Woman's Hour - What's behind a kid feigning illness and not wanting to go to school?

Episode Date: November 11, 2019

What do you do when your child says they're too ill to go to school – but you suspect that they’re perfectly fine? How could the ‘whole system approach’ support women in the Criminal Justice system in Wales? The writer and creator of Gold Digger Marnie Dickens. A 60 year old divorced woman and mother of three is seduced by a much younger man. Why is the relationship met with such suspicion and annoyance? Plus the life and work of Madam C.J. Walker - the daughter of slaves who went on to become the USA’s first self-made millionaire, with a groundbreaking afro haircare business, which still dominates the BAME haircare industry today. Presenter Jane Garvey Producer Beverley PurcellGuest; Marnie Dickens Guest; Dr Angharad Rudkin Guest; Rebecca Schiller. Guest; Elena Favilli, Guest; Charlotte Mensah Guest; Eleri Butler Guest; Martin Nugent Guest; Juliet Lyon

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Hi there, good morning. Today we'll look at the life of Madam CJ Walker. She was the child of slaves and went on to become one of America's first female self-made millionaires. She established a groundbreaking hair care business, So more about her on the programme today. Also, it was a particularly grotty Monday morning in November this morning. And I guess many of us thought, you know what, I'd rather be at home in bed. But did your child attempt to pull a sickie today?

What did you do? What should you do when your child has one of those mysterious tummy aches at about 20 past seven in the morning? Is there, well, what is the right way to approach this? Do you get involved? Do you keep them at home? Do you take a day off? Do you make them go to school when you've got your suspicions? At BBC Woman's Hour on Twitter and Instagram, if you want to tell us about your experiences,

we've got quite a few already. Here's one from a lady who says, I just send them in. Mine learnt long ago that unless a limb was hanging off or they were emitting profuse amounts of gastrointestinal contents or I could fry eggs on their forehead or they had a notifiable disease or pox, I was going to send them in anyway. She does go on to say, I am a paediatrician. At BBC Woman's Hour, if you have a view on that. Now, we'll start this morning with the fact that women make up

only a tiny percentage of the whole prison population. And there has actually been a debate for many years about whether most female offenders should go to prison at all. A recent report on the justice system in Wales, which doesn't have its own women's prison, included recommendations to overhaul the way in which women offenders are dealt with. So let's talk to Juliet Lyon, member of the Commission for Justice in Wales.

Good to see you, Juliet. Joining us from Cardiff is Alarie Butler, who is CEO, Alarie Butler, I do apologise, CEO of Welsh Women's Aid. Alarie, good morning to you. Morning. And in Salford, Martin Nugent, who is lead for vulnerable and marginalised women from Greater Manchester Combined Authority. Martin, good morning to you. Good morning. Now, you have already done, I think you've actually carried out some of the recommendations in this report about Wales, and you've actually lowered your re-offending rates in terms of female offenders, Martin.

So briefly tell us what you've done in Greater Manchester. Morning. Thank you. us Martin so briefly tell us what you've done in Greater Manchester. Morning thank you and what we did is we linked together the women's centres that existed already we made sure there's equitable access to those women's centres from women that were either in the criminal justice so on release from custody usually returning from HMP style that was either on a community order, so any community order was delivered from their women's centre, not a probation office, to try and avoid women being sent to short custodial sentences by having a problem-solving court approach

for women across Greater Manchester. And then from the police custodyustody Suite as well, at that very early opportunity, either, where appropriate, to divert out of the criminal justice system or to get them the support to go through the system and other general support that they may need. So the emphasis was on keeping women out of jail, simple as that? Absolutely, yes.

We're not saying that in some circumstances women shouldn't be going to jail, but we do know that women that end up in the criminal justice system, in the vast majority of instances, have had more crimes committed against them, much more seriously than they perpetrate themselves. They offend often at bequest of men, and they often have suffered a lot of trauma in their lives.

Juliet, you've been on this programme many times over the years and we've had more or less, often, if you don't mind me saying so, the same sort of conversation. It appears to be, from Martin, an acknowledgement that female and male offenders are different. Are they, honestly, very different? When you look at the facts and figures, you can see that they're different. It's not that there aren't vulnerable men. There are many with mental health needs. But if you

look at women, they've mostly been victims of serious crime. So sexual abuse, domestic violence, and they've been perpetrators of much less serious crime, shoplifting, or drug related offences. And if you look at women in Wales, you can see that three quarters of them are serving sentences of less than a year. And in fact, a quarter of those are serving less than a month. So the fact that there wasn't and isn't a prison in Wales is a positive advantage, I think. A positive advantage. Absolutely. A lot of people will think, well, I simply don't get that. So why do you make that case? Well, once you've got a prison, you fill it and it tends to be somewhere the courts look to immediately. Now women at the moment have to serve their sentences in England. They mostly go to Style in Manchester or they go

to Eastwood Park near Bristol. If the proposal is carried out and we're optimistic that it will be, there'll be a network of women's centres across Wales. There'll be court-ordered supervision and support for these women. They can serve their sentences near to their homes. They can get help with skills for employment. They can get help to get out of debt. They can get mental health care and treatment for drug addiction. So much more can happen in that way. And that's where we're optimistic,

because the public services, apart from justice, are already devolved to Wales. And there's a commitment already been given now by Wales government to set up an implementation unit to have a justice committee chaired by the First Minister. So, you know, they're already moving and we only launched it a matter of 10 days or so ago. What about the money here? Where does the money come from? Well, the commission that I served on was chaired by Lord Thomas and he was a former Lord Chief Justice. The Secretary and the Commissioners worked carefully to look at costing. So in relation

to women, we could see, for example, that a prison place could cost as much as £50,000 a year. And actually, that's so much more expensive than incarcerating a male offender. It is. Why? Because of the health needs, the maternity needs in some instances, because you need more intensive staffing. And I say more intensive, you know, there are still, it's still really very badly staffed. And people who work in women's prisons would say that they could do so much more. But most would acknowledge actually so many of the women who are there don't need to be there. And that's the point. If you save money by saving the number of women who get into the justice system, and Wales has been very strong on prevention,

very strong on domestic violence legislation, on hate crime, on preventing trafficking, and the whole orientation seems to be more about prevention and social justice. And that's where there's a big foothold for this to really take hold. Aleri Butler of Welsh Women's Aid, are you optimistic then about all this? Yeah, we are optimistic. We know that women are disproportionately affected by poverty and discrimination

and interpersonal violence and exploitation and particularly many women living with coercive control are involved in crime and forced into it by perpetrators and we know that women may be dealing as as has been said, with multiple issues at any one time, whether it's homelessness, involvement in prostitution or mental health problems, domestic violence and so on. And the whole system approach in Wales specifically has been piloted over the last few years, but we really support the Justice Commission recommendations to make sure that we actually proceed,

we actually expedite the priorities. It's really, really important that we don't only stop criminalising debt and poverty and addiction and experiences of abuse, but we drastically reduce custodial sentencing and replace it with community sentencing in Wales. And we want to see a rapid investment of secure and sustainable funding for women's services in Wales, women's centres, domestic and sexual violence services, and for support service, a one-stop shop in effect that provides support by an organisation called Future 4 and they'll have support workers available for women in custody centres, in courts, in prison and in the community. So you back

Juliet's stance that actually the absence of a women's prison in Wales is a positive. Absolutely. Most Welsh women in prison shouldn't be there. Prison doesn't work as a deterrent. We know that. And yet, of course, we know that, as Juliet's already pointed out, some serious offenders will have to have a custodial sentence. And there is no hope at all of those women serving that sentence in Wales. They will have to go to England and that will cause more problems for family and friends, surely. It causes issues in relation to travel, but we know that

Welsh women are already being held on remand or sentenced to prison in ever-increasing numbers. And as has been said, if a prison is built, then the prison population will just expand to fill the spaces. We can't build ourselves out of this crisis. What we've got in Wales is a crisis of women's unmet need

across the country. We've got more women sentenced to short sentences. And we know that prison and the criminal justice system aren't good at addressing the root causes of women's offending, which is linked to high levels of disadvantage, complex needs, mental ill health, addiction and abuse and so on. I mean, just to make the point, and I know that Juliette's always very careful to make and she's already made it, but those, they can abuse and so on. I mean, just to make the point, and I know Juliette's always very careful to make

and she's already made it, but those, they can apply to men too. I've been into men's prisons, I've been into women's prisons and honestly, everybody seemed vulnerable and less fortunate than me, if I'm honest. No, I appreciate that, but I really don't think it's in Welsh women's interest

to have more women in prison in Wales. And as has been said, it's not in our interest financially. And instead of imprisoning women for crimes of poverty or for their experiences of trauma, why don't we just use the money going into women's prisons to deliver alternative sentencing options involving community sentencing, access to women's services for support that meets women's diverse needs? We know that that works in reducing re-offending. Only 3% of the women's prison population, roughly 3%, are at high risk to others.

Most women are in prison for, as has been said, for debt, for poverty crimes and abuse and so on. So we really need community sentencing and community options. Martin, did you meet much resistance in your area when you came up with your new approach to things? No, I think actually it was recognised. We did a lot of work with leadership to make sure that leadership were on board and they absolutely were. And they were pushing the agenda forward.

And it was recognising that predominantly the criminal justice system is built by men for men. And you need something different for women. The point about men is really important and we do have men for men and you need something different for women um that the point about men is really important and we do have options for for men and we would like to very much change the emphasis around process of you know if you're in a system you get this result to actually being much more around need so what are your needs how can we we help address those needs? How can we help you make those steps forward? And that is across gender as well. The system that we built to sort of trial that, if you like, was our whole system approach for vulnerable and marginalised women. Do you sense, Juliette, a change in the public mood around female offenders, honestly? We can have conversations like this in relatively rarefied atmospheres like this, but honestly, on the streets of Britain, what do people really think?

Well, you know, this was a really interesting commission in that it took 200 written submissions of evidence. We saw 180 people, we convened 80 meetings across Wales. And there was a really high degree, I mean, we obviously reviewed the whole of justice in Wales but on this specific issue about women there was a very high degree of agreement that women needed alternatives to custody there was a recognition that women need opportunities to take proper responsibility for their lives

and there was quite a strong emphasis on safe housing for example and the importance of getting women somewhere safe to live so that they could have their children and take care of them in a way that they wanted to. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us. I appreciate it. Juliet Lyon, you also heard from Martin Nugent, who is from Greater Manchester Combined Authority, where they've already made these changes, as you pointed out. And we're grateful to to O'Leary Butler, the CEO of Welsh Women's Aid. And if you've got any experiences

or any thoughts on that, you can, of course, email the programme via the website bbc.co.uk forward slash Women's Hour. A Gold Digger is a new six-part TV series about a 60-year-old divorced woman and a mother of three who begins a relationship with a much younger man, much to the annoyance and disconcertion, it would be fair to say,

of her three relatively adult children. Well, actually one child, the younger one, Marnie Dickens, the screenwriter is here. The younger one is what? He's looked like a student or... 25. He's about to be 25. Is he really 25? He really is, yes. Still living at home with his mum? Yes. Yes, he is.

But I guess there are lots of 25 year olds doing precisely that. Okay, we're going to play a short clip from this show which starts on BBC One tomorrow night at 9 o'clock. It has been quite heavily trailed so you may think you know what this series is about but you might be wrong actually. Here's a quick clip.

You do not look like my mum. Look, I've held off asking this because well because i didn't want to know the answer but what exactly are you doing with me why aren't you with someone your own age what's wrong with you oh see we're done with the pleasantries i know nothing about you nothing concrete that's not true you know lots i don't even know your last name. It's a pretty bloody basic detail. My last name is Green. All right.

That is Julia Ormond and Ben Barnes playing the lead characters in the show. They are Julia and Benjamin, respectively, in the drama Gold Digger. So all the pre-publicity money has been about this idea of the dynamic between an older woman and a younger man. That's what you intended, because that is essentially, ostensibly, what this programme is about. That is definitely the sort of lead story of the show, but there's a lot more going on. I suppose I actually started with wanting to do a family drama

and then kind of put on top of that this idea of the sort of taboo of an older woman and a younger man. So I personally think it subverts what the audience will come to expect. Having watched all the trailers, they will get more than that as the series goes on. You see, I felt I'd been set up slightly. I've seen the trailers, then I saw the first episode, and I'm not now certain that I've been served up what I thought I was getting. Set up in a bad way, like duped.

Just duped. You've been duped. Just duped. You've been duped. Great. Horribly duped. Duped. I suppose if you think, I suppose you watch that trailer and you might think it's just going to be a sort of saucy romp of... Well, that's what all the pre-publicity has led us to expect.

We've heard about them going out on dates together, saying they wanted the sex scenes to be authentic. I mean, I've swallowed all this. Yes, well, that's good. And I suppose that hopefully will bring people to the show. And then I hope the reason they stay and the reason I wanted to write it was to really excavate this family and their secrets and the fact that, you know, whenever you start a new relationship,

whether it's with a younger man or whatever, you're bringing your past with you. Let's get down and dirty about the age of the woman in question. Now, she is 60 in the show, but played by a woman of 54. Why wasn't she played by a woman of 65? Or even 60? Or even 60. Well, you know, all actors have an age range of about 10 years.

So, you know, you're always somewhere in the middle of that. I suppose it comes down to who's the best person for the part. Julia Ormond felt like the right person. She put aside any ego and was completely prepared to play 60. I suppose it comes down to who's the best person for the part. Julia Ormond felt like the right person. She put aside any ego and was completely prepared to play 60. I was going to ask you about that. How do you say to an actor? Well, go on, tell me.

It's a delicate thing to say. You know, of course I didn't say, Julia, you know, you could pass for 60. I didn't say anything like that. I said, listen, it's really important that this character is 60 because it's a milestone birthday and she kind of reflects on her life and the sacrifices she's made for the people. And Julia Orman was the one who said, I'm very happy to do that. And obviously it was a process. She had to work with costume and make-up.

And I really hope that viewers at home find it an authentic portrayal of a 60-year-old. I was actually thinking when I last saw a drama about this sort of relationship, younger man, older woman. And actually, truthfully, I can't I couldn't remember. So was that that was entirely deliberate. You really wanted to to do this in a pioneering sort of a way. I mean, people will be emailing soon and texting and tweeting to say, oh, there's this and there's this. But anyway, go on. Yeah, I can't think of any. I suppose I wasn't setting out to be a pioneer, but I like the thought of being one.

No, I suppose what I really, I began with wanting an older woman and to portray an older woman. And then the notion of the younger lover came in. I know there's brilliant things like Mum with Leslie Manville. Yeah. But I just find older women fascinating.

You know, whether you've had children or not had children, there's just so much more, I think, to an older woman than an older man, which may make me desperately unpopular. Some of our older male listeners will be very upset by that. Yes, I'm sure. What do you mean, actually? Do you mean in terms of they've got different sorts of relationships,

friendships, family ties, perhaps complications that men wouldn't have? I think so. And this is only going to make me more unpopular with male listeners. But I think women traditionally have had to put other people before themselves and have had to seek permission for nearly every decision they make in life and so I think that that takes a bigger toll and um and on older women you know they're kind of forgotten by society and and Julia Ormond always talks about this that they're made invisible and the whole point of the drama is that somebody really sees Julia not as a mother not as a wife as a person and that's yes okay well let's let's leave people with that thought about Gold Digger. Because if we say any more, it's not, it's actually, just see it. It's tomorrow night on BBC One at nine o'clock. And there are six episodes

altogether, aren't there? There are six. Now, you also wrote at 13, that was the Joe Decoma breakthrough show that was on BBC Three, I think. That was, well, it was about a woman who had been incarcerated, but you focused on her escape. Was that a deliberate thing? It was very deliberate. There were lots of shows in development at the time because of awful real life events. And quite a lot of them, I think, you know, looked at the time of a person being in captivity. And I just naturally wanted to start where I suppose lots of other shows would have ended with her escape, because I just wanted it to be kind of about a survivor coming into the world and also about how we as a society expect survivors to behave and questioning that I just thought it was

much more interesting and less voyeuristic than sort of being with someone in a cellar having an awful time I mean we have as as women female viewers, been fed this relentless diet, actually, of women as just vulnerable victims. And I must admit, I go as far away from it as I possibly can. Is that something that you, have you ever questioned your own viewing choices um but it's very hard to get away from and i think sally wainwright talked about it a lot with happy valley the most violence that's done is men doing violence against women so to completely shy away from it feels untrue and as a dramatist you're always searching for truth but it's how you depict it and i think that's what sally wainwright does so brilliantly she doesn't shy away from the horror of it and it's never ever sort of glamorized no i mean it is always worth remembering partly and i do drag do drag this statistic out quite regularly, men are much more likely to be murdered than women, actually, statistically.

But we don't, we aren't fed that as an entertainment diet, are we, in quite the same way? But I think it comes down to what people think viewers want to watch and they think, you know, in our patriarchal society, the thing we're going to watch is a woman in need and whether, you know, her moment for need has come too late because she's dead. I think that's just the narrative that we've always had. And it's bleak. It's a bleak narrative.

No, it really is bleak. What I also am intrigued about, particularly in TV drama at the moment, and you have it to a degree in Gold Digger, actually, the beautiful, unnervingly pristine interiors. Have you honestly in your real life ever entered a place like that? Or I've never lived in one. I know that much, that's for sure. I have to say my parents do keep a very tidy house. Do they?

But, you know, we've all left. But listen, in America, big little lies. People want to watch that sort of escapist house. There's something about us Brits. We don't like to see it too much. We like a bit more mess. A bit more, yes, a bit more clutter surrounding the heartbreak of the narrative. narrative yeah I would like more clutter um as as a female writer getting commission

presumably after 13 you were told go please go and write for us was that what happened but how did you get that first opportunity I have to say it wasn't like that the second time around the door didn't fling open and it wasn't drawn inside the warmth of the broadcaster. But the first one is really hard. It's the hardest, obviously, because you're untested. And it is a lot of money and it's a lot of people you're employing with your words, as it were. So I understand the sort of due diligence. And that's why you do your episodes of Hollyoaks and Musketeers and Ripper Street. Was Hollyoaks your very first TV experience?

It was. But how did you get that? I got an agent with a lot of arm twisting and she set about getting me meetings and then you just have to do the work and try and prove that you can marshal an hour or half an hour of TV. And Hollyoaks, is that a good, I mean seriously, is that a good place to work? If you're wanting to learn, I guess that kind of continuing drama is the best place to be, isn't it? It's really the best place. I say this a lot. Everybody sees soap as a bit of a dirty word in the industry it's not you know millions of people turn it turn

in every night to watch the soaps and follow those characters through through their whole lives and in soap you have to deliver four or five episodes of tv a week so of course you're turning story around really fast and I think it's the best learning learning curve there is. And would you watch soaps in your real life? I do I. And would you watch soaps in your real life? I do. I did. I don't watch soaps in my real life anymore. So what is your box set treat of choice? Of Succession. Yeah, OK. People keep mentioning Succession.

I've never seen an episode. Why would I want that in my life? You would want it. Personally, Series 2 is better. I know it's really annoying to be told to plough through lots of episodes first. In order to be rewarded. In order to be rewarded. I think you'd want it because the character journeys are just sensational and you think you're starting with a repellent bunch of rich people that you can't have any empathy for and then I think

you really do care for them. Alright, so I should start Succession Series 1 knowing that when the time, by the time Series 2 comes around, I'll totally be in love with it. Alright, that's my homework. You've set it for me. Thank you very much, Marnie. Good love with it. Yep. All right, that's my homework. You've set it for me. Thank you very much, Marnie.

Good to see you. And Gold Digger, BBC One, tomorrow night, 9 o'clock. Thank you. Thank you very much. Now, later in this programme, we're talking about kids trying to cop a sickie and pull a day off school when, in fact, they just don't fancy going. But what lies behind their reluctance to go to school? Is there something more to it?

Might it actually be a friendship issue of one sort or another? So we'll talk about that on the programme. And tomorrow, I'm really looking forward to talking to the brilliant American novelist, Elizabeth Strout, whose latest book is Olive Again. If you fell in love with Olive Kittredge, you'll know why everyone is so excited by a second book of short stories about life in Maine in the United States. That's tomorrow. Now, if you just pop your headphones on, Charlotte, that would be brilliant. We're about to talk about Madam C.J. Walker. She is an incredible figure from history, actually. She was the daughter of slaves and she went on to establish a business empire and became one of America's first

self-made female millionaires. She set up this groundbreaking Afro hair care business, Madam C.J. Walker's Beauty Culture. And 100 years after her death, a new children's book about her life by the publishers Rebel Girls is aiming to inspire the next generation of female business leaders. With me in the studio in London is Afro hair stylist, aforementioned Charlotte Mensah. Welcome to the programme, Charlotte.

And joining us from the States, Elena Favilli, co-founder and CEO of the media company Rebel Girls. Elena, good morning to you. Hello, good morning. And it really is morning with you, isn't it? So we're very grateful to you for talking to us. So tell us, tell us initially, first of all, actually, just about Rebel Girls, about what it sets out to do. Yeah, thank you. Rebel Girls mostly publishes books for children and tells stories that are trying to empower children and especially girls to dream bigger and take their life in their hands, really, and just aim higher and believe that they can do anything they want in life. So we started with two collections of bedtime stories about the life of extraordinary women from the past and the present, so from Cleopatra to Serena Williams.

And now we're coming out with this chapter book series. And the first book that is coming out tomorrow in the UK, actually, is Madam C.J. Walker builds a business together with Ada Lovelace, Cracks the Code. Yeah, there's such a brilliant, it's such a brilliantly simple idea. I wish I'd had it myself, but clearly I didn't. The idea of inspiring young women not to become a princess, but to start a business and to be somebody and something in the world. Were you surprised that no one had done it before, Elena? I was. I was. I've always worked in the publishing industry

and I've always been extremely passionate about children's publishing. So at some point I started thinking about all the books that I had loved the most when I was growing up. And I was stunned when I realized that all the main characters were male and that usually women and girls only had secondary roles. So I thought, wow, imagine thought that it could be extremely interesting even for children to read about stories of real women and not just imaginary characters. Well let's bring in Charlotte you you run one of Notting Hill in West London's best hair salons you've been doing it for a fair few years now how much did you know about this woman Madam CJ Walker? When I first went into hairdressing

in the 80s my boss always used to mention her name but i didn't i didn't know a lot about her because it was a very long time ago but i remember everybody used to um talk about how inspirational she was and how she built this business and you know most of the hair care that we used to use in the 80s came from America. So it was like it was all about this lady. But I didn't really look into it. I didn't like actually sort of go and look for her or anything. But it was just something that was always in conversations around the older generations that would mention her name. She was a name and people knew it. Definitely. But when you actually, I've read the book and honestly,

Elena, to talk about a tough start, I mean, she really did come from nothing, didn't she? Oh my God, yeah. She was working in a plantation, in a cotton plantation where her parents were once enslaved. And Sarah was actually, because her name originally was Sarah, and she later changed it to Madam C.J. Walker. But she was the first child in her family born free.

So she had to work throughout her childhood. She cooked, she cleaned, she picked cottons, she did laundry, she babysat. So it was definitely a tough start for her. Well, she was also orphaned when she was really tiny. And I think she went to live with an older sister and the brother-in-law was a bit of a... Do you know about this, Charlotte? Wasn't a nice guy? Yeah, it wasn't. They treated her terribly and she always felt sad. And from the bits that I've read, it wasn't a good time at all.

It was a terrible time. And do you know to what degree, Elena, she was welcomed into wider business society in the States at the time? Or was she always out on a limb slightly? Yeah, it wasn't easy for her, but she was, her story is incredible because she had such determination and and confidence. And she realized that even though she had an amazing product, people didn't really buy her products at first because they were skeptical. So she she changed her name and she did really this sort of rebranding, which is something, you know, completely unheard of for a woman of her time. And so she rebranded herself as Madame CJ, this fancy high society lady that's supposedly at the know-how and authority to help black women with their hair. And so she was able, finally, through this rebranding and a lot of advertisement, and of course, a great product to begin with, to build a business empire.

And the other amazing thing about her is that she wasn't really ashamed of her wealth. She really loved to show it off. She bought herself cars, fancy dresses, and even at the end of her life, a mansion with 34 rooms in upstate New York. Charlotte's face is lighting up at that. 34 rooms isn't bad, is it Charlotte? What was really significant, Elena, is that she obviously was operating initially at a time when there simply weren't the right products for black hair in the States. And in fact, I think at one point, she lost her hair, didn't she? Yeah, that's how she came up with the idea in the first place. So she started to lose her hair. But instead of falling into despair, she learned how to take care of it. And she invented her own recipe, her secret formula, as she called it, to bring her hair back. So she was definitely a self-starter, definitely an innovator and creator.

She had all the most amazing skills of, you know, the most talented entrepreneurs. It is interesting that obviously the products had to be invented because they didn't exist. Charlotte, it hasn't actually, if we're honest with ourselves, it's relatively recent that really decent hair products for black hair became available in this country. Yes, it's been a long time coming, but it's slowly changing. And there's so many really nice, ethical, organic brands that are coming up. So, yeah, it's a good time, but we still need more. We need more. You need more in the sense of better products

or they need to be available in every store? Yeah, they need to be available in every store. I mean, you have women that are travelling like six miles outside where they live to pick up products. I mean, you have a few here and there on the high street, but there's lots of different types of black hair. There's lots of different needs. So you can't just have two in boots or you need more.

You need more. You need a range. need um to cater for all the textures and i feel like it's very limited still yeah definitely definitely there needs to be more and they are not all affordable products either are they not not really and like um a lot of the ingredients are not that great there's not really a lot of research put into producing the products. Everyone's just jumping on the market thinking, oh, it's curly textures. Let me make a cream. Let me make this.

But, you know, they need to really research more and also just, you know, make it more accessible, more accessible. Yeah. What happened to Madam CJ Walker at the end of her life? Tell me she had a happy ending, Elena. Oh, yeah. Charlotte's shaking her head. She died young.

She did die quite young. Yeah, she died quite young. I thought that was quite sad. Yeah, that is true. But she, but, you know, overall, she lived a very fulfilling and happy life. She was able to fulfill her dreams and she left a lot of money to her daughter. She built her house, her dream house. So I think that we can say that her story had a happy ending. Yeah. All right. Thank you very much, indeed, for talking to us today.

And also we should say Rebel Girls' next project is a book about Ada Lovelace. That's right, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. That'll be coming out soon. Thank you both very much. Good to see you, Charlotte. Thank you. Now we are talking about those Monday mornings or maybe just horrible days when you've got a double lesson in something you don't like very much that's coming up and you'd much rather be at home with your laptop and a little bit of Netflix. Well obviously that didn't apply to me when I was at school but it certainly would apply to my daughters and indeed has applied to my daughters over relatively recent years. But what do you do when your child tries to tell you they're not well? It's often at the least convenient time imaginable about 20 past 7 on a morning when you've got to go to work and you may have a whole string of commitments and they say they're not well enough to go to school. For a start, they may not be telling the truth.

Equally, they might. Let's talk to clinical child psychologist, Dr. Anne Harrod-Rudkin from the University of Southampton. Welcome to the programme. And also here, the parenting journalist, Rebecca Schiller, who has two children, Rebecca Rebecca how old are they? They're six and nine. Right so they're still at primary school yes and do they do this have they said to you they've got one of those funny tummy eggs? Yes I mean we're lucky they both really enjoy going to school but we've definitely had quite a few examples of their definition of illness not quite being the same as mine. And what happens? What do you do? So my instinct is not to just dismiss them straight off and to give them a bit of a test.

So I tend to take their temperature and then I offer them their favourite breakfast, lull them into a bit of a false sense of security while they're eating it and have a chat with them. And if they haven't got a temperature, can manage to eat a breakfast and can string enough sentences together then unless it seems like there's something else going on they're going to school. And Anne-Harrad that's the difficult thing there might be something else going on how do you find out? It is really difficult

like Rebecca said so I think the best thing is get to know your child obviously but also think about what else is happening for them in their lives are they um not sleeping well are they not eating well in general is there something that's creating anxiety that might make you think i'm not sure if life is going particularly well for them at the moment we know that rebecca's tactic is to stay absolutely calm and just carry on i have to say that would indicate to me re Rebecca, you've got time on your side. These things always happen to me when I was 10 minutes from trying to fly out the house. So, but you actually do have a bit of time to play with, do you, first thing in the morning? So I'm pretty lucky that both my husband and I tend to work from home. I think my approach to it, if we were both in a rush to go to a meeting, might be slightly more hysterical. Yeah.

Okay. Well, don't look at me when you say hysterical. You might be on to something. So what about that? Do you prepare a breakfast, offer them food, see if they'll have it or not? I think that's a really good idea because what we do know is that having very clear boundaries is the best way forward. So as a parent, if your child says,

I've got a tummy ache, I don't want to go to school, if you just say, oh, well, OK, you don't have to go to school, that's not useful for your child because they'll never learn to deal with difficulties as they arise but what you don't also want to be is the other end of the spectrum where you're saying don't be ridiculous you're going into school whatever so somewhere in the middle where you're able to talk to your child and find out what's going on for them give them a nice breakfast if you can but if in doubt and the temperature is okay and they're not vomiting on your shoes then get them into school and talk

to them along the way what's happening Is there something that's bothering you? And if so, what can we do? So you can go in with a plan in place so that they can get through the day. Let me just read you some thoughts from the listeners. Anne says, I'm from a long line of northern matriarchs, and there's no illness my child can have that would warrant a day off school. Phil, I used to have to have a visible injury that plasters couldn't fix or be projectile vomiting to get a day off school. Phil, I used to have to have a visible injury that plasters couldn't fix or be projectile vomiting to get a day off school. My mum was tough. Another listener, if your child

knows that the answer is too ill to go to school means you stay in bed all day with just a book, they won't bother if they're not really ill. Okay, you're both nodding. And Harrod, that's right. Yes, I think it is. Yes, we could talk about push and pull factors what's pushing them away from school and that's usually things like bullying or friendship difficulties or worries about school work but also what are the pull factors what's keeping them at home for very few children it could be about concerns about their parents wanting to keep an eye on them but for most of them it'll be uh you know eight hours of fortnight and eating snacks all day and they're not ill are they if they're up to that no they're not ill and i think as a parent if you've got your tick box in your mind,

push-pull factors, what is going on for my child here, it might help you figure out what decision to make. But those friendship issues, Rebecca, I don't know if they've cropped up with your kids, but they're actually the hardest issues of all to fix, aren't they, as a parent? Absolutely, and I can remember the first time that my daughter, who's now nine, said that she didn't want to go to school, having loved school, because she was having some difficulties in her friendship group and I absolutely panicked I sent

an email to the head teacher and it all blew over in in 24 hours but we have had a few examples when she's had a mysterious tummy ache that turns out to be her way of telling me something's not right with her friends at school and I feel that on one of those occasions I have let her have a morning off and it was convenient for me she was pretty tired it was the end of term and she was obviously quite upset and I know that there are times when I have been upset and I have had to clear my day in order to get my head around something and I feel like I'm really lucky to have been able to do that for her. But actually giving her that time to talk about what's going on and to know that it will probably pass and that there are some options. We can talk to her teachers. We can, you know, look at getting her a book to help with this kind of thing.

It has given her a bit more confidence to go back to school and deal with that. And of course, the next day, everything's been fine. That's interesting. So actually, and Harrod, is the basic rule of thumb to take everything quite seriously. Don't dismiss your child ever. Yes, yes, but we're all humans

and we're all busy parents. And I think sometimes we don't listen quite as well as we should do. So, but I think on the whole, if you can listen to your child and just keep a careful eye out on them, if there are, say, changes around behaviour or sleeping and eating. And resilience, you know, it's a very trendy concept at the moment, resilience. And we can talk to our children all we like about resilience. But at the end of the day, you build up resilience by going into difficult, tricky situations.

So arming your child to go into school when they've got no one to sit with at lunchtime or they've got no one to play with and break time that's tough when you put it like that it is tough it is tough it is but we've all been there and we all grow by getting through those situations so we can't over protect our children because they will grow up to be adults who can't deal with tough times so there's a real balance to be had yeah and when a child moves to secondary school actually that can be trickier the the trans the transformation the transition transit that's it thank you the transition i'm a very menopausal day with language today just forgive me um the transition to secondary school can be quite tough it can and that can make everybody feel a bit more vulnerable so

what do you do at that stage because as a a parent, you're actually lesser, you might not know other parents and you might be more reluctant to go into the school. That's it. As parents of children in primary school, you're far more networked really. So you more likely know the parents of the children in your child's class. You get to secondary school, your child doesn't want you within a mile radius of the school. They certainly don't want you getting involved or interfering with their friendships, but at the end of the day they're still learning how to deal with them, so they have to accept if they're not going to school or if they're saying every day that they don't want to go to school, you are going to get involved and you're going to figure out ways with them

of helping the day get a bit better, whether that involves talking to the head of year or whether it involves texting a friend's parent. Right. But don't be afraid to get involved. But do you, though, tell the child what you're doing? Absolutely. You do? Absolutely. I think when it comes to any school refusal or any issues around anxiety, working together as a team is always the best.

So don't do it on the sly with that? No, no, don't do it on the sly because you will get found out, just as when your teenager does something on the slide, they will get found out. So open communication is the best and letting your child know, I know this is embarrassing for you and it probably feels a bit awkward, but I am going to go and email your head of year just to figure out what's going on and see if there's anything that we can do to help make going to school a bit better for you. Right. And you did say, Rebecca, that you have taken time out yourself when you just haven't felt right. The concept of mental health, particularly with cutting myself some slack it's a it's a learned skill something that I'm trying to trying to be better at um so just trying to talk about um you know I'm I'm feeling really stressed out at the moment I've got a lot on so I'm not going to be

able to do this thing because I need a bit of time to do some gardening or just watch some tv to make myself feel better um but then also trying trying to be a bit more tuned into them so I can see that with schoolwork, there seems to be a lot of pressure, even in primary school at the moment, target-related pressure. It doesn't feel like the school system that I was in as a primary school child.

That is the parenting journalist and mother of two, Rebecca Schiller, and you also heard from Dr Anne Harrod-Rodkin, who is a clinical child psychologist based at the University of Southampton. and mother of two, Rebecca Schiller. And you also heard from Dr. Anne Harrod-Rodkin, who is a clinical child psychologist based at the University of Southampton. Loads of emails and tweets from you on this. Here's an email from Ruth who says, I really struggled with my 13-year-old's attendance

at school last year. So I now allow her one sickie a term. I don't know, this might be the way forward. Anyway, she goes on. All other times she knows she has to go in unless she has a raging temperature or she's throwing up. So when she's having a moan and suggesting that she might not go in, I just ask her whether she wants to spend her sickie day today or whether she wants to leave it for later. Last year, her attendance hit 50% at one point.

That's not great, is it? But so far, says Ruth, with my new system, it is 100%. So that's interesting. She's obviously done something right. That is working. Anne says, daughter and I are both genuinely off sick from school and work. Thank goodness for Woman's Hour. We're both big fans of Rebel Girls and Madam C.J.

Walker. And yeah, well, you look forward to getting that book because it is interesting. It's such an amazing story, the story of C.J. Walker. This is from Yvonne, who says, I was advised by a GP's wife who drove a school bus to send a sick child to school unless they couldn't walk. I've got three adult children who rarely take time off from work. One of my children never missed a day's school. Wow, I used to be so jealous of those kids at primary school who won the attendance award. I mean, they were just the princes and princesses of the primary school, those people. Hard as nails. When my son, on moving to his new secondary school, started throwing sickies, I agreed to him

staying at home, but in bed and without television or any technology. Miraculously the sickies stopped immediately after one day of being bored. That's from Keith. Janet says, I am babysitting a primary one grandson who's

been sent home from school sick. I am a handy gran, says Janet. Yeah, you're putting in a shift, Janet, I'm sure. Well done to you. Kat just wanted to say there is nothing commendable about sending sick children to school no matter what. Those parents who send sick kids to school and spread their nasties around

because they've got a busy day of work ahead of them are both unkind to their children and a pain in the neck to the rest of the school community. I think that's reasonable and you're backed up by Maria who says my biology teacher and headmistress told us on day one of primary school not to come in if we had a cold but to keep our germs at home and not spread them around. Sound advice. You also recover faster. I wish more people would stop thinking it's right to keep going in all cases and this is from Jan

dreaded long division was my reason for feigned sore tummy but I got my appendix out the same day so I'm not sure whether you were trying to get a sickie and pretending you had a tummy ache only to discover that actually you really did have one and your appendix was taken out.

I think we need more on that one, Jan. But it's a good tweet, but there's not quite enough detail there. Jo says, I've never had a problem with my children in that way. If I thought they were trying it on, I would say to them, go to school and if you're still unwell later, call me and I'll come and collect you. Not once did this happen. They'd get to school and forget about

their tummy ache. What's this? My mother used to keep me off school only on rare occasions and then if I didn't go to school I had to stay in bed all day. So if I did pull a fast one it was such a boring day. It was actually better to go to school, says Hilary. A free-range chef says I used to go to the nurse a lot at secondary school as I was being bullied and I desperately didn't want to Yes, it is interesting that as you get older, you do think back to what you doled out to your mum and perhaps reassess it gently in later life. On the subject of the new BBC show Gold Digger, Jane says, I'm getting cross about your researchers letting you down, Jane.

There have been other shows on this theme. How could you forget The Mother with Anne Reid? I think that was a film, to be fair, wasn't it? The idea that my researchers could let me down. What researchers? No, I don't mean it. Let's move on and don't cut that out. Jill says, when are we going to stop being surprised that a younger man wants to go out with an older woman? Look at Emmanuel Macron. So many of us do. It's wonderful that his wife is so much older,

but still very glamorous. And he has so much bad press about this, whereas it's totally accepted for Donald Trump to have a wife far younger than himself. Here's Richard who says, At what point does it become relevant if the man is younger and what difference in age is relevant too? I was 16 and she was 26 the first time. We had a sexual relationship for over a year. In fact, Richard actually says it was a very sexual relationship for over a year.

To be fair, Richard was 16. So I suppose the energy was certainly not a problem. I'm now 64, says Richard, and I've had several relationships with older women in the intervening years, none of which mattered on the age front. What has age got to do with anything anyway, he says, including three question marks. Well, it's a good point, Richard. It is interesting, isn't it, that in the newspapers, age is always, it doesn't matter what the story is, you can have, I don't know, a prize-winning pig

or you can be suddenly made Home Secretary and whatever it is, whatever gender you are as well, your age will be referenced. It's still very much a thing. The classic older woman, younger man play is Terence Rattigan's The Deep Blue Sea, produced in many formats, including as a Radio 4 play, says Daniel Ward. Older man learning about women of all ages from you.

Thank you, Daniel. Nice to be somebody's younger woman. As an aged male listener, I'm not at all offended by the idea that there's more complexity in older women's lives than in mine regards says james brown thank you james and you don't give your age so we don't know quite how aged you are as one of our very welcome male listeners by the way keep listening and from anna it's such a shame that the main female character just doesn't look 60. She actually looks, in my view, a good 10 years younger. I'm 54. I looked at the images of the character, not the actress, and felt very old and worn.

Best wishes, she says. It's got a lot of attention, this Gold Digger series. And as I think I've tried to hint, I've only seen the first episode and I gather that I have been well and truly led up the garden path. It isn't what you think it is. So I'm now rather intrigued and I am going to watch more. Now, tomorrow, our guest is Elizabeth Strout, who I just think is one of the best novelists in the world. And she's on the program tomorrow and on the podcast as well. I'm Sarah Treleaven.

And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.