Woman's Hour - WH Power list sports journalist Fiona Tomas, Climate justice activist Mikaela Loach, Narcissistic mothers, WASPI women

Episode Date: April 4, 2023

On the Woman’s Hour Power List this year, sports reporter Fiona Tomas joins Nuala to discuss the change in kits for the England Women’s football team and her work as a journalist. Climate justice activist Mikaela Loach took the UK government to court for giving tax breaks to fossil fuel companies. Her urgent new book ‘It’s Not That Radical: Climate Action to Transform Our World’ makes the case for tackling the climate crisis in tandem with other inequalities, offering a more hopeful future through practical action. Women affected by the state pension age changes have scored what's been hailed as a major victory in their legal challenge for more compensation. The Government watchdog conceded that part of the investigation into how increases to the state pension age were communicated was flawed and must be reconsidered. The Women Against State Pension Inequality (WASPI) campaign represents the 3.6 million women who, in lots of cases, only got 12 months' notice of a six year increase to their State Pension age. Angela Madden, the chair of WASPI joins Nuala. In the next in our series about narcissistic mothers we hear the story of a woman we are calling 'Scarlett'. She cut off all contact with the mother she believes is a narcissist and has no regrets. Alison Kinnaird was rejected by Edinburgh Art School when she applied as a teenager. Now she’s one of the world’s leading glass artists – and says that rejection was the best thing that ever happened to her. She joins Nuala to explain why and to talk about some of the remarkable things she’s created.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Great to have your company. Today's guests have me thinking about different approaches to life. The WASPI women, that's the Women Against State Pension Inequality, could have as their motto, if at first you don't succeed, try and try again. That's because they have scored what some see as a major victory,

fighting to win compensation for their members, as the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman will review the report investigating changes to state pension age and also how it was communicated to them. It's been a long journey for them. Instead for artist Alison Kinnard, her motto may be that rejection can be a blessing in disguise. A rejection from art school set Alison on her path to become one of the world's leading glass artists and also an influential Scottish harp musician, in case one is not enough. We're going to hear about how she turned that rejection around. And I want to hear if you also managed to do that.

Were you rejected and it turned out to be the best thing to ever happen to you? In any area of your life, I am all ears. You can text the programme. That number is 84844. Text charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. And if you'd like to send a voice note or a WhatsApp message,

that number is 03700 100 444. But the text, 84844. Also with us this hour, young climate justice activist Michaela Loach. She's just written It's Not That Radical, which is her call to action. Maybe it's also her motto. We're going to find out.

And we bring you another fascinating insight into narcissistic mothers. If you've been following that series, I most definitely have and find it just fascinating. I have to say some of the stories that you were sharing and also just your insights on how you see it now, perhaps years later. But first, another victory for England's women's football team. The Lionesses will no longer wear white shorts as part of their kit.

Now, the call was made by the team to create a darker set of shorts as players spoke out about concerns of playing during their periods. West Bromwich Albion, Stoke City and Manchester City football clubs have switched to darker shorts for their female teams. And it follows other sports that have also made the change. The All England Lawn, Tennis and Croquet Club are expected to allow female players to wear dark underwear

under their tennis whites. That's at Wimbledon for the first time this year. And the Irish women's rugby team will wear navy shorts at the Women's Six Nations. So how significant is this? What impact can it really have? Well, I'm delighted to be joined in studio by Fiona Thomas,

sports reporter for the Daily Telegraph, and number 11 on this year's Women's Hour Power List, which we revealed last week. That list recognised 30 women in the UK who've made a significant impact in the sporting world. You can, of course, listen back to that show on BBC Sounds or watch it on the Woman's Hour webpage. Welcome, Fiona, and congratulations for placing on our Power List. Thank you so much. I was gobsmacked. It was a great honour.

Well, we're delighted that you're on it. We're delighted that you're here. Let's talk about these new kits. How significant do you think it is? Do you know what? It's absolutely huge. Like what you just said there in your segment shows that this is a trend that's been happening across the female sporting landscape for, you know, a good 12 months now. And the news yesterday that the Lionesses are going to be ditching the white shorts you know in time for well this Thursday's match against Brazil but also for this year's Football World Cup down in Australia and New Zealand where they are favourites to go and win that you know it's massive.

So it feels massive but also I think some might say overdue. Why is it only happening now? We've been having periods for a very long time. It's amazing, isn't it? It's bizarre when you think, you know, when any of us women are on our periods, you know, why would we pop into the office in white jeans? You know, it's exactly the same for those players. You know, why would you want to really wear white shorts when you're in your place of work, you're going out onto the football pitch? You know, if you're a sort of a heavy menstruating woman, the last thing you want to be stressing and worrying about is, you know, potentially bleeding through your kit.

And, you know, it is extraordinary that it's taken this time and that we're only just chatting about this now in 2023. There is also, which I was very interested in, I was like, hmm, I wonder will they make them for the general public, new leak protection in the shorts as well. Yeah, fascinating stuff. You know, this sort of, you know, this level of technology that we're now seeing in women's sport would have been totally unheard of, like, even just five years ago. When you think back to, you know, British tennis player Heather Watson, when she first spoke about girl things after a defeat at the 2015 Australian Open.

You know, it's extraordinary how far the conversation has changed. Yeah. And I mean, are people talking openly as well about how periods can affect your performance? I'm often in awe of them, of being able to go out there. And I know you can perhaps try and control timings a little bit, but our bodies can be unpredictable. Totally. And I feel that, you know, with the growing profile that women's sport is now enjoying, we saw that with the, you know, it kind of exploded

after the London 2012 Olympics, the advent of, you know, social media. It's giving more female athletes a platform to kind of share their voice, share these issues. And, you know, if you go back to the Euros last summer, it was Beth Mead who I actually caught in the mix zone after England's opening game

at Old Trafford. And, you know, periods and white kit had been in the news because of the Wimbledon stuff and there'd been protests happening outside the gates of the All England Club. So I thought, I said to Beth Mead, I said, you know, is it sort of practical, do you think, to be wearing this white kit? And to her credit, she said, well, no, it really isn't at this time of the month. It can be a bit, you know, be a bit impractical. And she revealed that they'd fed that back to Nike, the kit manufacturer. And sometimes it just takes one woman, one person like Beth to speak up. And suddenly you see this domino effect and, you know, more and more women have gradually started opening up about these issues. Yeah and when you think about that that we became so accustomed to have been one way

and then that one person's action can make a change we'll come to that with my next guest Michaela as well when we talk about climate action but you know as you talk about this what are women telling you about their performance and periods or how they're trying to as we get this like leak protection, for example, in clothing? What else can be done? I think, you know, first and foremost, we need more data. We need more, you know, research into female athlete health. As recent as 2020, only 8% of sports science was dedicated to the female body. And of that 8%, a staggering 6% was only deemed credible enough to be used.

So there's a huge gender data gap when it comes to female athlete health and sports science. And, you know, there's so much we still don't know about the menstrual cycle and how it impacts performance you know we we know from kind of anecdotal reporting from uh female athletes the small body of literature that there is out there um that it does tend to negatively impact athletic performance um you have examples like dina asher smith the british sprinter who only a few months ago opened up about period cramps had derailed one of her races that she had to kind of pull out of. So there's still so much we don't know. And the sooner we kind of close that gender data gap, the better. And you're making me think as well, of course,

you've Dina Asher-Smith, you know, these amazing elite athletes. But we have also been talking when we talk about women in sport about keeping girls, particularly when they go into those teenage years in sport and about the grassroots level and how important it is. And I'm wondering whether shorts with period leak protection, things like that, will become available. Do you know what? It's fascinating, isn't it, to think that that could be the future, you know,

to sort of safeguard girls in PE more and help them enjoy that experience. You know, we all have experiences of teenage girls when we use our period to get out of school. PE is an excuse. But that's what kind of was coming to mind. Yeah, we've all done it. I've been there. And, you know, if you look at cricket, for example, at test level, they still have to wear whites. And I think that will sort of have to be the case going forward because, you know, there's some sort of ruling around having to see the the red test ball that they use at test level cricket however in age grade cricket now we are seeing you know more cricket clubs across the country and in the community game and you know allow

allowing teenage girls and boys to wear coloured bottoms so they do feel that bit more comfortable when they are on the on the cricket pitch. And you touched on the lack of research there on women's health in sport as well I know you write about women's health and women's sport of course extensively and that's why you were on our power list but you have talked about and thought about concussion for women and how it impacts women in sport tell our listeners a little bit about your work in that area. Yeah so I first started writing about female concussion in 2019, just completely by chance, I guess. And it was sort of fascinating what I was discovering,

how, you know, female and male brains are wired differently. There is kind of a growing body of evidence to suggest that women do kind of experience more pronounced concussion symptoms compared to men. Their recovery is generally longer. And just going back to my point about the menstrual cycle, there is kind of some early research to suggest that a woman is more likely to experience a concussion in a contact sport in the second half of her menstrual cycle. And that's, I'm no scientist, but that's due to the sudden drop in the sex hormone progesterone um so you know that's just the tip of the iceberg there's still so much

that we just don't know um and like i said it just goes back to the huge kind of data gap that that exists at the moment and is that what interests you at the moment or are there other areas as well that you know i mean there's, I mean, there's that. And, you know, I've written about urinary stress incontinence, which we often talk about in the context of childbirth and postpartum women who've given birth vaginally. But that can, you know, absolutely impact certain athletes such as trampolinas, gymnastics, due to the amount of pressure they're exerting through their pelvic floor.

You know, that's a big issue. I remember writing about that. And we actually had loads of men comment on the story and said, hang on, this actually happens to me, you know, when I, you know, jump off the trampoline or whatever. Oh, really? Yeah, it was fascinating. Like the story just really took off. It was crazy.

Breast injuries is another one. You know, that's, you know, they're really slipping under the radar in women's sport because in a lot of contact sports such as you know women's six nations is happening at the minute we'll use rugby as an as an example um we often use injury surveillance systems that are built for men designed for men we apply them to a women's context and it's fine because you know it makes sense to do that because it's exactly the same sport but they need a bit of re-digging because you know for guys they might not your breasts aren't in there they might they won't have breast injuries and um you know there's a lot of research coming out of australia actually at the minute about breast injuries in sport um and i think i think some

there was some staggering statistic about um i think it was like 500 female athletes, 36% of them had reported experience of breast injury in a contact sport, but only less than 10% of them actually reported them to a medical or health professional. Why do you think that is? Because they're massively taboo still. You know, we're not, I guess, out of all the things that a sports person can injure, you know, you often think your ankle or your leg or whatever it might be. But because breast injuries aren't deemed as time loss injuries. So, you know, you're not taken out of action because of a dodgy ankle or a dodgy knee, whatever.

They aren't actually part of injury surveillance systems yet. But there is early evidence to suggest that, you know, these women are playing on with kind of injured boobs and they can't move their arms properly or whatever it might be. So interesting. Do you feel, we've covered quite a lot of ground there, do you feel hopeful about the direction women's sport and women's health in sport is going? I do. I think you have to feel optimistic because I think the kind of dial has kind of changed

even so much in a short space of time. You know, like I said earlier with Heather Watson, you know, first mentioning girl things in 2015, you know, now we have football teams at this year's Football World Cup with league protection in their shorts. You know, the often like progress in women's sport can feel a bit glacial sometimes,

but, you know, I am hopeful for the future. Yeah. So good to have you in Fiona Thomas who is one of the women on our power list and if you missed that episode of our programme last Tuesday you can find it on BBC Sounds and you can actually watch the whole thing in full as we raise the roof it is on the Woman's Hour page which you can find there and also clips of our number one woman who is Leah Williamson, England's captain who no doubt also helping

her colleague Beth Mead in this respect as well. Thanks so much. Now, we cannot tackle the climate crisis without addressing social injustice. That's according to activist Michaela Loach in her new book. You might have already heard about Michaela as the climate justice campaigner from Woman's Hour, our planet power list that was back in 2020. And she also took

the government to court over fossil fuel tax breaks. It's not that radical is a guide to climate action that could benefit us all. She says, starting with the people most effective. Good to have you in the studio, Michaela. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Nice to be here in person. Lovely to see you all in pink as well. I was hoping you'd turn up in pink. If anybody has followed you on Instagram or whatever,

they might be used to seeing pink. Is it your favourite colour? Absolutely. It's become a bit of an obsession, but it also makes secondhand shopping so much easier because I literally just go to the pink aisle and I don't look at anything else. And what is it about pink that you love?

I think it just feels like quite a happy colour. I feel like if I'm having a bad day, I just put to the pink aisle and I don't look at anything else. And what is it about pink that you love? I think it just feels like quite a happy colour. I feel like if I'm having a bad day, I just put on a pink outfit and it gives me power. I think that we've often thought of pink as this soft, very femme colour, but I think there can be so much strength in femininity as well. Good. Yeah, I've learnt into that. Good neon pink on the front cover of your book as well.

And I should describe for our listeners, because it is radio, that you have pink glasses, kind of perspex, would that be fair? Pink frames and a pink jumpsuit. And I think pink Doc Martens, did I see at the bottom as well? And pink eyeshadow, I should say as well. More liner, shall I say.

Beautiful. Now, on your Instagram bio, coming back to that, you describe yourself as a climate justice activist, but also a soft black girl. So the first is no surprise, but why the second? I think it's because in this world that kind of wants,

especially people like me, especially black women in particular, to be hardened in order to kind of protect ourselves in a world that was not built for our benefit. I really want to hold on to the soft parts of myself. I think that we get told that like hardness is a strength as if we should just not be phased by anything. But I think that having a heart that's so soft that it breaks, that the reality of the injustice in this world is a strength

and that we shouldn't be wanting to be unfazed. I think we should be phased by the things that happen in this world and that that can be something that we transform into kind of action as well. Do you find it hard to remain soft? Yeah, I think so. I think that there's so much pressure I I think, put on so many of us to harden. And it is an active choice, I think, every day to remain soft to the things in this world. And by that softness, I more mean just being moved and not being rigid. I think that if I see injustice, I want to be moved by it. I

want to cry. Like I want to be hurt in some way so that I can actually transform that energy into something else that can change something about it but it's so interesting you say that because I think for many I think my listeners might agree with me on this that when there is an onslaught of news particularly of bad news it can be you can become desensitized and so then it's difficult to know where to start how to make a change how to have an impact what spurred you to climate activism i really can i really resonate with that i think it can feel super super overwhelming and i don't want people to be desensitized because that's you know doom and despair is not um what we need right now um i think for me i became quite passionate

first about migrant rights and migrant justice um so I think many people will remember I think it was back in 2016 um when the absolutely heartbreaking photo of Alan Kurdi a three-year-old Syrian boy his body washed up on a beach in Greece and as his family just tried to seek safety um and when I saw that photograph it really moved me um and I realized as well that I was also only three years old when I moved to the UK from Jamaica um but I was able to make that journey safely and easily because of the privilege of having a British father so it's literally just luck of who of what we're born with and what privilege that is um and I realized that it was just yeah random luck that

meant that it was I was able to move easily whereas other people end up wash their bodies literally washing up on beaches um and all of that happens because of systems that are put in place in our in particular in the UK our immigration system and in Europe our immigration system um and I think I felt so moved that I wanted to do something to try and change this issue so at first I went to Calais and and volunteered um on the border with France in the UK and just gave like material help like chopping up vegetables and and cooking food and for people material help, like chopping up vegetables and cooking food for people who were displaced there. And it was in Calais that I realised

that changing the world is not actually this dramatically huge thing. It's lots of small actions that very ordinary people do every day. Yeah, because I read that you're putting like a lifestyle perspective onto your climate activism. I mean, what does that mean?

What are you calling for people to do in their everyday lives that won't inspire fear and doom, but give them a sense of purpose? I think when it comes to climate, it's this huge, huge issue. And I think that so many of us feel confused about it because it's such a big issue that's impacting all of us in some way but then we're told that what we should do is like change very very small things in our lives to to tackle it which just feels like this huge disconnect and I think that that leads us to this kind of anxiety or powerlessness because there's obviously like a mismatch that's happening there and so I think that when I talk about what we should do I think it's about how can we actually change the systems that kind of have created a world where we have this kind of climate injustice, where we have this climate crisis, where people are insecure lives.

And a way that we do that is by joining together in movements and in groups. And we do these things together and in greater campaigns. So it's not just about blaming ourselves. It's about how can we work together to create change. So you're talking, though, about another book called It's Not That Radical, but you are talking about radical reform, if I've understood properly. Maybe you'd like to set out your stall for our listeners of how you would see the world functioning ideally with institutions, what that would look like or capitalism. Well, so the title is kind of this like duality of the fact that in the mainstream media, we get told that climate action or the having a world where everyone gets to live in dignity is this like radical ask in the definition kind of meaning ridiculous or really out there or impossible. And I think that we need to reframe what is really

ridiculous. Like I think it's ridiculous that currently we live in a world where the majority of people in this entire world are living in very insecure lives. And whereas there are literally a very, very, very small percentage of the world who are profiting off creating very insecure lives and whereas there are literally a very very very small percentage of the world who are profiting off creating very insecure lives for the majority of people and we should be outraged at those things and not at trying to create a world where we all live in safety and dignity and also that this world where when I say safety and dignity I think the reason I say dignity is because I think that that kind of encompasses so much so many things if you're living in dignity you're able to have secure housing you're able to have water and access to food but If you're living in dignity, you're able to have secure housing, you're able to have water and access to food, but also you're able to have joy and love in your life. And I think that that requires us to move away from our current economic system, which literally exists to just make as

much profit as possible. And therefore, it's kind of a race to the bottom and almost a competition of who can exploit more in order to make more profit. And that's what's prioritised. And I think instead, we should have a world in which the lives that we're able to live is what we're prioritising rather than just profit being held in the hands of a few. So it is sounding incredibly idealistic. Do you really think that a society could transform to that vision that you have within your lifetime? Now, I know you're young, I believe you're 25 years of age. But still, I mean, these are structures that are so ingrained. Do you expect to change capitalism on its head?

Yeah. What am I doing? What am I doing if I don't believe that? And also, I think it's really important for us to challenge what we believe is possible, because I think that us believing these things are not possible is what's holding us back. And that there is actually a huge benefit of the status quo in making us believe that these things are impossible that these are ridiculous demands or these are not possible at all when it actually we look at the past how much has changed in in our lifetimes how much has changed in our in our grandparents lifetimes so so many transformations

have happened in society and in our world and we must just continue to push for more and demand more and i mean i looked i was living in was living in Colombia during the last election there. And Colombia is a country that had 200 years of elite rules. They had 200 years of uber-capitalist, like Western kind of controlled government that only kind of existed for the profits of a few and not for the many people in Colombia. And through the power of the people,

so through like the people who are most marginalized in society, through the black community in Colombia, through the indigenous community in Colombia and the working classes in Colombia, they came together and they said, we are going to transform this country. We are going to change everything. And now they managed to elect after 200 years of elite rule. They now have a government which represents the people where the vice president is Francia Marquez. She is an incredible Afro-Colombian woman. She's been an activist since she was 13 years old she's the vice president of colombia now gustavo petro who was an organizer

and activist for his whole life those two people are now a part of a bigger movement that is leading that country and that's only because of people coming together and ordinary people as well and i suppose that is through democracy right that is through their voting system is that the path that you see for change i i think that if we want to make these changes, they have to be democratic in the sense that people have to be behind them. That's my perspective. But I think the way that we do that is to actually try and like really build power so that we can influence that system. So in Colombia, for example, they weren't waiting around or hoping for the existing kind of parties or existing systems to work for them.

Instead, they were building power in their communities so they could put pressure on so that there would be popular support of a new Colombia and a new world. Interesting. Also, that thought from your book, a concept of the idea of people being good or bad is unhelpful. And I think it's an interesting one to think about when you talk about that intersectionality, be it about social justice or for immigration or people that are migrating or indeed climate action. Is there no good or bad people?

I think that my issue with this whole like good or bad or this kind of binary as if either everyone is either in the good zone or in the bad zone is it just ignores the reality of the world. Like there's so much more nuance than that. I use an example in the book of like Winston Churchill, for example, is who I think is a very topical person because people either want to see him as wholly good or wholly bad. When the reality is, is that people have done a lot of different things. Yes, he was involved with winning the war effort in Europe, but he was also involved with a mass famine of six million people in India. And so those two things can coexist at the same time. But I think we have this idea of historical figures that either they were wholly good or wholly bad. And that means that we look at ourselves

and we are too scared of stepping out of either zone and being put into the bad zone, for example, and ousted from our community, that we don't even try and challenge what we think about the world or how we act. And I think that the world that we're building is dependent upon so many people changing their minds on things. And so we have to create, I think, environments where people are able to do that.

So do you think a fossil fuel company could have parts of good in it as well? I think that where that comes in is that I'm not saying we evade accountability at all. I think that that's what I'm saying. And I think also a company is not a person. That's another thing. I think that too often we like personify companies. I mean, in the US constitution, like companies are seen as having the same rights as people, which is completely ridiculous. But for us, a few companies, not a person. And whilst there will be, I'm sure there are people in there that mean well,

their impact that they're having is beyond grave. And I think that it's not about saying that they're right. So you're very hopeful. You did take the government to court over subsidies paid to oil and gas companies, but lost. And I was more wondering with that aspect, what made you keep going? Or kind of where do you find your inspiration? Well, I think in that case in particular,

it was the fact that the government give like huge tax breaks to oil and gas companies and have given many public payments of our like public money that should be being used for public good to these companies and whilst in we lost on like the legal argument that it was unlawful and for them to do that the judge said that it was lawful for them to give tons of our public money to oil and gas companies which i think we should be kind of outraged about um we were actually able to put this on public record by talking about it and having it in a legal case. Because beforehand, the government had denied that there were these negative tax years. But in a court of law, they're forced to actually admit the truth.

And so I think that we have to see everything as like it's a longer game than just like a longer struggle than just what's happening right now. I think of, for example, with the Cambodian oil field, that was an oil field that we managed to stop being approved and that was only in six months we managed to make that happen and that might seem like this like huge sudden win but I see all these kind of movements as like mycelium like mushrooms so um mycelium I know you have a thing for mushrooms yeah I do because it's amazing because mycelium is like millions of it is under the ground everywhere wherever we're walking around we might not see it but those connections are growing Because it's amazing because mycelium is like millions of it is under the ground everywhere. Wherever we're walking around, we might not see it, but those connections are growing constantly and they're building. And then one day a mushroom will pop up somewhere and we'll think that was a miracle that came out of nowhere.

Oh, my gosh, I just found this amazing mushroom. But we don't see the mycelium that we're growing underground. And I think that that's how change happens, really. It's like so many ordinary, wonderful people are growing those mycelium networks underground. We might not see them. And one day there'll be a wind that is like this amazing mushroom. But we have to be like willing to build the mycelium networks as well and not just be like focusing on the mushrooms. Hopefully not get poisoned.

Yeah, exactly. Keeping the mushroom analogy going. But, you know, I know with some of your actions, you took direct action, right? Which can really bug some people. Some people are really in favour of it. But whether it's, you know, tying yourself to a particular structure or getting in the way. And some people would say stopping them getting to work or stopping emergency vehicles. And, you know, you do run the risk of alienating a substantial portion of the population that you're trying to convince to your way. So the actions that I was involved with

were always very targeted at the government and the oil and gas industry. So I was involved with blocking outside of the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategies, outside of Westminster Abbey. And that was to raise awareness of these kind of fossil fuel subsidies

that we then later on took the government to court around and in that instance it was very focused and I think that direct action has a place and I think the place is it being focused on causing disruption to the right people and to the right targets I think that if we look at past movements like direct action has been a huge part of it I'm a Jamaican British woman my like right to vote in the UK was was won by direct action by women and i'm going to see sylvia the musical soon very excited um to learn more about that um and also my rights to be able to be free were fought by people in jamaica who by enslaved people who fought back i think we get taught as if like um the emancipation was handed down from above and that did not happen

like people had to fight for it and so I think that it's important that we remember that direct action is an important tactic within that. Emily's got in touch saying she's loving your voice and message. Before I let you go, you are a black woman in climate justice world. Briefly, how is that? It's not the easiest. There are too few of us, I think. And one of my greatest hopes with the work that I do is that I can inspire more people to know that,

especially for the black community, we have the most to lose or the most to gain with how this crisis is tackled. The whole book is basically about the fact that the world as it is now persevering or being preserved is not the best that we can hope for. Climate justice actually offers us a world where we can have a better world. It's not just about saving my birth country of Jamaica, it's about transforming the living conditions that people in Jamaica are able to live and of the diaspora, but also the majority of people. And so I think that there is so much that we, especially as black women, can bring to this movement and bring to this space and our perspective is so important. And so whilst I have had difficult times there are also incredible groups that are starting up like black girl environmentalist and many others um that are really championing for us and because

we've been we've been at the forefront of these movements for so many generations um and i'm glad that now people are starting to pay attention to our voices michaela loach her new book it's not that radical thanks so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. Thank you for having me. Now, I want to turn to women affected by the state pension age changes. They have scored what's been held as a major victory in the legal challenge

for more compensation. The government watchdog conceded that part of the investigation into how increases to the state pension age were communicated that it was flawed and must be reconsidered. It means the parliamentary and health service ombudsman, PHSO, conclusions about compensation for the affected women will also be considered. Now, the WASPI campaign, do you know what that stands for? The Women Against State Pension Inequality.

They represent the 3.6 million women who, lots of cases got only 12 months notice of a six-year increase to their state pension age. So you can imagine you've already decided you're not going to be working and then this news comes through. I am joined by Angela Madden who's the chair of WASPI. Welcome Angela, how are you feeling this morning? Fine, thank you, Lola. Well, are you seeing it as a major victory? We are, yes. It's at this stage in the process, if you like, it's the best that we could have hoped for. We'd taken a judicial review out against the Ombudsman's second report. And of course, if we had to wait for that to go to court, we might have been heard July maybe or September, then it would have taken two

months for the judge to bring down his judgment us agreeing with the ombudsman that the report is flawed and it can be rewritten we've sort of saved a good six months off the process i think okay and for people that are coming fresh to this story you would have been impacted by this. Can you explain that for our listener? Yes, it's women born in the 1950s. We were subject to the very first state pension age changes that the governments put in. It was decided in 1995 that women's state pension age would be equalised with men. So we'd go up to 65 and then they put both up to 66 um all fine and good up to then but they should have actually told us they never informed us about changes to our state pension age until like you say sometimes one year maybe one and a half or

two years before a great big hike so even though that law was changed in 95 the first communications didn't go out until 2009 and that's 14 years lost of opportunities for women in like me to have saved made some sort of difference not taken some of the decisions we took thinking we were retiring at 60 and so that's what it's all about so what are you looking for exactly we're looking for compensation um to the tune of well the government in total saved 200 billion pounds by taking that pension away from women and we're looking for some of that back and it's not up to us really to decide how much compensation but each woman expected 40 40 000 pounds or so on their state on their pensions income that they just didn't get um

because the government uh decided they weren't going to get it so the government really need to think about how much of that money is going to come back to us. So they are going to review exactly the way their investigation was carried out, the PHSO. Where do you expect to go from here? How hopeful are you and what sort of timeline

are you looking at? Because I think that's really important. I was struck by one line that, you know, you have people that are in this fight that have died since this started yes yes one woman one woman of our age dies every 13 minutes um so all this is about life expectancy increasing but you know we're thinking well is it really and there are some stalls now for people of our age especially um But yes, we want to get it resolved as quickly as possible. We're hoping that that will be, well, the ombudsman should start rewriting phase two report, then he'll have to come up with a new remedies report recommending that we should get compensation.

So that should definitely, I think, be sorted out in the next three to six months. So perhaps by the end of this year, we should have it resolved. I mean, politicians, I think, really need to sit up and take notice. We've been fighting this campaign now for seven years. I think they're all hoping we'll either die off or go away or shut up or get on with our knitting. Well, we're not going to. This is important to us. They need to walk in our shoes for a week or two and then they'd know how important it was to us.

Angela Madden, the chair of WASPI, Women Against State Pension Inequality. Thanks so much for coming on. And we will, of course, continue following your story. We did contact the Department for Work and Pensions for a statement. A spokesperson said the government decided 25 years ago it was going to make the state pension age the Department for Work and Pensions for a statement. A spokesperson said the government decided 25 years ago it was going to make the state pension age the same for men and women. Both the High Court

and the Court of Appeal have supported the actions of the DWP under successive governments dating back to 1995 and the Supreme Court refused the claimant's permission to appeal. Let us turn to a series we've been bringing you. Over the last couple of weeks,

we've been talking about narcissistic mothers. You can catch up with those previous episodes via BBC Sounds. There's also an article about them on the Woman's Hour website. A narcissist is someone whose belief in their own importance causes them to act in a way that is damaging to others through controlling, belittling or manipulating behaviour. Now Scarlett, not her real name, is 40. She took the decision to cut all communication with her mother after coming to the conclusion that the relationship was not what it should be. Anna Miller went to talk to Scarlett at her home and asked about her early life. My childhood was very busy and chaotic. I grew up in a family with lots of siblings who were a fair bit older than me and as time went on I became the only person left

in the household along with my parents. The reason we're here is because you believe your mum is a narcissistic mother. So where does that come from from that comes from starting to be treated very differently to my other siblings I think it was because she maybe lost control of everyone else in their family because they were adults and I was the only person left that she could control I feel as if there was a huge weight that I had to please her and I had to mediate and I had to carry out that role. I was also very as I now know parentified and that means that I would carry out adult tasks so I knew my parents bank account number for a very young age say around 10. I knew a lot of their personal information because I had neat writing so I'd

fill out all of their forms I know children do chores I understand that but it would be like above and beyond you know I would do the ironing for like my siblings and my dad for us for the week and I would get up in the morning to make sure our uniforms were dry and and I was about 12 or 13 at this point. And they're all older than you? Correct. Correct, yes. All of them are older than me, yes. You said to me at one point you realised at a young age you had a funny relationship with your mum. So I could tell you the mood that my mum would be in

by the way that she wore her hair that day. I could tell you the footsteps of every single member of my family. You're on high alert constantly because you're ready to put yourself in survival mode. A very standout moment for me was when I was 14. I had gone with my mum to visit siblings and my mum very much didn't like the fact that I was spending time with them and not her. She took me on my own, she took me around the back of a supermarket and she called me a bitch and that's when I realised that there was something different about my relationship with her. What was going on in your head? There was a lot of confusion but I never actually questioned it though. I just went along with it because my mum told me I was something and there's an implicitness with your

parents isn't there that you just believe it. It made me think that I was a terrible person. Is it still in your head? Yes 100%. Describe how you felt when you were younger in five words definitely felt guilty responsible um worthless very much felt worthless and um anxious very anxious as a teenager incredibly anxious what was the guilt you were feeling? I think the guilt and the responsibility are very much linked. I always felt guilty that even as a child that maybe I wasn't doing enough to contribute to the family. There's an instance that I can remember where I had a purple bowling bag for Christmas that I had chosen and then I really really liked it I thought it was the business and my mum would always go on about how nice it was and how lovely

it was and in the end I relented and gave it to her because I thought well she thinks it's so nice it'll make her happy I'll give it to her and I was I felt guilty for having it and she didn't and she ruined it yeah and she ruined it so the guilt and the obligation there the guilt that I felt that she didn't have the purple bag and then the obligation from me to give it to her and she took it and she took it she didn't say oh no it wasn't oh no and it wasn't even oh we'll share or... How old were you? 17. Right. Another one is as a family went through a period where money was very, very, very tight.

I mean incredibly tight. But my mum used to enjoy, she would enjoy going out on a Friday night with her friends. So I would save up my dinner money and then on the Friday I'd go here's the money that I saved up from the week for my dinner money for you to go out but again she didn't say no she didn't say you shouldn't have done it she went out she took it and went out. And being devil's advocate was it all to do with your mother or was that the personality that you had developed also contributed to this? Do you see what I'm trying to say? I know what you're saying I think it's very much taking advantage of someone's kind nature. So where were your siblings when all this was happening? One of my siblings had a family another sibling was at university

other siblings because of their age they'd moved out so they weren't there anyway and then my other siblings were just out with friends and I was in the house on my own. Did no one confide in each other? No no it was never spoken about that's how I was treated and that's it. And where was your father? My dad worked a lot and then when he was home, it was just very much the traditional, he'd get in, have his tea, watch telly, go to bed. My mum walked me to school until the day I left at 18. My mum would know our lunch times, but she would turn up at the exact time I would be outside the chip shop eating my

chips with my friends you know she'd interfere like your conversations so what would she do she would just slide along and say hi it would be a oh god they're scarlet's mum and she would come up and she'd be like well I read your lips and you said oh god they's scarlet's mum and then i would then feel awkward so she was eliminating them from my life because they wouldn't want to hang out with me shall we say because scarlet's mum meets her for lunch so control was huge for you yes as a teenager and that has impacted me for the rest of my life. In what way? That I ended up in a controlling relationship that I had to leave.

Thinking control is love. So thinking, hey, my mum controlled me because she was my mum, that was love. So when I was looking for a partner, that's what I would associate. So I would associate control with love and then it's impacted everything in regards to personal relationships since that's huge yeah absolutely and it took a while to recognize that's what it is and was you didn't have children because of what you went through correct why because I didn't want to have children because of what you went through? Correct. Why? Because I didn't want to have children and turn into my mum and have the behaviours of my mum

and project that onto any children that I may have had. Because if I did that and realised that I'd done it, I'd be devastated and I would never want to put any child through what I went through. Talking about the cutting off yes what was the moment? The moment was a takeaway. So I ordered a takeaway for me and my mum because she'd been feeling poorly bearing in mind this is my mum's absolute favorite takeaway in the entire world she just sat there and went oh this is disgusting and it was that point that I was like I don't want to speak to her ever again and I never did she was attacking my kindness in that situation and I was like I don't need you to do that anymore

I've yeah I that was it. That was like, yeah, I'm done. Yeah, and I know it sounds, no, I'm not going to invalidate it by saying it sounds trivial because it doesn't, but it just takes one thing, doesn't it, for people to go, that's it, yeah, yeah, no more. And you took your curry with you and left?

Correct. Birthdays, Christmases came and went. Mother's Day. Yeah. It is an adjustment, but I'm quite stubborn, so I'm just like, well, I'm just going to get through it. Then I'm like... Were you devastated?

No. There was no sadness in it at all. I feel like I want you to be devastated. There's something about a mother. I get why you want me to be devastated I get that she wasn't a member to me anyway if you really listen to what I've just said that's not what a member does is it that's not a member's behavior so I wasn't devastated at all have you grieved yes that was a big process and it was important to do it as well grieving the loss of the mem that i

never had but wanted you're still in contact with your siblings are they on eggshells are they like oh sorry can't mention mum what what how does it work they will talk about mum and i'm like well that's okay because she's still part of their life if i don't want to be part of the conversation or don't want the conversation i I will ask them to stop or I'll remove myself from the situation. What was their reaction when you turned up and you said, our mum's a narcissist? Each sibling is different.

Some of them have just acknowledged that that's how I feel about her. We don't really talk about it and that's okay it's not a dismissal it's a just that's how you've dealt with it you don't talk to her I talk to her fine one sibling argued it and said it wasn't true and that she can't have been abusive because she was our mum and because I don't want to force anything on to people because it's my journey and my trauma should we say I've gone all right okay I know that you don't understand how is she has she reached out to you has she asked you what's going on what what's been the communication the communication is that she's tried to contact me

via family members gifts birthday cards christmas cards christmas presents what she did once which really shocked me because i blocked her via the phone and because i'm not on social media she wouldn't be able to find me that way she actually borrowed someone else's phone and rang me off their number and because I didn't know who it was I answered I felt violated because she had gone to such great lengths to get in contact with me even though the boundary was there for her to not contact me like my eyes are like just popping because you feel violated in And in my head, I think, God, she's really making an effort to reach out. Isn't that love?

No. No, I'd have to massively disagree with that. But you felt very manipulative. And is the door ever open? Is this it for the rest of her life, your life? Absolutely, yeah. You seem to be thriving. Yeah, thank you.

Yeah. It's okay to not have people in your life that don't support you or that aren't your cheerleaders or treat you the way that, like, my mum treated me. And it was the best thing that I ever did. Just because they're your mum or your dad or your caregiver or whatever, if they're not a nice person, you don't need them in your life do you meet other people who've experienced the same thing as you no that's not something that I want to do because for me this

isn't competitive so I don't actively seek this out I know a lot of people go on to groups and that's just not my thing. I'm dealing with this the best way for me because it's quite trendy. You're nodding in agreement. Like a worry of mine is that because it is so trendy at the moment and I think people are throwing around the word narcissist like confetti right now but they're not really understanding what it means I am worried that the whole trendiness around it invalidates the people who have suffered at the hands of like a narcissistic parent it is a heavy word so to make light of it I don't think is the best thing and of course that is Enna Miller speaking to Scarlett not her real name and as we've made clear the stories we've heard so far have been from the point of view

of the daughters involved. We have been contacted by some listeners who've been labelled a narcissist by their children and they've been devastated by it. So that's part of this story as well that we want to talk about. So if it's your experience, we'd love to hear from you.

The text is 84844 or you can email us through our website. Let me see, Fiona texted us. She said, I cannot thank you enough for highlighting the issue of narcissistic mothers. or you can email us through our website. Let me see, Fiona texted us. She said, I cannot thank you enough for highlighting the issue of narcissistic mothers. Mine threatened suicide when she needed attention. That went on for nearly 30 years. When I finally raised it with a friend

for the first time at 40 years old, it was life changing. She died last year and completely cut me out of her will because I finally broke the spell. It has felt taboo for years. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

And thank you, Fiona, for getting in touch. Now, if you're a regular listener to Woman's Hour, you might remember that at the end of last year, we spoke to Jackie Moulton. She may be best known for being the real life inspiration behind the character of DCI Jane Tennyson in Prime Suspect. She broke down gender barriers in policing and now has two master's degrees and an honorary doctorate. But despite all that, she's still upset that she failed her 11 plus exam. And she says it impacted her decades on. This morning, we're speaking to someone who had a rejection also in their youth, but and had impact for decades. But in a good way. I was asking you if you ever had a rejection that was their youth and had impact for decades. But in a good way.

I was asking you if you ever had a rejection that was a blessing in disguise. Text 84844. Here's a couple of messages I saw. Let me see. I was rejected. This is Hilary. I was rejected from all five

of my university choices in 1976. I ended up going to the newly established drama course in Aberystwyth and met my husband, Ian. He might be surprised to hear that that was the best thing to happen to me. And we're happily together for nearly 44 years. Here's Sarah. When I was at school, I was desperate to be a physiotherapist, but rejected due to poor A-level results.

So I went into nursing. It was the best thing that happened to me. I loved every minute of it. Here's to poor A-level results! Exclamation point. I can see my guest Alison Kinnaird is smiling at that. She was rejected by Edinburgh Art School when she applied.

She's now one of the leading glass engravers in the world and has been commissioned, among many other things, to make a wedding present for the then Prince Charles and Lady Diana Spencer. Her art currently features in the permanent collection of the Scottish Parliament and Royal Collections. She does say that getting rejected was the best thing that ever happened to her. Why, Alison? And welcome. Nice to be with you. Yes, I'm sure it was the best thing because,

you know, when you're at school, all the life choices are not presented to you. You're certainly not aware of all the different avenues you could take at that point. And I knew definitely that I wanted to do something creative. You know, I was very good at art at school. I was always making things. My art teachers were very encouraging. Mr. and Mrs. Henderson were lovely to me. So I think of them very fondly. And when I sat the entrance test for Edinburgh Art College and was rejected, it certainly was a bit of a blow. You know, it was unexpected and I really didn't know what I wanted to do after that. But you went to a studio, I believe, in Forres that kind of began to put you on this other path

that has, of course, made you a world-class glass engraver. Well, in between that, I mean, I went to, I decided to pursue the other subjects that I was interested in. So I I did I started a degree in Celtic studies and archaeology instead and that was fascinating but doesn't really qualify you for anything and when I was on holiday up in the north of Scotland in Forres it was a wet day and there was a little article in the local paper about a glass engraver's studio that was open and my family and I said oh well let's go and see what this guy does and it was a lovely man called Harold Gordon and he saw some drawings that I'd been doing while I was on holiday and said

you know these would look good in glass why don't you come and work with me for the summer and that was how I started off being introduced to glass and I think that many artists and crafts people are drawn to one particular medium and certainly I had never thought of you know entering anything to do with glass so to be introduced to it by a lovely man called Harold Gordon who was a terrific terrific glass engraver himself, just introduced me to the potential that was there to express yourself in a completely different way. You know, one piece I found really striking, some people might know it, it's called Unknown. It's a glass army lit up with these LED structures as well as you place them and it kind of gives you an idea of the innovation the imagination that you were able to bring to glass engraving where do

those ideas come from well the engraving itself what I do is copper wheel engraving and that's a really ancient technique I mean you wouldn't believe it but the Babylonians used something similar. We just have an electric motor now to power the little lathe that drives the the spindles with wheels on them that we use and so it's a very old technique but you can use modern technology in conjunction with it. And I found that introducing light into my work has been very, very important because it really shows up the engraving for a start, but you can see a lot of different things with it. And that Glass Army was a piece that I produced myself.

It was really to talk about how fragile life is in time of war. And Glass seemed the ideal medium to comment on that. It's comprised of about 60 figures. Some of them are soldiers. Most of them are soldiers. And then some are civilian figures as well, because war doesn't just affect the military. And it toured around Scotland. It started off in the Scottish Parliament

and then went to about 25 different venues, including National Trust properties and so on. You know, when you look up your name, Alison, of course the engraving comes up, but also, you know, that you're this huge exponent of the Scottish harp as well. Some people might be wondering how you are so multi-talented and also what was Edinburgh Art School doing rejecting you?

But apart from that, that's a number of decades down the line. You've obviously done wonderful in your career. Do you, I don't know, do you gravitate towards the music or the engraving or is it all part of the same expression of your, I suppose, artistic abilities? Well, the two things have kind of run parallel throughout my life. And I mean, I was lucky because I fell quite by accident into two areas which were really quite neglected. You know, when I started playing Scottish harp, because I loved the music, you know, traditional music is my thing. There were maybe six people playing the harp in Scotland,

in public. And that's changed completely now. I mean, the harp scene is very, very wide in Scotland, there's a lot of people playing and a number of harp makers who are very busy making harps. So that's nice to see that. In contrast to that, engraving is dying out. We're on the red list of endangered crafts because wheel engraving is one of those things that's not being taught at art colleges. And it's just dying out. It's so sad to hear that. I am going to point people to an article on you, Alison Kinnard,

which is on the BBC website, so they can learn a little bit more about the skills that you have. Who knows? Sometimes these things do get a revival if people point out that they are on the way out. I want to thank you so much for joining us today on Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Hello, I'm Lucy Worsley, and I want to tell you about Lady Killers. Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I am re-examining the crimes committed by murderesses in the past through the eyes of 21st century feminists. What can we learn from these women? And would it be any different today? Lady Killers. Listen first on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.