Woman's Hour - Westminster honeytrap scam, What we can learn from toddlers, Saudi Arabia

Episode Date: April 8, 2024

Dame Andrea Jenkyns MP has become the first woman to publicly speak about being a victim to the suspected Westminster honeytrap scam. What does the scam mean for politics? And what do we mean by honeytrap? Former deputy chief whip Anne Milton joins Emma Barnett to discuss, along with political correspondent at The Sun, Noa Hoffman.During the late 90s and the early 2000s, belly button piercings were everywhere. They were made popular by celebrities like Naomi Campbell, Britney Spears and Beyoncé. The trend slowly faded away in the 2010s, but with 90s and Y2K fashion back in style - so is the belly button piercing. Fashion Director at The Sunday Times, Karen Dacre, got one the first time around, and Dr Helge Gillmeister, Reader of Psychology at the University of Essex, has studied the appeal of the belly button piercing. They join Emma to discuss naval piercings. Could we be happier and more successful if we acted like toddlers? Dr Hasan Merali, Paediatric emergency medicine physician, Associate Professor at McMaster University and author of Sleep Well, Take Risks, Squish the Peas, tells Emma what we can learn about self-improvement from toddlers.The WTA Finals this year will be held in Riyadh, Saudia Arabia. The decision has drawn criticism from female tennis legends such as Martina Navratilova, because of the state of women’s rights in the country, but others including Billie Jean King support the move. What is life like for women in Saudia Arabia today? And why has the WTA chosen them to host the finals? Emma speaks to sports journalist Molly McElwee and Professor at the LSE Middle East Centre, Madawi Al-Rasheed. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. I hope the weekend was a decent one. If you do have children, perhaps you're now happy to be back at work for a break, I say in inverted commas. But if you happen to live with a toddler, you're in luck, apparently, as they should all, for all of us, be our new self-help gurus, parents or not.

That's according to one of our guests today, who's compiled the evidence and can speak as both a paediatrician and parent. We're also going to be getting the latest on the suspected Westminster honey trap plot because the first woman to speak publicly about being targeted has come out over the weekend. The Conservative MP Dame Andrea Jenkins said she too was messaged becoming the latest MP to share in this experience and has accused her Conservative MP colleague William Wragg of unforgivable behaviour after he handed over some MPs and Westminster staffers phone

numbers to a man he met on a gay dating app. Mr Ragg has apologised for his actions, which he said were driven by fear on what sensitive and compromising material this individual had on him. I wanted to get your take on this and ask if you've ever been duped by someone outside of your contacts on your phone who'd messaged you. It can be more sophisticated than we assume. It may not be trying to send over images or get you to send sensitive images. It may be a text and then a number you're set to follow and you can't quite believe you did follow that

and then what happened. We'll be hearing from the former minister and former Conservative Deputy Chief Whip, Anne Milton, about this vulnerability and the corridors of power and what should be done. We'll be hearing from Anne shortly. But have you been targeted or duped? If you feel you can share, get in touch. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media at BBC Women's Hour or you can email me through the Women's Hour website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note

03700100444. I'm aware as I'm sharing those contact details how much we live our lives on these devices, the so-called black mirror, as Charlie Brooker put it, but you may not have had a positive experience when it comes to receiving messages from those outside of your contacts. What happened? What happened next? What should happen in this particular scenario? We'll get into that very shortly. But also, belly button piercing. It's back. I'm as baffled by it as when it was first in fashion in the 90s and I was a kid. In fact, I'm personally baffled by all piercings.

I don't have my ears pierced. I never quite understand the allure. I'm sure I'll be helped out by some of our guests today. Perhaps you can too. What is it? Why do you do it? I'm going back whole as they put it and that's not a bad joke as I came with no piercings although maybe who knows what the future may hold

but I'm pretty safe to say I'm not planning on getting my navel pierced anytime soon despite the recent space of pop stars doing that and apparently more of us going back to it or doing it for the first time I just remember people doing it getting in a lot of trouble that wasn't what put me off and it getting infected and people smelling it i'm so sorry to bring that up but these are the memories why why why why you can get in touch on the same numbers i'd love to hear from you but going back to the corridors of power and abuse of power of those in power potentially

the suspected honey trap plot targeting westminster which all began with the conservative the corridors of power and abuse of power of those in power, potentially. The suspected honey trap plot targeting Westminster, which all began with the Conservative MP William Wragg, vice chairman no less of the Conservative Party's powerful 1922 scrutinising committee, admitting that he gave out personal phone numbers of colleagues to a person he'd met on a dating app. Several MPs, members of staff in Westminster and a political journalist have since said that they received said flirtatious messages and in some cases explicit photographs

in what's been called a suspected spear phishing attack which is a targeted cyber attack that tries to get its victims to reveal confidential information. The Met Police has confirmed it is carrying out an investigation following reports that a number of unsolicited messages were sent to MPs over recent months. And as I mentioned, the Conservative MP Dame Andrea Jenkins is the first woman to come out and say she too received messages. Yesterday, she posted on social media, I too received the WhatsApp and reported it. She goes on, Well, what action should that be? Anne Milton, former Conservative Deputy Chief Whip and a former minister and MP,

I'm sure we'll have some thoughts from her time in the Whip's office. But first, Noah Hoffman's here, the Sun's political correspondent, to bring us up to speed. Noah, I'm talking about honey traps. What exactly is going on in Westminster? So what we've seen happening, or at least coming to light over the past week, is a series of what we call spear phishing expeditions, where MPs have been targeted by an individual who goes by the name of either Charlie or Abby.

Charlie or Abby will then sort of send kind of sexualized messages in the hope, we believe, of receiving compromising material in return. And then once that material has been attained they can then use it to sort of leverage either further information or in the case of Will Ragg the personal contact details of other MPs. This situation then do we know how widespread it is do we know how many may have been contacted because I may be only able as you are to mention those who have said it already. Yeah so we believe that it's more than those who have come forward. It could be as many as dozens of MPs and we know of one political journalist as well but a lot of this depends on again people deciding to reveal themselves as a target. So it could be more widespread than initially anticipated. Numbers are actually not super difficult to get around Westminster.

So if this individual, I imagine, was able to attain the number of quite a few MPs, once you have that sort of starting basket, it's not super difficult to then find the others. Just for those who are thinking, I mean, I talked about spear phishing. There's a range of messages, but they seem to all be quite similar, don't they? Trying to show an explicit photograph and then perhaps get information back. Is that a fair way of summarising it? Yeah, exactly. Okay. So for those listening, thinking, we entrust these in the corridors of

power, whether it's MPs or staffers to be attuned to risk and to think about security, not least of the country. For those thinking, how has this happened? What does this say? What would you say in response to that? So I, well, the public would be correct. MPs should be alert to these types of risks that unfortunately come with the job, and especially given the volatility of international affairs right now. Although, interestingly, it's not believed that this individual is sort of an agent of China. But nonetheless, the fact that there's been so much discussion and discourse about just how vulnerable people in positions of power are when it comes to technology and social media, they should be alert. But interestingly, the individuals who are part of

this attack have used what has historically and very famously been a weak spot, not for everyone, but for a lot of people, which is sex. And we saw that MP, like at least one MP, Will Wragg, did fall for that. So they were very, they were targeting people very specifically and using the sort of one area they believed would be a weak spot. The question here, and I'll come to Anne Milton in just a moment on it, but the question of what should happen to William Wragg. Separate to this, he'd already announced he was stepping down whenever the next general election is. But what are people saying about that? So there are a very wide range of opinions. There's a camp who do feel a lot of empathy for him. And split within them are those who just cannot deal with the Tories losing yet

another by-election ahead of sort of theelection around the same time as the May local elections and then ahead of a general election. So some people will want to stop that from happening. Others will take into consideration that Mr. Raag has spoken very openly about the fact that he has a plethora of mental health issues and has suffered seriously from depression. He's taken time out from being an MP because of his depression. This is all things that he's spoken about openly. So and then there

are people who thought, you know, you're a human being, you make mistakes as well. On the other hand, you have MPs such as Andrew Jenkins, such as Nadine Dorries. Let's also bear in mind that both of them are allies of Boris Johnson, who Will Ragg was no friend of. But nonetheless, they will come with a valid opinion. Some might agree with that. He was very silly. He put other MPs' safety, he compromised the safety of other MPs and therefore he should be disciplined. And also is on the 1922 committee, which is, for those who don't follow Westminster that closely, is an important committee when it comes to scrutiny within the Conservative Party at the very top. Yeah, exactly. And he also, interestingly, has a very long documented history of making sort of

big common speeches about ethics, about how Parliament needs to be sort of cleaned up from the wrong ends and the scandal. So I think that also piles pressure onto the team who feel he should be disciplined because they think there's an element of hypocrisy as well. Let me, I should say at this point, we approached William Wragg for comment this morning, but haven't received a response. And the House of Commons spokesperson for the BBC, to the BBC rather, said it took security extremely seriously and had provided MPs and staff with tailored advice to make them aware of risks online.

Let me come to you, Anne Milton, and first perhaps your reaction to the first woman to come out about this, Dame Andrea Jenkins. She talks about being a mother with a young child. What's your take on that? Well, I think if I was one of the MPs whose phone number was passed on, I'd be very angry. I think, you know, there's no occasion where one should give out the phone numbers of even your friends without checking with them first. But clearly, Will Ragg was under pressure.

He felt that he was going to be threatened with exposure. And that's why he did it. I think my advice to Will Ragg would be not to wait for anybody to take any action. I would advise him to stand aside from everything that he is on and, you know, pass his remaining time in the House of Commons on the back benches out of the public eye. It's interesting because there's a lot of messages coming in about the response to him individually. For instance, William Wragg should be sacked. His conduct is dreadful and a terrible example of someone involved in the leadership of our country. There are others perhaps with a more sympathetic view, not least some of his colleagues we were just hearing about from Noah.

But the ire from somebody like Andrea, as I say, the first woman to speak about this is palpable. But there are others saying this is the time we live in, we're all still learning. You don't sound like you can come down on that side of things. Well, not quite. I mean, you know, there have been attempted stings, well, and some successful ones. MPs, they were previously done by email,

you know, offering MPs jobs. They go to a meeting, they say things unwisely, and they're being recorded all the time. This has been going on for a long time. So no MP, nobody actually, should answer an email or a text message from somebody unless they're clear about who it's from and who the organisation is that they purport to represent. So, I mean, Will clearly knows he did something wrong. It's not an excuse, but it is an explanation. And that is, if you are an MP,

and you are single and looking for a relationship, it's quite tricky, because becoming an MP, you give up some of your privacy. And not only that, you take on a responsibility. And that is to demonstrate very high standards. Will fell well short of that. He compromised other MPs. And as I say, I think he would be wise to stand aside from every committee that he is on. And the whip? I don't know. I'm not an MP now. I mean, he's a man who's suffered from mental health problems in the past. If I was there now,

I would take into account his mental state. But as I say, he should stand aside. He shouldn't be sacked. He should stand aside and try and regather some dignity from this terrible and, you know, this terrible situation, really. We do, and I'm mindful, and I remember us speaking about this when you were the first woman to hold that particular role in the Whips office for the Conservatives. But I remember us talking about perhaps what that lens brought to your position, but also some of the unique aspects

of when you do give up your privacy as an MP, as a woman, sometimes what that can entail and some of the threats and some of the unique aspects of when you do give up your privacy as an MP, as a woman, sometimes what that can entail and some of the threats and some of the abuse. I suppose it's just interesting as well at this point to see this happening, well, firstly through a man, through a male MP, but also how both male and female MPs have to kind of navigate this world now and those vulnerabilities. Do you think, for those who are not understanding how MPs could be so vulnerable and have been in this case,

not in all of the cases, sorry, but in how this began, do you think the training is there? Do you think there is the right support? Well, there should be. I mean, there absolutely should be. You know, it's the same with email. It's the same with text messages. Do not respond. I mean, right back in the day when I first got elected, which is nearly 20 years ago now, I can remember, you know, messages from the Whips office saying, please do not participate in surveys. No, I might not be terribly pleased with this please do not participate in

service they're they're rarely useful and the thing is unsolicited approaches from people should be checked out yes before you give away anything it and it is difficult and i think i think in the situation of will rag one needs to separate excuses and explanations. And also bear in mind that, you know, MPs are 650 of them. They have got the same number of people who suffer from alcohol problems, drug problems, mental health problems and all the rest of it. The job of the whips office is to support people. And sometimes that support is quite intense to make sure they don't get in situations like this. You can't, of course, always prevent it, but that support does need to be in place. It's also interesting here again, a sort of bigger comment, but a message about WhatsApp and what should be allowed and not be

allowed. The solution is MPs shouldn't be allowed to have WhatsApp on their phones. I was in banking and we were banned by the regulators from having it. I mean, again, there's another way perhaps people can reach each other. But there is a concern coming through from some of our listeners about the vulnerabilities and the way to access our elected officials. And also we've heard on this programme many times specifically about the abuse women receive through a variety of channels, and whether that is going to put off the next generation. Well, I wouldn't be surprised if it did. And I think it's very sad,

particularly for women. You know, we need more female MPs. We have done for years and it's not getting better, but it's not getting any easier to encourage women to do it. Because I think women are disproportionately targeted, particularly over the sort of death threats and abuse they get. The answer to the phones is have two phones, have a work, I mean, if I was still in the House of Commons, I would do that. Have a work phone and a personal phone. Have WhatsApp on your personal phone. But, you know, as Noah rightly said, it's not difficult to get hold of MPs' phone numbers, but you use a work phone for journalists and for the media and for your constituents and all the rest of it. So at least you have got some way of filtering out

the messages that you wouldn't respond to. Did you happen to see, just while you're here, Anne, as a former member of the Conservatives, did you happen to see this poster about Britain from the Conservatives' account talking about what's good in the world, about this country? It didn't feature any women. It's now been pulled. talking about what's good in the world about this country. It didn't feature any women.

It's now been pulled. It had His Majesty, the Prime Minister, some male footballers. I don't know if you had a look at that. I haven't seen it. I heard it discussed on the radio. I mean, no women and you put in the king. I mean, how could you get it so wrong? I'm appalled at some. I mean, not particularly with the Conservatives, but with them all.

I'm appalled at some of the social media videos that the political parties are putting out. It is a signal of just how desperate everybody is. I'm pretty shocked, actually. Well, you are, as I said, the first woman to hold that particular post, former Conservative Deputy Chief in the Conservative Party. Always good to get your take.

We don't know when the election is, so we don't know how much longer we'll have these sorts of messages, I suppose, coming to us via social media, not the other messages we were talking about, but perhaps not even this year. It might be right at the start of next year, Anne. Well, it's a very long general election campaign and I fear it will get worse. I mean, there have been some slip ups for videos from the Conservative Party. I mean, what in heaven's name persuaded them to put the King on a message?

They're not here. They're not here. We've asked a lot of people on the programme this morning. We're very happy you said yes, Anne. So let's take it with that, shall we? Anne Milton, former Conservative Deputy Chief Whip, former Minister and MP. Thank you for your take on that initial story,

which also many of you have got in touch about. And I was just also hearing to put us in the picture from Noah Hoffman, the Sun's political correspondent. Judith's written in to say, it concerns me about the trend

for sending such photos. What kind of role model are they to young people who we are discouraging from sending such photos it doesn't require a lot of intelligence to foresee what the outcome of such activity will be another if you use a non-smartphone which does not have a photographic capacity you avoid surprise rude images from vulgar scammers simple Simple, says this listener. William Rags should be sacked. His conduct is dreadful and a terrible example of someone involved in the leadership of our country. And another, I was bombarded with texts and WhatsApp messages out of the blue from a stranger just last week. He knew my name and wanted me to start a conversation with him. I did, of course, ignore all of the messages. The very next day, the story about MPs came out. It's interesting,

we've discussed this sort of issue before, specifically to do with women. There's actually some data around women perhaps being at times or certain women being more vulnerable to romance scams. There was actually a study in last year from Lloyd's Banking Group found men were more likely to succumb, excuse me, men were more likely forgive me, to succumb to romance scams but only slightly, they made up 52% of cases but we have discussed it from the women's point of view and I remember

some of those stories so it's very interesting to get your take, a lot of you commenting on the story which is very interesting to hear, if you have an experience as well and you wish to get in touch the number I hope safely to get in touch on 84844 or you can email via the Woman's Hour website. But to something completely different, belly button piercings, they are back or perhaps yours never went away. Perhaps you're still very happy with it. During the late 90s and early 2000s, belly button piercings were everywhere,

popularised by celebrities at the time such as Britney Spears and Beyonce, it became an almost teenage rite of passage to get a sparkling bath through your navel. Gringing remembering it. But the trend has slowly faded and had slowly faded away by the 2010s. Until now, with 90s and Y2K fashion back in style, so is belly button piercing apparently.

And Gen Z pop stars such as Dua Lipa, Addison Rae, Billie Eilish, Ice Spice have all been showing glittering gemstones in their navels. Karen Dacre, fashion director at the Sunday Times got her belly button pierced the first time around and she's here alongside Dr Helga Gilmeister,

reader of psychology at the University of Essex, who's studied the appeal of piercing. A warm studied the appeal of piercing. A warm welcome to both of you. Karen, when did you first have yours done and why? Tell us. I was, hi, I was 16, just turned, I think. And I begged and begged and begged to have it done. And then I turned 16 and my grandmother, who was a bit of a wild rebel herself, gave me the money and off I went to Edinburgh on my own

and found, it was like a word of mouth tattoo parlour at the time, where everyone went, you chose the bar with the beads you wanted and off you went. What did you choose? What was the design? It's a silver bar with a bright blue kind of gemstone lodged in the middle of my navel. Oh, lovely. You're reminding me of one of those trolls that I like with the gemstones in the belly button. You remember those?

There was real currency in what colour you came from at the time. Correctly. Yeah, exactly. I'm sure trolls are back as well now if we're going back in time and collecting those. But for you, was it was it was it rebellion was it a sign of total fashion you're obviously a fashion editor I mean it was MTV 100% it was all I was consuming those were the heyday of music videos you came home from school you found a TV channel that was streaming all things Britney Spears all those kind of icons of the time and you had your sights set firmly on that.

And that's where you went. I guess it was also rebellion at that time as well. It was the first thing that I did that maybe my mum didn't approve of. I was just going to say, I love that your grandmother funded it. You know, that's another level here. I'm really enjoying that aspect. When was the great removal? I think it's hard to recall exactly. There was a long crop top

period, I believe around my early 20s. And then I think probably I went off to university and realised that maybe it wasn't the thing anymore. There's still a hole though. So when I stand in the shower, the water delightfully runs through my navel. And that's post having two children. So, you know, it doesn't go away that's nice that's nice actually I don't know can you keep it I don't know if you can keep it in while you're pregnant but um probably not not advised by a certain point is it I definitely didn't try no okay fine and what do you make as someone who follows fashion for a living what do you make of the trend returning I think it it's like anything

these things are cyclical and they come back again and again but I think I don't know if you're if you're 18 you're doing it now because your icons on TikTok or wherever you're kind of consuming your information they have them but I also think piercing is always a mark of rebellion it makes you feel control in control it's kind of a nice it's a nice kind of way to claim your own body i suppose and i think often women do these things because especially on their navels because you can cover it up it's one you can't go to work maybe you can't go to work with a bell in your eyebrow but you can happily have hidden away the fact that you're still a rebel at heart maybe yes well that's interesting let's's interesting. Let's talk to Dr Helga Gilmeister about why this happens.

What do we know of the history of this and why it happens? Good morning. Thanks for having me. So the history of piercings is long and sort of really embedded in our human story. And you see it across all cultures. So it is, in a way, a ubiquitous form of self-expression. Now, piercings, I think so, in terms of the recorded history, dates back at least 5,000 years. And that's mostly, I think, the most well-documented forms are in the face or the ears, the nose, and in

the lips of the mouth, the tongue, and so on. With the belly button piercing, however, you will read that seemingly ancient Egyptian pharaohs had them as a mark of nobility or so, so often piercings are to signal status, to signal group membership as a sort of a rite of passage, which you mentioned earlier. But when I looked into this, and actually this Egyptian pharaoh story seems more of a myth than fact. So it's more likely that actually belly button piercings are really a sign of the 20th century so sort of warmed up through the counterculture movements of the 70s and 80s and then really um taking taking hold like they did for you karen in the 90s and in the sort of

early 2000s so and by that time they'd sort of overtaken um or been on a par with uh ear earlobe kind of piercings in terms of popularity but they're very specific to women i think this is sort of where i was really interested in in them um see our men don't really tend to to have them and they are in a part of the body that for women is often one that they feel less satisfied with. So if you ask women and if you see where they sort of fixate on images, then it's the abdominal region, hips and thighs that women are often less satisfied with. So it was sort of interesting to me because I'm interested in body representations, body image, why women would pierce their body and whether this has something to do with increasing that body image, with enhancing your kind of feeling or feeling

attractive to yourself and others. And that's kind of where the study that we did came in. And well, no, that is fascinating. And to think about that, as you will know, Karen, from where women have typically at times, some women, I should say, felt less satisfied about their bodies, perhaps adorning it with a blue gemstone in your case may enhance and make you feel like you've owned it or dressed it up. it's almost like the belly piercing becomes a highlighter for your success in adverted commas. So it's become, if you've done loads of work in the gym, you've got an amazing flat stomach, it's become a sort of, certainly on the red carpet, that's what we see. We see these women who have these incredible bodies. And then the belly buttons, like the icing on the cake to say, hi, here's my perfectly toned stomach, which is why mine is definitely underwrapped now. But I definitely think there's an element of, it becomes a way to showboat this thing, here's my perfectly toned stomach which is why mine is definitely under wraps now but um i definitely think there's an element of it becomes a way to showboat this thing this great part of

your body you've also had a look at the fact that the the women in and generally coming away from belly button now the piercings for women in their 30s 40s and 50s women still going along that track and i think go on tell us a bit more about that I've written a lot about midlife piercings recently because we find certainly around the women I socialize with and the women I see piercing has never been more popular whether it's and not just kind of the classic earlobe piercing which I know you don't have Emma I know it's good it's good with the headphones they go straight on it's really neat with this work. All the kind of ways up the ears,

different part that people now pierce the inside of the inner ear. There's so many. And there's a huge rise of kind of luxury, boutique style piercing places, which has come with that rise of kind of midlife piercing. So places like Maria Tash, who's an American jeweler stroke piercer, she has a concession in Liberty in London.

So that's the place if you want a midlife piercing, that's where everyone goes. They do a belly button bar, which is about, I think about 600 pounds. Other piercing places available, I'll say at this point on the BBC. But you also, I'll come back to you, Helga, in just a moment,

but you've also seen the rise, well, it's I'm sure been the case for some time, but you've noted the rise of mothers and daughters as well trying to to find perhaps some commonality in in the piercing world. We have a jewellery editor on the Sunday Times whose daughter begged and begged teenage daughter was I think she was 15 when she finally relinquished because you have to if you're under 16 I think currently in this country, you go with an adult and they provide permission for you to have the piercing done. But I think it's an increasingly popular trend for the mother and daughter

to have the piercing together. So maybe the daughter has the belly button and the mum has some sort of extra hole put in her ear. I guess it's a bonding exercise of sorts. I felt like everybody's mother when this was happening in Manchester at Affleck's Palace. I was not doing any of this, but just watching and holding people's hands and then helping them hide it from their mother. Helga, when we go back through history and we look at why women do get pierced or perhaps doing it together, what else can we say from your

look at this? Well, I don't really know. But I mean, there is this sort of encouraging group cohesion kind of element to, there's a ritualistic element to it. So that's certainly known about in history, yes. And just coming away from people doing it together, but when you were looking at why women do it and that whole relationship, was there you you hadn't been expecting um not so much i mean we sort of

you mentioned some rebelliousness um earlier and that certainly was one of the reasons but far more common was uh indeed this sort of um women wanting to increase their their physical attractiveness um so so the thing with the belly i mean piercings have been studied but just as a group of you know body modifications to do nobody had really looked at navel piercings or you know as we call them belly piercings in um in in isolation um so that's what we did in here we really saw that there was this body image and enhancing element there and we also saw that about a third of the women that we surveyed said that they hated their belly before they had their neighbor pierced so and yeah so we really think that although we saw these sort of positive effects on body image and

self-perception that we found in our study across all of our sample for some women in particular that sort of a dawning of this perhaps less loved part of their body can be like an act of self-care and perhaps reunite them with with that part of their body no i mean each their own i i i i if i can't understand it i always like to try and understand it and um and i see that for people that it's a way of ownership same Same with tattoos. There's lots of different ways people are customising themselves and reclaiming different parts. And it is really fascinating.

Dr Helga Gilmeister, thank you, reader of psychology at the University of Essex and Karen Dacre, fashion director at the Sunday Times. No belly button piercing

in at the moment, but definitely remembers what that experience was like. And I'm sure some of you will be able to relate whether it's belly button or elsewhere in the body. I mean, from Barbara here, why torture your body? We could add waxing to that list. No piercings on me. But Jean says, I celebrated my 60th birthday by getting my nose pierced. A lifelong ambition. Happy birthday to you, Jean. There you go.

So keep those messages coming in. But I did mention, and this did prompt a message straight away, about the new self-help gurus. Maybe living a little closer than you think if you have young children. Don't worry about them on social media. We're talking about toddlers. You might have one in your life. You may live with one, as I say, or you may know one through a friend who has one, or you may have had them before. We've definitely all been them, but apparently they could be the best teachers of self-improvement. Dr. Hassan Murali is here to make the case, in case your eyebrows just shot off of your face. professor at McMaster University in Canada and the author of Sleep Well, Take Risks, Squish the Peas, Secrets from the Science of Toddlers for a Happier, More Successful Way of Life. He joins me now,

I'm sure very early, in Toronto. Good morning. Good morning. It's nice to be here. Thank you for coming to tell us why we need to perhaps listen to those who have sometimes quite a bad reputation, toddlers, because we do badge toddlers in quite a negative way sometimes, don't we? Yeah, I think that's a little bit unfair. I mean, I understand it because that's when they're getting attention when they're having their tantrums. But if we put it into perspective, those tantrums, median time is only about three minutes, and they're awake for 11 to 12 hours a day. And so what I like to focus on is how they're spending those other hours of their day. And that's laughter, playing,

building relationships, spending time learning. And so I think toddlers do a lot of things right. And if we look at the data around adults who act in certain ways, like toddlers, you'll see that it really helps us be more happier and less stressed. Take us to some of the specifics. Well, what do you think you can learn from an individual who obviously can't go to the toilet by themselves, doesn't have a responsibility in many senses, and is heavily reliant on others and screams when they don't get what they want. Tell us what we can learn. Sure. So there's one thing that people don't think of as much, but there's a lot of great data behind it. And that's self-talk. So I have a three-year-old. And when I go pick her up at

preschool, and I'm walking down the halls, I hear a lot of laughter and encouragement. But when I see the toddlers by themselves, they're doing a lot of things out loud. Little Julie's putting on her mitts and saying, Julie can do it. And Colton's over on the side and he's looking down at his boots and they're on the wrong way. And so he says, oh, Colton did this wrong. And this idea of self-talk is really a way to decrease stress in anxiety-provoking situations. There's a lot of great studies with adults where they're in MRI machines, they're shown aversive images, and they're asked to do one of two different things. What am I feeling right now?

Or what is Hassan feeling right now, for example, and talking to yourself in third person. And we see that the areas of the brain that are involved with emotional reactivity are actually decreased. And so self-talk is one of these wonderful lessons we can learn from toddlers that has a lot of great data if we were able to do it as adults.

And it's a very simple thing to do. That's what's interesting about your book, having dipped in and out in the last few days when my children would allow with a one-year-old and a six-year-old. But we're just at the beginning of toddlerdom again. I believe the official start is one and then goes to around three or so, you say in your book. But you've got a lot of evidencedom again. I believe the official start is one and then goes to around three or so,

you say in your book. But you've got a lot of evidence in there where you've looked at studies or rather you've looked at what studies have been done as well to show and to back up some of what you're saying. So self-talk is a really interesting one. And you can imagine, you would hope, that a toddler's self-narrative, self-talk isn't as negative as adults can become when they do talk to themselves. Yeah, exactly. They're much more positive. And, you know, that's one of the great strategies that we can implement with ourselves as well. Like we often get into the cycle of negative self-talk. And I think one of the best strategies that we can do is give ourselves more positive self-talk. So an easy way

to do it is when you're down on yourself and angry with yourself, think about talking to yourself as a good friend instead of actually you. And you'll notice that difference in how you talk to yourself. And I think that's one, another simple change that we could make to make our own self-talk more positive. I was thinking of our conversation last night because I was also struck by sleep, okay? You talk a lot about how toddlers, or rather those in charge of toddlers, prioritize their sleep. But toddlers themselves do

because everything really goes wrong if they haven't had what they need in that department. And I was slightly wryly laughing at myself because I had a lot to do once said children were in bed last night, which didn't get me to bed, I think, till midnight nearly. And I really wasn't messing around. There was shopping to unload, tidying, cleaning, washing, you know, all of that. And my partner, my husband, doing the same.

And I was thinking, no, well, I need to go to sleep now. Eight o'clock. I was ready. But there was a lot to do, including think about this conversation in today's programme. So it's quite challenging to try and directly apply it. But sleep is a good one. Yeah, definitely. I think that's probably the foundation of wellness is really getting good sleep. And I think if there's one takeaway of what people can do to improve their lives is getting better sleep. And the toddler sleep routine is perfect. And it works so well for

adults. It's so simple. It's just three easy steps. So an hour before you want to go to sleep, you take a hot bath or shower. Number two, for toddlers, it's applying lotion, and that can be applying lotion or some other hygiene activity. And always, like every toddler, needs to read a book before bed. And none of this involves any screen time. And reading is another thing they excel at. But that's a nice way to end the toddler bedtime routine and easily adaptable for adults and definitely helps with sleep. Right, well, I'm going to set a bedtime. That's what I decided after reading some of your book and try to stick to it. I hope not to miss the target. And there's also around food. There's some interesting take on food. I know there's part of the title is called

Squish the Peas, but eating when you need and eating what you need. Yeah, I mean, toddlers are the original mindful eaters. They're very in tune with their bodies. And it's actually very difficult to make a toddler overeat. And that's where really the Squish the Peas comes from. It's their playfulness and everything, but it's really when they're full, they kind of just play with their food or sometimes, and this is another great toddler lesson, say no in a more powerful way than anyone is able to, because they know when they're getting full and they can stop when they're eating and they don't eat for all the reasons that adults do often because of boredom, because they're with another person, because they're in front of the TV. And I think that's another great lesson from toddlers is how to listen to our bodies a bit better when we're eating. Although as someone who really wants to make sure that

the child is full, you know, it isn't always when they aren't full, it's they might not like that thing. They may not have, they may have got bored, you know, that that's quite tricky territory, that one, I think, to slide across. It is, it is trickier. And of course, yeah, we want to make sure that they eat enough. But certainly, I think as parents, and from what I see in my own practice, is that the worry is overhyped in parents, because if their child is tracking along their growth curve just fine, then they're able to regulate their own intake better than adults think they can do it for them or their own toddlers.

Yeah, I mean, we're talking during an obesity crisis in the Western world, of course, and you'll be well aware of that as a doctor, albeit as a paediatrician. But I think it's also, there must be some irony for you putting this together both as a parent and as a doctor looking after children because there'll be some parents listening to this

or remembering if those days are behind them, if they've had them at all, or wanted to, or haven't been able to, I'm always mindful of that. But there'll be those who thought, well, I actually had life pretty nailed. And then I did have a toddler. And my sleep went out the window, my ability to say no to sugar went out the window, or a lot more sugar than normal. You can see where I'm going with this. Yeah, and certainly that's true. And parents do get a break because being around a little person is challenging because they're so active and they want to do so many different things. And it's tiring. I have a three-year-old and I'm tired. But I'll tell you in the last two years since

she was one, I have never laughed as much as I have. And every day is filled with a lot of laughter and a lot of games. And there's so many better things in my life now because of her. She's asleep right now, but as soon as she gets up, she's going to come over here and start spinning me in my chair and start laughing, and that's going to be a lot of fun. She's having more sleep. You had to go to work. This is some of the issue. You're promoting what you've found here. A message just came in from one of our listeners here in the UK. We're just talking, if you're joining,

Dr. Hassan Murali's talking to us from Canada. Woman's Hour, regarding self-talk, is that the same as talking to yourself? I'm 65 and three quarters. I do it all of the time. Do we say that's the same as talking to yourself? Yes, exactly. It's talking to yourself, but just changing the I to second or third person. So you need to use your own name when you're doing things. And that can help decrease anxiety in stressful situations. It can help with sports, for example, scoring more basketball shots. And then it can also, in the opposite way, help us get rid of the rumination that sometimes can lead to insomnia when we're talking to ourselves in a more positive way. OK, so replace it with that and then go for it. A message here saying everything your expert is saying about learning from toddlers reminds me how much the elderly have in common with two-year-olds.

And another one here, though, different take, which we have to just come to while i have you uh i think if we're throwing a tantrum to get what we wanted then we'd be happy but we'd certainly end up single and alone but if it's jumping in puddles and kicking up leaves then it's a resounding yes from me says michelle who's listening but the the emotional regulation piece that what do you say about that yeah i mean that's challenging and I'm not arguing that they're perfect. They do have a lot of issues that they're slowly working on. And that's just part of their development. And they'll get there.

What I want to say is that we as adults should be looking to how we used to act a little bit more and how they act all the time. And that will certainly help us a lot in our own lives. And there's a great example right at the beginning of the book where you talk just because, you know, it's not to hold you to every single part of a toddler and we have to transfer it over. It's just interesting to ask you that question. And I'm not trying to be pedantic about it,

and I'm sure our listeners aren't either, but where you talk about the spaghetti marshmallow challenge. So it's a good example. Why don't you explain around creativity where you talk about the spaghetti marshmallow challenge. So it's a good example. Why don't you explain around creativity and how your brain stops working as you get older? Yeah, so as we get older, we develop our prefrontal cortex, which helps us plan, think about the future,

a lot of important things. But toddler minds, they're able to just absorb everything around them. And that helps them be more creative. And they don't have all the pattern recognition that we have because their brains are still developing that. And so the marshmallow challenge is a great one. So you get 20 sticks of spaghetti, a yard of tape, a yard of string and one marshmallow, and you have to build the largest tower. And so kindergartners were pitted against a wide variety of adults, and they

beat out almost every single group of adults except for engineers, but certainly business students, lawyers, other groups of adults, because that toddler or childhood mindset can make us more creative. Just finally, I think it's fascinating to give an example like that, and it is a fascinating one, and quite dispiriting in some ways. Pay inequality between the sexes. You have something on that to say? Yeah, absolutely. I talk about this a little bit about in the book. And it's something that just would not exist in toddler world. Because, you know, we talk a lot about disadvantageous inequity when we have less or women are paid less than men for the same type of work. But what toddlers are also concerned about, yes, they're concerned about that,

and they will protest that, is something called advantageous inequity, when they have more than others. So if you take a group of three-year-olds, you have them work in pairs with someone else, and then you give them a reward. And for toddlers, it's always stickers because that's the highest currency. And so if you give them more than their partner that they worked with on a project, they will do one of two things. One, they'll reject it. Or two, they'll happily accept it and then redistribute those rewards with their partner. And this is true repeatedly, whether

they're working with another toddler, whether working with an adult, whether they're working with a puppet. And so this idea of fairness is very strong in toddlerdom. Toddlerdom. You've taken us into it and there'll be those who are living it right now, but perhaps a different lens, which is why it was good to hear from you, Dr. Hassan Murali. I'll let you get you back to being spun in your chair when your little one wakes up. The book is called Sleep Well, Take Risks, Squish the Peas, Secrets from the Science of Toddlers for a Happier, More Successful Way of Life. That is something else entirely different and you may have read about this,

you may have heard about this, you may have wondered why this is happening. Let's tell you more. This year's Women's Tennis Association finals are to be held in November in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia's capital as part of a three-year deal estimated to be held in November in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia's capital, as part of a three-year deal estimated to be worth £55 million. It means tennis is just the latest sport behind boxing, Formula One and football to join a growing list that are holding big events in Saudi.

Even before the final decision was made, the idea had prompted criticism from high circles, with tennis legends Martina Navratilova and Chris Everett writing in the Washington Post that this is a step backwards for women and women's sport and airing their concerns about Saudi Arabia's human rights record and its restrictions on women's lives. But Billie Jean King, one of the trailblazing founders of this tournament and a champion of both women and LGBTQ plus communities, supports the move saying it could help drive change in the region. Molly McElwee is a freelance sports journalist

and Madawi Al-Rashid is a visiting professor at the LSE Middle East Centre. They both join me now. Molly, I'll come to you first. Tell us how important are these finals? Welcome to the programme. Thanks. Thanks for having me. They're really important.

I'd say the Wta finals are um the most important um it's the most important tournament outside of the grand slams really so it's the wta's kind of crown jewel event so it's very significant that they've decided to take it to saudi arabia and not surprising because last year they kind of toyed with the idea before making a last-minute decision to take it to Cancun for one year so I think everyone knew this was coming but still it's it's huge news and a big shift in tennis and women's tennis in particular. And what is the reason and what has been the reaction? Give us a sense of that if you can.

So like you said with the reaction reaction from chris evett for example and martina navratilova there's been some pushback from from former players but on the whole the current crop of top players haven't been against this idea they've been quite supportive of the idea of going to saudi arabia and that in big part is due to the fact that the WTA finals have been a bit of a mess for the last three years or so. So the WTA had a long-term deal to host the finals in China but that ended in 2020 after concerns over Chinese doubles player Peng Shuai's safety and so the WTA decided to take the tournament away from China. But since then, there's been a lot of instability.

They've not had a long-term deal that's caused financial instability for the organization. And so in a big way, like we've seen Saudi Arabia go to a lot of other sports, the WTA was the part of tennis, I think, that was most vulnerable to this because of the instability that's been caused by the end of their long-term deal in China. So money is I mean and stability I suppose are our key drivers here but it's also a record prize amount is that right? Yes it is a record prize money so that's a big part of it and it's something that the players have really been calling for um in in men's tennis this 50 million dollar prize pot has has has existed for their

finals event and i think the women have vocalized their their kind of um discontent in recent years about prize money not being equal so um this move from the WTA has uh yeah in a big way is kind of trying to trying to yeah trying to bring women's tennis up to to men's tennis in terms of prize money but yeah there's there's the big issue also going to Saudi Arabia in that the WTA is meant to be and has always been this organisation that has stood for and was founded on kind of women's rights and equality and obviously to take its biggest event to Saudi Arabia causes a lot of concern over their human rights record there. Well yes and specifically the treatment of women as a as you say as a women's tournament what about

players who are who are openly gay Are there concerns from those individuals' camps? Yeah, so the only kind of high-profile player who's spoken out against the tour taking the finals to Saudi Arabia has been Daria Kazakina. She's a Russian player who's gay, and she was kind of the only player last year when asked about this potential move who said she was concerned about it and the WTA has confirmed that same-sex couples can share

rooms and accommodation while at the event but obviously those are not the same rights afforded to to people who live in Saudi Arabia and so she she's she's spoken about how she's concerned about this move but most of the other players haven't shared any of that concern. So it's interesting because we've seen in other sports, I think, a lot. There's been more conversation around it, whereas here the current copper players have mostly been in support of the move. Let me bring in Professor Madawi Al-Rashid, originally from Saudi Arabia. What is your response to this? And how can you describe the way women's lives in Saudi differ to the men's at the moment?

Good morning. Yes, I mean, it's a big surprise, but I'm actually not surprised as this is one of the latest episodes in the way Saudi Arabia had succeeded in attracting high profile sport into the country. And Molly mentioned the money and they have capitalized on the financial problems that, for example, football teams like Newcastle or others, the Gulf area, and attracted them to Saudi Arabia, offering money. Now, in terms of the situation in Saudi Arabia, as far as women's rights are concerned, it's a part of the declared intention of the leadership is to empower women. However, on the ground, we see a very big gap

between the narrative about Saudi Arabia opening up, empowering women, and how women's lives are affected and how they live their lives. For example, freedom of expression for men and women is very, very restricted. We have a case in the UK of a Saudi PhD student in Leeds, Salma Shihabi, who simply tweeted some critical opinion about policies in Saudi Arabia. And when she returned over Christmas for the Christmas holiday, she was immediately detained and later sent us to over three decades in prison for what is called her activism. And activism meant that she has been active online,

calling for greater rights for women. It's a disappointment that all the sports associations and foundations are rushing to saudi arabia under the you know with the promise of financial reward and it remains very very a difficult situation for women and while many women in the country may enjoy the spectacle of this highly praised sport but we know for example there is fawzi who is a sport instructor she is in prison since 2022 and until now you know her situation is very difficult simply because of calling for real emancipation and not simply, you know, sports washing or the glamorous appointments that their leadership had made, for example, appointing a woman as ambassador in Washington, appointing women to high profile positions. But everybody knows that appointment is really not empowerment.

And just about, I mean, there were some specific cases there. We had been in touch with representatives from the Saudi government, but hadn't asked about those specific cases. But when you're talking about the life and the experience of women in Saudi Arabia at the moment, and then with this lens on this women's tennis tournament. Are you saying that you have no hope in any way that by doing or by holding these sorts of tournaments and these competitions in Saudi Arabia with the world's eyes on, you know, this is the argument from the likes of Billie Jean King

that I don't wish to praise her, but what she seems to have sort of said is around perhaps you can be part of change and sport can help change. Is there any faith that you have in that? Well, there are two views. I mean, there is one side which says that, you know, engagement with an authoritarian regime might bring change because of the exposure that you've mentioned. And on the other hand, says that boycotting is a way of putting pressure on a dictatorship, basically, an absolute monarchy where people don't have any rights, no elected government. It is the only country in the region that doesn't have an elected national assembly or a parliament and it's a one-man show basically. So between those two extreme situations I think there is probably a middle ground and that is

when these kind of events and associations football, tennis, golf cetera, make their engagement with Saudi Arabia conditional on certain change that actually affects the lives of the people. So it's not a total boycott or total endorsement that will work. It's just in all these situations, a middle ground whereby any kind of involvement in Saudi Arabia is conditional on the country abiding by the international values and norms with regard to gender equality. And this also applies to the sales of arms to Saudi Arabia, like the British government is number two. And it has to make that engagement conditional on Saudi Arabia becoming a respected member of the international community. very much. And a message just on that from the Foreign Office here, we continue to engage closely with Saudi authorities on women's rights issues. And they say positive steps have been made that will always raise issues relating to freedom of speech. And the WTA chief executives told BBC Sport that it's been breaking down barriers for more than 50 years. And we want to create more

opportunities for women to play tennis at the elite level and inspire more women and girls to be involved in it. And we are a global sport. Thank you for your company. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Helena Bonham Carter. And for BBC Radio 4, this is History's Secret Heroes, a new series of rarely heard tales from World War Two. None of them knew that she'd lived this double life. They had no idea that she was Britain's top female codebreaker.

We'll hear of daring risk takers. What she was offering to do was to ski in over the high Carpathian mountains in minus 40 degrees. Of course it was dangerous, but danger was his friend. Helping people was his blood. Subscribe to History's Secret Heroes on BBC Sounds. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.