Woman's Hour - Weinstein conviction overturned, Fishing, Comeuppance, Ballet pumps

Episode Date: April 26, 2024

Harvey Weinstein, the disgraced Hollywood film producer, has had his 2020 rape conviction in New York overturned. The New York Court of Appeals has ruled that he did not receive a fair trial, because prosecutors called witnesses whose accusations were not part of the charges against him. The trial was pivotal in the #MeToo movement, the awareness campaign against sexual abuse. Katie Razzall, the BBC’s Culture and Media Editor, and Rowena Chiu, who claimed she was sexually assaulted in a hotel room by Harvey Weinstein when she was his personal assistant in 1998, join Anita Rani to discuss the impact of the new ruling. In 2012, Ashley Mullenger signed up for a fishing trip on the coast of Norfolk which would change the course of her life. Her memoir, My Fishing Life, follows her journey from a 9-5 office job, into the overwhelmingly male fishing industry, to becoming 'Fisherman of the Year', in 2022. Ashley joins Anita to talk about stormy weather, new and old boats, friendship on the water and her personal tale of self discovery and acceptance. As part of the returning noughties fashion trends, ballet pumps are back. The flat, round-toed leather shoes that can be worn with anything. But why are they back? And should we be embracing them or avoiding them? Fashion Editor at The Times Harriet Walker joins Anita to discuss.The Comeuppance is a new play on at the Almeida Theatre in London where five former high-school friends meet up, 20 years on, to reminisce and reconnect. Instead, they end up drinking, fighting and ruing the disappointments of their middle-aged lives. Ursula, Caitlin and Kristina are played by Tamara Lawrance, Yolanda Kettle and Katie Leung who all join Anita in the Woman’s Hour studio.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Donald MacDonald

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. On the programme today, we're going to get reaction to the news that disgraced Hollywood mogul Harvey Weinstein's 2020 rape conviction in New York has been overturned on the basis that he did not receive a fair trial. That's coming up. Also, I'm going to be joined by three actors who are in a new play, Comeuppance at the Almeida in London.

It's about a group of millennials who were best friends at school meeting up for their 20 year reunion. And they haven't seen each other for years. So, you know what I'd like to hear from you this morning. Your own school reunions with your old mates, please. Have you done it? Did you go? How did it go? Did you fall back into the same patterns,

the usual dynamics playing out? These people who've known you from your formative, most formative time in your life. They know your childhood drama. They've seen you at your most awkward. They know something real about you, maybe something you've moved away from, maybe your darkest secrets, your shame or your joy. These things can be comforting and they can be unnerving. Or did you meet them and it not go so well because people's life trajectories can go in very

different directions after all and human emotions like jealousy and envy can rear their annoying little heads? Are you someone who hasn't lived by society's conventions and dread the judgment of your childhood friends i mean there is so much to go on here and i cannot wait to read your messages so tell me about your school reunions how they went or how you feel about them you can get in touch in the usual way the text number 84844 you can email me via our website feel free to whatsapp me and if you fancy leaving me a voice note you can do that as well the number 03700 100 444 in fact my mother is currently with two of her school friends who've flown in from Denmark they reconnected after 50 years all of them having left India to marry men in different parts of the world.

And last time I checked in, they hadn't stopped giggling or drinking by the sounds of it. So 84844 is the number for your school reunion stories. Also on the programme, have you had a change of career or dreamt of doing something totally different? Well, Ashley Mullinger did. She quit her office nine to five to become, as she describes herself, a fisherman. And it's Friday, so I'm bringing you important fashion news.

Ballet pumps are back. That text number, once again, 84844, or feel free to email me via our website. We would love to hear your opinions and thoughts on anything you hear on the programme today. But first, Harvey Weinstein, the disgraced Hollywood film producer, has had his 2020 rape conviction in New York overturned. The New York Court of Appeals has ruled that he did not receive a fair trial

because prosecutors called witnesses whose accusations were not part of the charges against him. The trial was pivotal in the MeToo movement, the awareness campaign against sexual abuse which started going viral online after several women came forward, alleging Harvey Weinstein had abused them. Harvey Weinstein has always maintained his innocence. So what does this conviction being overturned mean? Well, joining me are Katie Razzell, the BBC's culture and media editor,

and Rowena Chu, who claimed she was sexually assaulted in a hotel room by Harvey Weinstein when she was his personal assistant in 1998. She did sign an NDA. Katie and Rowena, welcome to Woman's Hour. Katie, I'm going to come to you first. Let's begin by reminding ourselves of the background here. What happened? What was Harvey Weinstein found guilty of? And how long did he get? How long was he sentenced for? Well, hello, Anita.

He was sentenced in New York to 23 years in prison. That was back in 2020. He was convicted of sexually assaulting his former production assistant, Mimi Halei, in 2006, and also raping Jessica Mann, who is a former aspiring actress. That was back in 2013. Now, at the time, his defence team said sex between the movie mogul and the accusers had been consensual. And the conviction certainly was a landmark moment, as you were saying, in the Me Too movement. So back to today, then, what's happened with this conviction?

Well, as you said at the top, it's been overturned by New York's Court of Appeals. They've essentially said, as you said, he didn't get a fair trial because they've ruled that the original judge made mistakes, firstly in allowing other women whose accusations weren't part of this actual case to testify and allowing Weinstein to be cross-examined in a way the judges have decided portrayed him in a prejudicial light. Now, it is worth saying it was really close. Seven judges voted on this and it was four to three. And one of the judges who didn't agree, Judge Madeleine Singus, she talked about how afterwards, about how the appeals court was participating in a disturbing trend of overturning

juries' guilty verdicts in cases involving sexual violence. So what happens now? Well, what happens now is, is he going to be retried? That's what people are asking. You know, the prosecutors, Manhattan District Attorney's Office have said, you know, we'll do everything in our power to try and retry this case. And they've said they remain steadfast in their commitment to survivors of sexual assault. But clearly, you know, if you think about the survivors, we all know, you know, giving evidence in any court is very distressing, but giving evidence when it involves sexual assault is

horrendous for anybody. I would say at the best of times, but there never is a best of times, except perhaps that you're going to get justice. And clearly, if they want to get some justice now, those survivors are going to have to go back into, if they want to get some justice now, those survivors are going to have to go back into court if the trial happens and go through the whole painful thing all over again. And I would add to that, that I think there will also be arguments made by Weinstein's defence counsel about whether he can actually get a fair trial in New York. They'll be arguing potentially that they don't think that they should go to a retrial. I'm just going to read a statement from Arthur Idalla, who is Weinstein's lawyer. He said the decision was a victory for every criminal defendant in the state of New York,

adding, there are still people who are very unpopular in our society, but we still have to apply the law fairly to them at that trial. The law was not applied fairly to Harvey Weinstein. And as we know, as I said earlier, Harvey Weinstein has maintained his innocence and his defence team at the trial in 2020, said that sex between the movie executive and the accusers had been consensual, as he said. The 2020 trial, Katie, why was it so important at the time? Well, if you just remember back to the time,

for years before that, rumours had swirled about Harvey Weinstein, but they'd never seen the light of day. You know, he was just so powerful. He and his brother founded Miramax Films. They had hits. Everyone will remember Shakespeare in Love, but so many more. I mean, their films won more than 300 Oscars. So they were very powerful in Hollywood. He was very powerful in Hollywood. But these rumours had followed him for years. And finally, the edifice around him came crashing down. The trial was a culmination of years of painstaking work, painstaking journalism, conversations by these women who for years were terrified. And as we know, and I'm sure we'll

talk about, were forced to sign NDAs. And, you know, there were years of these allegations of horrendous behavior by Weinstein. And it felt to many as if the tides were turning, that sexual assault survivors were finally being listened to, finally getting justice. And now, of course, in the case of the two women involved there, if they're going to get justice, they're going to have to go through it all over again, as I said. What about the allegations made against him? Do they still stand? Well, I mean, of course, they still stand in the sense that they've been heard and there are so many women who have claimed that he assaulted them. And it is worth, of course, reminding people he does remain in prison because he was sentenced to 16 years last year for raping an Italian model and actress in a Beverly Hills hotel in 2013. So that was in the state of

California that he was tried there. So he will stay there for the moment. But, you know, the thing is, it's worth saying, his lawyers are also trying to appeal that case too. And if that case gets overturned, we could be in a situation where we see Harvey Weinstein freed from prison. Well, Ashley Judd was the first actress to come out and publicly accuse Harvey Weinstein. And she spoke to BBC News last night. Here's her response to the conviction being overturned. It's a hard day for survivors, but we live in our truth. We know what happened, and the truth is consistent.

You know, when Harvey sexually harassed me and then defamed and interfered with my economic and creative opportunities after I escaped him in that hotel room in 1996, I told anyone who would listen. I was filming Kiss the Girls at the time. I went straight to the set that night, told Gary Fleeter, the director, told the screenplay writer, told my agent, and no one listened. And there were all these systems that just not only tolerated but enabled him, both men and women at the time. And part of what's so important about the Me Too movement is that not only do

men who stay silent about other men's violence no longer tolerate that, but that we end impunity. And so there are all these forces at play. The institutional betrayal I mentioned earlier, and we need to have responses of institutional courage, which is actually a thing that lives at Stanford University, and people can check it out online. There is research based and data informed concrete steps that institutions take that respond to survivors with institutional courage. You know, oftentimes survivors say that the betrayal and the moral injury we suffer within the system is worse than the sexual body invasion we experienced in the first place. That was the actress Ashley Judd there. What other reactions, Katie, have people had to this news, particularly women who've alleged that he abused them?

Well, yes, I mean, just like Ashley Judd, people are saying, you know, it's tragic, it's a leap backwards for the rights of victims of sexual abuse by powerful men. You know, clearly there is huge disappointment here. The attorney who represented several of the survivors, including one of the ones featured in the New York case, called the ruling a move backward in the rule of law. Clearly, people have been condemning this decision as profoundly unjust. And I think what's interesting is clearly, at the time, this very much led, these stories led the Me Too movement. This was the culmination, if you like,

of the pinnacle, the person who kicked this, in a sense, was Harvey Weinstein. And now people are asking questions, you know, what impact will it have on the Me Too movement? And I noticed that Tarana Burke, who founded that movement originally, she said last night, it's not a blow, but it's a clarion call for Me Too. So people are talking about it, re-energising, you know, the movement. We know that a conviction like Harvey Weinstein's is unusual, that most sexual assault victims never see justice. We know that a conviction like harvey weinstein's is unusual but most sexual assault victims never see justice we know that's the case here in the uk and and is the case in

america too and across the world and that is because it is so hard to get conviction in these cases when it is he said she said normally usually with no witnesses um so in the case of this trial you know they weren't, they're now saying that all those people who gave evidence, who helped build a picture, which is what that evidence, that's what happened in the New York trial. And it's what sometimes happens in UK trials that other people help build a picture and help a jury to decide there is enough evidence against this person to convict them. And here in the UK, sometimes that kind of evidence is allowed,

that kind of bad character evidence. It just has to be argued ahead of the trial in court. But there is no doubt what's happened in New York does reopen a really painful chapter, I'd say, in America's reckoning with sexual misconduct by powerful figures. Also joining me is Rowena Chu, who is in California. Rowena, thank you for joining me. Welcome to Women's Hour. I would love to like to start by getting your reaction to the news. Yes, I think, as others have said before, it's obviously a very devastating day for Weinstein survivors specifically, but also for anyone who's spoken out on behalf of the Me Too movement. It does very much feel like a leap back.

I mean, in fact, I think for those who have spoken publicly, either in a court or otherwise in the court of public opinion, it almost feels like an old wound has been ripped open. So it was a day for me where I went through a maelstrom of emotions very similar to the day of the original verdict. I was by turns determined, but frustrated and angry and defeated all at the same time. And these conflicting emotions can feel incredibly overwhelming. But I'm encouraged by what people have said about the fact that this should be a carrying call. I myself have said the work is only just beginning. I hope that this will result in a call

for legal reform, because as others have said before me, I think the legal system, I find it staggering that more than 100 women have spoken out against Harvey. Those 100 women may represent several hundred more who are not willing to speak out. And yet, really, there are very few that are able to go through that legal eye of a needle where few women pass through and their cases can actually be heard. And I think that there is something very specific in New York law around millionaire witnesses that I think is not present here in California law. I've been consulting with lawyers today. So my understanding is that secondary witnesses and their background, bad character, is more allowable in California than it might be in New York. For me, I find that to be, you know, both encouraging and,

you know, I'm tentatively hopeful that California will hold. I was potentially both going to be a Molinier witness in the New York trial and actually came very close to testifying in the California trial. And of course, that situation around secondary witnesses is very personal to me. Because you offered testimony, as you said, to the New York trial, but you never got called to stand. Just from hearing you talk, it sounds like what you're experiencing is very visceral and people have mentioned elsewhere of the just the re-traumatizing of witnesses. How do you think the witnesses who did get offered testimony will be feeling today?

I can't imagine what they are feeling. The emotional cost, the financial cost, the personal cost of speaking at a trial like this, you know, really having your story up there on the stand, your credibility ripped know getting a conviction like this is incredibly rare so I think we felt at the time collectively even that these few women who were able to take the stand stood for the rest of us and when we got that incredibly rare victory it just was a moment where I don't think I can even replicate or describe the emotions we went through, the almost shock and disbelief at the idea that we had achieved this rare victory. But also the steadfastness of knowing that the rare victory might not be replicated, might be overturned, and really was only the beginning of a very long journey in terms of legal and policy reform that we were then going to go forward and push for. And so I think in some ways we've all been bracing for this moment because we didn't expect the verdict we got in the first place. We've always been tentatively terrified that it might be overturned. And so I think that accounts for some of that mix of emotion. And I was thinking a lot today of the women that actually took this down. I was thinking of my emotions of this visceral and this painful on this day, what must they be feeling? And therefore that question of,

will there be a retrial? And are they willing to go forward again and go through all that reformatizing, all that re-triggering to stand up and be judged in that way, often harshly, often negatively? I can't answer that for them, but I can't imagine making them or even asking them to go through that again. You signed an NDA with Harvey Weinstein and then went public with your story in 2019, but you decided not to bring a separate case. Why not? I wouldn't say I decided not to bring a separate case. I would say that I tried hard both to be involved in the criminal case. You know, as you know, I gave evidence both to the New York DA and the LADA and, of course, London were there to come forward as well. And so I worked to comply with all three of those criminal cases. And then we investigated the possibility of bringing a

civil case. It is incredibly difficult, I can say that firsthand. Both the statute of limitations is very limiting in many jurisdictions. For me, the statute of limitations had long passed in 1998. My story didn't resurface for 20 years. We looked at really creative legal solutions, like arguing that the NDA froze time on my ability to come forward with a civil case about my assault. And if the NDA, which was signed two months after my assault, froze time, we could essentially go back to that moment in 1998, two months after my assault, and I would fall within statute of limitations. Jurisdiction-wise, my assault took place in Venice, and so I would be subject to Italian law. We did actually consult with Italian lawyers to see whether it'd be possible to bring a case forward. But every legal door was closed to me. What do you think, Rowena, the impact will be on women coming forward in the future?

I think I want to allude to the many, many women I know who are Weinstein survivors who've not felt able to come forward with their stories, who remain silent today. As someone who did remain silent for two years, even after my story went public, but I wanted to keep my name anonymous, I'm really familiar with those feelings of not wanting to come forward for a myriad of reasons. Personal reasons, you know, my parents, my siblings, my best friends from college did not know of what had happened to me. Financial reasons, perhaps emotional reasons, perhaps even professional reasons. Many women don't come forward for fear of career repercussions. So for all of the women who think that the case for coming forward is minute compared to the mountain of reasons why they wouldn't go public. I can't imagine that this doesn't, you know, really represent a gut

punch, frankly, because it was already the case that it was incredibly difficult. And yet it seemed to be that these verdicts were glimmers of light in really centuries of darkness about women's rights. And yeah, this absolutely, if you are a woman who is sitting on a horrific story and struggling with decades of trauma about that, today is not going to be a day that will encourage you to change that situation. Rowena Chu, thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us this morning from California. And also Katie Razzell, thank you, who's the BBC's culture and media editor. 84844, if you would like to get in touch with your thoughts and opinions. Just to tell you, the New York Court of Appeals ordered a new trial and their statement says that the original had been prejudiced by witnesses

with claims unrelated to the charges at hand. And lawyers for the victims said that the decision to retry the case was a leap backwards and tragic. Lots of you getting in touch with stories about your reunions because we're going to be talking about a play which is based around a school reunion Liz says I met up with my uni friends Tina Sarah and Jenny 20 years after saying goodbye to them on the last day of uni now we meet up four times a year and have supported each other through some really tricky times I'm so grateful we got in touch the friends you make at uni are different to any other friends you make during your lifetime um another message

here from claire says coincidentally today my twin sister and i are spending the weekend oh sorry one second uh the weekend with our oldest friend uh sheree big cheeks in brackets who we've known since we were four years old now nearly 60 we all attended a convent primary school as identical twins we tended to share our school friends like a twin sandwich and have stayed in touch throughout our life even though we may not see each other often whenever we get together it's as if moments have passed not years and from Claire and Jew I should say keep your messages coming through now in 2012 Ashley Mullinger signed up for a fishing trip off the coast of Norfolk. She didn't know at the time that it would change the course of her life.

Her memoir, My Fishing Life, follows her journey from a nine to five office job into the overwhelming male fishing industry to become Fisherman of the Year 2022. The book includes stories of stormy weather, new boats and old boats and friendship on the water but it is also a tale of self-discovery and acceptance and quite a remarkable woman at the heart of it. Welcome Ashley, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi Anita. Thanks for having me. It's absolutely my pleasure. I couldn't wait to speak to you. Before we get into it, though, fisherman? Yeah. Go on, what's your... Is it right? I choose to say fisherman purely because it's respect for the predominantly male catching sector that's gone before me

and worked hard and in some cases given their lives for putting fish on tables and I'm not about to breeze in and take that away from them um ultimately I love what I do you could call me anything you wanted and as long as I'm doing the job it wouldn't matter why did you decide to write this book oh well so many reasons it's congratulations by the way thank you because it's a big deal to write a book I'm gonna I've got it here look in my hands there we go we've both got it yes um why why why did I write the book well I've I've been in the industry six years and in those six years I've learned a lot about how the industry actually works and where it's been, where it is now and where it's going. And I felt that I wanted to tell the story of the fish in the sea and the people who go out and catch it.

As I don't think that there's anything for the public that's ever been done like this, because the fish in the sea are an asset of this country. And what's happening with them, how we take them from the sea, it's just never been spoken about before. So that's one of the reasons. Another reason is there is a lot of comedy of errors that happened quite frequently when you own a boat. And a lot of the time the skipper and I just say oh you couldn't write this it's funny yeah and it's a love story isn't it it is it's a it's a it's a love story of the sea it's a love story in boats and we need to go back to what I opened with that you this is not something you grew up with it was not on the

agenda it was never your dream as a child you were office job nine to five what happened I went out on a charter angling trip and just being out there I fell in love I fell in love with the environment and I think a lot of that was because I'd come from an office where I was constantly getting phone calls emails people saying oh Ash can you do this? Can you do that? Or can you solve this problem for me? And then I went out to sea and all of that just goes and you're completely isolated. And I think having that calmness and the environment being the only thing that's really important just resonated with me. And then the skipper just couldn't get rid of me

so what was it about it that made you fall in love with it because i have been on a few fishing expeditions in my other line of work but sunday night um and it's extreme it is it's not for the faint-hearted it's a certain lifestyle it's lonely it. It's cold. Yet extreme weather. So what was it that made you fall in love? I think when I sat in an office, I think I relied quite a lot on my own mind just to propel me through the day. Whereas now, not only am I relying on my mind, but every muscle in my body is important. And I feel like I'm truly living in all of me rather than just existing in my head to solve problems. And I think it's really quite grounding to be out in the environment where all that matters is the real here and now in the moment.

It's one of those things that I find really hard to describe because it's a feeling. You're doing a good job. I'm looking at, you know, quite glamorous, lovely outfit on hair, makeup, you know, this is the opposite of that. It really is. So when I get the opportunity to actually brush my hair or put a face on, I do use it. So let's talk through your day today then. What does it consist of? Well, day-to-days can change because we work from a tidal harbour. So sometimes the day will start at nine o'clock in the morning and we'll be in at seven o'clock at night. Sometimes the day might start at two o'clock in the morning and then you'll be in at about three o'clock. So we're

restricted by the tide. We can't get in and out all the time. So three o'clock so we're restricted by the tide we can't get in and out all the time so once we're out we're out until the next time i mean you've got to love it to be getting up that in the middle of the night haven't you i mean if you're getting out of bed at 1am this is this is a passion it is a passion but then in the winter okay not so nice you know the car's iced up and it's cold and but you have to do it but you have to do it because if it's your chosen profession and it's your livelihood you you have to do it. But you have to do it. Because if it's your chosen profession and it's your livelihood, you just have to do it.

You just have to go. But then in the summer, when you're getting up at sort of two in the morning and the sunrise is starting and you see all these different colours in the sky and you feel like it's just for you because there's nobody else out there and you see the seagulls waking up,

they're normally trying to steal your bait. It's very solitary really massively solitary would you consider yourself a solitary person we did a well in fact last week we talked about solitude on the program is that did you know that you were a solitary person i don't think i am a solitary person right um i don't think i could work on a boat that went out for weeks at a time um and come back so we're a day boat we're back pretty much you know every day but I think having that solitude just for 10-12 hours is just wonderful and I'm not entirely on my own I've got Nige the skipper we need to talk about Nige I'm glad you brought up Nige because I was about to ask you about Nige how well he's a huge

part of your life I mean he's the reason you you do what you do talk to was about to ask you about nigel how well he's a huge part of your life i mean he's the reason you you do what you do talk to us about tell us about nigel nigel is at sea today um is he listening i hope so if he's managed to work out how to use his phone to connect up to the bluetooth on the boat um nigel's been a massive part of empowering me to feel the confidence in myself to be able to do the job um there's never ever been any ceremony or any kind of pep pep talks it's just a case of okay ash you're gonna do this didn't he spot it in you though didn't he say you should do it wasn't he the first person that he was yeah he said i asked him i said did you not think it was weird? Like, I just kept coming back and booking fishing trips. And then, you know, a friendship formed.

And he was like, he goes, I did. But then I could see in you that you really loved being out there at sea. And I wasn't about to hold you back from that. So he took a chance on a girl with no experience. And I mean, would Nige describe himself as a feminist? I mean, he's definitely an ally. He is an ally to women. Yeah, I don't think he would describe himself as a feminist? I mean, he's definitely an ally, isn't he? He is an ally to women, yeah. I don't think he would describe himself as a feminist.

And I think he's been asked this question before, and they say, Nigel, are you a feminist? He's, I like women. That's all you'll get from him. He's a man of few words. So he changed your life? He really did, yeah. Really did. How, the other characters, apart from Nigel are the boats

themselves yes um tell me about the bond that you develop with the vessels it's such a special relationship and boats aren't just a tool for a job they become part of you they need you you have to look after them and the deal is you look after them and they look after you you take them out into a potentially what can be a really dangerous environment and you put your trust into them and they're better at sea than any human being and we you know I explore in my fishing life the relationships between all the boats that feature. They do play up and I sometimes have to go and sit and get below deck and talk to them and say, come on, you're being a bit of a madam.

I need you to get on side here. Ashley, the way you're talking to me about how you feel about fishing, I can see it in your eyes. Your eyes are sparkling. I'm sure everyone listening can hear it can see it in your eyes. Your eyes are sparkling. I mean, I'm sure everyone listening can hear it, the passion in your voice. If I was talking to Ashley 15 years ago, would you believe that this is you now?

No, absolutely not. I've changed as a person because of the job. Definitely. How much? Are we talking a U-turn? Are we talking 90 degrees? Like how much have you changed? I don't know. It's hard to put how much you've changed on it. But I see differences in myself. I feel more confident. I feel more empowered five now. It's like I've opened Pandora's box and it's an exciting world where every day is different and every day challenges you.

And I couldn't go back. There might be someone listening on their headphones at their desk right now. I hope so. Itching. I hope so. With their trainers ready to run out the door. Would you encourage them to go for it? I would. I would definitely encourage them to look into it. And especially women, because in the last six years, when I first started, I knew of two other women active on boats.

And now that number's like definitely over 20. And I received a message the other day from a 14-year-old girl in Scotland. And she said, thank you for basically just showing up because it's made me feel like it's something that I could do. And I'm in a she was in a fishing family anyway. And it's those young women that need to see women in roles like this in order to think, yeah, I could see myself doing that. Correct. And I think it's just so important that we're here and we're accepted by the industry and taking up space. And in 2022 as I mentioned you were awarded Fisher Man of the Year, the first woman to ever hold the title.

Yeah. How did that feel and did you ruffle any feathers? It felt amazing just to be nominated in the first instance to be recognised by the industry. To actually win it was really quite something I had to hold back tears um when they read my name out for the award um and did I ruffle any feathers not within the industry the industry was really welcoming and accepting um I think some people were like it should be fisherwoman or fisher or not fisherman but I have my reasons for wanting to say fisherman. But yeah, generally the industry was really, really welcoming and it was really lovely to have that acceptance. And what do you hope the readers are going to find out about the industry from your book? I hope they're going to find out quite, or in layman's terms, actually how the industry all fits together because there's a

lot of legislation and the characteristics of the fleet that we see um in harbors up and down the country now um are the way they are because of decades of legislation um and i want us to fall back in love with british fish and british boats only have 4,000 boats left in this country and 11,000 fishermen. That number declines every year through a lot of different reasons which we explore in my fishing life. And I just want the public to fall back in love with fish and to fall back in love with fishermen. Yeah, we love our fish and chips. We might as well understand where that fish came from. It's been an absolute joy and inspiring to talk to you this morning. Absolutely my pleasure.

And well done on the book as well. That's Ashley Mullinger and her book, My Fishing Life, is out now. Thank you. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. it's a long story settle in available now

um your thoughts are still coming through about your reunions um here we go here's one i have just recently come back from my five-day reunion in bordeaux how lovely with my seven university friends for the first time in six years. I talked about my struggle to try and recreate those friendships throughout my life after moving from Ireland to the UK. My dear friend Maeve told me that we all have friendships for a season, reason, or a lifetime. It's made me realize that I've got my lifetime friends

and know they are always there for me. And Linda says, we left college in 1970 and since 1971, we have met up every year. We were only a small group of eight of us. So with wives and husbands every year, we meet such an amazing relationship and we all hold,

all hold onto it. So it's so special. We all have various aches, pains, conditions, illnesses, but for an afternoon and evening, we are 18 again. Love them all. Keep them coming through.

Now, it's a well-known fact that fashion is cyclical. Think flared jeans and flower power, the staples of the 70s, which came back into fashion a few years ago. Double denim of the 80s is back. Baggy jeans of the 90s. Well, now it's turn for the noughties

to bring something back, and it's ballet pumps remember them your feet probably do the flat leather shoe with their rounded toes sometimes a little bow on the front they're back but why uh to enlighten us is harriet walker fashion editor at the times uh morning harriet's welcome to women's hour uh first things first uh why are they back and also what i want to know is who decides uh when it's time that something is going to come back and then how does it go on to become a trend like i mean we all want to know this like who was responsible for this actually let me not go off on a tangent

about skinny jeans let's stick to ballet pumps well obviously it's the fashion gods who decide all of these things actually i think as as i up, I realised that it's young people who decide these things. It's people who haven't done these trends first time round. I wore ballet pumps a lot as a student. That's why I'm not over the moon that they've come back, because I then had to do a lot of toenail rehab for about a decade afterwards um but I think I've seen a lot of your listeners on Twitter already saying ballet pumps never went away and they are also right of course because they are a classic a part of the canon of you know as a staple of sort of Parisian chic but um they were ubiquitous in the noughties because Kate Moss was always in them and that's who everyone wanted to look like and that look along with the skinny jeans I'm afraid to say and the low rise waistbands is back and I think you can lay the blame firmly at the feet of 20 year olds who haven't tried it before low rise waistbands sorry my heart just

sank there how low are we talking and are we talking what was it the thought is that is there like the revealing the thong at the back coming back as well? Because this, I mean, my heart is just sinking lower and lower. Harriet? Perhaps it's not for us to try again. I do think there is quite sound logic in if you've done a trend once and you didn't like it, why return to it? Yes, good. I mean, you mentioned there your own feet and your nails having to do a bit of recovery for a few years.

Have we forgotten how bad they were for our feet? Well, it's funny, isn't it? I remember going to a podiatrist to the A-list, the fabulous, in the noughties because my feet were just cut to shreds and I had terrible bunions and my lower back was really sore. And she said she was more, it's Margaret Dabbs is her name. And she said she was more used to seeing feet ravaged by stilettos until the noughties. And then it suddenly flipped and people were coming in with these ballet pump related injuries. The foremost of which was something I'm really sorry, this is very unpleasant, but it's called pavement toe. And it's because the soles of ballet pumps are so paper thin that if you're walking around all day in them, the impact from, you know, hard concrete pavements, there's nothing to protect your feet from that sort of jolt, the impact every time you step.

And what it does is thicken your nail and make the nail kind of lift up off the bed and that became incredibly common apparently among the most fashionable types during during the noughties so that's what we've got to look forward to if we embrace the trend also suffering for fashion um you say that it's it's 20 year olds who are leading it but i thought it was the other way around i I thought it was high fashion that reveals something on the catwalks and then it invariably filters down. Did they not appear on catwalks a couple of years ago? They have done, definitely. But I do think that that cycle has slightly been broken now. I think that, you know, in the 50s and 60s, it was very much that designers decided what the silhouette was

and what the shape of a shoe should be. And then they told us all. And then probably five years later, you know, us mortals kind of cottoned on. But it's changed now. And I think lots of designers take inspiration, not just from what's going on in the street right now, but also I think they go back to, I hate to break it to you, but vintage images and I'm afraid the noughties now count as vintage because they're 25 years old.

I know, Kate Moss. Yes. Like you say. But also Kate Moss and the amazing Audrey Hepburn who was classically in the Chanel pump. Of course. They don't actually have to do that much walking in their real lives, do they? I mean, they're not like the rest of us.

They don't have to walk do that much walking in their real lives do they i mean they're not like the rest of us they don't have to walk that's that's absolutely it and i i think we've sort of seen what's interesting is we're seeing this um it's a kind of post-pandemic trend towards flats uh actually we have a piece in the times magazine tomorrow about whether heels the highest heels have become almost like a museum piece at this point, because you see them so rarely on anybody who has a real life to go about day to day. I think ballet pumps coming back is part of this. The fact that we have kind of we live in flat shoes now, but that sometimes trainers don't feel smart enough. And so people are going back to ballet pumps as an alternative. But I think perhaps in the noughties, people wore ballet pumps as an alternative. But I think perhaps in the noughties,

people wore ballet pumps. Well, people, I mean me, but all of my friends as well. We wore them almost exclusively. And I think that's where all of the sort of back problems and hip issues came into play. And also we were wearing

very, very cheap ones. We wore them in wind, rain and snow, my friends. I think this time it's going to be part of a mix. You know, we've got used to comfort. We don't wear shoes that are uncomfortable anymore. At least I certainly don't. So I think it's all about kind of mixing a ballet pump

in with your other shoes and to protect your feet slightly. Wonderful. Harriet, I do love the image of you sitting around with your friends blaming your ailments on the ballet pump nothing to do with you know just the fact that we're 10 years on or whatever it's the ballet pumps um any other naughtiest trends we should be looking out for oh do you know what there's a lot of waistcoats around i don't know whether you remember that you know i love a waistcoat yeah pub on a Friday night, put a waistcoat on. With a little cravat, even better.

Yeah, leave the trilby at home though. Harriet Walker, thank you so much for joining me. I'm just going to throw this out there. If anyone is having a reunion, get the fashion out. I mean, maybe your kids are borrowing your clothes now. Maybe you never got rid of any of it. Maybe you're dusting off your ballet pumps or your son or daughter is wearing yours right now. So many messages coming in about various things that we've been talking about on the programme.

A message here about Ashley saying, love listening to Ashley Mullinger. I'm a fisherman's daughter from a 400-year-old fishing family. And it's been so inspiring to hear her story. Can't wait to read the book. Wonderful. family and it's been so inspiring to hear her story can't wait to read the book wonderful now the comeuppance is a new play on at the elmida theatre in london five former high school friends meet up 20 years on to reminisce and reconnect instead they end up drinking fighting and ruining the disappointments of their middle-aged lives tamara lawrence plays ursula hampered by ill

health and an eye patch that the others whisper about. Caitlin is played by Yolanda Kettle, a woman stuck in the doldrums of married life. And Katie Leung is Christina, an anaesthetist juggling hectic motherhood. And I'm delighted to say all three of them are in the studio with me right now. Welcome. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi. I came to see you all last week um it was wonderful to watch you all it's incredibly funny intense at times thought

provoking um and it looks like you are all having a lot of fun you look like real friends on stage so the acting is excellent did you know did you know each other before? No. I knew of everyone though. I was a big fan. Big fan of everyone's work. Tell us about the play. Katie.

Go for it. Well, just as you've described, it's a play that takes place on a porch, which is very kind of iconic in America. You know, we don't get that kind of space over here, not so much. But it's just, yeah, five friends who come together to try and recreate their prom night from 20 years ago. And for some, it was a nice experience back then that they want to relive. For others, not so much.

And yeah, they just kind of gather and, you know, drink over the course of the evening, have some snacks and catch up and reminisce. And it's, you know, supposed to be happy days. But then, you know, kind of more the more substances that are consumed the more kind of dark and hilarious it gets um so it's it's funny it's a very funny play uh it's a funny play uh Tamara what stories did you tell each other when you got together to figure out who you were did you share stories about your own together to figure out who you were did you share stories about your own childhood to figure out who you were 20 years ago and all did that

happen yeah in in the first week of rehearsal uh eric ting our amazing director um had a practice of us kind of sharing memories together and i remember one one of his first questions was what's what was one of your most awkward or embarrassing moments from from high school so we we shared some of those stories go on then what was yours I mean yeah okay mine oh yeah mine was sorry no one's listening um yeah it was it was something about a hairpiece and I was playing netball and, you know, in the middle of my wing defence, it fell off and everyone thought it was a rat.

So, yeah. Oh, no! I know. It was really embarrassing. But, you know, it's... How did you deal with it at the time? Therapy. No, I'm joking.

You're still dealing with it. No, yeah, what was even more embarrassing was just having to pick it up and put it on the side and continue doing the match. But yeah, we shared a lot of our childhood memories, but also kind of where we were and how we felt when some of the more seismic events that have happened to all of us between America and the UK took place. And so kind of we spoke on our relationship to some of the big events mentioned in the play, like 9-11 and stuff like that. So, yeah.

Was it a different experience to other plays that you've been in, the preparation, Yolanda? Yeah, in lots of ways. Eric was very, very chilled out. I mean, just the most amazing director and so keen in that first week particularly for us to really bond, to get to know each other. Eric was so adamant that he needed us to have you know to feel like we had a friendship um and hopefully that really translates onto the stage um that it feels like we are really are sort of like have formed these relationships that sort of go way back um so we spent a lot of time just sort of having fun really and and talking and I was like okay when are we gonna when are we gonna stand up and like rehearse and do this and he kept being like it's fine y'all we got five weeks it's all good we got time I was thinking have we have we but um in in in risk isn't it because what if you just

absolutely can't stand each other oh yeah I mean there's that isn't there yeah but luckily but and we can't but luckily you're getting very well. Yeah. I think we should hear a clip from the play. This is including the two men who are with you in the play, your friends Emilio, played by Anthony Welsh, and Ferdinand Kingsley, who plays Paco. Let's take a listen.

Three fills! Are those both really for you? No, one's for Simon. Glug, glug, mind your beeswax. Here, Caitlin, I brought out the whole pitcher. This one's for you, buddy. Thanks. Should we make a toast?

We should. Toast, toast, toast! What are we toasting to? To Merge! To Merge! What did Merge stand for again? Multi-Ethnic Reject Group. Oh, does that spell Merge or Merg? It's a soft g

tell us about merg merge merge came out of i suppose this group of people who felt perhaps like on the peripheries in high school um very incredibly intelligent people so this group of friends were all in honours classes together. So sort of, I suppose, the top set as we would have it. Yeah. But all feeling slightly like excluded from the popular, the more popular groups at high school. And so therefore Merge was created.

Tell us about each of your characters. So how about yours uh let's start with you tomorrow um Ursula is um I think the most how would I describe her she's the the grounded person the energy in the group that kind of is a bit of the leveler the person who can um knows how to cut the tension and make jokes and kind of keep things light i think she's someone that observes that things are getting a bit out of hand at places and tries to kind of you know and she hasn't left the place that you all grew up. Yeah. She stayed, she looked after her grandma. Yeah.

And you're hosting this pre-party. Yes. So the porch is Ursula's porch. She's excited to see everyone, but she's adamant that she's not going to the reunion. She's over lockdown, been diagnosed with diabetes and has since lost sight in one eye. And so she feels like i don't she doesn't want to go to the reunion because um she doesn't want to feel uncomfortable about people seeing her so

differently to how she was but um otherwise yeah she's she's game and she's down to see her friends again and then enters yolanda's character. And she is? Caitlin. I mean, I love Caitlin. Can I just hear you do the accent? Because the accents are so good. Do Caitlin in Caitlin's accent. What is it? What's my first line?

Oh, what are you doing outside? It's freezing. Oh, come on. I don't want to do mine. Tell us about Caitlin. I'm not warm. oh come on i don't want to do mine caitlin is um so she has married a an a slightly older man who's old enough to be her father basically he's an ex-cop um and you know quite sort of not not the best political leanings um he's right wing, isn't he? He's very right wing.

He's a Trump supporter. He's a Trump supporter. She's not. But I think she's got to a point where she's kind of had to like accept the choices that she's made. And I think there's a point where sort of Amelia's like, you know, you could have done so much more with yourself.

But she's really, you know, she's really had to try and find she's at peace with that now but there's an element of her very much trying to keep keep the sort of the show together and keep her you know keeping up appearances she's the all-american kind of yeah I see her as the all-american beauty queen who married the kind of guy but but and didn't have children didn't have children yeah um which is obviously a very it's a very difficult uh subject for her in the play um which is touched upon um but she is a stepmother to these these two children who are sort of you know growing up in college and then katie's character is this very successful anaesthetist with many children. Yes, many, many. Five?

Yeah, five children. Yes, all varying ages. But she's, I think, Christina, I think on the outside she kind of comes across as this kind of really fiery, like someone who's got her stuff together. But actually on the inside she's kind of falling apart because she has, or she feels she has lots of responsibilities,

you know, including those five children. She's got her whole family that she's looking after and, you know, her cousin, who's also part of the group, trying to keep him at bay. And yeah, she's just juggling a lot at once and having been a doctor during the pandemic, that's kind of made her just question her career, her life, her choices, all of that.

So that kind of all comes crashing all comes crashing down um and what's interesting what i found interesting is it and that's why it's become the talking point it's it's that when you reconnect with people that you once knew when you were at school or in this case high school what what happens what comes out of that and it's the like the when you your character katie gets drunk and sort of is almost regretful of the choices that she made yeah but ultimately you made those choices and there's something about midlife isn't that I mean none of you are there yet but there's something about that point in your life where you've worked really hard and you've kind of aimed to be somewhere and you wake up and you open your

eyes and maybe you're not quite where you expected to be. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think it's like school can be such a, you know, for me certainly when I was at school, I felt it was like the be-all end-all, you know, that who you are in school is who you are for the rest of your life and it's not until you reach a certain point in your life you realise that actually you're so far from that person now and there's things that you try and hold on to and things you try and like let go of and um yeah especially for christina i think she just she wants to recreate that moment she wants to go back to to that time when everything was great and she

talks about like being full of promise and having all this hope and um and actually that's my that might be the reason why she hasn't kind of achieved those things because she was holding on to it instead of being able to let go and caitlin's story actually is uh it's that you know cultural deep big cultural shift because there's a there's um there's a story i don't want to give the storyline away how much can i say about paco no not paco not because yeah yeah um i mean yeah we don't want to give too much away do we but yes culture the culture shift and what she went through as a teenager might not she might not go through a teenager might right now might not go through i think what you're saying about that sort of taking stock of your life,

like realising where you're at in your life and maybe it not matching up to what your expectations were really resonates in this play because that's suddenly when you're faced with that, yeah, it all comes to the fore, doesn't it? What did getting this role mean to you, Katie? For all of you, in fact. Yeah, I mean, when I first read the

script I was just like wow this is so refreshing. It's very rare that I come across something like this where it's not felt like a sort of box ticking exercise you know when it comes to diversity. You know it's it's just really clever the way Brandon's kind of addressed the fact that you know it's it's just really clever the way brandon's kind of addressed the fact that you know we're of like the ethnicity kind of question is is in the script but then after it's been addressed you know he parks it and then we can move on and explore the characters as you know just these very multi-layered individuals um has nothing to do with, you know, our race. As for me coming to watch the play, it was a very, I mean, it wasn't even a thing that I noticed particularly, but I did notice.

And it was wonderfully refreshing that you have a cast, such a mixed cast. Is it something unusual for you as well? Yeah, I think I've been fortunate, I think, to work with lots of different types of casts in my career, I guess. But definitely, I think in the industry, obviously, we know that there's that not everybody is reflected in the work or behind the scenes even more so as much as they should be or could be. And actually, it is better for the kind of the harmony of the whole space. I think when there's just like so much more different influences coming into the room it's so it's all yeah it's always so um moving and fun for me when I get to spend time

with people that come from different places to me and um have different experiences and I think yeah having that as the bedrock of of the show but for it not to be politicised has also been great. Yeah, and it is very entertaining to watch and it's on until May the 18th. How are your energy levels, you three? No, we've got all the energy. You've got all the energy. May the 18th, you go.

And it is brilliant and you are brilliant. So thank you for coming in to talk to me. i'm just going to end with some of these so many messages coming in let's see how many i can get in this quite long ones here jen says i'm originally from canada having lived here in the uk for 16 years i'm still in contact with most of my friends from elementary school a cluster of us grew up together in a small town and lived within a few minutes of each other in fact i'll be visiting canada again in a few weeks and i'll see my besties and many other friends again oh good for you and i'm gonna end with this one that i've just come in because i quite like this message hello there just wanted to let you know that our year 13 media class are listening live right now getting ready

for our media mock we are down south in west sussex and enjoying today's episode. Well, good luck with your media mock year 13. And thanks to all of you. I'm sorry I didn't get to read all your messages. I'll be back tomorrow with Weekend Woman's Hour. Enjoy your weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. To the uninitiated, I would describe my family by saying we are very passionate people.

I'm Cardiff born, Cardiff bred and when I die I'll be Cardiff dead. We're musical. There's a lot of big personalities. All of our family perform in some way, whether entertainment or just emotionally performing. We are hilarious to be fair. Extraordinary. I really do enjoy life. i don't worry about dying tomorrow because tomorrow's never going to come that's how i would describe my family i'm charlotte church and i'm inviting you to listen in on a series of intimate and special conversations about belonging working class identity and the unbreakable bonds of family.

So come and kick back with the Cardiffians, babes. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.