Woman's Hour - What a second lockdown means for pregnant women, The future of flexible working, The history of the biscuit, Outdoor learning

Episode Date: November 5, 2020

We’ve just started a second lockdown in England – with other parts of the United Kingdom also going through variations of the same. But what if you’re pregnant? What’s going through your mind and what are you concerned about? As the pandemic’s gone on, we’ve heard about women being on their own for scans, deliveries and sadly, miscarriages too. And an enquiry has just started into a rise in stillbirths over the last Lockdown. Chloe discusses the issues with Bertie Harlev-Lam, Executive Director for Professional Leadership at the RCM ,also a working midwife, and Jo Mountfield, Vice President of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists in Southampton, and a consultant obstetrician at University Southampton Hospital. Has the Covid crisis helped to usher in a future of flexible working? A new report from the campaign Flex Appeal says while that forced remote working during a pandemic is not the same as flexible working, there are lessons that can be learned from lockdown. They have surveyed more than a thousand employers about how their work has changed since March, and which aspects their employees are keen to keep longer-term. Chloe is joined by Anna Whitehouse aka Mother Pukka who co-founded Flex Appeal, and Louise Deverell-Smith who runs Daisy Chain, an online platform that matches flexible employers with flexible job-seekers. How did the humble biscuit become so embedded in our culture? Lizzie Collingham’s book The Biscuit: The History of a Very British Indulgence explains how it began as the foodstuff of explorers, then, sweetened, found its way into the recipe books of ladies of the manor and finally becoming our customary snack with a cup of tea. Chloe talks to Lizzie about the stories of women involved in biscuit production through the ages and asks her the all-important question: to dunk or not to dunk?What is a forest school and what are the benefits and challenges of outdoor learning? Can it re-engage children after the broken learning of the pandemic? Chloe discusses the issues with Sara Collins, Deputy Chair of the Forest School Association and founder of the Nature Premium campaign, which is calling for ring-fenced funding for schools to provide nature-based learning. She’s joined by Dr Rowena Passy, Senior Research Fellow at the University of Plymouth’s Institute for Education.Presented by Chloe Tilley Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Beverley Purcell

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is the Woman's Hour podcast for Thursday the 5th of November. Good morning, and I appreciate, especially if you're in England, but across the UK we are in challenging times. But we're here to give some advice, to give some reassurance this morning, particularly to pregnant women. More on that in a moment. We're also going to be talking about how COVID-19 has resulted in many of us working from home. So has the pandemic forced in an era of flexible working? Also, one of the women suggested for our power list this year, Sarah Collins, Deputy Chair of the Forest School Association. She's going to be with us. She believes outside learning could be the key

to re-engaging children with learning after months away from school. And also, we're going to be speaking to a woman who's written a book about our relationship with the humble biscuit. Yep, you heard me right. There's even a section on what I have to say I consider to be quite an underrated biscuit,

the Gary Boldy. And quite frankly, if that doesn't encourage you to stick around over the next 45 minutes, I'm not sure what will. But as I say, you know, it's a tough day, isn't it? For lots of people in England, across the UK, we're beginning a second lockdown. But if you're pregnant and you saw the restrictions imposed during the first lockdown, it can be even more worrying. And we've heard from women having to be alone during scans, during deliveries, and sadly, miscarriages as well. So what's it going to be like this time round? Let's speak to Bertie Harlef-Lam, who is Executive Director for Professional Leadership at the Royal College of Midwives. She also works as a midwife in Hertfordshire. Also with us is Jo Mountfield,

Vice President of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists in Southampton and is also a consultant obstetrician at University Hospital in Southampton. Thank you both for being with us this morning. And of course, this isn't just an issue for England. There are variations of restrictions across the UK. But Joe, if someone is listening to this, if they're pregnant, if your partner's pregnant, a a member of your family particularly for people who are going through a first pregnancy the prospect of antenatal care birth during a second lockdown is going to be worrying for people what would you say to somebody in that position who's listening to our conversation now so i firstly say uh i would like to acknowledge that is yes a very anxious time uh for mums uh even uh when

we're not going through a pandemic having your first baby uh can provoke some anxieties but i really want to reassure uh women that maternity services are absolutely uh open for business and we are carrying out our antenatal care in the safest and best way possible for mothers and when they come in to have their babies and postnatally. So yes, there have been some changes to how services work, but I can really want to reassure any pregnant mum that they will get high quality safe care across the whole of the UK. Maternity services everywhere are working really hard to ensure that that is the case. Well, let's talk about some of those changes. Bertie, maybe you could give us an example.

If a woman was coming into a hospital for a scan during this second lockdown, would they, for example, be able to have their partner with them? Yes. So we know that there's been a lot of anxiety for women, particularly where services have had to put some restrictions in place around scans. And we do know that some of these restrictions will have to be put back in place or remain in place in some places. What I think is really important to explain is that absolutely this is not what maternity services want. This is not how we want to deliver care. However, in order to keep everyone safe, mothers, babies and staff, of course,

there are situations where it's just not possible to have a partner with the woman in the scan room. For example, some really old buildings where the scan rooms are really, really small and there's no windows or ventilation. It isn't possible to do social distancing and actually it wouldn't be safe to have a partner. Whereas in a newer building with a bigger room with good ventilation, it's much easier to open that up to have partners present. The other thing that's really important is that maternity services don't sit in isolation. They are part of a bigger hospital and in many cases share waiting areas, for example, with children's services

where you may have very unwell children and therefore it's not possible to share those areas. But I think what I want to say is where midwives, where maternity services absolutely can, they will do their best to have partners present in as many situations as possible, because that is how we want to deliver services. I mean, the worry is, and anyone who's had a scan, who's been pregnant, who's given birth, knows, I remember this when I went for my first scan,

you just want to hear those words that everything is okay. And if you do receive the news that there is a problem that's been detected with your baby at a scan, are you saying that some women might have to done in a way that enables partners to be present, if not at the very beginning, but certainly as soon as possible to get them in to be with that woman. The other thing services are doing, if women are contacting a maternity service because they're worried about maybe bleeding or they're not sure that something's quite right with their pregnancy. In those circumstances, most services would absolutely go out of their way to make sure that they see that woman with her partner present, if at all possible. We know how difficult this is. And absolutely, we want to make sure that we can look after women and relieve some of their anxiety and do the best we can for them. Jo, if you're going in to give birth during lockdown, can you explain what will be different? Do we know yet?

Well, the actual process of going in, of course, people are going to check around whether somebody's got any symptoms of coronavirus. And what we do advise women to do when they are thinking about they're planning their birth is to think about if their partner was unfortunate enough to have symptoms of coronavirus or contracted around the time of the birth think about having another birth partner to call on as a backup plan because in all services partners or birth partners are going to be encouraged to come in with women because we know that's the safest way for women to be supported during their labour and birth so it's really important to have your birth partner with you so have a backup plan just in case that doesn't

happen and unfortunately your partner happens to be unwell at that particular time because of course for the safety of mother baby and the both the staff and other mothers and babies in the unit we can't allow um partners who are not well uh to come in with um their loved ones uh even even under those circumstances because we have to put safety first of course and everyone would expect that but it will be a huge relief to people knowing that if they are going to be giving birth during this next month, that they will be able to have a birth partner with them, which is obviously so important when you're there. And, you know, you need that reassurance, don't you? Jo, I also want to ask you about this, because the Healthcare Safety Investigation Branch is looking into a rise in stillbirths between April and June. There were 40 stillbirths after labour began, that compared with 24 in the same period last year.

Some people will inevitably ask, is that linked to the pandemic? Do we know? I think the simple answer is no, we don't know yet. Clearly, that is a worry and it does need to be investigated further, which is why the HCIB, the Health Safety Investigation Branch, are undertaking that work. But you can just have a blip in figures from within a few months. And this may simply be that. And so I don't think we can actually have any firm conclusions about this at the moment. There needs to be some more work around it to look into whether um there has been a genuine increase in stillbirths or whether this is simply a blip in the figures so i don't want women to be really anxious about this what i would

say to anybody who's pregnant who has any concerns about the well-being of their baby or indeed themselves is to if you've got a concern please contact the maternity unit especially if that involves um and the baby not moving as it normally as he or she normally should please contact your maternity unit all women will have a number that they can contact in the in these sorts of situations and so please don't hesitate to come to come forward because previously there was some of that in the first wave where we knew women weren't contacting their maternity services because of some of those anxieties. So we want to encourage women to please be in touch if you've got any worries. And understandable anxieties, but at the same time, as you say, so important if there are any changes in the movement, particularly with your baby. Bertie, you're obviously working with pregnant women every day.

Are you finding that that message is getting through and that people are confident to come in and get checked over if they have any worries? It's certainly a message that, as midwives, we are giving to women all the time. We are telling them that maternity services are open. Absolutely, midwives are still seeing women and we are having those conversations regularly to make sure that they are absolutely aware that they need to contact us if they have any concerns.

We are speaking to women as much as we possibly can. We are also at the Royal College of Midwives. have got some information on our website for women questions and answers so if they have any concerns they can have a look on there about what they want to do if so for example if the baby's not moving or if they're having a little bit of bleeding but absolutely any concerns as Jo has already said the smallest thing you're not sure about pick up the phone and speak to your midwife and Jo what is it going to be like as an environment? I mean, it can be a worrying time. It's a hugely exciting time, obviously, when you're in labour. Will you be able to have a partner with you during labour if you're induced or indeed post-birth during this lockdown? So there is some variation across the country as to whether partners are invited in right from the process of induction of labour.

And also there are some restrictions in some areas on postnatal wards. And that is very much dependent on what's going on in that local area and what the service is able to provide. So I can't tell you the answer for every single maternity service. And that is, again, a question to pose to your midwife or if you have an obstetrician to be talking to your obstetrician about. But services are doing absolutely the most they can to ensure that partners are able to come into those services and support women throughout the day. And many services now have got testing in place and are allowing partners to stay into the postnatal wards and are also able to support partners being there when someone is having an induction of labour. But it is not universal. And I would encourage women who have some anxieties about that

to check with their local service just so that they know and they can prepare themselves as to what is going to happen to them when they get to that point in their pregnancy. It's keeping that line of communication open, isn't it, the whole way through? Absolutely. Listen, thank you both so much for giving that information, really important information there this morning.

You heard there from Jo Mountfield, Vice President of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists in Southampton. Also Bertie Harlev-Lam, who is Executive Director for Professional Leadership at the Royal College of Midwives. Now, for many people in work, the COVID-19 pandemic has thrust them into working from home. And, you know, for some, it's great. It gives you flexibility. It's got a better work-life balance. But there is an element of being forced to work from home. And that can,

of course, have a detrimental effect on our mental health. But has the Covid crisis helped to usher in a future of flexible working? Let's speak now to Anna Whitehouse, a.k.a. Mother Pucker, who founded Flex Appeal. Also with us is Louise Deverell-Smith, who runs Daisy Chain. That's an online platform that matches flexible employers with flexible job seekers. Great to have you both with us this morning. Anna, I know that your organisation did a report into this forced remote working. Just tell us what you found in this report. Yeah, so the report is called Forever Flex, flexible working beyond a crisis. And it's really to harness the point that we're not currently

working from home. this is not flexible working we're in our homes working in the context of a pandemic with child care responsibilities I mean my husband and I did the maths you know there's often eight hours of working perhaps three hours of home schooling if your children are off 12 hours of child care that's been 23 hours in a 24 hour day you know I'm not really into the maths on this, but that doesn't sound great. So we're sort of, you know, we are really trying to focus on the fact that what we're seeing right now is not flexible working, but we can harness the momentum. We have like a generational opportunity to change the way we work right now. And where is it working? And the Forever Flex

report, which was funded by Sir Robert McAlpine and driven by social change agency Claremont, has managed to pull together. I think the best way to describe is top trump cards of the how specific examples from specific companies, public and private sector, small, large, medium companies. How can we use and wield the current situation to our advantage moving forward? So, yes, I think to your point, we found a moment we're working in fake flex. People are burning out. You know, I think Sir Isaac Newton has been used as an example that, you know, he managed to come up with a theory of gravity and calculus in 1667 in the bubonic plague. And I was like, yes, but did he have a child asking for a pepper pig spoon over a paw patrol spoon?

No, he didn't. Oh, we've all been there. Yes. This is really to humanise flexible working going forwards and how we can actually wield it to our advantage. Louise, I'm interested to know, because I can imagine pre-pandemic that some companies would have a reticence

to allow people to have flexible working, worrying that if they came in late or they worked from home, that it might have a detrimental effect on the business. I guess they've been forced to address that during the pandemic and see the realities of the situation. Hi. Yes. Hi, Chloe. And thanks for having me. Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with what Anna said. Obviously, this report she's done has really highlighted what we've all been doing in this time and kind of working in a pandemic and trying to work remotely and flexibly. And so what we're doing at the moment is definitely not what we've always said flexible working is. Businesses, I think, during the pandemic and, you know, currently are really testing flexible working for the first time and seeing the challenges, but seeing that it can actually work and it works for their employees and it works for them. So, Anna, if you want to apply for flexible working, what do you have to do? And there are some rules surrounding it at the moment. I know it's slightly different in Northern Ireland, but give us a sense of what you should do. Well, I think this is where the heart of Flexipill lies in that currently you have to

wait for 26 weeks in a role to put the request forward. And that puts the onus on the employee and it makes you feel like you have to prove that you need this when actually it's not a bonus ball, it's not a nice to have it's not a fluffy extra it should be a fundamental shift in the way we work so we're going to be fighting for flexible working from day one for everyone uh with our flexible coalition um we we feel that you you're you're stunting talent by saying they have to earn that right to flexible working because if you're in a role where it is flexible and you want to move to a role that you suddenly have to earn, you know, after 26 weeks, the right to that flexibility, you're not going to move. So you're stunting talent. And often the burden of childcare

is strapped to female shoulders. So often it's a woman that remains in a job that works for her and doesn't want to move. So ultimately you're holding women back with that. So yes, 26 weeks at the moment, we're fighting for it from day one for everyone. Louise what are you finding has changed during the pandemic with regards the sort of people who are coming to you and also what companies are wanting? So I mean we have seen an increase on our business of over 3,000% of new users. That's obviously candidate-driven, and that's not unexpected due to the amounts of redundancies and people looking for works. But we have seen an increase as well of companies joining

that have suddenly realised that they can actually offer flexible working and part-time work, job shares, they want to connect with freelancers. So we have seen an increase there. I feel like the larger corporates are probably a bit slower maybe to offer this flexible working from the offset. And before the pandemic, less than 10% of jobs were advertised as flexible. And I think going forward forward that number will definitely

increase because I think lots of businesses will now have seen that they can do it and actually at the moment they have to offer remote working so if they're looking to recruit they have to offer that at the moment because we can't be in the office. Yeah of course and Anna I know that you you talked about the construction firm that you worked with in co-authoring this report and part of that was driven because of the high levels of suicide amongst construction workers wasn't it? Yes I think that's where Sir Robert McAlpine and Flexipil came together was I was consistently getting flack for pushing for just mothers wanting flexible working when actually it should be for everyone and we started speaking to Sir Robert McAlpine they, I think 1,400 men,

took their own lives within construction sites between 2011 and 2015. And that was a very sad, dark point where we could open up the conversation to male mental health, the need for flexible working for those with disabilities, those with caring responsibilities, those with mental health issues,

those just wanting to live. I think that was where we really came together and it stopped being seen as a women's issue, a mummy issue. Mummy just wants to see more of her Weetabix smattered child. It became a people issue. And that is something that I think this pandemic has highlighted is that flexible working is for everyone. It is not just for parents. And that's what the ForeverFlex

report is about. We found that 72% of employers want to keep working from home, 70% of employers want to continue working flexibly. So we really need to keep that momentum up for everyone, for men on construction sites, for women at home, for those with disabilities. And it's interesting. I mean, you talk about that rate of the number of people who've taken their own lives working construction. It's three times the national average for men. But of course, there's lots of reasons why that rate might be high. It could be job insecurity, it could be unrealistic deadlines, working away from home. Those things aren't going to be helped by flexible working, are they?

And I mean, also, one of the things people are talking about here is you need flexible childcare as well. Yes, you do. And I think this is something we're really pushing is to ensure that this campaign is inclusive. It can't just be for white collar workers working nine to five, and often NHS shift workers or anybody who needs to be flexible outside of that nine to five. And often NHS shift workers or anybody who needs to be flexible outside of that nine to five. We've only found one childcare in the UK. It's called Daisy Care in Birmingham that offers 24 hour childcare. So that is really going to have to be the next move is how to facilitate everybody working flexibly. And I think part of that is predictive hours, ensuring that shift workers don't get their hours the night before, giving more control over their hours. On NHS wards in Birmingham Women's Hospital, they have ward-led rostering where the nurses decide amongst

themselves how to run their wards at the time. So I think there's lots of different ways to work flexibly. It's not simply working from home. And that's, I think, what we're coming out of this pandemic realising. But the truth is, to be honest, is that if companies didn't zoom in during the pandemic, they'd have had to shut down. And I think it's very interesting to see when cold, hard cash is at stake, what is in fact possible for business. Well, let's ask Louise, because before we we go louise i'm just interested to know that flexibility that advanced notice of hours is that something that companies feel that they're able to do because that's crucial in making this work um yeah i think they can i think we've all got our i mean for with our business we work predominantly with

parents so they do know you know what hours they can work and what when their child care is covered so um and i think a lot of businesses can be very very flexible when it comes now as an appointed technology has just changed it and um the last eight nine months have proved that this technology can you know help and actually make flexible working remote working work um there shouldn't be anything to hold them back and i think even like anna said you know employers if they've been with a company 26 weeks they can say now look can we at least try what i have in mind and put a good plan together and say this is the type of flexible

working i'm looking for and can we try it um let's try it for three months see how it works and and if it does work for both parties then then it shouldn't be an issue going forward it's a model going forward listen thank you both so much for speaking to us very grateful to you for your time today anna whitehouse speaking to us aka mother pucker who founded flex appeal and there you heard from louise deverell smith who runs daisy chain which is an online platform that matches flexible employers with flexible job seekers. Now, last week, comedian Grace Campbell and psychotherapist Gabrielle Rifkin both shared their best advice for ditching the shame. And you can find their tips on the Woman's Hour website. You can also, you can catch that, you can catch previous Woman's Hour programmes

by downloading the BBC Sounds app. And of course, you can subscribe to our podcast there as well. Now, if you missed yesterday's programme, we were discussing how to boost your confidence if you're at absolute rock bottom, whether that's returning to work after having a baby, having responsibilities as a carer or after a relationship has broken down. We spoke to Frances Monaghan from Wise Women. It runs a confidence course, it runs workshops out of Glasgow, and she told us how negativity and positivity can be infectious.

One of the exercises that we do is look at where does low self-esteem come from? And for that exercise, one of the things we use is called an iceberg exercise. So we're looking at the influences in women's lives, because the bottom line is you're not born with low self-esteem or low self-confidence it's something that's created and it's created through many many influences from your you know family teachers school religious leaders and the social media you name it everything you have seen and heard and experienced in your entire life will shape how you feel about yourself and if if some of that's negative, then we are addressing that because what tends to happen with women, we find in the work that we do, is that women will always blame themselves for low self-esteem.

Women will always say, I come just being stupid or I come just a bit useless or a bit pathetic and they're that kind of self-critical voice that they hear that's something that's something that's been learned so we focus on breaking that down and looking at the blame and the shame and the guilt culture and trying to replace that with something else but you get people to say something about themselves don't you yes yes that's that's one of your favourite ones. Basically where that came from was I was doing a session on working with women with complex needs for staff

and we try to get the staff to do exercises that we do in the courses. So I started off by saying, just out of the blue, tell me something about yourself and I pointed to someone and the first thing everybody does is go, eh, mm. So I write that up. Anything, anything, anything you like, say anything you like. So there was a woman in the room who said, she started and she says,

well, I've got a fat backside and my roots need done. And everybody kind of laughed and I wrote that up and they were wondering why I did that. So then the next person said something negative and the next person said something negative and you could tell there was somebody in the back of the room who was itching to say something positive and she said I'm going to learn how to play the guitar and everybody in the room went oh so the energy immediately changed and the part the point of that was that negativity is quite infectious and but so is positivity so it's replacing the negative with the positive. So simple, but so true. Well, we have got an

article giving tips on how to build confidence and that will be out tomorrow. Now, some of us, we dunk them in a cup of tea or we spend hours baking them or like me, just grab a packet and run on the go. Whatever way you like them biscuits are embedded in our culture but the question is how how did this happen let's speak to lizzie calling him she's with us her book the biscuit the history of a very british indulgence explains the humble biscuits evolution hi there lizzie hi so let's talk about the name first biscuits where does that even come from oh um well in the ancient world the romans and the greeks would make uh barley bread thick coarse barley bread and then to preserve it they would

slice it up and dry the slices in the oven and make hard rusks and so it was twice baked and they so the romans called it pannis by coctus twice baked and the french called it b biscuit from twice baked and we call them biscuits. That's how it came to, so it's how you made biscuits in the early days is embedded in its name. Now, this is a dreadful thought. Biscuits haven't always had sugar in them. I mean, what's the point of having a biscuit if it hasn't got any sugar in it? Tell us about that. Well, you're supposed to take them. So it's a way of storing bread, basically. And you could take them on your ship.

It was sailors that ate them, soldiers ate them because they were lighter than carrying the actual grain or bread, which would go stale anyway. And so that's why you had. And so, yeah, no one put sugar in biscuits in the early days. And it wasn't until the Arabs, the Arabs around what's now Iraq, in Baghdad, the Abbasid Arabs set up a beautiful city, which was Baghdad was originally built on a concentric circles. It was supposed to be the center of the universe. And in the plains around it, the farmers perfected the art of um refining sugar cane juice and they met that they were the ones who produced um crystallized white beautiful shiny sugar which they thought was a perfect magic food so they added the sugar to the bread dough and that's how you got uh sweet sweet rusks

they were kind of like biscotti what we would think of as biscotti. And of course, the Arabs used lots of almonds and rose water, so they were flavoured and beautiful. And because they thought sugar was a perfect food, that gave them an excuse to stuff loads of them. I have to say, I'm with them on that, on the perfect food of sugar. Sugar keeps me going. Now, I know that in your book, there's some really lovely stories of a variety of people and their recipes for biscuits.

For example, one was Lady Eleanor Fettyplace. Tell us a little bit about what she made. Well, Lady Eleanor Fettyplace was a 17th century gentlewoman who lived in a manor house near Appleton Manor House near Oxford. Oxford and so ladies would have in their still rooms that that was where they they turned damask rose petals into rose water to flavor their confections and their biscuits and she made that still room was where you made medicines and food and and preserve fruit and vegetables and so biscuits then in the 17th century, they came into Britain. The first biscuit recipe was in an Italian alchemist's recipe book for plague remedies and how to find gold with salamanders and how to make little morsels as they make them in Naples, which were biscuits. And that's where she made her biscuits. And these were little kind of like hard sponge fingers.

And they would often add caraway seeds or anise seeds so you ate them at the end of a nice lavish meal with your sweet wine and to sweeten the breath and help digestion and so on so caraway seeds were known for curing windy colic so that's why you ate your biscuits this is fascinating so I mean there are so many recipes in this book for a variation have you actually tried baking any of them well I did actually I did I did try quite a lot of Lady Eleanor Fetterplace's biscuits and so successful I wanted uh well she put coriander seeds in them my hairdresser actually managed to make really quite delicious orangey flavoured because they were the coriander seeds gave it an orangey flavour. But my coriander seed biscuits tasted disgusting.

So they're a bit hit and miss. I tried cracknels, which you have to boil in water like bagels or pretzels before. And mine just deflated. And then I was watching the bake off and Paul Holliswood said oh that's because they were overproved I know I know why I can't make good crack knolls yeah classic mistake not that I'm a baker but I've seen Paul Hollywood say that enough times now I want to talk to you a little bit about the Gary Baldy because I firmly feel this is an underrated biscuit you write about it a little bit in the book and it absolutely

takes me back to my childhood and many biscuits do that don't they fig rolls is another one yeah no I think biscuits we associate them with childhood and nostalgia so I associate Gary Bordy's with my granddad who was a steel worker in Sheffield and he always called them squashed flies yes and Gary but I mean the thing is in the 19th century biscuit manufacturers were forever inventing biscuits i mean it's amazing with sugar wheat and butter you wouldn't think you could then make that many different versions of that combination however they were forever inventing new ones trying to get more sales and they would call them after celebrities or royalty to get more sales. And so when Italy was unified in 1861,

Pieck Freen called their new biscuit, which was currants and dough, Gary Baldy. And then three years later, Gary Baldy came to visit England. And he was a hero for the working classes of universal suffrage. The upper classes liked him because he defeated the Habsburgs and the Bourbons. And there were huge crowds turned out. Queen Victoria was really miffed because more crowds turned out than for her. And so they made figurines, China figurines. They waved red flags. They called roads and pubs after Gary Baldy.

And of course, I should imagine the sales of the biscuit absolutely must have soared. And also then the biscuit was entrenched. So lots of these like Albert biscuits and Balmoral biscuits and Osborne biscuits, they've disappeared. We don't eat them anymore. But Garibaldi's stayed. They became firmly entrenched in our repertoire. And also gingerbread because it's firework night tonight. But of course, there's a link there, which I didn't know. Yeah. Yeah. So when I was little I mean people say now oh gingerbread's associated with Christmas but for me gingerbread was associated with bonfire

night my mum would make gingerbread men and I discovered that there's actually a long story so basically during fairs which were originally to celebrate a saint they were pilgrims came gathering together to celebrate a saint and then theyims came gathering together to celebrate a saint, and then they turned into sort of fun fairs and marketplaces and so on. And one of the favourite treats sold at a fair was gingerbread. And often it would be made into little figures of the saint, so they were like idols, really. And the Catholics were rather just proving but but when they had the first bonfire night in 1606 to celebrate the foiling of the gunpowder plot they made little guys in gingerbread little figures and then you could bite off the head of your papist and show you were a protestant and

so on and that's how gingerbread men became associated with bonfire night which I guess we've kind of lost now yeah yeah I have to ask you before you go should you dunk a biscuit in your tea we were having a chat about this yesterday in the office and it's something people get really passionate about I know and I don't I don't like it so you'll have lots of irate emails because I don't like dunking biscuits really no I like they're coming in already no I'm joking I like dunking biscuits. Really? No, I like dunking. They're coming in already. No, I'm joking. I like dunking them in wine, but that makes me sound like a snob. Do you? Yeah, because that's what you were supposed to do in the 17th century, these hard sponge fingers or biscotti. I mean, the Italians still do it in Vincenzo. You were supposed to dunk your biscuits in your sweet wine at the end of a meal. And so when I was trying them out, I tried that out and I made sponge fingers and they're dry and boring. But if you dip them in sherry, they taste

delicious. So I got quite addicted. I'm going to have to stop it. But I'd recommend try dunking them in wine. Rather than tea. Brilliant. Lizzie, thank you so much for speaking to us. It's been really, really illuminating. Lizzie Collingham there, who's booked The Biscuit, The History of a Very British Indulgence, explains all about the evolution of biscuits. Now, here on Woman's Hour, we're going to spend the next few minutes talking about outdoor learning, because being amongst nature can be hugely beneficial for our well-being. We do know that. But what about learning outside as a child? Can a forest school, for example, help re-engage children after the broken learning of the pandemic? Well, let's speak to Sarah Collins, Deputy Chair of the Forest School Association

and founder of the Nature Premium Campaign, which is calling for ring-fenced funding for every school to provide nature-based learning. Sarah was also suggested for the Woman's Hour Power List by one of our listeners. And also with us is Dr Rowena Passy, who is Senior Research Fellow at the University of Plymouth Institute for Education. Thank you both for joining us.

Sarah, first of all, if people aren't familiar with what a forest school is, just explain that to us, if you would. Thank you. A forest school is an inspirational, child-centred learning process, and it takes place over a long period of time in a wooded environment. It encourages play and exploration and supports risk-taking and it helps children develop self-confidence, self-esteem and resilience and understand how they fit into the natural world. For the Nature Premium campaign, we were defining nature as forest school, obviously, but also any sort of nature experience from conservation to gardening to going out in the countryside, sustainable living or into the wild areas in schools. So if we're talking about a forest school, are we saying that a typical day would be maybe building fires

and den building, things like that? It varies very much with the children that you're going out with and the site that you're working in. But generally there's a structure, a routine to the day in which you arrive and set up the site. You might do an assessment to look for potential risks in the area. So I give the children their red flag and they go out and look for something that might be a possible hazard um so other children know to keep their eyes open

but i also give them a green flag and they go out to look for um things in the environment that they may not have noticed before so it might be some new fungi or a flowering plant or or some hazelnuts that have appeared since they were last there. And then they would choose to do activities and we have a regular fire circle and cook snacks over the fire. And then at the end of the day, we reflect on our activities and how the day's gone, what's been good and what could have been better

and how we might do things differently next time. So it's a very reflective process. Rowena, I mean, kids love being outside as a general rule, don't they? Getting dirty and just getting in amongst it. But is there a way of actually judging what the benefits are of this kind of outdoor learning experience? Yes, there is. We did at the University of Plymouth, we did deliver the Natural Connections demonstration project. And we saw, I mean, let's talk about teachers first. But one of your themes today has been health and well-being, hasn't it?

Absolutely. Yes. And so we found for teachers, 72% of responding teachers said that they agreed that outdoor learning had a positive effect on their health and well-being and they said that that was for three particular reasons and the first was because they were in nature which is what we've been talking about just now another was because they would see relationships change with the children I mean when children are outside doing different things you see different sides to them they can be be more relaxed, perhaps more talkative. And so they were learning new things about the children, which shifted their relationship. And the third thing was that they're seeing children enjoying and engaging with their learning. I remember one of the teachers I interviewed looking at me and just saying,

outside learning, outdoor learning feeds the soul, which is a wonderful thing to say, isn't it? Yeah. I guess the challenge is that for a school that's maybe got a tight budget, for teachers that are stretched and trying to deliver the curriculum that they're told they have to deliver, I guess some schools might see this as a luxury that they just can't afford financially or in time. Well, that is one of the challenges, without doubt. I mean, there are lots of teachers that really enjoy teaching outside and they're experienced and knowledgeable in it. And we're talking about curricular-based learning really now. But many teachers haven't taught outside and not everybody wants to. And one of the major problems that we found in the Natural Connections project was teachers

lacked confidence and knowledge and skills in teaching learning taking learning outside I mean the pedagogy is different isn't it if you think about it children move around more they have different expectations when they're outside and it can be if you've never done it it can be a little bit scary so teachers need a lot of support in getting the hang really of taking their learning outside. Sarah, how does this work? It's fine if you live out in the countryside, easy for schools to set up a forest school. But if you're an inner city school, for example, without access to open spaces, how do those children access a forest school well i work with urban children in portsmouth and some schools have an area a field that they can develop into a wild area and plant

trees and other schools are within walking distance of a park or or can get to the coast. So there are options. What we need is for some creative thinking. The reason that we've been pushing the Nature Premium idea is that it gives ring-fenced funding, but it would also empower schools to be able to get children outside. What we find is that schools that understand the benefit about their education take their children outside, but schools that don't, don't. So if schools have a statutory right or statutory need to take children outside into nature, then all children get a fair treatment. And post-COVID, it's been very obvious that there's an inequity of access to nature.

So through schools, that makes things very fair. And children who come from a black and ethnic minority background, they've been seen to have less time outside. And children whose family have an income less than £17,000 spend less time outside. And children whose family have an income less than £17,000 spend less time outside. So if it's funded via a school system, it makes it fair and all children can be treated the same. And they all have the benefit to their mental health and wellbeing.

And they all have the benefit of seeing how they fit into the natural world. Rowena, do you think outside learning has a role to play in helping children recover? I mean, so many children had so many months off school during the pandemic. Can it sort of address that broken learning? Oh, definitely. I mean, outdoor learning encourages children

to become confident, independent learners who are able to face new challenges. And I think one of the things of coming back to school after such a long time away from school is that it can be very difficult to settle down. And if you take children outside, for example, you can work off some of the excess energy, if you like, by doing something really active, let's say collecting leaves, and then you can bring the focus into the leaves themselves so that you're sort of calming everything down, getting the children to focus on one specific thing. And then you can take it deeper, take it deeper in a discussion about the leaves after that.

So, yes, it's a really, really good way of reengaging children with their learning. It's interesting you say that. I remember my eight-year-old saying when she went back to school that she really struggled focusing, just being in a classroom with 30 other kids when she just had sort of one-to-one learning with me while I was juggling things. But really interesting conversation there. Thank you so much. And that was Sarah Collins, Deputy Chair of the Forest School Association and founder of the Nature Premium Campaign, speaking with me along with Dr Rowena Passy, Senior Research Fellow at the University of Plymouth Institute for Education. Lots of you getting in touch with us about this conversation about outdoor learning. Julia says,

I'm listening with interest to your discussion of forest school. I'm a recently retired teacher who spent 15 years taking my class on weekly forest school sessions. While I agree wholeheartedly with the benefits discussed during the programme, it's important to note that a wide range of curriculum subjects can be incorporated within the forest school setting. I've had some of my most successful maths and English lessons outside. Even now when I see former pupils, they always mention forest school and how much they loved it. Teaching outdoors certainly has a massive impact on children's development. In discussing with colleagues, they always expect the more lively

children to benefit from being outdoors in a structured setting. But I got just as much satisfaction from seeing how the quiet indoor children responded to the outdoor life. It definitely needs to be incorporated into the curriculum. Thanks for that, Julia. Lynn has also got in touch saying outdoor learning is fabulous. My son has recently moved to a new school with an ARP for children with autism. Their million children in the UK have been involved so far. And it's important to remember any teacher can take lessons outside. It doesn't matter how small your space is, there are amazing resources. I agree with that, Carly. I remember being at school and going outside

and actually just having a normal science lesson outside and just being outside, change of environment was really beneficial. You may well have also heard us talking to Lizzie Collingham. If you've listened to the whole of the podcast. She was talking about the history of biscuits. Alison says, I'm making myself a cup of tea while listening and now feel absolutely compelled to devour a couple of biscuits, even though I had no intention of eating anything. And so the lockdown nibbling begins. Well, I can identify with that, Alison, for sure. Richard says, dunking biscuits is not only disgusting, it's rude. It should be frowned upon.

Woman's Hour should be discouraging this appalling behaviour. Valerie is also going to touch saying, years ago, I was doubled up with extreme stomach pain. Back in the day when your GP did house visits, he threatened hospital admission if I didn't ease within the hour.

Ultimately, everything was okay. I didn't go to hospital. Pretty simple conclusion was reached. My shameful greed and speed in eating a whole pack of Gary Baldy biscuits in minutes. It's quite impressive, really. Lesson painfully learnt, but they still remain one of my favourite biscuits. Thanks for that, Valerie. And Susan Stewart says, wine and biscuit dunking, which was suggested by Lizzie, of course, sounds good to me. Someone else saying here as well, oh my goodness, I now need biscuits.

Thanks a lot. Sorry, Jill. Yeah, I think all of us feel a bit like that, but need a bit of a nibble. Now, we were, of course, also talking about flexible working and whether the COVID pandemic is forcing this in sort of a new era, if you like. Expert Fafa has tweeted, saying, so interesting to hear about the hospital ward where staff organise the rota themselves. The best job I ever had was in a bar in Germany where the whole staff sat together once a month to agree shifts.

It worked brilliantly and everybody helped each other out. Liz says that all for it, but it does work both ways. For 20 years, I was forced into an office environment which I found terrifying baffling and where my productivity was limited by my need to conform some of the work and the people I did really enjoy but the need to turn up to a specific place just because it was expected of me was soul destroying flexible working needs to be supported post-pandemic for those who work best this way thank you for um that, Liz.

An important point there. And of course, we were also talking about the issues for pregnant women in lockdown two in England. Obviously, the lockdown starting in England today. Obviously, Wales still in the firebreak lockdown. Other restrictions across the United Kingdom. Maternity Action has tweeted saying, it's not just scans and births.

During the first lockdown, hundreds of pregnant women were unlawfully sent home on sick pay or unpaid leave by their employer. The Chancellor needs to use this newly extended furlough scheme to avoid a repeat of this in lockdown too. And lots of people who are pregnant, understandably concerned getting in touch with us. Sarah says, I'm listening now. I'm 26 weeks pregnant and it has been an awful experience. I've had a lot of concerns early on about viability and I wasn't allowed my partner in despite having two miscarriages. He's not been allowed in in my scams. I don't see a midwife in person at all, apparently until the end of November. Well, best of luck, Sarah. Stay safe and try not to worry too much and Carolyn says whilst I'm sure it was done with the best intentions and contained much reassuring information the way your guests

described the increase in stillbirths as a blip was deeply hurtful twice this reference was made and whilst again I'm sure the intention was to reassure to twice use the term blip when talking about such a loss just took my breath away each statistic was a much loved cared for and cherished Thank you for raising that. But I'm sure, as you say, it was not intended as any offence caused. It was merely saying that they didn't feel that this was necessarily linked to the Covid pandemic. Jackie has got in touch with us here on Woman's Hour to say, I cannot believe such a fuss about women not having their partners with them when they go for scans. For goodness sake, there are people dying alone in hospital without any family allowed to visit for weeks because of the COVID virus.

At least these pregnant women are able to go back to their partners with the scan photograph and look forward to the time when their baby is born. As for giving birth with no birth partner allowed, well, just tough it out. Women of my generation were never allowed a birth partner and we survived. And there's an anonymous message here from someone who says, I'm in my third trimester in my second pregnancy and would have found it terrifying to have been without my partner throughout the hours and hours of induction of labour in my first pregnancy. And again, without the support of my partner in the postnatal ward, even though I'm a doctor with many years experience.

More messages here as well on pregnancy. Ellen saying, sadly, it seems to be the new norm for women's partners to be excluded from hospitals now. My daughter had to attend her local hospital for a managed miscarriage after she was informed at her first scan that the foetus had no heartbeat. This was her second managed miscarriage, so she knew what to expect, but it was so sad and lonely for her, with her partner and myself excluded the hospital is a large roomy building so lack of space and fresh air etc are not reasonable excuses in this case Ellen I'm so sorry to hear about that um Sarah says that my daughter-in-law is

currently 39 weeks pregnant my son was not allowed to be at any scans thus far the hospital is Queen Charlotte's in West London he's healthy so why this is plain cruel the hospital is Queen Charlotte's in West London. He's healthy. So why? This is plain cruel. I'm sure Queen Charlotte's would say that there is a reason for that. But of course, it's challenging, isn't it, for people in these circumstances? And Stacey says, I'm a doula. I've seen some terrible examples of care here in Wales. Women in wheelchairs going to scans on their own without their partner, who is also a carer. Women having miscarriage scans on their own without their partner who is also a carer women having miscarriage scans on their own women only allowed one partner at their birth so excluding their chosen support people be that their mother their sister or their doula pregnancy and labour is a

very vulnerable time and this needs to change thank you for all of your messages about all of the conversations we've had on today's programme. On Woman's Hour tomorrow, we're going to be talking to some carers because recent research showed that four in five carers are still providing more care than they did before lockdown. We're going to revisit two people that we spoke to back in April. Liz Brooks, who looks after her husband, Mike, who's got dementia. Also, Chris Black, who cares for his wife, who has frontal temporal dementia.

They're going to speak to us again tomorrow, really just to give us an idea of how they're getting along. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.