Woman's Hour - What's in a name?

Episode Date: December 31, 2020

What do our first names really say about us? More than you might think, according to Dr Jane Pilcher, Associate Professor at the University of Leicester. She claims that our names often reveal important clues about our age, social class and ethnicity that might affect the way that we are treated by other people. She joins Jane, along with name expert and the founder of the British Baby Names website, Eleanor Nickerson to discuss what's in a name.How has this classic British name become synonymous with being middle of the road? The actor Jane Asher turned 71 earlier this month and was born in the year that Jane entered the UK top 50. Jane Brody celebrated her 30th birthday last week and was born the year after Jane stopped being a UK top 100 name. Woman's Hour listener Victoria Smillie wanted to change her surname following her divorce, but realised in doing so that she had never been happy with her given name, Lesley, either. So she changed both. They are joined by another of our listeners, Tracy, who truly hates her name but can't quite bring herself to lose it. By the age of three, Esther Robertson had had three different first names and surnames. Esther joins Jane to discuss how her changing name has affected her life.The author Charlotte Mendelson keeps lists of names and can deliberate for hours about what to call the characters in her novels. She joins us along with the journalist and editor Alex Clark to discuss the best and worst names in books.Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Laura Northedge.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. The subject today is names, partly because I've had a bit of a bee in my Woman's Hour bonnet for quite some time about being called Jane, which some people think is a little bit dull. Some of those people who think it's a little bit dull include me

which is why I wanted to investigate the subject of names and whether they actually really do impact on your life in any significant way. So we're going to talk very seriously about names about there's one listener taking part this morning whose name was changed three times when she was just a little girl. You can hear too from a woman who changed her name because frankly she hugely disliked it. There's another listener who almost did but then decided not to and is still Tracy, a slightly unwilling one. And we also talked too about the significance of names in literature. Now we're not live today. We'd still like your input.

You can email the programme via the website anytime you like or tweet away at BBC Women's Hour. And you can also follow us there on Instagram at BBC Women's Hour too. So it is a legal requirement. Everybody has to have a name. You may love it. You may hate it. If you're called Jane, let's be honest about it. Chances are you are probably white, you're female, you're middle-aged,

and you're quite possibly lower middle class. Class is something we're still a little bit careful when we talk about it in this country but nevertheless it has a huge part to play in all this. Dr Jane Pilcher is one of my guests this morning, Associate Professor of Sociology at the University of Leicester. Welcome to you Jane and also here Eleanor Nickerson who is the owner, the runner, the person in charge of the British Baby Names blog. Welcome to you, Eleanor. You're not called Jane at all? No, no Jane at all, unfortunately. You say unfortunately because the best people clearly are called Jane,

even if they feel a little bit edgy about it. That guffaw, by the way, was from the novelist Charlotte Mendelsohn. We'll hear from her in a moment. And your middle name is? I don't normally reveal it in even real life, let alone on air, but as I'm among friends, Jane. Great, okay. Eleanor, you've done a lot of research in this area.

When did you get interested in baby names? Oh, when I was a child. I used to rifle through the Argas catalogue and look at the figurines and see what their names were and go, oh no, she doesn't suit the name Charlotte and that sort of thing. And when I was 13, I went and bought my first baby name book and was absolutely terrified that people would think that I was an underage pregnant due to be mother.

But it's just something I've always been fascinated with. And my family just got fed up with me talking about it really. So they just told me to write my own website. And people come to you for inspiration and advice, do they? Yeah, so I get quite a lot of people contacting me asking for specific advice about a name dilemma they're having but in general i just research lots of statistics and put all that information up on my website you are also a primary school teacher i am so you're with small children i mean have you got any exotic names in your in your class right

now um i suppose the most exotic i've got at the moment, I've got a little boy called Marcel and a little girl called Carmen. So I suppose they're the most exotic that I've got. But nothing completely crazy and out there? No. The most popular names in Britain. Tell us then, Eleanor, the official stats from the last year we have the information for,

which I gather was 2015. Yeah. So the top five girls was Amelia, Olivia, Emily, Isla and Ava. And for boys, it was Oliver, Jack, Harry, George and Jacob. Now, the girls' names ending in A, that's always been a thing, has it? At the moment, we've got a decided fashion for names ending in A for a girl or an E sounds, particularly two-syllable names. If they're two syllables, they're really trendy at the moment, really hot property.

For boys, a lot of names ending in N or O are quite fashionable. And what does that tell you, Jane, about how we perceive gender? What do you say? Can we take it as seriously as that, do you think? I think the gender name is the most important determinant of choosing a name. Something like 97% of names for a child are only given to the children of the same gender. So that we rely on names to indicate people's sex category or their gender. And I think what you're saying about the trends in sounding of names these come and go but often boys names are short simple structured names and girls have this kind of more kind of lilting pretty sound to them and that's part of the way in which we distinguish between boys and girls because names are more than just nouns names

are actually i think of them as adjectives. They're jam-packed with information about people. And we rely on that information to know how to react to people, what we can expect from them, and those kinds of things to kind of express our ideas about how they should be. And it's actually a very unsophisticated business. We don't really have that many names that you could apply to both female and male, do we? No, I mean, there are very few gender neutral names in use. And, you know, despite the kind of changes that have happened in gender relationships over the last 20 to 30 years...

Well, even in the last five years, but go on. There hasn't been a discernible increase in the amount of gender neutral forenames given to children. People still want to clearly indicate which category their child belongs to by giving them a definitely boy's name or a definitely girl's name so there's no ambiguity about who they are in those terms. What I find interesting about the gender is that when a name is a unisex name as soon as it starts going towards more girls then it's almost becomes it's not allowed to be used for boys but it's not the same the other way around it's almost like it's okay for

a boy's name a traditionally masculine name to be used on a girl because it's all right in our society for a girl to be boyish but for a boy to have what's seen as a traditionally or slightly more feminine name is a definite no that is bound But that is bound to change. I mean, with the sort of gender fluidity and, frankly, the more sophisticated set-up we are now having. What do you think, Jane? There's an American study that shows as soon as any sort of gender-neutral names get starting more to be used by girls, then the boys' usage drops off a cliff.

And it's to do with gender contamination, isn't it? Gender contamination? The male can be contaminated by the female, but not the other way around. Yes, the boy gets damaged by association with femininity, even if that's only indicated by the full name. No, I don't think we have. That's why we still have tomboys,

and it's okay to be a tomboy, but it's not okay the other way around. Eleanor, when people come to you for advice, are they looking for inspiration to give their child a name that won't be silly but will be distinctive? That is the golden sort of area that most people want to be in, in my experience. They want a name that isn't popular but is not unusual.

It's that magic sort of almost imaginary area. They're all looking for that usable but uncommon name. OK, so what are the tips? Let's say you're pregnant now and you can't make your mind up. You're the woman. What are the up-and-coming hot names for baby girls? Well, the ones that I think are definitely going to be in the top 100 very soon, look out for Iris, Edith, Ariana, Orla,

Aurora and Bonnie particularly. For boys, Arlo is going to be massive. I know an Arlo. Go on. Albie, Lincoln, Ralph, Ezra. Lincoln? Lincoln, yes. Why Lincoln? That's very popular up in the north of the country at the moment.

In the Lincoln area? I mean, actually, it's bizarre. It's a lovely city, a fine cathedral in Lincoln, but why? I'm still puzzled. Why Lincoln? I think it's just because it sounds like a lot of popular names. It's all the sound because you've got Leighton, it's becoming quite popular, you've got Lennon,

so Lincoln, it sounds like all those trendy, fashionable names. I am baffled, I have to say, by the place name thing. I mean, sometimes you do get... Young girls at my daughter's primary school would be called China or India. And I always thought that India...

Well, actually, why? Why would you call your child after a huge country or a subcontinent? I don't get it at all. I think it's just whether it sounds right. You're not likely to call your child Bulgaria, but you might call them Odessa, because, oh, it sounds nice.

Odessa, might you? Yeah, some people do. I think it's all about the sound. It's not really. I mean, some parents do name their child Bali because they went on honeymoon there and they have all these nice links to it. But mostly it's just because they think it sounds nice. And what about the idea of people living up to their names or living down to them? I've always thought it's a tough one.

Grace is a beautiful name, but calling your daughter Grace or your daughter Patience. But I don't know. What do you think, Eleanor? In some ways, the names take on more than just their literal meaning. I think if we all got bogged down with what the names literally mean, I mean, every Alfie, it means essentially advised by elves. So I don't think we need to... That's the definition of Alfred?

Yes. Advised by elves? Yeah. Obviously, what it meant to the Anglo-Saxons is probably much more deeper than that, or just combining two common name elegance together and there you go, bish, bash, bosh, done. We don't know, but to us it translates as advice of elves.

So it sort of doesn't make sense to us, but yeah, it's a name that's come down through history, so we still use it. So I don't necessarily think that the traditional meaning of a name is that important for many parents these days, especially as you can put so many different interpretations on them. What about class then? I'm careful to say class, not class.

But do you understand the part it plays in all this? Eleanor, what would you say? Because if you look at the broadsheet newspapers, top popular names of any year, then they're very different from the national trends. They are. I mean, every year I analyse the top names that have been announced in The Telegraph and The Times, and they always are quite different to the national trends? They are. I mean, every year I analyse the top names that have been announced in the Telegraph and the Times

and they always are quite different to the national. So, for example, last year, 2016, the top names in the Telegraph were Florence, Alice, Poppy and Edward, Henry and Frederick. And then a bit lower down, you've got Constance and Otterley joint at 12th, Wilfred is number 8 and Hector's number 16. So there are certain names that you don't tend to get outside of certain demographics for

example Lincoln is in the top 100 up in the northeast and in the northwest but it doesn't appear in the top 100 down in the south or in the midlands at all. But I think some parts of the country do have a tradition of giving mothers surnames as first names, don't they? Yeah, so we definitely see more surnames are more popular up north, so Hunter and Carter, Cooper, not only are they fashionable at the moment but also they've got the trendy surname sound. So with any demographic, there's always names that are seen

as acceptable and not acceptable. So you hear the name Tarquin and I think most of us would assume that that person is quite posh if we met someone called Tarquin. I think you would make that assumption. Rupert, Camilla, these are all names that only certain groups of people will ever have. Absolutely. And I think there was a theory that when Princess Diana died that Diana would become popular and actually it didn't, did it? No and I think a name, I mean I think there's a lot of chatter around when a celebrity names their baby or you know a celebrity dies about whether a

name is going to become popular but it very much needs to fit in with the trends at the time for it to go anywhere so a very famous celebrity could name their child pomegranate it's not going to become popular but if they name their child, say, Lacey, then everyone's going to go, oh, that's brilliant. That sounds just like Maisie and Daisy. So it sounds like other popular names. I'll go for it. I'll have a bit of Lacey. All right. Thank you very much, Eleanor.

I have hinted then that being called Jane is both a blessing and a curse. And, of course, it is one of those. It's a word used to illustrate average, unremarkable, dull, hence Jane Doe, plain Jane, all the rest of it. We've grown up with this stuff for decades. We're going to talk very frankly now about the sheer first world problem of being called Jane. We've managed to find a young Jane, Jane Brodie, who's an art director. Welcome to the programme, Jane. Hello, thank you.

Let's just shamelessly out you as being born in 1987. And I gather that was the year the name Jane left the top 100 names. Yes, I just learnt that this morning. How amazing. And are you the only Jane you know? I grew up as the only Jane that I knew and I actually met another young Jane just seven years ago now. And yeah, but otherwise... We bonded. We bonded instantly and we're very

very good friends. Oh that's great. Jane Pilcher is still here. We've both ascertained that we are peak Janes both born in 1964 and Jane Asher is our celebrity Jane currently appearing in an American in Paris which is going down an absolute storm. Jane welcome to the program. Good morning. How are you? Very much good morning.. I'm fine, thank you. And am I right in saying you were born in 1946? I was, indeed. So if you're peak, Jane, what am I, a sort of pre-peak? You are, well, I'm sure you're far from your peak. From what I can gather, you're about to hit it, but you're nowhere, not quite near there yet. You were born just as the name Jane entered the top 50.

Oh, I see. So I was sort of pre-peak. Yes. Kind of on the way up. Yeah. And I mean, what do you think about it? Has it ever been a problem for you in any way? I've always really enjoyed being called Jane. I know quite a few people who don't like their own names, which I always think is very sad.

I've always liked Jane. It's sort of simple, very, very English. I always tend to think of Jane Eyre, Jane Austen, those lovely Janes from the past that were brilliantly talented and, in Jane Eyre's case, found true love, although she was very plain. So I've always liked the name a lot. But presumably, because you were not common,

like me and the other Jane in the studio, when you were born and christened Jane, you didn't know a lot of Janes, so you weren't one Jane amongst thousands. I don't think I did know many Janes. No. No, I've never really thought about it, but I don't think I did.

Just thinking of another, Jane Birkin? Jane Birkin I've met, and of course I'm a great admirer of hers, huge fan. She was just stunningly beautiful, still is really clever and attractive and intelligent and wonderful. Yes, she's great. I think I did meet her a few times. Now, she was Jane. We were just talking about the Y in Jane,

because that changes the name Jane. Why is it that I get so upset if people put a Y in my name? How can they possibly know from the sound of it? But there's something about somebody misspelling your name that makes one irritated out of all proportion. I mean, it shouldn't at all. Yes. I know I'm definitely without the Y.

Oh, well, I think absolutely. There's nobody with a Y in this room right now, I tell you. And young Jane, as I'm now calling you Jane. Hello. You've never had the Y and you looked very affronted at the suggestion you might have one. Absolutely. I think that's the joy of Jane is everyone can spell it. But now and again, you will get people asking if there's a Y in it.

And yes, for some reason reason that's almost offensive. Did you grow up then amongst lots of other Janes, Jane? I didn't actually, no. My friends were basically the other top ten names of the time, so Tracy, Sharon, Debbie, those kinds of names. I mean, I looked at the top ten names names for 1960s and they were all my friends. So I didn't feel odd because I was a Jane because it was all part of that kind of grouping of names at the time.

Well Tracy will feature later in the programme because that is a name with a certain amount of bagage to say the very least. I don't know whether Jane Ashley you'll be delighted to hear that there were 28 baby girls who were called Jane in 2015. Oh that's nice. I'm very pleased to hear that there were 28 baby girls who were called Jane in 2015. Oh, that's nice.

Yes. I'm very pleased to hear that. Well, I'm sure part of it would be in tribute to you, but it does suggest... Oh, come on. We'll do anything to get you on. It does suggest that the name might be making a quiet comeback. That would be good to hear.

It would, actually. Jane, young Jane, as we have to call you to distinguish you from everybody else, has being Jane been in any way a burden? I mean as we have to call you to distinguish you from everybody else, has being Jane been in any way a burden? I mean, I have to say the fact that it goes with plain is a bit of a nightmare. Yes, I had that a bit as a child growing up when people realised that they could

rhyme our names with plain, Jane, Jane. But once you got over that, it's brilliant. You can't shorten it. Everyone can spell it. It's great. I mean, the only problem maybe is people always say, oh, Tarzan, I'm Tarzan. I don't know if you guys get that. Oh, do they? No, for young people.

No? I don't get it much. I wish I did. It'd be fantastic. Jane Asher, thank you very much and carry on having such a great success in American in Paris. Thank you so much. Very good to talk to you and we, Jane, should stick together. Absolutely. All the very best. Thank you so much. Very good to talk to you and we Janes should stick together. Absolutely. All the very best. Thank you. That's Jane Asher who's very, very busy

on stage in the West End right now. It is interesting, the whole, is it the fact that it rhymes with plain that secretly Jane Pilcher is getting on my wick

and has done for 52 years? Is that it? Partly, I think, but it's also with Jane Eyre she was portrayed as a very plain character in terms of her looks at least if not her personality and I think, but it's also with Jane Eyre, she was portrayed as a very plain character in terms of her looks at least, if not her personality.

And I think there are associations people make between names. They're not necessarily correct associations, but people do make these associations between names and character traits. Young Jane, you just don't know what it's been like. No, I can imagine. For me, it's a name that everybody knows, but I was the only Jane until I met my more recent Jane friend,

who was an extraordinary human. So the Janes, whenever we meet, we seem to all get very excited because we're such a rare species. Does anyone ever linksen your name to Janey? People ask me if it's short for Janet. Oh, no. Did you get that? No, I've never had that.

That's because your name is so exotic in your generation people are genuinely mystified is it short for janet well you've been a great sport thank you jane thank you brody nearly called you you know what but i didn't i got out of it just at the end there thank you very much pleasure thank you and because it's a bank holiday boy are we treating you today and we've only got a quiz go to to the Woman's Hour website, bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour, and we've got a quiz called What's in a Name? See if you know your Barbie from your Bono.

Go on. You know you want to. I mean, what else is there to do today? You've been to the garden centre. You've probably done a bit of recycling. Don't forget, you must follow Woman's Hour on Instagram, or you'd just become a little tiny bit of a social pariah, somebody that the neighbours really won't want to know. Follow us on Instagram at BBC Women's Hour.

We're going to talk now about changing your name and why you might be tempted to change it. I know surnames are, women have been expected over the years to change their surnames, but what about changing your first name? What might inspire you to do it? Tracey Alexander is in our studio in Exeter. Tracey, good morning to you. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. And in our studio in Norwich, we have Victoria Smiley. Victoria, hello to you too. Hello. Now, you have a great story. We'll talk to you in a second.

But Tracey, first of all, you emailed the programme about being called Tracey. Now, what motivated you to do that? I think I must have just heard your trailer. And I just it just resonated with me because I really have spent a long time not liking my name. I was also born in 1964, actually. And my best friend was Jane. And my other best friend was Debbie. So you know, we're in the zone. Yes, we are. And I think I didn't mind my name when I was smaller and probably didn't take any notice of it whatsoever but it most people our age will remember they used to magazine called viz yes and in viz there were the fat slags and the fat slags were Tracy and Sharon yay and then there was birds of a feather and yes again we have

Tracy and Sharon yay and then all of a sudden I went from just having an ordinary name like Jane and Debbie I would swap with Jane by the way anyway but Jane and Debbie but mine had all those connotations that weren't nice they weren't talented and aspirational and beautiful or anything like that they were like Tracy and Sharon I don't need to explain that really do I and also to be blunt uh we we and the class thing. Tracy is, is it primarily, overwhelmingly a working class name? Well, I don't think that was what bothered me about it, because I'm sure there are lots of other names you could say that about. I think it is literally just the fact that the Tracy's the tar, isn't it? The Tracy's the, or like in the Archers,

who's the person that's trying to get in Roy's pants? It's Tracy Orobin. Actually, it's funny you mention that. to get in Roy's pants? It's Tracy Orobin. It's funny you mention that. Yes, you're quite right. It's almost the sex thing. It's just like, yeah, that's just what it means. And why would anyone want to be a Tracy? That's the trouble now.

Anyone who knew any of those programmes, no one would want to ever be a Tracy. I am sorry, Mum, by the way. I know, I know. Yes, Victoria. Hello. What is your real name? Victoria. Well done, yes. Victoria. What is your real name? Victoria. Well done, Victoria.

Good. I've been Victoria now for over 20 years. And before that? I started out as a perfectly reasonable and relatively unusual name in 1949, Leslie. And what was wrong with Leslie? Nothing really other than the fact it got confused because Leslie, talking about gender before, and Leslie can be either male or female

and I got fed up explaining that. Plus, when I was at grammar school, there was a certain coterie of younger girls who decided to call me Leslie Bean. And at the time, I didn't really know what it meant, but I knew it wasn't intended to be flattering. I see. And so when you could, you decided to make the change yourself. Yeah. But I mean, what did you wait for, Victoria? Did something have to happen before that was possible? Several things. I was divorced. My parents had died. I don't think I would have done it had they still been alive. Right. But what I had found out beforehand is that mother had sent father to register me as Leslie Victoria

to be named after her favourite brother and a favourite uncle, Victor. And father was in such a fluff. He forgot about the Victoria bit. Once I found out I should have been Victoria, I decided I was going to be Victoria eventually. That's how I was. And Smiley is my mother's maiden name. And I really like the upbeat quality of it. I think you're right. You know, Victoria Smiley is a lovely name. It's a pleasure to say. And you sound a very cheery positive person has it has it impacted on the way you are and the way you conduct yourself um it definitely does feel different i don't want to you know as i say reject my parents and my first husband because i'm married

for the second time and when i got married this last time, I'd said beforehand, I said, I'm not changing my name. And I haven't. And he's fine with it. And what about your friends who knew you by your other name? Have they kept the old name or have they all been converted? It's a mix. My big sister, I was talking to her on the phone the other day,

and she said, say something about what a model it was. You know, it was difficult for other people to remember at first. And she's been very good. I've got another very dear girlfriend who refers to me as LV. I see, yeah. Because she can manage that, but she never quite calls me Victoria. I see, yeah. didn't change your first name why not well I was never going to really change my name anyway but it's just um when I um had to sort of choose an alias because I'm a writer and I decided I didn't want to use my real name there obviously was an opportunity there to reinvent myself but although

I had played around uh sometimes with my boyfriend who is now my husband being called Esmeralda when we went out to dinner I sometimes used to call myself that which I suppose in my head I must have thought was the opposite of Tracy somehow when it came down to it the idea that I would be in a classroom or with teachers because I go into schools and people would all be shouting Phoebe Phoebe Phoebe and I wouldn't be answering because I'm Tracy obviously and I don't really feel like a Phoebe and I don't feel like an Esmeralda nor do I feel like a Jane a Debbie a Samantha or whatever unfortunately I probably do feel like a Tracy so it seemed a bit like much as it would be really nice to give myself some lovely highfalutin or classic or I don't know some other name deep down I really am Tracy so I'm proud of

it well I suppose so I mean I suppose it's okay I mean I have spent an awful lot of time going to parties and I seem to meet Sharon's all the time I've got several Sharon friends and a few people when I first met them I've gone oh you too and they look at me really strangely because they like their names and I just assume everybody this is where you have to be very careful of course yes well I'm obviously not because it's sort of, I find it unbelievable that anybody could like their name if they were called Tracy or Sharon. Have you, you've got your own children?

I have. And? Well, this is funny, isn't it? Earlier on, you were talking about names that aren't popular, but not kind of weird. Yes. Well, when I was about 25 or something like that, I was waiting to go to some posh thing at Birmingham University with my boyfriend.

And I was wearing a really horrible red dress and I looked horrible. I looked like a horrible Tracy in a horrible red dress. And this girl swanned in and she had on a beautiful little black empire line thing. This is 28 years ago, you know, so this is how much it affected me. And she walked in and someone introduced me and her name was Honor O'Reilly. And I just remember thinking if I was called Honor, I'd look like that. But I'm called Tracy and I look like this. And so my daughter is called?

She's not called Honor, is she? She's called Honor. Thank you, Tracy. And thank you, Victoria. And you can tweet at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email. This is from Carol who said, my name's Carol because my birthday is close to Christmas. I happen to have naturally blonde hair. In the 70s, when I was in my 30s, I noticed that whenever there was a TV or radio drama that involved the other woman,

she was always a 35-ish blonde and always called Carol. Right, I'm reading this email out because it certainly isn't funny, but it does illustrate that the name thing can be quite a weighty issue it's from a listener who says i hate my name it is myra i have only ever met another myra myra hindley when i taught in holloway prison i used to walk in each morning and we greet each other good morning myra good morning myra she too had never met another myra the name in common made for a rather strange and intimate relationship. Total extremes with an intimate, ghoulish to others connection. I mean, that is a very, there's nothing really anybody can say about that, except it certainly makes you think about this.

This is from Joanne. I was shy growing up and I had a boring name, neither of which did me much good. I like Joanne, actually. Fearing that my children may inherit my timidity, I decided to give them unusual names in an effort to encourage them to be extraordinary. which did me much good. I like Joanne, actually. Fearing that my children may inherit my timidity, I decided to give them unusual names in an effort to encourage them to be extraordinary. So Epiphany, who's 25, is working in West End Theatre,

and Felix, who's 23, is a musician living in London. They are both loving their jobs, and I know their names have been beneficial in getting them where they are. From Karen, I am a Karen. From that you can possibly deduce roughly my maximum age, and I am 57. Karen was a popular name in the 60s, yes, we've discussed that, though not as common as Sharon, Tracy, Julie or Susan.

I like the name Karen. I have a little naff key ring with what is a Karen on it, and it gives an insight into what someone called Karen may be like and it's me to a T. I do think your name has an influence albeit small on your personality as you grow up. I'm sure if I've been called Dorothy or Barbara I would have turned out totally differently so that's interesting. Now this is a life experience that I think is a very particular one it's that of Esther Robertson who is in our studio in Edinburgh this morning. Good morning to you, Esther. Good morning. Good morning. Now, you're from actually,

you're from the great city of Glasgow, am I right? But you're in our studio in Edinburgh. That's correct. Yes, Jane. Now, I really want you, in your own words, to tell us your story, because in your childhood, your name was changed a number of times. But just explain why. Well, basically, basically Jane my name changed every time my home did. I had three different names before I was three. My biological mother named me Catherine Anne Lindenberg and then I was adopted by the Robertsons and they called me Esther Robertson. I was there for less than six months and the adoption fell through. And then I was Doreen Anne Graham.

I was fostered there. And then I was Esther Robertson again. I went back to the Robertsons. So I've had quite a few names. And my favourite name, I would say, is Esther Robertson, although I really, really like Catherine Anne Lindenberg. Yes, which was your first name. My first name, yes. Now, it's a puzzling story. I mean, the good side is that actually a lot of it escaped you completely because you were so young, you don't actually

remember it, do you? I don't actually. I think as a result of all that, I didn't speak till I was about six. So I the in my early years I think I must have sort of taken on board all the confusion and I just became very solitary and and didn't talk at all so I think that had a great effect on me. Now what do you actually know now for certain particularly about that part of your life when you were fostered by the Robertsons, they were going to adopt you and then you had to leave. Yes, I had to leave. My adoptive mother, she was married to a minister, my adoptive father, and she couldn't handle it because I was a baby and she had teenagers of her own. So I was fostered out to the Grahams. So I was Doreen Ann Graham, which I always think

sounds, it's my least favourite name, actually. I always think it sounds like a sort of Coronation Street name. And then perhaps slightly bizarrely to a lot of people's ears, you went back to the Robertsons, the family who didn't think they could look after you. Yes, that's right. I went back to the Robertsons again. So I've not met many Esthers in my life. When I was young, the only Esthers I knew were sort of Esther Williams, the swimmer. Yes. And I saw the film Esther Hoffman Howard, A Star Is Born, and that's what she was called.

Because I was born in the 60s so it was quite a rare name then. Well, of course, your first surname, Lindenberg, does suggest that you have Jewish links and it's a great Jewish name, of course. Yes, it's a sort of German-Jewish name and it's funny because I've been to drama school and my stage name that I was Esther Lindenberg.

So I married the old name and the new name together. It is interesting though, isn't it? That although you can't remember it, you do know that you were a long time speaking. You were a long time coming round to speaking, perhaps because so much had happened to you in your very young life that you just couldn't compute it all? Yes, I mean, I think it's had quite a profound effect on my life. I think I'm slightly dyslexic because I didn't really cognitively develop as any normal child would because I'd had so many...

Well, I'd had the three names before I was three and I just think that's had a profound effect on many aspects of my life. It is really significant isn't it when somebody, I suppose to be honest most of us take it for granted, but when somebody simply calls your name have you tried to dredge your memory for any of those early experiences at all? I've tried, but they're just not there. The strongest name there is Esther Robertson. And it was strange because I've got a social work file which is extremely thick of all the correspondence

about my different placements. And, you know, it's strange. It's like reading about somebody else it's not like me at all I seem quite removed from it it's like another life which it is another life but I don't connect to that life it's just all down on paper. You do sound a remarkably cheery soul and I think listeners will be hoping that you've had a happy ending so tell me that you have yes I have yes I have I'm very very proud of my name Esther Robertson and it served me very well and as I say I love my biological name Catherine Ann Lindenberg but I've become very close to this name Esther Robertson and yeah I'm just really proud of it actually. Esther lovely to

talk to you thank you very much indeed. Charlotte Mendelsohn is here the author of the Booker Prize long-listed novel Almost English. Charlotte welcome to the programme and we can also talk to the editor and journalist Alex Clark who's in her studio in Bath. Alex good morning to you. Morning. So we're talking now about literature and about the importance of characters' names in literature and the power of some of these characters. Charlotte, when you're writing, is it hugely important to choose the right name for your main character, your protagonist? I do spend a lot of time actually looking on baby name websites and long, peculiar documents that you can find only in pdfs because i agree with you i think names are so rooted in the class the the sort of tribal origins the racial origins everything to do with the parents of the protagonist so even though i'm not writing

about the parents i have to get the name because they've impacted on your character haven't absolutely and also as a reader it's incredibly irritating when the name isn't quite right within the context of the book. So, for example, everyone's name begins with E or the name sounds slightly similar. And I have, well, very strong views about most things. But one of the things I have strong views about is when you meet someone in real life and they don't really have the right name for themselves. So I'm very keen to avoid that. What do you mean they don't have the right name for themselves? You know, when you meet somebody and they're called Sandra and you think

you're not really a Sandra though, are you? You're actually a Vivian. Alex, there are names of characters in books that I suppose tell you about the kind of book you're reading. If you're reading a thriller then there's a fair chance that the protagonist will be called a particular sort of name. Oh, well, Jack Reacher,

I suppose, is the one who kind of instantly occurs to us. But yes, I mean, really characters who are strongly named. They're some of the most famous fictional characters. You know, Mrs. Pecksniff, Inspector Bucket, Edwin Drood, Uriah Heep, Scrooge. Those are all slightly onomatopoeic Dickens names. But when we come on board up to date, things like Widmerpool, Yossarian, Holden Caulfield, they all happen to be men. Now, I'm not sure if that's telling. Yes, quickly, go for some female names.

Exactly. Well, I'm about to return us to the 70s now. And specifically the late 70s in a run of wonderful novels. Imogen, Prudence, Emily, Harriet, Bella, Octavia. This is before Jilly Cooper went full horse mad. Yes. And those names were really intended to evoke something. And she never wrote a book called Tracy, did she?

She never, never did. But interestingly, Tracy was really interesting because absolutely about the class thing. When we were talking about that, the last book by Zadie Smith, Swing Time, there is an unnamed character who goes off to do all sorts of things. And there is a named character who doesn't. And that named character is called Tracy. And Zadie Smith has form in that because when you think of something like NW, there is a character whose journey out of her class

actually takes the form of her changing her name from Keisha to Natalie. So, you know, it's written all through the history of fiction. There is a certain artificiality to all this though, Charlotte, because in real life, most of us are called the same sort of names or even the same name. I've got friends who are called, actually, no, I don't have a single friend called Jane. I was just exaggerating.

It's because you're anti-Jane. Yes. But I suppose there are plenty of people in my social circle with the same name. But that never happens in a book. You never get two Charlottes or two Alexes, do you, in the same book? Well, it's fun playing with that. And I like, I mean, most people have nicknames, especially with their partners and their families. So sometimes I try and find a name that will work with an abbreviation or with a nickname. But you have to be very careful not to confuse the reader, because I think one of the most frustrating experiences as a reader, unless you're reading War and Peace, is when you're back going, what was that, Ellie or Eleanor?

I don't understand. Is this the same person? So, yes, of course, there is a sort of world you create in which no one has the same name. Whereas in real life, they're all called Ruby. What about selling books, your name, Charlotte Mendelsohn? To me, that's rather a sellable name. Yes? Well, it's funny because I grew up not even noticing Mendelsohn was peculiar. And my main Mendelsohn struggle was that no one in English can spell it. I realise now that if I was called Charlotte Jones, it probably would have been less helpful. It's quite difficult writing it on passport forms. There's a lot of syllables that squish in.

Oh, don't look to me for sympathy for that. Alex, what would you say about that? I mean, you have to do something with, well, no, Alex Clark. Well, you see, but you could do great things with my name in fiction because I could be a gender perplexity, couldn't I? I could be thought to be a man when I'm about to commit a crime and turn out to be a female culprit. That's interesting. Can I nick that, actually?

Oh, go ahead. Well, actually, you see, you are definitely female because I've seen you. But if you were a little bit more androgynous, it would be... I wrote, actually, I did have a little bit more androgynous, it would be. I wrote, actually, I did have a character who was androgynous. Oh, you met them and they were female, but you thought they were male. Actually, Alex Clark, I've missed a trick. As an editor, Alex, would you ever tell an author that name's hopeless? I mean, it's just boring. Well, I wouldn't touch it. I mean, I don't edit fiction. And I think that would be I guess you would say this isn't really summing up the character to me but the whole

idea of nominative determinism is sort of interesting in itself. Do people really become their names? Who knows? But it's interesting, it comes up in a book that I know that is very popular among your readers and many people, the Elena Ferrante books where you have these two characters

and you have Elena, the narrator, who also becomes Lenu, Lenucia. You have Lila, the kind of biggest character in the book, also Raffaella, Lina. It's all about trying to escape yourself. So it's interesting, isn't it? Charlotte, you're nodding. Actually, if you're editing a book,

I know you do sometimes, would you change characters' names? Well, I was an editor for 20 years and very opinionated about really virtually everything anyone ever tried to do. And I frequently tried to make people change characters names because it's very often people do give a character a name that isn't, I think, right for their class or for their family. So if you have someone, it happened really recently, actually, if you have someone who's called Clive, but I don't really think he'd be a Clive, then I think it's really important to change it because you don't want the readers to think, hang on, that's weird. And maybe not all readers are quite as picky as me, but some are. I guess you don't want it to be a distraction.

Yeah, exactly. You don't want to be going through the book being tripped up by a name. I mean, with Russian novels of the 19th century, it's part of the joy and the irritation that you're constantly having to flip backwards and forwards, thinking, hang on, which of these syllables could possibly be in this person's name? Is this the same person? I can't tell anymore. There are names in fiction. I'm just thinking Peter Pan, so Wendy.

Wendy was a made-up name. Was made up by J.M. Barrie for that book. Alex, that's right, isn't it? Yes, I think that's absolutely right. And then look what he unleashed. All his wind eye. Whereas it hasn't happened, you know, there aren't Malaprops and Grinches and Yahu's all over the place, are there?

Uriah's all over North West London. It's interesting, isn't it, when we think about the children's books that we read, because that's where a lot of these names really bed in, isn't it? I had a terrible distrust of anyone called Gwendolyn after Mallory Towers. I feel terrible now. What did Gwendolyn do? Well, she was horrid.

Gwendolyn was just a horrible, whiny, manipulative, opposite to the wonderful Sally and Daryl, the flawed Daryl. But, Jane, I think that the reason there are so many Milos is because so many of us read The Phantom Tollbooth at an impressionable age and thought, as I did, Milo, what a cool name. And somehow that stuck in the popular consciousness and then Milo rolled out.

The book you've referenced there is something I've literally never heard of. It's quite niche. Is it? OK. So obviously there were three of us who'd read it and then referred to it quite a lot. But Miley was a very cool name when I came across it in that book. Think of Milo O'Shea.

I mean, it's slightly got other connotations. The only Milo I can think of is the really irritating one in the Tweenies, I'm afraid. Yes, the Tweenies have ruined quite a lot of names because you can't help thinking, oh, flinch. Yeah. Well, I mean, my literary heroine

was Titty in Swallows and Amazons and you don't hear you don't get a lot of those around. But isn't it the case that Titty has been sort of renamed for later incarnations? Yes, well she's have to be. I can't actually read Mansfield Park because I'm sorry, I'm a grown up and I'm extremely highbrow but I can't really

cope with Fanny. Well that's incredible what an appalling note to end this programme on. I know, I'm so sorry. Charlotte, thank you very much. Alex, thank you for being a good sport this morning. All the very best. Thank you.

It began with a plane crash five years ago and unravelled into one of the biggest scandals the world has ever seen. From BBC Radio 4, the conspiracy thriller returns for the final climactic series.

A plane, a brain, a tall building, the fabric of time they're all tracks leading to an ending tracks hear it from the very beginning you can listen to every series now on bbc signs i'm sarah 11 and for over a year i've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.