Woman's Hour - Weekend Woman's Hour: Women and Equalities Minister, Rachael Denhollander & USA Gymnastics, Betty Boo

Episode Date: March 12, 2022

Why in 2022 is there no position in the Cabinet solely dedicated to the job of Women and Equalities? Why is it always tagged onto another cabinet role? We hear from Amber Rudd who juggled the job of being Home Secretary, while she was also Work and Pensions Secretary and from Shadow Women and Equalities Minister Anneliese Dodds, who's also Chair of the Labour Party.There have been elections in India this week and one journalist who’s been covering them is Rana Ayyub. She’s an Indian, Muslim journalist who writes for the Washington Post but she’s based in Mumbai. At the moment she’s under extreme pressure because of her work. She's experiencing serious online abuse, so much so that international monitoring groups worry that her life is in danger.Anne Dickson's book, A Woman In Your Own Right: The art of assertive, clear and honest communication, was first published 40 years ago. It has been in print ever since. Anne outlines the skills and techniques she pioneered and why they are still relevant today.Our TV screens are full of Ukrainian refugees - mainly women and children - who are fleeing their country. However, we're increasingly seeing women who are staying. We hear from the Ukrainian MP, Inna Sovsun.In 2016 Rachael Denhollander became the first woman to publicly accuse the USA Gymnastics doctor Larry Nassar of sexual assault. Rachael talks about her fight for justice and the impact on elite gymnastics culture.The singer and songwriter Betty Boo is back. The platinum success artist made a name for herself in the 1990s for her unapologetic attitude, and combination of Pop and Hip Hop music. Betty Boo has now released her first solo single in almost three decades.

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Hello and welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour. This is the show where we offer you some of the best and must-hear interviews from across the week just gone. In today's programme, you'll hear from Betty Boo, the singer and songwriter, 90s pop icon, is making a comeback. The psychologist and writer Anne Dixon on the importance of assertive language. And we meet Rana Ayyub, the Indian Muslim journalist who is risking her life for her work. But first, how much do you know about the Minister for Women? It's currently Liz Truss, who is also our Foreign Secretary. Before that, she was International Trade Secretary. Why is the job of Minister for Women and Equalities always tagged

onto another cabinet role? Nicky Morgan did the job as well as being Education Secretary. Penny Mordaunt did it while she was Defence Secretary. On International Women's Day, Emma spoke to Amber Rudd, who juggled being Women and Equalities Minister as well as Home Secretary, and Annalise Dodds, who is the present Shadow Women and Equalities Minister and Chair of the Labour Party. Emma started by asking Amber Rudd about the purpose of the Minister for Women role. Well, it's to be champion for issues to do with women inequalities. And it has a small department which used to move around with whoever was minister. So under education for a while, it was an education.

And then it moved, I think, to work and pensions. These poor people trying to do women inequalities being made to move their jobs around to different departments. Then it settled in the cabinet office. But it's the same, I think, as any cabinet job in a way, which is you are the champion of your subject. So women in equality is champion. You sit around in cabinet, is the women in equality's minister. But I do think that as a side hustle, it doesn't really work.

And I would just add to your point, Emma, that Liz Truss also has international aid that was also folded into the Foreign Office. And then, of course, when David Frost resigned, she was asked to solve the Northern Ireland Protocol. So the idea of having time to do women and equalities as well is just impossible, just reinforces the point that we should have a separate role and an independent minister.

And why hasn't that happened? It hasn't happened, I think, because it hasn't been a priority. I mean, you look at the cabinets that we've had recently over the past few years, Boris Johnson and indeed Theresa May have formed their own cabinet roles and put people into them. So there is the machinery that can be done. But of course, we had a Brexit secretary, which is now gone. And then we had DFID, International Development, which has been folded into the Foreign Office, International Trade, which Anne-Marie Trevelyan does. So a prime minister can move around and set up different departments and have different people

in cabinet. But I think it's a question of priorities. And I think that's why it's important to talk about it, to say women inequalities are not getting a fair voice. We need to have it as a separate cabinet role with its own campaign, budget and champion. Let's just bring in at this point, Anneliese Dodds, who is in the position in the shadow cabinet. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for joining us today. What do you see as the priorities? We're getting lots of messages in here about what should be top of the entree if any of our listeners got the chance. What's at the top of yours? Well, I would just say, first of all, that that entrée has much greater prominence within the Labour Party because we don't just have a shadow minister for women and equalities. We're determined that this must be a Secretary of

State position, one which does have that elevated status because of the critical importance of women and equality for women and for other protected groups. In terms of what would be at the top of the entry, my goodness, it's an absolutely massive one at the moment. I mean, what we've been pushing on today has particularly been around economic equality. I mean, we know that women ultimately are going to hold the key to our country's economic success in the future. But we also know that right now, for example, we've got eight out of 100, 1,100 chief executive officers being women, very low numbers on company boards. And then also we know that when it comes to small businesses, that women tend to get much less finance than men.

So we set out a bunch of different proposals to achieve very speedy reform there so that women really can play that full part in the recovery. You know, even things like, for example, equal pay. We actually saw the pay gap getting bigger last year, very disturbingly. You know, the rate of change has closed down. If you let women compare across businesses, not just in the business where they work, but across businesses, that would really turbocharge that drive towards more pay equality. But you were the former chancellor. In fact, the last time I had you on, I think that's the position you were in, shadow chancellor, I should say, excuse me. And you've gone straight to finance, which perhaps is a sign of your expertise and some of those roles that you've had, as well as the importance of it. And when we asked the government, and of course, I should say we invited and made strenuous efforts to have a minister on this morning, and we don't have one here on Women's Hour and International Women's Day. When we asked why there isn't a dedicated

women's minister job, a spokesperson told us action on equality cannot be delivered in silo. And what you just said, perhaps speaks to those who believe this role, and we'll come to how it fits into today's agenda, if you like, is very powerful when it's twinned with another post, because you can bring in the discipline of that post. And in your case, if you'd stayed a shadow chancellor and had women inequalities, perhaps that could have been turbocharged. Well, but you have to have the posts pushing in the same direction, so that you've got that clear accountability for women's equality and that's where I think the current government does have a big challenge. I mean for example during women and equalities questions that's the time in the House of Commons when MPs can raise

issues related to this brief. Now I've asked time and time again about why in my view and the view of many Labour women far too little has been done at the moment to tackle domestic abuse and violence against women and girls. And I've not had the core officeholder for the government respond to those questions once. Now, sometimes that's been because, you know, quite legitimately, as Foreign Secretary, obviously, she has been very, very engaged, quite rightly so in the current international crisis. But I think it does highlight that, you know, okay, it makes sense when there's that clear read across when it makes sense to be having those different responsibilities,

but when they're going to be pulling in different directions, so that women's issues get lost. That's not good enough. And I think we've seen that, as I said, with violence against women and girls in particular. Sorry, I was just going to say, in the role, to be clear, when you go and ask those questions, you've never once, while you've been in this position, been able to put them to the Minister for Women and Equalities, Liz Truss. So she has been on the bench. She's been sat on that bench, but it's not been her who's answered those questions. And, you know, I really do think that right now, when we've got such a high level of reported crimes of that type and such appallingly low levels of prosecutions, that this has got to be a priority for government. You know, it is a priority for the opposition. We are working as a team. You've got another job. You've got two jobs. So you say it's a priority. You're chair of the Labour Party as well.

The Labour Party seems to be structuring it as well that you have an additional job. The difference, Emma, is that they don't pull in different directions. That's what I'm saying. So I've always been there for those women inequalities questions. And when I've been chair of the Labour Party, a lot of what I've been focused on has been about ensuring equality. So we've completely overhauled our complaints processes, for example, particularly focused on combating sexual harassment. That's been radically changed since I've been in post. We've also made sure that we've changed our selection processes radically as well so that it should really help women.

And I've been doing that working with the Labour Women's Network. So, you know, much of what I've been doing has been pushing in the same direction. The problem is when. When it diverges. You have someone undertaking. Exactly. That's how you see that. Amber Rudd, you were going on to say

at the beginning of your answer with regards to Liz Truss, she can't possibly be doing this work in the way that she would hope to. No, she can't because she's just got so much on her plate. And actually, the woman who shows us how to be a real champion for women in equality is constantly raising the subject, constantly challenging the government on this, is the chair of the Women in Equality Select Committee, Caroline Oakes.

She really shows the leadership that's needed from a minister in terms of making it a priority and constantly worrying at it. And to Anne-Lise, I would say, if I may say, lovely to see you, Anne-Lise, is you do have two jobs. On the other hand, it is completely different because she's in opposition. Being in opposition is not obviously the same as being in government when you're actually having to do stuff. So I imagine she could she can manage it. But I mean, I would hazard that if we had a Labour government, they would then separate that off so that the Secretary of State for Women and Equalities could give it all their attention. Because when you're in government, you're just you're driving the car. When you're opposition, you're just looking at it.

Annalise Dodds, to come back to you, there's a message here, which I thought you'd be interested to respond to as the shadow women and equalities. A message that says, I didn't know there was a women's minister. And it's frankly embarrassing that there is. It's an admission that women are such an inferior and downtrodden section of society that they actually need specific representation like children or some minority vulnerable group. How can we ever expect to be treated as equals by men when we're admitting that we need assistance

that's not offered to men? Annelies Dots. Well, with a lot of respect to that listener, and I'm a listener myself, so I fall in the same category, but I'm afraid I just don't agree agree I think it is important to have one person who is accountable ultimately for driving forward equality and you know we've waited for decades indeed centuries to be valued as much as men a lot of the time we've waited for decades and centuries to see male violence towards women

and girls dealt with you know I'm not prepared to wait any longer and centuries to see male violence towards women and girls dealt with. You know, I'm not prepared to wait any longer. I want to see action. You know, we have got a team there, but you need to have one person who ultimately is accountable for driving that change. Because ultimately, you know, what isn't measured and what isn't associated with one person very often just simply isn't going to get done, I'm afraid. Amber Rudd, for you, what was the greatest achievement as Women's Minister? What were you actually able to do? A few questions around that. OK, well, there were a number of things that I put forward as Women's Minister when I was Home Secretary and Work and Pensions Secretary.

I recall particularly when we were removing, trying to repatriate really, refugees from the jungle in Calais, which had 10,000 refugees in it. And we'd agreed to take nearly a thousand. Some of them were children. And I remember sitting down with my officials and saying, we're going to take the teenage girls first because we know they're being trafficked. And my official said, no, no, we can't possibly do that. We have to approach this under the law with an approach to equality, men and women together. And I said, but the women are most vulnerable. And so we redefined how we were going to approach it on the basis of vulnerability, not on the basis of sex.

And I think you had to have cared about women's safety to make that difference. Amber Rudd and Annalise Dodds speaking with Emma earlier in the week. Now, there have been elections in India this week, and one journalist who's been covering them is Rana Ayyub. She's an Indian Muslim journalist who writes for The Washington Post, and she's based in Mumbai. At the moment, Rana is under extreme pressure because of her work. She's experienced serious online abuse and had police charges filed against her. Rana

says it's because she's an outspoken critic of the Indian government, the Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, and the way Muslims are treated in the country. When I spoke to Rana, I started by asking whether she feels safe where she currently is. Well, Anita, that's a question that I've been asking myself for a while. And I don't think that, I mean, no, I don't feel safe to answer your question point blank. I mean, just about a couple of days ago, the International Center for Journalists led by Dr. Julie Passetti and the Sheffield University analyzed 8.5 million tweets against me. to me and most of them were targeted at me and my family and abusive. And they called me a prostitute, a jihadist, an Islamist. And exactly four days ago, the Mumbai police where I stay has arrested four people for sending death and rape threats to me. And these are explicit death threats to me. They also have seemed to have my address. So I don't know how does one feel safe given the circumstances.

You know, your image is kind of photoshopped with the image of leaders. In 2018, when the UN wrote to the Indian government, it was when I got a message from a BJP leader, somebody who was from the ruling party, where my image was morphed on a porn video, a deep fake, and that was circulated all over the country. They say one has to pay the price of independent journalism, but the price that I have had to pay has been grossly unjust. And it's an everyday occasion for me. You mentioned the word, I've never come across this word before, prostitute, obviously a take on the word prostitute.

And that's something specifically used towards you and journalists in India. That's right. I mean, it was used by one of Mr Modi's ministers a couple of years ago where he coined the term press and prostitutes to come to bring the word prostitutes to in a way discredit women journalists, as it is, you know, when there's a patriarchal setup,

you know, they are treated with, I mean, the worst form of discrediting a woman journalist is cast aspersions on her character. And that's exactly what you allude to when you use the word prostitute. So how are you protecting yourself? Honestly, it's not the physical protection that really bothers me, Anita. It's more the mental health that actually gets to me because at the end of the day, they do not as much.

I mean, it's more about making you doubt your own self. I mean, the last three weeks when another campaign was unleashed against me and my family uh where i was on on state-enabled news channels 24 7 um and there was media standing outside my house and there were people in civil clothes asking the kids in the building to identify where do i stay um you just you just kind of lose hope and lose faith and you see your family being tormented. Of course, my family has been a stellar support. But you do feel isolated given the way the Indian media has self-censored itself. And there seems to be a lack of solidarity, which I might have expected.

So you don't feel supported by fellow journalists? I do not feel supported by mainstream journalists in India who are not vocal enough. I mean, of course, they will send me text messages and call me and saying, we're there for you. But when it comes to publicly, you know, expressing themselves against using of the state machinery to target me, I think they have been silent. But you speak on a international platform and do you think uh that that and you much of what you you're writing is for an american publication potentially embarrassing the indian government and the prime minister on a world stage do you think that is a big part of the problem i think that is one of that is that is not just a big part of the problem but it's also um a big safety net for me because

i write for international publications and the government knows that the world is but it's also a big safety net for me because I write for international publications and the government knows that the world is watching. It's not just, I mean, I got profiled by the New Yorker and the Time and the Atlantic and to write for the global opinions of the Washington Post. So the government takes it very personally. I mean, the entire attack against me the last one year started when I wrote a cover on the Time magazine about the devastating COVID second wave in India, where I held Modi complicit for it. And ever since this attack on me has started, where I have been called and labelled an international agent

who is out to discredit India. So yes, I mean, while that is the reason for the backlash, I do see it as a big support for me on my physical safety. I mean, you're one of India's best known investigative journalists. And there are some who say that you've made yourself the story and that they don't like that. And what is that like where you become the story? The unfortunate bit is, I mean, so many of us hate ourselves to be the story. But when you are under relentless attack by the government and its state machinery,

when you also happen to be a Muslim that happens to be the most persecuted community in India, then you will talk about your experience as a Muslim. That's a lived experience. And that is something that journalists across the world have shared to enrich the personal. And at this point of time, when there's absolutely lack of solidarity, I will have to speak up for my own security and my own safety. It's like a lot of my colleagues have literally thrown me under the bus. They would not speak for me. But when the international media speaks for me, they say, oh, she's becoming the story. But unfortunately, that's the only way I get protected. And you do have very credible organizations on your side the UN in Geneva has written to the Indian government a number of times saying that they've concerns about a deliberate and

sustained campaign of harassment against you by what they call governmental and non-governmental actors and they say it's intensified because of your advocacy work for the Muslim minority in India and they're concerned about the numerous threats against your life, must be reassuring to get their support. It is. I mean, the same people who say that I myself become the story all the time, when the UN gave out a statement to the Indian government, the headlines in the Indian media was not that the UN writes to the Indian government. The headline was that the Indian government lashes out at the UN. But again, that's a huge support. I'm glad the UN writes to the Indian government. The headline was that the Indian government lashes out at the UN. But again, that's a huge support.

I'm glad the UN is by my side. And the attacks against you are because you're an investigative journalist. It's because you're a Muslim. It's because you're a woman. So phrases like prostitute and the horrific death threats and rape threats. Is it true that you wrote a letter to be published in case of your death? I did. I did. I left a letter with my brother and a friend of mine just in case something were to happen to me. I wanted the letter to be published across newspapers because that's a

legit fear that I have. And that's a legit fear that I had a couple of days ago. And what have you written in the letter? Sorry? What did you write in the letter? Sorry? What did you write in the letter? It's painful. It's extremely painful. It's a letter of dejection. It's a letter of hopelessness where I have lost faith and not just the government of the day,

but the people in my country and my fellow journalists. And that's to sum up the letter, in case something was to happen to me. And Rana, I also read that your 75-year-old father suggested that you will leave the country. Would you? Would you consider leaving if you're under so much threat? No, I would never, yes. My 75-year-old father, who's also been made a co-accused in my case,

who suffers from dementia, but he does, he's extremely proud of my work and he has suggested that I leave the country. But the point is, there are a lot of people in the country who place great trust in me and me leaving the country at this point of time would be a betrayal of their faith in me and my journalism. So that is not an option that I would like to consider. I was speaking with the journalist Rana Ayyub. Now, have you ever started a sentence with the words, I hope you don't mind me saying this, or would you mind, or I'm terribly sorry to trouble you,

but these are just a few of the classic phrases we often use when we fail to ask for something or express what we want clearly and directly. The psychologist, counsellor and writer Anne Dixon is all too familiar with these patterns of behaviour in women. Anne has spent over four decades teaching the art of assertive communication. Her book, A Woman in Your Own Right, was first published in 1982 and a new updated edition has just come out. Emma spoke to Anne earlier this week and started by asking her to define what assertive language is. What it is, is clear, direct communication, and it is not aggressive. That's the important thing.

It's very much as an equal. So you don't override somebody else, you don't diminish, you don't belittle somebody else, but you approach somebody with your needs as an equal to somebody else's needs. And so it does mean you need to take responsibility for what you want and be clear about it. Is there a good example you could share in a, I don't know, you have many contexts in your book. There's personal context, there's work context, but of somebody being assertive and not being assertive. Could you could you share that? If you imagine you want, you've been criticised by somebody, and none of us like being criticised, but if you are criticised and you're given a label, for example, like, you know,

you're very uncooperative, then one option, which is not the assertive option, is to react very strongly to that and be defensive about it or to attack the other person and find fault with them. So it gets into a little bit of a battle. Or you could say, I'm not really sure. I'm not sure about being uncooperative. It feels too general. I'm interested in what you want to say, but can you be more specific? And that's just one example. So you keep the gate open. You keep a conversation going rather than shutting it. But you're not mincing your words either. You're speaking clearly about your feeling or your reaction to what's being said.

You're engaging with it. Absolutely. That's essential. It's essential. And bringing your feelings in is a very important part, because if we don't, it tends to distort our body language, all the gestures, tone of voice, the way we look at somebody, our posture, all that kind of thing. Because that actually counts for three quarters of what we communicate, not just the words. Do you think we still need to learn how to do this as women? Because I'm minded of the fact that since you wrote your book, we have things like social media, Instagram, filled with, you know, confidence mantras, people saying all sorts of seeing is believing, her story, these sorts of slogans that are there, showing in some ways that women perhaps do have more confidence? In some ways we do, but what is missing is still a knowledge of how to deal with things when they happen. It's one thing to feel confident on social media and to promote an image. But whatever age you are, you're still faced with an inherited situation.

Say, for example, you have a woman at the top of her profession, maybe she's a doctor, and she's very confident, achieved a great deal, very successful, but she can be faced with a male colleague or male boss and still find herself being intimidated. Why? Because the man will never have had any doubt about his right to be at the top of the ladder because he's got centuries of tradition behind him. But she can still feel intimidated. She can still feel awkward. She can still not know what to say. And a younger woman who's been brought up with a much more equal sense of gender in education can arrive in a job and not know how to deal with somebody patronising her or asking her to do errands rather than what she's paid to do. And it's not knowing. It's one of the most empowering things to be able to know how to deal

with it in the situation. How do I speak differently? How do I stand? How do I approach differently? And that's what was in the book 40 years ago, and it's still in the book now. You've got a whole chapter on sex and love and how to speak in those circumstances assertively. Yes, that's right. I mean, it's very much to do with relationship. And I think relationships have taken quite a toll, not only with our culture, which doesn't really value relationship very much because it can't audit it, but also, you know, with recent experience of lockdown, I think we have become, it's easy to become remote and to communicate remotely, but that doesn't help relationships. And in close relationships with friend and family, we still have a choice. You're right, it's not only work. How do you approach somebody? How can you build a relationship rather than separate? How do you deal with a criticism? How do you change a pattern in a friendship or a partnership? It's really hard to do unless you know that there

are skills to do it. So assertiveness is entirely based on relationship, how to keep the relationship strong and deal with all those problems in between. The psychologist Anne Dixon offering some advice to make the most out of our relationships. Now, the UN says over two million refugees have now fled Ukraine since Russia invaded. Our TV screens are full of Ukrainian refugees, mainly women and children, who are fleeing their country. But there are also women who are staying and either have no choice or want to take active role in the war. Women have been prominent among Ukrainian civilians fighting Russian forces. Well, Emma spoke to Ukrainian MP Inna Sovtsyn on why she thinks some women are choosing to stay in the

country. I think it is understandable. It is our land and leaving your house is an extremely difficult decision. I do understand many women who did leave in order to take their children to safety. That is an absolute normal thing to do. I have to be honest with you, the moment I heard the first bombs exploding over the city of Kiev, the first thing I needed to take. I have to be honest with you, the moment I heard the first bombs exploding over the city of Kiev, the first thing I needed to take care of is to make sure that my son is relocated to safety. I called his dad and we had a pre-arranged agreement that in case the war starts, given that I'm a member of parliament and I cannot leave the city, he would have to take care of that. So that's an absolutely normal thing to do. But overall, I do understand it's extremely difficult.

It's extremely emotional. And it's also something that the decision that no one should be taking in their lives. But many women had to take this decision. They need to take care of their children. But many more are staying. And they're staying for many reasons. Some are staying because they simply don't know how to live. Some are in those sieged cities,

like the city of Mariupol is just a humanitarian catastrophe there. I have a fellow member of parliament whose sister, with her six-year-old son, are in Mariupol. They were not able to get in touch with them for five days now. And recently they called and they said that the situation over there is terrible. People don't have not just food. They're running out of water. They don't have any heating.

That is just terrible. And that is why they cannot leave and protect their children. And many people are staying because they are living in relatively safe areas. But then many are staying because they want to protect the city and they need to stay in order to be useful. So people are making different decisions based on one single goal. We all are doing everything possible to survive and to make sure that our country can stand against this aggression. Yes, I was reading in some of your comments that you had said as a member of parliament, leaving would be the wrong signal, recognition of defeat exactly exactly i couldn't do that and i knew that in advance like i said

i'm divorced with the father of my son but we we had an agreement that in case the war starts he will be relocating our son despite the fact that in most cases women would be doing that job but i couldn't do that I'm a member of parliament. I'm serving my people. We've also been seeing and reading that women MPs have been given guns to arm themselves. Well, you know, men as well have also been given guns. But we're talking specifically about, I suppose, women's role here on Women's Hour. Have you been given one?

Is there training? We have all been given guns both men and women there were some differentiations in terms of which kind of guns were given to men or women uh but we were all provided with guns the very first day for a couple of hours after we had an emergency session of the parliament we didn't get much training about that we are trying to learn to use that now i'm actually feeling uh sorry right now because my boyfriend was always saying that probably i should teach you how to shoot and i would always say i would never need that i would never be in a situation where i would need to know how to use a gun but uh well now we have to learn to do that i still hope that the russians would not be able to get into the city of kiev uh but if they do we will all learn to do that. I still hope that the Russians would not be able to get into the city of Kiev.

But if they do, we will all have to do everything in our power to protect the city. As of now, my main weapon is talking to people. That is what I'm concentrated on. But if talking doesn't help, if explaining to the world doesn't help, I will have to defend my city by myself as well, just like thousands of Ukrainian men are doing right now, and women actually in the army. Yes, women are part of armed forces all around the world. Women do fight, but it's still

a relatively, it's always the minority of armed forces. It's still never equal most of the time in most countries. Of course, where there's conscription, it's different. And I suppose that site, when we have been hearing about women and children, is an image that will capture people's imaginations. Yes, it is. And well, first of all, I have to say that Ukrainian army does have a relatively large proportion of women in the army, up to 18% or something, women, which I am particularly happy about. I'm deeply involved in gender issues, and I was fighting for gender equality. And we did, within the last eight years of war with Russia, we did remove many of the barriers that women had before

in order to serve in the army. They were allowed to hold all the positions, which they didn't have access to before. So many women uh were actually serving in the army in the previous eight years of war in donbass and many more are joining now i heard this um heartbreaking story of uh because it's not just in the army it's also the law enforcement there are many women in police right now and i've heard this this hard-breaking story of a young female policeman who uh i think a week before she uh before the war started she learned that she was pregnant

and she went to a doctor and asked to have an abortion because she wanted to continue serving her country as a policewoman and and the last i've heard of this story because i knew that through the doctor's network, was that she was contemplating whether she should have an abortion or not because she wanted to have a child, but at the same time, she was not sure if that is the best choice.

And she had to make this impossible choice of whether to have a child or to continue serving our country. And I think for the time being, she decided to try to have a baby, but the situation is getting tense and she doesn't feel secure. But that is the kind of choices

that women in the army and law enforcement can be facing now as well. Yeah, I think it's important to raise those roles in law enforcement because the women have been serving in those for a long time now. And those sorts of choices and those sorts of stories

illuminate the reality right now. You say you hope you don't have to use your gun. You hope by using your voice as a way of avoiding that and as a weapon, if you like, to try and fight back is the way to fight back. Where are you feeling? What are you feeling about the hopes of that being a success? Are you feeling that people around the world, that the leaders are listening?

I suppose I'm asking how optimistic are you that you won't have to use your gun? I try to remain realistic in that sense. What we are seeing for now in Ukraine, inside, the Russians cannot really proceed any further. Their major convoys have been stalled by the Ukrainian army and they cannot proceed and they cannot be fighting Ukrainian army because as it turns out Ukrainian army is actually stronger than the Russian one except for the air

that is where they have the superiority but on the ground Ukrainian army is actually pushing them further from the territories that they captured in the first couple of days of war so that has given me hope. They didn't manage to get any closer to Kiev than they got like six, seven days ago. That has given me hope.

Of course, it all now is up to gaining superiority on the sky. That is why everywhere I talk, any interview I give, I always say that the primary issue right now is protection of the sky, establishing a no-fly zone by another country or bloc, or helping us establish a no-fly zone with the fighter jets that can be provided to the Ukrainian pilots. That is what we're asking for, because as soon as we get superiority or at least equal footing on the sky, we can fight them on the ground. I truly, truly believe that. And I know what the army is doing here in Ukraine, Ukrainian army.

But the sky is, of course, that's where the Russians are gaining most of their superiority. They're just bombarding random cities all over Ukraine. Just today in the morning, I heard another bombardment, which killed five people in one bomb drop in a residential area. Two of those are babies under one year old. That is what they're doing. And that is why we need protection from the sky so very badly. Ukrainian MP speaking with Emma Innesovson.

Now, in 2016, Rachel Den Hollander became the first woman to publicly accuse the USA gymnastic doctor Larry Nassar of sexual assault. Her stand led to hundreds of other women coming forward to tell their stories of how Nassar had also abused them under the guise of medical treatment, a situation that's been described as the biggest sex abuse scandal in sports history. Their testimonies, as well as the discovery of tens of thousands of child sexual abuse images on his computer, eventually led to his imprisonment.

Emma spoke to Rachel to hear about her experiences and started by asking the former gymnast if she felt prepared for how public this case would become. As a trained attorney, I was aware of what I would be fighting from a legal perspective and how investigations usually go. I understood that I would be fighting a major university in the United States and USA Gymnastics, the national governing body for our Olympic team who Larry worked for. I understood I'd be fighting all of those things. I understood the cultural perception. And at 17 years old, when I started to figure out what Larry was doing, I said to my mom at the time,

I can't do this alone. I have to have media pressure. Somebody is going to have to wrest control of the narrative from Larry and from the institutions surrounding him in order to be able to stop him. And so for 16 years, that's what I was waiting for. I was waiting for my chance to be able to take control of the narrative to meet Larry where he was most confident on the public stage and to show him irrevocably I was not going to blink. And so when I chose to come forward, I chose to come forward fully publicly with my name. I put the case together for the prosecutors. I brought it to the police and I laid out for them. This is how you can investigate this case. This is how you can try this case. And I chose to make my story and my face an international headline because I knew that's what was going to be necessary to stop not just Larry, but these institutions that had surrounded him. Were you nervous? I was terrified. I mean, no one wants to have an audience to their sexual abuse. And I think

that's something we need to grapple with as a culture is how do we start changing our justice system and our cultural understanding of abuse so that we don't put victims in a position where they have no choice but to relinquish every shred of privacy and dignity to have just a hope of stopping an abuser. He did go to prison and has received numerous sentences as things have developed and many, many more women came forward. And I think just it's important to clarify if people aren't familiar with this case, the abuse was done under the guise of medical therapy and trying to aid sports performance. You were 15, a child. When did you realise what he was doing was wrong? So there was a line he crossed when I was 16 that I knew was sexual abuse. But it really was years of researching what proper medical treatment should

look like before I was able to confidently really know how far it went. And I think that's something we have to grapple with culturally is how skilled abusers are, how well they're able to confidently really know how far it went. And I think that's something we have to grapple with culturally is how skilled abusers are, how well they're able to manipulate the society around them and the culture around them, and the way that they're able to groom their victims. We don't understand these dynamics well. And so we don't listen when children and women speak up. And we automatically have these cultural knee-jerk reactions of, that's not possible. And it's not possible because this person wouldn't be that kind of an abuser or sexual abuse doesn't look like this. When in reality, we're doing exactly what the abuser wants us to do.

And the things that we think are making it impossible for abuse to happen, those are the very dynamics that have created this framework for the abuse to take place. You competed in gymnastics at a state level in Michigan where Larry Nassar's base was, but he abused hundreds of girls and women up to the senior elite level. Of course, people may remember one of the most successful US gymnasts, Simone Biles, coming out to talk about what had happened. Did you have any idea of the scale of the abuse when you were starting to talk? Absolutely. Because once you understand the dynamics of sexual abuse, you know that predators don't just abuse one child. And so I was 100% confident that there were going to be hundreds of victims out there. I was very confident that we would find corruption in law enforcement, which is exactly what we found. Five different law enforcement offices were

involved in either covering up for Larry's abuse or horribly botched police investigations. And that's why I chose to come forward so publicly. And what it took, I think that's, again, culturally, we don't understand the incredible hurdle survivors face. And that's part of why I wrote my memoir, What Is A Girl Worth? is to help people see, look, this is what's going on behind the scenes. Look what it took to stop such a serial abuser. Look what was happening in law enforcement and in prosecution. And to really put a name and a face with these dynamics to help people start understanding what's really going on. And we love all these true crime dramas on TV, and we love these police shows. But what we've got to understand is there are survivors and victims on the other end of those dynamics, and law enforcement doesn't work

like it looks on these TV shows. And so to be able to put those dynamics out there for people to start grappling with and to understand, it's a fascinating story what it took to take Larry down. But it's also dynamics we've got to grapple with if we're going to make the necessary changes in our justice system and in our society, in our athletic organizations and our universities and our religious denominations to actually take a stand against child abuse and sex abuse. How did you feel when Larry Nassau went to prison? I am incredibly grateful for the justice that we received. Most survivors don't get that. And so I don't want to minimize the importance of that. At the same time, he's one individual. And as much as we want to say, oh, this is one bad apple,

the reality is that Larry was a product of an abusive system. He was a product of a cultural perception and understanding of what abuse looks like and what abusers look like. He was a product of organizations that had created abusive dynamics and silencing dynamics in the State University and in USA Gymnastics and just a community that does not understand what abuse looks like. And we've got to grapple with all of the things that caused and created Larry. No, of course, but I suppose for you, that must have been a moment. You know, it was. And again, I'm incredibly grateful for it. But it was also this realization of how much work is left to be done. We have taken care of one abuser.

And I said this in my impact statement, we have taken care of one abuser. We have not yet done anything about the systems that enabled him. And I can remove one person, but I can't do anything about the next predator that rises to take his place unless we dismantle the systems and the cultural perceptions that are enabling this kind of abuse. I mean, there have been high level departures with regards to this particular case. And it was, of course, at the heart of it, like you're saying, how USA Gymnastics dealt with this and allegations. But do you think enough has been done? Not nearly enough has been done because most of these organizations, there were individuals who resigned, but there has been no level of accountability and transparency for who actually knew what and when at either organization. There are people involved, coaches involved, administrators involved who were there during the time of Nassar's abuse who saw exactly the dynamics and the structure that were created in these organizations who are still in positions of power.

And there is still very much a push to say Larry was a bad apple and to not acknowledge the framework and the foundation and the culture that was the breeding ground for Larry's abuse and that enabled it for decades. I know that also forgiveness is a big part of you and how you work and how you feel. You said in your closing statement and another part, I pray you experience a soul crushing weight of guilt so that you may someday experience true repentance and true forgiveness. This is directed at Larry from God, which you need far more than forgiveness from me, though I extend that to you as well. How did you get to that place? I know that your faith is very important to you here, in fact, in the UK, at a talk organized on behalf of a Christian group, I believe. Yes, I'm here with all souls. And I'll be doing a lecture tonight, a question and answer session

with Pillar and Step, looking at some of those foundational concepts of who am I? What is my identity? Where does my value come from, especially if I've experienced abuse? What is forgiveness? What is justice? How do we hold those two things in tension? And so my faith is a very important part of that driving force and also my healing journey. How is that? Because we don't often hear a lot about what happens afterwards and how people are once they have come forward. The trauma from abuse lasts forever.

And I don't want to minimize that in any way, shape, or form. An incredibly important part of my healing journey was the ability to say, this is wrong, and I know this is wrong. And I found that in my faith and my moral compass. C.S. Lewis has this famous quote in Mere Christianity where he said, my argument against God was that the universe was so cruel and unjust. But where did I get this idea of just and unjust? A man does not know a line is crooked unless he first has some idea of straight.

And when I really grappled with that reality, that gave me the ability to say, I do know sexual abuse is wrong. I know what happened to me is wrong because I can see the straight line. I know justice is there. And if I can name what happened to me and I can grieve it in ways that are non-destructive and not feel like justice is dependent on the societal response I receive or validation for my abuse. That gives me the ability to name it without minimizing it or excusing it and to grieve it in ways that are non-destructive. And that's a foundational concept to healing. You've obviously had to do a lot of

thinking, a lot of talking about this. You've written about it. Just zooming out, if I may, I wonder where you've ended up with on the thoughts that you've had about the pressure in gymnastics still. We've seen the Russian athlete Kamila Valeva, the 15-year-old Russian ice skater at the Winter Olympics last month. She was allowed to compete despite failing a drugs test and then fouled up under the stress. She missed up on the top slot and we saw her coach then publicly berating her after the performance. How do you feel about the training of children? The way we train children in these elite institutions is just, it's abusive. There's

no other word for it. The level of verbal and emotional and physical abuse is incredibly damaging to our children. It literally reshapes their neurobiology. It damages their sense of self-worth, their sense of identity, their sense of normalcy and what's acceptable. And so many of these elite athletes, including in the UK, are coming out of gymnastics and coming out of ice skating. And they're talking about the impact this has had on them, the eating disorders and the suicidal ideations and the self-harm and just how their entire perception of reality was crushed by these abusive organizations do you think we'll get to a stage where we don't train children because of course some would argue you have to do that to make them win well i would say

if you have to abuse a child to reach an end goal you have the wrong i mean they wouldn't say sorry abuse a child but they have to do some of these tough sorts of conversations. I'm not describing it perhaps in the best way, but you get what I mean. Absolutely. So I think what we first have to do is say, what are we actually talking about? We're not talking about a tough conversation. All of us need tough conversations. We are talking about child abuse. The way so many of these coaches treat their athletes, the systems and the structures these organisations set up, it is child abuse. Emma speaking to Rachel Den Hollander. And if you would like to get in touch with the programme about anything you hear or would like to tell us about a story you'd like to share with Team Woman's Hour, then feel free to email us by going to our website. Now, our next guest found chart

success as a teenager, had a platinum selling debut album and has been credited as the inspiration behind the Spice Girls. Betty Boo is back. After nearly 30 years, the singer and songwriter has released a new single called Get Me to the Weekend. When I spoke to Betty yesterday, little 12-year-old me couldn't believe what had happened in her life. But I started by asking her why now felt like the right time for a comeback. I was approaching the big 5-0 and I just thought, you know, it's about time I released a record because I've always wanted to. And yeah, so here I am. You thought it was about time after 30 years because you have been very busy in the interim, haven't you? You've been writing, you've written lots of big pop hits for other artists, but that didn't satisfy the itch.

Well, yeah, it was a really good experience to do that. And I loved working with artists and I spent a lot of time in Los Angeles working with big writers. And also our family business is a film company, so I've been producing films and some music documentaries and things like that so uh yeah I've been really busy in the meantime but um but music actually just it's part of my DNA and I think uh what I used to do is is it's I don't know it's still really fresh I think um with the rapping and pop and everything combined.

So should we have a listen to the new single? OK. This is it. It's called I Can't Wait've done it again. That is it. I'm dancing. And it feels like the weekend. It is the weekend. It is, isn't it?

Gosh, already. I read somewhere that you said that this is the album you should have written 25 years ago. Yeah, I think, well, I came, I stopped completely because I lost my mother and at that time lost both my parents. So I just stopped everything to look after the rest of my family. And yeah, I just didn't really feel like a pop star anymore and um yeah so I just really wanted to um get get my life back and uh and do that so um being a pop

star takes a lot out of you I think especially later in age um but uh yeah yeah you you mean that is the reason reason you stopped your career because your mother was diagnosed with cancer, you took time out to look after her and you'd already lost an aunt and your father when you were 17 and you were looking after your grandmother and we talk a lot on this programme about grief and just reflecting on that time,

how much of it did you not want it to define who you are? Yeah, I mean, I had to do something. But listen, I just had to look after my family and that's all I cared about at the time. But I took up tennis and that became my thing to help me with my mental health. And I play every day and I have done for the last 25 years or so. So I urge anybody who needs something, just take up a hobby or a new sport or something, because it really does help keep your head on the right way.

Because you were thrust into the spotlight at such a young age. You were, what, 19 when Doing the Do came out? And, you know, and then Boomania, your album, hit platinum status. There's lots of conversations around at the moment about women in the music industry, even within the last five years, and the ownership of material, women's safety, control of image. And you've just mentioned mental health and you took a step back because something major had happened in your life so how do you

reflect on that time and what was happening with your own mental health at the time well grief is terrible uh i just remember feeling so it was so painful i mean i'm paying that I hadn't experienced before. And that took quite a lot of time to, you know, to help. I had to try and combat that. I had some therapy and that helped me. And still to this day, you know, I use those tools to help me. But, you know, I've got a very nice, happy family life now and I feel very lucky that I've come through it um so yeah I mean it's you really do have to work hard at it I think I think everybody would know

that if they suffered as well and you know the career that you were in as a young woman in the music industry you it was it's all or nothing it is yeah I mean especially I mean I was probably I was full-on I think with all the outfits and all that sort of stuff and you know I had to um I really didn't feel like that person anymore um so yeah I just now I feel like I can do it it feels it feels right and it's the right time and here I am. And very pleased we are that you are here. I also read somewhere that you said that you want to do it now because you feel women in their 50s are invisible.

Yeah, I remember watching a TV programme and there was a panel show and there were lots of women on the panel and one woman said that she just started to feel invisible invisible at um at 50 and I thought oh my gosh that's that's awful isn't it why why can't we all just go and do whatever we want to do and um do just just go and fulfill our ambitions and you know there's nothing stopping you. You really can achieve something later in life. And I feel like I had, yeah, part of me, at the back of my mind,

I felt like I don't want to be invisible. I don't want to be, I want to be 80 and still playing tennis, you know. And even that phrase later in life feels strange because 50 just doesn't seem it's just not old is it no and 50 what 50 was previously like now I'm thinking about you know the new sex in the city it's all about women in their 50s compared to someone put this comparison out when that came out that the golden girls were the same age as the women from sex in the city now it's just a completely different world now. And also when you're in your 50s, your children might have grown up and left home.

So what do you do? Yeah, no, exactly. And it's funny, I saw, I looked at a picture of me when I was two blowing out some candles on the birthday cake. And I was with my nanny, my grandmother. And she actually did look like a nanny okay because she was dressed that way and that's how people used to be and um you know it's a sort of a hangover from the war i guess um but now you know you can just look fantastic i mean look at look at madonna i mean she's still rocking it and i look at you look at you absolutely i've got to ask you about this brilliant video I discovered online of you at 17. You'd been to see Public Enemy in Shepherds Bush and then you clocked them in McDonald's on the way home and rapped for them.

I mean, honestly, everyone should Google this on YouTube. Just type in Betty Boo Public Enemy, it comes up. Tell me about this experience. Well, I went to see the big show. It was a Def Jam concert with all the big names in rap at the time, which was Public Enemy, LL Cool J, and Beastie Boys, Run DMC, blah, blah, blah. And anyway, so I was walking back home past Shepherd's Bush Green, and there they were in the McDonald's and me and my friends went in and

went hey right and we said hello and and they said oh so you guys you rappers and we said yeah sort of we were just rapping in our bedroom at the time really and they said do you want to do some rhymes and they started filming us, or me actually mainly, rapping some raps that I'd made up in my bedroom that day. And there it is on YouTube. Somebody's uploaded it and it's sort of kind of, I guess, the beginning of my rap career. Because they invited you to New York after that, didn't they?

Yeah, we made a record with them through a label called Music of Life and then yeah we went over there to do a tour and that was sort of I mean I was 17 I mean it's ridiculous really I mean my mum at the time was so unhappy with me. She knew that you were going? Yeah kind of I don't know I can't remember but um I left my A-levels and you know I was just I think because I just lost my father I think I was running away to be honest um and uh I was a bit of a rebel I guess uh but that was a great experience I would say that was more like um like an apprenticeship my apprenticeship into making music and being a performer. And they taught me a lot, actually, because they had such a strong image,

even though it was sort of quite militant, I guess. But they definitely, I mean, still to this day, they still do their tours and things when their image is the same. And when you see their image, you know it's them. So I think that really rubbed off on me when it came to doing my own music, that I needed to have a strong image and look different. And anyone who wants to be a pop star today, I would say, you know, you do have to just stand out and not be like anyone else. Was that your idea for the image, for the classic Betty Boo with the short skirt, the little top?

Where did that image come about? Was it something you sat down and thought about? These days, I guess you'd have an army of stylists. Yeah. Well, I was always fascinated with 60s clothes and I loved the Avengers. I loved Diana Rigg and I love Barbarella I love the sort of spacey sci-fi stuff and together with all the brilliant stuff that was on top of the pops

growing up in the 70s like the glam rock artists with their silver boots and silver you know they just they were just really out there and um but I used to have lots of stuff made for me because it's not stuff you could could find in Topshop for instance and then and then the Spice Girls were based on you and your look weren't they well apparently so yeah I mean um I I worked with um Chris Herbert who was the guy who discovered them um and uh he he said that that's what they were looking for in all five of them. There you go. The original Spice Girls singer and songwriter Betty Boo

and her new single is out now. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This podcast is sponsored by WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. If you're sending or spending money abroad, you should use WISE. You'll have up to 40 currencies in the palm of your hand. WISE gives you the real exchange rate, which means you'll spend less on fees and more of your money gets where you need it to be.

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