Woman's Hour - Wes Streeting, Virginia Giuffre memoir, Pacific Ocean rowers

Episode Date: October 23, 2025

Secretary of State for Health and Social Care Wes Streeting joins Anita Rani to announce new government policy on women’s health. Anita speaks to Amy Wallace, the writer and journalist who worked with Virginia Giuffre on her posthumously published memoir Nobody’s Girl. After two years of conversations, emails and extensive fact-checking, the book lays bare the life-wrecking impact of power, corruption and industrial-scale sex abuse, but it is also the story of how a young woman survived and became an advocate for sex trafficking survivors and continued to work toward justice.The Government have announced that the SEND White Paper expected this autumn is delayed until next year. BBC Education reporter Kate McGough joins Anita to tell us more.After 165 days at sea, two British women have just made history becoming the first pair to row non-stop and unsupported across the Pacific Ocean, from South America to Australia. Jess Rowe, 28, and Miriam Payne, 25, set off from Lima in May and arrived in Cairns in Australia on Saturday, completing more than 8,000 miles in their nine-metre boat, Velocity. Along the way they faced storms, broken equipment, and even navigated by the stars when their systems failed - they join Anita to talk about the highs and lows of their Pacific adventure.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Corinna Jones

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stole myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight.

It's like he's trying to date you all of a sudden. Yeah. And I do look like. my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. While you're here, I wanted to let you know about the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, your toolkit for the juggle, the struggle and everything in between. Life is complicated and often incredibly busy. So whether you're fixing a problem at one of life's crossroads or just looking to shake things up

bit, this is the guide you'll need to help you survive and even thrive. Each episode brings together world-class experts with women sharing their honest, powerful stories, offering real insight and also practical tips that really work. From work and career to relationships and family issues, the focus is on helping you grow, also adapt and overcome life's curve walls. It's your companion, your life coach, it's your Woman's Hour Guide to Life. Join us only on BBC Sounds, but now back to today's Woman's Hour. Good morning, welcome to the program. The Secretary for Health and Social Care, West Treating, will be here to announce an update on the government's health strategy for women. Amy Wallace co-authored Virginia Jeffre's memoir, Nobody's Girl,

and we'll be talking to us about her raw, shocking and deeply disturbing story. And two British women have just made history becoming the first all-female team and the youngest ever pair to row non-stop and unsupported across the Pacific Ocean, 165 days at sea. Just the two of them. What a challenge, what test of endurance and friendship. They put their success in part down to being great teammates. So what has a friendship enabled you to do? Has being with a buddy helped you take on a challenge, get you out of your comfort, zone or made you realize what you're capable of. We would love to hear your stories. So get in touch in the usual way. Text the program, it's 84844-contactors via email by going to our website. And if you'd

like to WhatsApp the program, it's 0700-100-444. The text number once again, 84844. But first, the Secretary for Health and Social Care has announced that all over 40s health checks in England will include questions on the menopause for the first time. West Streeting joined me in the Woman's Hour studio before coming on air this morning. West Streeting, welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. You've come to talk about menopause and also the women's health strategy, very important to our listeners. We're going to come on to those shortly, but can I ask you first about an urgent matter for the government, the grooming gangs inquiry? Now, four women have now resigned from the Survivor's panel of the inquiry over concerns it's being diluted, one of whom Ellie Reynolds spoke to us here on Women's

hour on Tuesday. Other survivors are choosing to stay. It's thought there were a couple of dozen appointed in total. Those four survivors who've left have now called for safeguarding Minister Jess Phillips to resign, accusing her of betrayal, citing her response to their concerns about the inquiry scope. They said that she and candidates to chair the inquiry were unfit for their roles. So who's right? Well, first of all, I'd just say in regards to the for women who've stepped down from the inquiry, the concerns they're raising and in particular the views they've expressed about how the inquiry should run and who should lead it should be taken seriously and are being taken seriously. I think in relation to Jess Phillips, and I can

only speak from personal experience, having known Jess for over 10 years now, there is no one in Parliament who has done more to tackle violence against women and girls than Jess in Parliament. And there is no one better who could be in that job than Jess. So should Jess Phillips resign? No, I don't think she should. I don't think she should. I'm not dismissing what her critics are saying and the criticisms they have of the type of candidates that have been put forward, we do take those things seriously. But there is no one better for that job than Jess Phillips and no one more committed to these issues in Parliament than Jess Phillips. You've announced today that questions about the menopause will become part of over 40 health

checks at GPs. Some people will be shocked to hear. It hasn't been included till now. Not me. Whereas I went for my own GP health check only a month ago and I was surprised that I wasn't asked anything about the menopause being a woman who's 47. So what exactly? will women be asked in these checks? So this is great news. And one in ten women, only one in ten women, say that they receive

any sort of advice about menopause, even though this is a universal experience and a natural stage of life for all women. And given that we know that a quarter of women will experience really severe symptoms and three quarters of women overall will accept.

experience a range of symptoms associated with menopause. It's really important they get this advice. So this means that now when you go for your 40 plus health check, as well as being asked the range of questions about cardiovascular disease and other things we're trying to prevent, women will now be asked about their experience of menopause. We're working with experts to define the precise questions, but we've listened to what campaigners have said, particularly menopause mandates, well-being of women, a whole bunch of campaigners. And I think this is A really great example, actually, for the cynicism there is about politics, of a really strong campaign and then politicians listening and change happening because of that campaign. Will it just be questions or will women be offered blood tests?

Well, we're getting clinical advice on this. It would certainly involve questions, but it also does need to involve appropriate follow-up. What I don't want to see happen is for women to go along, be asked questions about menopause. describe symptoms consistent with menopause, and then for a box to be ticked and nothing to change. So we don't know for sure what will happen when we go for these health checks? Yeah, so the announcement today is that we've listened to the campaigners. It will definitely be in the 40 plus health check, but we're now going to get clinical advice on exactly what those questions are, and that work is beginning at pace, so it can be introduced in 2026.

Does it concern you that under half of those eligible to attend these health checks now don't attend them? How will you reach those who need it the most, particularly women from different ethnic minorities and the poorest communities? It does concern me. And in fact, one of the things that we're focusing a lot on as a government is on health inequalities. So we are going to attack this problem hard. I think that there are, if I'm perfectly honest, this is not a panacea. there are still some shortcomings. You're right that take up of the health check isn't universal.

There will be women with cardiovascular disease who don't automatically go for 40 plus health checks already being seen. It's only 46%. So we're mindful of that. But I don't think we should let perfect be the enemy of good. And this is just one of many things I think we're going to need to do to both raise awareness, improve access to advice and treatment, all the while we are.

more broadly trying to deal with what are still shocking inequalities in healthcare provision for women. Just sticking with the menopoles for a minute, earlier this week on Women's Hour, we heard that millions of women are being exploited by so-called menopause gold rush. Women's Health academics at the University College London

are calling for an education programme to combat misinformation and unregulated advice on the menopause. Will you undertake to do this? Yeah, I've listened back ahead of kind of coming on today. And I think this is a really serious problem and it underscores why the NHS needs to raise its game, not just in terms of the health check announcement we're making today, but through the development of the NHS app and through the provision of our online resources, we've got to make sure that the NHS is the gold standard of health information.

And when women are having conversations with their GPs, for example, that they can can be signposted to effective sources of support and not just the sort of stuff we might be bombarded with on social media platforms. Now, you're also here to announce an update to the women's health strategy for England. Tell us what's changing. So I think first and foremost, with this government, we recognise that too often women's health and common conditions that affect women, we talked about menopause, but things like polycysticose.

ovary syndrome and endometriosis are still being treated as if they're rare conditions affecting an alien species rather than common conditions that affect the majority of the population. Now, to be fair to our predecessors, they had a women's health strategy that was produced by Dame Leslie Regan, who they appointed as women's health ambassador, and actually, I think, is a very good strategy. What we now want to do and what we're asking Dame Leslie to do is to look at the progress that was made by our predecessors, look at the shortcomings and look at where we need to go further and to renew the strategy. So Leslie's going to beginning that work and completing at the tail end of this year so that we can launch a renewed women's health strategy in the new

year. And what I want to see out of it is to deal with some of the stark health inequalities that affect women and to make sure that wherever women are accessing health care, that they're receiving appropriate healthcare. I mean, I've had examples in my own family where women in my family have gone to see a GP in actually extraordinary amounts of pain, repeatedly denied pain relief. And in one case, it was only when a member of my family

took her male partner who said, look, she's in pain, she needs pain relief that the male doctor prescribed. And I'm afraid that is not an uncommon story. So we've got to end medical misogyny. and that's what the approach will be. Let's dig a bit deeper into some of these inequalities because according to their health think tank,

the King's Funds, the existing women's health strategy identified inequalities, including ethnic inequalities in women's health. It didn't address the specific health needs of women from different ethnic minority groups and the additional challenges they face, for example, due to higher levels of deprivation, language, racism, discrimination.

Yeah, that's right. One in four women in England is now from an ethnic minority group. So how are you going to address their specific health needs in this new refreshed strategy? Well, first and foremost, by involving them in the shaping of the strategy. And just yesterday, I saw Leslie in Parliament with well-being of women campaigners who were describing firsthand the health inequalities that they've experienced as women from black and Asian communities. And I mean, I've seen. this reflected just in terms of some of the conversations I've had as well on maternity,

which has obviously been a huge issue. We know that there is a significant maternal mortality gap of black and Asian women being two to three times more likely to die in childbirth than white women. What I also hear, this is shocking, shocking statistics. Absolutely shocking. And by the way, the people might listening might think, well, oh, hang on a minute, it was five times more, wasn't it? So has that improved. Well, the gap has narrowed, but only because more white women are dying in childbirth, that is not the way to close health inequalities. We're going to keep a sharp focus on those health inequalities

so that we are holding ourselves to account for improving experiences for all women, not just women whose skin colours are same as mine. Let's talk a little bit more about failing maternity services. Because here on the programme, we had two grieving mothers on this week, Lauren Colfield and Amarjit Korn Matharu, whose daughters were both still born after failings in care at Leeds teaching hospitals.

I mean, you'll know this that earlier this year, a BBC investigation revealed that the deaths of at least 56 babies and two mothers at Leeds over the past five years might have been avoided. In announcing a maternity independent inquiry into Leeds Trust on Monday, you said you want to end the normalisation

of deaths of women and babies in maternity units. When is soon enough? Well, I don't think there is such a thing. thing as soon enough and that's why I asked Baroness Amos, Valerie Amos to lead a rapid investigation into the state of maternity services right across England

because while there have been calls for some individual inquiries as in the case of Leeds or and there are a main cause for a national public inquiry I feel this enormous pressure on my shoulders to make sure that I'm doing everything I can as fast as I can

to improve the quality of maternity services and Valerie Amos is that hugely experienced and respected leader, both in government, diplomacy and in higher education. And Valerie is also, in terms of her whole career, being dedicated to tackling inequalities. So going back to our points about race inequalities, for example, Valerie is highly attuned to those issues. So her work is underway. We've also got the Leeds inquiry up and running because I was persuaded by families and by the data, including Lauren and Amadjit, who I've had the privilege of meeting on more than one occasion, that that trust

is such an outlier and it's one of the largest trusts in Europe that we had to look specifically at failures there. So we're going as quickly as we can. There is improvements taking place every day and I don't want women listening this morning, particularly those who are pregnant and thinking ahead to labour, to be afraid. 10,000 babies are born every week in this country and the vast majority are delivered safely without any problems. But I want to end this culture where we accept infant mortality in a way that other advanced economies and health systems simply do not do. Will Donna Ockenden be the person to lead the inquiry at Leeds? No, she won't be leading the Leeds inquiry, not least because she's leading the work at Nottingham and Shrewsbury and Helford.

And if I could clone her, I would. But the challenge I've got, and it's not just in Leeds, but in other parts of the country, because Donna has earned the trust of the families that she's working with, everyone wants Donna. And I understand that, and I have huge respect for her. But I've got to make sure that we're firstly protecting the work that Donna's already doing. but I've also got to build a wider team of people too who can support the government and support the NHS when trouble arises. So who will it be?

We're drawing up a potential list. I listened to families in Leeds last week about the sort of person they would want and I think I should just be clear for transparency. They also wanted Donna too. They said Donna on the bus, didn't they? They did. So I'm looking at

the characteristics they described looking at putting together a potential list of names and then crucially working with the families and consulting them. So Julian Hartley, the man in charge of Leeds Trust for 10 years until 2023, is now in charge of the healthcare regulator in England, the Care Quality Commission. I believe you've met Lauren Caulfield,

whose daughter Grace died in 2020. She told the BBC it's completely unacceptable that nothing has been done to date to look into the situation with Sir Julian Hartley. We hope the inquiry will do that. He's essentially being promoted. What's your response to that? Well, the inquiry into Leeds will absolutely look at leadership and governance

as well as other issues, and it is important that that work proceeds without fear or favour. Julian Hartley is the chief executive of the CQC, but whether leaders are still imposed or moved on, whether they are working in other parts of the health and care system, it's important that we act without fear or favour and that we follow the evidence. So his head might roll?

Well, I think it would be premature for me to make judgments or cast aspersions on individuals at this stage. I don't want scapegoats. I'm not interested in scapegoating people. But where there are individuals at fault, we do need to take action and there do need to be consequences. That doesn't necessarily always mean people are fired. It does mean that you need a culture that first and foremost is honest, that learns from mistakes, that trains people appropriately. But where there have been serious failings and people have not discharged their duties through negligence or irresponsibility, there does need to be accountability.

Well, in a statement, Sir Julian told the BBC that while he was Chief Executive of Leeds Trust, he was absolutely committed to ensuring good patient care across all services, including maternity, but clearly this commitment wasn't enough to prevent some families suffering pain and loss. And he said he was truly sorry for this. When it comes to women's health, whereas don't we know what needs to be done by now, essentially listen to women, plow in more resources and change the culture. I think that's a really good summary. And actually, so much of that is in the women's health strategy that Leslie Regan produced

and is being rolled out. I mean, we've already seen in women's health hubs, for example, some really good, great results. I want to see those continue to roll out and expand across the country. But it's that final point you mentioned, I think, on culture.

In terms of the leadership challenge I have as health and social care secretary, that's probably the hardest nut for me to crack. Resources, where we've got 26 billion pounds more going in. It doesn't solve everything, but it's a good start. Systems,

reforms, levers. Those are, in some ways, doesn't always feel easy, but those are the easier things. Culture is the hard thing. And I do have some quiet confidence that not just among ministers, but among NHS leaders and clinicians across the country, there is a recognition that the culture needs to change. And I'm relieved at that because I can't do it on my own. And the pressure that's brought to bear on us is really important. And that's why I'm absolutely committed to championing patient voice, patient power, because although we put our lives in the hands of doctors and clinicians

because of their training and expertise, we are experts ourselves as patients and our voices need to be heard. On that, we have lots of voices listening to us on the radio. So will you come back and answer some of our listeners' questions in life with me? I'd love to. Because it's incredibly important. And women's health, as you know, is a big topic here on Women's Hour. I'm in.

Great. That's good. And final question. I'm going to be speaking to the co-author of Virginia Jafre's posthumous memoir shortly. Is there anything you want to say on behalf of the government this morning about Jafre's exploitation at the hands of powerful men, including, according to her, Prince Andrew, something he's always denied? Of the many, many shocking things that we've read from her testimony, I think the most, in some ways the most distressing and painful is that we're reading her words in death after she's died

and I think it is just so shameful actually that she's not here to tell her story live in her own words and also here to see those powerful men being held to account for what they did. Will they be held to account? They have to be.

And it doesn't matter whether you are a prince or a pauper. There needs to be accountability. Health Secretary Wes Streeting. And I look forward to having him back on the programme to answer your questions. Lots of you getting in touch. Saying the same thing, I'm going to read out a few of your messages. Kerry in Bristol says I'm 42,

and this is the first time I've ever heard of the over 40s health check. Another one here saying 40 plus health check. Do they happen in Wales? I'm 46 and haven't had an invite to one. nor any of my female friends. And another message saying, over 40s health check, never heard of it.

I was texted inviting me for an over 60s check, but when I tried to book through the link, there were no appointments available, my GP surgery knew nothing about it, and my local health authority that sent me the text never answered the phone. Well, if you're aged 40 to 74 and do not have a pre-existing health condition,

you should be invited to an NHS health check by your GP or local council every five years. So we would suggest that you get in touch with them. 84844 is the text number. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender,

but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stood myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of a sudden. Yeah. And I do look like my mother. Love me.

Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Now, Virginia Roberts, Jeffray, is a name people will be very familiar with us, one of the most prominent and vocal accusers of child sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and an advocate of justice for survivors of sex trafficking. Many might feel they know the details of. Virginia Geoffrey's story and the various powerful men alleged to have participated in her exploitation. But in her posthumous memoir published this week, it's the abuse she experienced that's described in detail. That detail has caused a further media storm this week with

Ms. Jafray writing she had sex with Prince Andrew on three separate occasions, including once with Epstein and approximately eight other young women, something the prince has always denied. Amy Wallace is a writer and journalist who co-authored Nobody's Girl working with Virginia over a four-year period and joins us now. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Amy. Thank you so much for having me. My response to the memoir is that it's shocking, it's raw, it's deeply disturbing, it's incredibly tragic. And I know I'm not alone in that. And what intensifies those feelings whilst you're reading that you can't shake off? And quite rightly, is that this woman, Virginia Jafray or Jenna, she preferred to be called, took her own life only six months ago. Why did she want to publish a memoir? Well, when she came to me four years ago, almost four and a half, she said that her main motivation for writing this book was to help other survivors of sexual abuse, not just Gillen, Maxwell and Epstein survivors.

but all survivors, male and female, anyone who had been coerced into a sexual situation that they didn't want to be in. And that really affected the way we wrote the book. A lot of the most salacious details have obviously been focused on, and rightly so, in the past several days, as the book has been published. But this book is really a portrait of a woman in full. It starts chronologically, shows you the child she was that probably gives us a lot of insight. into how much resilience she would have throughout her life, even despite her tragic passing. It takes you through what she experienced in the early parts of her life and abuse at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein and Gillen Maxwell both, and we can talk about that.

But also, escaping from them, which was very difficult, becoming a mom, falling in love and becoming a mom. And in some ways, that's one of her greatest triumphs, is that she actually, claimed joy in her life and was able to trust and love again. And then becoming an advocate, not just for herself, not just for Epstein and Maxwell victims, but for all of us, for our children. Because this book shows you the pedophiles playbook how girls are lured, deceived into these worlds and what is done to them to make them stay. So for any parent out there, and I'm a parent, You know, this is required reading in terms of understanding.

How does this happen? We will cover a lot of what you've just mentioned there, but it's quite important that we focus on the woman at the heart of this story. As you say, this incredibly resilient woman, but it was, she opted not to stay silent. Tell us the importance of her having her third child, her daughter, in that decision. Yeah, you know, she'd been told as a young woman that she probably couldn't have children. She had, she believed she had an ectopic pregnancy, although that was confused by the way Epstein took her to the hospital, lied about her age.

And she didn't have a lot of medical information related to your previous report. She didn't have a lot of medical information about her own body. But she was able to have children, it turned out, and it was one of the biggest joys of her life. So she has two sons back to back, and then her third child is a daughter. And when her daughter is born, her perspective shifts. She's been living a kind of, she's been living a wonderful life for about five years in Australia. She has escaped from Epstein and Maxwell. She has a new last name.

People don't know who she is. She can just not be that other person, although she still has the terrible nightmares at night about what was done. to her. She's living a kind of idyllic life. But then she has a daughter and she realizes, I have a child who is female. That person is going to grow up and move into this world at some point. And I need to stand up and make the world a better place for her because it could happen to her just as it happened to me. So at that point, her activism is born. And first, you know, she starts to try to hold her own abusers to account, which she was doing for the rest of her life,

and we're trying to still do now, publication of the book. But that's where it begins, and it's all because of being a mother and a protective one. It was really interesting reading it. I wasn't quite prepared for the underlying anxiety provoked by reading the description of Virginia's first meeting with Galeim Maxwell just before she was 17,

because we know the story. what's coming. So I don't know how I thought it happened, but it was such an ordinary random meeting. And then the most immediate start to the abuse by breaking her down. How did they do that? Well, this is real insight into, again, procuring in general, but Gillen Maxwell was very good at it. And part of what she did was, well, in this case, she walked up to Virginia, who was working at Mar-a-Lago, which is the club in Florida that Donald Trump, our president, owns. She was a $9 an hour towel girl, but she was sitting, as it happened, at the front desk, reading a book about anatomy. She had just started working at the spa weeks before,

and she loved it there. It was gorgeous and clean, and people came out feeling wonderful, and she thought, maybe there's a career for me here. She's 16 years old at that point. So she's reading a book that she took out of the library about anatomy, and this posh, beautiful woman walks up to her. I think what Virginia writes is her handbag costs more than my dad's truck. So there was clearly a class imbalance here and immediately engages her. Oh, my goodness, you know, you're reading a book about anatomy? Are you a masseuse? And this 16-year-old girl says, no, I would not.

I'm not a masseuse. I would love to learn someday. Oh, I could help you with that. I know a wonderful, wealthy man. He would love to have you trained. Come today. Come after work. Please, let me give you my phone number. All gentility, all kindness, and all class. She was classy. And trustworthy and playing on her gender, obviously. This point has been made a thousand times. This is how you lure a girl in. A girl is not going to go. If a 57-year-old man walked up to her. at her work and said, hey, come over to my house later. I want you to give me a massage. That girl doesn't go. But when Gillesne Maxwell walks up to you, you trust. And in fact, when she got to the house later, Geline was there, led her upstairs, was in the room, in the massage room

when they walked in. There's a naked man, lying on face down, lying on the massage table. Virginia had never had a massage. She thought, well, that's weird that he's totally naked, but I'm trying to be sophisticated like all these people around me, all these wealthy people. They're sophisticated.

I'm not, I'm going to just try to play along. And Gillesne Maxwell shows her how to rub him down and then he flips over, naked, and then they both sexually abuse her. Which is an important point. There's gotten, the narrative on Gulen

has kind of somehow morphed a little bit over despite the fact that she's been convicted of terrible things of being a part of the sexual trafficking scheme. This is a woman who sexually abused girls herself. She was not a receptionist. She was not just somebody who kept the date book on what other girls were coming in. She was very active in the sex abuse herself. Virginia says the worst things they did was psychological, more than physical, which when you read the detail of how badly abuse she was, it's hard to imagine. So what did she mean by that?

Well, I think she really tries to paint a portrait, and I think it's well done, about the psychological mind game. I called it yesterday in an interview, the sort of mental jujitsu of how predators treat their victims. So on the one hand, how do they keep these girls in the fold? There are threats. They were constantly being threatened.

And Virginia herself was threatened personally by Epstein. He showed her a photograph of her beloved little brother, Sky, who was five years younger, who was 11 at that time. And the photograph was taken with his backpack on at his school. And Epstein says, we know where he goes to school. And if you ever turn on us, if you ever expose us, we will hurt him. So that's an obvious way of keeping them in the full. but the more complex way is that even amidst the degradation that both Maxwell and Epstein were putting these girls through, they were also telling some of them, the ones that they wanted

to keep around, like Virginia, we see something in you. You're special. You have potential. And a lot of them, and Virginia included, had not had that kind of validation before or not enough. And so when she admits, or if that's the right word for it, she describes that that's what kept her coming back or traveling with them on the plains to Paris and Morocco and New Mexico where the ranch was and to the private islands, that's what kept her in mesh because she hadn't had enough of that voice in her head

of people saying, you matter. Because people will be wondering, why didn't she leave? They often ask this question of a lot of, women in these terribly abusive situations. Why don't you just walk out? But she says in the book that they solidified their power by offering me a new sort of family, told her she was the number one girl and made her feel proud. Exactly. And, you know, this question of why don't they just leave? And it's a reasonable one if you have had the privilege of never being anywhere in your trauma, which frankly, there are a lot of people who have.

Virginia's life up to the point of meeting Jeffrey Epstein and Gillen Maxwell had abuse in it already. And when you have already been traumatized and what the lesson that you've been learned, you've been taught by your experience is that adult men can have sex with underage girls and never pay a price for it, you start to believe, for good reason, that you live in a world that works that way. So you don't think, oh, if I could just escape the Manhattan townhouse and run out into the street screaming, the world will welcome me with open arms and say, that was terrible what happened to you. You believe the world works that way. And I would argue

she may not be wrong about that. So this idea that somehow you would just raise your hand and a bunch of people would come rushing in to help you, that hadn't been her experience. So the question then becomes how do I work within this awful world and survive and then she talks about that she was recruiting girls for him targeting those that were hungry and poor she does say that it was the worst thing she'd ever done in her life yeah she really it was important to her that we well it was important to her that we put in everything about her she wanted it to be warts and all but this was a particularly important thing she It was part of the pyramid scheme that they were working.

They forced girls to procure. Partly that was because, as Gillen particularly said to her many times, you are getting too old for this. She was 16, 17, 18. You're aging out. You're not going to be attractive anymore. So you're going to have to learn how to procure. And there was a particular young woman who was within the,

the circle at that time when Virginia was there, who she knew had been a sexual victim of Epstein and Maxwell, but had aged out. Her full-time job was to procure. And so Virginia saw that was going to be her future if she stayed in that world, but wasn't quite sure how to get out. But yes, it was the worst thing Virginia had ever done. She was full of shame for it the entire time, her entire life. She talked to me about it openly. But again, how do they keep them? Because they make them complicit. Then they are part of the scheme. And then they're just, you know, these are young girls. They're thinking, I'm no better than they are. How can I, it's a shame, it's again, an erosion of their own self-worth, not just through the sexual abuse, but through

making them do things that make them feel awful about themselves for the rest of their lives. So where else can they go? Like she says herself that she was trapped in this, was it a cage, a golden cage? I think it was only last October you saw her for the last time. How was she? Yeah, I went, I'd been to Australia. That was my second time. I wanted to see her in her full life. wanted to see her with her kids, you know, singing songs in the car as they drove along. There are scenes in the book showing you her sort of more cozy life. And I went in October because we had a finished manuscript and I wanted to read it over one word at a time, one more time, with her side by side. You know, a lot of our work was like this on Zoom because I lived in California and she lived in Australia.

she was still really suffering from some physical injuries we talk about in the book she broke her neck at one point because she got meningitis was in the hospital and they let her get up to go to the restroom on her own without support and she fell in the restroom and broke her neck it was incredibly painful still and she was still dealing with that she'd had some surgeries So she constantly wore kind of a big rubber, you know, bolster on her neck. But I wasn't sure how she was going to be when I got there, but I wanted to make sure that she wanted still to publish the book, that she felt good about it, that she felt she could stand behind it.

And so we read it over, and we spent basically several days at her home, her outside of Perth where she ultimately died. basically a very pretty humble ranch, but had animals, and she loved animals so much. That was her kind of peaceful place. So she was excited about the book publication. She was rallying. And I guess I should also say one thing she was was really excited about the presidential election in the United States because it was about to happen. and the former president, Donald Trump, was running again, obviously,

and he was campaigning on a plank to release the Epstein files, as they're known in the United States. The Epstein files is a sort of catch-all phrase for all the investigations that have been done over the many, many years that victims, not just Virginia, brave victims have come forward and given their information to the FBI. So she was excited about that. Many British newspapers have picked up on Virginia, saying Prince Andrew felt sex with me was his birthright, an event he denies ever took place.

What did you mean by that? That he was entitled. You know, we describe the first, well, we describe all three of the alleged incidents with Prince Andrew that I obviously believe completely are true. And the first one, you know, this is a little girl. When she was a little girl, she watched the movie Cinderella on repeat. You know, meeting a prince was a big deal for her.

These were supposed to be the best of us, you know. And she and Gillesne went shopping, and they picked out outfits, and she was excited. And then on the way home from dinner and dancing at Tramp Night Club, she's told by Galen and Jeffrey do for him what you do for us and they go back and again she is sort of betrayed and humiliated

this hope that she's just going to meet somebody classy and upstanding is shattered and finally Amy Ely in the book you say she won't she says that she won't let the demons win

and she was remarkable in her strength and her fight for justice and to be heard but did the demons win out in the end well i don't think anyone one person can say why another person uh ends their own life um but but the book makes clear that she struggled with demons and she wanted that in there because she never wanted another victim of sexual abuse to feel shame that they hadn't just gotten over it you know you don't get over it it haunts you and you live with it for the rest of your life so so yes she she had things that she struggled with and she apparently couldn't continue. And it's a shame she should be

talking to you right now, not me. I'm a ghostwriter. I'm supposed to be invisible and behind the scenes, and that's the way I like it. But I'm proud to speak out on her behalf. This is an important book, not just about her, but about our culture. And there are things that we all need to be doing, men and women, victims and non-victims, to change that culture. Amy Wallace, thank you so much for joining me to speak to me this morning. And Nobody's Girl, a memoir of surviving abuse and fighting for justice by Virginia Roberts Jeffray, is available now. And if you've been in any way affected by what you've heard during this interview, you can go to the BBC Action Line, where you'll find links to support.

Now, in breaking news, I can tell you that Sir Julian Hartley is stepping down as chief executive of the Care Quality Commission with the media effect. As you heard during my interview with West Streeting, Sir Julian Hartley was previously the head of the Leeds Teaching Hospitals, NHS Trust for almost a decade and an independent inquiry into maternity care was announced on Monday. Dozens of families have come forward to say they were failed by the trust during his time in Leeds and have been calling for his resignation in a statement. Sir Julian said his post at the CQC had become incompatible with the important conversations happening about care at Leeds, including during the time. as chief executive there. I'm sorry for the fact that some families suffered harm and loss during this time. Now, the government has announced it's delaying reforms to the special educational needs and disabilities or send system and other policy proposals for schools in England until next year. It's originally planned to publish its school's white paper, which includes plans

for send this autumn. Organisations like disabled children's partnership have called the delay to the white paper deeply frustrating, but Education Secretary Bridget Philipson said there would be a further period of co-creation testing our proposals with the people who matter most in this reform. While to discuss this further, I'm joined by BBC Education reporter Kate McGoff. Morning, Kate. Why is this delay happening? That's right. Well, it was confirmed in a letter from the Education Secretary, Bridget Philipson, to the chair of the Education Select Committee yesterday. They said that they're launching a further period of listening and engagement, essentially. So what they want to do is meet more often with parents, teachers and experts.

And they say they want to take their time to deliver a form that stands the test of time, rebuilds confidence. They also said they know that families are crying out for change and it's critical that they get this right. It's worth bearing in mind there's already been about 100 listening sessions with families up to this point. So, you know, they have already been speaking to people and coming up with proposals. And we also, we know that this system is in crisis, you know, that there's been so much more. The National Audit Office said last year that the system was broken, that there's been more money being spent without improving outcomes for children. And we've got, you know, councils who are warning about massive six billion in deficits by March next year, if nothing changes.

And also families who are waiting a lot longer for support. So the government is kind of co-operative. between this pressure to contain those costs for councils and also just any anger that might be unleashed if they do decide to restrict access to support and change the system. So they're taking a bit more time, essentially. A new report out today from the Institute for Public Policy Research says there should be more comprehensive support in mainstream school

which young people can access more easily without a lengthy assessment process. Can you tell us a bit more about what they're saying? Yeah, sure. So this is a task force essentially that's being led by, I, a former teaching union boss, Jeff Barton, and lots of ex-education ministers and education experts, essentially. So they've looked at what's gone wrong with the census system

and also recommendations of how to fix it. You know, we've had a few of these, like from the Education Select Committee a few weeks ago. But this one essentially recommends that the government creates like a new layer of support in mainstream schools. They essentially want the government to beef up support that can be accessed without diagnosis, and without lengthy weights, essentially. So they want better, earlier intervention, which would be managed by the schools, they say.

So they want more funding for the schools to be able to do that. And they say that if, you know, children have more complex needs, that should stay with local authorities coming up with plans for them. They also want parents to keep this route to redress, which is the kind of thing they have already with EHPs. But they weren't really giving details of how to do that. I think that is a really tricky problem. to solve. And they also recommended, essentially they're saying, if support is better within

mainstream schools, there wouldn't be as much need for things like EHCPs. And they do think they should be replaced eventually, but they didn't really give details of how that would happen. They say that the system needs to be much improved before something like that would happen. Kate, I know we will be coming back to this again and again and again. But for now, Kate McGoff, thank you so much, BBC Education Reporter. And now, after 170. 65 days at sea. Two British women have just made history, becoming the first all-female team and

the youngest ever pair to row non-stop and unsupported across the Pacific Ocean from South America to Australia. Jess Row 28 and Miriam Payne 25 set off from Lima in May and arrived in Cairns in Australia on Saturday, completing more than

8,000 miles in their 9-meter boat velocity. Along the way they face storms, broken equipment and even navigated by the stars when their systems failed, but they also shared moments of awe rowing under starlit skies and encountering dolphins and whales. And they join me now to tell me more about their experience. Welcome. Congratulations, first of all, girls. What's it like to be back on dry land? Oh, it's really strange. It's quite overwhelming. We're finding at the moment, because our

life has been so regimented for six months, just even being in a supermarket and making a choice of what sandwich to buy is quite hard. Eating actual food and not rehydrate. rated food. I've got to ask you, why? What made you want to do? Well, we both, so we met when we were rowing across the Atlantic Ocean back in 2022 in the Talasco Whiskey Atlantic Challenge, which is now called the World's Toughest Row. It's a 3,000 mile rowing race from Lagomera in the Canary Islands to Antigua in the Caribbean. And we both just absolutely loved our time out there and decided why not, you know, try and row across the biggest ocean. And we thought it would be a perfect opportunity to raise money for the Outward Bound Trust, of which I think

we're over £100,000 now. But you both work full-time. So how did you juggle working, training, and also getting the time off? With great difficulty. I think we almost maybe got more sleep when we got on the ocean. So we were, yeah, working full-time, it was a huge juggle because it's an independent expedition. And we organised the whole thing ourselves. So there was a lot of late nights and a lot of early mornings. We were up to two in the morning, especially the last couple months before we flew to Peru, just sorting all the admin out and bits and pieces.

So, yeah, we've great difficulty. What was it like being stuck on a boat? You were there for five months, just the two of you. I mean, that is, you're taking a, I mean, it doesn't matter how much you like somebody. That is still a risk. Yeah, it was definitely a risk, but we were so lucky we didn't have a single argument.

We got on so well throughout. And, yeah, just had a large. every day and yeah it could have gone pretty badly wrong if we weren't getting on but yeah we're already excited to you know do some things together in the future okay well that's good okay so that's that's one tick that you got on for five months but particularly hairy moments i had to look at in my mind when i was reading about the two of you i thought how were they just in a tiny little canoe i mean it's not a huge boat that you're in but you're so exposed i mean weather what but tell us about some of the scariest moments that you had to encounter?

Yeah, so we actually, everybody's surprised, but we actually didn't have a time that we were scared at all. We got frustrated and, you know, we got really grumpy at times, but we were never scared, but we just felt like everything that could have gone wrong just about did go wrong. Like what? Well, on our first attempt, our rudder totally delaminated and we found out that was due to manufacturing error.

Then the same, it's looked like the same issue was starting with a spare rudder, so we couldn't fit that into the housing. We then tried to change our dagger into a rudder and snapped all our drill bits and blunted all those. So then we had to get rescued back to Peru by our good friend, Alec Hughes, that we've met there. Then on the second...

How frustrating was that? Yeah, I mean, so incredibly frustrating, but we're just so lucky that our friend, Alec, could come and rescue us and save the expedition, and our parents and everybody back home were so busy behind the scenes trying to organise spare rudders

to get sent out to Peru. And then on the second attempt, we were, I think, six days in and our, well, we started having major power issues and slowly had to start switching off all of our equipment. A lot of, most of the way really struggled to run essentials. We were hand-steering a lot of the time. It got a little bit better once we got closer to Australia with the thinner ozone layer. But on that same week, our watermaker pipes started bursting and we found out that they'd be fit with some sections would be fit with pipes that weren't rated for the pressure. meaning that they would continue bursting. And I think we made nine repairs in the end before somebody managed to figure out a bypass system for us.

And that took 100 days of just sort of like constantly waiting for it to go. And in that time, sometimes we had to use a hand pumping water maker, which is really not ideal. It only makes three litres an hour compared to the electric one, which makes 10. And it's actually harder work than rowing. And then on the first day we used that,

the filter broke off. Oh, my gosh. So we had to fix that with a pair of pants. Yeah, it just felt like everything was just going wrong all the time. That's the level of detail we want here on Women's Hour. You had to fix it with a pair of pants. My kind of women. So let's talk a bit more about the practicalities.

When did you sleep? What did you eat? And what did you do about, you know, just your period? So we were doing two hours on, two hours off. So we'd row for two hours. And then we'd rest or sort of fixed bits on the boat. wash ourselves, make food in the two hours off. But as we got closer to the middle of the crossing,

we were just rowing more and more every day. It's so hot in the cabin. It's like a sauna. It's absolutely horrible. And yeah, towards the end, we were actually just rowing all day together and then we do two hours on, two hours off just at night time. Food, we were eating,

well, we were supposed to try and eat about 5,000 calories a day, but we didn't quite manage it because we really struggled with the food. So we were eating dehydrated and free dried food so you just add water to it and it's got no texture to it whatsoever it just tastes like mush and then also we had snack packs so we had 1,500 calories of snacks every day so that was built on nuts dried fruit chocolate biscuits flapjacks we actually finished all of our snacks

quite a few weeks before finishing oh no yeah ran out of chocolate quite early on and then periods on the crossing very much the same as at home we had sustainable tampons that we used and our bucket is a loo so it's a bucket and chuck it situation um yeah um so what will you do next the two of you are you already planning it oh i think catch up on five and a half months of sleep deprivation quite right um yeah there's always going to be more adventures for us there'll always be something but um not too sure what's next yet well let us know as soon as you've decided but once again congratulations both of you jess row and miriam pain thank you uh and thanks to all of you who've been in touch with the program today.

Tomorrow, Tiggy Walker, the wife of the late Radio 2 DJ, Johnny Walker, on caring for her soulmate Johnny, who died at home on New Year's Eve in 2024. Also, the first mother in space, that's Anna Fisher, who in 1984 took off on the Space Shuttle Discovery as an astronaut for NASA. And another trailblazer, the trackside engineer, Steph Travers, who in 2020 became the first black woman to stand on the podium for Formula One. in Formula One history and how she's encouraging more women of colour

to choose STEM and F1 as a career. So do join me tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, it's Ray Winston. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, history's toughest heroes.

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