Woman's Hour - Welfare support at Sandhurst, Women's Ashes, Rape trials in Scotland

Episode Date: July 12, 2023

In her first broadcast interview, Louise Townsend, the mother of Olivia Perks who took her own life in 2019 whilst at Sandhurst Military Academy, speaks to Woman’s Hour. Louise discusses her view that there was a lack of welfare support from the academy towards her late daughter and what steps need to be taken to ensure it doesn’t happen again.Today is a big day coming up with the Women's Ashes series where England face Australia. The Aussies have surged ahead in the women's multi-format series, but there is hope for England as the momentum behind them builds - thanks, in part, to record breaking crowds. Sports journalist and broadcaster Georgie Heath joins Nuala to discuss. Shakardokht Jafari was born in rural Afghanistan in 1977 and became a refugee when she was 6 and grew up in Iran. After the fall of the Taliban, she moved back to Afghanistan first securing a teaching post in radiology at Kabul Medical University, then being asked to re-establish a cancer facility in Kabul. To secure the post, she needed to gain more qualifications, and in 2010 she came to the UK where she became the first Afghan woman to earn a PhD in medical physics. Shakar has gone on to win a string of awards for business innovation and has also found time to write her life story, Shakar: An Afghan Woman’s Journey and to be a leading campaigner for girls’ education in Afghanistan.Can distress be used as evidence in rape trials? This is the discussion currently going through the courts in Scotland. Nuala is joined by Sandy Brindley, Chief Exec of Rape Crisis Scotland and Serious Crime Barrister Thomas Leonard Ross KC to debate the issue.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, this is Nuala McGovern, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome. This hour we'll begin by hearing from the mother of Olivia Perks, who was an officer cadet at Sandhurst who took her own life. Olivia's mother, Louise Townsend, recounts in heartbreaking detail what she feels were the serious missteps by the Academy that led to her beloved daughter's unnecessary death. You'll also want to hear the changes in culture that Louise wants to see

so that another parent does not have to endure what she does every day. That interview, her only broadcast interview in just a moment. Also today, the first Afghan woman to earn a PhD in medical physics, Shakar Dach Jafari has led an inspiring life from very humble beginnings to pioneering work in radiation therapy for cancer and now advocating for girls' education in Afghanistan. We'll hear her inspiring story.

We'll also turn to Scotland. They are currently debating whether to use evidence of distress in rape cases. Some believe it could increase the conviction rate. Others feel it could lead to wrongful convictions. We're going to hear from two guests with a difference of opinion on those issues. Also today at 1pm, there is a must-win game for England if they are to regain the ashes from Australia,

that age-old rivalry. It has sold out crowds today, huge interest and also viewership for the women's game in general. England's captain, Heather Knight, she's hoping to pull off the great escape, as she calls it, so we'll hear just how likely that is.

And I want your help with something. I saw an article today on snoring, so I need your help with something. I saw an article today on snoring, so I need your experiences. Studies show that while male snorers generally outnumber female ones, the situation is reversed in the 25 to 34 age group. Some of the reasons given were drinking, vaping and rising obesity levels. Also, I read that women going from perimenopause to menopause to postmenopausal, there is also an increase in sleep disordered breathing, aka snoring. I'm wondering, is this you?

Have you struggled with it? Has your partner? Have you found a solution? And I'm also wondering whether you find it at all embarrassing, as some women have said online. The usual depiction, even if you look it up and search it, it's a picture of a man, right? It's generally seen as a man's issue with snoring considered unladylike.

And I do put that word in inverted commas. So I want to hear from you. What's the story? Is there some snoring going on? You can text the programme 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website for WhatsApp or voice note. I don't know. Maybe you want to send us a snoring example. It's 03700 100 444 again to text the programme 84844. But let me begin. Back in 2019, Olivia Perks, who was 21 at the time, took her own life at Sandhurst Military Academy in Berkshire. She was training as an officer cadet and was in the last term of a 44-week course.

An inquest in May this year concluded that the army missed opportunities to prevent her death and that Olivia fell victim to, and I quote, a complete breakdown in welfare support, unquote. That was during her time at the academy. The inquest was told that Olivia felt an overwhelming sense of embarrassment after spending the night in an officer's room after a charity ball five days before her death. and a witness spoke of how Olivia had felt like she was on trial as she was questioned about the incident by Sandhurst Academy leaders. Olivia had previously attempted to end her life in the summer of 2018 but was deemed low risk of trying again. As she was legally an adult this was not relayed to her family.

Olivia's mother is Louise Townsend and Louise believes there was a lack of welfare support put into place to protect her daughter. Louise spoke to me on Woman's Hour for her only broadcast interview and began by describing what Olivia was like. Olivia really was just a normal, regular girl, but she had this enormous sense of adventure and fun, really. And as she was growing up, she developed a passion for sport and it was quite apparent that she gave everything that she did. She embarked on it with 110% conviction. Any weakness she demonstrated, she had countenance with positivity,

enthusiasm and effort. And fittingly, her best friend at Sandhurst described her as the most positive person I knew, perhaps a little too positive. She was really tiny, but a personality completely made up. You absolutely knew when she'd entered the room. Really and truly, she was the type of girl that I always wanted to be and always aspired to be. But she could also be very obstinate, very forthright and incredibly stubborn. But, you know, you paint a picture of her there and this young girl wanted to join the army.

You don't come from a military family though if I understand correctly. Were you reticent about it? Were you worried about it? I was very reticent about it and I did all that I could without her realising to try and sway her from joining the military but when she was a teenager she joined Air Cadet and she absolutely loved it. She loved being part of a structured organisation and she was really teenager she joined air cadets and she absolutely loved it she loved being part of a structured organization and she was really proud of being part of that squadron and so she said it was quite early on that she wanted to join the military um i really thought it was a phase that it would pass but it didn't but i think as a mum you try and support your children, don't you? And you try and push all your concerns to one side and try not to burden, you know, try not to burden her with my concerns.

So she got into Sandhurst and loved it, right? She adored it. She adored being there. She had the best of times. She made great friends down there and each time she came home most times when I had telephone conversations with her it was are you okay down there are you enjoying it she absolutely adored being down there. You talk about speaking on the telephone I imagine then from that conversation you're telling me that there were no signs that she was struggling? None at all. There's limited contact because they're civilians being turned into soldiers, really. So that's for the first five weeks. But the odd WhatsApp message there confirmed that she was fine.

She was enjoying the course, making friends. The days were long. They were exhausting. There was lots of sleep deprivation, but she knew that. We knew that that was part of the training experience she came home she affirmed to me that things were great she loved it best thing ever once she'd gone back for the rest of her time down there I'd be in regular contact with her I have to say I probably became a nuisance to her because I was I was the one that was sending the messages just checking

are you okay things Are things going fine? Anything that you need, that kind of thing. And the response generally was, I'm fine, I'm busy, I'll talk at the weekends. I had absolutely no indication that there was anything can be stand there. There are things you learned later. There was an incident at what's called the Royal Engineers,

which was an event. This was in 2018. How do you understand now what happened? Again, I was completely unaware that anything could happen until after she died. And as investigations proceed and the inquest, we found out more of what had actually happened. But my understanding is that she was about week 10 into her training the Royal Engineers was her chosen corps during the day there were lots of events going on then they had a barbecue and it was basically an open bar at Sandhurst there's what's known as a two the two can rule officer cadets are only allowed two cans of alcohol.

But during the inquest, we found out that this really wasn't anything that was stuck to at all. The chain of command admitted that a blind eye was often turned. They drank to excess. And then when the bar was drunk dry, the whiskies came out. So you've got a young, very small officer cadet drinking to keep up with everybody. She became ill, clearly extremely drunk. And then she started to act completely out of character,

said that she was so happy with this is the best that could ever happen to her. And she was ready to go saying just let me go let me go asking to be left so she could wander to the sea she started to use her hands apparently we're told to try and choke herself but this was with people present that you didn't know about absolutely nothing about But that incident happened. There was another incident, as we understand it now, at a ball the following year. Do you know what happened there?

It's quite a big event on their social calendar, I believe. Some of the chain of command, some of the directing staff were present at this ball. I think the intention was after the ball, most of the officer cadets would, they'd been allowed to get cabs to go into London and carry on partying but because it had snowed quite heavily they couldn't get the cabs. So the parties continued on what's known as the lines which is where the accommodation block is for the officer cadets on each line an office where the directing staff

has their office they're all encouraged to go up to the lines and continue drinking something that shouldn't have happened but the directing staff were part of this group of people encouraging the cadets to continue drinking and she became along with other officer cadets, extremely drunk. Also, we were aware during the inquest that quite a few of the directing staff were drinking to excess. She becomes quite vocal, incredibly inebriated. So a member of the directing staff, who knew what had happened at the engineers event, who himself was extremely drunk, went up to her and took her into his office on the lines. We then understand that she missed the parade the following day and on her way out of his accommodation block,

she ran straight into two senior members of the chain of command. She was interrogated as to where she'd been, what had happened. At this point, I have to say, she was still completely under the influence of alcohol and she was completely interrogated to get an answer as to where she'd been. And I think at that point she was the one that was being, well she certainly wasn't being treated as any victim, she was the one being treated as the person responsible for what had happened really. And I with that, one of her friends told the inquest that Olivia had felt like she was on trial as those Sandhurst Academy leaders questioned her about it.

Both Olivia and the more senior male member of staff whose room she was in have denied any sexual activity taking place. I just want to say that to our listeners. And intimate relationships between staff and trainees on or off duty are forbidden at Sandhurst. And a 300-page report into Olivia's death

published last year suggested that instructors frequently flouted the rules. There's a lot there that we're talking about, I think, culture-wise. And also, I suppose, whether anybody was

watching out for her I mean how do you understand it? Well so if we go back to the events of the Royal Engineers she was seen by the psychiatry team at the local kind of military hospital who deemed that she hadn't got any mental condition as such and they felt that she did present herself harming but that she hadn't got any mental condition as such. And they felt that she did present herself harming, but that she wasn't particularly under any risk or any suicidal risk because she was in front of other people. So she was no more at risk of harming herself than anybody else. And therefore she should go back into training,

but she'd be monitored and welfare should be put in place um she was she was disciplined for being drunk and then um effectively self-harming so from really um week 11 she felt i guess under the cosh really because she she was under this in her eyes quite um quite a big disciplinary question mark yeah so no no support was offered to her whatsoever and then we get to the um aftermath of the ball where she's in quite a distressed state. If someone had actually said, even morally had just said, looking at this young person who is so distressed by this interrogation effectively that she's under, that actually let's just stop, morally, let's just stop.

Let's just get her to somewhere that's safe, where she can decompress. They have a unit on site called look now which is effectively the medical center if she'd been sent there i really don't feel and i think this was supported by the coroner i don't really think we would have been where we are where we're at now i don't think it would have got to the point of the 6th of february when she decided that there was no other alternative to take her own life i think she just felt that that was it her entire military career was over effectively for her her life was over because she'd spent a quarter of her life getting to this point getting to this wonderful place as as she felt. And I think she felt that there was no other alternative

but to do what she did. Which is so sad. And there has been the inquest, as we talk about. What steps do you want Sanders to take to ensure something like this doesn't happen again? They need to actually look at the culture to change. And I think recommendations have been put in place and I believe that there is now a vast improvement

on what's happening now as to when Liv was at Sandhurst. But I don't think change is alone. We'll change just the toxic culture because it is embedded really, you know, armed forces. And a lot of work needs to be done to change that culture and really bring the army into the 21st century and I really really hope that they do drive forward with these changes so that they can promote a culture that supports and nurtures the well-being of young officer cadets. That's a journey that I think as a mum I would like to be part of just to witness that the longevity and the event

embedding of the recommendations are really seen through. I really feel that the army in phase one training establishments which Sandhurst is that it should be dry. As it stands at the moment phase one establishments they have a completely zero tolerance to alcohol. Alcohol is not allowed on site but on Sandhurst it is and when we've questioned that it's the answer is well most of our cohorts come from universities so we can't really we can't prevent them drinking but we are keeping it under review kind of thing and I think they need to look at relationships and I would hope that they will learn from what's happened to Olivia and they absolutely ensure that they have effective welfare provision in place for these young officer cadets.

The other part in this, so we talk about the alcohol, the relationships and also outside investigations. But nobody was in touch with you during those times that she was struggling. I know she was 20 years of age, so I know legally she's an adult. Maybe she didn't want them to get in touch with you. I don't know. But what about that part of it? I'm completely devastated by that because, and that was a question I asked when we went down the day after finding out that she died and it was presented to me. Well, she'd had a little bit of a wobble at the Royal Engineers.

And I asked the question at that point well why did no one contact me and the the answer was as you said she's an adult so it was you know we couldn't do that but I really feel that there could have been some way that someone could have contacted me or even made her contact me to say, look, there's an issue here. I need some help. I need some support. Because, you know, I think she's in this incredibly male-dominated environment. And I think she just thought, well, she got to man up to things

and she got to just get on with things. Had I been told, I would have done my utmost to try and support her and try to get to the root of why she got to where she got to if someone had contacted me you know instantly I would have been down there instantly she probably wouldn't have wanted me to but instantly I'd have been down there trying to help her. I can't imagine what it was like for you and your family because you didn't have an inkling of what was happening when you received that news that she had took her own life. How are you coping now as a family? It's four years on.

I don't think I'll ever really come to terms with a loss because we are still utterly devastated and particularly knowing that it was completely unnecessary if the right welfare support had been engaged at the right time. It's really been horrendous, it's been heartbreaking for all of us concerned. We pushed to get the answers. You know, at the beginning of this journey, I think some of the responses I was getting to my questions was very much, oh, she was mentally ill.

That was my perception. And I knew that wasn't right. And that's why we pushed and we pushed and we pushed. We've now got quite a lot of answers to the questions that we didn't have at the beginning of this journey but it's but we still haven't got her with us and that's devastating I would hope that I can create a positive legacy and in her memory and I hope that changes are being embedded within Sandhurst and the wider military establishments to make sure that young people don't have to go through what she had to go through. Olivia Perk's mother Louise Townsend thanks so much to her. If you feel affected by anything

you've heard in that interview then head to the Woman's Hour website where you can find details on BBC Action Line. We did contact the Ministry of Defence for a statement and Major General Zach Stenning, Commandant of the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, said we are deeply sorry for the

systemic and individual failings within the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst which led to the tragic death of Olivia Perks in February 2019. Much more should and could have been done to support her. As an organisation, we should have been better. Our officer cadets at Sandhurst now

experience vastly improved supervisory care on their journey to become future leaders for our army and the nation. We owe this to Olivia and our people. As the Commandant of Sandhurst, I have promised to commit to a culture of continuous learning to ensure Sandhurst remains a safe and positive training environment for our future leaders.

Nothing less is acceptable. With my leadership team and instructors, we will not stop striving to deliver this. If you want to get in touch with Women's Hour on any of the stories that you are hearing today on the programme, the text number is 84844. You can email us on our website or indeed on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. I was asking a little earlier for your stories of snoring and many of you have got in touch.

I want to read a few of them that have come in. I have cleared a room of four women on a 50th weekend away due to my snoring. I'm deeply paranoid now, so will sleep away from people and bring earplugs

for them to use. Now, this has been echoed. Here's another. Wow, this is such a live issue. As a 53-year-old, I sound like a train. Planning weekends away with friends

becomes a real worry and costly if separate rooms need to be booked. Tried all sorts of gadgets, but nothing is working. So maybe you want to get in touch and help with the solutions, 84844. Here's another. I started snoring very loudly approximately two and a half years ago. I'd gained weight through lockdown, was very busy and very stressed and was also perimenopausal. It was horrible. I felt embarrassed, ashamed and unfeminine, right? Coming back to that aspect again. Also, I felt unwell. My husband ended up sleeping in another room for months, which did not help our marriage. Losing weight, losing weight, HRT and an app helped me. So some solutions there and another. I snore so loudly,

my lovely partner can't sleep in the same room. It's quite a big issue for me. I'm 55. I'm constantly tired. I never used to snore. And my partner has recorded it through a wall. I'm horrified I can even make that noise. So that is 84844.

It obviously has touched a nerve. Do get in touch. Tell me your stories. And also tell me the solutions. But let me move to something else. Even if you're not a cricket fan, you may be tempted to listen in today as it is a big day for the Women's Ashes series. England face Australia. The Aussies have surged ahead in the Women's Multi-Format Series,

but there is hope for England as the momentum behind them builds. That is thanks in part to record-breaking crowds. We want to talk about that. The game takes place in Bristol from 1pm and someone who is on their way there now but has pulled over, I can see, is Georgie Heath, sports journalist and broadcaster and host of the Women's Cricket Chat podcast.

Great to have you back with us, Georgie. OK, how significant is today? How are you feeling? I mean, I'm feeling pretty positive. I mean, I'm sat in a service station somewhere on the M4, but I'm buzzing with excitement. To be at Lords and the Oval last week was just phenomenal. I have watched and enjoyed women's cricket for a very long time. And I don't think I've ever seen crowds like that or felt an atmosphere like that at a women's game and it was just staggering those record-breaking crowds but then the performances

to echo that we saw Australia they won the test match at Trent Bridge then they won a nail biter at a sold out almost edge Boston so you know they went six up very quickly England knew they had to they basically had to win every game from there on we got to the oval wednesday night at the oval i knew people who know nothing about cricket and they were like i'm gonna go along anyway and by the end of it they were absolutely loving it and it was thrilling the game and danny wyatt she came out did what danny wyatt does and to get home that tight at the end of that game, sort of kept that one alive.

England got the points on the board. And then Saturday even at Lourdes was just another nail-biter. We had a bit of rain in the middle, so it was an adjusted score, which seemed to work in England's favour. And you've never heard Lourdes like that, especially for a women's game. They were cheering singles. They were cheering singles.

They were cheering dots. Everything was being cheered. There were flames. And to see the crowd of people of all ages, genders, backgrounds, enjoying a game like that in that kind of atmosphere, and England taking the win and winning the T20 series was just cherry on top. And now we move on to the ODI. And the ODI is the one day international.

We're keeping it in laywoman's terms here today. But, you know, somebody turning up who doesn't watch cricket or have an interest in cricket, how do you understand that transformation that got that person to have the bum on seat? I think the ECB, there's a lot to thank them for particularly with this ashes this year because the way it's done obviously the men's and women's uh they're happening at the same time you know on and off and the ecb this year really put in this marketing

kit it's called ashes to ashes so it was you know two teams one country taking on the aussies and you saw i don't know if you saw the pictures of Tower Bridge lit up with Ben Stokes and Heather Knight, something like that. So that's been a really important way to sort of get it out there. But I think there is just quite a buzz in general around cricket at the moment. And some people might not be able to get those tickets for the men's, which are more expensive and harder to get as well and they think you know I still want to be involved and it's very much hook line and sinker at the moment you get into one and then I've actually had people messaging me saying can you get me a ticket for the ODI and you have said no I can't and that is that in itself is really exciting I'm really sorry

but actually it's really exciting that I can't. You're kind of delighted you can't? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Whereas before I could have just been like, well, go on the website, there'll be loads of tickets or turn up on the day. I noticed actually, and I will say for ECB, the England and Wales Cricket Board for the uninitiated. When I was looking just at the Bristol game today, it said, you know, sold out. And it says, and there will be no tickets at the gate. So very much telling people not to get their hopes up when they come. But talking about getting hopes up, the England captain is calling it the great escape.

Do you think it can happen? Oh, I am ever an optimist. So I like to think it can. You know, nothing is over until that final ball. So England, they sort sort of I think they're riding this momentum at the moment as well which is something that's really important in cricket weirdly you know there'll probably be some superstition I'm wearing my lucky bra and everything because you have to because it's cricket we've got to be superstitious but

they got over that sort of psychological factor of this team being completely unbeatable Australia hadn't lost a series so they've just lost this T20 series they haven't lost one since 2017 and I was still at uni at that point in Bristol funnily enough so you know maybe I can maybe there's something in that I'm trying to take everything I can of the tell the talisman honestly I'm taking all of the lucky charms um I think yeah so once you've got over that psychological factor, maybe it can be the great escape. You know, this is sport and we do see these things happen. And I think having that support and the crowd that's going to go mental at Bristol, I know they will, is like having that 12th person on the field with the team and you can tell at lords and at the oval how much that impacted it and this is a smaller ground so it's even more intimate and you're going to really be able to feel that and i think that's going to be really important today

um also the ashes uh as we go through some of the layman's and laywoman's terms this is an intense rivalry and always has been how would you describe it between Australia and England I mean it's sort of I guess maybe I'm a little bit biased but it's one of the pinnacle moments in the pinnacle events in the cricket calendar it's the kind of thing even non-English or Australian people they do tune into it and you you keep up with go with what is going on. And on the women's side, Australia, you know, they've dominated cricket for so long. They professionalised their game quite far ahead of a lot of other countries.

And that really has put them ahead of everyone for such a long time. I mean, they hold the World Cup in the ODIs, the 50 overs, the T20s and the Commonwealth Games. They picked up that gold medal too you know just to add another one to a very large trophy cabinet so I think it's just it's one of those things it just has that buzz regardless of whether you're English or Australian maybe I'm a little bit biased because I'm one of those people that will stay up in the night when it's on in Australia and um and then I'm very bad very bagged under the eyes the next day but it's all worth it and I think it's just one of those things

got this historical impact the men's obviously has that huge history and then the ashes in the little urn and then there was a plaque actually unveiled at Lords the other day celebrating 25 years basically England and Australia women decided they wanted their own actual ashes so both teams signed a bat each,

and they got the rules of the women's game, and they burnt them, and they made their own ashes. So it really is the men's ashes and the women's ashes. And on a really positive note for the women's ashes as such this year, it's really moved into that it is referred to now as the men's ashes and the women's ashes rather than's ashes and the women's ashes rather than the ashes and the women's ashes and that I know language you know it just sounds like one small thing but language is so important that I think that's a really big step as well um has the

England women's team ever beaten the Australian team? Yes. In the ashes, yes. Yeah. I think we last held it in, I think it was 2014. So it's time. I was actually leaving

in Australia at the time so that was exciting. I'm seeing a connection though, Bristol, Australia. You seem to be where the action is, where it happens. Yeah, this is a shout out

to everyone who just want to fund me to go to every England game forever more and we'll never lose again there you go I'll take my lucky bra

with me and we're all set so they have so they have it's been a while it probably is time for people who are tuning in

just before I let you go who are uninitiated so to speak who should they watch oh who to watch out for so on the England side I mean Tammy Beaumont I'm not sure she's in the who are uninitiated, so to speak, who should they watch? Oh, who to watch out for? So on the England side,

I mean, Tammy Beaumont, I'm not sure she's in the team yet today, but she's just come back in the squad. She scored 200 in the test match a few weeks ago, and she's been in really good form for her domestic side, the Blaze, as well. And I'd love to see her in there. But the likes of Sophie Eccleston,

she is the top bowler in the world she's only 24 this left arm spinner and she's just game changing she really can just turn a game on its head with the ball so I'd say she's one to watch out for and as a person who just can't bowl spin to save her life I find it mesmerizing and then also Danny Wyatt she's in great form with the bat. She can, these are slightly smaller boundaries perhaps at Bristol, so she can clear those

and it's going to be really exciting to watch. I think if people didn't have an interest in cricket before hearing you, they will now, Georgie. Thanks so much. Enjoy the game. Thanks so much for pulling over for us. And you can join the Test Match Special Team at 12 45 on bbc radio for sports extra if you can't get a ticket and it sounds like

many have not been able to who wanted to thanks to all of you that are getting in touch um you know we're talking about the snoring here's one here's a solution try singing not at night time i joined a choir and my snoring stopped. Here's another. I have a retainer and that has a retainer stop snoring brace from my dentist. Oh, it's a specific thing. Okay, it's brilliant. So that seems to work as well.

I have a good friend who holidayed with me recently. I love the sound of her snoring. So says Rob. There you go. Maybe it can be an attractive feature characteristic. Keep them Rob. There you go. Maybe it can be an attractive feature, characteristic. Keep them coming. 8-4-8-4-4.

Right. I want to turn next to a truly inspiring woman who has lived through so much upheaval and change in her home country of Afghanistan. Shakur Doj.

Jafari, known as Shakur, was born in 1977. She became a refugee when she was six, fleeing Iran. After the fall of the Taliban with a degree in radiation technologies, she moved back to Afghanistan

with her husband and young daughter and secured a teaching post in radiology at Kabul Medical University. But then she was asked to re-establish, this was a prestigious job, to re-establish a cancer facility in Kabul and to secure that post she needed more qualifications. So came to the UK in 2010 and became the first Afghan woman to earn a PhD in medical physics. Not content with that,

she's also the inventor of a method for improving outcomes of radiotherapy on cancer patients. That is to do with little beads. We'll hear about that too. But she also found time to write her life story, Shakar, an Afghan woman's journey. And she's a leading campaigner now for girls' education in Afghanistan. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. It's so good to have you with us. Why did you want to write your life story? Well, when I started my PhD, I started receiving

a lot of help requests from academics and girls who wanted to follow my footsteps. And when I was explaining to them how I managed one by one overcome the challenges, they suggested if there was a book. It started being in the back of my mind. And then I attended conferences like the Women in Physics in Oxford and another one in Cambridge. And when I gave my speech, I started again receiving requests for if there is any book, they could read the detail of a story. And the story is incredible. I mean, you've gone around the globe, but I want to start at the beginning because I mentioned Afghanistan. Your family fled to Iran. That was a place that was considered much more open at that point and more possibilities. There was talk of marriage, I think even from the age of 11 or so,

but you managed to avoid that three times. Tell me about that. Yes. So I heard from my parents that I was engaged to my cousin when I was just a newborn baby and how my name was chosen by my potential father-in-law, which was my uncle. And then when I was 14, they came to take me and hold the marriage ceremony.

I managed to cancel that. Wow, how did this little girl do that? Well, I was really upset about the arrangement because I wanted to continue my education. And as talks were going on about marriage ceremony, I went outside being quite upset. And my father realized that. He came to me and said, I don't see how this is going to work, knowing your personality and your uncle's family personality. And added that as a baby, you could not make a promise, could you? And then continued, but I can't say anything in front of my

older brother and went back in. That gave me the hint. I went in and wrote a letter to my cousin explaining my reasons, our age difference, my life scope and prospect that I had in my head. And I begged him that I know you are in the position to force me, but please don't do that because you will turn your life and my life into a living hell and then I wished him all the best finding another girl and he kindly accepted the suggestion

What a beginning right to this life that you have had you did continue to finish your education on the husband front and I want to come back to this because I think it was a big part of your story as well. The person

you chose. Do you want to tell our listeners about that? Yeah, so when I started having lots of pressure from society, relatives and family that I'm not getting married because at that time girls at 14, 15 years of age was getting married.

I started making a short list of suitable candidates because we were refugees in Iran and there were only few of us who managed to go to school because of issuing ID cards that was going on for refugees. And it was very difficult to find someone who is educated at your level. So I started shortlisting those people. And then when I heard about my husband, that he has university education, I put that top of my short list and then suggested to my mom to go and visit the town that he was living in because he was friends of a common friend. And we stayed at their home. It was normal in our culture. And quite naturally, things turned on why you're not married yet. And I said, well, I'm not really fussy, but I couldn't yet find a suitable candidate.

They said, what's your criteria? I said, nothing special, just educated person who is ethical and kind. And that's all I want. And they said, well, we might know someone. And it has been a happy marriage. And you've gone on this journey together. I want to turn to your PhD, jumping ahead with your education.

It was about radiation treatment and how the accuracy or the efficiency of the treatment could be improved, which you have created as an innovator. What was it that drew you to that area? I was actually shocked seeing the statistics of cancer survival, even in an advanced country like UK. Because that's where you were doing your research at that time. Exactly. So I looked into, as a physicist, what I can do about it, how I can improve the situation. And one of the key problems in radiation treatment

area was, yes, we were scanning patient, doing our treatment plan the best we could, but there was no precise and high accurate feedback system to tell us on the day of treatment, patient has received what we have planned. So I looked into possibilities of finding really tiny radiation detectors that I could place many of them inside the patient body and get a high resolution, high accurate measurement. So based on real measurement, we could adjust the dose to the next session of treatment because radiotherapy is given up to 35 fractions and there is time to correct if we know what has gone wrong. And then I looked at the literature, what material could be good radiation detectors and got inspired by work of my supervisor,

Professor David Bradley, who were using optical fibers as radiation detectors. But I needed something to be accessible, affordable, easier to use even in Afghanistan. And you came up with? Jewelry beads. Like so we're talking about those tiny little beads that you might have on a bracelet. Yeah and I can see some of the glass stones in your ring which which equally could be radiation detector. Yes, so the size of a little bead or a stone in your ring. That's a really good way of thinking about it. Yes. So it was an aha moment that I realized those beads have similar material composition as optical fibers.

And I went to a craft shop next day, bought a pack, tested in radiation lab and I couldn't believe the results. And so with this you are able to A, diagnose how much radiation is actually going into the person's body and alleviate symptoms of radiation. So when we have an accurate direct measurement inside the body, then clinicians can see if the healthy organs are overdosed and reduce the dose to them. If tumor received less dose to boost the dose to the tumor, and that way to adapt the radiation treatment, which give much better success rate and much better quality of life for patients. It's incredible, because it's in one way, you've just explained it in a way that we can understand. So obviously, simple in that way, but so complex in others.

I do want to turn also to the fact that you were doing all this work in cancer. You got breast cancer and discovered you were pregnant at the same time. You had to make that decision, which you did, about keeping the baby despite having chemotherapy. How do you remember that time? Oh my god such a turbulence time of my life. Yeah it was mid-September 2018 when I found the lump and referred to breast clinic and with the first mammogram, it's sometimes not good to know too much about. As I saw the image in the screen and enlarged lymph node, I immediately realized what's going on. So, yeah, everything planned.

And the last question on MRI scan form was, are you pregnant? I don't think so, but I'm a couple of days late for my monthly period. And I did the test, couldn't believe the complexity. Book termination immediately after talking to my GP because I didn't think it is possible to keep the baby. But in an emergency appointment with my surgeon, Mrs. Zaydi, Dr. Zaydi suggested, did you know we can change your treatment plan if you wanted this baby? And I returned home, discussed it with my husband and girls, and they said, your own health is our priority. But if nothing is going wrong with the treatment, we are happy to help. And my daughter said they will be at the age if baby left without mom, they could help dad raising

him. And then we did check at every stage. And now we have a four-year-old bouncing boy. That's great, healthy and well. I want to turn to Afghanistan because I know you've written this as we began talking about to be an inspiration to girls and young women who are struggling in Afghanistan right now. It's a pretty dire situation for those living there. How do you see a way forward for those girls and young women as we come up to two years since the Taliban takeover? Yeah, the situation is really, really sad. And what we could do with some of the friends, diaspora around the world to create an online school for them called Education Bridge for Afghanistan. And I know the schools and workplaces are shut at the moment, but there is still access to internet. I know not in the very vast majority of people have access,

but still are doors and windows to look into. And I suggest girls and women take this as an opportunity to improve their personal development, to improve their education through online university attendance and schools. at the moment, but there are so many international exam programmes that after they finish their high school education online, they can sit on the exam, get an international qualification, high school degree and apply for universities abroad. Just very, very short. Can you see yourself going back to Afghanistan, yes or no? After Taliban, yes. Really lovely to speak to you. Shakar is the book

Shakar Dut Jafari from Afghanistan. Thanks so much for spending some time with us here on Women's Hour. Thank you for inviting me to your lovely programme. Now I want to turn on to a development regarding courts in Scotland and how the system there differs to the rest of the UK

it's a topic of much debate. The top law officer there has put forward proposals to change the way evidence in rape trials is presented. Lord Advocate Dorothy Bain believes distress should be used as a valid form of evidence, something which is already possible in England and Wales, but not in Scotland. For some, they hope that this could give more cases

their chance to get to court. But for others, there are questions around whether this could lead to wrongful convictions and if the already struggling system can cope with this new demand. Sandy Brindley is chief executive of the Rape Crisis Scotland and welcomes these changes. Thomas Leonard Ross, KC, is a serious crimes barrister and thinks the system should stay the same. Welcome to both of you. Thomas, let me begin with you. The reason the system in Scotland is different is because of something called corroboration.

Can you explain briefly what this is and how it applies to rape cases? Well, the position in short is that in Scotland, the material facts in the case, the important facts required to be proved by evidence from at least two sources and in a rape prosecution one of the material facts is that there has been intercourse between the parties, I'll use that term, and therefore there has to be two sources often in relation to the cases which come to court presently there will be the complainer's account supported by perhaps DNA evidence or the complainer's account supported by the fact that the accused says when interviewed that he did have intercourse with the female but it was consensual

so those are the cases which come to court now. The problem, as the Lord Advocate sees it, is that in the cases where there is neither scientific support nor an admission, then there will be insufficient evidence of intercourse. And in those circumstances, the case can't even get off the ground. So whereas if there was two sources of evidence of intercourse, then the fact that the complainer was seen to be distressed could provide evidence of the next stage, namely that it happened without her consent. But in Scotland until now, they have stopped short of allowing distress to corroborate the fact of the intercourse. I understand. So it's very much interconnected in that way. Sandy, what do you think would happen

if distress could be used as evidence? What would it mean exactly in court? Well, what we know is, as Tommy's outlined, is that this can act as a real barrier to cases getting to court, often because it's quite natural for people to delay reporting rape, for example, because they're shocked or they're not sure whether or not they want to report.

So delayed reporting is really common, but what that can mean is the reporting is too late for forensic evidence to be gathered, so it can be very, very difficult to then corroborate penetration. And this can act as an absolute barrier to cases getting to court. And it can particularly impact historic child abuse cases

where there's very unlikely to be any forensic evidence. So there's been a number of survivors have spoken out really powerfully, including a group called Speak Out Survivors to make the case that if they'd been abused south of the border, their case could have got into court. But because they were sexually

abused in Scotland, there's no possibility of their case getting to court. And I think that can feel like an absolute injustice. But I think it's important to be clear that this is about removing a barrier for cases to get to court. it doesn't mean that we're going to see necessarily an increase in convictions. OK, that's interesting. And I'll come to that in just a moment. But I think my listener might be thinking, Thomas, what would evidence of distress be? How would you quantify that or qualify that? Well, the case which the Lord Advocate has brought is based on a real trial which happened in Aberdeen High Court, where the accused was acquitted. And the circumstances seemed to be that the couple were in a flat, that the girl alleged that she was raped in the flat.

Her boyfriend came to the door and she went to the door in a distressed condition. So she was upset, tearful, I think, and immediately complained to him that she had been raped. So that's a real life example. And what happened in that case was that the trial judge told the jury that that could not be used as evidence of penetration. He was acquitted. Nobody will ever know if that's the reason why he was acquitted, but it gave the Lord Advocate the opportunity to bring a reference to the appeal court, essentially to say that the law should, if that is the law, then the law should be changed. And it won't affect the acquittal, but it will affect the law going forward. You know, I think the first thing I think of with that evidence of distress, does everybody consider distress the same thing?

Does everybody act in the same way, even though they are distressed? I mean, something being tearful might be something that is commonly thought of. But of course, people can have so many reactions, I'm sure, after an incident like that which was alleged. Thomas, do you think this should go ahead? I think it will go ahead. I can see the argument for it. I mean, I've read the Lord Advocate's legal submissions

and they're very good. In fact, the corroboration doctrines are practically worth nothing in sexual cases. They've stretched it to the point where it really provides very little by way of a protection already. This will stretch it further. So, you know, I think it's inevitable. I can see the access to judgment argument, access to justice argument. I mean, I think it will have resource implications. It's already two and a half years in Scotland, sometimes from the incident to the trial. And this will generate

a lot more cases. But I'm not saying that's a good argument for denying people access to justice. I'm really just pointing out that it will have practical consequences. But as a barrister, do you have any concerns? I don't have any concerns. No, I don't. I mean, the reason that we've got to this position is that some people occasionally make false complaints, not suggesting it's a huge number, people. And that's why we have corroboration. That's why every legal system has checks upon an individual witness's evidence. So I'm a bit concerned that the last of the checks will be removed. But I can also open my mind to see the competing argument that if it means that a genuine complainer cannot even get to court, then I can see that argument too. Sandy, has it made a difference

to the number of rape convictions in England and Wales that has used evidence of distress? No, I mean, I think that's a really interesting point, is that the situation in England and Wales is at least as bad, if not worse, than it is in Scotland in relation to the very small number of reported rapes that get to court. So I think it is important to say that while this is a positive development for us in Scotland, it is not the whole part of the

picture in terms of what needs to happen to improve justice responses to rape. So the Scottish Government introduced recently to the Scottish Parliament a bill which is looking at introducing some quite substantial reforms to how justice responds to rape in Scotland, including the introduction of specialist courts for sexual offences, legal representation for complainers in certain circumstances, and also piloting rape and attempted rape cases in front of a judge alone rather than a jury. So I think while this Lord Advocate's reference is important, although we do have some concerns, as you've illustrated, about how distress is conceived of because people do respond really differently to rape, but it's positive, but it has to be seen,

I think, in a wider context of the change that's needed. Let me turn back to you, Thomas. Cases like this to defend, can you explain what that's like? And would it be more difficult with this law change or indeed put lawyers off from taking cases like this? I can answer that question in this way. I've already told all the solicitors who give me cases, I'm not doing any more sex cases.

Why? I'm using doing any more sex cases. Why? I'm using to take them on. Well, you know, a combination of factors has created quite a hostile atmosphere towards those who defend people in rape cases. And, you know, it's causing quite serious distress to the advocates who take them on in Scotland. There's a whole variety of obstructions whereby you're restricted in the questions that you can ask potential victims. In addition, there have been a number of developments where people have cross-examined complainers in actual real-life cases, and the cross-examination has been put on Twitter, for example, which has led to the advocate's family being personally abused for his conduct.

These are all factors which make people like me think it's not worth it. It's not worth doing it any longer. But you don't think that there's a duty to that alleged person who's accused? There's 450 advocates, you know, I'm not worried that anybody's going to be unrepresented. But by who is the question? Well, every year, you know, we're having a dozen people coming out, qualifying as advocates. What I'm saying is we need to be careful about it because there's no doubt that the people who are defending back to back sex cases are considering their options. They're leaving the profession. They're applying for jobs as sheriffs, as tribunal judges, that kind of thing. There's a drain because this hostile atmosphere has been created so far as people who defend

sex cases are concerned. There's no lobby. There's no rapist lobby, you know. I have to leave it there. Really interesting though. We'll look into that further. Thomas Leonard Ross, KC and Sandy Brindle. Thank you, Brindley, excuse me.

Thank you both so much. And thanks to you for joining me on Woman's Hour. I'll see you Monday. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I Woman's Hour. I'll see you Monday. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. super volcanoes, mushrooms and... Sharks, ancient DNA and are we what we eat? And we'll be joined by Harry Hill, Chris Van Tilleken, Ben Wilbond,

Rachel Parris, Dr Nair, and Professor Nian. They're very good. The new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. If you're in the UK, you can hear it all. Right now on BBC Sounds. Do you know what?

We nearly did a really professional trailer, but then that last bit has spoiled it. I think we're going to get told off again. Yeah. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.