Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Windrush Women, Tracey Emin, Irene Tracey, Bridget Christie, Working Women in India, Glastonbury

Episode Date: June 24, 2023

On Thursday, the UK celebrated the 75th anniversary of the arrival of the Empire Windrush which made the 5,000 mile journey from the Caribbean to England in 1948. The passengers were mainly made up of ex-servicemen along with over 200 bold, pioneering women. Veteran nurse and founder of the Windrush Cymru Elders, Roma Taylor, former nurse Allyson Williams and journalist Amina Taylor join Nuala to discuss their experiences of leaving home to help rebuild Britain after WWII.As visitors walk through the doors of the newly reopened National Portrait Gallery in London, they will see 45 hand-drawn portraits of women by British artist Tracey Emin, that have been cast in bronze. They are said to represent every woman. Tracey speaks to Krupa Padhy about her creative process and what she hopes people will take away from the images.Professor Irene Tracey is only the second ever female Vice-Chancellor of the University of Oxford. In the last few weeks she has had to deal with several angry protests in Oxford over the appearance of Kathleen Stock at the Oxford Union. She allowed the talk to go ahead, saying, ‘we have to defend free speech’. Professor Tracey joins Nuala to talk about the battle over free speech, as well as what it’s like being a woman in the world of academia.Comedian Bridget Christie’s stand-up has been credited with putting the funny in feminism. You might know her from Taskmaster or Ghosts. Now she’s created and stars in a comedy drama called The Change, which starts this week on Channel 4. She plays Linda, a woman who turns 50, discovers she’s menopausal and abandons her family to go off and find herself in the Forest of Dean. Bridget joins Nuala in studio.Nuala McGovern talks to Rosa Abraham & Rituparna Chakraborty about the fact that nearly half of the population in India is female, but the number of working women has fallen to record lows.For the first time ever, Woman's Hour broadcast live from Glastonbury. Four time Grammy nominee and folk legend Allison Russell joined Anita live for a very special performance. Alongside being a singer and songwriter Allison is a poet, an activist and a multi-instrumentalist. Fresh from performing alongside the one and only Joni Mitchell earlier this month she is at Glastonbury, performing on The Acoustic Stage.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Hanna Ward Studio Engineer: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and a very warm welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, the programme each week where we gather together the best bits of Woman's Hour from the week gone by and put them all in one place for you. Coming up this afternoon, in the week of the 75th anniversary of the arrival of the Empire Windrush, we hear experiences of women from the Windrush generation who answered the call from the British government to help rebuild the country after World War II.

My nightmare started when I actually went out on the wards. I suffered a lot of racism and there was even physical abuse because my hands were slapped away countless times to say that I was dirty. They didn't want my black dirt to rub off on them. Artist Tracey Emin tells us all about her latest project, drawing 45 women to feature on the entrance stalls of the revamped National Portrait Gallery. Plus Oxford University's Vice-Chancellor Irene Tracey on free speech. And for our Women in India series, we hear about why a record number of women are dropping out of the workforce.

Most families educate their girls for the marriage market. If as a prospective bride you indicate that you want to work and you want to stay employed or you want to start being employed after marriage, that can act as a penalty. All of that to come, so do settle in. But first, on Thursday, the UK celebrated the 75th anniversary of the arrival of the Empire Windrush, which made the 5,000 mile journey from the Caribbean to Tilbury Docks in June 1948. There were hundreds of passengers, mainly ex-servicemen, along with their 200 bold, pioneering women

who left everything behind to better their own and their families' lives. It was in 1955 that the British government started campaigning to recruit nurses from across the Caribbean to help the then ailing health service. Nuala heard from some of the women who answered the call. Veteran nurse and founder of the Windrush Cymru Elders, Roma Taylor, journalist Amina Taylor, no relation, and former nurse Alison Williams. It was very exciting because I had made the decision that that's what I wanted to do in life. I wanted to train as a

nurse and a midwife to be like my mother, who had the most amazing experiences and stories in Trinidad, where I'm from. And so I was told that I had to go through the process through the Ministry of Health, because the British government were there and they were inviting us to come and train and help rebuild the motherland. So I felt very special, really, very proud. And I thought, you know, we would be welcome with open arms. And it was the beginning of a good future. And what was the reality like? The reality was quite different, very different. The personnel and the authorities at the hospital were lovely. And I also met quite a lot of West Indians and fellow Trinidadians because our ministry recommended that I go to the hospital that I did

because that was what they were well known for. And so that bit was really lovely. And the way we were, you know, settled and looked after by the staff in the hospital were good. But my nightmare started when I actually went out on the wards for six months in the classroom when, you know, I suffered a lot of racism. That was quite new to me because, you know, we had so many different types of people, all different colors and races and religions in Trinidad. And I never experienced any such behavior. But there was even physical abuse because my hands were slapped away countless times. By patients?

By patients to say that I was dirty. They didn't want my black dirt to rub off on them. And they made very derogatory remarks about living in trees and how high and do we swing on vines or build ladders? How did you cope with that abuse yes it was actually more frightening um because it was not what i was used to and i felt at the time that i really wasn't learning anything i you were so on edge and tense when you had to go on the wards that um you know it just seemed counterproductive being there. And so after about six months, I rang my mother and I said,

right, I'm coming home, mum. I can't stand these people. And they're so rude and they're so ignorant. They don't even know where Trinidad is, never mind, you know, what we live like. And she said, you know, what are you coming home to do? Wallow in your self-pity and, you know, find a way to deal with it. You know, racism, everybody else's problem, it's not yours. Let them deal with their own fears,

but you find some way to deal with it because that was your vision, that was your passion, that's what you wanted to do in life. And you say that now with a smile and a laugh. Yes, yes, because I had an aha moment on the wards sometime after that. And I just stood up and screamed, I think, if I remember, you know, in fear and anger and, you know, anxiousness. And I said to everybody, I sort of walked up and down the wards to say, I am 21. And I know I was born black. I know I am black. I will always be black. So tell me, does anybody have anything new to say? Tell me something I don't know.

And you could hear a pin drop. I'm usually very quiet and docile and they didn't expect to hear that from me. And so what it did was to make a huge difference to me and to make me feel proud of being black and respect my blackness and not be frightened to be called black. And it gave me a lot of self-respect and the ability to just get on with my work. And so I heard it all through my 40 years in the NHS, but I just would wave it away. It never had the same effect from that point on. So it made a huge difference. How extraordinary. How extraordinary, Alison. I want't have any racism at all

because Tiger Bay was a multicultural community. All different ethnic minorities there. The people were so friendly. Everybody loved each other. So I didn't see racism in Tiger Bay at all. And I'm glad your experience was kinder and more compassionate than Alison's was. You did decide to join the army. What was behind that?

I used to take my two daughters to ballet and dancing. And one day this lady came in and she had a uniform on. And I said, what's that? The army. I said, oh my gosh. I said, wow, can I come? And she said, yes. I filled a few forms in and they took all my particulars.

And then I was private greens. And it was wonderful. I've been in for 25 years and I loved it well I was a nurse and then I went into the QARANC Queen Alexandra Royal Army Nursing Corps and we did lots of activities in the army it was fabulous. I wish I was still there now. I need to turn to Amina, who's also here and who is younger than Alison and Roma. I don't know, what must it be like for you to hear those stories? I mean, it's clear, just listening to Alison's testimony here and listening to what Roma had to say. People like myself stand on the shoulders of giants. I mean, my mom came here because her aunt came right after in around 1952. So a crucial part of that post-war reconstruction era, Keith, worked as a driver in the NHS. And there were so many of these other stories that I never had to live. And when my mom joined them in the early 60s,

again, it was a difference in attitude because they were being impacted by civil rights, by a different sense of self. So by the time I came along in Jamaica in 1977, when my mum had returned and had me there, when I came here at 15, the landscape was different. Would you ever go back home, Roma? Is that something you ever consider?

No, my mum did. My mum wanted to go back home, but she passed sadly. But, well, I wanted to go back home, but she passed sadly. Well, I wanted to go back, but when I think about my family, my seven children, my 25 grandchildren and my 19 great-grands and twins on the way. Twins on the way. Yes, 19 and twins on the way. I just couldn't, I couldn't face going back and leaving my family here. Alison, what about you? Do you ever think about going home? Oh, I have thought of it quite a lot. But for the same reasons as Roma, once you qualify, and then you acquire a husband, and then you have wonderful children, you have to find a way of settling and raising

them as best as you can. And I loved my profession here quite a lot. And so I was getting very, very involved in midwifery and the hospital I was at. But one good thing I did, I married a fellow Trinidadian. So we had the same values, the same way of thinking. And we took our children home very, very regularly all the time. So they're very much steeped in the lifestyle, the culture and all the rest of the family who were there. Alison Williams, Roma Taylor and Amanda Taylor speaking there. We also reflected on the difficulties currently facing the Windrush generation, including compensation. You can find that episode by heading to BBC Sounds and searching for Woman's Hour. The National Portrait Gallery reopened this week after its closure to the public in 2020.

And right at the moment you enter is a major new commission by the artist Tracey Emin. The three doors that now form the entrance to the gallery feature 45 portraits, hand-drawn by Emin and then cast into bronze, and they are said to represent every woman. I spoke to Tracey to discuss the commission and the importance of representation the north and the whole facade changing, they wanted to make a really big deal out of it. And by keeping it a secret just made it more exciting for everybody, I think. Was that tricky? No, it wasn't because I was, everyone's more interested in me keeping it a secret. We'll get on to the art in a moment. Yeah, but people were sort of so surprised that I could keep a secret.

Of course, it wasn't a secret. It was a professional request to keep it on embargo to make it fun for everybody. And Her Royal Highness, the Princess of Wales, was the person who officially opened the door, which also makes it really exciting and historic and a wonderful moment. Her Royal Highness, the Princess of Wales, was the person who officially opened the door, which also makes it really exciting and historic and a wonderful moment. So I was quite in agreement in keeping it a secret. And it was fun as well, because I was working in my studio. People would ask me what I was doing.

I'd say, just drawing faces, just drawing, just drawing. But also they looked like fantastic across my studio floor. And they had to be very graphic because they had to then be etched into the bronze. So it was a kind of different drawing style for me. So people were kind of amused at what I was doing and why I was suddenly drawing all these sort of faces. But it definitely made my studio look very different and very, very alive. So you were tasked with this job of owning this space, this new entry, and you went about it by drawing these portraits of 45 women.

First of all, who are these women? Yeah, well, I went about it with sort of fear and intrepidation because it was such a it was such a big it's a really big deal because it's forever it's a trusted position it's it's um beyond the establishment the establishment we have now isn't the establishment we're going to have in 200 years time and those doors are still going to be there so there was an incredible amount of responsibility and onus put on to me so I didn't take it lightly and my first idea was to draw women from history my next and it was always going to be women because um because the the whole place was very masculine in a strange way and very manly and all the roundels at the top are all men it's 18 men at the top so it was

obvious to me it had to be women and and of course National Portrait Gallery is full of really amazing women so I started with the obvious idea of drawing women from history and then the more I looked at I started off with Daphne du Maurier who's my favourite writer and then I went on to you know then I thought Vivian and then this person and that person and then it got very very complicated because there was so many more than 45 and there were so many women from different backgrounds different ethnic origins everything and I just thought this is really politically complex and this is not my field of working this isn't what I do and it started to look like a little sort of school project of me trying to you know uh complete

the brief and I didn't like it and then I just thought I'm just going to draw me I'll start off with me and then the more me's I drew the more other people came into it the more different women you were the inspiration for these 45 women I love this I love this because I thought if I was gonna have 45 women on the doors, would I put myself in there? But let's make it clear, you were the starting point and then they emerged into something else, into someone else. Yeah, which is good because I've got women of different ages, different ethnic origins, different colour, different facial features,

different ages. And it was really exciting. I didn't try to draw them I just drew these women from my imagination and they just developed into this other thing which was really exciting for me I loved it and there's one on it which is mum and she looks like a sort of um Norman Norman Conquester she look it looks Norman it looks it looks amazing it looks like something you'd have on a Norman cathedral. And she sort of looks like my mum, but she definitely doesn't look like my mum.

But I put mum, and it's everyone's mum. And then there's another one, which just by chance, I didn't mean it, but she looks like she's got a nurse's cap on. So it could be a nurse from now, it could be Florence Nightingale, but what it represents is a nurse, which is really, really good because of our national health system, you know. It represents all these people that were looking after us during the pandemic. So subconsciously, I covered all these different posts without even trying.

So it's genuinely my work. So it's been a journey for you as well in that sense. Yeah, I loved it. I loved doing it. And, you know, I could have carried on drawing them. I really, it was amazing, especially when I started drawing all the older women as well. I was thinking, wow, I didn't know. These women obviously living in my mind and in my head. They're there, which also made it, I realised that they're there for everybody.

We all have all these women of our lives that have touched us, that we pass in the street, that we've loved, who have looked after us, nurtured us, you know, different people. So it kind of makes sense that it is every woman and it is for everybody. And do you have a favourite beyond mum? Yeah, I like the woman at the side profile with the mask on she's my favorite so it also represents the pandemic but also she looks like she's a woman wearing a chador or yashmak i'm half turkish cypriot so also this other thing that's been brought up so i'm oh according to vada moyanichak eighth nubian eighth part nubian. Right, yes, I read about that, yeah. My great-grandfather, my dad's grandfather was Nubian,

from Nubia, Egypt, Africa. And so it was really interesting for me to start, to actually have these sort of Nubian-looking women as well. So I was thinking maybe I'm sort of like somehow psychologically going back into my ancestors or something. All encompassing. That's what you wanted it to be. And for those who aren't familiar with the space, I mean, what you've created lies in contrast to the busts of men which are carved into the buildings beside. And that really represents what this new revamped National Portrait Gallery is trying to achieve.

But when you go into the National Portrait Gallery now just go wow it feels magnificent it feels like a palace you know it feels grand and it feels also it feels incredibly contemporary and I'm so proud to be part of that future because it isn't just here now in the present and also because of what I've been through with my illness and everything I didn't really you, the idea that I've made these doors and they're going to be there forever is a good feeling for me because it means that life continues on regardless. That's very moving. Yeah, as an artist, life hopefully should go on forever

and mine is going to now. I'm there. Artist Tracey Emin speaking there. And lots of you got in touch about my interview with Tracy Emin Sue emailed in to say what an intelligent articulate and an acknowledgement of women in the arts with Tracy Emin Caroline on Twitter said one of my favorite people love listening to Tracy so interesting thank you for all of your messages. Now to free speech. In January this year, the University of Oxford appointed only its second ever female vice-chancellor. Irene Tracy

is a professor of anaesthetic neuroscience and warden of the Merton College, both roles which she has temporarily stopped to become vice-chancellor. Within months of starting, she was dealing with the controversy surrounding Professor Kathleen Stock's invitation to speak at the Oxford Union. Many students, including LGBTQ groups, held strong protests and called for the talk to be cancelled. Professor Stock questions the idea that gender identity is more socially significant than biological sex. But the vice-chancellor said that it was important that the talk go ahead in order to protect free speech.

We wanted to speak to her more about her thinking behind that decision. Nuala began by asking Irene Tracy about those student protests. I mean, you know, look, students, many of us have been one before, you know, they're here to test what it is that they are thinking, you know, to evolve their thinking, to challenge each other, to challenge the system and the institution that they're in. That's all very normal. And that's what one would expect. And the hot topics at the moment, of course, centre around broad issues of free speech. And so this is a hot topic in most university campuses globally and has been actually for a couple of years. So this was not something that I was not expecting.

And of course, we had a particular person invited to come and give a lecture. Again, as ever with these things, there's a lot more chatter in the media than necessary was going on. So I think it was represented to be more dramatic than actually was going on in the background here. There was really never any question that she was not going to give her lecture. That was very clear right from the outset. But that's from your opinion and from the university's opinion.

Yeah. I mean, some students may have thought that they might have been able to derail it. Indeed, exactly. But the majority of students got it, you know, the student union, you know, understand that they're signed up to the freedom of freedom of speech policy. So there was no question about that. But there was, of course, a rightful opportunity for students to protest and express their displeasure. And indeed, you know, for some of them wanting it not to happen while still recognising that there's a very clear policy and people have a right to give views. And I've been very public, as you know, you know, discussing these issues as it was evolving, that, you know, we have a freedom

of speech policy. It's very clear that people will come and express views that will be tolerable to some and completely intolerable to others. But short of that line, it's very clear about things being sort of illegal. Then, you know, people have a right to come and express their views and also to be challenged for their views. And that the opportunity that presents I think there's lots of learning to be done. The line that I saw that struck me was you said students must hear views they find distasteful and do you think that the environment is different now that people students are less open to hearing those views? You know, I don't think so. I think actually, you know, we don't, you know, I'm a neuroscientist

and person that sort of understands evolution a bit and evolution of the brain, you know, we've not evolved that quickly. But things can change culturally, they can change in a very short space of time, even a matter of years. Absolutely. So as sort of animals, you know, we've not evolved that quick, but society's evolved at such a pace. So here we've got this sort of now juxtaposition of, you know, we haven't evolved, you know, on an evolutionary biology sense that quick,

but we're living in a really complex, global, complex society with all that ability for things to be communicated very rapidly, for them to be commented on very rapidly and explode. And that is so different to my student days. There was always a willingness for students to accept things that were challenging and different and argue and debate. And you did it in the pub and you had big rows and et cetera. Now it's just really fuelled because of the ease, I think, by which commentary can be made and then expanded upon. And of course, we talk a lot about echo chambers and social media.

So I just think it's really harder. You know, I've got three kids. I just think it's a lot harder now for young people to have debates and discussions and refine their thinking and change their minds without being victimised or called out that you've changed your mind, you used to help that one. Whereas I think back in the day, it was easy for you to do that. So the challenge I think for us as educators is how do we diffuse the situation? How do we help them develop skill sets to manage that? But I suppose it's also how people react to those. And there's a lot you've said there, which I find very rich for discussion. Is it trying to train that if a view is distasteful, that ostracising or cancelling is not the answer? Yeah, I think it's to say that the very things that often you are trying to say, argue why you would want to not have that person come because you are opposed to their views on things. Well, one, there's a real opportunity to engage with that person and express why it is that you have those views and challenge that person and have that debate

and how to do that in a respectful and courteous manner. So that's how we affect changing views of people and society and we evolve what our thinking is and what those norms are of what we expect and how we evolve issues around, particularly, you know, equality, diversity, inclusion. Why do you think that appetite is in there with certain students to engage, to debate, to take that person down for want of a better term? I think it is there. I just don't think there wasn't in this case.

This was very much pushing back. No, just should not be allowed to speak. Yeah, I think that's right. So I think it's there intrinsically. I don't think, as I said, students have changed dramatically since we were students. But what's not there is the mechanism and the means or the confidence that you can do it without fear of, you know, persecution or isolation or being vilified in the media. So again, how can we create forums where people can have exactly that? Because I think they would like to have those debates and discussions, but can be done in a way that is going to be productive. And that's why we're thinking about other ways that we can almost sort of teach students, look, this is what a debate looks like. Let's set up some debates. Let's set up some opportunities. But also what boggles me, and I'm not a person who went to Oxford,

but I would imagine that is the history, that is within the walls there. And yet it now has to be taught, like reinventing the wheel. Oh, yeah. No, no, let me reassure you, it is in the walls there. It's totally in the DNA and it's, you know, ever present. You get incidents like this that flare up. And again, the media sort of present it in a much bigger way than actually on the ground. But the media, they are reporting what the students are telling them.

Yeah, some students, obviously you've got... Some students, absolutely, 100%. You've got 30,000 students here who have plenty of opportunity for debate and the very fact that the union is there, you know, and lays on the debates and you've got lots of other lectures going on. And of course, as I say say to students when you're learning and your subject area we're teaching you how to understand your subject from this view that view the other view a real 360 you know degree view and then what's your view what i try to explain to them is all you need

to do is transfer that out then into some of these other topics in the world and that's all you need to do. Yes which you know conjures up this fascinating scenario for me which because these students are being taught to debate and discuss as you say like one of those students should be able to take Kathleen Stock's view and be able to debate it but But I think with a minority, as I think you're alluding to there, out of all the students, they would never do that. They will not put themselves in those shoes. And they have a right to, again, that's their right to not want to engage if that's their particular point on it. But in that debate itself, you had a range of different people in the room who were asking her questions. So it wasn't as if students didn't turn up from a range of views and engage, you know, with her at that evening. So that tells you that does happen and students are there willing to engage in debate.

And there's a few that just chose absolutely not to. And you have, you know, your view as to whether they should or not. And that's fair enough too. But they also have a right not to engage if they chose to at this point in time. Now, the question is... Which is meaning they could change their mind in the future. Indeed, indeed. Exactly, exactly right. Exactly right. And part of it is, you know, you might always hold that view, but, you know, learning that if you're going to really persuade people to understand more where you're coming from, and if you want to really win an argument, you've got to have the argument, you've got to have the discussion, the debate. And it's really,

to be honest, a very positive thing when events like this happen because it brings it to the forefront and it allows us to have again i hope a calm and mature conversation about right guys how do we do this better how are we going to take some of these issues forward and evolve our thinking and do it in a way that is again respectful and courteous and that's some of the things we're going to showcase a few um you know debates where we bring people in and we'll show how do you have blazing disagreements about things but you can do it without

I think you're talking about the toxicity which we see exactly whether it's you know whether it's online or whether it's

in the room or whether it's at a protest etc but I'd be curious you know I think you're saying that you can see a future

without that do you think within the gender debate in particular, perhaps, which is, I suppose, a hot button issue at the moment, among others, do you see a real way out? I really hope so. You know, you don't evolve societies by going into your silos and not discussing and debating with each other. This is how we evolve our thinking,

because it's not as if we've all arrived with predetermined ideas and templates. You know, I'm still evolving. I'm 56. I'm still evolving my thinking on issues. And so, again, it's how do we create the fora to have those really good conversations where you can go away and reflect and move forward because that's how you evolve, you know, as a society. So I'm an optimist. I'm confident that with more discussion and openness and willing to learn from again lived experiences of people coming from the trans community and other communities that we can we can better understand each other and then decide how we're going to evolve you know our societies to respect and put in place whatever it is we want to put in

place and decide how we're going to manage it. Professor Irene Tracy there the Vice Chancellor of Oxford University. Still to come on the programme, comedian Bridget Christie on her new comedy drama, The Change. Plus, why is the number of women in the Indian workforce at record lows? We'll find out from two experts in the country. And remember, you can enjoy Women's Hour

any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. Just head to BBC Sounds and search Women's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. Just head to BBC Sounds and search Woman's Hour. But next, comedian Bridget Christie. Her stand-up has been credited with putting the funny in feminism. You might also know her from Taskmaster or as Annie in the BBC sitcom Ghosts. Now she's created and stars in a new comedy drama called The Change, which starts this week on Channel 4. Bridget plays Linda, a woman who turns 50, discovers she's menopausal and abandons her family to find herself in the Forest of Dean.

She joined Nuala in the studio and began by talking about the influences behind the storyline. As anyone who's written for TV or a film, it takes years and years and years. It was originally about puberty. No, but it was a long time ago. And that central character, there were themes that are still in it, you know, that kind of reaching middle age and kind of losing sight of yourself and not really knowing where you're going or things perhaps haven't panned out as you'd hoped. So, yeah, there were themes that were there originally kind of six, seven years ago when that original script was commissioned. But then, you know, and then lockdown happened, so that informed the series as well.

Loads of things have informed it over that period, which actually I'm really glad because it wouldn't have been the show that it is now. So, you know, everything has been just perfect, really. I think the timing is really good. I don't think I could have written it at any point in my life, really. Because you also started going through the menopause. Yeah, just before lockdown.

Yeah. So and I didn't really know because they were different and they were some of the symptoms are really odd. And also, is it the result of the pandemic or is it the menopause? Exactly. Yeah. Or is it too much coffee or, you know, you just there are whole different reasons, I think. And you can jump to the wrong conclusions as well. If you don't if you don't know or you're not aware that it is the menopause, you think it's all these other things. So I did go to the doctor with this list of symptoms and he did say that that was the menopause.

But then once you know, I think it takes a lot of fear away and you can start managing your menopause much better and that's the really key thing I think for women and young women to know what's coming so that they can then sort of plan for it and manage it much better. And maybe even look forward to it I love that word liberating that you talk about and I feel, Linda, and I believe this is you too, has found freedom on a motorbike. I did. Well, I was a biker in my youth, you know, from sort of 16 to 23. And I, you know, I was in a little biker gang and I was in the motorcycle action group and I did all that. And then I got to about 50 and I was like, oh, I'm going to, because life took over, you know, and I had kids and I moved up to London. So I didn't have anywhere to keep a bike.

So I bought myself a Triumph for my 50th birthday. That's not the bike that's in the show. We had to get a different one for the show. And actually I had to ride it in front of the stunt guy to prove that I could ride the bike. Otherwise it was too much of an insurance risk. But yeah, so I had to prove, I had to have men watching guy in and I had to prove that I could ride the bike. Otherwise, it was too much of an insurance risk. But yeah, so I had to prove, I had to have men watching me riding a motorbike. Yeah, so. How's it been getting back on a bike?

Well, it's literally like the saying, you know, I just got on, I just got back on and it was fine. I mean, I hadn't ridden in 32 years. And I went down to pick up my motorbike, is a it was it's a big triumph bobber so it's a 1200 cc and I was a little bit nervous but I was like no I'm not going to let fear stop me from doing things anymore which which I I had I'd realized that I had been doing that. But you also go back further um in the change you know flashbacks to being a child hiding a box in a tree that is a central part of why Linda decided to leave the family, the husband, the chores, the kids all behind. And the chores is a big part of it as well.

At first I was like, what is she doing? But you have a chore register in the change. You are writing down how many minutes and hours are spent giving over to other people, really. Yeah, well, she wasn't going to cash in the time back, Linda. She just started keeping a ledger a long, long time ago. So she changed the sheets? Yeah, well, everything, like dusting the lampshades. Every single thing, which do get dusty, I'm afraid to say.

So she just started writing it down because it was interesting to her that nobody was seeing her doing this stuff and you know she wasn't getting anything from it so she started these ledgers that go back sort of 20 years um and then she decides to just take some of that time back so she's not really leaving she's just having a few weeks to herself um Lisa Tarbuck well I mean what mean, what a powerhouse. She's your oldest big sis as it comes up. That was a wonderful character along with Manny Moore.

Not based on... I bet that was my next question. No, this is the thing. When women write things, people say, oh, they're all based on... None of the characters are based on any real people. But they're based on relationships that I hear. You know, my friends have relationships or whoever has a relationship.

But Linda's relationship with Siobhan is not based on any reality at all. Why does it seem so relatable? Because I, Lisa's a friend, because we know each other maybe. But lots of people have said that. But I mean, that character of Siobhan. The character, because she is a real character. I mean I know people like that. They're just not my sisters.

So yeah, people have responded to that relationship between those two. But she's just fantastic. I also let's turn to Linda. So she has a husband Steve. She has two kids. He's struggling as I mentioned to look after himself after she goes

but she also makes a decision Linda to not be classified as a wife and a mother when she goes off for some time by herself. It's a journey of self discovery I mean this is a really important point to make actually is that she's not leaving, she loves

her husband and she loves her kids and she's just having a little bit of time out. If she goes somewhere and she is known as a wife, then there's a whole different set of questions there. She needs to go and find out who she is and it's much easier for her to do that if she's just Linda, if she's just a person, if she's not got all these different things that she has to explain

and then, you know, why is she gone? What are they doing? So that was what I really wanted to explore. It it is a love story but it's a story about self love so it isn't about a breakup but it isn't about a relationship it isn't about her going off and meeting somebody it isn't it's a story about a person we don't often see middle-aged women having adventures like that where it's just about them and their relationship with themselves. And that's what I wanted to see, actually. Yes.

And I was trying to think as well, I know in it you talk about the Hulk, like the big green Hulk, being the only menopausal figure on TV. The role model. Yeah, let's just have one. Can we just have one? Then it'll be there's too many.

Then there'll be two or three and that'll be just, we're done with the menopause now for another hundred years. Well, it looks like a very cool depiction, shall I say, of this woman that goes out and is surrounded by other women. There are at least five of the main cast members who are women over 50. But this is the thing. All the really brilliant, cool, fantastic women,

people that I know who are achieving, they're all women over 50. But where are they? Like the depiction and the idea of the menopausal woman? What is that? I think that there's an idea of what it is based on. I don't know what it's not based on any of my reality and not the reality of many, many women that I know. But let's just see more of us doing this stuff and living our lives. Comedian Bridget Christie there. India has become the most populated country in the world, overtaking China. It now has a population of over 1.4 billion and growing. On Women's Hour, we wanted to take the opportunity to find out more about the diverse experiences of women in this huge country. We heard from an organisation training women who are blind to detect early breast cancer and also from a pioneer in skateboarding. If you'd like to

listen back to those interviews, just head to BBC Sounds. We also looked at the economy. Nearly half of India's population is female and yet the number of working women has fallen to record lows in the past two decades. Figures show that the proportion of Indian women in employment fell from 35% in 2004 to around 25% in 2022. Nuala was joined by Rosa Abraham, an economics professor at Azim Premji University, and Rituparma Chakraborty, co-founder of the staffing agency Team Lease Services, which helps to get people into work. Rosa began by explaining why women are disappearing from the workforce. So one of this, the main reason is the nature of change, economic change that the Indian economy has undergone. So India was typically an agricultural economy. So about

more than half its GDP came from agriculture. About 70% of the workforce was employed in agriculture. But over time, the agricultural sector has contracted. And that has meant that there's a lesser possibilities for employment in agriculture. Now, for men, what this has meant is that they've moved out of agriculture into construction and into services. But for women, unfortunately, the same kind of mobility has not happened. They've either remained in agriculture or been just pushed out of the workforce entirely. But it's so interesting. And let me bring you in, Rita Parna, because we see women's education in India is increasing.

So you would imagine then there would also be that increase in the workplace. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's one of the interesting things around which we are definitely losing sleep over, given that you started today's conversation. While there are various reasons, but some of the reasons that I can talk about is that while there is economic prosperity, essentially the males in the households, when they have started earning more, essentially there is a social pressure which is getting created that women cannot doubt. Because the women, the men in the house essentially are taking care of the economic well-being of the family that's probably one of the reasons secondly education interestingly in many cases are being used to find a better groom in india so if you're if a woman has better education qualification the

chances of getting a better qualified groom is higher so essentially somewhere education is a substitute of that as well. Then there are other factors, like in urban India, the ecosystem of transport, commuting to workplaces is extremely cumbersome, because of which women prefer to stay back at home. The ecosystem of child care is extremely weak, it's not safe, because of which women prefer to stay back at home. The ecosystem of child care is extremely weak. It's not safe. Because of which, the women end up essentially taking up some of these responsibilities. Yes, post-COVID and because of COVID, some of those situations have probably been challenged because in now, workforce or workplaces are much more welcome to having remote work.

So which has contributed marginally in terms of the improvement where women essentially can stay back at home and still be part of the employment or the workforce. But I guess there's a long way to go to kind of address the current situation. It's so interesting because, you know, I did see there was government data that an increasing number of families are actually headed by women. And I thought that was quite an interesting headline coming out of India. Over the past three decades,

their proportion is almost doubled. So about 45 million families now. Of course, that's not a huge number when you talk about 1.4 billion people, but it is a change. Let me go back to you, Rosa. I mean, what would it take instead for that to become a much more acceptable form of family in society?

I think perhaps looking at female headed families may not, I mean, it may not be an outcome that we want, that we should aim for. Because a lot of female-headed households are indicators of households where the man has been abandoned, they've been widowed, and hence they are sort of forced into female headship. So some of the increase in numbers could also be that because the man no longer resides with them, he may have migrated to better opportunities. So I'm not sure if the parameter that we want to go by is having more female headed families. But of course, having

households where women are equal contributors, if not higher contributors to employment as well as earnings, that is something that we need to work towards. And of course, there's a lot of research to look at why this is not happening. And I think I want to just add to what Deepu has said, which is that, you know, in India, most families educate their girls for the marriage market. They educate their sons for employment, but they educate their girls for the marriage market. Which just, sorry to interrupt you there, Rosa, but just really to underline it for my listeners.

So it is that a very well-educated young woman is a much wanted potential match for a marriage, even if she is not going to use that education in the workforce. Absolutely. So it is to say that having higher levels of education secures you an entry into a better or an equally matched household. And to add to that, there's also some recent evidence by this researcher called Viva Dhar, who finds that, well, education does give you a leg up in the marriage market. But if as a prospective bride, you indicate that you want to work and you want to stay employed or you want to start being employed after marriage,

that can act as a penalty. So, I mean, she did this really simple study where, you know, in India, we have these matrimonial sites where you can put up your portfolios and people who are interested can reach out and you kind of, it's like a Tinder, but for marriage. But then basically she put up these fake portfolios and one portfolio, one set of portfolios of women who did not want to work after marriage and then another set which indicated women who expressed a desire to continue working or to start working after marriage. And what you find is that for the women, for the portfolios where women expressed a desire to continue working, they were far less likely to get either acceptances or responses from potential suitors. If they're marrying that suitor, obviously there'd be pressure within the family to not go

back out and work even if they wanted to. Absolutely. So there's also this cultural stigma because sending your women out to work is seen as a sign of lower social standing. I understand. Let me turn to you, Ruta Parna, again, because obviously for the Indian economy, it could turbocharge that if it had more women in the workforce. And I'm wondering what the messaging has been from the government to companies or companies to women about trying to get them back into the workforce? Or is there any? I think there are some organizations and specific industry sectors which are taking the lead in terms of creating a workplace which is far more diverse. And they're

essentially taking up diversity targets as well, especially with regards to getting more women back at work. But even the government has been taking a set of initiatives. The challenge sometimes remains that the initiatives which are coming from the government public policy makers, probably not so much in sync with what actually women want. So I think somewhere there is sometimes a dissonance between what essentially women need

to kind of get them back into the workplaces. Ritu Parmar, Chakraborty and Rosa Abraham there. For the first time ever, Women's Hour broadcast live from Glastonbury on Friday. Anita was joined by a range of guests, including the co-organiser of the festival, a top female music industry panel and a group of Women's Hour listeners at their campsite. Four-time Grammy nominee and folk legend Alison Russell joined Anita live for a very special performance.

Alongside being a singer and songwriter, Alison is a poet, an activist and a multi-instrumentalist. Fresh from working alongside the one and only Joni Mitchell earlier this month, she's at Glastonbury. Anita began by asking her how she feels ahead of her performance. I'm so excited. This has been a real bucket list for me for 20 years now. My first baby band, Po Girl, put out our first record 20 years ago this month, which is insane to think on. But since then, I've been dreaming of playing Glastonbury. So it's a big deal for me to get to be here with you all.

Isn't it wonderful when your dreams come true? You have those pinch me moments. It's actually happening in my life. Sitting with Joni next to Annie Lennox and Sarah McLachlan, like what is happening? Pinching myself over and over and over again. Yes. Oh, delicious stuff.

Yes, it was so delicious, I can't even, yeah. For years and years, you were a collaborator in bands, working with others, most notably in the group Our Native Daughters. You're a group of black female banjo players. That sentence delights me. I understand that the group was set up to counter the narrative that black women weren't invited to the table. So tell me more about the project.

Well, Rhiannon Giddens really brought us together. She was at the Smithsonian. She was at the National Museum of African American History and Culture and in the archives and just getting really, really inspired by the number of stories of black women that don't see the light of day. And she was really feeling that

our voices were missing from the canon even when you look at music the african diaspora is so foundational to the roots of every genre of modern song every single yeah there's not there's not one genre that hasn't been um influenced affected by built on foundational African diasporic roots. And of course, the same is true for all North American, Americana, folk music, any of it. So we just decided to start singing these stories. And we banded together, Rhiannon Giddens, Amethyst Kia, Leila McCalla and I. And we accidentally became a band. We meant to just, you know, do this record. But Songs of Our Native daughters seemed to to touch

something for for kind of in the zeitgeist and it it had this you know five star guardian review and all of this attention and press and we were shocked by it we just thought we're just four little nerdy black girls with our banjos like why does anybody care but it's but they did and it was it was quite life-changing i'm intrigued intrigued to know, what does it feel like when you've just been you on your own and then all of a sudden there's a group of you with your banjos in a room together, what does that do to you?

It was just joyful. There's so much strength in our circles, right? Our circles of chosen family and sisterhood. There's so much, and for, you know, especially for those of us who are intersectional, as a queer black woman, there are a lot of circles that I've made to stand on the outside of and so when you start to begin to form circles with people who see you and love you and value you just as you are it's incredibly healing and there's exponential goodness that comes out of it. The whole is always greater than the sum of the parts and you never walk through the door alone. You link arms with anyone you can and you bring them through with you.

Alison, a solo career wasn't something that you'd imagined for yourself, but it happened. 2021, your album Outside Child came out. How did it feel finally putting your voice and your story out there? Very cathartic, I think. And because I am a mother now, I feel a kind of an urgency to make sure that we're leaving things better than we found them and that they are children that your forest that my Ida that anyone's child is not having to carry the same burdens that we've had to and you know I found myself saying things to my daughter like use your words and then I started turning that on myself

am I using my words actually as well as I could be? As bravely as I could be? As truthfully? As effectively? Like, I'm just never going to shut up again because it's all hands on deck. We're in a very precipice moment, I think, for our species. My province right now, Quebec, is on fire. And New York couldn't breathe for a good three weeks because of the rampant fires in Quebec. Unheard of.

We always have some forest fires, but this is climate change-fueled forest fire. This is species ending, potentially. The planet will go on, but will we be here? I sort of think of humanity like we're in our adolescence, and it's such a precarious time. And so I feel everything I can do to reduce harm, I approach everything that way, harm reduction. I'm not going to be able to create a utopia by singing a song,

but maybe I can reduce a little bit of harm in the world. Let's talk about your new album, The Returner. It's coming out later this year. What was your inspiration for that record? I am so excited about it. It's about survivor's joy. It's about stealing joy from the teeth of turmoil. It's about getting tired of constantly doubting and hating

yourself and embracing self-love and love of your community um it's about banding together with my it's 16 women on that record 16 women 10 songs six days three chosen brothers and we made it at the old A&M studios which is now Henson. So presided over now by Kermit the Frog. The reason, by the way, that I play banjo, just as an aside. It's just the truth. But the old A&M is where Joni recorded Blue and Court and Spark. It's where Carole King recorded Tapestry. And it's where 15 brilliant artists, all women and I,

got together and made The Returner in six days. Alison Russell there from our live programme at Glastonbury. If you missed the programme, you could listen back by going to BBC Sounds and searching for Woman's Hour. That's all from me this afternoon. I'll be back on Monday where we'll reflect on Woman's Hour's first live broadcast from Glastonbury. And we'll be hearing from the feminist band the Nova Twins. Anita caught up with them ahead of their performance to discuss their love of the festival and their unique bond.

Do join me on Monday from 10. Until then, have a great weekend. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.