on partying. But because it had snowed quite heavily, they couldn't get the cabs. So the parties continued on what's known as the lines, which is where the accommodation block is for the officer cadets. On each line, an office where the directing staff has their office. They're all encouraged to go up to the lines and continue drinking, something that shouldn't have happened,

but the directing staff were part of this group of people encouraging the cadets to continue drinking. She became, along with other officer cadets, extremely drunk. Also, we were aware during the inquest that quite a few of the directing staff were drinking to excess she becomes quite vocal incredibly inebriated so a member of the directing staff who knew what had happened at the engineers event who himself was extremely drunk, went up to her and took her into his office on the lines. We then understand that she missed the parade the following day and on her way out of his accommodation block she ran straight into two senior members of the

chain of command she was interrogated as to where she'd been what had happened at this point i have to say she was still completely under the um under the influence of alcohol and she was completely interrogated and to get an answer as to where she'd been and I think at that point she was the one that was being well she certainly wasn't being treated as any victim she was she was the one being treated as the person responsible for what had happened really. And I know with that one of her friends told the inquest that Olivia had felt like she was on trial as those Sandhurst Academy leaders questioned her about it.

Both Olivia and the more senior male member of staff whose room she was in have denied any sexual activity taking place. I just want to say that to our listeners. And intimate relationships between staff and trainees on or off duty are forbidden at Sandhurst. And a

300 page report into Olivia's death published last year suggested that instructors frequently flouted the rules. There's a lot there that we're talking about, I think, culture-wise. And also, I suppose, whether anybody was watching out for her. I mean, how do you understand it? Well, so if we go back to the events of the Royal Engineers, she was seen by the psychiatry team at the local kind of military hospital, who deemed that she hadn't got any mental condition as such. And they felt that she did present herself harming, but that she wasn't particularly under any risk or any suicidal risk

because she was in front of other people. So she was no more at risk of harming herself than anybody else and therefore she should go back into training, but she'd be monitored and welfare should be put in place. She was disciplined for being drunk and then effectively self-harming. So from really week 11 she felt, I guess under the cosh really, because she was under this, in her eyes, quite a big disciplinary question mark yeah so no no support was offered to her whatsoever and then we get to the um aftermath of the ball where she's in quite a distressed

state if someone had actually said even morally had just said, looking at this young person who is so distressed by this interrogation effectively that she's under, that actually let's just stop morally. Let's just stop. Let's just get her to somewhere that's safe, where she can decompress. They have a unit on site called Lucknow, which is effectively the medical centre. If she'd been sent there, I really don't feel, and I think this was supported by the coroner, I don't really think we would have been where we are at now. I don't think it would have got to the point of the 6th of February when she decided that there was no other alternative to take her own life. I think she just felt that that was it.

Her entire military career was over. Effectively for her, her life was over because she'd spent a quarter of her life getting to this point, getting to this wonderful place, as she felt. And I think she felt that there was no other alternative than to do what she did. Which is so sad. And there has been the inquest as we talk about what steps do you want sanders to take to ensure something like this doesn't happen again they need to actually look at the culture to change you know and i think recommendations have been put in place and i believe that there is now a vast improvement

on what's happening now as to when Liv was at Sandhurst. But I don't think change is alone. We'll change just the toxic culture, because it is embedded, really, you know, armed forces. And a lot of work needs to be done to change that culture and really bring the army into the 21st century. And I really, really hope that they do drive forward with these changes so that they can promote a culture that supports and nurtures

the wellbeing of young officer cadets. That's a journey that I think, as her mum, I would like to be part of, just to witness that the longevity and the event embedding of the recommendations are really seen through. I really feel that the army in phase one training establishments which Sandhurst is that it should be dry. As it stands at the moment phase one establishments they they have a completely um zero tolerance to alcohol alcohol is not allowed on site but on sandhurst it is and when we've questioned that it's the answer is well most of our cohorts come from universities so

we can't really we can't prevent them drinking but we are keeping it under review kind of thing. And I think they need to look at relationships. And I would hope that they will learn from what's happened to Olivia. And they absolutely ensure that they have effective welfare provision in place for these young officer cadets. The other part in this, so we talk about the alcohol, the relationships, also outside investigations, but nobody was in touch with you during those times that she was struggling.

I know she was 20 years of age, so I know legally she's an adult. Maybe she didn't want them to get in touch with you. I don't know. But what about that part of it? I'm completely devastated by that because and that was a question I asked when we went down the day after finding out that she died and it was presented to me well she'd had a little bit of a wobble at the Royal

Engineers and I asked the question at that point well why did no one contact me? And the answer was, as you said, she's an adult. So it was, you know, we couldn't do that. But I really feel that there could have been some way that someone could have contacted me or even made her contact me to say, look, there's an issue here. I need some help. I need some support. Because, you know, I think she's in this incredibly male dominated environment. And I think she just thought, well, she got to man up to things and she got to just get on with things. Had I been told, I would have done my utmost to try and support her and try to get to the root of why she got to where she got to. If someone had contacted me, you know, instantly I would have been down there, instantly. She probably wouldn't have

wanted me to, but instantly I'd have been down there trying to help her. I can't imagine what it was like for you and your family because you didn't have an inkling of what was happening when you received that news that she had took her own life. How are you coping now as a family? It's four years on. I don't think I'll ever really come to terms with a loss because we are still utterly devastated, and particularly knowing that it was completely unnecessary

if the right welfare support had been engaged at the right time. It's really been horrendous. It's been heartbreaking for all of us concerned. We pushed to get the answers. You know, at the beginning of this journey, I think some of the responses I was getting to my questions was very much oh she was mentally ill that was my perception and I knew that wasn't right and that's why we pushed and we pushed and we pushed we've now got quite a lot of answers to the questions

that we didn't have at the beginning of this journey but it's but we still haven't got her with us and that's devastating I would hope that I can create a positive legacy and in her memory and I hope that changes are being embedded within Sandhurst and the wider military establishments to make sure that young people don't have to go through what she had to go through. Olivia Perk's mother, Louise Townsend. And if you feel affected by anything you heard in that interview, then head to the Women's Hour website where you can find details

on BBC Action Line. And we contacted the Ministry of Defence for a statement. A Major General Zach Stenning Commandant at Royal Military Academy Sandhurst said, We're deeply sorry for the systemic and individual failings within the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst which led to the tragic death of Olivia Perks in February 2019. Much more should and could have been done to support her.

As an organisation, we should have been better. Our officer cadets at Sandhurst now experience vastly improved supervisory care on their journey to become future leaders for our army and the nation. We owe this to Olivia and our people. As the Commandant of Sandhurst, I have promised to commit to a culture of continuous learning to ensure Sandhurst remains a safe and positive training environment for our future leaders. Nothing less is acceptable. With my leadership team and instructors, we will not stop striving to deliver this. And if you'd like to get in touch about any of the stories you hear on the programme, please feel free to get in touch. Our text number is

84844. You can contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can send us an email by going to the website. Now, have you ever spent a fortune on a plumber and thought you would just love to be able to do it yourself? Well, in a moment, we're going to hear from two women who took the plunge and became plumbers themselves. There aren't many women who've opted for the same career as them. According to data from the Office of National Statistics, 15% of the construction industry workforce is

female, which is pretty low. But when you look at plumbers, that figure drops significantly to just 2.4%. So why is that figure so low? And do those already doing the job recommend it to other women? To discuss this, Nuala was joined by Sauve Berryman, who runs the company Plum Made and is based in Cornwall. She trained to be a plumber in her mid-40s. She also spoke to Lisette Hacking. Lisette worked as a plumber for six years before becoming a lecturer in plumbing at Calderdale College in Halifax in Yorkshire. Nuala began by asking Sauve why she decided to train as a plumber. A few things led for me to start training. I'd been an artist for about 20 years and austerity again, funding cuts impacted that.

Also, I live in Kurno, Cornwall, where it can be hard to earn a living. And I wanted to work in an area that could have direct social impact. I'd experienced some terrible plumbing in my own home, flooding, unsafe appliances. And yeah, I kind of thought, hang on a minute. I think I could very likely do better than that. So I looked into training courses at my local FE college. And went to it. And how do you like it? I love it. It's great. It's full of practical problem solving.

It's really fulfilling. People are happy to see you when you turn up. They pay you for the work you do, which is always a bonus. Lisette, what about you? So you're hearing a little bit of Svea's experience there. What was your path? So I did my apprenticeship with my

dad um I got into it really because my dad used to take us at the summer holidays and I really enjoyed it there was something so fulfilling about coming back after a long manual day and you just you feel like you've done a good job and so I really enjoyed it and went down a different path and thought no it's not for me so came back to plumbing when I were 20 did my apprenticeship with my dad he didn't have enough work for the both of us so I ended up being made redundant when I were applying for jobs I was really struggling till I changed my name to L hacking rather than Lissette hacking and that was how I got into education really my other half said well

why don't you go into education and change it from that route make it easier for other women um so did you encounter you obviously encountered sexism with the name um did you encounter it when you were working rarely um there were a few occasions so I knocked on a customer's door and said I'm here to change your tap, your landlord sent me. And the homeowner laughed and shut the door in my face. So I knocked on the door again and said, no, I'm really here, the landlord sent me. And again, he closed the door in my face. So we had to ring the landlord.

He was so apologetic afterwards. And I believe his missus told him off a little bit as well what about that's over have you encountered any challenges like that um yeah not not quite because I'm self-employed and I've been self-employed all the way through kind of people know who they're getting but I have had um situations where um maybe yeah like a male female couple the females invited me to come along to do price up for like a heating system job or whatever and when I get there it's just the guy and he's not uh that welcoming or that convinced that I can do the job and you can you can pick up the vibe and

you just know like that I don't want to do this job actually and you know there's plenty of other customers who really want me to be there. Do you see more is that more women coming in to your courses on plumbing? Yeah definitely so I've been working here a while now and I've seen a steady increase so we've got four or five female students at the moment, two of which are apprentices. But out of how many? Out of 70. So we're still a long way to go, but it's definitely improving. our listeners, you know, did they ever decide just to get trained up in a trade and do it themselves? Do you want to hear some that are coming in? Let me see. Here's Sonia. I've done a two-day plumbing course as I want to be able to change taps. I'm in my 60s. Alison says,

since 2021, I've learned and finished how to mix different types of cement and when to use them, how to lay a damp-proof membrane, lay floor insulation, lay underfloor heating, install an MVHR system. I don't know what that is. Floor tiling and choosing two types of decoupling layer. And what I really learned, many traditional so-called unskilled women's jobs, sewing and cooking are more skilled than most traditional skilled jobs. And also Alison has learned I can do anything. What about that, Lisette? I can see you're smiling I just there's something so empowering about being able to just fix something yourself or you know not having to wait for someone else

to do it for you um I'm starting a women's DIY course at college which is something I've been pushing for for a while um just because I want other people to feel that feeling you've got a dripping tap well you go and fix it. You can do that. There's nothing stopping you. Here's another. As a soon to be 66 year old single lady, I recently mended my constantly running toilet

by looking on YouTube, taking apart the flush pipe work in the cistern, cleaning off the lime scale that had blocked the seal and putting it all back together. And it works. I am so pleased, she says. So, babe, what do you think when you hear these women that have decided to, you know, take the bull by the horns and fix it? I love it. I absolutely love it. Yeah. There's so much information out there like YouTube is full of videos like Mumsnet is full of like practical problem solving it's really satisfying there's a

lot of sort of social dialogue about women being um particularly great at what's called softer skills but i mean women as one of the listeners said there have loads of really practical problem solving abilities and practical school skills. One of my my tagline is good with tools, you know, like love, love using some tools. What about this one? I am a lady decorator and I've been doing this job for the last 10 years. I'm now 60 years old and love the job and intend to continue for as long as I am able. Widows especially like having women as they feel safer and don't like having strange men in the house and I like to chat as I work so it becomes company for them and many say they will miss me when the job is finished. Many of my customers have become friends

and I never need to advertise as I'm always busy. It's a great job if you don't mind hard work and that's from Janet. What about that one Sophie?, I think this is a particular sort of area where having women, not just in plumbing and heating, but in loads of different trades, is these kind of sort of mundane, practical, vital jobs are often understood to be just male dominated areas and there's a whole host of people who do feel more comfortable with a a different gender coming in and doing that work for them um have you found that very much very much i have a range like customers who have perhaps experienced uh domestic violence or all customers who identify as part of like a queer community who feel much more comfortable with a non-traditional trade person coming into the home. Morning, says Kate from Dorset. I am a female electrician. I've been at it for 28 years. I've had a wonderful varied career. I would highly recommend a trade as a career.

What about that, Lizette? Would you recommend it? Definitely. I think when you look at the traditional jobs that women are sort of funnelled into, the minimum wage jobs, the care jobs,

whereas there's this whole avenue of construction that's well paid. It's really rewarding to just do that work and you feel empowered because you've done that. It's something that traditionally you're told you can't do, but absolutely you can. There's nothing that's stopped me so far.

That was Lisette Hacking and Sove Berriman. Still to come on the programme, where do you keep your awards and achievements, whether it's your swimming certificate or PhD? Do you shout about them or keep it all to yourself? We hear from a woman who keeps them all in her downstairs loo. Now, it's been 10 months since widespread protests shook Iran, with women at the forefront trying to reclaim their bodily autonomy in the face of compulsory hijab laws. But what's less well known is that the Islamic Republic have been tightening other laws on women's choices. The Supreme Leader of Iran has called for a massive population increase and the state has been offering financial incentives for women to have more children. There is also now more pressure on women not to access contraception and abortion has been

restricted further with a potential prison sentence for women being proposed by the regime. Meanwhile, cases of unsafe illegal abortions have increased in what Iran's authorities are calling catastrophic statistics, leaving tens of thousands of women in a vulnerable position. To discuss this, I was joined by the BBC's Sabah Savarai, and we'll hear one woman's story from Iran. She'll describe in some detail her experience of having an abortion, which you may find distressing. There are links on our website to support.

I began by asking Sabah how the country's new family law is affecting women's lives. So for many years, the Supreme Leader of Iran has been calling for massive and faster population growth from around 80 million to 150 million, almost double. And there have been some attempts in the past to reduce people's control over their reproduction. But this family

law, which is called rejuvenation of the population and support of the family, is a comprehensive plan. So on one side, it pushes different governmental bodies to provide incentives, such as advantageous terms for car or house purchase, to encourage families to have more children but also it reaches into cultural sphere by banning content any content that promotes any lifestyle rather than traditional family and on billboards on state tv on any official platform women are constantly bombarded with this representation of a good woman to be the perfect, the faithful housewife and mother of many children. So it also has a psychological and mental impact. And this plan also stops distribution of free contraceptives, and it further criminalizes abortion. Now, abortion has never been legal in Iran, in post-revolutionary Iran.

And women can't, I mean, not only they can't go to hospital freely to just ask for help because they know they're going to be refused, but also for the fear of social and legal consequences, they find themselves in extreme loneliness in the whole process. So now we can listen to Mina's story. She's telling us the story of her abortion in Iran from a decade ago. But to my surprise, when I was talking to so many other women with more recent experiences, nothing has changed, nothing has improved. And the stories are very, very much still similar.

Abortion in Iran is not a choice. The government keep tightening the laws, making it even harder for women every day. My own experience of having an abortion in Iran, like so many others, wasn't straightforward or safe. But I know it wasn't as horrific as what many women have to go through. There's so many aspects to this issue. One of them is the lack of proper medical care and support for safe abortion. Then there is the pressure of your own family, finding out you're pregnant, the judgment from people around you, the absence of post-abortion care that you may need, and most importantly, the fear of doing something illegal and the unknown consequences that come with it.

Not to say the experience can have long-lasting physical and mental health effects on you, and not to mention that abortion in Iran is simply not an option for women if they're not married. Finding a decent doctor who's willing to perform a safe abortion is quite difficult. And if you do find one, then they'll charge you an arm and a leg. So abortion in Iran is also heavily class dependent. In my case, when I went for my second abortion, I had no choice but to get pills from the black market through a friend because at the time I couldn't afford it and I couldn't ask money from my own family. Anyway, I got the pills and I had heard that the pills might be fake. And so there is a chance that they might not work.

And that's why I took an extra pill just in case. After waiting for hours, the cramps started and the bleeding began. I felt quite sick, so I ended up in the hospital, but I couldn't really tell the truth because you don't know what to expect from the hospital members. They might want to call the police. They might ask you to call your family. So I lied and said I was having a heavy period. They kept me for a few hours and then they let me go. Obviously, the bleeding didn't stop there, it continued for days

and I was getting weaker and then I had no choice but to see a proper doctor. So I found this midwife in Karaj and I made an appointment. Certain time I couldn't be late otherwise she wouldn't see me again. That was the rule. So I entered this room. It was a basement filled with boxes, like they just moved in. I was on my own because nobody else could be in, and that was the rule. It felt like a scene from a surreal movie, but it was quite real, brutally real.

I walked into the room and she asked me to sit on the bed and open my legs. No further questions asked, not even my name, as there shouldn't be any evidence left behind at that point I knew the place is pretty grim not hygienic at all but that was the least of my worries to be honest I didn't care I just wanted a successful abortion whatever that meant she examined me in silence and she said she needs to perform a vacuum aspiration without any further explanation my whole body was covered in cold sweats but I had no choice but to go with it I was only 22 and the thought of whether I would survive this or not made me shrink my body and she kept asking me to relax. She brought the steel ball and told me it would be better if I looked away. I could already see the vacuum with the metal had attached to it and I kept asking myself was it clean, was it clean?

But I really didn't have a choice. She told me to be quiet, which I did. I had no choice. The pain was the least of my worries at that time. But I really couldn't deny it either. The suction ended and I went home and the bleeding continued. And after a few weeks, I checked and it seems that the abortion had been successful. But this consequences of having an unsafe abortion doesn't end there. After some time the pain persisted and at this stage I decided to see a proper doctor. It was a male gynecologist this time. As soon as he examined me, he asked me if I had an

abortion. And that's when I found out that the suction had caused a wound in my uterus. And he told me this is the consequences of sleeping around with boys. So the cruelty of that moment for a 22 year old was painfully unbearable. It wasn't only physical pain that you have to go through. It wasn't only your life that you were risking. It was the judgment of strangers that you also had to deal with. A month passed and I found out that my best friend was also pregnant. We had no choice but to take her back to the same place I went because there were no other options, no other safe routes available.

But despite all these, I consider myself quite lucky because I had a strong support bubble who cared for me during and after my abortion but I know that there are many many other women that have to go through the horrific experience on their own and in silence. And we heard there from Mina who and a very distressing experience that she had to go through and that happened to her 10 years ago and you're saying nothing's changed? Nothing yeah I've just in the past couple of weeks, I've been interviewing other women who've had to have abortion a week ago, three years ago. And yeah, like shockingly, it's all very similar. But despite the difficulty, Sabah, the number

of unsafe abortions is going up. Why is that? I mean, we heard Mina that she kept saying a couple of times that she had no choice. So I was talking yesterday with an Iranian reproductive rights activism campaigner, and she told me something interesting. She said if a woman decides to terminate her pregnancy, she will find a way, no matter the cost. And I think many might agree with that. So many women have personal reasons. They might feel that they're too young or they're mentally not ready to become a mother, they're studying,

or they're not in a supporting relationship. So these are all like personal reasons that they might have. And they all came up in the interviews that I did with Women Inside Iran. But I had two things very frequently came up in the interviews that I did with Women Inside Iran. But I had two things very, very frequently coming up in the interviews. One of them was financial reasons. So costs of living, very high inflation, precarious jobs, an unstable economy. So women feel that they can't support this potential child financially. And then the other words that came up a lot were hope and

future. So I was told so many times that we don't have a vision about our own future. How can we bring a child to this socio-political atmosphere? And let's not forget that in a short period of widespread protest across Iran Iran just recently, more than 70 children were among those who were killed by the Islamic Republic. So how are the laws changing around abortion? So many things are changing. I'm just going to highlight the important things. And one of the things that is changing is that for a woman to do a blood test, she has to use her national ID. And if she's pregnant pregnant that will be registered so the state can always chase and they will know that you're pregnant and they can come after you um and

they will know what you're going to do with your pregnancy which is a new level of intrusion into privacy um as um as other part of the new law anyone who plays a part in abortion, like the doctor, the nurse, midwife, drug seller, anyone can be sentenced to two to five years in prison and their license for work, their work license can be revoked. So we have had cases that doctors and nurses have lost their jobs forever. And what about contraception finally? So the free contraception scheme that was distributed by government in less privileged areas, that's stopped and banned. And that's just leaving deprived people even more vulnerable. That was Sabah Savarai speaking to me. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. if you can't join us live at 10am during the week all you need to do is subscribe to our daily podcast on BBC Sounds

and it's free now do you have your awards and achievements on display and if yes where do you keep them well academic Dr Louise Creakin keeps her PhD in the downstairs guest loo Hilary Whitehall mum of comedian Jack and co-host of the Wittering Whitehall podcast, once kept a trophy she'd won in her handbag for easy access. Well, I spoke to both of them yesterday and began by asking Louise to describe her downstairs toilet. My downstairs toilet is perhaps an offence on the eyes, I think. So basically what happened was it was when I got my PhD it took me a very very long time

to do it because it's almost like when you're dyslexic a PhD in English literature is difficult which I didn't realize but my PhD was kind of the bane of my wife's life so when I got it I was like I'm gonna get the most gaudy, ridiculous frame for this thing. And we're going to put it somewhere and it's just going to be ridiculous. But when we got into our house, my wife found it first and put it in the loo. So, you know, all that excitement and like, oh, look what I did. It just got completely undercut by my wife just being done with the whole experience of me going through the PhD so then the downstairs toilet became what we call the smug bastard toilet where or the toilet

of achievement so it's now got a range of awards in there some that I'm you know genuinely pretty like pleased about you know sports medals and things but then it also ranges to like we found my wife's like french homework from when she was 11 but it's it's angel of the north because we're in the northeast and it's spelled incorrectly so we thought it was funny so we put it on the wall similarly a letter home from school about when i tanked my food technology exam on purpose and got 18 that letter home is in proud pride of place in that toilet. So, you know, although it's kind of boastful about some things, it's undercut by silly, silly things. Very good.

I mean, you're in good company there, aren't you? Because loads of actresses have famously put their awards in the loo. Emma Thompson, Kate Winslet being two. What is so fitting about the toilet? Why the toilet? I think it's because it just kind of undercuts the kind of pomposity of award giving so it's you know you're you're just you're there doing what everyone does um in that toilet and but then you've got the kind of awards there so

it's just it just kind of i don't know it's just a weird juxtaposition i find quite amusing um yeah i'm gonna bring hillary in here hillary is it is it is it cutting cutting it down or is it a humble brag because anyone who comes to your house is probably going to use that loo at some point and is going to see all those achievements i think i think we have to use humor in these things oh i mean we should use humour at all times, to be honest. So I think it's a little giggle for people to go in and say, OK, yeah, I get it, I get it. I have to say about Downstairs, Lou,

at one stage, a programme that Michael did with Jack, they made a hologram of Michael's face. So I put it above the Lou, so it's fine for us gals because we sit with our backs to behind the Lou. Guys find it very, very unnerving that there is Michael Whitehall staring at them when they go to the loo. And what's this story about you taking your trophy around with you in a handbag for a while? Well, I was doing it for the older gals out there because I, until quite recently, until I picked up a terrible injury, played quite serious hockey, league hockey. And I played for a team in the Surrey League, albeit Division Nine, but we were

there doing our stuff. And I was, in 2016, I was top scorer and I won the captain's cup. Now, I should explain that this cup was about this big and I decided that none of my family were going to trumpet this achievement so I was going to do it for myself. So this cup came everywhere with me for the year that I had it and during that year I was very lucky, thanks to Jack primarily, to meet a lot of celebrities and I would always get a selfie with the celebrity and the cup. On a couple of occasions with Jack, I remember one particular occasion. I got one with Mourinho, Jose Mourinho. And he said, Mother, this man has won the Champions League.

He's not interested in your cup. And actually he turned around and said, no, Jack, I'm very interested in the cup that your mother has won. Let me see it. And then I got out the camera and I got a picture with Mourinho. It was amazing. Which is charming, isn't it? And you could get away with it. And yeah, and it's very funny. But why are we reluctant to celebrate our achievements? Do we think it's a British thing that we like to underplay everything? We're understated? Yeah.

You know, it's like, I mean, I've always sort of slightly underplayed my children. I'm not the sort of parent that says, oh, my child's just got three A's at A level. You know, I say, oh, well, they've just about struggled through their A level. Yeah, what is that? No, they did okay.

I don't know. Maybe it was my family, but we very much underplayed achievements. I wonder if it feels like it might be a cultural thing. What about up in Scotland, Louise?'m down I'm down south now um but um yeah I think it's a cultural thing I think it's um I think there's a there's a deep disdain at least I I really feel it for you know it's embarrassing to have the fuss made. You want it, you want that validation, but there is something of like internal cringe. I think there's something about, I don't know.

I've always felt like I really enjoy being the underdog, like in a situation. So when I achieve something, I want people to know about it, but like, I don't want them to make too much of a fuss because it wasn't expected. Like, I don't know. I think it's a very, it's complex. It shouldn shouldn't be complex you've done something great you've got an award yeah or you know you've done something silly at school and got another home um and you you know

you you should sort of accept it and be like oh this is great this is me done but it's more complex than that the sort of feelings attached to it it's like oh I've got this material object um do I where do I put that who do I show that to it's not like you can kind of move on because you've still got that object in your house so what do you do with it you know that was Dr Louise Creakin and Hilary Whitehall and we got a huge response from you to this discussion Jay said, At the age of 54, I graduated with a 2.1 in English and creative writing. My certificate and photo is on the wall in what I call the clever corner in my dining room with all my children's photos.

It's there simply to remind me that I actually did it. Well done, Jay. Amanda wrote, My OBE medal is on the fridge with my magnets. One listener shared, my father kept his Cambridge PhD thesis at the top of the main staircase in our house, strategically placed to intimidate potential boyfriends. Another wrote in to say, last October, Leicester University named a new campus building after me as the first woman and first woman of colour to be elected president of the Students' Union in 1975. I have my name on a 14-storey tower block. Priceless.

I brag about it all the time. So you should. And Barbara said, I have four degrees and two diplomas. I'm 77 and have them all hidden in a box. Not sure whether they should go on the wall at this late stage, but after listening to your programme, I think they might go in the hallway for all to see. Barbara, get them out.

Get them framed. Show off. Now, school holidays have already started in parts of the UK. So are you planning to go on holiday this summer? Are you travelling by plane and already planning how you'll entertain your children? Do you worry they might throw a tantrum on the flight? It can, of course, be a very stressful situation.

But can we expect infants to behave the same as adults? To discuss, Nuala was joined by Jane Dowden, an actor and comedian known as Mum with a Mic on Instagram and mother to identical six-year-old twin boys, and Lucy Cavendish, an author and therapist. She's the mother of four mostly grown-up children and on holiday in Greece. Nuala started by asking Jane what it's been like flying with her boys over the years.

Tricky. Yeah, it's not the most fun I've had. My husband's actually from New Zealand and we still haven't done that flight. And is it because of the flight? Is it just the thought of it yeah it really is I just I feel like until they're a little bit older and I can reason with them then we will bite the bullet and do it but until then we're gonna we're gonna build up to it slowly

we're gonna stay in Europe I think um yeah we've had we've had we've had a few funny incidences like we try and be prepared. And that's the thing. I think you can. I do packs for my boys. So I do stickers and colouring in. And all those things are great for about 45 minutes. And then you're just in the thick of it like every other parent on that flight.

And you just don't know what you're going to get. And what are you worried about? Is it that the child is distressed or is it the looks from other passengers? That for me, it's 100% judgment from others, from other people on the flight. We had a really unpleasant experience when the boys were quite little. They were only two and a half

and we were flying to France and they just were excited. I mean, they were very excited so I can appreciate for people around us it was a little annoying but they were two and a half you know sort of bashing on things wanting to run up and down and we were trying to manage it as best we could and I think everybody could see that I was frantically reaching for those stickers and the colouring pens and whatnot and it just none of it was working and there was not much we could do we were stuck on a plane and there was a couple in front of us and the lady just kept looking and I didn't I couldn't really understand what was

going on and I just asked her if everything was okay and she said no I think I think you can't control your children I think it's disgusting and um yeah I just you're letting yourself down and it was it was awful it was and her husband kind of turned around and reiterated the same point and honestly I have never ever felt more shamed in my life as a parent as a mum of twins people are normally quite sort of congratulatory whatever the word is yeah yeah you know they think wow well done to you. And in this instance, it was just the complete opposite. And it was so upsetting.

It really was. What did you do? I cried. I didn't want them to see, but I just sort of silently sat there crying. And a lovely air hostess had kind of seen what had happened and brought me over a glass of Prosecco, which was so sweet.

And then as we left, actually, I think the captain had been made aware so the boys were ushered into the cockpit and got to see the plane and it was lovely but it honestly it it almost ruined the holiday for me it really put me on edge because for the rest of the holiday I was so desperate to just not upset anyone anywhere anything and it was just just, I did try and reason with her. And I said, you know, come on, you've had children. You must understand I'm trying my best. And she just said, you know, she just wouldn't have any of it. She said, well, my children never behaved like this.

It's appalling. It's so interesting. I'm reading one that came in as I'm listening to you. It says, on a flight from Dublin last week, a child screamed, and I mean screamed at the top of its lungs as though it was being tortured for an hour or more nonstop. I've never heard a child scream so loudly or for so long in my whole life. It was absolutely ear shattering. And the last thing you need when you have to get up at 4.30 in the morning when I complained to the stewardess, I got no reaction at all. But I'm thinking that of the passenger in front of you. But let me turn to you, Lucy. I mean, how do you defuse these situations, do you think? Because your youngest

is a 16-year-old now, so you must have been through it. Yes, yes, I have four children. I've cleared airports, I've cleared aeroplanes, I flew back from New York my eldest son is 26 so when he was little we flew back from New York he screamed the entire way literally the entire way and at that point in economy they had one telly and they took the film off and they got to sit with the air hostess

you know in the end I'm so sorry Jane you've had that terrible experience I have nothing but empathy and sympathy for people traveling with small children and I do my best to help and play with them and my elder children are brilliant they'll color with them they'll talk to them they'll play peekaboo with them because I know how horrible it is and one day a woman said to me, can't you control your children? And I said, plainly, obviously, I can't. I obviously can't.

But if you'd like to give it a go, be my guest. And I got over the judgment thing. Yesterday on the flight out to Greece, my daughter, who's quite something, you know, she's not shy in being vocal, decided just as we were about to taxi that she needed to use the loo and said you know i've got to go to the loo i was like well look you know the seatbelt lights on she stood up and at the top of her voice said i've got to go and the air hostess ran down i was like yes yes yes yes we'll stop the plane you know and she was like ah job done off she went i i think it's atrocious we are so intolerant the people that are traveling with

the children are the people that are suffering i see pushing toddlers and babies through the airport doing push chairs bottles you know trying to plug them into whatever thing they can find just to make them be quiet you know why do we have a problem with that if they want to you know, trying to plug them into whatever thing they can find just to make them be quiet. You know, why do we have a problem with that? If they want to, you know, they run up and down, they kick your seat. Honestly, you know, we're grownups, we're adults, surely we can do it. But I mean, what does work? Because I think a lot of people will be plotting and planning trips. You know, you do see those arguments about whether young children should fly, whether they should be allowed in business class, whether there should be child-free flights, you know, these ideas that are floated, I guess, every holiday season. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts about that, Jane?

About people having an issue with people like kids flying? Yes. Yeah, well, it's just a bit weird isn't it because you know we were all babies once and I just think a bit of tolerance is all that's required as you said earlier 100% nobody is more upset in that moment than the parent or carer of that child and so actually just showing a bit of humanity is is just priceless and that could change her day what about what do you think has worked for you you've six-year-old twins you are by now an expert um screens really I mean so we we do take all the coloring in and the stickers but as I say you buy limited amount of time you

feel like a great parent during that moment you know but then inevitably the screen comes out I think just I think it's just yeah trying to prepare as much as you can taking a pack for each with some colouring bits if you've got a screen and you know your kids use screens take those and then just take a deep breath take a deep breath do the flight and just know that at some point it's going to be over you're going to be your destination and hopefully have a lovely holiday That was Jane Dowden and Lucy Cavendish That's all from me this afternoon Thank you for your

company as ever Next week sees the start of the Women's World Cup and on Monday Nuala is joined by one woman who's had a huge

impact on the game over many years Hope Powell the former Lionesses head coach will discuss England's chances the growth of the game

and how to continue building a legacy for women's sport. That's Monday from 10. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.