Woman's Hour - Wes Streeting MP, Novelist Elizabeth Arnott, Comedian Susie McCabe

Episode Date: April 15, 2026

A renewed Women’s Health Strategy for England has been published today. The first Women’s Health Strategy came out in July 2022 under the Conservative government, with this ‘refresh’ being put forward as a ‘chance to travel further and faster’. However with over half a million women still waiting for gynaecological care in England and many women saying they don't feel listened to, why has there been so little progress? Nuala McGovern discusses the renewed strategy with the Health Secretary Wes Streeting. Author Elizabeth Arnott talks to Nuala about her novel, The Secret Lives of Murderers' Wives, which investigates the impact of violent crime, not only on its victims, but also on the people closest to the criminals. The story follows Beverley, Elsie and Margot, who all discovered they were married to serial killers too late to save the women they murdered. Set in 1960s California, in an era where the understanding of the “serial killer” phenomenon was in its infancy, these women find themselves in a unique position to dig into the psychology of their husbands and band together, using their knowledge of dangerous men, to track down other violent predators. Scottish comedian Susie McCabe is a stalwart of the BBC comedy scene - from The News Quiz and Breaking the News, to Just a Minute and Have I Got News For You. It was in 2024, while touring, that she had a heart-attack – she was only in her mid-forties at the time. It made her not only take a long hard look at her life, but it also inspired her latest show, Best Behaviour. Susie joins Nuala to discuss making comedy gold out of life's trials and tribulations. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Andrea Kidd

Hello, this is Newellamogarine, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. I'm taking your questions this morning for the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Wes Streeting, as he announces a renewed women's health strategy for England. We want to hear about the government's plan to change a culture of medical misogyny. Also, how they'll cut diagnosis times and bring down waiting lists for women to get in touch. You can text the program, the number is 84844 on social media. we're at BBC Woman's Hour,

or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number is 0-3700-100-444. Also today, the Scottish comedian, Susie McCabe, who makes comedy gold out of life's trials and tribulations, and we have the author, Elizabeth Arnott, on her new novel, The Secret Lives of Murderer's Wives,

where she explores how the wives of serial killers are often scrutinized, perhaps more harshly than they should be. But let us begin. A renewed women's health strategy for England has just been published. And with me in the Women's Hour studio to discuss it is Health Secretary Westreating. Good morning. Good morning.

Now, you're going to be taking some of our listeners' questions shortly. But first, I want to begin with the first women's health strategy came out in July of 2022. That was under the Conservative government. Your refresh is being put forward as a chance, and I quote, to travel further and faster. but with over half a million women still waiting for kind of ecological care in England, why has there been such little progress? That's a great question. And the reason why we've set this out as a renewed women's health strategy is,

and I know this is not the done thing in politics, and it's definitely not the done thing to say in the middle of an election campaign. But when the Conservatives put the first women's health strategy out, we actually welcomed it. We welcomed both the initiative and the, the substance and Dame Leslie Regan, who was the previous government's women's health ambassador, we kept on because she's brilliant and has been a big part of renewing the women's health strategy. I think there's two things. In part, the failure to

deliver timely access to care for women can be explained by the generally poor performance we saw in the NHS, which was declining year on year. We started to arrest that decline. waiting lists are now falling, but, and the BBC's data and report today shows this really clearly, while it is true to say that waiting lists rose for the general population, they rose even faster and higher in women's healthcare, particularly around the Guiney waiting list, for example. And I think that is a symptom of a deeper culture, which we are naming and being unequivocal about in this strategy, which is a culture of medical misogyny, sexism in the NHS, both conscious

and unconscious bias, which means even in an NHS that's getting worse or was getting worse for everyone, it was getting disproportionately worse for women. So there's a couple of things there and I want to get to that medical misogyny. But you know, you've been in charge for two years now. Why wait until this point to say it's not fit for purpose? Well, I think a couple of things. I mean, firstly, we haven't been sat on our hands in those two years. So waiting lists are falling. The gynecology waiting list has fallen by 30,000. I want to get into that drop in the ocean compared to the numbers that they're. I'll get into the specifics of that in a moment. But, you know, really since it's 22, that came out four years. I know not in power for all of that time, but for half of it. So what was the delay? Well, and in part because when we came in, there was a lot to sort out across the entire NHS. And we came in, we started with Lord Darcy's diagnosis of the entire system.

We've been focused on the sort of core priorities of improving waiting lists, ambulance response times, A&E waiting times, access to general practice across the whole population. And I'll be honest, my view when we came in was we've got the women's health strategy that was done by the previous government. And we got to a point where as I was meeting groups of women around different issues, from maternity through to gynecology and getting this general feedback across the board in whichever part of the NHS we were talking about and whether we were talking about women's health-specific issues or general health issues that affect all of us, but I was hearing from women, including in my own family, I was clear that the one thing,

thing that the last women's health strategy, I think, didn't do was both explicitly confirm and stand up a government view that there is a problem with medical misogyny. And secondly, what I think this, where I think this strategy goes above and beyond is around women's voices, choices and power. So let's get into some of those issues. I mean, when you're talking about A&E and ambulance, waiting times, etc., it could be, some might say, was it the women then that had to wait at the expense of picking apart the health system as a whole? Women's voices and choices that you speak about there. That was

in the women's health strategy. Women and girls feel listened to and have their concerns taken seriously at every stage in their journey. That's what was in it specifically. How is that going to change? What are you going to do specifically so that their voices are heard? Yeah. So I think those are laudable aims, but how do you make sure that it bites in practice? How do you make sure you really deliver that in actions, not just words? And I think there are a couple of key things among many in this strategy. The first is we set in our 10-year plan for health that we would do and trial an approach called patient power payments. That's where having had a course of treatment in the NHS, you will be asked as a patient

whether you are satisfied. And if you are not satisfied by your experience, you can withhold a proportion of that payment. So the provider fills the financial sting and the money that the provider would have got into the general pot for funding would then go into a specific improvement fund for that area of medicine. And in that context of, as you put it,

women being asked to wait longer or being deprioritized, we're trialing that patient power payment first in gynecology. Well, let's talk about that a little bit further. You've given an explanation of how you see it go, but I don't really understand it in practice. I go to a GP, for example, they don't deliver in the way I want them to.

You withhold a certain proportion of that payment. Where does it go then? Well, we're going to start in gynaecology. I'm just thinking that the person, the woman behind me waiting, is that any better that that GP hasn't got the full payment for the previous? So we're going to start in gynaecology. And if women have bad experiences,

as they too often do, the trust will not be paid for that intervention for the woman in question and instead it will go into a gynecology improvement fund that would support the same trust to improve but what I've learned in the last two years as health secretary is that in the NHS over and above everything money talks and if you've got CEOs and CFOs in trusts who are feeling that pinch in their bottom,

bottom line from women saying, this isn't good enough, that is going to make them sit up, take notice and respond because there is effectively a financial penalty for the trust. So basically going with the stick and hoping that works. But how big will this trial be? And when is it happening? Well, we're going to start rolling it out from this year. We're working with NHS leaders at the moment because we want to make sure that it works in practice, doesn't generate unintended consequences. And the crucial thing for me, especially is we're starting in gynecology is the money that the trust is effectively penal, receives the penalty for, goes into gynecology improvement. So, you know, women's health doesn't lose out

in that sense and we drive real improvements in gynecology. The other thing that we're doing, because, and this goes to, I think, the heart of the cultural challenge we've got in the NHS, it is entirely conceivable that in terms of a woman's experience, as far as the NHS is concerned, on a spreadsheet, on data metrics, we might think job well done. She's been seen quickly. The course of treatment she's received has been effective and by an objective measure the outcome was successful. She's cured or the condition is ameliorated in some way. Yet that woman may well have experienced what is too common in the NHS of not being listened to, pain not being taken seriously enough, which is, I think, an endemic problem across the NHS.

And so she may have actually come through an experience that the NHS has pat herself on the back for, feeling quite disempowered, quite gaslit and reluctant to access services again. And that is why we're developing and implementing a patient reported set of experience measures. So we're not just looking at the timeliness of the care and whether the outcome is successful. We're asking women about their experiences. I understand from the power payments. We have a lot to get through. So let me move back to gynecology waiting list.

You say you've brought them down by 30,000. You mentioned that figure. But we do know they're still at the highest of all speciality waiting lists. BBC analysis shows they've gone up 98% since 2020. Now that is against the average increase of 58% for waiting lists generally. That's all since about the pandemic. So why are there 565,000 women in England still waiting? for gyne care, health secretary.

Because as the BBC analysis shows, the waiting lists went up generally under our predecessors and disproportionately for women. So the test for me personally and my record as health secretary is can I do the reverse? As I am reducing the waiting list for everyone, can I reduce them disproportionately for women in women's health? That's my aim.

And one of the things I'm going to be doing off the back of this strategy. So we've got the gynecology waiting list beginning to fall as you said and the BBC's report today shows with their graph. But I've got a general problem here across the NHS or a general challenge, which is waiting lists of falling, lowest level in three and a half years. Fine. That's progress in the right direction. But the scale of the challenge is still big and I have to increase momentum. So one of the things that I will be doing over the coming year and throughout this term in office in Parliament is I'm going to. be looking at the gynecology waiting list specifically,

following, tracking that data in the way that I do the general NHS waiting list with the challenge set for NHS leaders. I want this waiting list falling, but falling faster than the overall NHS waiting list. Can I do that? It's going to be a challenge. So trying to get from 98%, which it is at the moment in the amount it's gone up, 58% for the waiting list generally.

So that is a giant percentage you're looking for to drop? It's more about, because I want to be realistic, and I don't want to, I don't want to over promise and then under-deliver, but I also want to make sure that we've got the ambition there. So as the waiting list is falling, the challenge for me is, can I get the waiting list for gynecology falling faster than the overall? What numbers are we, if we're talking about $5,000,000, we're talking about 565,000 women, what number would be acceptable to you?

Well, you know, over the course of this Parliament, we want to reduce the waiting time from, 18 months to 18 weeks, which will require us overall to half the size of the NHS waiting list. And of course, the waiting list is dynamic. You have people going on and off all the time. So it's not so much about the specific figure in mind. It's more about can I get the waiting times down to 18 weeks. 18 weeks. And can I do that faster for the Guiney waiting list for others? I think that would be, I think that would be both morally the right thing to do, given the disproportionate rise in the waiting list under our predecessors. but I also think

what I'm trying to shift here with this strategy is yes, a change in practice but also a change in the culture of the NHS which is a lot harder to be honest as a politician because as hard as they are, process problems, money problems, well, you can change a policy, you can try and find some money.

When it comes to culture, it's a lot harder to measure and you have to kind of keep going at it. But those, if there was a change in waiting list times, as you mentioned, that sounds like that would be expensive to make happen. Are you putting significant funds towards it? Overall, we've got £26 billion more going into the NHS.

But what about women's health specifically? Well, with the waiting list generally, that is our top priority. And so in order to cut the waiting list for gynecology and all of the other waiting lists that we've got, we are putting more money into cutting weighting lists. And we're modern. So big part of the women's health strategy is also modernising the pathway because what we're often seeing across different specialties

is old school and unnecessarily longer pathways which we need to try and shrink and we've got more diagnostic technology now. We've got better understanding. We've got better treatments. So we've got to try and shrink those waiting time, the time it takes to completely. In a moment, there didn't seem to be a lot of extra money

that I could see as I look through it. I want to bring in a listener Carol, though, who wrote to us and she said she's recurring UTIs, your tract infections and asks, how do I get to see a consultant gyne? A woman, please. There's an eight-month waiting list. How can Carol expect to see that woman?

So there's a couple of things. One is we're going to introduce a single point of access for all non-urgent referral to gynecology and women's health services to speed up better access to treatment because a lot of women will be experiencing pain, discomfort. they wouldn't necessarily always qualify in the sort of technical, clinical definition as urgent. But if you're in pain, it feels urgent. Of course.

We all can identify with that. So that will help. And then also redesigning, as I was just describing the clinical pathways in the most common conditions like heavy periods, menopause and Eurogynecology. So for both of those things, we should be speeding up access to a, an expert to a consultant. And the final thing is when we launch NHS online next year, which is going to be our new online trust that will give

faster access through online consultations with consultants. Among the very first conditions going on there will be gynecology. So all of these things are going to help in terms of women's health. But I would imagine there's a lot of women thinking hang on, the gynecological issue that

I have, how is that going to be treated using digital GP or a virtual hospital. These things are generally very hands-on. Yeah, and that's why it's very much about speeding up, because when I think about how do I get people seen faster and how do I turn this NHS around, it's trying to get every bit of the patient journey done as fast as possible. So everyone will initially kind of have that face-to-face consultation with someone. And obviously it will vary depending on your symptoms.

But if a woman can be seen faster face-to-face through a specialist online, they may well require physical examination following that consultation as they would any other consultation in person. They will then be referred to a local provider who will then do that in-person examination. The crucial thing, though, is because of the way NHS online will be set up, is very likely that that first initial appointment will have taken place faster. so her access to the next stage will by definition be quicker. Let's talk about endometriosis. Huge topic.

We've covered many times on this programme. I want you to listen to Zoe Trafford. She has had endometriosis since she was a teenager. She first spoke to the BBC in 2022. Four years on, she's had her womb and part of her bowel removed. She's had to give up her job as a hairdresser. She spoke to the BBC's health correspondent, Catherine Burns. Four years on, I'm not in the best health.

I can't work, I can't stand, I can't sit. I live with chronic pain and since all the surgeries, my old body's just completely changed. I'm not that same person. I have to self-caverterise now because it's end of metacusus and it's embarrassing. I feel like I've lost my identity now.

I still don't feel like I'm being heard. I'm not being listened to. basically I've had the surgery and off you pop but I'm having more and more complications nobody seems to understand or know what to do with me and being passed from from urology to guine back to the GP and it's just like I'm in a vicious circle and no one seems to know what to do with me now

so if I'd have been listened two years ago I probably wouldn't be in the mess that I'm in now how's that make you feel angry sad frustrated and I think why don't women get listened to? I don't think it's fair I don't think it's fair at all

I love to spend time with my son we've always gone out together and done lots of things but now I feel like I can't be the same and it takes me a few days to recover from just going out for the day and I feel like a bad mum it's like mum guilt isn't it

because I feel like I should be able to I'm only 41 years of age. I feel like them should be 91. That was Zoe Trafford. Our listeners have been letting us know their questions for you on this as well. Here's Emma. She says, why does it still take over

eight years to receive a diagnosis for endometriosis? Actually, I was doing some reporting on it last week. It's gone up to nine years and four months. Yeah, indeed. Emma continued to say it's appalling the systemic level of acceptable female pain for such a debilitating condition can be just brushed aside by so many healthcare professionals

over a prolonged period of time. Linda says, can you please ask Wes Streting how he's going to get help for women with endometriosis? My daughter, who's 26, has been suffering huge pain for several years and has been on constant waiting lists. She's still awaiting diagnosis details from the MRI scan that she had in December of 2025. It seems women are being let down and left to get on with it on their own.

There was a GP in a remote part of England who also got in touch saying women's health crosses different specialist boundaries. You can have endometriosis, adenomyosis, but you might also present with gastric, urological, lower GI, abdominal, not to mention dysregulated or disordered hormone function. These women are there ricocheting from specialist to specialist. Your response to that?

I was really struck, kind of just listening to Zoe there. You know, she said at the end, I feel like I'm 91. she sounded, she sounded, I thought she was, I thought I was listening to someone who was much older and frail and I was quite shocked actually. I mean, I've experienced this in my own family with a relative who, it has taken 21 years to get an accurate diagnosis, which my relative received just in the last week. And in that case, it wasn't endo, but that was the assumption all the way through. But this is the NHS under your watch? Yeah, it is. And this is the responsibility, I feel.

And one of the things that sort of radicalised me a bit actually on medical misogyny is kind of the experiences of women that I love and the way they have been treated, including right down to going to see the GP on two occasions with severe pain and only when she went back with her partner on the third occasion. and he vouched for her pain was my relative taken seriously. And it made my blood boil. And it made her blood boil. And she challenged the doctor directly saying,

oh, you know, is this what's required? Do we need men to vouch for women before we're listened to? And so that is the case at the moment. 100%. And that's why, you know, against like some of the internal opposition we have and some of the kind of nonsense that some of my parliamentary colleagues have experienced when trying to get debates on medical misogyny in Parliament and being told this isn't a common.

commonly accepted term. Like, we've just got this like endemic problem that women see an experience. But, you know, when you try and name it and call it out, people like, oh, I don't know, I don't think, I don't think we should go around saying that. It's like, you know, I do think we, I do think this is about culture. But anyway, to the specifics here on endo, because it's so important, this is where providing those access to specialists, making sure that women have got those routes in. being able to, when necessary and sadly, circumvent the GP is really important.

Women's health hubs have been really important in that, and we've been rolling those out across the country, and I give credit to our predecessors for that too. But one of the things that this strategy seeks to do is make sure that while women have got that route, that we are also challenging the fundamental issue here through the training of GPs, through the pathways that GPs can refer into,

and there's got to be ownership of, women in these conditions. But listening to that battle, I mean, I could hear it in Zoe's voice. She's clearly had to fight and battle and is weary for it. It shouldn't be a fight. I want to thank Zoe for that message. I do want to move on to a couple of other questions while I have you. It has been announced that single sex-based guidance for organisations will be published soon. No date attached. We're now a year on from the Supreme Court ruling that the terms woman and sex in the Equality Act refer to a biological woman and biological sex. Why is it taken so long? Well, it will be out in May.

Will it be May? Yes, I spoke to Bridgett Phillipson, the Equality Secretary yesterday. She's absolutely clear. The only reason it's not published now is because we're in the pre-election period. And this applies to Great Britain. And with Scotland and Wales already in their formal pre-election period, Bridget's not been able to publish it at the time she intended, but it will be next month.

Why is it taken so long, though? I think is a fair question. I think it boils down to this. On one level, this is really simple. Sex matters, biology is immutable, and the women who have not been heard in terms of their rights, voices and spaces are now not only being listened to,

but have been vindicated in law. And the law of the land provides protection for women on the basis of sex. So that bit simple. Some of the complexity arises when, especially when thinking about the protection of women's spaces on the basis of sex, about where that then presents some practical challenges in also making sure that we protect the rights and the dignity and the safety of trans people.

For example, in the NHS we've had way too many single-sex breaches. Nothing to do with trans people, by the way. This is just biological men and women being far too often. accommodated in the same sorts of spaces when that's inappropriate. That's a sign of the NHS crisis. We'll be attempting to tackle that. But if we have got someone who is biologically female, but a trans man looks, sounds, acts, presents like a man, placing him in a women's ward would be degrading, distressing,

humiliating for him and would also be of enormous concern to women. So we have to make sure that there are appropriate spaces for him to be treated in an inappropriate space that protects his rights and dignity as well. And right across public sector and workplaces across the land, that has got to work in practice, not just in principle. And that's where some of the complexity has arisen. And we will see what that guidance is in May, as you say, which I had not heard that date previously. one more before I finish our conversation. Until recently, you were friends with Lord Mandelson. 18 months before his appointment, as US ambassador,

was reported that emails indicated there was contact between him and Jeffrey Epstein, even after Epstein's conviction for the sexual abuse of underage girls. They also indicated that Mandelson stayed in Epstein's apartment in New York while Epstein was in prison for these offences. When you said this February that you did not know about, the nature of Peter Mendelsohn's relationship with Geoffrey Epstein after his conviction. Was that because somehow you hadn't seen the news reports from 2023? They were chiefly in the Financial Times.

Or did it not concern you? The former, actually. You didn't see any of those news reports that were widely available? And I'll be honest, you know, when people would pop up on social media kind of laying those sorts of charges, they tended to be the sort of people who appear in your timeline trolling. And I just sort of, you know, didn't, I didn't think it could be kind of credible that he would have had that sort of relationship. Explain that to me a little bit further.

Also, you know, the news report was published. It really didn't get much pickup. Like, I don't remember that being a big story at the time. I didn't see the story at the time. And I do think, by the way, that does speak to, I think the point you're making on the latter question. which is about the way in which Peter Mandelson was not held to account at that time. So the FT did a report, but I don't remember seeing it in other newspapers. Mandelson still had a podcast.

He was appearing regularly on really big news programs. And so to be honest, like when, you know, the only time I sort of remember seeing stuff, you know, Mandelson Epstein, you just think, well, I haven't seen that really from Chris. He hasn't been questioned, but I think that must be overblown. This must just be people kind of, you know. Do you question your judgment now? Oh, of course. I mean, absolutely.

And like, no doubt about that. And, you know, what we've seen has been shocking on a number of levels. And yes, absolutely, his conduct as a government minister in terms of leaking documents is serious and important. And that does need to be addressed. And Gordon Brown in particular has every right to feel furious about that. But I think that should not distract from this fundamental question, which is why did Peter Mandelson think it was appropriate to continue that relationship with Epstein following his conviction? Why were not enough questions asked to Peter Mandelson about that? And that's a political failure.

It is also, I think, a media failure. And I think it stems from the same root cause, which is those women. those girls not being taken seriously enough, their experience is not mattering enough, and being deprioritised. And that is exactly the sort of sexism and misogyny at the root of the issue, I'm afraid. And I do feel, and I think all of us have to take responsibility for that. I do know you have another event to go to. Thank you so much for giving us of your morning. Great to come on, and I'm always happy to come back. Yeah, please do come back.

Hold my feet to the fire to make sure we do not just say. Health Secretary Westreiting, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks to you also for all your messages getting in. in touch, of course, we'll continue covering these issues as well on Women's Hour. Before we move on, however, let me just give the other main political parties in England's positions on the Women's Health Strategy. We reached out this morning to the Conservative Party, the Liberal Democrats, the Green Party and Reform UK.

So far, we've just heard back from the Liberal Democrats. Helen Morgan, excuse me, their health spokesperson said, we've seen the devastating toll that failures in maternity and women's health can take on families. Beggis belief that vital services remain understaffed and underfunded while women and girls go without the care that they need. We now need to back this talk with real investment in the services that impact women and which has been stretched to breaking point. The government must tackle rampant medical disinformation

which targets women and has become endemic on their watch and guarantee the one-on-one midwifery and specialist doctors on every unit that is essential for. safe maternity care. 8444-844 if you would like to get in touch. Now there's another chance to hear an inspiring story, one in a joyful series about women helping the planet or others in their community. Lester hairdresser, Emuola Landlaine, is the co-founder of Crown of Care, which is an event designed to provide free hairstyling and barbering service for looked-after black and mixed heritage children. Many children in care, especially those with

afro-textured hair, struggled to. to access proper grooming and cultural hair care. Last year, Emuola's mother nominated her in the volunteer category of a Make a Difference Award, which she won, saying it was for her courage, faith, commitment and determination to find a way of serving an underserved community. When I spoke to her, I asked her how she felt when she found out.

I literally had no idea. I found out when they called me to say that I was a finalist, like when the BBC called me, they were like, oh yeah, you've been nominated in X, Z. And then I called my mum and was like, oh my gosh, I've been nominated. She's like, yeah, I know. That's so great. She must be thrilled.

So tell us a little bit about what you do. I mean, I mentioned the headline there that you provide free hair care for looked after black and mixed heritage children. But what is it you do and why do you do it? So from before I started Crown with Care, I was already doing Afro hair classes for foster carers and parents. A lot of the time, the parents, you know, have different hair texture to their child. So it was already something that I was. I was aware of and something that I did. So I teach basic care techniques, basically.

And then Crown with Care kind of came about because I had a lot of clients who were looked after children just through referrals and stuff because people knew what I was doing. And I realised that this is a real need and there's something that I could do about this. So then it kind of all, I don't even know how it became an event, but it all kind of tied together.

And I was like, okay, we're doing it in an event. How would you describe crowned with care? So crowned with care is basically, at the moment it's just events, but it's going to be bigger than this. But it's basically where we do free hair styling, we offer free hair products and also hair education to both the looked-after children, specifically Black and Mixed Heritage,

because that's also my expertise, and we also offer education to the carers as well. So, for example, what is it that the carers or foster parents may not know? So a lot of the time, Black and mixed children are in transracial placement. So that means that they're with a carer who's a different. race to them. A lot of the time they don't understand our hair practices. Every type of culture has different hair practices, right? So, you know, they might not necessarily understand, but also a lot of the time due to the age or other things, other factors with the young person, they also don't understand

how to take care of their hair. So they left their family too young to have those practices. So they don't know, right? So then it becomes a thing where the carer doesn't quite understand. So they're doing what they would do with their hair, but then, you know, it's damaging the young person's hair. They're finding that, you know, their hair's breaking a lot. Afro-textured hair requires way different hair. You know, we don't, for example, need to wash our hair every day. We wash our hair like weekly every two weeks and that's fine for us because we have naturally dry a hair texture just due to the shape of our hair strands, right? So, but people don't know that. And they might think, well, I'm doing this. I'm trying my best to keep this child clean and happy and healthy.

But then sometimes that can actually counteract what, you know, what they actually need to be doing. So tell me then about the children that you work with. What's it like? I mean, they come in, they kind of get a little bit of pampering. Yeah, I mean, they absolutely love it. It's like, imagine you as like a 10 year old going into a salon, you've got everybody all like don't in over you and everything. They absolutely love it. And it's so impactful to a lot of them. And you know what? At first I thought, you know, it'd mainly be the little ones that would really, really enjoy it. But actually, it's the teenagers who are like, I want to fit in with my peers. That's the stage where you really need

to fit in, right? You need to have the hairstyles that everybody else has or whatever. And I found that that was really, really impactful for them in particular because it really felt like a time when, oh, I'm actually being listened to, you know, I've told my carer I need this and now I'm getting it. And it's also, you know, so much part of their identity. Exactly. Exactly. I think that's the case for everyone, right? Like, we don't think about it enough until you realize that when you don't have it, it's a huge problem. Like, we all think about our hair. That's probably the, you know, before you leave the house, you're like, does my hair look okay? Like, what's going on? Maybe it's more so me as a hairdresser. I think everybody

will be going, yeah, we get that. Everyone can relate to that. So it's like when you're in a position where, you know, the first thing people see when they look at you and you feel not very confident about it, you feel embarrassed by it, that can hugely affect yourself confidence

in your mental health. Emiola, Lanleyan, thank you so much for telling us your story. You can hear other inspiring women helping others in a program that is coming up soon. Now I want to turn to the author Elizabeth Arnett, her novel, The Secret Lives of Murderers Wives. It investigates the impact of violent crime and not only on its victims, but also on the people closest to the criminals.

This story follows Beverly, Elsie and Margot, who all discovered they're married to serial killers, but they found out too late to save the women that they murdered. It's set in 1960s, California, it's an era where the understanding of the serial killer phenomenon is really just in its infancy. these women find themselves in a unique position to dig into the psychology of their husbands and then band together using their knowledge of dangerous men to track down other violent predators. And Elizabeth's with me in the studio. Good morning.

Hi, thank you so much for having me. So this is so interesting, focusing on the wives of serial killers. Where do that come from? So I've always been fascinated by true crime, like so many of us are, like so many women. Even back in university 20 years ago, I wrote my dissertation on serial killers, much to the horror of my tutor,

who made me promise in writing not to contact any serial killers in prison. But more recently, I'd found myself drawn to a sort of flipped perspective story, stories of those who are tugged into the orbit of dangerous men through no fault of their own, and the ones who are left to sort of pick through the rubble and deal with the ramifications of violent crime,

the wives, the sisters, the daughters. And as I started to look into real-life stories of these women, two things became apparent. You know, the first was that these women are so very often silence. They're brushed aside, their lefters, footnotes to these men's stories. Real-life serial killers wives are very often forced to leave the state, take the children, change their names, you know, live a new identity. And, you know, the other thing was that with these women, there were so very often by the general public and by the media an assumption of complicity. She must have known.

Yes, the pointed fingers, the headlines. How could she not have known? And this all made me really angry. You know, these women were so disempowered by the worst things that somebody else had ever done. I wanted to fictionalise some of these women, give them this experience, but also give them back some power. Why 1960s, California? So the 1960s and sort of mid to late 1960s was really a period when serial killer activity was starting to become very prevalent.

They weren't called... Particularly the states, right? Yes, absolutely. Particularly California. They weren't called serial killers at that time. That wasn't the term. But there was this general idea of the mass killer, the multiple killer, and there were headlines starting to be written about these men.

You had the Zodiac killer operating there, and you had the Boston Strangler and people like that. So I did want to tap into that sort of hotbed of serial killer activity. But also the FBI's behavior. behavioural analysis unit, that was set up in the early 70s. So that was the unit that was, you know, they had people profiling these killers. I wanted my women to almost scoop them at their game and use their own experience to solve these crimes. It was sort of a little joke to myself and a little joke to women everywhere. It's so interesting, though, isn't it, that it is

so modern, like some of the terms that we take for granted in a way. I want to bring a little reading from the book that you did for us. And it's very much focused. on one of your characters, which is Beverly, and the changing attitudes of her neighbours towards her. Beverly's husband was a killer. Beverly is used to being ignored by the neighbours. They'd clung to her like curious birds in the aftermath of Henry's arrest. They were so sure, just as Beverly had been,

that the police had arrested the wrong man. Poor Beverley, here's a casserole. Poor Beverley, I'll just stop by for a cup of coffee and we can have a good chat about it all. They wanted gossip, of course. and they gauped wide-eyed as she described helicopter blades, officers streaming in spreading dirt across the carpets, the mess the cadaver dogs made of the roses in the yard.

When it became clear that Henry, the heat wave killer, had in fact murdered seven women, the birds retreated, fast. If she was passing a neighbour as they were getting out of their car, they'd wait inside until she reached the end of the street. If someone was watering their lilacs and Beverly came out of her house to do the same, they'd put down their watering cans and slip wordlessly back inside. accusations swirled around the street. Everyone had an opinion.

She needs to go down as an accomplice. She'd hear them whisper. I don't understand how she's not as culpable as he is. There is no way in hell she didn't know. That's really a crux of it in a way. How much did you research the lives of real women who were married to serial killers? A lot.

What did you find? There are stories out there written by women who have been through this. You know, there are women who have been married to serial killers who have written books appeared on documentaries, podcasts and things like that. And, you know, they are,

they almost cannot win. You know, if speaking out about these things, they still deal with those questions from the general public and that absolute assumption that they must have known what was going on. But if you dig deep into these stories, you know, they do not know what do they say.

Because I think there'll be many people listening The same, surely, you know, you're sleeping in the same bed Perhaps as your partner and you would know that they're missing or that their personality is dangerous. I think there are multiple things. So Ted Bundy, he had a girlfriend when he was committing his crimes and she lived with him in his house and her daughter.

And when she, you know, she had suspicions that he was up to something. But when she actually found out what it was, you know, she famously said, there was just no context for it. You know, these women might assume that their husbands are having affairs or maybe these men are committing these crimes when their wives are out of town. But the main issue is these serial killers,

if you speak to experts about these serial killers, they are absolute masters at compartmentalisation. You know, they will be living in different identities themselves. They have the ability to believe that they are good father, good husband, and that is their role in the home. And then when they go out and commit these crimes, they are a completely different person. You know, there's a set of personality traits

that lots of experts will talk about when they talk about serial killers that allows them to have that compartmentalisation. Dennis Rader, who was a serial killer, he called himself BTK. He described it as cubing that was turning out different faces of a cube when he needed a different personality

and a different identity in different scenarios. And no... human, no woman is immune to being lied to, immune to being controlled or manipulated. And that's very often the case with these wives who discover that their husband has been doing these things. And of course, it's like women are on both sides of it, because as well as looking at the women married to these men, you also look at the women who are murdered and the attitudes towards them. Yes, exactly. And I think it's very important to say that, as with many serial killers, Take Ted Bundy, for example, killed upwards of 30 women.

Most of us cannot name a single one of his victims, yet we can buy a mouse mat with his face on, a phone case with his face on, a T-shirt. These men are held up to standards that turn them into pop culture icons, and their victims are left without a story to tell, and that's what I wanted to address. I mean, do you worry, you talked about serial killers you talked about, was a dissertation that you did on it.

I'd be curious on why you have that fascination and do you not worry that it is glorifying these killers in one respect? I think it's very natural for women in particular to be drawn to true crime and I think there are multiple reasons for that. Why? You know, one of them being absolutely that we feel as if we're in control if we look the beast in the eye and know the beast.

You know, as women, our lives are, constantly calculating risk, constantly knowing threat in consuming these true crime stories, which have a very neat beginning, middle, and end in a conclusion. So there's the comfort of the structure of story as well. We feel as if we're in control. But I do think we are ignoring a big part of our own selves if we dismiss the fact that we are drawn to the sensational and the gory. So tell me a little bit more about that, that part of ourselves. So in the 90s, for example, they would have called it wound culture, this collective gathering.

I never heard that term. Yeah, a collective gathering around torn and open bodies, torn and open psyches. You know, we are drawn. And I do want to kind of give people, you know, I know some of this would be distressing to hear about as well. Some people are more sensitive to these issues than others. Absolutely. But many of us simply, men and women are drawn to spectacle. And so I don't think we can ignore that part ourselves.

But women in particular, I do think are drawn to these stories because we feel that it gives us some sort of control over our own safety. And as we learn about Beverly L.C. and Margo, these are the women that are investigating the crimes of the serial killer within your book. What is it that you want people to take away? I would love people to come away with more an open mind about women who are adjacent to violent crime. You know, there is a serial killer in the news at the moment, Rex Heerman.

His wife has appeared in court not to support him, not to say that she doesn't think he's guilty, but because she needs to hear him say what he did. But even so, when she left the courtroom, she gave a statement about wanting the focus to be on the victims of his crimes. But a reporter still stepped forward and said, but how could you not have known what he was doing? You know, I want people to be entertained by this story. I want it to be, I hope that it's a good crime story and a pacey thriller. But I do hope it opens people's minds as to how women are very often blamed for the violent actions of men. Elizabeth Arnott, the Secret Lives of Murderer's Wives, is out now.

Thank you so much for joining us on Women's Hour. Thank you. We're going to go to a little bit of comedy next. The Scottish comedian, Susie McCabe, is a stalwart off the BBC comedy scene. You might know her from the news quiz, breaking the news to just a minute. Have I got news for you? It was in 2024 while touring that she had a heart attack. And she was only in her mid-40s at the time.

And it made her take a long, hard look at her life, but also inspired, I should say, her latest show, best behavior. I'm delighted to say she joins me now. Maybe on her best behavior, are you in the Women's Air Studio? Never. there's no fun in being in your best behaviour. What's the point, right? Good to have you with the Susie. You're very welcome.

Okay, tell me this story about having a heart attack. So I was in Bristol. I was preparing for the Edinburgh Fringe because, you know, when you're preparing for the Edinburgh Fringe, you come down to the south of England because nothing will prepare you more in Edinburgh. Okay, we could explore that for a while, but continue. And I was in Bristol.

My brother, who lives within an hour of Bristol, had came down to see me, we'd done the gig, we were at breakfast the next morning, he had said, oh, you've got a damaged tyre, and all in all, I could feel this tightness in my chest, which I genuinely thought was heartburn. Now, a heart attack presents different than a woman. Yes, I've heard this.

Yeah, and I was getting a kind of sharp pain in my neck, but you know it's that thing where you're sleeping in different hotels every night, you're just getting uncomfortable, yep. Didn't think anything of it. And then by the time we got to the car garage and I said to my brother, I think I'm having a heart attack to which he went, you've always been a bit of a hypochondriac. And then we subsequently phoned an ambulance

and God bless the two middle-aged paramedics who came and literally done ECGs. And I was sent to the Bristol Western Infirmary in the Bristol Heart Institute where I was I mean honestly I heard Viteroy Streeting earlier but we do have a go

at the NHS but what I mean it's one of the greatest institutions that we have and they saved my life I mean literally three hours later I had an angioplast in my heart

and I was sat in a bed Yeah health secretary with treating that you're referring to there How did it feel? I think it might be actually useful I'm just thinking as I'm speaking to you You talked about that tightness in your chest

and a pain neck going into your shoulder. Was it that just intensified that you taught yourself this is a heart attack? I thought this is, I'm actually now breathless. And then the pins and needles were the last thing that I thought. Down your arm? That's it. Pins and needles down the arm into the fingertips. And that was the thing that kind of sparked it.

However, this is a very serious situation that was taking place. But you did decide maybe there's some new material in this. And before I get to that, I should say, if anybody does. does have concerns, contact your GP, of course, for any of those questions you might have that we're raising at the moment. What happened? You're in the ambulance, you have these two lovely paramedics and you decide to start trying out material on them? Not quite, not quite. But the paramedics had asked if my brother was my next to kin and I was like, do not. He didn't even listen to me when I said I had a pain. He thought it was heartburn because

I've had fruit this morning. No, I remember. I remember texting my agent and I said, I don't think I'm going to make tonight's gig. And he went, why not? And I sent him the picture of the back of the ambulance. I went, suspected heart attack, I said. And then I just wrote underneath it, we're going to have some show next year, though.

Well, you mentioned fruit there. And I'm just thinking of one of your stand-ups when you say, growing up in Scotland and I grew up in Ireland. Fruit was either ornamental or in a tin. Yes. Yes, there was nothing you try. about it. I like the syrup

it came in personally. Either way, your teeth were always going to be destroyed. But no, and I remember thinking

we're going to have some show next year and it is that thing, isn't it? Well, you know, tragedy plus time gives us comedy. You know,

it's a very simple equation and fortunately I'm still here to tell the story. I'm very glad to hear it. You have best behavior which we talked about in one sense.

That's why. one show. Also, I love this coming of rage. Yes. So, more issues there that are serious, you know, living life and going through what we go through in our 40s or 50s. So six months after my heart attack, my marriage ended. And then seven months

after that, which would have been 11 months after the heart attack, I lost my dad. I'm so sorry. And then, you know, just the general kind of state of the world. and I'm 46 and I've got all of that good on where my internal body temperature would literally melt an ice cap. So I thought I am going to do a show about this and what you're talking about there,

you know, especially with the marriage separation, I was talking and moving in with my best friend and her wife and, you know, living with a happy couple and you're going through heartbreak and then, you know, losing your dad. And your dad dying's not the funny thing here, but the minutiae around about, death and you know I was brought up

a Catholic and we weren't particularly militant about that but you know when the hour comes it's and all the bells and all the smells type funeral and then everything that goes with that and the arranging of it and

did it help? Oh yeah absolutely that kind of that what would we call a ritual yeah yeah that I mean that that certainly helped and that kind of ritual that comes within that kind of period of death of the service and then the crematorium

but also the fact that you're dealing with a priest you know as a middle age menopausal gay women then having to deal with a priest there's a clash there and there was always going to be a clash and you know you've got to look at the humour in it you've got to look at the humour

of you organising one of the worst events that you could possibly ever organise but to the priest it's just another day in another funeral you know and he's very, not blasé about it, but it's very much his life. Routine. Yeah, that's it.

And I think you've got to find the ridiculousness in that. And do you know, there's so much of that bit that my dad would have loved, you know. And then I go in and I talk about the baby boomers and I talk about the Gen Z and how maybe Gen Z need to lower their expectation of the world because they've grown up in a very child-centric world. So, into it. You're the second person, I'd say, in the past week that has said that, actually. Yeah, very child-centric.

Say what you like about baby-bomers. I feel like I need to stick up for Gen Z. Listen, no, and I do stick up for them. And I do, and this will actually stick up for them. And I do point out to the baby boomers, you know, your grandchildren have paid more for their teeth than you did a three-bedroom semi-detached. And that's the reality of that. And when the baby boomers complain about the state of the world,

I do kind of hold up and go, well, who elected these people who bought the shares of these utilities who enjoyed the benefits of the house and market that your grandkids can no longer enjoy. So I do stick up for them but say what you like about

the baby boomers but they kept my generation's feet well and truly on the ground. A couple of things that I want to let our listeners know. You won the Billy Connolly Spirit of Glasgow Award in 2024. How amazing. Congratulations on that. Do you know what that was genuinely one of the most surreal and amazing moments of my life. My name was announced by Elaine C. Smith, who is an absolute national treasure in Scotland.

And the inaugural winner of that prize was the late Janie Godley. Oh. And Janie handed the award to me, which was a real moment because Janie, you know, would always give me advice and such like. And then they spun me round to look at a screen. And there was Billy Conley with his wee dog on his lap. and he said my own joke my own joke back to me and you know the joke was

I've very much got a face that works in three places in the world Glasgow Belfast and Benadorn and he actually said I laughed out loud when you said Benadorn and at that moment there was a thing where you thought it doesn't really matter what a reviewer says

or a critic says because that man the man who invented model day stand-up comedy said he laughed at one of my joke. I love his book so much. I read wind-swept and interesting. And it's something I aspire to. To be wind-swept and interesting. I believe you celebrated with a tattoo of what?

I did. So on the award is the Billy Conley self-portrait of himself, which is a kind of line. Yeah, a little sketch. And I got that out there just to remind me. Here's something. I just heard in the news bulletin this morning. And U. Tartan has been unveiled to mark the U.

UK Brazil season of culture and Scotland are playing Brazil in the upcoming men's football world cup. What about that? A Brazilian tartan? Listen, if they want to give us their football players, they can have our tartan. That's what I say. If they want to give us their music, they can have our tartan.

100% knock yourself out, Brazil. So today, I've only got a minute for this, we have to have you back. During an evidence session of the Women's and Equality's Committee at the House of Commons, MPs are going to hear from comedians about their experiences of being women in live comedy. The barriers efface, the gender pay gap, women's safety. What would be your elevator pitch in 30 seconds on what they need to know?

It's everything that every woman has ever had to suffer in the workplace, but the problem is we are freelance and we don't have HR. And also the snobbery within the arts, not acknowledging stand-up comedy as an art and seeing it as karaoke for the spoken word. Wow. So, but what makes you keep going? It is the greatest job in the world. And as long as I can keep making people laugh

and they can keep coming to me for a laugh, let's just keep doing this dance for as long as possible because the world needs a laugh right now. Well, I need to let people know. That best behaviour is running until the 23rd of May. In Brighton tonight at Media, still tickets available. coming of rage, Edinburgh, Festival Fringe in August, fabulous stuff. Enjoy it all. Thank you so much for joining us.

Tomorrow, Katrina O'Sullivan, discussing her new book, Hungary, a biography of my body. That is going to be a great listen. Do join us on Women's Hour. Thanks for your company today. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Join us again next time. I told my dad stop immediately. This is a scam. Scam secrets with me, Shari Valle. He had actually paid £209,000. To the scammers. Each week, we expose a different scam in detail to help you spot the red flags. I'll say things like, I carried on with it and I got great returns.

With special insights from experts, including criminologists, and a former scammer who now works to help prevent fraud. When it's successful, it completely wipes people out. Scam Secrets from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.